Bills torn a new one, here comes the expectations of a 5-6 win season

[Skooby]

The team wants to put on a show but those in the know, know we are really screwed right now. 6 wins looks to be the tops we can do, it's really sad actually.

http://buckyandsully.buffalonews.com/2016/08/20/judge-the-bills-by-their-actions-not-their-words/?utm_campaign=puma&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1471749514

[Mr. Pink]

It's a Jerry Sullivan article, therefore it doesn't need to be read and can be completely ignored.

SUPERBOWL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[Mace]

It's a Jerry Sullivan article, therefore it doesn't need to be read and can be completely ignored.

SUPERBOWL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Bucky Gleason, Pink. Mind your Bucky's & Sully's.

Anyhoo, regarding Dareus (still grates on me) :


The most mind-boggling fact about his situation is that the Bills didn’t have an escape clause, based on his conduct, for the length of his contract. They can only get back guaranteed money for one year on his $96 million deal. It was signed, by the way, after the synthetic-pot ordeal and his moronic street-racing incident.



It really is mind-boggling.

[Mr. Pink]

Bucky Gleason, Pink. Mind your Bucky's & Sully's.

Anyhoo, regarding Dareus (still grates on me) :



It really is mind-boggling.

Oh woops I saw Sully!!!!!!!!!11

Not that it matters, Bucky is just an idiot too!!!!!!!!!11

SUPERBOWL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[YardRat]

lol...6 wins is extremely optimistic.

[sahlensguy]

What's even more sad, are all of the built in excuses for this regimes return for next season.

[coastal]

Whaley exits this year.

Rex the year after.

rinse.

repeat.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Bucky Gleason, Pink. Mind your Bucky's & Sully's.

Anyhoo, regarding Dareus (still grates on me) :



It really is mind-boggling.

It's not mind boggling at all. It's leverage. Dareus was coming off an All Pro season on a top 5 defense. You can't just jam a contract under his face and force him to sign it, he had the leverage so he got paid. Tyrod did not have leverage so the Bills got a much more favorable deal with out clauses.

[OpIv37]

I was expecting 6 wins long before reading that article.

Still, that article is nothing but a ***** session. The Bills are misbehaving, Ryan's a loudmouth, the team is inconsistent in how it deals with behavior issues, the team sucks and has sucked for 15 years.... blah blah blah.

I know, some of you will say that's ironic coming from me and you wouldn't be entirely incorrect. But I'm a disgruntled fan on an unofficial message board. This article by a (supposedly) real journalist was actually published by a (supposedly) real newspaper. WTF?

[Mace]

It's not mind boggling at all. It's leverage. Dareus was coming off an All Pro season on a top 5 defense. You can't just jam a contract under his face and force him to sign it, he had the leverage so he got paid. Tyrod did not have leverage so the Bills got a much more favorable deal with out clauses.

Fighting the insertion of a void clause based on substance abuse suspension after he'd already labeled himself with the issues would have harmed his value across the board. They didn't put one in because it didn't occur to them.

- - - Updated - - -


Whaley exits this year.

Rex the year after.

rinse.

repeat.

So you want us to fire them and rehire them so we can fire them again, then rehire them to fire them again, then...

[Ginger Vitis]

When I first read that article I too thought it was a Sully piece...

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/marcell-dareus/

The Bills are stuck with Dareus for 2 more years until 2018 then if he is cut the dead cap vs the cap hit is much more manageable..

[Mace]

When I first read that article I too thought it was a Sully piece...

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/marcell-dareus/

The Bills are stuck with Dareus for 2 more years until 2018 then if he is cut the dead cap vs the cap hit is much more manageable..

2019. His dead cap is still over 16 million in 2018, drops to 7.8 the following year.

[Skooby]

If he flies off the handle and can't play football, it'll be a whole different story. Getting himself banned from playing NFL at all would definitely stop him from collecting money and give us cap relief.

[sahlensguy]

Fighting the insertion of a void clause based on substance abuse suspension after he'd already labeled himself with the issues would have harmed his value across the board. They didn't put one in because it didn't occur to them.

My guess is that they 'thought' of it, but didn't put one in because they just thought that they were smarter than everyone else.

[sahlensguy]

If he flies off the handle and can't play football, it'll be a whole different story. Getting himself banned from playing NFL at all would definitely stop him from collecting money and give us cap relief.

That's like wishing for the team to tank.

[Goobylal]

Fighting the insertion of a void clause based on substance abuse suspension after he'd already labeled himself with the issues would have harmed his value across the board. They didn't put one in because it didn't occur to them.

So you want us to fire them and rehire them so we can fire them again, then rehire them to fire them again, then...

LOL! Sure.

[HHURRICANE]

We'll be 10-6. Bet on it. And this is someone that's been realistic.

I think this team is better than people think.

[stuckincincy]

Sully gets paid for being a provocateur.

[Mace]

LOL! Sure.

Ok, so it occurred to them and they thought better of it ? Lol back at you, don't you think ?

[Generalissimus Gibby]

4 to 7 wins is the norm around this team. I have full faith in them to win 4 to 7 again this year as nothing has been done to prove me wrong? Why? Simple, there will be no full out Indy type tank job as that lands a top pick that could help us build, and there will be no playoffs either because well that is too damn much to ask.

[Skooby]

That's like wishing for the team to tank.

No I'm not.

[YardRat]

Fighting the insertion of a void clause based on substance abuse suspension after he'd already labeled himself with the issues would have harmed his value across the board. They didn't put one in because it didn't occur to them.

- - - Updated - - -



So you want us to fire them and rehire them so we can fire them again, then rehire them to fire them again, then...


My guess is that they 'thought' of it, but didn't put one in because they just thought that they were smarter than everyone else.


It may not be allowable under the terms of the CBA.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Fighting the insertion of a void clause based on substance abuse suspension after he'd already labeled himself with the issues would have harmed his value across the board. They didn't put one in because it didn't occur to them.

Any clause which allows the Bills to pull back on their contract guarantees severely lessens the value of the contract. Dareus would not have signed it.

[Skooby]

Any clause which allows the Bills to pull back on their contract guarantees severely lessens the value of the contract. Dareus would not have signed it.

Him being unavailable to play via suspensions is going to take care of it in the long run.

[Joe Fo Sho]

We'll be 10-6. Bet on it.

Can we please bet on that?

[Skooby]

Can we please bet on that?

LOL, my thoughts exactly.

[Goobylal]

Ok, so it occurred to them and they thought better of it ? Lol back at you, don't you think ?

What on earth makes you think they didn't think of it? You realize they have guys who have negotiated hundreds of contracts. I'm betting they didn't include it because they thought he'd never sign the contract and be gone.

[Mace]

It may not be allowable under the terms of the CBA.

Lane Johnson had one via Philly. http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2016/8/9/12415618/lane-johnson-suspension-guaranteed-money-eagles-contract-tackle-philadelphia-details

[Mace]

What on earth makes you think they didn't think of it? You realize they have guys who have negotiated hundreds of contracts. I'm betting they didn't include it because they thought he'd never sign the contract and be gone.

And all those contracts worked out just right same as all the other teams that have so much experience carry dead cap and make mistakes. The Bills made one.

He just had a stage 2 4 game suspension and hasn't been able to correct it to date. Next is 6-10, then bans. But he's uncuttable until 2019 and he's going to be getting up to 10 unannounced drug tests per month for the next 3 years. That's what, oh...maybe 360 tests tops to keep passing and keep taking.

But no, it was much wiser to you to think they thought of it then discarded it instead of not thinking of it at all. Oh they know better all right, it's been proven so many times, keep thinking it.

[Mace]

Any clause which allows the Bills to pull back on their contract guarantees severely lessens the value of the contract. Dareus would not have signed it.

So what ? That was still the thing to do. And he'd be on someone elses roster useless for 4 games with up to 360 more unannounced drug tests over the next 3 years until he's cuttable. The young man has a lot of clean tests ahead to participate in.

[Goobylal]

And all those contracts worked out just right same as all the other teams that have so much experience carry dead cap and make mistakes. The Bills made one.

He just had a stage 2 4 game suspension and hasn't been able to correct it to date. Next is 6-10, then bans. But he's uncuttable until 2019 and he's going to be getting up to 10 unannounced drug tests per month for the next 3 years. That's what, oh...maybe 360 tests tops to keep passing and keep taking.

But no, it was much wiser to you to think they thought of it then discarded it instead of not thinking of it at all. Oh they know better all right, it's been proven so many times, keep thinking it.

Contracts like those are commonplace. They know about them. To think they didn't is funny.

[Gilly]

Lets just imagine the Bills losing Dareus. Half of you in here nearly blew an aneurysm when we lost Williams, a guy who quit on us the second half of last season. The woe is us crowd wouldve made this forum unreadable..

[Skooby]

Lets just imagine the Bills losing Dareus. Half of you in here nearly blew an aneurysm when we lost Williams, a guy who quit on us the second half of last season. The woe is us crowd wouldve made this forum unreadable..

Woe is us crowd ?? Have you been following the pre-season at all ?? It's been a complete nightmare and the Bills for sure have had the worst time of it in the league, "winning the off-season" was Rex's call. It's the exact opposite and we haven't heard much from Rex anymore lately, there's good reason for that.

[Goobylal]

Woe is us crowd ?? Have you been following the pre-season at all ?? It's been a complete nightmare and the Bills for sure have had the worst time of it in the league, "winning the off-season" was Rex's call. It's the exact opposite and we haven't heard much from Rex anymore lately, there's good reason for that.

And yet things don't seem too bleak. The team, especially the defense, looks good, and that's minus Kyle, Manny, and Nickell, plus Marcell and AW this past weekend. And TT has looked sharp with his passing despite missing the left 2/5 of his line and Sammy.

[Skooby]

And yet things don't seem too bleak. The team, especially the defense, looks good, and that's minus Kyle, Manny, and Nickell, plus Marcell and AW this past weekend. And TT has looked sharp with his passing despite missing the left 2/5 of his line and Sammy.

TT needs to become near super-hero status to raise us above the fray.

[Goobylal]

TT needs to become near super-hero status to raise us above the fray.

He looked pretty darn good Saturday, minus Cordy, Ritchie, and Sammy.

[Skooby]

He looked pretty darn good Saturday, minus Cordy, Ritchie, and Sammy.

I agree, great performance and ~145 QB rating. He keeps that up, we have a chance in every game.

[Goobylal]

I agree, great performance and ~145 QB rating. He keeps that up, we have a chance in every game.

When the Bills first signed him, I thought he would be lucky to make the #2 QB. Glad to say I was wrong on that one.

[Mace]

Contracts like those are commonplace. They know about them. To think they didn't is funny.

To me, it's even funnier that you have such a blind faith in an organization that hasn't been to the playoffs in 16 years and a contract negotiation team that did the Fitzpatrick deal and just failed to put in a void clause for a problem child to end up on the hook for 360 positive tests until 2019 with guaranteed money.

And is it much wiser to you to think such an experienced organization thought of it then discarded it instead of not thinking of it at all with those 360 possible tests until 2019 ?

But they know about everything and think it through. They make mistakes like any other team does. This was one of them.

[Goobylal]

To me, it's even funnier that you have such a blind faith in an organization that hasn't been to the playoffs in 16 years and a contract negotiation team that did the Fitzpatrick deal and just failed to put in a void clause for a problem child to end up on the hook for 360 positive tests until 2019 with guaranteed money.

And is it much wiser to you to think such an experienced organization thought of it then discarded it instead of not thinking of it at all with those 360 possible tests until 2019 ?

But they know about everything and think it through. They make mistakes like any other team does. This was one of them.

Again, they know about those void clauses. They likely didn't do it because Marcell would have refused to re-sign.

But we shall see if it was a mistake. Even if they had inserted it, they weren't going to take back any money for this incident.

[Mace]

Again, they know about those void clauses. They likely didn't do it because Marcell would have refused to re-sign.

But we shall see if it was a mistake. Even if they had inserted it, they weren't going to take back any money for this incident.

They "likely", they "know". Prudent organizational move was to force a void clause. Maybe Dareus would have paid attention closer. Or again, he'd be on someone elses hook for up to 360 passed tests until 2019. Or maybe he'd still earn the same money, just not guaranteed.

If they had inserted it, they weren't going to take back any money ? Oh you lost me there. If Lane Johnson's clause will cost him guaranteed money, Dareus' clause wouldn't ?

That clause means salary, bonuses and agreements are still earnable and contractual, but not guaranteed. That frankly, saves a lot of money if he goes down again.

There's absolutely no reason not to force this clause and no reason for Dareus to not agree to the same contract with a void clause unless he knew he couldn't manage the terms.

It allows both sides to maintain the faith and uphold their end.

They made a mistake.

[SpikedLemonade]

The team wants to put on a show but those in the know, know we are really screwed right now. 6 wins looks to be the tops we can do, it's really sad actually.

I wish I had said this 3 months ago...wait...I did.

[Goobylal]

They "likely", they "know". Prudent organizational move was to force a void clause. Maybe Dareus would have paid attention closer. Or again, he'd be on someone elses hook for up to 360 passed tests until 2019. Or maybe he'd still earn the same money, just not guaranteed.

If they had inserted it, they weren't going to take back any money ? Oh you lost me there. If Lane Johnson's clause will cost him guaranteed money, Dareus' clause wouldn't ?

That clause means salary, bonuses and agreements are still earnable and contractual, but not guaranteed. That frankly, saves a lot of money if he goes down again.

There's absolutely no reason not to force this clause and no reason for Dareus to not agree to the same contract with a void clause unless he knew he couldn't manage the terms.

It allows both sides to maintain the faith and uphold their end.

They made a mistake.

Sure there is a reason: Marcell probably wouldn't have signed it and they would have lost him. Again they know about these types of clauses.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

They "likely", they "know". Prudent organizational move was to force a void clause. Maybe Dareus would have paid attention closer. Or again, he'd be on someone elses hook for up to 360 passed tests until 2019. Or maybe he'd still earn the same money, just not guaranteed.

If they had inserted it, they weren't going to take back any money ? Oh you lost me there. If Lane Johnson's clause will cost him guaranteed money, Dareus' clause wouldn't ?

That clause means salary, bonuses and agreements are still earnable and contractual, but not guaranteed. That frankly, saves a lot of money if he goes down again.

There's absolutely no reason not to force this clause and no reason for Dareus to not agree to the same contract with a void clause unless he knew he couldn't manage the terms.

It allows both sides to maintain the faith and uphold their end.

They made a mistake.

You don't get anything in a contract negotiation for free. If you want Marcel to give up and accept this void clause, what are you giving him in return? Keep in mind he's already one of the highest paid players in the league.

[Skooby]

Pure speculation here, throw a little more money on the table for a clean out is always worth it especially with a guy who had known problems then.

[Goobylal]

Pure speculation here, throw a little more money on the table for a clean out is always worth it especially with a guy who had known problems then.

Doesn't matter how much more money you throw at him, he likely doesn't sign the deal if it has voidable guarantees. And again, to think that the Bills "forgot" or didn't know about voidable clauses is silly. It's not like they came up with the contract on the spot and had him sign it. It was obviously a drawn-out process.

[Ingtar33]

I took one look at the schedule when it was released and struggled hard to see more then 8 wins on it. I think 8 is our ceiling this year; if they can get to it, it will be a fairly ok season all things considered.

If they can do better then they should be able to ball with playoff teams, and the future is bright (even if we don't get to the playoffs).

If they do worse then it's just more of the same from this squad; either underperforming, or undisciplined and taking a lot of penalties, or poor coaching, or poor/overrated talent, or tyrod turns into poop.

[Mace]

You don't get anything in a contract negotiation for free. If you want Marcel to give up and accept this void clause, what are you giving him in return? Keep in mind he's already one of the highest paid players in the league.

He gets the same contract and the chance to earn it, it's just not guaranteed if he gets suspended for substance abuse. What idiot telegraphs his potential for substance abuse to an employer investing that much money in him ?

They had a tool they could have used and didn't. I find it ridiculous. I find defending not using it to be ridiculous too. Because he just got suspended again and has to have and pass around 360 unannounced drug tests between now and 2019. Good luck with that, he's getting close to the banhammer.

[Mace]

Sure there is a reason: Marcell probably wouldn't have signed it and they would have lost him. Again they know about these types of clauses.

They didn't use a tool appropriate to be used. They made a mistake because in your view, they are experienced and know what they're doing. So, in your view they made a mistake on purpose.

Still ends the same. They made the mistake.

[Goobylal]

They didn't use a tool appropriate to be used. They made a mistake because in your view, they are experienced and know what they're doing. So, in your view they made a mistake on purpose.

Still ends the same. They made the mistake.

Again, if they demand he accept the void clause, he likely plays out his contract and walks at the end of last season. Since we can't see the future to know if he'll miss more than the 4 games (or maybe that's enough for you), we can't say right now that it was a mistake to re-sign him/not include the void clause.

[Historian]

A couple thoughts:

First of all, I did not know you could go to rehab for smoking pot. As far as I know, it's natural and non-addictive, as opposed to alcohol, cocaine, pain killers, etc. Can any of the dope smokers clear that one up for me? Is he there to get cured of the munchies that it produces?

Second, My guess is that Williams got cut and Darius didn't due to the huge financial hit they would take. He has potential too. when he's on, he's the next Warren Sapp. Unfortunately, he has been more of a headache lately. Williams on the other hand, probably had weight benchmarks he had to hit by certain dates. When he weighed in for the Giants game, he probably was way behind, and the Bills were having none of it, despite how well he played last year.

Third, as Ingtar mentioned, the schedule is killer. THREE trips to the west coast, where they never play well. (Haven't won in Seattle since 2000, Oakland since 1965, and never beat the Rams in the Coliseum, or Anaheim) I penciled those three in as losses back in April. Two annual losses to the Patriots, as well as beatings by the Steelers, Cardinals, and Bengals. 9-7 MAX is about what I figured, assuming TT stays healthy, and they don't do anything stupid.

I for one, appreciate Sully. While the rest of the writers are doing puff pieces about the team in order to maintain access, he tells it like it is. He's been here through thick and thin, and has witnessed the poor decision making first hand. All this while watching a division opponent, who has traditionally been a laughingstock, win four Super Bowls.

At some point this organization needs to take a long hard look at itself, and try to figure out why they have been irrelevant for almost TWO DECADES, in the era of free agency.

It's football guys, not neurosurgery.

/endrant

[Goobylal]

Williams was also a dirtbag in college, which is why he fell to the mid-5th round. And how do you come into camp 40# overweight, and then not only not lose weight, but gain it? Shows you his lack of commitment and character. But even if Marcell was being paid like Karlos was, they wouldn't have even thought once about cutting him. Pot is in a completely different category from other drugs/alcohol.

[Skooby]

Williams was also a dirtbag in college, which is why he fell to the mid-5th round. And how do you come into camp 40# overweight, and then not only not lose weight, but gain it? Shows you his lack of commitment and character. But even if Marcell was being paid like Karlos was, they wouldn't have even thought once about cutting him. Pot is in a completely different category from other drugs/alcohol.

The things I heard about Karlos wouldn't allow slack at all, he's not trustable. Fat, stupid and suspended was the trigger.

[Bill Cody]

I was expecting 6 wins long before reading that article.

Still, that article is nothing but a ***** session. The Bills are misbehaving, Ryan's a loudmouth, the team is inconsistent in how it deals with behavior issues, the team sucks and has sucked for 15 years.... blah blah blah.

I know, some of you will say that's ironic coming from me and you wouldn't be entirely incorrect. But I'm a disgruntled fan on an unofficial message board. This article by a (supposedly) real journalist was actually published by a (supposedly) real newspaper. WTF?

LOL

[Goobylal]

The things I heard about Karlos wouldn't allow slack at all, he's not trustable. Fat, stupid and suspended was the trigger.

But what was the last straw? We knew about the fat, stupid, and suspended weeks (or more) ago.

[gebobs]

Carbos Williams

http://bills.wp.buffalonews.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/06/1005104752-McCoy-Sport-Bi8.jpg

[Mr. Pink]

Carbos Williams

http://bills.wp.buffalonews.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/06/1005104752-McCoy-Sport-Bi8.jpg


Maybe they should have kept him and tried him out to play Guard opposite of Incognito!

He's gaining the size for it and since he's a RB, his footwork should be good. :rofl:

[elroy16]

A couple thoughts:

First of all, I did not know you could go to rehab for smoking pot. As far as I know, it's natural and non-addictive, as opposed to alcohol, cocaine, pain killers, etc. Can any of the dope smokers clear that one up for me? Is he there to get cured of the munchies that it produces?

Second, My guess is that Williams got cut and Darius didn't due to the huge financial hit they would take. He has potential too. when he's on, he's the next Warren Sapp. Unfortunately, he has been more of a headache lately. Williams on the other hand, probably had weight benchmarks he had to hit by certain dates. When he weighed in for the Giants game, he probably was way behind, and the Bills were having none of it, despite how well he played last year.

Third, as Ingtar mentioned, the schedule is killer. THREE trips to the west coast, where they never play well. (Haven't won in Seattle since 2000, Oakland since 1965, and never beat the Rams in the Coliseum, or Anaheim) I penciled those three in as losses back in April. Two annual losses to the Patriots, as well as beatings by the Steelers, Cardinals, and Bengals. 9-7 MAX is about what I figured, assuming TT stays healthy, and they don't do anything stupid.

I for one, appreciate Sully. While the rest of the writers are doing puff pieces about the team in order to maintain access, he tells it like it is. He's been here through thick and thin, and has witnessed the poor decision making first hand. All this while watching a division opponent, who has traditionally been a laughingstock, win four Super Bowls.

At some point this organization needs to take a long hard look at itself, and try to figure out why they have been irrelevant for almost TWO DECADES, in the era of free agency.

It's football guys, not neurosurgery.

/endrant



In terms of going to rehab, the non-addictive part means absolutely nothing to me. People get addicted to eating sofa cushions, shopping, yoga, etc. In Marcell's case, I doubt it has much to do with the physical addition of pot and more so the crutch it provides. I'm just guessing based off of experiences a few friends have had and also my experience of having to stop smoking after doing it everyday for a couple of years. For me, it was easy to just stop, but no one's experience is the same as the next person, so again, I'm just guessing here.


I can't get on board with the, it's football, not neurosurgery. Yes, football is easier than brain surgery, but the neurosurgeons aren't competing against the 31 other top neurosurgeons in the world. Apples to oranges.


Lastly, going through the schedule to pick out wins and loses is close to pointless, IMO. I bet 90% of Bills fans and 100% of neutral observers thought the Bills would lose to the Colts last year. I think they'll win between 5 and 11 games. Five if Tyrod, Sammy, Clay, Glenn, Richie, Woods, Gilmore, Darby, Kyle Williams, Hughes, and McCoy all get hurt and 11 if they all stay healthy and the defense takes a big step in the right direction.

[gebobs]

I can't get on board with the, it's football, not neurosurgery. Yes, football is easier than brain surgery, but the neurosurgeons aren't competing against the 31 other top neurosurgeons in the world. Apples to oranges.

The only reason it's in the policy is because it's illegal. It's not performance enhancing for an athlete, that's for sure. And it's being legalized or at least decriminalized, rightly so IMHO, just about everywhere. The reason why the NFL doesn't follow suit is because they want to provide a squeaky clean illusion. That's their prerogative but how is the image tarnished if a player is sparking up in the privacy of his home? It's an overreaction and the policy should be changed. Unfortunately, any change may be perceived as tacit approval, so it's not likely going to happen any time soon.


I think they'll win ... 11 if they all stay healthy and the defense takes a big step in the right direction.

I hope your employer doesn't have a similar testing policy, my man. :-)

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Maybe they should have kept him and tried him out to play Guard opposite of Incognito!

He's gaining the size for it and since he's a RB, his footwork should be good. :rofl:

You know he's bad when he's cut from the only team that's having an actual fullback battle in camp

[stuckincincy]

You know he's bad when he's cut from the only team that's having an actual fullback battle in camp

There you go again, dabbling with irony on this site. It seldom flies here. :kid:

[elroy16]

The only reason it's in the policy is because it's illegal. It's not performance enhancing for an athlete, that's for sure. And it's being legalized or at least decriminalized, rightly so IMHO, just about everywhere. The reason why the NFL doesn't follow suit is because they want to provide a squeaky clean illusion. That's their prerogative but how is the image tarnished if a player is sparking up in the privacy of his home? It's an overreaction and the policy should be changed. Unfortunately, any change may be perceived as tacit approval, so it's not likely going to happen any time soon.



I hope your employer doesn't have a similar testing policy, my man. :-)


I'm not disagreeing with the NFL's policy on weed or defending Marcell. I was just saying that while weed is not physically addicting, it doesn't mean someone can't be addicted to doing it. I agree, I don't think they should test for it, but we'll have to probably wait a while for that to happen.



Like I said, 11 wins IF everyone stays healthy, the offense improves, the defense takes a BIG step, and they get lucky.


Thankfully they do not...

[gebobs]

I'm not disagreeing with the NFL's policy on weed or defending Marcell. I was just saying that while weed is not physically addicting, it doesn't mean someone can't be addicted to doing it.
I totally agree with you there. That's why I didn't quote that part. I don't think my post was intended to contradict you at all. I was just going off on how ridiculous the policy is.

[Mr. Pink]

But the policy isn't ridiculous.

It's like many work places that have drug tests, and if you get caught with marijuana in your system, you fail. The difference is in other work places, one failed test leads to you not being hired in the first place or termination.

If guys like Dareus, Rickey Williams, Josh Gordon, etc don't like the rules then they shouldn't have suited up to begin with. If they couldn't keep themselves clean for 5-10 years, then that's on them...not the leagues substance abuse policy.

Johnny Manziel's fault is his and his alone, not the rules.

[gebobs]

If guys like Dareus, Rickey Williams, Josh Gordon, etc don't like the rules then they shouldn't have suited up to begin with.

What if the NFL had a no alcohol policy? Would you think it was reasonable for them to impose that on the players?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

But the policy isn't ridiculous.

It's like many work places that have drug tests, and if you get caught with marijuana in your system, you fail. The difference is in other work places, one failed test leads to you not being hired in the first place or termination.

If guys like Dareus, Rickey Williams, Josh Gordon, etc don't like the rules then they shouldn't have suited up to begin with. If they couldn't keep themselves clean for 5-10 years, then that's on them...not the leagues substance abuse policy.

Johnny Manziel's fault is his and his alone, not the rules.

The law is ridiculous, but I can't fault the NFL for following it. Like I said during Marcel's last summer of stupid, I was amazed how many people rushed to his defense for a street racing accident that could have killed someone, but hammered him over some weed.

[Mace]

Again, if they demand he accept the void clause, he likely plays out his contract and walks at the end of last season. Since we can't see the future to know if he'll miss more than the 4 games (or maybe that's enough for you), we can't say right now that it was a mistake to re-sign him/not include the void clause.

If you think he's going to pass the next 360 or so drug tests until 2019 and makes the FO look clever, by all means say so.

I find it unlikely and wouldn't mind if it was some other team shouldering the guaranteed money and possible dead cap. I like Dareus, but don't see this ending well. They made a mistake not including a void clause whether or not he liked it, and not liking it would have been a sure indicator of what was ahead, as, well, it was because he was just suspended 4 games and off to rehab.

If you think that means the FO has their act together, good for you.

[Mace]

The law is ridiculous, but I can't fault the NFL for following it. Like I said during Marcel's last summer of stupid, I was amazed how many people rushed to his defense for a street racing accident that could have killed someone, but hammered him over some weed.

It's not even that. He's not your plumber taking a toke, he's big money athlete demonstrating continued apathy about it, and he's a core player on a team you hope will succeed and now will do less well because a guy making more than 10 million bucks couldn't stick to the plan for a while. He could have gotten himself off the program after a clean year, but he couldn't make it.

But it isn't the odd toke, though you don't want your surgeon taking a few hits before popping your skull open. It's just some simple rules for a period in his life.

[Goobylal]

If you think he's going to pass the next 360 or so drug tests until 2019 and makes the FO look clever, by all means say so.

I find it unlikely and wouldn't mind if it was some other team shouldering the guaranteed money and possible dead cap. I like Dareus, but don't see this ending well. They made a mistake not including a void clause whether or not he liked it, and not liking it would have been a sure indicator of what was ahead, as, well, it was because he was just suspended 4 games and off to rehab.

If you think that means the FO has their act together, good for you.

We shall see.

[Skooby]

We shall see.

He skipped the game to enter rehab but partied that night, same shirt before and after the game. I don't know where you're from or what you think may happen but this is a train is off the track.

He's suspended and overweight, still partying even on gameday. It's pretty sad.

[elroy16]

He skipped the game to enter rehab but partied that night, same shirt before and after the game. I don't know where you're from or what you think may happen but this is a train is off the track.

He's suspended and overweight, still partying even on gameday. It's pretty sad.



Why do people keep saying he's overweight? Dareus said he added muscle, lost fat, and is on the low side for his weight at the beginning of camp.



http://www.buffalobills.com/video/videos/Marcell-Dareus-I-Know-Were-Gonna-Make-a-Run/48c314f7-8ae4-43b2-afb7-d7600acab3eb

[Skooby]

Why do people keep saying he's overweight? Dareus said he added muscle, lost fat, and is on the low side for his weight at the beginning of camp.



http://www.buffalobills.com/video/videos/Marcell-Dareus-I-Know-Were-Gonna-Make-a-Run/48c314f7-8ae4-43b2-afb7-d7600acab3eb

The muscle must be buried below the fat, he looks fat to me. LOL.

[Mr. Pink]

What if the NFL had a no alcohol policy? Would you think it was reasonable for them to impose that on the players?


There isn't one to start because alcohol isn't illegal in this country anywhere, whereas marijuana is still illegal in the majority of the country. However once you end up in the leagues substance abuse protocol it does also include alcohol. Josh Gordon found out all about it.

Is the law of the land in the wrong for criminalizing pot is a whole different discussion entirely but as long as marijuana is illegal in most NFL cities, it'll be illegal in the league. What is the league going to do, allow players on the Broncos to smoke up while punishing players on the Dolphins for doing it?

[sahlensguy]

There isn't one to start because alcohol isn't illegal in this country anywhere, whereas marijuana is still illegal in the majority of the country. However once you end up in the leagues substance abuse protocol it does also include alcohol. Josh Gordon found out all about it.

Is the law of the land in the wrong for criminalizing pot is a whole different discussion entirely but as long as marijuana is illegal in most NFL cities, it'll be illegal in the league. What is the league going to do, allow players on the Broncos to smoke up while punishing players on the Dolphins for doing it?

Why test for it in the first place?

Makes sense if you're an equipment operator, doctor or in any other profession where the safety of others is on the line. But why test football athletes?

[Goobylal]

He skipped the game to enter rehab but partied that night, same shirt before and after the game. I don't know where you're from or what you think may happen but this is a train is off the track.

He's suspended and overweight, still partying even on gameday. It's pretty sad.

It's apparent that when many of you heard he was skipping the game to go to rehab, you took it to mean he informed the team he would be skipping the game to immediately check-in to rehab. I doubt a) it was his decision, b) that he was expected to go there immediately, and c) that the team didn't already plan on giving Bryant playing time with the starters since he'd be starting the first 4 games of the season in his place. As for partying that night, there were no reports of him even drinking, much less toking it up. What do your sources say MMD?

[Skooby]

It's apparent that when many of you heard he was skipping the game to go to rehab, you took it to mean he informed the team he would be skipping the game to immediately check-in to rehab. I doubt a) it was his decision, b) that he was expected to go there immediately, and c) that the team didn't already plan on giving Bryant playing time with the starters since he'd be starting the first 4 games of the season in his place. As for partying that night, there were no reports of him even drinking, much less toking it up. What do your sources say MMD?

Don't worry he partied, no tests during rehab because you go under a doctors care and their medical advice / medicines temporarily override anything else based on best course of treatment. In the opinion of the management, the intent of him doing all of this is to F-off. He's not taking his previous actions seriously and the team is going to try to make it all straight but his games are known. We don't want to devalue his worth, when the time is right the team would consider moving on from him.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

It's not even that. He's not your plumber taking a toke, he's big money athlete demonstrating continued apathy about it, and he's a core player on a team you hope will succeed and now will do less well because a guy making more than 10 million bucks couldn't stick to the plan for a while. He could have gotten himself off the program after a clean year, but he couldn't make it.

But it isn't the odd toke, though you don't want your surgeon taking a few hits before popping your skull open. It's just some simple rules for a period in his life.

I wouldn't want Dareus toking before a game either, but I don't believe weed should be illegal so I don't believe it should be something the NFL goes out of its way to punish. But as long as we have regressive drug laws, I can't fault the NFL for enforcing them on players.

[Mr. Pink]

Why test for it in the first place?

Makes sense if you're an equipment operator, doctor or in any other profession where the safety of others is on the line. But why test football athletes?

So player safety in professional sports isn't important?

[Mace]

I wouldn't want Dareus toking before a game either, but I don't believe weed should be illegal so I don't believe it should be something the NFL goes out of its way to punish. But as long as we have regressive drug laws, I can't fault the NFL for enforcing them on players.

Probably won't be as prominent down the road, I read the NFL increased the THC threshhold they test for. Negligible diff really, but it's a start.

I've smoked my share and have no issues with weed being recreational. But I've also been impacted by a co worker who couldn't stay away from it while we did a complex and significant co dependent job.

The thing about Dareus is that it's part of a greater pattern of questionable adult responsibility. Alabama felony level possession while speeding, the drag racing charge, and now a missed test.

He's guaranteed an awful lot of money and is looking now at the rigid responsibility of close to 360 unannounced tests to make himself worth it, in addition to his performance on the field.

There's nothing much wrong with chugging southern comfort either if all you do is throw up on your own rug, wet yourself and pass out on your own soft bed without affecting anyone else.

Dareus knows the policies and terms of his lucrative employment. He's not your average recreational user.

[Mr. Pink]

It's funny to me, years ago we all mocked the Dolphins and Rickey Williams for the same thing. Rickey was aloof, weird, crazy or whatever...

Now that it's Dareus on the wrong side of the substance abuse policy, it shouldn't be illegal and the rules are ridiculous.

[stuckincincy]

I've smoked my share and have no issues with weed being recreational. But I've also been impacted by a co worker who couldn't stay away from it while we did a complex and significant co dependent job.



Are you a trapeze artist?

[Skooby]

It's funny to me, years ago we all mocked the Dolphins and Rickey Williams for the same thing. Rickey was aloof, weird, crazy or whatever...

Now that it's Dareus on the wrong side of the substance abuse policy, it shouldn't be illegal and the rules are ridiculous.

The whole climate around pot has changed since then, 25 states have legalized it so it's a different time. Cocaine was in Coca Cola at one point, talk about quite a soft drink.

[Goobylal]

Probably won't be as prominent down the road, I read the NFL increased the THC threshhold they test for. Negligible diff really, but it's a start.

I've smoked my share and have no issues with weed being recreational. But I've also been impacted by a co worker who couldn't stay away from it while we did a complex and significant co dependent job.

The thing about Dareus is that it's part of a greater pattern of questionable adult responsibility. Alabama felony level possession while speeding, the drag racing charge, and now a missed test.

He's guaranteed an awful lot of money and is looking now at the rigid responsibility of close to 360 unannounced tests to make himself worth it, in addition to his performance on the field.

There's nothing much wrong with chugging southern comfort either if all you do is throw up on your own rug, wet yourself and pass out on your own soft bed without affecting anyone else.

Dareus knows the policies and terms of his lucrative employment. He's not your average recreational user.

WRT the spice charge, he probably didn't know it was illegal, much less a felony. Why it is, I still have no idea. As for the drag racing, it's little different from speeding since you could make the argument that someone speeding could kill someone as well.

The pot thing...I don't know. It will be banned as long as some states refuse to legalize it, so players have to abide by the rules. Whether Marcell does remains to be seen and I'll give him the BOTD right now.

[YardRat]

They "likely", they "know". Prudent organizational move was to force a void clause. Maybe Dareus would have paid attention closer. Or again, he'd be on someone elses hook for up to 360 passed tests until 2019. Or maybe he'd still earn the same money, just not guaranteed.

If they had inserted it, they weren't going to take back any money ? Oh you lost me there. If Lane Johnson's clause will cost him guaranteed money, Dareus' clause wouldn't ?

That clause means salary, bonuses and agreements are still earnable and contractual, but not guaranteed. That frankly, saves a lot of money if he goes down again.

There's absolutely no reason not to force this clause and no reason for Dareus to not agree to the same contract with a void clause unless he knew he couldn't manage the terms.

It allows both sides to maintain the faith and uphold their end.

They made a mistake.


Sure there is a reason: Marcell probably wouldn't have signed it and they would have lost him. Again they know about these types of clauses.


I've already said this once, but I'm pretty sure it's explicitly against the terms of the CBA to include language that allows a club to void any deal, or obtain any forfeiture of salary from a player, based on any violation of the drug and steroid policies of the league. Section 9e of the CBA...

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

[Mr. Pink]

The whole climate around pot has changed since then, 25 states have legalized it so it's a different time. Cocaine was in Coca Cola at one point, talk about quite a soft drink.

The climate around pot hasn't changed in the past 6-10 years, this ain't cocaine being in Coca Cola 60 years ago. California legalized medicinal marijuana back in 2001.

Or Heroin being a wonder drug that was less addictive than Morphine.

[Goobylal]

The climate around pot hasn't changed in the past 6-10 years, this ain't cocaine being in Coca Cola 60 years ago. California legalized medicinal marijuana back in 2001.

Or Heroin being a wonder drug that was less addictive than Morphine.

Sure it's changed. Colorado and Washington legalized recreational marijuana not even 4 years ago.

[Skooby]

The climate around pot hasn't changed in the past 6-10 years, this ain't cocaine being in Coca Cola 60 years ago. California legalized medicinal marijuana back in 2001.

Or Heroin being a wonder drug that was less addictive than Morphine.

It's been on the FL ballot for a while, might make it this year.

[Mr. Pink]

Sure it's changed. Colorado and Washington legalized recreational marijuana not even 4 years ago.

States were decriminalizing marijuana back in the 1970s.

Oregon for example decriminalized marijuana back in 1973. That's not to say that you can freely smoke, sell or grow whatever you want but you can have less than a pound at your home at all times and have 4 plants and not face a penalty at all.

[Mace]

Are you a trapeze artist?

I'm a mime. Learned it in the military. Yep. Combat Mime.

[Mace]

I've already said this once, but I'm pretty sure it's explicitly against the terms of the CBA to include language that allows a club to void any deal, or obtain any forfeiture of salary from a player, based on any violation of the drug and steroid policies of the league. Section 9e of the CBA...

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

I gave you a link when you said it previous. Eagles did it with Lane Johnson, and ESPN looked into whether the Bills had a void clause for Dareus right off the bat.

Here's another.


Johnson tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs, a second positive PED test that led to a 10-game suspension. It could be costly; Johnson had $25 million in guaranteed money remaining on his deal, but the positive test meant none of that money is guaranteed anymore due to a clause in his contract.


https://sports.yahoo.com/news/lane-johnson-suing-supplement-company-over-his-suspension-223803690.html

[stuckincincy]

I'm a mime. Learned it in the military. Yep. Combat Mime.

Would that be an anti-personnel Combat Mime or an anti-tank Combat Mime?

[Mace]

Would that be an anti-personnel Combat Mime or an anti-tank Combat Mime?

Both. Crosstraining is mandatory.

[stuckincincy]

Both. Crosstraining is mandatory.

Makes sense.

Sadly, in this snuggly pc world, the caissons no longer go rolling along, and it is no longer hi hi hee in the field artillery.

[Mace]

the caissons no longer go rolling along, and it is no longer hi hi hee in the field artillery.

Mimed them, part of suppressive support mime. They were really big too, when they pretended to fire, we all fell down.

[YardRat]

I gave you a link when you said it previous. Eagles did it with Lane Johnson, and ESPN looked into whether the Bills had a void clause for Dareus right off the bat.

Here's another.



https://sports.yahoo.com/news/lane-johnson-suing-supplement-company-over-his-suspension-223803690.html


I'd have to see the language of the contract, but the prohibition of such language is spelled out in the CBA, in black and white.

(e)
Drug or Steroid Policy Violations.

Player Contracts may not contain individually negotiated provisions for forfeiture relating to violations of the Policy on Anabolic Steroids and Related Substances or the NFL Policy and Program on Sub-stances of Abuse, or for failing any drug test. A player suspended by the League pursuant to either of those policies for a period encompassing regular season or postseason games shall be required to forfeit any Forfeitable Salary Allocations on a proportionate weekly basis.

The 'out' for Johnson and Philly is probably a matter of whatever supplement he was nailed for isn't technically covered under the policies listed above. Dareus, however, isn't dealing with a supplement, so even though the language for Johnson may have been written in a manner that was applicable, the same couldn't be done with Marcel.

[Mace]

I'd have to see the language of the contract, but the prohibition of such language is spelled out in the CBA, in black and white.

(e)
Drug or Steroid Policy Violations.

Player Contracts may not contain individually negotiated provisions for forfeiture relating to violations of the Policy on Anabolic Steroids and Related Substances or the NFL Policy and Program on Sub-stances of Abuse, or for failing any drug test. A player suspended by the League pursuant to either of those policies for a period encompassing regular season or postseason games shall be required to forfeit any Forfeitable Salary Allocations on a proportionate weekly basis.

The 'out' for Johnson and Philly is probably a matter of whatever supplement he was nailed for isn't technically covered under the policies listed above. Dareus, however, isn't dealing with a supplement, so even though the language for Johnson may have been written in a manner that was applicable, the same couldn't be done with Marcel.


No, I'd guess it's related to "bonus" not salary...or, "guaranteed". He can still earn that same salary.

[Mace]

Johnson signed a five-year, $56 million contract extension this offseason. ESPN's Field Yates reported that Johnson's guarantees, after the $10 million he has already received, would be voided if he had indeed tested positive again. This could amount to about $25 million, but that doesn't mean Johnson would lose the money if he remained under contract - it would mean that if the Eagles cut him, he wouldn't get it.

http://articles.philly.com/2016-08-11/sports/74942218_1_lane-johnson-ken-sarnoff-tackle

So to me anyway, this means he forfeited the term "guaranteed". The terms of his contract are the same he's just not guaranteed.

[YardRat]

No, I'd guess it's related to "bonus" not salary...or, "guaranteed". He can still earn that same salary.

'Forfeitable salary allocations' include bonuses...for that specific league year in which the breach occurred (section b). Also, with respect to other bonuses due to be earned in future years...'a forfeiture may only occur if the forfeitable breach occurs in the same league year in which the bonus is scheduled to be earned' (section d).

I just don't see how language that some expect to be written for Dareus fits in under the CBA.

[Mace]

'Forfeitable salary allocations' include bonuses...for that specific league year in which the breach occurred (section b). Also, with respect to other bonuses due to be earned in future years...'a forfeiture may only occur if the forfeitable breach occurs in the same league year in which the bonus is scheduled to be earned' (section d).

I just don't see how language that some expect to be written for Dareus fits in under the CBA.

Well, I can understand how you don't see it via the wording, but it is so and evidently commonly accepted as there is no talk of it being illegal.

[Mace]

Maybe pertinent :


In almost all situations, when an NFL player is suspended, he forfeits all of the future guarantees in his contract. Even if a signing bonus or base salary is guaranteed for skill, injury and salary cap, a "failure to perform" or "failure to practice" clause makes those guarantees null and void

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000213873/article/examining-aaron-hernandezs-new-england-patriots-contract

[Mace]

I just read through it, 2 clauses down from the one you cited.


(g)Voiding of Guarantees.
Notwithstanding any other provision of this Section 9, a Club and player may negotiate the circumstances under which the guarantee of any unearned Salary (including, without limitation, Paragraph 5 Salary and/or future year roster bonuses, option bonuses or reporting bonuses)may be voided. This Subsec-tion
(g) only applies to the guarantee aspect of the contract provision, and not to the amount that can be earned, and in no way expands the permissible scope of Forfeitable Salary under this Section.

And so.

[stuckincincy]

Why are we so concerned about the financial affairs of multi-milionaires? :scared:

[Mace]

Why are we so concerned about the financial affairs of multi-milionaires? :scared:

Offseason.

[YardRat]

Maybe pertinent :



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000213873/article/examining-aaron-hernandezs-new-england-patriots-contract

Yeah, I just think the first sentence is inaccurate, and as far as Hernandez specifically, section 9(a) covers incarceration being a forfeitable breach.

I did, however, find this under 9(g)...

Notwithstanding any other provision of this Section 9, a Club and player may negotiate the circumstances under which the guarantee of any unearned Salary (including, without limitation, Paragraph 5 Salary and/or future year roster bonuses, option bonuses or reporting bonuses)

may be voided. This Subsec-tion (g) only applies to the guarantee aspect of the contract provision, and not to the amount that can be earned, and in no way expands the permissible scope of Forfeitable Salary under this Section.


...although, considering the last sentence (not expanding the scope of forfeitable salary), I still don't see how additional language could've been added to Dareus' contract to protect the team.

[Mace]

Yeah, I just think the first sentence is inaccurate, and as far as Hernandez specifically, section 9(a) covers incarceration being a forfeitable breach.

I did, however, find this under 9(g)...

Notwithstanding any other provision of this Section 9, a Club and player may negotiate the circumstances under which the guarantee of any unearned Salary (including, without limitation, Paragraph 5 Salary and/or future year roster bonuses, option bonuses or reporting bonuses)

may be voided. This Subsec-tion (g) only applies to the guarantee aspect of the contract provision, and not to the amount that can be earned, and in no way expands the permissible scope of Forfeitable Salary under this Section.


...although, considering the last sentence (not expanding the scope of forfeitable salary), I still don't see how additional language could've been added to Dareus' contract to protect the team.

Same as to Lane Johnson's. Unable to perform not due to injury, skill or cap.

Again, doesn't forfeit the salary, forfeits the guarantee of salary with signee unable to complete terms not due to injury, cap or arbitrary skill, but unable to perform as contracted.

[YardRat]

Same as to Lane Johnson's. Unable to perform not due to injury, skill or cap.

But Dareus is covered under section (e), which prohibits additional language for drug or steroid violations.

[Mace]

But Dareus is covered under section (e), which prohibits additional language for drug or steroid violations.

It's not additional drug language. The athlete forfeits guaranteed by being unable to perform as contracted not related to injury, cap or skill (as covered by the CBA). That could cover jail, crack addiction, not feeling like playing, etc. It's not an explicit drug clause, it's a player's actions outside the CBA clause.

[stuckincincy]

Offseason.

But, but, according to the lights of many on another section of this site, we are advised to hunt down rich folks and string them up. Is there a sports figure/entertainment figure exemption in effect?

[Mace]

But, but, according to the lights of many on another section of this site, we are advised to hunt down rich folks and string them up. Is there a sports figure/entertainment figure exemption in effect?

You lost me. I wouldn't care whatever how rich Dareus is if he wouldn't have gotten himself suspended. I would care even less if it didn't cost the team money to improve itself while paying for his useless.

Dunno the thread you are talking about, it's probably in Spin Zone which you always have to take half serious anyway.

[stuckincincy]

You lost me. I wouldn't care whatever how rich Dareus is if he wouldn't have gotten himself suspended. I would care even less if it didn't cost the team money to improve itself while paying for his useless.

Dunno the thread you are talking about, it's probably in Spin Zone which you always have to take half serious anyway.

Yes - I lost you.

[Skooby]

If you break the law or get caught doing drugs, usually you go to jail. Athletes simply lose a few $ and then say how they'll improve, which I'm cool with. Dareus will not make up to 360 tests a year, there's zero chance. We need to find a way to ship his dumb *** out of town to get value back, no matter how well he plays this season.

This is dude is clueless, it's going to only get worse so we need to cut bait.

[Skooby]

This is looking high now...

[Mr. Pink]

Dammit, Bucky and Sully might be right again...

Who woulda thunk it?