We've invested more draft picks into our starting OL than the Pats have...

[X-Era]

The Pats win. They have had changes in their OL. Yet they still win. So it works for them. But we constantly have this criticism that we are doing it wrong and not investing enough in the OL. Let's compare:

Glenn- 2nd round
Cog- FA
Wood- 1st round
Miller- 3rd round
Henderson- 7th round, Mills- FA

Kujo- 2nd round
C Rich- 5th round (cut now)

Solder- 1st round
Kline- UDFA
Andrews- UDFA
Cooper- Trade
Cannon- 5th round

Mason- 4th round
Karras- 6th round
Fleming- 4th round

Let's get the arguments out of the way:
1. The Pats win so it doesn't matter what they do
2. They have Brady and Belicheck so it doesn't matter what they do

I'd offer:

1. Saying we ignore the OL in the draft is just plain false
2. A perennial winner puts about the same amount of attention to their OL from the draft
3. That same winner has way less draft picks starting
4. The Bills are just as good at landing good players through the draft on the OL as the Pats

It begs the questions:

Is it totally fine to not heavily draft OL and still build a winner?

I think we draft OL with the same frequency that we have been and if we have the same number of players turn out to be good we are doing just fine... I think we are building the OL correctly. They won't all be studs... Kujo, Cyril make that point. We probably will draft a few more next year. And in the past 10 years we would have totaled about as many picks on the OL as a perennial winner like the Pats.

We're not doing it wrong.

[Jaybird]

Ya their QB play just might be a little factor

[X-Era]

Ya their QB play just might be a little factorThat didn't take long.

And we've invested more on the starting OL... Doesn't compensate?

[X-Era]

If not the Pats, who is the model? What team should we emulate? How many draft picks are they starting?

Tennessee gave up the most sacks per game at 3.4, Bills were 2.6 (22nd best), Pat were 2.3 (19th best)... Team giving up the least sacks per game? LA Rams at 1.1

Titans have:

Lewan- 1st round
Spain- UDFA
Jones- FA
Warmack- 1st round
Conklin- Rookie 1st round

Rams have:

Robinson- 1st round
Wichmann- 6th round
Barnes- FA
Brown- 3rd round
Saffold- 2nd round (2010)

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-per-game?date=2016-02-08

[justasportsfan]

Ya their QB play just might be a little factor

Plus they lucked out on BB. The greatest HC-Qb combination IMO .

[Mr. Pink]

It's not even their QB. A lot of their plays are quick hits, quick slant to Edelman over the middle, screen to a RB, hot read at the line.

This isn't to say Brady doesn't take a lot of sacks either, as among active players he's the second most sacked QB in the game today...11th all time.

But if your o-line struggles in pass pro, you can run a variation of the WCO and "hide" their flaws.

[Mr. Pink]

Plus they lucked out on BB. The greatest HC-Qb combination IMO .

Otto Graham/Paul Brown beg to differ.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I don't think you should be using the current O-Line for the Pats for this example. They were their worst unit last year and probably cost them a Superbowl. Belichick had to convince his previously retired O-line coach to come back and work for him this offseason.

Historically, when I think of the Pats O-Lineman during this dynasty, these are the names that come to my mind:

Matt Light - 2nd Round
Damien Woody - 1st Round
Dan Koppen - 5th Round
Logan Mankins - 1st Round
Stephen Neal - Undrafted
Nick Kaczur - 3rd Round
Sebastian Vollmer - 2nd Round
Dan Connelly - Undrafted (Free agent pickup, was cut by Jacksonville after his 2nd year)
Nate Solder - 1st Round

There's probably a couple guys I'm forgetting. But sure, you can get good talent from late round picks or undrafted picks. I'm not really sure that's your point though. 2/3 of those guys were drafted in the 1st 3 rounds, though.

I don't think the Bills problem is a lack of trying. It's just a lack of finding the talented guys. I don't think our O-line is terrible, but I sure think it could be improved. I feel like we're in the same boat as every team in the NFL though, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions. Everyone wants to improve their O-line.

I also don't care where the guys come from, they could be undrafted, high draft picks, low draft picks, trades, free agency, or whatever. It's all about the talent they put on the field, not the effort they make, or where they find the guys. No one cared that Jason Peters was undrafted.

[X-Era]

Plus they lucked out on BB. The greatest HC-Qb combination IMO .
Excuse #2. I don't think we can totally ignore their OL and investment in it just because they have Brady and Belicheck.

[X-Era]

I don't think you should be using the current O-Line for the Pats for this example. They were their worst unit last year and probably cost them a Superbowl. Belichick had to convince his previously retired O-line coach to come back and work for him this offseason.

Historically, when I think of the Pats O-Lineman during this dynasty, these are the names that come to my mind:

Matt Light - 2nd Round
Damien Woody - 1st Round
Dan Koppen - 5th Round
Logan Mankins - 1st Round
Stephen Neal - Undrafted
Nick Kaczur - 3rd Round
Sebastian Vollmer - 2nd Round
Dan Connelly - Undrafted (Free agent pickup, was cut by Jacksonville after his 2nd year)
Nate Solder - 1st Round

There's probably a couple guys I'm forgetting. But sure, you can get good talent from late round picks or undrafted picks. I'm not really sure that's your point though. 2/3 of those guys were drafted in the 1st 3 rounds, though.

I don't think the Bills problem is a lack of trying. It's just a lack of finding the talented guys. I don't think our O-line is terrible, but I sure think it could be improved. I feel like we're in the same boat as every team in the NFL though, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions. Everyone wants to improve their O-line.

I also don't care where the guys come from, they could be undrafted, high draft picks, low draft picks, trades, free agency, or whatever. It's all about the talent they put on the field, not the effort they make, or where they find the guys. No one cared that Jason Peters was undrafted.I absolutely don't care where the players come from. It's probably my biggest point. It doesn't have to be the draft.

The Pats have made plenty of picks throughout the years. We have too. This regime has done a good job on the OL in my opinion. Previous regimes missed on players like Mike Williams, etc...

We've spent a comparable amount of picks and money to the other teams.

[OpIv37]

It doesn't matter who you emulate if you make poor choices. We can draft OL as much or more than the Pats, but if the guys we draft aren't good, it doesn't matter. There's a difference between doing the right thing and doing the thing correctly.

[justasportsfan]

Excuse #2. I don't think we can totally ignore their OL and investment in it just because they have Brady and Belicheck.

not saying we should ignore the ol but a great HC and a great Qb is better than building an OL with all 1st rounders. Someones has to place those players in situations to succeed.

[X-Era]

More data... The Bills are 18th in the league for offensive line spending at 15.7% of their cap. Pats are 7th with 20.9%. Titans are 23rd with 14%. Raiders are #1 with 24%

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/offensive-line/

Raiders were 16th in pass yards and 28th in rush yards

[X-Era]

It doesn't matter who you emulate if you make poor choices. We can draft OL as much or more than the Pats, but if the guys we draft aren't good, it doesn't matter. There's a difference between doing the right thing and doing the thing correctly.
So you will make the argument that can't be proven that our players blow vs. other teams players?

I see a pretty similar investment in money and picks from us and our players are playing adequately.

We don't need to spend more. We don't need to draft more. And I feel we don't need significant upgrades. I think if you look around the league we're on par.

We should spend some picks in the next few years to push backup spots and maybe land a starter. But it isn't our biggest need area and we aren't doing it wrong.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I absolutely don't care where the players come from. It's probably my biggest point. It doesn't have to be the draft.

The Pats have made plenty of picks throughout the years. We have too. This regime has done a good job on the OL in my opinion. Previous regimes missed on players like Mike Williams, etc...

We've spent a comparable amount of picks and money to the other teams.

I agree that our line is better than most give it credit for. It's hard to argue that the league's best rushing offense had a terrible offensive line. You could probably argue that it's a mix between an average line and a great at scrambling QB, but you can't say that our line is crap.

The only way to know for sure is to watch the game. There are so many variables that come into play that you can't just go by stats alone to prove anything.

[X-Era]

I agree that our line is better than most give it credit for. It's hard to argue that the league's best rushing offense had a terrible offensive line. You could probably argue that it's a mix between an average line and a great at scrambling QB, but you can't say that our line is crap.

The only way to know for sure is to watch the game. There are so many variables that come into play that you can't just go by stats alone to prove anything.
Absolutely agree.

There is a significant contingent that constantly goes after the line and how we don't address it. But as I look at it I don't see that take.

[OpIv37]

I agree that our line is better than most give it credit for. It's hard to argue that the league's best rushing offense had a terrible offensive line. You could probably argue that it's a mix between an average line and a great at scrambling QB, but you can't say that our line is crap.

The only way to know for sure is to watch the game. There are so many variables that come into play that you can't just go by stats alone to prove anything.

So our players don't suck and we don't draft poorly and our coaches don't suck but we haven't made the playoffs in 16 years. Ok....

I really don't think the OL is that great. They run block well but their pass blocking leaves a lot to be desired. People criticize Tyrod for not going over the middle, and rightfully so, but how often did he have the luxury of standing in the picket and throwing toward the middle? It wasn't many times.

[cookie G]

Well, your "analysis" fails to mention Sebastian Vollmer, a 2nd round pick, former pro bowler,who was just put on PUP 3 days ago.

It also fails to mention that the "trade" for Jonathan Cooper required giving up their best defensive player in PB'er Chandler Jones (they were also given a low end 2nd round pick). Cooper is a former no. 1 pick, as was Jones. That's a pretty high investment.

So before Vollmer's injury, this is how their starting 5 was envisioned.

Solder- 1st round
Kline- UDFA
Andrews- UDFA
Cooper- 1st
Vollmer- 2nd round

And you obviously didn't pay attention to the Pats last year. They lost one of their bigger investments, Nate Solder after 4 games. For a while, they were able to get by for a bit with Vollmer at LT, but he's a better RT than LT. '

They tried a youth movement in the interior, but it didn't really work too well for the most part. Hence, the trade for Cooper.

Later in the season, Vollmer missed some games, and played hurt.

The result...they lost 5 of their last 8 games, after losing the guys they invested the most in. In those 5 losses, they gave up 15 sacks, as opposed to 23 in the other 13 games. They ran for 100 yards once in those games.

Anyone who watched them at all knew that the O line demise was the no. 1 reason for their late season woes.

Now the big question...

How's your "we can get by with 2nd rate players on the Oline" theory worked for...oh...say..the past 16 years.?

[Joe Fo Sho]

So our players don't suck and we don't draft poorly and our coaches don't suck but we haven't made the playoffs in 16 years. Ok....

Is that what I wrote? Because I feel like that's not at all what I wrote. I think what I said is that our offensive line is better than 'crap.' I believe I may have even said that you could argue that's it's average. The jump you made seems a tad ridiculous, especially since I was only talking about the offensive line and didn't mention anything about coaching or like 80% of our other draft picks.

"You could say our offensive line is average." - Joe Fo Sho

"HOMER!" - OP being ridiculous

Sheesh..


I really don't think the OL is that great. They run block well but their pass blocking leaves a lot to be desired. People criticize Tyrod for not going over the middle, and rightfully so, but how often did he have the luxury of standing in the picket and throwing toward the middle? It wasn't many times.

How often did any QB have the luxury of standing in the pocket and throwing toward the middle? Was it many times or not many times?

[OpIv37]

Is that what I wrote? Because I feel like that's not at all what I wrote. I think what I said is that our offensive line is better than 'crap.' I believe I may have even said that you could argue that's it's average. The jump you made seems a tad ridiculous, especially since I was only talking about the offensive line and didn't mention anything about coaching or like 80% of our other draft picks.

"You could say our offensive line is average." - Joe Fo Sho

"HOMER!" - OP being ridiculous

Sheesh..



How often did any QB have the luxury of standing in the pocket and throwing toward the middle? Was it many times or not many times?

It wasn't aimed at him. It was aimed at you. You jumped through hoops to find one very specific area where the Bills resemble the Pats: OL drafting. My point is a) our line isn't as great and b) just because we do things in a similar manner to them doesn't mean we do it as well as they do it.

The more general point I was making (and it's not just aimed at you): I constantly come to this site to read about how the Pats aren't that great and we really aren't that bad, and it's just getting ridiculous because the results on the field are so lopsided in their favor.

[cookie G]

I agree that our line is better than most give it credit for. It's hard to argue that the league's best rushing offense had a terrible offensive line. You could probably argue that it's a mix between an average line and a great at scrambling QB, but you can't say that our line is crap.

The only way to know for sure is to watch the game. There are so many variables that come into play that you can't just go by stats alone to prove anything.

It isn't as horrible as it had been in past years. Even the bad pass protectors can run block pretty well.

Pass protection is another matter. We had the least amount of pass attempts last year, (or near the bottom), but still gave up 42 sacks...one of the worst sacks/attempt ratios in the league.

On the left side, Glenn, Incognito and Wood are average to good in pass pro. They weren't elite, and never will be..but you can maybe live with that.

The right side was another story...bad to horrible. Here's hoping Miller gets better. Mills, is what he is..a below average journeyman RT.

I'd be happier if Kujo could play on the right side like he did in preseason on the left this preseason. He will always get beat by speed rushers, but I didn't see him get bull rushed too often. You can compensation against the speed rush by having someone chip the rusher and he'd be fine.. but then again, maybe there is something to the argument that his knee doesn't allow him to play as well on the right.

[Frenchman]

Pass protection will be a huge thing. If you want to protect the QB now with $90M. And that is what could have cost Tyrod injuries. Is not being protected enough.

[Joe Fo Sho]

It wasn't aimed at him. It was aimed at you. You jumped through hoops to find one very specific area where the Bills resemble the Pats: OL drafting. My point is a) our line isn't as great and b) just because we do things in a similar manner to them doesn't mean we do it as well as they do it.

Are you under the impression that I started this thread?

I think we are nothing like the Patriots. I even said that using the Pat's offensive line was not a good comparison.


I don't think you should be using the current O-Line for the Pats for this example.

That's the first sentence I wrote.


The more general point I was making (and it's not just aimed at you): I constantly come to this site to read about how the Pats aren't that great and we really aren't that bad, and it's just getting ridiculous because the results on the field are so lopsided in their favor.

When did I said anything like this?

[DynaPaul]

Dallas OL.

[YardRat]

You don't have to draft a starting offensive line (especially a bunch of firsts and seconds)...one of the best olines in history (Dallas of the early '90's) had a top six built from mid-low draft picks (Gogan,8th)(Williams and Stepnoski,3rd), street free agents (Newton), other team's cuts (Gesek, a Raider 10th rounder), and at least one that switched from dline to oline (Tuinei...and another UDFA). Like QB (or many other positions), however, if a team largely ignores the line in the draft and continues to choose corners, safeties, lbers, rb's etc over olinemen they are not giving them a chance to 'hit' on anything.

[Joe Fo Sho]

It isn't as horrible as it had been in past years. Even the bad pass protectors can run block pretty well.

Pass protection is another matter. We had the least amount of pass attempts last year, (or near the bottom), but still gave up 42 sacks...one of the worst sacks/attempt ratios in the league.

On the left side, Glenn, Incognito and Wood are average to good in pass pro. They weren't elite, and never will be..but you can maybe live with that.

The right side was another story...bad to horrible. Here's hoping Miller gets better. Mills, is what he is..a below average journeyman RT.

I'd be happier if Kujo could play on the right side like he did in preseason on the left this preseason. He will always get beat by speed rushers, but I didn't see him get bull rushed too often. You can compensation against the speed rush by having someone chip the rusher and he'd be fine.. but then again, maybe there is something to the argument that his knee doesn't allow him to play as well on the right.

It's hard to argue with any of that.

I still feel like we're in a similar boat as the majority of the league.

[Mace]

It's all about finding and developing good players. Doesn't matter how much you invest or where, if you end up with good players.

Comparing the Bills to other teams has to factor in QB, OL coach, offense type, scouting staff, philosophy, etc. So I don't. If I did, it still astonishes me some teams, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis (huge) come to mind, flail endlessly trying to find adequate linemen to protect their moneymakers. Some teams do it naturally and don't have an elite moneymaker at QB, some teams compensate with a scrambler, some with a quick release offense, but you have to look at how it works for you.

What I see though is three good players, Glenn, Incognito, and Woods, who I feel can pass protect and run block. I then see an iffy Miller (though he certainly has year 2 to improve), iffy Mills, and iffy Henderson. Henderson embodies the issue, he wasn't that good and now we're all hoping he gets back up to speed because he was at least consistently middlin'.

Past that we have no proven depth. Kouandjio having a good preseason (admittedly taking a step up, finally) and the fact Patrick Lewis was ok somewhere else but couldn't keep a job there, and Henderson working his way back from a devastating condition is not proven depth.

Are they cumulatively bad, no. Are they cumulatively good, no. Could this year prove them to be either ? Yes. It's easier for an o-linemen to run block. Roman is the right guy to have here for rushing. He's said his rushing offense changes, well good, how does the right side hold up with that ? Airball.

What happens if we have to win shootouts against a stacked box, Taylor needs time, can they give it to him ? Do they pop off as many long runs this year, can they do it consistently ? I don't know.

You can't say we're doing it right though until it consistently works, and I don't see that.

Could you have gotten better players than Velasco, Lewis, Groy, Mills, Richardson, Kouandjio instead of drafting Dezmin Lewis, Tony Steward, Karlos Williams, etc ? Probably.

But saying "we're on par" with most of the league is the definition of an 8-8 team. We need to be better than them. Are we ? No. Congratulations, you just validated a middlin' line on a middlin' team.

It has to get better.