Goodell: The league has great facilities now, and the Bills have to keep up with that

[IlluminatusUIUC]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell: The league has great facilities now, and the Bills have to keep up with that</p>&mdash; Joe Buscaglia (@JoeBuscaglia) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeBuscaglia/status/739809850490658819">June 6, 2016</a></blockquote>
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The stadium con is about to get underway in Buffalo, prepare yourselves.

[Skooby]

Con ?? We have a POS stadium right now, it's awful. They made some improvements and dressed it up but it matches most of the neighboring areas, very dated. Terry spent $1.4 Billion, it's time to ante up & get something downtown.

[gebobs]

Please, not downtown.

[Skooby]

Please, not downtown.

Do you not think that the current revitalization was intended for that event to occur ? It's as plain as freaking day, make Buffalo great again.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Con ?? We have a POS stadium right now, it's awful. They made some improvements and dressed it up but it matches most of the neighboring areas, very dated. Terry spent $1.4 Billion, it's time to ante up & get something downtown.

Yes, con. They extract hundreds of millions of dollars in tax money for a stadium and then keep the profits. If Pegula and the NFL want a brand new stadium, they should pay for it themselves.

[gebobs]

Do you not think that the current revitalization was intended for that event to occur ? It's as plain as freaking day, make Buffalo great again.

I don't care. I don't want it right downtown.

[DraftBoy]

Yes, con. They extract hundreds of millions of dollars in tax money for a stadium and then keep the profits. If Pegula and the NFL want a brand new stadium, they should pay for it themselves.

They also get the local officials to lie consistently about the true costs.

[OpIv37]

They also get the local officials to lie consistently about the true costs.

And the supposed benefits. Politicians always talk about the big local economic gains that stadiums/arenas are supposed to bring, but after the initial construction, it's usually ends up being a fraction of what is promised.

[OpIv37]

Con ?? We have a POS stadium right now, it's awful. They made some improvements and dressed it up but it matches most of the neighboring areas, very dated. Terry spent $1.4 Billion, it's time to ante up & get something downtown.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the Ralph is a great stadium if you want to watch a football game. It lacks the amenities that appeal to the more casual fans: fancy food, lounges, luxury boxes, etc. But the real fans already come out to games. The NFL is looking for something that will make the casual fans show up on a 15 degree mid-December day when the team is 2-11. So,they want the taxpayers to shell out so they can make more money.

[DraftBoy]

And the supposed benefits. Politicians always talk about the big local economic gains that stadiums/arenas are supposed to bring, but after the initial construction, it's usually ends up being a fraction of what is promised.

The problem I have with the economic benefits is two pronged:
1. We only ever talk about the short-term benefits and forget that those are often only temporary
2. At the rate we're replacing stadiums now there really isn't a ton of time for a strong economic current to redevelop a struggling area, short of gentrifying the entire area (See Atlanta - Vine City).

[BLeonard]

Goodell can say whatever he wants, doesn't really matter. When and if the Pegulas want a new stadium, it'll happen, not before. The threat to move the team is gone. Apparently, Roger didn't get the memo.

Someone should ask him, if he's so concerned about stadiums, why did they nix the Chargers/Raiders plan and send BOTH of those teams back to their respective ****holes for 2016?

-Bill

[YardRat]

**** Goodell and everything New England.

Also, if you think stadiums don't have a decent economic impact, watch what happens to all of the small shops surrounding the stadium, and OP in general, when the new digs get built downtown.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the Ralph is a great stadium if you want to watch a football game. It lacks the amenities that appeal to the more casual fans: fancy food, lounges, luxury boxes, etc. But the real fans already come out to games. The NFL is looking for something that will make the casual fans show up on a 15 degree mid-December day when the team is 2-11. So,they want the taxpayers to shell out so they can make more money.

Which sucks because that nonsense costs money. New stadiums are costing over a billion dollars, with rumors of the LA's new stadium to top $2 billion. F that noise. I'd like to have a new, blue collar stadium that was made for fans who want to watch football. I don't care about having the biggest jumbotron ever, or an in-stadium starbucks with Wi-Fi. Give me a seat and a beer, and let me watch some football.

Is it unreasonable to ask for an outdoor stadium to cost $500-700 million? Lucas Oil Stadium cost $720 million in 2008. The Ralph cost $22 million in 1973, which adjusted for inflation is $118 million today.

[Skooby]

Yes, con. They extract hundreds of millions of dollars in tax money for a stadium and then keep the profits. If Pegula and the NFL want a brand new stadium, they should pay for it themselves.

What's it to you, you live in California. Are you like a hero for the local masses ? What if the state related benefits come into play and they get a 10 year tax diversion for helping create new jobs / businesses ?? I can see a major commercial event surrounding this as well, including but not limited to tying in the trains.

Have you ever been to Orlando's basketball venue and road the mass transit systems they have there ?? You might get am idea how cool it is, it's actually pretty nice.

- - - Updated - - -


They also get the local officials to lie consistently about the true costs.

Cost out of your pocket ?? $0 ?? So what's it to you ?

[Skooby]

**** Goodell and everything New England.

Also, if you think stadiums don't have a decent economic impact, watch what happens to all of the small shops surrounding the stadium, and OP in general, when the new digs get built downtown.

Pegged. It'll revitalize the downtown in a huge way, see Pittsburgh's waterfront stadium and the following there. Money comes back there from around the world to see their Steelers play & have comfortable surroundings to enjoy the town. Not the current ancient Rat hole we have at the Ralph in the middle of nowhere, there's no real incentive for fans to come back to that dump. Build a beautiful waterfront setup with the proper amount of commercial space, then you'll have new conventions and all kind of business showing up. Notice how the hockey arena is attracting all types of new business ? Multiple that times 5 with an NFL stadium.

Everyone debating a waterfront stadium has some other skin in the game for themselves, it won't stop the stadium from happening as well. It's amazing how short-sighted Bills fans are, including but not limited to hosting superbowls. Build a new monster and bring in real money from all around the world, I'd venture to say that some of the $ might stick in a bigger way.

[sukie]

Pittsburgh already had a stadium at that location or close to it. They now have a baseball only stadium. So to say there was a major business impact because of 2 shiny new stadiums is kinda silly.

How would it be any better than one stadium? Same number of total games played same area.

[Skooby]

Pittsburgh already had a stadium at that location or close to it. They now have a baseball only stadium. So to say there was a major business impact because of 2 shiny new stadiums is kinda silly.

How would it be any better than one stadium? Same number of total games played same area.

How about conventions / superbowls from all the commercial space ?? Gambling / casino / the Falls / beautiful winters all in the area. The fixed up the BUF airport, use it and all the runways for a good reason. Between that and the NIA airport, we could do a good job of getting people in and out.

[gebobs]

Notice how the hockey arena is attracting all types of new business ? Multiple that times 5 with an NFL stadium.

How does it get 5x? The Ralph can expect about 600k guests annually from football. How many more otherwise? The Sabres draw over 750k and the arena is going to get far more usage than the stadium for other events.

[gebobs]

How about conventions

How about them?


superbowls

Unless Buffalo builds about 20 more high end hotels, not gonna happen.

[sukie]

I always enjoy the highway drive into downtown Buffalo whenever I am in town (sarc). Cannot imagine the traffic the leaves the Ralph all over the downtown.

[Skooby]

How about them?


Unless Buffalo builds about 20 more high end hotels, not gonna happen.

So you think they won't tie a whole new group of hotels to a new downtown stadium ?? Are you really this out of touch ? You have all new high-rise hotels that are dozens of stories high with indoor pools and facilities for conventions / events. It's par for the course to do this and utilize all-new attached parking garages that are self-contained facilities, including but not limited to tailgating.

It's already in the cards and will happen sooner than later, all utilizing NY's tax incentives for a decade (plus whatever else they can workout). I personally assure you that this will come about sooner than you think, just wait.

[gebobs]

No to downtown and doubly no to the waterfront. The waterfront should be revitalized for the use of all Buffalonians and visitors, not just the eight days each year that a few tens of thousands football fans get piss drunk and urinate publicly.

[sukie]

So you think they won't tie a whole new group of hotels to a new downtown stadium ?? Are you really this out of touch ? You have all new high-rise hotels that are dozens of stories high with indoor pools and facilities for conventions / events. It's par for the course to do this and utilize all-new attached parking garages that are self-contained facilities, including but not limited to tailgating.

It's already in the cards and will happen sooner than later, all utilizing NY's tax incentives for a decade (plus whatever else they can workout). I personally assure you that this will come about sooner than you think, just wait.

I believe gebobs was referring to hotels above Courtyard by Marriott standards.

[gebobs]

So you think they won't tie a whole new group of hotels to a new downtown stadium ?? Are you really this out of touch ? You have all new high-rise hotels that are dozens of stories high with indoor pools and facilities for conventions / events. It's par for the course to do this and utilize all-new attached parking garages that are self-contained facilities, including but not limited to tailgating.

It's already in the cards and will happen sooner than later, all utilizing NY's tax incentives for a decade (plus whatever else they can workout). I personally assure you that this will come about sooner than you think, just wait.

LOL...look where Super Bowls are going. They aren't going to cities like Buffalo, hate to break it to you, and never will. Buffalo is small potatoes just to have a franchise. They are off the radar completely as far as the league's marquee event. If they ever submit a bid, it will be met with laughter.

Buffalo should be satisfied with an NHL draft, the odd NHL All-Star game, a World Junior Hockey championship, or perhaps even an NCAA Frozen Four. Super Bowls are a whole 'nutha level.

The only thing Buffalo has going for it as far as Super Bowls is that the league has little to worry that the home team will be playing.

[DetDannyWilliams]

http://www.buffalonews.com/storyimage/BN/20160604/CITYANDREGION/160609644/AR/0/AR-160609644.jpg&maxW=602&maxH=602&AlignV=top&Q=80

The Urban Land Institute suggested a few years ago that the community “partner” in the building’s revival with a huge subsidy. That notion landed with a thud. The CEO of Ciminelli Development thinks any tax dollars would be better spent on a wrecking ball.
“To me, demo it for $20 million and put out [development] proposals for a great, open site,” Ciminelli said. “You could do something exceptional there.”

It looks like it was birthed by a mammoth waffle iron. It’s hardly unique – the same uninspiring mold stamped out a multitude of similarly cross-hatched ’70s buildings. Its perimeter is infuriatingly anti-urban – a square block walled off from its surroundings, like a castle designed to keep out the infidels. The building is part of an architectural era aptly known as “brutalism.” If we’re lucky, the tower – in a two-for-one demo deal – will take out the Skyway on the way down.
One thing is certain: The huge empty building is an embarrassment. It stands at the foot of Main Street like a giant exclamation counterpoint to downtown’s rebirth and Canalside’s development. As long as its lights are out – and the nearby 19-story Statler’s cup remains 9/10ths empty – downtown’s revival comes with a huge asterisk.

“They’re testing the market, and finding out there is no market,” said developer Rocco Termini, who counts the 1904 Hotel @ The Lafayette among his downtown resurrections. “The smart money is not going for that building. There’s so much space to fill.”

http://www.buffalonews.com/columns/donn-esmonde/wrecking-ball-may-be-best-option-for-one-seneca-tower-20160604

[gebobs]

Yeah...implode that piece of crap. What's your point?

[OpIv37]

The problem I have with the economic benefits is two pronged:
1. We only ever talk about the short-term benefits and forget that those are often only temporary
2. At the rate we're replacing stadiums now there really isn't a ton of time for a strong economic current to redevelop a struggling area, short of gentrifying the entire area (See Atlanta - Vine City).
Same thing happened in SE DC with Nats Park. Southeast was a notoriously bad area- the only reason to go down there before the stadium was a legendary concert venue called Nation. They tore it down to build the stadium, and replaced most of the decrepit housing with luxury condos and office buildings.

But the worst part was the timing. All of this start d right before the economic crash in 08, so development halted for a long time. There are still only a couple of restaurants/ bars near the park to get food or drinks before/after a game.

Oh, and they didn't really solve the crime or poverty problems. All the poor people and hood rats just moved to Prince George's county, MD or a neighborhood in Northeast called Trinidad. DC is notorious for cleaning up one area to the detriment of another.

[cookie G]

Pegged. It'll revitalize the downtown in a huge way, see Pittsburgh's waterfront stadium and the following there. Money comes back there from around the world to see their Steelers play & have comfortable surroundings to enjoy the town. Not the current ancient Rat hole we have at the Ralph in the middle of nowhere, there's no real incentive for fans to come back to that dump. Build a beautiful waterfront setup with the proper amount of commercial space, then you'll have new conventions and all kind of business showing up. Notice how the hockey arena is attracting all types of new business ? Multiple that times 5 with an NFL stadium.

Everyone debating a waterfront stadium has some other skin in the game for themselves, it won't stop the stadium from happening as well. It's amazing how short-sighted Bills fans are, including but not limited to hosting superbowls. Build a new monster and bring in real money from all around the world, I'd venture to say that some of the $ might stick in a bigger way.


Ask St. Louis'ers...(St. Louisites?)

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2016/02/03/10550/st-louis-wants-to-expand-convention-center-after-losing-nfl-because-that-worked-so-well-the-last-time/

Armed with consultant studies that promised a big boost in convention activity from what was supposed to be the country’s fourth biggest convention center, the city, county and state governments plopped down $240 million for a dome that still didn’t have a football tenant. More consultant studies said that what St. Louis really needed was a 1,000-room hotel next door to the new America’s Center complex. The head of the Convention and Visitors Commission in 1999 forecast that a new hotel would boost major conventions from 33 in 1998 to 56 in 2004, with hotel room nights almost doubling, to 800,000 a year. Mayor Clarence Harmon pressed the case for state aid for the hotel as “the foundation of our efforts to revitalize downtown and its is a cornerstone of our overall economic development strategy in the City of St. Louis.”

The new $277 million, 1,081-room Renaissance Grand Hotel opened in 2003 and immediately floundered, with occupancy and rates well below consultant forecasts. Beyond the problem of opening in the wake of 9/11, the hotel never spurred the predicted convention boom. By 2006, there weren’t 54 major conventions, but just 32. And the total continued to sink, so that 2008 saw just 438,000 convention room nights, a bit less than the 800,000 promised. With no new convention business, the hotel proved a total dud, and bondholders foreclosed on it in 2009, finally selling it for a third of debt. The story of the city’s convention business is still the same — 26 major conventions in 2014 and 425,411 room nights in 2014, almost exactly the same as the figures for 1997 and 1998.

[Skooby]

Ask St. Louis'ers...(St. Louisites?)

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2016/02/03/10550/st-louis-wants-to-expand-convention-center-after-losing-nfl-because-that-worked-so-well-the-last-time/

Armed with consultant studies that promised a big boost in convention activity from what was supposed to be the country’s fourth biggest convention center, the city, county and state governments plopped down $240 million for a dome that still didn’t have a football tenant. More consultant studies said that what St. Louis really needed was a 1,000-room hotel next door to the new America’s Center complex. The head of the Convention and Visitors Commission in 1999 forecast that a new hotel would boost major conventions from 33 in 1998 to 56 in 2004, with hotel room nights almost doubling, to 800,000 a year. Mayor Clarence Harmon pressed the case for state aid for the hotel as “the foundation of our efforts to revitalize downtown and its is a cornerstone of our overall economic development strategy in the City of St. Louis.”

The new $277 million, 1,081-room Renaissance Grand Hotel opened in 2003 and immediately floundered, with occupancy and rates well below consultant forecasts. Beyond the problem of opening in the wake of 9/11, the hotel never spurred the predicted convention boom. By 2006, there weren’t 54 major conventions, but just 32. And the total continued to sink, so that 2008 saw just 438,000 convention room nights, a bit less than the 800,000 promised. With no new convention business, the hotel proved a total dud, and bondholders foreclosed on it in 2009, finally selling it for a third of debt. The story of the city’s convention business is still the same — 26 major conventions in 2014 and 425,411 room nights in 2014, almost exactly the same as the figures for 1997 and 1998.

You ever been there ?? It makes Buffalo look like Beverly Hills, just terrible. If you take a cab ride through different parts of that town, the cabbies will act like they need a fare & tell you to duck your head. Yeah it's that bad, so try again.

[stuckincincy]

You ever been there ?? It makes Buffalo look like Beverly Hills, just terrible. If you take a cab ride through different parts of that town, the cabbies will act like they need a fare & tell you to duck your head. Yeah it's that bad, so try again.

Are you filling sandbags tonight?

[Skooby]

Are you filling sandbags tonight?
https://weather.com/weather/radar/interactive/l/34119:4:US?animation=true&layer=radarConus&zoom=8

Beautiful outside tonight, I wear flip flops everyday / 365 days a year.

[DraftBoy]

You ever been there ?? It makes Buffalo look like Beverly Hills, just terrible. If you take a cab ride through different parts of that town, the cabbies will act like they need a fare & tell you to duck your head. Yeah it's that bad, so try again.

To St. Louis? Yes, multiple times, and taken cab rides, never once had the experience you're attempting to paint.

[DraftBoy]

Same thing happened in SE DC with Nats Park. Southeast was a notoriously bad area- the only reason to go down there before the stadium was a legendary concert venue called Nation. They tore it down to build the stadium, and replaced most of the decrepit housing with luxury condos and office buildings.

But the worst part was the timing. All of this start d right before the economic crash in 08, so development halted for a long time. There are still only a couple of restaurants/ bars near the park to get food or drinks before/after a game.

Oh, and they didn't really solve the crime or poverty problems. All the poor people and hood rats just moved to Prince George's county, MD or a neighborhood in Northeast called Trinidad. DC is notorious for cleaning up one area to the detriment of another.

Revitalization doesn't happen over night and it's not dependent on a large injection of immediate cash. The most successful revitalization projects are smaller commitments of cash over a longer period of time. Tearing it down and rebuilding it all in 18-24 months solves nothing but forcing people to relocate to other areas which doesn't solve the problem it just makes it move.

[Historian]

Relax everybody.

I think Goodell made an off the cuff remark at a golf tournament, and everybody's acting like it's the Talmud.

Will there be a new stadium here? Yes.

Is it going to happen as quickly as the the Greedy Club would like? No.

Here's what I don't understand, and to me shows the league's bias against Buffalo.

We put 130 million into a stadium at the drop of a hat, make some nice improvements, and yet the league keeps clamoring "Buffalo needs a new stadium to compete!"

The Bears remodel their stadium from 1920, and everybody swoons.

The Packers add luxury boxes to 59,000 seat Lambeau Field, and the owners are giddy.

Pro Player Stadium gets a small facelift, they immediately are awarded a Super Bowl.

I never hear about Arrowhead being "inadequate". (basically the same stadium)

Or anyone making an issue about the Jags and Raiders covering up thousands of seats.

Only Buffalo

Can anybody explain that to me?

[Bill Cody]

Goodell is a terrible commissioner, 30m assclown. Buffalo needs to do what's right for Buffalo. The main reason I support a new stadium is it will further cement the Bills future in Buffalo, not because I give a damn about amenities or buy in to the economic development hype.

[cookie G]

You ever been there ?? It makes Buffalo look like Beverly Hills, just terrible. If you take a cab ride through different parts of that town, the cabbies will act like they need a fare & tell you to duck your head. Yeah it's that bad, so try again.

Yep, I have.

Driven through it, driven around it, stayed there, walked through downtown, even had dinner at the base of the Gateway Arch at 9 pm on a Friday night (it has an elevator that goes all the way to the top!).

So what's your point?

That St. Louis' crime rate kept conventions away, but Buffalo's top 10 ranking in violent crimes won't have any effect?

mhmmm

But I do wish you luck in building your obtaining financing for your new $300 million hi-rise hotel adjacent to a stadium that will be filled 8 times per year.

[gebobs]

In this case, I think his comments were precipitated by the venue and the event. He's also pimping for new stadiums in Oakland and San Diego. Of the next six Super Bowl sites, four are new builds (Santa Clara, Minneapolis, Atlanta, Inglewood) while Houston's was built in '02 and just went through a makeover. Losing bids were generally old stadiums and the cities were gently prodded to build anew.

Soldier and Lambeau get passes for being league historical icons.

[Skooby]

Yep, I have.

Driven through it, driven around it, stayed there, walked through downtown, even had dinner at the base of the Gateway Arch at 9 pm on a Friday night (it has an elevator that goes all the way to the top!).

So what's your point?

That St. Louis' crime rate kept conventions away, but Buffalo's top 10 ranking in violent crimes won't have any effect?

mhmmm

But I do wish you luck in building your obtaining financing for your new $300 million hi-rise hotel adjacent to a stadium that will be filled 8 times per year.

Good for you man, here's something to swallow:

http://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2015/10/01/st-louis-has-the-highest-murder-rate-in-the-nation


(Note the stay safe people warning ?? )

I also know a musician that has traveled the world playing Irish folk music, he said he's never been so scared ever than taking a simple cab ride there. This is a rock solid dude, so that's really saying something.

How about this ?? How can we stop the bloodshed ?:
http://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlouis/in-2015-st-louis-is-headed-toward-the-most-homicides-in-decades-how-can-we-stop-the-bloodshed/Content?oid=3026292


Folks, please get your heads out of your arses. It's actually kind of embarrassing.

[gebobs]

Buffalo ain't no St. Louis, but it's no Disneyland either. In '14, of cities with population greater than 250k, Buff ranked 11th in violent crime, 6th in murder, 13th in robbery, 13th in assault, and 11th in burglary.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

What's it to you, you live in California. Are you like a hero for the local masses ? What if the state related benefits come into play and they get a 10 year tax diversion for helping create new jobs / businesses ?? I can see a major commercial event surrounding this as well, including but not limited to tying in the trains.

Cost out of your pocket ?? $0 ?? So what's it to you ?

A con is a con and I can have an opinion about it even if I don't fall for it.

As for the "helping new jobs and businesses", Yardrat pointed out the flaw in that.

**** Goodell and everything New England.

Also, if you think stadiums don't have a decent economic impact, watch what happens to all of the small shops surrounding the stadium, and OP in general, when the new digs get built downtown.

All the stadium does is relocate that economic activity from elsewhere in the city. People aren't going to suddenly have more money in their entertainment budgets. And if your goal is to revitalize one neighborhood, then you can use the tax dollars to accomplish that directly and much more effectively.

[Mr. Pink]

No to downtown and doubly no to the waterfront. The waterfront should be revitalized for the use of all Buffalonians and visitors, not just the eight days each year that a few tens of thousands football fans get piss drunk and urinate publicly.

I dunno, Cleveland developed their waterfront area and put a stadium on it.

A 65ish thousand seat stadium won't take up the entire waterfront.

Besides, it's not like Buffalo is doing anything with it anyway.

[gebobs]

All the stadium does is relocate that economic activity from elsewhere in the city. People aren't going to suddenly have more money in their entertainment budgets. And if your goal is to revitalize one neighborhood, then you can use the tax dollars to accomplish that directly and much more effectively.
In this respect, relocating to a stadium closer to the city center is probably not a zero sum, right? In my experience when I go to Bills games, we pay for parking and a couple of beers at the stadium. I've never so much as given a nickel to any of the surrounding businesses.

[Mr. Pink]

A con is a con and I can have an opinion about it even if I don't fall for it.

As for the "helping new jobs and businesses", Yardrat pointed out the flaw in that.


All the stadium does is relocate that economic activity from elsewhere in the city. People aren't going to suddenly have more money in their entertainment budgets. And if your goal is to revitalize one neighborhood, then you can use the tax dollars to accomplish that directly and much more effectively.

Well, tbh, a new stadium downtown will bring more business downtown for 8 Sundays a year.

That 65ish thousand people weren't coming into downtown Buffalo for those 8 days a year before.

It won't do really much of anything beyond that.

[more cowbell]

Good for you man, here's something to swallow:

http://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2015/10/01/st-louis-has-the-highest-murder-rate-in-the-nation


(Note the stay safe people warning ?? )

I also know a musician that has traveled the world playing Irish folk music, he said he's never been so scared ever than taking a simple cab ride there. This is a rock solid dude, so that's really saying something.

How about this ?? How can we stop the bloodshed ?:
http://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlouis/in-2015-st-louis-is-headed-toward-the-most-homicides-in-decades-how-can-we-stop-the-bloodshed/Content?oid=3026292


Folks, please get your heads out of your arses. It's actually kind of embarrassing.




Dude there is no way in hell St. Louis is worse than Buffalo. Been there many times, and while it's not a massive metropolitan city, they have Fortune 500 companies, with many high end restaurants and high class hotels downtown. A large airport which has more than one terminal and 25 gates and 2 restaurants (like ours), a unique attraction with the Gateway Arch, a new MLB baseball stadium with plenty of cool bars and local spots to hang before and after.

Buffalo has a Marriott with 2 semi-pro (at best) hockey rinks and a parking garage attached to it, and about 4 cool bars/restaurants within walking distance from the "Revitalized Area" ...and a collection of concrete buildings which are mostly vacant.

While it's certainly better downtown now than it was 5 years ago, it still doesn't compare to any large city in the country. It's simply not good enough.

With that being said I 100% do agree that a new stadium needs to be downtown, and it would definitely help to attract people down there (especially if it was a dome and could be multi-use facility) - The Ralph is an utter embarrassment for an NFL stadium, and outside of San Diego and Oakland (which are going to be replaced within the next few years most likely) it is the absolute worst facility in the league.

[DetDannyWilliams]

Jan 6th article Jacobs are on record of saying that they want to help build the new stadium

http://www.buffalonews.com/business/were-interested-in-playing-a-role-in-downtown-bills-stadium-jacobs-family-says-20150106<strike></strike>

[gebobs]

I dunno, Cleveland developed their waterfront area and put a stadium on it.

A 65ish thousand seat stadium won't take up the entire waterfront.

Besides, it's not like Buffalo is doing anything with it anyway.

I'm not to keen on doing anything because Cleveland did it. Nor am I keen on paving the waterfront over with parking lots just because the city doesn't have the forethought to develop green space which I think would have a more positive impact on a city and the standard of living for all its residents.

My opinion to be sure. I bet the thieves get their way.

[Mr. Pink]

I'm not to keen on doing anything because Cleveland did it. Nor am I keen on paving the waterfront over with parking lots just because the city doesn't have the forethought to develop green space which I think would have a more positive impact on a city and the standard of living for all its residents.

Cleveland was just an easy example of a city that put up a stadium on the waterfront while putting other stuff on the waterfront as well. No more, no less.

It could be done here as well, but I'm not sure if Buffalo even wants to develop their waterfront to be frankly honest.

[Albany,n.y.]

OK, which one of you Ralph Wilson stadium lovers got so PO'd at Goodell that you hacked into the NFL's Twitter account & said he died?

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/07/news/nfl-roger-goodell-dead-hack-twitter/index.html

The league's Twitter account was hacked on Tuesday with a message saying, "We regret to inform our fans that our commissioner, Roger Goodell, has passed away. He was 57."
Related: Roger Goodell's pay is cut to $34 million
The NFL confirmed that its account had been hacked and that Goodell is alive and well.
Goodell has been commissioner of the league since 2006.
The message about his passing was quickly deleted, but the hacker continued to toy with the account, sending more tweets mocking the NFL.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

In this respect, relocating to a stadium closer to the city center is probably not a zero sum, right? In my experience when I go to Bills games, we pay for parking and a couple of beers at the stadium. I've never so much as given a nickel to any of the surrounding businesses.

I'm not sure what you're driving at. Are you saying you would spend money at the new stadium location if it was downtown? If so, that's great for the owners of downtown businesses but your budget is still your budget. What would you give up in order to have dinner downtown after a Bills game?

[TacklingDummy]

This was why I was against putting $130 million into the Ralph.
Use that money for a new stadium.
What a complete waste of money.

On a side note, while I was searching for article about how much money was wasted...I found this...

"Just as important, the agreement includes a provision that essentially locks the Bills in for the next seven seasons. The franchise would have to pay $400 million if it decides to leave before 2020. The team then has the option of buying out the remaining three years of the lease for $28 million."

So the Bills can buy out their lease next year?

[gebobs]

"Just as important, the agreement includes a provision that essentially locks the Bills in for the next seven seasons. The franchise would have to pay $400 million if it decides to leave before 2020. The team then has the option of buying out the remaining three years of the lease for $28 million."

So the Bills can buy out their lease next year?
Or this year, but $400M is a lot of cabbage.

[gebobs]

I'm not sure what you're driving at. Are you saying you would spend money at the new stadium location if it was downtown? If so, that's great for the owners of downtown businesses but your budget is still your budget. What would you give up in order to have dinner downtown after a Bills game?

Who goes by a budget that strictly? I sure don't. With more opportunities to spend, people are going to spend more. I spent more money before and after a Houston Astros game last year than I have in all the Bills games I have attended in OP put together. What's to spend money on in OP? How many people are going for wings at Big Tree Inn? How many rounds of beers are you going to buy after the big win with a 45 minute drive ahead as opposed to a ride on the rapid or an Uber? Or maybe stay the night in a hotel downtown as opposed to some rundown motor inn on Abbott Rd?

I would love to see a stadium in Buffalo, but not on the waterfront. I would even settle for downtown over that. Heck, level that disgusting casino and the Perry St. projects and there's your footprint.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Who goes by a budget that strictly? I sure don't. With more opportunities to spend, people are going to spend more. I spent more money before and after a Houston Astros game last year than I have in all the Bills games I have attended in OP put together. What's to spend money on in OP? How many people are going for wings at Big Tree Inn? How many rounds of beers are you going to buy after the big win with a 45 minute drive ahead as opposed to a ride on the rapid or an Uber? Or maybe stay the night in a hotel downtown as opposed to some rundown motor inn on Abbott Rd?

In the aggregate, everybody. Otherwise you can't pay your rent. Sure, you can spend money at those bars downtown, but again, this isn't generating new money for you. That money is coming from somewhere else in your life, usually by sacrificing beers and dinners on other nights at other places. I asked, what would you give up to have dinner downtown after a Bills game? What else are you not doing in return?

[sukie]

In the aggregate, everybody. Otherwise you can't pay your rent. Sure, you can spend money at those bars downtown, but again, this isn't generating new money for you. That money is coming from somewhere else in your life, usually by sacrificing beers and dinners on other nights at other places. I asked, what would you give up to have dinner downtown after a Bills game? What else are you not doing in return?

Everyone considers it either a game and the ancillary spending or rent? Really?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Everyone considers it either a game and the ancillary spending or rent? Really?

I didn't think this was a complicated point but it seems to be sailing over people. Lets say you make $1000. After basic expenses, rent, bills, savings, whatever, you're left with $100. If you're like Gebobs, you spend say $50 on a ticket and parking and nothing outside the stadium and have $50 left over. What are you going to spend that on? Maybe concert tickets, maybe dinner at a restaurant near your house on Friday night, whatever. That $50 is creating the economic benefit when you spend it.

The Bills build a new stadium. Now, instead of eating out on Friday night near your house, you're eating out on Sunday night near the Bills stadium. It's the same $50. You've just moved it from the street near your house to the street near your stadium. The bar owner near the field is happy, the concert hall owner and restaurant owner near gebob's house are not.

It will certainly improve the area around the stadium, but it's not any "new" economic activity. It's just concentrating it.

[gebobs]

In the aggregate, everybody. Otherwise you can't pay your rent. Sure, you can spend money at those bars downtown, but again, this isn't generating new money for you. That money is coming from somewhere else in your life, usually by sacrificing beers and dinners on other nights at other places. I asked, what would you give up to have dinner downtown after a Bills game? What else are you not doing in return?

I see your point. When developers tout the additional revenue such and such will bring, much of it is just diverted from other local purchases. Perhaps some folks will spend some of their entertainment money locally rather than take that big trip twice a year to the big city that has more entertainment options. Or might there be a velocity effect? Dunno.

[Mr. Pink]

I didn't think this was a complicated point but it seems to be sailing over people. Lets say you make $1000. After basic expenses, rent, bills, savings, whatever, you're left with $100. If you're like Gebobs, you spend say $50 on a ticket and parking and nothing outside the stadium and have $50 left over. What are you going to spend that on? Maybe concert tickets, maybe dinner at a restaurant near your house on Friday night, whatever. That $50 is creating the economic benefit when you spend it.

The Bills build a new stadium. Now, instead of eating out on Friday night near your house, you're eating out on Sunday night near the Bills stadium. It's the same $50. You've just moved it from the street near your house to the street near your stadium. The bar owner near the field is happy, the concert hall owner and restaurant owner near gebob's house are not.

It will certainly improve the area around the stadium, but it's not any "new" economic activity. It's just concentrating it.

Then you just bust out that shiny Mastercard and charge a night out at Pearl Street or an overnight at the Adams Mark or hell both. Why pay today, what you can pay for tomorrow!

As gebobs pointed out, there are much better entertainment choices downtown instead of in the middle of Orchard Park. Spending a few hours over at Pearl Street sounds much more appealing than spending 5 minutes at Big Tree Inn, just an example.

[Skooby]

Buffalo ain't no St. Louis, but it's no Disneyland either. In '14, of cities with population greater than 250k, Buff ranked 11th in violent crime, 6th in murder, 13th in robbery, 13th in assault, and 11th in burglary.

St. Louis was used as an example of how stadium's fail to help, I'm proposing that the local environment killed any chance of success even if they built a disneyland building.

[Skooby]

Dude there is no way in hell St. Louis is worse than Buffalo. Been there many times, and while it's not a massive metropolitan city, they have Fortune 500 companies, with many high end restaurants and high class hotels downtown. A large airport which has more than one terminal and 25 gates and 2 restaurants (like ours), a unique attraction with the Gateway Arch, a new MLB baseball stadium with plenty of cool bars and local spots to hang before and after.

Buffalo has a Marriott with 2 semi-pro (at best) hockey rinks and a parking garage attached to it, and about 4 cool bars/restaurants within walking distance from the "Revitalized Area" ...and a collection of concrete buildings which are mostly vacant.

While it's certainly better downtown now than it was 5 years ago, it still doesn't compare to any large city in the country. It's simply not good enough.

With that being said I 100% do agree that a new stadium needs to be downtown, and it would definitely help to attract people down there (especially if it was a dome and could be multi-use facility) - The Ralph is an utter embarrassment for an NFL stadium, and outside of San Diego and Oakland (which are going to be replaced within the next few years most likely) it is the absolute worst facility in the league.
Agreed, The Ralph is a dump & why in the world would someone so invested in downtown (like Pegula has) put money out in OP if he's putting his own money (whatever part it will end up at) into a new stadium ??

[gebobs]

St. Louis was used as an example of how stadium's fail to help, I'm proposing that the local environment killed any chance of success even if they built a disneyland building.

And I'm saying Buffalo isn't much better.

[Skooby]

And I'm saying Buffalo isn't much better.

Buffalo has a bad weather rap, not a murder capital of the US rap. Pretty big difference there, snow won't kill you (Usually).

[Mr. Pink]

Buffalo has a bad weather rap, not a murder capital of the US rap. Pretty big difference there, snow won't kill you (Usually).

And a bad taxation and corrupt politician and city still stuck in the glory of the rust belt days rap.

Hell, they should just tear down the entire old Bethlehem Steel complex and just put the stadium there.

[Skooby]

And a bad taxation and corrupt politician and city still stuck in the glory of the rust belt days rap.

Hell, they should just tear down the entire old Bethlehem Steel complex and just put the stadium there.

There's going to be major tax incentives and all the normal taxation (including chairs ...just about everything) will be untaxed including at least a decade tax free plus other concessions I won't go into. A relative of mine just built a brand new building and got all that done plus 10 years no tax, this is going to be drastically bigger.

[gebobs]

Buffalo has a bad weather rap, not a murder capital of the US rap. Pretty big difference there, snow won't kill you (Usually).

Did you miss all the stats I posted? Buffalo has one of the worst crime rates in the country.

[Turf]

Last place I want to be is on a train with a bunch of drunk fans carrying on and puking. I'll pass on the downtown thing unless they build new roads.

[TacklingDummy]

Or this year, but $400M is a lot of cabbage.
The article says only $28 million.

[Historian]

Anything downtown would have to have infrastructure improvements.

Its 45 minutes to get out of a lot after a sabres game.

[YardRat]

A con is a con and I can have an opinion about it even if I don't fall for it.

As for the "helping new jobs and businesses", Yardrat pointed out the flaw in that.


All the stadium does is relocate that economic activity from elsewhere in the city.

Economic impact is economic impact. Moving a team completely out of one city to another 'only' relocates the economic activity for both of them also...that's 'impact'.


People aren't going to suddenly have more money in their entertainment budgets. And if your goal is to revitalize one neighborhood, then you can use the tax dollars to accomplish that directly and much more effectively.

I'm fairly certain the current owners of properties around the OP stadium that get parking revenue 10 times per year will have less money in their entertainment budgets.

[gebobs]

The article says only $28 million.

I didn't read the article. I only read what you posted.


Just as important, the agreement includes a provision that essentially locks the Bills in for the next seven seasons. The franchise would have to pay $400 million if it decides to leave before 2020. The team then has the option of buying out the remaining three years of the lease for $28 million.

The way I read that is the buyout is $400M from 2016 to 2020 and $28M thereafter.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Economic impact is economic impact. Moving a team completely out of one city to another 'only' relocates the economic activity for both of them also...that's 'impact'.

I explained this point in subsequent posts. The Rams moving to Inglewood is going to hurt the bars around the Edward Jones Dome but benefit the ones in many other places in St. Louis. The same effect is going to happen in reverse in LA, as bar owners in Inglewood benefit and those in other neighborhoods suffer.


I'm fairly certain the current owners of properties around the OP stadium that get parking revenue 10 times per year will have less money in their entertainment budgets.

I'm sure they would, but are we down to the point where we are justifying the massive cost of stadiums by their benefits to parking lot owners of one neighborhood? That's awfully specific. Remember, the choice isn't between "Spend half a billion on a stadium" and "Pile it up and set it on fire." If your goal is to improve the economic fortunes of your citizens, there are much, much, much better ways to spend that money.

[Bill Cody]

I'm sure they would, but are we down to the point where we are justifying the massive cost of stadiums by their benefits to parking lot owners of one neighborhood? That's awfully specific. Remember, the choice isn't between "Spend half a billion on a stadium" and "Pile it up and set it on fire." If your goal is to improve the economic fortunes of your citizens, there are much, much, much better ways to spend that money.

Yeah but Roger said...

[TacklingDummy]

I didn't read the article. I only read what you posted.



The way I read that is the buyout is $400M from 2016 to 2020 and $28M thereafter.

10 years in length
Bills must pay a $400 million relocation penalty if they leave with one exception
Bills have a one-time option to leave after the seventh year without penalty
$130 million will be spent on stadium renovations
Bills will contribute $35 million to the renovations
State and county to split $95 million on renovations

The agreement includes a prohibitive relocation penalty. The Bills would have to pay $400 million if they leave during the first seven years of the lease. The penalty drops to $29 million for the remainder of the lease. That will quiet any talks about the franchise leaving until at least 2020.

3 years is not very long. Better plan on getting a new stadium soon.

[stuckincincy]

I explained this point in subsequent posts. The Rams moving to Inglewood is going to hurt the bars around the Edward Jones Dome but benefit the ones in many other places in St. Louis. The same effect is going to happen in reverse in LA, as bar owners in Inglewood benefit and those in other neighborhoods suffer.



I'm sure they would, but are we down to the point where we are justifying the massive cost of stadiums by their benefits to parking lot owners of one neighborhood? That's awfully specific. Remember, the choice isn't between "Spend half a billion on a stadium" and "Pile it up and set it on fire." If your goal is to improve the economic fortunes of your citizens, there are much, much, much better ways to spend that money.

Here is how these things work:

1. The local political machine quietly spreads the word to their monied faithful and their lawyers.
2. The faithful start to snap up this or that real property - often on the cheap - that will ultimately zoom in value.
3. The PR campaign begins...Progress! Prosperity! Jobs! Living Wage! Minority hiring!
4. The building trade unions get the machine to yak about Fair Wage! Apprenticeships! Prosperity! Minority hiring!
5. A panoply of tax abatements are spewed out, gobbled up by the insiders.
6. A sales tax increase is floated - but the cries ring loud, that the "poor" will be hurt.
7. A property tax increase is put forth. And put to the vote - with absolute confidence that their carefully-constructed voting bloc will vote yes because it's other people's money and they have lived on other people's money for generations.
8. Then issue bonds to build the more-or-less free place of business for an NFL owner.

[Skooby]

Here is how these things work:

1. The local political machine quietly spreads the word to their monied faithful and their lawyers.
2. The faithful start to snap up this or that real property - often on the cheap - that will ultimately zoom in value.
3. The PR campaign begins...Progress! Prosperity! Jobs! Living Wage! Minority hiring!
4. The building trade unions get the machine to yak about Fair Wage! Apprenticeships! Prosperity! Minority hiring!
5. A panoply of tax abatements are spewed out, gobbled up by the insiders.
6. A sales tax increase is floated - but the cries ring loud, that the "poor" will be hurt.
7. A property tax increase is put forth. And put to the vote - with absolute confidence that their carefully-constructed voting bloc will vote yes because it's other people's money and they have lived on other people's money for generations.
8. Then issue bonds to build the more-or-less free place of business for an NFL owner.

Where's the kickbacks ?? (Great list by the way).

[stuckincincy]

Where's the kickbacks ?? (Great list by the way).

Those details are taken care of during the "hosted" out-of state (or better yet - off-shore) fact-finding trips.

[stuckincincy]

Con ?? We have a POS stadium right now, it's awful. They made some improvements and dressed it up but it matches most of the neighboring areas, very dated. Terry spent $1.4 Billion, it's time to ante up & get something downtown.

You can ante up today. Put your personal check for a thousand bucks payable to the Bills into an envelope and mail it.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Here is how these things work:

1. The local political machine quietly spreads the word to their monied faithful and their lawyers.
2. The faithful start to snap up this or that real property - often on the cheap - that will ultimately zoom in value.
3. The PR campaign begins...Progress! Prosperity! Jobs! Living Wage! Minority hiring!
4. The building trade unions get the machine to yak about Fair Wage! Apprenticeships! Prosperity! Minority hiring!
5. A panoply of tax abatements are spewed out, gobbled up by the insiders.
6. A sales tax increase is floated - but the cries ring loud, that the "poor" will be hurt.
7. A property tax increase is put forth. And put to the vote - with absolute confidence that their carefully-constructed voting bloc will vote yes because it's other people's money and they have lived on other people's money for generations.
8. Then issue bonds to build the more-or-less free place of business for an NFL owner.

And that is how Kansas City got a downtown streetcar