Bosa /Chargers aren't coming together, their best offer is being pulled of the table

[Skooby]

This is getting real ugly between the Chargers and Bosa, I'd take him over the up to 360 tests Dareus (odds on him passing / making all of them is like .01%). We have to eliminate the off-set language & fall into the guidelines & have a rookie contract / guy that should be able to play at a good level. Even if he's not ready to start the first month full-time, neither will Dareus. A change of venue makes sense for both teams.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/08/24/chargers-vow-to-reduce-joey-bosa-offer/

What do you guys think ????

[trapezeus]

yahoo article says the time for a trade has come and gone based on the CBA terms. either they come to terms, or bosa re-enters the draft. but he loses more money if he isn't selected 3rd or better. they have to realize that this is the ebst offer and it's going to get tougher. and the chargers have to realize, there is no compensation if they lose him, so they can't crush the contract to a ridiculously low level. I'm guessing this is solved by Saturday at latest.

[Skooby]

yahoo article says the time for a trade has come and gone based on the CBA terms. either they come to terms, or bosa re-enters the draft. but he loses more money if he isn't selected 3rd or better. they have to realize that this is the ebst offer and it's going to get tougher. and the chargers have to realize, there is no compensation if they lose him, so they can't crush the contract to a ridiculously low level. I'm guessing this is solved by Saturday at latest.

OK cool, I haven't vetted the idea. Thanks.

[Bill Cody]

I like what the Chargers did. There is no reason for the nonsense from Bosa's agent and they are absolutely right that he's not as valuable by holding out as long as he has so it makes perfect sense for them to reduce the offer.

[Skooby]

I like what the Chargers did. There is no reason for the nonsense from Bosa's agent and they are absolutely right that he's not as valuable by holding out as long as he has so it makes perfect sense for them to reduce the offer.

What a way to start a relationship, first real holdout problem since the inception of the rookie wage scale.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

This is a recurring problem with the Chargers. They must be a nightmare to deal with.

[DesertFox24]

I read awhile ago the main issue was offset language. Bosa's camp wanted entire guaranteed money; however, chargers wanted offsets added. Basically if the chargers cut him before his contract is fulfilled (4 years) if another team signs him then the dollar amount of that contract is removed from what the chargers owe him.

In essence if he signs a 4 year 20 million dollar deal but only plays 3 years and then chargers cut him, but he is picked up by browns for 2 million then chargers only owe him 18 million total. He wanted that removed so he got full amount regardless. Which I think is fair if you are the number 3 pick.

I honestly do not understand the issues or how what he is asking compares to others around him.

[Skooby]

Eli was smarter than most, he avoided them right out of the box (Archie is the man).

[Ingtar33]

the chargers aren't the only team that uses offsets in their rookie contract language (most teams do, it's something that was allowed with the rookie pay cap); they are one of a handful of teams that do it with their "other" contracts though. everyone knows they do. it's just what you have to live with when you deal with the chargers.

it's not just the chargers, nearly every single rookie who signed this year has offset language in their deal.

It's obviously collusion the way nfl clubs are using it. but while I would be all over the team if it was anyone else for collusion, the chargers have been using offset language or a form of it in every single contract signed since the last labor deal. Its their way of doing business.

[Scumbag College]

Jordan Gay for Bosa.

Get it done, Whaley!

[Mace]

Courtesy of a Chargers fan at SB Nation (arandom) :


You’re right, it’s stupid.
Offset language doesn’t work the way you think it does though. His money is 100% guaranteed, so if they cut him, they still have to pay him.
BUT, with offset language, if they cut him and he signs with another team for $X, then the Chargers have to pay him $X less. He will still definitely get paid the amount of his contract. But if there were no offsets, then Bosa could actually get more money by playing bad and being cut (he’d get paid by the Chargers, and then also by the new team). Offset language makes it so he gets paid the same as if he weren’t cut.
It’s all guaranteed.
Bosa wants either
1) To be able to "double dip" if he gets cut, getting paid twice, or
2) All his money now so that he could in theory invest it a few months earlier and get extra interest on it
That’s literally all he’s holding out for, and yes, it’s incredibly stupid, and it’s why this is the longest rookie holdout ever under the new CBA, because no one else would think that those things are worth starting so much BS over.

Bosa's going to be sorry, Chargers aren't doing anything weird.

[k-oneputt]

2017 first for Bosa

[Mace]

2017 first for Bosa

No way. Still a chance all the QB's go down the drain and that could be Chad Kelly.

[k-oneputt]

He's versatile enough to play Shag's position.
I would do that in a second, problem is San Diego would not.
Whaley should at least make the call.

[Mace]

He's versatile enough to play Shag's position.
I would do that in a second, problem is San Diego would not.
Whaley should at least make the call.

Shaq is versatile enough to play Shaq's position also, and we already have him.

Furthermore, Bosa can't be traded. He'd have had to have been signed by August 8th to be eligible for trading this year.

[k-oneputt]

Shaq's hurt.
I haven't heard about this 8/8 deadline, please continue

[Mace]

Shaq's hurt.
I haven't heard about this 8/8 deadline, please continue


Even if the Chargers wanted to trade Bosa, they can't. The Aug. 9 deadline to trade a drafted, unsigned rookie passed already.


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/chargers-say-bosa-wont-play-full-16-season-after-rejecting-latest-offer/

Down at the bottom (5. So what's next ?)

Also : http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/08/09/window-closes-on-potential-trade-of-joey-bosa-in-2016/

[k-oneputt]

Thank-you. That ends that scenario.

[Mr. Miyagi]

OK cool, I haven't vetted the idea. Thanks.
You can say that about 95% of the threads you start.

[stuckincincy]

Here's Joey insuring he'd be tossed out of the Fiesta Bowl with this low-speed helmet spear after ND's Jaylon Smith got injured:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFX_uZI20s

[Mace]

Thank-you. That ends that scenario.

It still really looks to me like all Bosa did was make sure he gets less money. Chargers pulled their offer and mean to offer him less now (for games he won't play), and if he goes back into the draft he won't be going 3rd again after sitting out a year.

[DraftBoy]

Thank-you. That ends that scenario.

Not completely, they could still do a sign and trade deal. I just have no idea how you structure it with the bonuses to ensure the Chargers wouldn't be left with dead cap money from the trade.

[Mace]

Not completely, they could still do a sign and trade deal. I just have no idea how you structure it with the bonuses to ensure the Chargers wouldn't be left with dead cap money from the trade.

From what I understand, you can't.


Another possible outcome, though it is very unlikely, would be a sign-and-trade scenario. The Chargers could sign Bosa and then trade him to another team, but San Diego would take a huge cap hit in terms of dead money, so it's unlikely the Chargers would pursue this option considering they would just end up paying Bosa to play for a different team.

http://www.sbnation.com/2016/8/8/12402198/joey-bosa-contract-holdout-san-diego-chargers-why

[Mace]

From what I understand, you can't.



http://www.sbnation.com/2016/8/8/12402198/joey-bosa-contract-holdout-san-diego-chargers-why

Had a cat on my arm. Signing bonus is guaranteed, you can't trade dead cap. It would cost the Chargers 17 million in dead cap.

[DraftBoy]

From what I understand, you can't.



http://www.sbnation.com/2016/8/8/12402198/joey-bosa-contract-holdout-san-diego-chargers-why
Yea with the way that the NFL pro-rates bonuses it would be nearly impossible unless he "waives" the signing bonus and gets it in Year 2 as a roster bonus. And I'm not even sure they can do that but he'd basically have to waive all bonuses and any other cap hits (outside of salary) until he's officially with his new team.

[DraftBoy]

Had a cat on my arm. Signing bonus is guaranteed, you can't trade dead cap. It would cost the Chargers 17 million in dead cap.

I didn't know the CBA guaranteed a Signing Bonus slot as well. Seems odd.

[Turf]

I don't understand all the terms of this ****. But it seems to me there is a cap on what they can offer. They reached it. WTF else does he want? The guy is a tool in the order of Vesey right now.

[Mace]

I didn't know the CBA guaranteed a Signing Bonus slot as well. Seems odd.

He can't waive anything for signing bonus. From what I understand it's predetermined based on percentage of cap by draft slot in the first 4 rounds.

Again, this is from what I understand in looking it up.


As for salaries, the vast majority of drafted players have four years of non-guaranteed minimum salaries, accompanied by a signing bonus that’s not negotiated by the agent, but predetermined by the CBA.



"Vast majority" I believe is first 4 rounds.

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/05/22/nfl-rookie-contract-negotiations

[X-Era]

the chargers aren't the only team that uses offsets in their rookie contract language (most teams do, it's something that was allowed with the rookie pay cap); they are one of a handful of teams that do it with their "other" contracts though. everyone knows they do. it's just what you have to live with when you deal with the chargers.

it's not just the chargers, nearly every single rookie who signed this year has offset language in their deal.

It's obviously collusion the way nfl clubs are using it. but while I would be all over the team if it was anyone else for collusion, the chargers have been using offset language or a form of it in every single contract signed since the last labor deal. Its their way of doing business.If only one team does it I'm missing the collusion basis.

The other way to view this is that allthe other teams aren't having this problem under the same CBA...

It doesn't seem that hard to me. The contract is pretty much known. It's a cheap rate compared to pre-rookie-salary-cap days so what is the problem.

I can't back the Chargers at all here. If they are getting the guy they think they have based on the pick they spent on him they get a steal.

[Mace]

I can't back the Chargers at all here. If they are getting the guy they think they have based on the pick they spent on him they get a steal.

I really don't get this. He gets the same guaranteed money through the life of the deal, but wants to either (no offset) double dip if he's that terrible to get cut in 4 years (before option), or wants more of the money he'll get anyway (I read somewhere it's like 1.5 mil diff) from the Chargers.

It's the same money. It's guaranteed.

[Turf]

I really don't get this. He gets the same guaranteed money through the life of the deal, but wants to either (no offset) double dip if he's that terrible to get cut in 4 years (before option), or wants more of the money he'll get anyway (I read somewhere it's like 1.5 mil diff) from the Chargers.

It's the same money. It's guaranteed.

Tell him to go **** himself. I'm on board with the Chargers. There's a reason all this has been negotiated, to avoid this stuff. He cant get this money as a CEO in 5 years, like he could anyways.

[stuckincincy]

If only one team does it I'm missing the collusion basis.

The other way to view this is that allthe other teams aren't having this problem under the same CBA...

It doesn't seem that hard to me. The contract is pretty much known. It's a cheap rate compared to pre-rookie-salary-cap days so what is the problem.

I can't back the Chargers at all here. If they are getting the guy they think they have based on the pick they spent on him they get a steal.

IIRC, he wants all his guaranteed $ up front, and wants you to sign up to pay that regardless if he every plays a down. You can't recover future money if I go out and do something bad.

That's like hiring a contractor who says pay me for all the materials and labor costs that I haven't yet incurred - now - before I start the job, and too bad for you if I never show up. And if I do show up and dig a ditch somebody falls in, no skin off my nose. You gotta pay me additional $ to get out of the contract.

[Mace]

IIRC, he wants all his guaranteed $ up front, and wants you to sign up to pay that regardless if he every plays a down. You can't recover future money if I go out and do something bad.

That's like hiring a contractor who says pay me for all thematerials and labor costs that I haven't yet incurred - now - before I start the job, and too bad for you if I never show up. And if I dig a ditch somebody falls in, no skin off my nose.

The weird thing to me is that it's still the guaranteed money he's guaranteed. I don't get why anyone is blaming the Chargers. He gets the same money. They offered him up to 15.5 million of 17 million first year that he's going to get anyway. He still gets that 1.5 million and all the rest, because well, it's guaranteed.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

IIRC, he wants all his guaranteed $ up front, and wants you to sign up to pay that regardless if he every plays a down. You can't recover future money if I go out and do something bad.

That's like hiring a contractor who says pay me for all the materials and labor costs that I haven't yet incurred - now - before I start the job, and too bad for you if I never show up. And if I do show up and dig a ditch somebody falls in, no skin off my nose. You gotta pay me additional $ to get out of the contract.

That's how guaranteed money works. It's guaranteed even if you are terrible. This is more like scouring the country to find the best contractor in the USA, paying a massive retainer to secure his exclusive rights, and then saying "Woah! What if you're an incompetent buffoon? I gotta protect myself here!"


The weird thing to me is that it's still the guaranteed money he's guaranteed. I don't get why anyone is blaming the Chargers. He gets the same money. They offered him up to 15.5 million of 17 million first year that he's going to get anyway. He still gets that 1.5 million and all the rest, because well, it's guaranteed.

I'm blaming the Chargers because this always seems to happen to the Chargers. This is, by my count, the sixth franchise type player they've antagonized until it became a public **** flinging contest just in the last 15 years.

[Mace]

I'm blaming the Chargers because this always seems to happen to the Chargers. This is, by my count, the sixth franchise type player they've antagonized until it became a public **** flinging contest just in the last 15 years.

I mean that's fine and all, but it's still the same guaranteed money.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I mean that's fine and all, but it's still the same guaranteed money.

If it's all the same, why not pay it?

[Mace]

Your books. NFL teams have them.

Would anyone reasonably refuse 15.5 million when they're getting the other 1.5 the next year anyway ?

There is no "if" whatever. It's the same GUARANTEED money by slot. It just is.

[Turf]

Bosa's a Vesey. See Marinovich. **** em all.

[Ingtar33]

If only one team does it I'm missing the collusion basis.

The other way to view this is that allthe other teams aren't having this problem under the same CBA...

It doesn't seem that hard to me. The contract is pretty much known. It's a cheap rate compared to pre-rookie-salary-cap days so what is the problem.

I can't back the Chargers at all here. If they are getting the guy they think they have based on the pick they spent on him they get a steal.

2 years ago, simultaneously nearly all the teams independently and without consulting each other in any way whatsoever ;) , suddenly started to demand "offsets" in their rookie contract offers. Prior to this only a couple of teams were using it (Chargers included in that list), and it was a "negotiable" feature of those contracts. In the NFL right now, no team will bend on offsets for rookie deals anymore. It's straight up collusion. And offsets are one of the things the players union is going to try to get rid of next CBA (offsets are ALLOWED in the current CBA; the teams aren't doing anything illegal, it's just curious how it went from a nearly never used contract detail to universally used contract detail which no nfl team will bend on no matter what).

[Skooby]

You can say that about 95% of the threads you start.

My threads get people talking and debating each other, better than talking about S--t in other forums (literally).

[DraftBoy]

He can't waive anything for signing bonus. From what I understand it's predetermined based on percentage of cap by draft slot in the first 4 rounds.

Again, this is from what I understand in looking it up.



"Vast majority" I believe is first 4 rounds.

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/05/22/nfl-rookie-contract-negotiations

Yea, so a sign and trade isn't possible.

Thanks for the clarification!

[DraftBoy]

Your books. NFL teams have them.

Would anyone reasonably refuse 15.5 million when they're getting the other 1.5 the next year anyway ?

There is no "if" whatever. It's the same GUARANTEED money by slot. It just is.

I disagree, if I'm getting guaranteed money, then that should truly mean guaranteed no matter what.

I think the offset language is BS and I know every NFL team does it. If I'm willing to pick you at #4 and guarantee you $17 million and then you suck, well that's kinda on me for having a bad scouting department. I should be on the hook for the full $17 million even if I cut you after Year 2 and you sign three days later for $5 million dollars. That's just the nature of the risk a team takes.

The issue here is that Bosa wants either his entire bonus up front or no offset language. The Chargers want to both defer the bonus and include offset language. From 2012 to 2015 none of the players selected 2nd, 3rd, or 4th agreed to rookie deals that included either a deferment of bonus or offfsets. To suddenly ask this of Bosa because Wentz and Elliott's agents don't have the balls to stand up for their clients doesn't mean Bosa should bend.

In the end this is on the NFLPA for allowing the owners to bend them over on the rookie cap pool during the last labor negotiations.

[Skooby]

I disagree, if I'm getting guaranteed money, then that should truly mean guaranteed no matter what.

I think the offset language is BS and I know every NFL team does it. If I'm willing to pick you at #4 and guarantee you $17 million and then you suck, well that's kinda on me for having a bad scouting department. I should be on the hook for the full $17 million even if I cut you after Year 2 and you sign three days later for $5 million dollars. That's just the nature of the risk a team takes.

The issue here is that Bosa wants either his entire bonus up front or no offset language. The Chargers want to both defer the bonus and include offset language. From 2012 to 2015 none of the players selected 2nd, 3rd, or 4th agreed to rookie deals that included either a deferment of bonus or offfsets. To suddenly ask this of Bosa because Wentz and Elliott's agents don't have the balls to stand up for their clients doesn't mean Bosa should bend.

In the end this is on the NFLPA for allowing the owners to bend them over on the rookie cap pool during the last labor negotiations.

Bosa stands to lose ~ $9 Million guaranteed if he goes to the next draft, seems like a terrible move for him regardless of what the NFLPA did in the past.

[DraftBoy]

Bosa stands to lose ~ $9 Million guaranteed if he goes to the next draft, seems like a terrible move for him regardless of what the NFLPA did in the past.

He's definitely taking a huge risk, I'm not sure I would do it.

[Forward_Lateral]

I thought the CBA prevented stuff like this from happening? I didn't think draft picks could hold out anymore?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Bosa stands to lose ~ $9 Million guaranteed if he goes to the next draft, seems like a terrible move for him regardless of what the NFLPA did in the past.

He also might fall to a better organization. If he goes back in the draft and ends up on the Seahawks or something, his long term prospects look much better.

[trapezeus]

I think its hard to vilify either side on this. I see both sides.

the chargers have a negotiable point with the offset language. and frankly if they don't get that relief on a #3 pick, if they cut him early, they shouldn't eat the whole cap implication if another team is willing to pick him up. they should get the minimized difference.

And I usually side with the players. these contracts are fairly easy to get out of, and the game has become so much more violent, just in 10-15 years the injuries have mounted. so yes, $1-2MM difference is impactful for a player and meaningless for an organization.

the risks exist to both sides.

I can't recall a team losing a pick as high as #3 with no compensation. if they don't sign him, and they aren't allowed to trade him and get some value of it, it 1. sets an awful precedent for players who don't want to play for an org or city and 2. they were a bad team last year that didn't get the benefit of a good player right away.

for bosa, he played well at Ohio St, but will possible run the risk of being viewed as high maintenance, and be out of football for a year. he isn't getting drafted at #3 again. so his slotting of income will fall. sure he could end up at a more stable team, but he'll be running the same injury risks at a lower guaranteed income. is that worth it to him?

considering those risks to both sides, they need to get to some mid point and settle. there is too much for them to both lose. and if it doesn't get done, shame on both of them for letting ego get in the way. this is a minor point in the grand scheme of things.

and lastly, perhaps the cap hit the chargers take isn't a big concern to sign and trade him. They have been cheap the last 5-10 years and the franchise location is in the air. perhaps having that out to say, "we can't spend because we have $17MM locked up" actually is something they'd prefer. just speculation, but it kind of makes sense to me.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I can't recall a team losing a pick as high as #3 with no compensation.

Tampa Bay once used the #1 overall on Bo Jackson, who lost his college eligibility as a result and told them to GFY. He fell to the 7th in the next year.

[Skooby]

Tampa Bay once used the #1 overall on Bo Jackson, who lost his college eligibility as a result and told them to GFY. He fell to the 7th in the next year.

Raiders said thank you very much, that was a different time though. Bo also knows.

[Bill Cody]

I disagree, if I'm getting guaranteed money, then that should truly mean guaranteed no matter what.

I think the offset language is BS and I know every NFL team does it. If I'm willing to pick you at #4 and guarantee you $17 million and then you suck, well that's kinda on me for having a bad scouting department. I should be on the hook for the full $17 million even if I cut you after Year 2 and you sign three days later for $5 million dollars. That's just the nature of the risk a team takes.



I see what you're saying but without the offsets aren't you actually giving a player an INCENTIVE to suck? I'm normally pro player but you have to wonder a bit when a player is willing to play hardball when he's going to get paid the full guaranteed money, just not a BONUS for sucking. That isn't logical no matter what was done in the past in my opinion.

[Bill Cody]

He also might fall to a better organization. If he goes back in the draft and ends up on the Seahawks or something, his long term prospects look much better.

That seems like a huge stretch to me, maybe that's what Bosa's agent is selling him but it strikes me as terrible advice. A wasted year is more than just the loss of money this year it's another year further from full free agency where the real big money is. If a player performs he's going to do extremely well whether he's with SD or anyone else. The only players worried about scraping every last dime off the table are either short sighted (because the rookie deals are pretty much set in stone) or they're worried they WON'T perform. In the first case it's probably the agent that's trying to make a name for himself, in the 2nd it raises red flags about the player, Aaron Maybin comes to mind.

[stuckincincy]

That seems like a huge stretch to me, maybe that's what Bosa's agent is selling him but it strikes me as terrible advice. A wasted year is more than just the loss of money this year it's another year further from full free agency where the real big money is. If a player performs he's going to do extremely well whether he's with SD or anyone else. The only players worried about scraping every last dime off the table are either short sighted (because the rookie deals are pretty much set in stone) or they're worried they WON'T perform. In the first case it's probably the agent that's trying to make a name for himself, in the 2nd it raises red flags about the player, Aaron Maybin comes to mind.

That is an excellent observation.

[Mr. Pink]

Tampa Bay once used the #1 overall on Bo Jackson, who lost his college eligibility as a result and told them to GFY. He fell to the 7th in the next year.

That's also because Bo went and played baseball.

The Raiders were willing to take a risk that Bo actually wanted to play NFL football and not just baseball.

His fall in the draft had nothing to do with the fact he was off football for a year or teams thought he lost ability, it's that he may have decided F it, I don't want to play football anymore or what really happened that he would only play like 9 games a year.

So there was a lot of risk in selecting him and certainly more risk than teams wanted to invest in.

[trapezeus]

bo went seventh overall, or in the seventh round in the second draft?

[stuckincincy]

The Bo Jackson story:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/14559718/bo-jackson-10-things-know-25th-anniversary-final-nfl-game

[Mr. Pink]

bo went seventh overall, or in the seventh round in the second draft?

7th round.

[Night Train]

People forget that there still a chance the Chargers move to L.A. next year. They are strictly thinking of themselves and saving $ at the players expense, just in case.

Then again, it's not the Bills so who really cares outside of 20 threads a day Skooby...

[trapezeus]

I think with this being a bit of an unusual case, it is somewhat bills related because our DL is largely injured and without the details about the CBA, a lot of us thought, we'll should we reach out to SD and see if there is something to offer? but now we know its pretty hard to make a trade. and frankly bosa who didn't have many redflags at the draft, comes off as a huge prima donna. SD has had issues signing people for a while, but they've never gone public about the difficulties of signing someone. so this is very different and takes them to the edge of no man's land.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

That's also because Bo went and played baseball.

The Raiders were willing to take a risk that Bo actually wanted to play NFL football and not just baseball.

His fall in the draft had nothing to do with the fact he was off football for a year or teams thought he lost ability, it's that he may have decided F it, I don't want to play football anymore or what really happened that he would only play like 9 games a year.

So there was a lot of risk in selecting him and certainly more risk than teams wanted to invest in.


Yeah, I was bringing that up as an example of a team eating a higher pick. A better example of a player sitting a year would be Mike Williams from USC, who still went top 10 after missing a year.

[Mr. Pink]

Yeah, I was bringing that up as an example of a team eating a higher pick. A better example of a player sitting a year would be Mike Williams from USC, who still went top 10 after missing a year.

Much better example.

I think Bosa would still end up being a top 10 pick if he ultimately decides to re-enter the draft next year...it'll cost him a few dollars and will get him a year further from FA though.

[stuckincincy]

Much better example.

I think Bosa would still end up being a top 10 pick if he ultimately decides to re-enter the draft next year...it'll cost him a few dollars and will get him a year further from FA though.

Dunno. His motivation to perform is under serious question. And were I a GM, I'd have to be concerned about the effect inking him would have on my current players who are already giving their best efforts to get wins for their team.

[DraftBoy]

I see what you're saying but without the offsets aren't you actually giving a player an INCENTIVE to suck? I'm normally pro player but you have to wonder a bit when a player is willing to play hardball when he's going to get paid the full guaranteed money, just not a BONUS for sucking. That isn't logical no matter what was done in the past in my opinion.

Not if he wants a second contract and to get seriously paid.

[trapezeus]

I guess SD's public outburst puts that doubt into other GM's minds as well. so I guess that makes more sense on why they did it that way. make him seem like damaged goods.

[Skooby]

Then again, it's not the Bills so who really cares outside of 20 threads a day Skooby...

I started none today, lowering my average to 19.9 a day.

[stuckincincy]

I started none today, lowering my average to 19.9 a day.

Add some more, please. Days can go by when this site inches along like the tiny waves lapping up against an old sailing ship mired in the doldrums. Heh - mixed metaphores rule!

[Mace]

I disagree, if I'm getting guaranteed money, then that should truly mean guaranteed no matter what.

Yes, but this is the whole thing in a nutshell. It IS truly guaranteed.

If the last year of his contract says he gets 2 million, he gets 2 million. Period. Offset language means if he was bad enough to get cut, and some team gives him 100k, he still gets 2 million. The Chargers just pay 1,900,000 of it, while the new team pays 100k. He gets 2 million.

Thing is, if you're bad enough to get cut, teams don't just cut cheap players with possibility, they pick up the option and then tags and UFA start, why should he get to increase his salary ? First of all, he's going on waivers, a team claims him. He still gets 2 million dollars. They are going to pay him lower, that's right, he was cut, they don't want to pay him 2 million dollars, San Diego is still on the hook for the guaranteed money minus his new salary. Why should he get 2 million dollars from San Diego, plus say a million from a team who wants him to report, essentially rewarding him for being terrible in San Diego and getting cut under guaranteed contract ? That's double dipping.

As for his guarantee, he's getting 17 million signing bonus. 15.5 up front and 1.5 next year is unreasonable ? He's getting the whole 17 million regardless.

Put the whole thing into real world context. You're guaranteed the next 4 years of salary no matter how you do, with a huge bonus, guaranteed. Are you going to haggle that if you're terrible and get fired (you're still guaranteed the whole sum), you should be able to make even more off of your terrible performance ? This sort of puts the employers position in a different light. You're still getting the same sum regardless, the employer your dorked and the employer you joined are just sharing the burden of your career path.

He gets the same guaranteed money. No offset gets him more for being cut. Still makes no sense to me.

I'm kind of amazed I'm arguing about Joey Bosa this passionately and he's not even on the Bills, but I guess I'm that bored at this point in the offseason.

[Skooby]

Add some more, please. Days can go by when this site inches along like the tiny waves lapping up against an old sailing ship mired in the doldrums. Heh - mixed metaphores rule!

I appreciate that, it's hard when you perpetually get grief when pointing things out that might be unobvious. Some things may even seem crazy but there's other angles that need to viewed.

[feldspar]

Spanos pulled the Chargers' latest offer after failing to reach agreement on a deal that would pay Bosa 85 percent of his $17 million signing bonus during this calendar year. That offer was up from San Diego's starting point of 60 percent.

"I'm blown away," Spanos told the San Diego Union-Tribune. "At all costs I wanted to avoid going down this road. They made it overly clear we had no other option."

Now that the Chargers are resigned to the contract impasse's deleterious effect on Bosa's rookie season, Spanos is pulling no punches.

"It's absolutely asinine," Spanos said. "He would have gotten more cash in this calendar year than anyone except Carson Wentz."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000689877/article/chargers-exec-bosas-stance-absolutely-asinine

WTF does this guy want, or think he deserves? He's going to turn down getting 85% of his guaranteed money this year? Why exactly? He's definitely putting a lot of unnecessary pressure on himself by doing this...this is not the way to become a fan-favorite. He'd better play well once he finally arrives, or they won't let him be.

[Skooby]

Spanos pulled the Chargers' latest offer after failing to reach agreement on a deal that would pay Bosa 85 percent of his $17 million signing bonus during this calendar year. That offer was up from San Diego's starting point of 60 percent.

"I'm blown away," Spanos told the San Diego Union-Tribune. "At all costs I wanted to avoid going down this road. They made it overly clear we had no other option."

Now that the Chargers are resigned to the contract impasse's deleterious effect on Bosa's rookie season, Spanos is pulling no punches.

"It's absolutely asinine," Spanos said. "He would have gotten more cash in this calendar year than anyone except Carson Wentz."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000689877/article/chargers-exec-bosas-stance-absolutely-asinine

WTF does this guy want, or think he deserves? He's going to turn down getting 85% of his guaranteed money this year? Why exactly? He's definitely putting a lot of unnecessary pressure on himself by doing this...this is not the way to become a fan-favorite. He'd better play well once he finally arrives, or they won't let him be.

He's been convinced that he's the S--t, life doesn't hand you $17 M for sure without some type of luck. If anything happens to him, his might run out.

[DraftBoy]

Yes, but this is the whole thing in a nutshell. It IS truly guaranteed.

No, it's truly not. A guaranteed contract means that regardless of what happens to me you as the organization owes me X dollars. You don't suddenly get taken off the hook because you can't scout or put me in a position to fail. Why should I support your risk mitigation techniques and take on all the risk? If I go out there and under preform not only do I hurt my current earnings but I also hurt my future earnings because the league wants to double dip.


Thing is, if you're bad enough to get cut, teams don't just cut cheap players with possibility, they pick up the option and then tags and UFA start, why should he get to increase his salary ? First of all, he's going on waivers, a team claims him. He still gets 2 million dollars. They are going to pay him lower, that's right, he was cut, they don't want to pay him 2 million dollars, San Diego is still on the hook for the guaranteed money minus his new salary. Why should he get 2 million dollars from San Diego, plus say a million from a team who wants him to report, essentially rewarding him for being terrible in San Diego and getting cut under guaranteed contract ? That's double dipping.

I get that if this is waivers but the offset isn't just limited to waivers. That's my issue with it.


As for his guarantee, he's getting 17 million signing bonus. 15.5 up front and 1.5 next year is unreasonable ? He's getting the whole 17 million regardless.

I don't know, but if you tell me I'm getting a $17 million signing bonus, I'm gonna be expecting a check for $17 million once I sign, you wouldn't?


Put the whole thing into real world context. You're guaranteed the next 4 years of salary no matter how you do, with a huge bonus, guaranteed. Are you going to haggle that if you're terrible and get fired (you're still guaranteed the whole sum), you should be able to make even more off of your terrible performance ? This sort of puts the employers position in a different light. You're still getting the same sum regardless, the employer your dorked and the employer you joined are just sharing the burden of your career path.

You can't do that because the difference between how a regular corporation operates in the NFL are not even remotely comparable.


He gets the same guaranteed money. No offset gets him more for being cut. Still makes no sense to me.

There is no guarantee he gets more, if he gets cut going into the final year with a $5 million guaranteed amount left but signs a 1 year deal for $2 million he's not suddenly going to be making seven. He still only gets five million he was already owed, that's basically free labor for the team who signed him.


I'm kind of amazed I'm arguing about Joey Bosa this passionately and he's not even on the Bills, but I guess I'm that bored at this point in the offseason.

No worries, college football kicks off tonight, so we should be good to go after this.

[DraftBoy]

Spanos pulled the Chargers' latest offer after failing to reach agreement on a deal that would pay Bosa 85 percent of his $17 million signing bonus during this calendar year. That offer was up from San Diego's starting point of 60 percent.

"I'm blown away," Spanos told the San Diego Union-Tribune. "At all costs I wanted to avoid going down this road. They made it overly clear we had no other option."

Now that the Chargers are resigned to the contract impasse's deleterious effect on Bosa's rookie season, Spanos is pulling no punches.

"It's absolutely asinine," Spanos said. "He would have gotten more cash in this calendar year than anyone except Carson Wentz."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000689877/article/chargers-exec-bosas-stance-absolutely-asinine

WTF does this guy want, or think he deserves? He's going to turn down getting 85% of his guaranteed money this year? Why exactly? He's definitely putting a lot of unnecessary pressure on himself by doing this...this is not the way to become a fan-favorite. He'd better play well once he finally arrives, or they won't let him be.

He wanted either his entire signing bonus up front or he wanted no offsets. No other pick at #2-5 was asked to give up either from 2012-2015.

[Bill Cody]

Not if he wants a second contract and to get seriously paid.

There's ALWAYS a bigger incentive to play well but you can't deny removing the offsets creates an incentive in the other direction that isn't there with the offsets. Obviously a lot of teams including SD have woken up to this and they want no part of it which makes sense to me.

Example: Let's say Bosa gets hurt and then isn't really the same guy after he returns and he gets frustrated. With no offsets he can play all kinds of games until he's cut and then some team like NE gives him a 2nd chance. So then he goes Rocky and puts the pedal to the metal all the while SD is still paying him. That's nonsense.

[feldspar]

Bosa is no saint...he's no Charger, either.

he's just being an idiot at this point, IMO. Or maybe it's his ma or his agent. But this is just stupid already.

[Skooby]

Bosa is no saint...he's no Charger, either.

he's just being an idiot at this point, IMO. Or maybe it's his ma or his agent. But this is just stupid already.

It's like not cashing a lottery ticket on time, it's sorta crazy.

[feldspar]

It's like not cashing a lottery ticket on time, it's sorta crazy.

I don't know what the difference is to Bosa whether he has to wait a matter of months to get the remaining 15% of his guaranteed money, or signing bonus, or whatever. I mean, WTF? What exactly does he need to buy or invest in in the meantime?

You are right. He's set to be a rich man, but refuses to play the game, if you will. This should not be that big of a deal at all.

Sounds to me like he's banking on the possibility that he won't be good at the the thing he's actually being paid for. I can't imagine the *****-fest that would ensue had something like this happen with the Bills. But, again, I think Bosa has egg on his face with a sense of entitlement at this point. All this training he's missed will not help his play either, obviously. Dunno who is on "his side" anymore. I'm not.

[Mr. Pink]

I just think Bosa has no desire to play for the Chargers and is quibbling about any little thing to get his way.

At this point almost everyone publicly is ridiculing the Chargers for what they're doing in this entire process and they might have pushed things beyond the point of no return.

Unless there is a sign and trade, which I dunno if it even happens in the NFL, I don't see Bosa ever signing a contract with the Chargers.

[Turf]

I say **** the entitled jackass. He's alarming the entire league of his mentality and is only hurting himself in San Diego and elsewhere.

[DraftBoy]

There's ALWAYS a bigger incentive to play well but you can't deny removing the offsets creates an incentive in the other direction that isn't there with the offsets. Obviously a lot of teams including SD have woken up to this and they want no part of it which makes sense to me.

I disagree, take Sammy Watkins for example. He was the #4 pick in 2014 and his contract does not contain any offset language. Do you think he has any kind of an incentive to not try hard? A guy is either going to want to make the most of his opportunity or he isn't, the inclusion of offset language doesn't do anything to add incentive for poor play.


Example: Let's say Bosa gets hurt and then isn't really the same guy after he returns and he gets frustrated. With no offsets he can play all kinds of games until he's cut and then some team like NE gives him a 2nd chance. So then he goes Rocky and puts the pedal to the metal all the while SD is still paying him. That's nonsense.

That's the risk you take when you draft any player. That's also why the owners got the rookie cap in the first place to limit their risk. Injuries happen and some times guys who get a second or third chance finally bloom.

[Mr. Pink]

I say **** the entitled jackass. He's alarming the entire league of his mentality and is only hurting himself in San Diego and elsewhere.

The thing is he's not.

The rest of the league is pretty alarmed at the Chargers for their behavior in this whole thing.

[Bill Cody]

I disagree, take Sammy Watkins for example. He was the #4 pick in 2014 and his contract does not contain any offset language. Do you think he has any kind of an incentive to not try hard? A guy is either going to want to make the most of his opportunity or he isn't, the inclusion of offset language doesn't do anything to add incentive for poor play.

Obviously you're wrong. If you were right teams wouldn't be demanding it. Or is your position that no player would ever take advantage of the contract just because most don't? Or that the teams are just being dicks? No, there's a reason there's an argument here.




That's the risk you take when you draft any player. That's also why the owners got the rookie cap in the first place to limit their risk. Injuries happen and some times guys who get a second or third chance finally bloom.

Only if the team and the player agree it is. The offsets are not illegal. Your argument is that it wasn't done in the past so it shouldn't be done now. To which I say it was dumb before and it's dumb now.

[DraftBoy]

Obviously you're wrong. If you were right teams wouldn't be demanding it. Or is your position that no player would ever take advantage of the contract just because most don't? Or that the teams are just being dicks? No, there's a reason there's an argument here.

Not one player from 2012-2015 who was drafted 2-5 was asked to include offsets, now suddenly its being asked. But it couldn't be that the NFL owners are simply trying to find a new way within the current labor agreement to mitigate their risk while the player has to just suck it up and take it? That doesn't make any sense.



Only if the team and the player agree it is. The offsets are not illegal. Your argument is that it wasn't done in the past so it shouldn't be done now. To which I say it was dumb before and it's dumb now.

We agree, the idea of offsets is dumb.

[Skooby]

Chargers don't normally draft in the top 3 so it's new ground for them, some capitulation needs to happen on the Chargers behalf and his behalf. The whole thing just seems stupid.

[stuckincincy]

Fun Chargers fact: In 1985, they drafted OL Jim Lachey in the 1st round. The next time they drafted an OL in the first was in 2013 - DJ Fluker. That's a 28-year stretch.

[Skooby]

Fun Chargers fact: In 1985, they drafted OL Jim Lachey in the 1st round. The next time they drafted an OL in the first was in 2013 - DJ Fluker. That's a 28-year stretch.

Wow, that's a long long time.

[Mr. Pink]

Holy crap...miracles do happen.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000692119/article/chargers-sign-joey-bosa-to-fouryear-contract

[Skooby]

Holy crap...miracles do happen.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000692119/article/chargers-sign-joey-bosa-to-fouryear-contract

/ End thread.

[Joe Fo Sho]

So who caved?

[Bill Cody]

Not one player from 2012-2015 who was drafted 2-5 was asked to include offsets, now suddenly its being asked. But it couldn't be that the NFL owners are simply trying to find a new way within the current labor agreement to mitigate their risk while the player has to just suck it up and take it? That doesn't make any sense.

Not trying to find found and a perfectly sensible one. The only scenario it matters is if a player was cut, that won't happen under a rookie contract if the player is performing.





We agree, the idea of no offsets is dumb.

I suspect Bosa caved. He changed lead negotiators.

[Skooby]

Not trying to find found and a perfectly sensible one. The only scenario it matters is if a player was cut, that won't happen under a rookie contract if the player is performing.






I suspect Bosa caved. He changed lead negotiators.

It's the exact opposite, SD caved. SD has had holdouts for all their stars at one time or another, they are very difficult to work with and have been.

[Mace]

So who caved?

San Diego, he got the exact same contract he was going to get all along, just with all 17 mil signing bonus up front.

[DraftBoy]

Good for Bosa, he held strong and Chargers caved because they knew they were in the wrong.

[Mace]

Good for Bosa, he held strong and Chargers caved because they knew they were in the wrong.

I still don't get why because it's the exact same guaranteed money over term, but probably time to forget about it until it happens to us.

[Skooby]

SD laid down to get it done, the tough talk didn't work:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/08/29/chargers-sweeten-language-of-training-camp-roster-bonuses-signing-bonus-payout-to-get-deal-done/

SD hasn't drafted in the top 3 in a long time and it was way before this new system was in place, still this didn't need to go that far.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I still don't get why because it's the exact same guaranteed money over term, but probably time to forget about it until it happens to us.

If he's going to be smart and invest the money, it would be best for him to get it all up front so his money could start earning him more money instead of just letting it sit in Spanos' pocket. I think that's really the only difference.

[Skooby]

If he's going to be smart and invest the money, it would be best for him to get it all up front so his money could start earning him more money instead of just letting it sit in Spanos' pocket. I think that's really the only difference.

Pretty valid point and it's in his bank already so odds of something going wrong are not that high.

[Mace]

If he's going to be smart and invest the money, it would be best for him to get it all up front so his money could start earning him more money instead of just letting it sit in Spanos' pocket. I think that's really the only difference.

Honestly, it would be smarter to learn how to invest the money and play the tax bracket game with less tax hit per year. The sheer volume of guaranteed money is hardly relevant unless he thinks his financial management team will be smarter this year than they will be next year, in which case he chose the wrong financial management team.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Honestly, it would be smarter to learn how to invest the money and play the tax bracket game with less tax hit per year. The sheer volume of guaranteed money is hardly relevant unless he thinks his financial management team will be smarter this year than they will be next year, in which case he chose the wrong financial management team.

Can he play the tax bracket game? Isn't he going to be in the highest tax bracket pretty much no matter how they divide his salary? Admittedly, I don't really know what the tax bracket game is. Just that if you earn over $415k, you're in the highest one.

Maybe he just wants all that money so he can snort it up his nose faster. A lot of people do that, too.

[Skooby]

Can he play the tax bracket game? Isn't he going to be in the highest tax bracket pretty much no matter how they divide his salary? Admittedly, I don't really know what the tax bracket game is. Just that if you earn over $415k, you're in the highest one.

Maybe he just wants all that money so he can snort it up his nose faster. A lot of people do that, too.

A team is less likely to recover money after paying it versus it already being paid as it's already guaranteed. He's already in the highest tax bracket either way, don't you worry about that.

[DraftBoy]

I still don't get why because it's the exact same guaranteed money over term, but probably time to forget about it until it happens to us.

Despite many of the lies that SD put out, Bosa's camp was always consistent. Either they wanted all the money up front (doesn't really matter why) or no offset language. They got what they asked for and signed the deal.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

as much as we used to ***** about ralph being cheap, it seems that he was a saint compared to mike brown or the spanos'

[Bill Cody]

It's the exact opposite, SD caved. SD has had holdouts for all their stars at one time or another, they are very difficult to work with and have been.

Bosa gave some too. It's not all paid up front and there is still offset language. Bosa got 85% of the bonus up front and some give on roster bonus qualification.

[Skooby]

Bosa gave some too. It's not all paid up front and there is still offset language. Bosa got 85% of the bonus up front and some give on roster bonus qualification.

Good point.