Once Again, the Bills are IDIOTS!!!

[SpikedLemonade]

More On Taylor Terms: Ian Rapoport reports that Tyrod Taylor will make $9.5 Million this year instead of the $2 Million he would have received and a whopping $27.5 Million next year if the club doesn't take the $10 Million buyout. So this is definitely still a very important year for him and he is still to some extent betting on his level of play in 2016. Albert Breer reports teh same $9.5M this year and says it's $50M in the first three years then the Bills control from 2019-2021 at a total of $42M. It is $92M over 6; $90M over 5 years in new cash and $37M in injury guarantees. If option is picked up, $40.25M is fully guaranteed.



Taylor Signs Extension: It is official Tyrod Taylor will be a Bill for a long while. His agent tweeted it's a five year extension worth $92 Million and incentives could get it up to $115 Million but he quickly deleted the tweet. Reports say the incentives are hard to reach and say it's a six year deal worth $90 Million. Adam Schefter reports the team has a $10 Million buyout option after the first and second years of the deal to protect the club if he doesn't succeed. Sal Capaccio reports it's basically a year to year deal that is very flexible throughout for the club. In a conference call Doug Whaley said his impressive offseason, command he showed with the offense, convinced team he was worthy of extension. He also acknowledged the leader he has become. He also said they didn't want to be greedy and wanted to get the deal done. Whaley also said they will now turn their attention to Stephon Gilmore to get a deal done with him but acknowledged they also have the franchise tag available for him now that Taylor is locked up.



Taylor Deal Done? Josh Reed of WIVB is reporting that the Bills and Tyrod Taylorpretty much have a deal done on an extension and an announcement can come as early as today. Tim Graham of the Buffalo News reports that the Bills are all in on a six year deal and it is not a bridge deal that would protect them if Taylor doesn't end up being the franchise QB. The options and money of the upcoming deal are not known yet.

[bleve]

wut?

[OpIv37]

Wait, what? Taylor gets paid 27.5 mil next year, or is that his cap hit?

[jamze132]

No way would his cap hit be that high...

[Skooby]

Big drugs in play here.

[SpikedLemonade]

wut?

OK

Can you please phrase your question more specifically?

Please and thank you.

[SpikedLemonade]

No way would his cap hit be that high...


TRUE

What until the Dutchie gets a hold of you...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW5H62O47pw

- - - Updated - - -


Big drugs in play here.

BLOW ME

[Skooby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW5H62O47pw

- - - Updated - - -



BLOW ME

Maybe synthetic.

[YardRat]

I would bet teams like Denver, Houston, San Fran, Baltimore, Cinci etc are thinking 'Damn...I wish we would have thought of that'.

[GreedoII]

who effing cares...of he stinks buy him out with the 10 mil and your done. he's basically on a franchise tag deal this yr...so whatever...

[Buffalogic]

Salary next year is like 13 mil with the signing bonus making up the rest of the 27.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I like how people complained about Fitz's contract causing us to have $10 million in dead cap space when we cut him, but then don't see the problem with Tyrod potentially doing the exact same thing.

All the while, we could have done nothing, left his deal at $2 million this year, taken much less risk, and been better off.

[Forward_Lateral]

How is there anything to complain about, about this contract? It's very Bills friendly. Tyrod is an idiot for signing it, IMO.

[Joe Fo Sho]

How is there anything to complain about, about this contract? It's very Bills friendly. Tyrod is an idiot for signing it, IMO.

The only thing this contract protects against is Tyrod becoming a top tier QB. That's a problem I'd love the Bills to have, and one I'd be more than happy to deal with. Not to mention the incredibly small chance of it actually happening to the cursed Bills.

Doing nothing would have been a much better option. What if Tyrod tears his ACL in week 3, do you pick up the option next year and pay him $27 million?

[Ginger Vitis]

Wait, what? Taylor gets paid 27.5 mil next year, or is that his cap hit?

That is what he gets paid... It is not the cap hit though

[OpIv37]

who effing cares...of he stinks buy him out with the 10 mil and your done. he's basically on a franchise tag deal this yr...so whatever...

Actually it's a big deal. If Taylor's good, that cap number puts us in cap jail again next year. If he's only average, then the team has to decide whether to completely overpay him, or cut bait and start over on QB yet again (and eat $10 million in dead cap).

I'm not gonna freak out over this until I see a source with more details about what his cap it would be if they keep him, but if it's $27.5 mil, then this is a terrible contract.

[Ginger Vitis]

Actually it's a big deal. If Taylor's good, that cap number puts us in cap jail again next year.


They are not going into 2017 in cap jail...They currently are $14 million to $19 million under the cap for 2017 it depends on how much the cap goes up

[sahlensguy]

Actually it's a big deal. If Taylor's good, that cap number puts us in cap jail again next year. If he's only average, then the team has to decide whether to completely overpay him, or cut bait and start over on QB yet again (and eat $10 million in dead cap).

I'm not gonna freak out over this until I see a source with more details about what his cap it would be if they keep him, but if it's $27.5 mil, then this is a terrible contract.

Tough to believe he'll be a long term consistent playoff qb. Durability issues not withstanding and although he had a good qbr, Tyrod was poor in the red zone and terrible at the end of the halfs. Hardly winning football.

[OpIv37]

They are not going into 2017 in cap jail...They currently are $14 million to $19 million under the cap for 2017 it depends on how much the cap goes up

I certainly wouldn't call 14-19 mil "cap jail," but it's not a ton given that we have to re-sign or replace Gilmore. Hopefully they can free up some space with cuts or restructures.

[trapezeus]

its a sensible deal. you couldn't let him play at $3MM and have him perform well. because you would have killed any goodwill of resigning. so the bills have given him a long term deal that works as a bridge. if he remains a mid level qb or worse, you commit to him for one more year, but you keep looking. it bridges you to find the next qb. if cardale is ok, the $10MM in dead space isn't that awful because cardale will be cheap. but you need to keep looking to develop the position. thebills can't do what they did with fitz and just think they've cured the problem and stop looking.

[OpIv37]

How is there anything to complain about, about this contract? It's very Bills friendly. Tyrod is an idiot for signing it, IMO.
Someone explained this in another thread: if Tyrod sucks, he still made roughly $6 million more this season than he was scheduled to make on his original contract, plus he'll get the $10 million buyout. So, worst case scenario is that he'll have $16 million that he wouldn't have otherwise had. Even if his career is over, one can live out life very comfortably if that money is managed and invested properly.

If he doesn't suck, he gets $27.5 million next year.

It's hard to see how he loses.

[DesertFox24]

How is there anything to complain about, about this contract? It's very Bills friendly. Tyrod is an idiot for signing it, IMO.

Well he was signed for 1 million do not forget. Had he got hurt or stunk up the place he gets nothing.

Plus maybe he had some tom Brady in him and does no need to be highest paid and wants bills to spend money on team.

Maybe he has a point where ok that is more than enough.

[Joe Fo Sho]

its a sensible deal. you couldn't let him play at $3MM and have him perform well. because you would have killed any goodwill of resigning.

This is such a bogus argument. If he's that good, we offer him $17-$20 million per year and I'd bet he'd sign it. If he refuses, we can still franchise him. He'd probably be more willing to sign a long term deal if threatened with the tag/multiple tags.

Money talks, he'd get over it.

[Goobylal]

Wait, what? Taylor gets paid 27.5 mil next year, or is that his cap hit?

He gets $15.5M in an option bonus which is amortized over 5 years plus $12M in base salary for a cap hit of $15.1M.


I like how people complained about Fitz's contract causing us to have $10 million in dead cap space when we cut him, but then don't see the problem with Tyrod potentially doing the exact same thing.

All the while, we could have done nothing, left his deal at $2 million this year, taken much less risk, and been better off.

And if he has a good season, they either have to franchise him at $22M, which hamstrings them WRT signing/re-signing players, or lose him. And his pricetag skyrockets from $18M/year (now) to $22M/year. But there is no $10M buyout.

[casdhf]

If TT sucks this year, we have more to worry about that cap implications.

[Yasgur's Farm]

A better way to interpret his contract...

2016...
$9.5M salary guaranteed... Cap hit is $10.6M with misc. bonuses.

2017...
$12 salary non-guaranteed + $15.5M team option bonus... Cap hit is $15.2M with amortized option bonus and misc. bonuses.
or $10M buyout... Cap hit and dead money is $10.1M.

2018...
$13M salary non-guaranteed... Cap hit is $16.1M with amortized option bonus.
Or $10M buyout... Cap hit and dad money is $22.4M.

2019...
Terms yet to be disclosed.

So it's basically a 1 year, show us what you got contract... Big decision by the Bills will be March 2017 when the team option $15.5M bonus is paid or not.

[OpIv37]

That 2018 is scary- 22 million in dead cap?

[trapezeus]

This is such a bogus argument. If he's that good, we offer him $17-$20 million per year and I'd bet he'd sign it. If he refuses, we can still franchise him. He'd probably be more willing to sign a long term deal if threatened with the tag/multiple tags.

Money talks, he'd get over it.

if he has a great season, he has options. you ever leave a gig despite a match because you didn't like how you were treated

[Joe Fo Sho]

if he has a great season, he has options.

Did you forget about the franchise tag? That really limits his options, play for Buffalo or don't play.


you ever leave a gig despite a match because you didn't like how you were treated

I've never considered an employer honoring a contract that I signed as being mistreated.

[BertSquirtgum]

Bills brass are ******ed idiots

[Joe Fo Sho]

And if he has a good season, they either have to franchise him at $22M, which hamstrings them WRT signing/re-signing players, or lose him.

What a great problem to have!

Plus, it's only $7 million more than we'll be paying him now. That's nothing, right? I mean, if a $10 million dead cap hit is nothing, surely that $7 million is meaningless.


And his pricetag skyrockets from $18M/year (now) to $22M/year. But there is no $10M buyout.

How is his price $18 million now? He just signed for $15 million.

His value automatically becomes a top 3 QB in the NFL at $22 million? I don't see how you got there. He has a good season and he's as valuable as Aaron Rodgers and more valuable than Big Ben, Cam, Rivers, Brady, Brees, Eli, Wilson, and Ryan? I think $18 - $20 million is more reasonable.

[Joe Fo Sho]

If TT sucks this year, we have more to worry about that cap implications.

What if he doesn't suck, but he's just OK. Isn't that the most likely outcome for this season? What do we do then? Do we pay an OK quarterback $27 million next year?

We've handcuffed ourselves into this all-or-nothing type of deal, which is fine if Tyrod is terrible or great. It's an awful deal if he's just...meh.

[Skooby]

We have locked up our most valuable asset, I'm not sure why anyone is complaining about this at all. It isn't like we gave him $60 Million guaranteed immediately.

[Ginger Vitis]

What if he doesn't suck, but he's just OK. Isn't that the most likely outcome for this season? What do we do then? Do we pay an OK quarterback $27 million next year?



You and OPIV just don't get it... A few posters in the last 72 hours have tried to explain to the two of you that is where the "Ok QB" market is headed...

[Joe Fo Sho]

You and OPIV just don't get it... A few posters in the last 72 hours have tried to explain to the two of you that is where the "Ok QB" market is headed...

Well I'm glad you'd be happy being stuck with an OK quarterback for 6 years when we could have had twice as much information on him before signing him to a long term deal for free.

[Goobylal]

What a great problem to have!

Plus, it's only $7 million more than we'll be paying him now. That's nothing, right? I mean, if a $10 million dead cap hit is nothing, surely that $7 million is meaningless.

Again, there is no $10M buyout. They gave him a $7.5M pay increase this year in exchange for preventing him from hitting the market or needing to be franchised next year.


How is his price $18 million now? He just signed for $15 million.

His value automatically becomes a top 3 QB in the NFL at $22 million? I don't see how you got there. He has a good season and he's as valuable as Aaron Rodgers and more valuable than Big Ben, Cam, Rivers, Brady, Brees, Eli, Wilson, and Ryan? I think $18 - $20 million is more reasonable.

My bad. I had it in my mind that the average starting next year is $18(.333)M/year. But I looked at the numbers again and it's a 6-year $92M extension with $9.5M this year, so if you count this year, it's $15.333M/year, whereas if you start it next year (since they were going to get him to play for $2M this year under his original deal), it's $16.5M. That's far below what Osweiler and others got and even further below the franchise tag of $22M ([er year, which I'd expect would be what he'd want if he were franchised).

[bleve]

OK

Can you please phrase your question more specifically?

Please and thank you.

The Bills signed TT. The Bills are Idiots.

There's no explanation as to why you believe they're idiots.

Should they not have extended TT?
Did they pay too much?
Did they pay not enough?
Was it too soon?
Was it too late?
Should we have traded with SF to get Thad Lewis back before his unfortunate ACL tear?

You're preaching to the choir regarding the Bills FO, but I see the current TT deal as good deal. What specifically did they do in this deal to be "idiots"?

Thank you in advance for your well thought out response.

[SpikedLemonade]

The Bills signed TT. The Bills are Idiots.

There's no explanation as to why you believe they're idiots.

Should they not have extended TT?
Did they pay too much?
Did they pay not enough?
Was it too soon?
Was it too late?
Should we have traded with SF to get Thad Lewis back before his unfortunate ACL tear?

You're preaching to the choir regarding the Bills FO, but I see the current TT deal as good deal. What specifically did they do in this deal to be "idiots"?

Thank you in advance for your well thought out response.

I believe no contact was necessary at this time.

The Bills should have simply played their hand with TT to see how he does this year and then make the determination as to this value.

Instead the Bills once again panicked and prematurely ejaculated all over the collective faces of their fans.

I hope TT has a phenomenal season. I truly do. No one wants to win more than I do. Trust me on that one.

However, this regime smacks of incompetence once again.

TT deserves, like every professional athlete, to be paid market value. However, in TT's case, the value has NOT yet been determined.

Of course, the Bills Front Office once again illustrates that they believe they are smarter than the other NFL teams. They are NOT.

Another year of NOT making the play-offs. Yea!

[DraftBoy]

Actually it's a big deal. If Taylor's good, that cap number puts us in cap jail again next year.

No, it doesn't.

Have you even bothered to look at the cap situation for next year?

Even if the cap doesn't move at all, which it will, the Bills have $7 million under the cap with Tyrod's extension in place (cap hit of $15 million). They also have Kyle Williams with an $8 million number that only carries $1.5 million in dead cap, Dan Carpenter is at $2.9 million with a dead cap carry of $500K. They also have similar situations in Wood, Graham, Incognito, and Felton if they need even more room.

And that's all based on assuming the $155 million cap doesn't move, but most projections have it going up to between $166 and $170 which means the Bills have between $18 and $22 million dollars after the Tyrod option for next year.

You really need to take five seconds and do the basic arithmetic it takes before you continue to make these completely inaccurate claims. You're one of the most analytical fans on this board, but for whatever reason you've refused to show it with regard to the Bills cap situation and this contract.

[DraftBoy]

That 2018 is scary- 22 million in dead cap?

Taylor's Cap Hit breakout per Sportrac based on the terms that have been released:
2016 - $10.6
2017 - $15.2
2018 - $16.1

[SpikedLemonade]

Regardless, the contract is premature.

[DraftBoy]

Regardless, the contract is premature.

I can buy that argument, but you can't deny that if Taylor preforms then the contract is well below market-value moving forward.

It's a risk, but there is definitely a very clear reward as well.

Also I think we somewhat underselling the confidence that this will give the team that we finally have some long-term stability at QB.

[SpikedLemonade]

Too risky

[Joe Fo Sho]

I can buy that argument, but you can't deny that if Taylor preforms then the contract is well below market-value moving forward.

It's clearly a bargain for a franchise quarterback, that's for sure. The question is whether or not Tyrod is that type of QB. We would've had a much clearer picture of what he is after this season had we waited to extend him, and we could've done that for free with very little risk.

The only risk would've been if Tyrod became a top tier QB this season. What are the odds of that? Now we'll have the option to either cut him or pay him like a franchise QB. That's it, those are our 2 options. It's a good contract if he sucks or if he's good. It's a bad move if he's anywhere in between.


It's a risk, but there is definitely a very clear reward as well.

Is the risk worth the reward, though? We're risking a bunch of cap space/money to potentially save like $3 million per year. I don't see that as being worth it. I think the better play would've been to let him play this season, see what he's got, pay him accordingly next offseason/tag him if necessary.


Also I think we somewhat underselling the confidence that this will give the team that we finally have some long-term stability at QB.

Yeah, maybe.

[Goobylal]

Regardless, the contract is premature.

I was one of those that thought they should let him play out his existing deal and then take their chances. But I didn't think they could just give him a pay raise this year and get a below market deal afterwards. Not to mention there are no future cap implications if he stinks this year and they cut him. And they have cap room.

[trapezeus]

joe fo sho, nfl contracts aren't like regular contracts. both sides can get out of them. if you have performed well, there is an expectation that you may be exactly who is needed and your employer says, "keep making what you make, bear all the risk on performance, and we'll see how you do." do you enjoy working in that environment? if you have options after that year, many people look at the other option with all things being equal simply because they perceived it wasn't fair.

the deal is not egregious and shows a level of commitment with outs. there isn't much to dislike. and TT is a good guy and well liked. The team should see that a guy you like and puts team first gets some perks.

[Joe Fo Sho]

joe fo sho, nfl contracts aren't like regular contracts. both sides can get out of them. if you have performed well, there is an expectation that you may be exactly who is needed and your employer says, "keep making what you make, bear all the risk on performance, and we'll see how you do." do you enjoy working in that environment?

I wouldn't have signed the contract if I didn't like/want/need that type of environment.

It's hard to compare the environment of my job against NFL players', they're completely different. You can't ask me that question and expect a legitimate answer because my response would be that I'd do almost anything to make $2 million in 1 year.

Tyrod already had provisions in his contract where he could gain benefits for being the starter. For some reason those aren't good enough for him now. He's earned more money than he would have if he were a backup, he also was given the ability to void his 3rd year. If he wanted $9 million his 2nd year after starting in year 1, he should have demanded it before he signed his contract 1 year ago.

He signed with the Bills to have a chance at becoming the starter at QB. You could argue that the only reason he'd be worth $15 million per year is because of the opportunity Buffalo gave him. That's nothing to sneeze at. The Bills should at least be given credit for that in his mind.


the deal is not egregious and shows a level of commitment with outs. there isn't much to dislike.

There's some to dislike, though.


TT is a good guy and well liked. The team should see that a guy you like and puts team first gets some perks.

If that matters so much we should have kept Fitz.

[Goobylal]

And BTW, $16.5M/year, much less $15.333M/year, isn't franchise QB money. Not when guys like Osweiler, Bradford, Tannehill, and Alex Smith are making over $17M/year.

[DraftBoy]

It's clearly a bargain for a franchise quarterback, that's for sure. The question is whether or not Tyrod is that type of QB. We would've had a much clearer picture of what he is after this season had we waited to extend him, and we could've done that for free with very little risk.

We don't know that for sure, and I disagree that there is very little risk. If Taylor blows up this year without an extension he's looking for Top 10-15 QB money, right now he's locked in at #23. With Gilmore still to resign, taking the risk of locking Taylor up early only helps us to retain Gilmore as opposed to trying to negotiate two large FA contracts.


Now we'll have the option to either cut him or pay him like a franchise QB. That's it, those are our 2 options. It's a good contract if he sucks or if he's good. It's a bad move if he's anywhere in between.

How many franchise QB's can you name whose base salary contracts rank in the bottom 10 of the league? Acting like we're paying him as a franchise QB is an overstatement.


Is the risk worth the reward, though? We're risking a bunch of cap space/money to potentially save like $3 million per year. I don't see that as being worth it. I think the better play would've been to let him play this season, see what he's got, pay him accordingly next offseason/tag him if necessary.

How much cap space do you think we're risking? We had the money to spend this year and even if the cap doesn't move at all next year and we buyout Taylor then we have still have roughly $13 million free with plenty of options to take off other contracts and free up plenty of more money.

[Joe Fo Sho]

And BTW, $16.5M/year, much less $15.333M/year, isn't franchise QB money. Not when guys like Osweiler, Bradford, Tannehill, and Alex Smith are making over $17M/year.

None of those guys have 6 year deals, either.

[Joe Fo Sho]

We don't know that for sure, and I disagree that there is very little risk. If Taylor blows up this year without an extension he's looking for Top 10-15 QB money, right now he's locked in at #23.

This is the argument everyone uses, and it's kind of crap. First, it's so unlikely to happen that it's ridiculous to consider. Second, it would be the best problem the Bills have had in 20 years. Besides, bumping him up to 15th in money is only $1.5 million per year over the last 5 years of his deal. Big whoop.

I would love to be wrong about this contract.


With Gilmore still to resign, taking the risk of locking Taylor up early only helps us to retain Gilmore as opposed to trying to negotiate two large FA contracts.

Gilmore is still just a cornerback.


How many franchise QB's can you name whose base salary contracts rank in the bottom 10 of the league? Acting like we're paying him as a franchise QB is an overstatement.

Well, it depends on how you define a franchise QB. The Dolphins think Tannehill is their franchise QB, and most people laugh at them for it. To answer your question though, Andy Dalton.

To say Tyrod is a franchise QB is also an overstatement at this point.


How much cap space do you think we're risking? We had the money to spend this year and even if the cap doesn't move at all next year and we buyout Taylor then we have still have roughly $13 million free with plenty of options to take off other contracts and free up plenty of more money.

I saw your earlier post about how much money we could save if we cut Kyle, Carpenter, Wood, Incognito, and Felton. That's all well and good, except that you have to replace them with someone better and cheaper for it to be a good idea. I don't see how that can happen, except for Felton...who cares about that guy. Oh, plus we'd need a quarterback.

It's just not smart to risk dead cap space when you don't friggin' have to.

[Dr. Who]

Don't know if this was posted before; also, don't know how reliable Simon is. I don't live in Buffalo.
I think one ought to be able to take a measured stance on OBD here. Whatever risk is involved, it's not an utterly ridiculous, hence, idiotic move.

Howard WGR @hsimon62

as per a source, there is NO buyout clause for $10 million after this season in Tyrod's contract. Bills can walk away from rest of deal

[Goobylal]

This is the argument everyone uses, and it's kind of crap. First, it's so unlikely to happen that it's ridiculous to consider. Second, it would be the best problem the Bills have had in 20 years. Besides, bumping him up to 15th in money is only $1.5 million per year over the last 5 years of his deal. Big whoop.

I would love to be wrong about this contract.



Gilmore is still just a cornerback.



Well, it depends on how you define a franchise QB. The Dolphins think Tannehill is their franchise QB, and most people laugh at them for it. To answer your question though, Andy Dalton.

To say Tyrod is a franchise QB is also an overstatement at this point.



I saw your earlier post about how much money we could save if we cut Kyle, Carpenter, Wood, Incognito, and Felton. That's all well and good, except that you have to replace them with someone better and cheaper for it to be a good idea. I don't see how that can happen, except for Felton...who cares about that guy. Oh, plus we'd need a quarterback.

It's just not smart to risk dead cap space when you don't friggin' have to.

Not sure how you can be so confident the Tyrod will not blow up this season. That's just silly. And the contract pays him less than Andy Dalton, who signed his deal several years ago.

[Goobylal]

Don't know if this was posted before; also, don't know how reliable Simon is. I don't live in Buffalo.
I think one ought to be able to take a measured stance on OBD here. Whatever risk is involved, it's not an utterly ridiculous, hence, idiotic move.

Howard WGR @hsimon62

as per a source, there is NO buyout clause for $10 million after this season in Tyrod's contract. Bills can walk away from rest of deal

Yep, that's what I heard. Hopefully that puts it to rest finally.

[Dr. Who]

Yep, that's what I heard. Hopefully that puts it to rest finally.

Ought to and will are worlds apart. Some folks enjoy griping, even if it's irrational to do so.
And if you call them on it, 1999 . . . justifies anything and everything, apparently.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Not sure how you can be so confident the Tyrod will not blow up this season.

Being a Bills fan can have affect on a person.

[Bill Cody]

People that see TT as a potential franchise QB have to like this deal. People that see him as an injury prone midget that can't throw to the middle of the field and will never be good enough to win a SB won't. Just depends where you see him.

[Dr. Who]

People that see TT as a potential franchise QB have to like this deal. People that see him as an injury prone midget that can't throw to the middle of the field and will never be good enough to win a SB won't. Just depends where you see him.

Funny. I actually fall somewhere in-between. Who knows what the deal really is, there are so many variants offered.
Prudentially, I think you have to protect yourself as a franchise. I think OBD took a middle course.
If Simon's tweet is correct, it seems like a contract one can walk away from pretty easily.

[Goobylal]

Being a Bills fan can have affect on a person.

Fair enough. And apparently the Bills can release TT prior to the 3rd league day of 2017 with just a $2.85M cap hit. Feel better about the deal now?

[Goobylal]

People that see TT as a potential franchise QB have to like this deal. People that see him as an injury prone midget that can't throw to the middle of the field and will never be good enough to win a SB won't. Just depends where you see him.

Those who think he's injury prone are misguided. He missed 2 games last year after he got injured by a (now illegal) horse collar-like tackle (by recently added LB Zach Brown) in the Titans game.

[DraftBoy]

This is the argument everyone uses, and it's kind of crap. First, it's so unlikely to happen that it's ridiculous to consider. Second, it would be the best problem the Bills have had in 20 years. Besides, bumping him up to 15th in money is only $1.5 million per year over the last 5 years of his deal. Big whoop.

It's just as much crap to dismiss it. I'm utilizing a what if side of logic, while you're just dismissing the possibility of it even happening. Only $1.5? For somebody who is complaining about the numbers you seem awfully cavalier with another 1.5 on top of what he's getting, and that's assuming the market doesn't over inflate his numbers. He'd be a more highly sought after FA than Brock Osweiler. Who has cap numbers in the 20's in 18 and 19.


Gilmore is still just a cornerback.

And he is still your second best defender. Gotta bring him back.


Well, it depends on how you define a franchise QB. The Dolphins think Tannehill is their franchise QB, and most people laugh at them for it. To answer your question though, Andy Dalton.

To say Tyrod is a franchise QB is also an overstatement at this point.

To me, a franchise QB is a guy you can rely on to lead you into the post-season. Taylor hasn't proven that yet and either has Tannehill. Dalton's cap hit is higher than Taylor's for the record.


I saw your earlier post about how much money we could save if we cut Kyle, Carpenter, Wood, Incognito, and Felton. That's all well and good, except that you have to replace them with someone better and cheaper for it to be a good idea. I don't see how that can happen, except for Felton...who cares about that guy.

It's just not smart to risk dead cap space when you don't friggin' have to.

None of the guys I mentioned are elite level players who couldn't be replaced with a draft pick or a FA. Wood would be the biggest loss but I don't think he'd get cut, just likely restructured.

[trapezeus]

joe fo sho, (i can't respond to your thread or else i can't type my response without a lot of typo-s, so i apologize for not pulling your comments).

1. fair enough that you disklike some of it.

2. my point is historically coaches and qbs no one likes going into a lame duck session with these guys. TT has been a good guy, played better than expected and has a contract well below market. and he took that despite better cash offer from a team where he wouldn't have started. so we all got something out of that first deal. if you have no questions about his character, and the long term offer isn't, "osweiller got 18MM and 26Guaranteed, i want that." then the bills should listen and they did and found the middle ground. TT has givenup some moneyif he blows up. i don't think he will, but i think he has the potential to be better than he was last year. He also has the potential to be an injury prone gimmick that has been solved. we have 1to 2 years to figure that out and get out with costs that aren't too overbearing. keeping in mind we are trying to develop Cardale, if cardale can start a year or two, we havea cheap option. but the key to this contract is you have to keep the qb stable full. and that's something the bills never do and why we have the results we've had.

3. i don't think the bills would have cut fitz if buddy wasn't catfished. we knew what we had, it was good enough to keep looking and get a chance to squeak into the playoffs. but thebills bungled it and had a situation where they couldn't keep him.

4. to compare to ourselves is not a perfect match, but you operate in a world of good faith. if you feel like the team is offering you an improvement on goodfaith when they didn't have to, it shows they are committed to you. for a team to know the team has selected a person and rewarded him for his performance has to be good for the team. to keep operating under the "these contracts are just too expensive model" will continue to turn up 7-9 seasons. and for the record, i don't think the bills have a very good shot to be a playoff team this year, but my gripe with the team isn't this contract.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Fair enough. And apparently the Bills can release TT prior to the 3rd league day of 2017 with just a $2.85M cap hit. Feel better about the deal now?

Unless he gets hurt, in which case his $27.5MM salary is guaranteed, according to Mike Rodak.

Feel worse about the deal now?

[Joe Fo Sho]

Those who think he's injury prone are misguided. He missed 2 games last year after he got injured by a (now illegal) horse collar-like tackle (by recently added LB Zach Brown) in the Titans game.

It's not necessarily that Tyrod is injury prone. It's that historically, players of his size and willingness to run, are more apt to get injured.

[Joe Fo Sho]

It's just as much crap to dismiss it. I'm utilizing a what if side of logic, while you're just dismissing the possibility of it even happening. Only $1.5? For somebody who is complaining about the numbers you seem awfully cavalier with another 1.5 on top of what he's getting, and that's assuming the market doesn't over inflate his numbers.

$1.5MM is a lot different than $10MM. It's the dead cap that I've heard so much about.



He'd be a more highly sought after FA than Brock Osweiler.

The difference is that he wouldn't be a free agent. If he's worth it, you don't allow him to hit the market, pretty simple.


And he is still your second best defender. Gotta bring him back.

He's still secondary to taking care of the QB. We were fine when Clements and Greer left for their payday.


To me, a franchise QB is a guy you can rely on to lead you into the post-season. Taylor hasn't proven that yet and either has Tannehill.

That's one take on the definition of franchise QB.


Dalton's cap hit is higher than Taylor's for the record.

He's also proved 10 times more than Tyrod has.


None of the guys I mentioned are elite level players who couldn't be replaced with a draft pick or a FA. Wood would be the biggest loss but I don't think he'd get cut, just likely restructured.

You might be right. Although Incognito did earn a pro bowl spot. You'd still have to use draft picks on positions you wouldn't have had to previously.

[Joe Fo Sho]

joe fo sho, (i can't respond to your thread or else i can't type my response without a lot of typo-s, so i apologize for not pulling your comments).

No prob.


2. my point is historically coaches and qbs no one likes going into a lame duck session with these guys. TT has been a good guy, played better than expected and has a contract well below market. and he took that despite better cash offer from a team where he wouldn't have started. so we all got something out of that first deal. if you have no questions about his character, and the long term offer isn't, "osweiller got 18MM and 26Guaranteed, i want that." then the bills should listen and they did and found the middle ground. TT has givenup some moneyif he blows up. i don't think he will, but i think he has the potential to be better than he was last year. He also has the potential to be an injury prone gimmick that has been solved. we have 1to 2 years to figure that out and get out with costs that aren't too overbearing. keeping in mind we are trying to develop Cardale, if cardale can start a year or two, we havea cheap option. but the key to this contract is you have to keep the qb stable full. and that's something the bills never do and why we have the results we've had.

His salary in 2017 is guaranteed if he gets injured this year. How is that better than just leaving his contract as it was?


3. i don't think the bills would have cut fitz if buddy wasn't catfished. we knew what we had, it was good enough to keep looking and get a chance to squeak into the playoffs. but thebills bungled it and had a situation where they couldn't keep him.

I'm glad we got rid of Fitz. Great guy, turnover machine.


4. to compare to ourselves is not a perfect match, but you operate in a world of good faith. if you feel like the team is offering you an improvement on goodfaith when they didn't have to, it shows they are committed to you. for a team to know the team has selected a person and rewarded him for his performance has to be good for the team. to keep operating under the "these contracts are just too expensive model" will continue to turn up 7-9 seasons. and for the record, i don't think the bills have a very good shot to be a playoff team this year, but my gripe with the team isn't this contract.

Almost every other team seems to be able to keep the QB on their team that they've developed without too much pain. How come it's different for the Bills? The Redskins kept Cousins with the tag...he's not mad at them. Plenty of QB's have been franchise tagged and then signed to long term deals. Why is it so hard to think the Bills could have done the same thing?

It seems like the Bills are going out of their way to screw themselves over, it's fascinating.

[DraftBoy]

$1.5MM is a lot different than $10MM. It's the dead cap that I've heard so much about.

Which is still not a question.


The difference is that he wouldn't be a free agent. If he's worth it, you don't allow him to hit the market, pretty simple.

If you tell me that you don't have enough faith in me to renew my deal early then you're going to have to suffer the consequences of what the market will determine my price to be. That's a lot riskier of a proposal then this contract.


He's still secondary to taking care of the QB. We were fine when Clements and Greer left for their payday.

Ok and we just took care of our QB and now we can also keep our best DB. Losing Winfield still stings me for the record.


He's also proved 10 times more than Tyrod has.

Sure has which is why he has the bigger contract.



You might be right. Although Incognito did earn a pro bowl spot. You'd still have to use draft picks on positions you wouldn't have had to previously.

So did Taylor.

I would think the Bills are already in the market for a interior OL depth, a DT, and a K given the advanced age of the players I mentioned. So I don't agree with your second sentence there.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Which is still not a question.

Are you fine with the injury clause in his contract that guarantees his $27.5MM salary in 2017 if he gets hurt in 2016?


If you tell me that you don't have enough faith in me to renew my deal early then you're going to have to suffer the consequences of what the market will determine my price to be. That's a lot riskier of a proposal then this contract.

You don't give him a choice...franchise him.


Losing Winfield still stings me for the record.

You and me both.


Sure has which is why he has the bigger contract.

Ha, by a few dollars.


So did Taylor.

Tyrod did not earn his spot. He was given it because a something like 7 other QBs declined to go. He was a warm body willing to go, he earned nothing.


I would think the Bills are already in the market for a interior OL depth, a DT, and a K given the advanced age of the players I mentioned. So I don't agree with your second sentence there.

We'd be in worse shape depth-wise without Kyle, Wood and Incognito though, right?

[Goobylal]

Unless he gets hurt, in which case his $27.5MM salary is guaranteed, according to Mike Rodak.

Feel worse about the deal now?

How hurt? Season-ending or career-ending?


It's not necessarily that Tyrod is injury prone. It's that historically, players of his size and willingness to run, are more apt to get injured.

We shall see.

[DraftBoy]

Are you fine with the injury clause in his contract that guarantees his $27.5MM salary in 2017 if he gets hurt in 2016?

Yes, I always support the player getting as much as he can.


You don't give him a choice...franchise him.

So you want to pay a guy who we both agree is around 15th in the league the average of the Top 5 QB's? That was $19+ million this year, and will probably be above $20 million next year.


Ha, by a few dollars.

But with far more guarantees and locked in numbers.


Tyrod did not earn his spot. He was given it because a something like 7 other QBs declined to go. He was a warm body willing to go, he earned nothing.

When they start offering up Pro Bowl spots to back-ups then you have a point. He wasn't one of the top QB's called but say he was just a warm body is insulting.


We'd be in worse shape depth-wise without Kyle, Wood and Incognito though, right?
Maybe, I don't know if Wood or Incognito would be a bigger loss.

Without Kyle we lose little to nothing, imo.

[trapezeus]

joe, fair enough. I don't want to be viewed as a bills apologist. my initial response was why do it? but I made my points above on why I could live with it. I would have assumed they would have killed themselves with a more lopsided deal. for the bills it seemed somewhat reasonable. I really do hope TT makes that jump. but the bills still have to do the hard work of looking to groom the next guy. something they seem to avoid each year this drought started. my long term view is that this team is handcuffed by Russ and his ability to sell ownership his plan and then wash his hands clean of it when it doesn't work and be part of the next search. that ultimately is what is killing the team.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Yes, I always support the player getting as much as he can.

I should have asked if you think it was a good decision by the Bills, not if you were OK with the clause.


So you want to pay a guy who we both agree is around 15th in the league the average of the Top 5 QB's? That was $19+ million this year, and will probably be above $20 million next year.

"If he's worth it."

- Joe Fo Sho like 5 posts ago


See, that's the advantage to waiting until the end of this year to find out. We can pay him according to his actual value, without guessing at how good he is.


When they start offering up Pro Bowl spots to back-ups then you have a point. He wasn't one of the top QB's called but say he was just a warm body is insulting.

Here are the Qbs who were given a spot before him.

Wilson
Newton
Brady
Rodgers
Roethlisberger
Palmer
Dalton
Rivers
Brees

Then he was drafted last in the new style of team selection, after:

Carr
Eli
Bridgewater
Winston

He was the 14th QB, where they usually invite the top 6. He was far from 'deserving' of a pro bowl spot. He wouldn't have even made the Pro Bowl 2nd team, he would have been on the 3rd Pro Bowl roster had no one declined.

[Joe Fo Sho]

How hurt? Season-ending or career-ending?

No idea. I would have to assume it has to do with the 2016 season, not the rest of his career. I still don't like that there's mention of him getting guaranteed money if he gets hurt.

[Goobylal]

No idea. I would have to assume it has to do with the 2016 season, not the rest of his career. I still don't like that there's mention of him getting guaranteed money if he gets hurt.

Typically these are for career-ending injuries. So I'm not going to worry unless/until there's a reason to be worried.

[Goobylal]

Yes, I always support the player getting as much as he can.

So you want to pay a guy who we both agree is around 15th in the league the average of the Top 5 QB's? That was $19+ million this year, and will probably be above $20 million next year.

But with far more guarantees and locked in numbers.

When they start offering up Pro Bowl spots to back-ups then you have a point. He wasn't one of the top QB's called but say he was just a warm body is insulting.

Maybe, I don't know if Wood or Incognito would be a bigger loss.

Without Kyle we lose little to nothing, imo.

The tag for QB's was $20M this year. I expect after Luck's deal it will jump to close to $22M. Which severely limits what they can do when it comes to signing their own players (Gilmore), much less outside players. And that $22M has a good chance of becoming the average, or close to it, of his long-term deal.

And there's no reason the Bills have to jettison Wood and/or Incog and/or Kyle. They can also restructure their deals to free up money.

[Bill Cody]

Those who think he's injury prone are misguided. He missed 2 games last year after he got injured by a (now illegal) horse collar-like tackle (by recently added LB Zach Brown) in the Titans game.

We'll see. He needs to run to be effective and running QB's usually get hurt, just reality

[SpikedLemonade]

Unless he gets hurt, in which case his $27.5MM salary is guaranteed, according to Mike Rodak.

Feel worse about the deal now?

What sheer incompetence on the part of Bills management.

[Goobylal]

What sheer incompetence on the part of Bills management.

LOL!

[Mace]

Well, I think we should get rid of the term "franchise qb" and hope he's a reliable starter.

I'll admit the injury clause baffles me. http://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/25513/bills-have-unique-flexibility-with-tyrod-taylors-extension


2017 SEASON

Base salary: $12 million (fully guaranteed once option bonus is exercised; prior to option bonus being exercised, base salary is $27.5 million and guaranteed for injury only until fourth day of 2017 league year, when it becomes fully guaranteed if option is not exercised and Taylor remains on roster.)



One of the likeliest things is Taylor being injured. So if say, he tears his acl or wrecks a shoulder in October after 6 inconclusive games, they have to keep him for 2017 at a 15 mil cap hit even if he doesn't recover his mobility or throwing ability instead of paying 27.5 to cut him before the season starts when they find out he can't run their offense.

That just isn't real smart and could well end up looking as stupid as Whaley not putting a void on guaranteed money in Dareus contract for substance abuse suspension.

In general I like the contract as I've explained but this is sort of glaring.