OC Roman : College QBs 'not being trained' to thrive in NFL

[Mace]

It's just not as easy as it seems.


"Nobody can really figure out [if they can thrive in an NFL offense] until you get your hands on them, 'cause they're not being trained to do that," Roman told NFL.com's Mike Silver, who wrote an extensive feature on the challenges of the position (http://www.nfl.com/qb2016). "They're being trained to win the next game in college so the college coach can keep his job."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000695841/article/bills-oc-college-qbs-not-being-trained-to-thrive-in-nfl

[stuckincincy]

Did he just discover that?

[Night Train]

A Captain Obvious moment of the highest order.

College coaches prefer athletic option QB's who can win for the school. Don't blame them one bit.

But embrace the tank for the next great ready pro QB ! ( who doesn't exist ) :rolleyes:

[Turf]

If the Bills "tank", it won't be because they planned it.

[Mace]

A Captain Obvious moment of the highest order.

College coaches prefer athletic option QB's who can win for the school. Don't blame them one bit.

But embrace the tank for the next great ready pro QB ! ( who doesn't exist ) :rolleyes:

That's the whole thing though. Some people stubbornly refuse to accept QB's don't come ready to Peyton right out of the box, think any QB can thrive in any offense, etc etc....

[Mr. Pink]

The thing is, that's not even true.

Look at NFL offenses now, almost every team runs some version of a spread offense which is the exact offense that's run in the NCAA.

The whole option offense idea isn't even used by that many teams in college anymore and isn't used by the teams that are consistently top 10. Long gone are the days of Eric Crouch.

The only real difference between college and the pros now is the speed of the game.

[DraftBoy]

The thing is, that's not even true.

Actually it is, and it goes much deeper than college coaches.

[Mr. Pink]

Actually it is, and it goes much deeper than college coaches.

It's not true.

It's exactly why QBs can come into this league and light it on fire in their first season. They're playing in pretty much the exact systems they were playing in college and for the most part, unless their high school team is run heavy, the same system they played in high school.

Why do you think Winston and Mariotta looked good last year? They ran basically the same offense they ran in college.

The only adjustments these guys face in their rookie years is the speed difference. As their careers progress then the playbook expands, but they're still running a version of the spread offense.

Guys like Mariotta and Winston would have never even seen the field 25 years ago in their rookie year or would have looked completely lost trying to make the adjustment from the spread to the pro style offense. A guy like Antwaan Randle-El would have been a QB in today's NFL, not the WR that the Steelers turned him into.

[DraftBoy]

It's not true.

It's exactly why QBs can come into this league and light it on fire in their first season. They're playing in pretty much the exact systems they were playing in college and for the most part, unless their high school team is run heavy, the same system they played in high school.

Why do you think Winston and Mariotta looked good last year? They ran basically the same offense they ran in college.

The only adjustments these guys face in their rookie years is the speed difference. As their careers progress then the playbook expands, but they're still running a version of the spread offense.

Guys like Mariotta and Winston would have never even seen the field 25 years ago in their rookie year or would have looked completely lost trying to make the adjustment from the spread to the pro style offense. A guy like Antwaan Randle-El would have been a QB in today's NFL, not the WR that the Steelers turned him into.

You're missing the point Roman is making and mine. QB's are not trained in the classic QB skills anymore (ex. how to stand in the pocket and make multiple pre-snap and post-snap reads) basically they are identified in youth ball as a good athlete and put at QB because they are able to make things happen and can throw the ball a little. Basic mechanics like release point, footwork, drop back, where to hold the ball, etc. are not taught because all coaches care about at nearly every level is having an athlete who can make plays happen and win games, not guys who can actually become good QB's.

I don't think Randle-El would of been a QB in today's NFL for the same reasons why guys like Nick Marshall, Denard Robinson, Julian Edelman, Michael Robinson, Brad Smith, Josh Cribbs, Matt Jones, Joe Webb, Braxton Miller, Terrell Pryor, and many others were/are not QB's in the league. For every Winston and Mariota you can name, I can name at least five spread guys who either didn't make it at all or had to switch positions.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Hasn't this essentially always been the case?

[Mr. Pink]

You're missing the point Roman is making and mine. QB's are not trained in the classic QB skills anymore (ex. how to stand in the pocket and make multiple pre-snap and post-snap reads) basically they are identified in youth ball as a good athlete and put at QB because they are able to make things happen and can throw the ball a little. Basic mechanics like release point, footwork, drop back, where to hold the ball, etc. are not taught because all coaches care about at nearly every level is having an athlete who can make plays happen and win games, not guys who can actually become good QB's.

I don't think Randle-El would of been a QB in today's NFL for the same reasons why guys like Nick Marshall, Denard Robinson, Julian Edelman, Michael Robinson, Brad Smith, Josh Cribbs, Matt Jones, Joe Webb, Braxton Miller, Terrell Pryor, and many others were/are not QB's in the league. For every Winston and Mariota you can name, I can name at least five spread guys who either didn't make it at all or had to switch positions.

Braxton Miller isn't a good example, Ohio State turned him into a WR because of their logjam at QB and the fact he missed a year due to injury. Denard Robinson is the same circumstance, Michigan transitioned away from him at QB, in his senior year, in favor of Gardner who was another spread QB. Your only real example of a guy that discredits my today's NFL comment is Nick Marshall. Other guys like Matt Jones, Brad Smith, Michael Robinson, Josh Cribbs were all transitioned by the old guard mentality the league had 10 years+ ago plus. I guess you can take Terrelle Pryor too but he was originally a QB in the NFL and he wasn't a total dumpster fire at the position. He was certainly better than Matt Flynn and Matt McGloin.

As for the athletes who can make plays and win games, that's the majority of the NFL coaches opinion now too. Ironically enough, the comments coming from Roman when he's coached Kaepernick and Taylor as his QBs who are the epitome of exactly what he's preaching against.

Go down NFL rosters of each team...the pocket passer is all but dead now. Even the Patriots with Tom Brady run a spread offense not that he's a prototype of a spread QB, but that's their offense.

[DraftBoy]

Braxton Miller isn't a good example, Ohio State turned him into a WR because of their logjam at QB and the fact he missed a year due to injury. Denard Robinson is the same circumstance, Michigan transitioned away from him at QB, in his senior year, in favor of Gardner who was another spread QB. Your only real example of a guy that discredits my today's NFL comment is Nick Marshall. Other guys like Matt Jones, Brad Smith, Michael Robinson, Josh Cribbs were all transitioned by the old guard mentality the league had 10 years+ ago plus. I guess you can take Terrelle Pryor too but he was originally a QB in the NFL and he wasn't a total dumpster fire at the position. He was certainly better than Matt Flynn and Matt McGloin.

As for the athletes who can make plays and win games, that's the majority of the NFL coaches opinion now too. Ironically enough, the comments coming from Roman when he's coached Kaepernick and Taylor as his QBs who are the epitome of exactly what he's preaching against.

Go down NFL rosters of each team...the pocket passer is all but dead now. Even the Patriots with Tom Brady run a spread offense not that he's a prototype of a spread QB, but that's their offense.

You made the claim that guys like Randle-El would be QB's in today's NFL system, but now you want to pick and choose who gets to fit that narrative? All the guys I named were spread QB's (aside from Robinson) were they not? How about Blake Bell and Randall Cobb? Hell even Devin Gardner had to switch positions as he entered the NFL.

[Mr. Pink]

You made the claim that guys like Randle-El would be QB's in today's NFL system, but now you want to pick and choose who gets to fit that narrative? All the guys I named were spread QB's (aside from Robinson) were they not? How about Blake Bell and Randall Cobb? Hell even Devin Gardner had to switch positions as he entered the NFL.

Guys that entered the league 10+ years ago, isn't today, is it?

As I said the only guy on your list that fits your point of today's NFL is Nick Marshall.

It doesn't count when you pick a guy like Josh Cribbs the powers that be decided he wasn't a QB back in 2005.

And look at what that did for Gardner? Nothing, he's simply not an NFL talent level player. FWIW, the Steelers when they signed him had him lining up at QB during practices before releasing him. And apparently he's currently a QB in some Japanese Football League.

Not that Randle El would have made it at the NFL level as a QB but he would have been given the chance at doing so.

Hell if Cam Newton was 10 years older, he likely would have never been an NFL QB.

So unless you're making the case that the early 2000s and Todays NFL is the same, how am I picking and choosing?

[DraftBoy]

Guys that entered the league 10+ years ago, isn't today, is it?

As I said the only guy on your list that fits your point of today's NFL is Nick Marshall.

That's crap.


It doesn't count when you pick a guy like Josh Cribbs the powers that be decided he wasn't a QB back in 2005.

Yes, upon league entry. He was a QB all four years at Kent State.


And look at what that did for Gardner? Nothing, he's simply not an NFL talent level player. FWIW, the Steelers when they signed him had him lining up at QB during practices before releasing him. And apparently he's currently a QB in some Japanese Football League.

Ok...that has nothing to do with the discussion.


Not that Randle El would have made it at the NFL level as a QB but he would have been given the chance at doing so.

That's an assumption without basis.


Hell if Cam Newton was 10 years older, he likely would have never been an NFL QB.

I know Mack Brown agrees with you, but I don't think that's the case. You forget about Daunte Culpepper already?


So unless you're making the case that the early 2000s and Todays NFL is the same, how am I picking and choosing?

I'm not saying the same, but similar.

[mdcas22]

I think the biggest issue is not use to being under center, most college teams now run the read option while very few Pro teams run it. its just a matter of time before we see more nfl team's run the read option.

[Mace]

The thing is, that's not even true.

Look at NFL offenses now, almost every team runs some version of a spread offense which is the exact offense that's run in the NCAA.

The whole option offense idea isn't even used by that many teams in college anymore and isn't used by the teams that are consistently top 10. Long gone are the days of Eric Crouch.

The only real difference between college and the pros now is the speed of the game.

Reads are not half or quarter field. Defenders are bigger, faster, more to see and interpret, offensive personnel are more varied, run more complicated routes against more complex defenses with better athletes, though. QB's aren't lighting in on fire their first year. The last successful ones (sustained) was Luck (pro-style) in 2012, then Wilson 2012, then Newton 2011.

That's going back 59 drafted QB's over 5 years now.

You can't really say Winston 22td/15 int 58.3%, or Mariota 19/10, 62.2% with a combined record of 9-19 have exactly lit the league on fire. Derek Carr (pro style) might be coming into his own, but in general the list going back to Luck includes 16 QB's not named Luck in the first 3 rounds, with some game to prove yet.

[Ingtar33]

It's not true.

but it is true.

I'll explain where you're making your mistake. you are not giving the defense improvement at the pro level any recognition at all.

HIGH SCHOOL
The skills that make a dominant QB in high school with the spread offense is the QB is the best athlete on the field (something that used to be said about the RB). They're typically the biggest fastest kid on the field. usually they're a multi sport star, basically they're the best athlete in their school. They run a 4.5, they're 6' (or bigger), and they throw about as good as a 9th grader who's been taught how to play quarterback correctly. The thing is the 1 or 2 read spread offenses are about exposing all the mediocre athletes on the defense by flooding points of the field, and springing people open by 10+ yards. And if they're not open by 10+ yards the QB will tuck and run.

COLLEGE
The skills that make a dominant QB in college are a bit higher level then those in high school. The athletes on the defense are much better overall, so the "average" high school QBs have to transition to other positions like WR, TE, RB, or even Safety or CB. That said your QB in a 1 or 2 read college style spread offense is probably the best athlete on the team. He's the guy who is an Olympic tryout level sprinter, or the guy who could star on the D1 Basketball or Baseball teams as well (sometimes he does). He can throw better then the high school varient, maybe even make a few throws in tight windows, but generally 95% of the guys he's throwing to are open by 5yards, or completely uncovered. And if there isn't a guy who's broken open like that he's probably taking off running. the reason this QB still works at the college level is because of several things. One the level of athleticisim in college VARIES greatly from school to school, conference to conference and even position by position. There aren't enough top level athletes to fill a defense, unless you're a top level program, and even then only 4 or 5 of those athletes are good enough to play at the pro level. Which leads us to why the spread QBs make horrible pro QBs

PRO
When these spread QBs get to the pros, their superior physiques become "ordinary". No longer are they twice as fast as everyone else, stronger then everyone else. No longer do they have that one WR who is faster, stronger then everyone on the defense to throw to. See all the best athletes, fill the NFL rosters. there no longer is a gaping talent gap between the physical abilities of the best team in the league and the worst. EVERY team is moderately competitive. All the positions are manned by physical freaks. As a result the 1 or 2 read spread, which does such a good job at lower levels of exposing the bad athletes, no longer has bad athletes to expose. No longer are guys running through the secondary completely uncovered, no longer are guys "covered" by a guy 5 steps behind him. Now the CBs are just as good as the WRs, and are GLUED to them. The windows open and close in half a second. Most of the time you have to throw to spots ANTICIPATING the WR can get open enough to catch the ball while it's in the air. where as the college QB basically can get away with 3 yard accuracy (meaning no matter who he throws it to the window will probably be at least 3 yards in every direction around the WR), he's now dealing with windows barely larger then the football. The min skills required to throw the Ball at the pro level are many levels higher then are required to throw it at the college level. The number of QBs who can dominate with their physical skills at the pro level can be counted on one hand, truly the elite of the elite.

-The prostyle QBs in highschool and college are few and far between. Prostyle offenses depend on a skilled pocket passer. those skills take a long time to develop. Furthermore prostyle offenses tend to be built assuming roughly equal talent level between the teams, so in a way I GET why there aren't many teams in college running them. Its hard to recruit QBs with prostyle talent. The pool is much smaller then the pool of top level athletes.

as for winston and mariotta - Jumbo Fisher's offense, while not a true pro style offense, teaches many of the same concepts. Winston had a fully developed toolset required for the progame. The biggest black mark in my book about him was from all reports he was an entitled idiot. that type of person RARELY puts in the effort to bridge the gap to the pro level. Mariotta was a different cat. Mariotta is one of the guys who's physical talents STILL make him stand out at the pro level. Furthermore he's always had top level work ethic, if not a top level arm. Mariotta is one of those guys who probably would have been a 1st round QB drafted out of in ANY system in college, and if anything going to oregon HURT his development and preparation for the progame. That said, pointing out two mediocre/bottom tier rookie QBs isn't really a great argument. The real test will be if they can get better.

[Mr. Pink]

I can point out that more than half of the starting QBs in the NFL are now or were spread QBs in college.

The NFL is changing to more accommodate these guys as they come up to the pro game. Which is how guys like Mariotta can enjoy success as a rookie, does that mean he still doesn't have to work to do? Of course it doesn't but for the most part long gone are the days of guys like Akili Smith looking completely lost at the NFL level. Now we have guys like EJ Manuel and Geno Smith who don't look good, but they don't look as god awful terrible as Akili did. So why do you think that is?

All of the players are getting bigger, faster, stronger so the talent level gap is staying about the same, albeit are a high level. So you can't just throw a blanket comment out that EJ Manuel looked better because he's world's better than Akili. Of course, he's better than Akili just based on the times but so is all the competition as well. The real reason why these guys don't look completely lost is because the NFL is becoming a mirror of the college game so the only real adjustment these guys have to make is to account for playing against entire teams that are fast and talented with no real weak links - at least in comparison to the college game. They're given simplistic one read offenses with a limited playbook that utilizes their skillsets so sitting on the bench for a year or 3 years to learn the nuances and complexity no longer exists.

Other guys through time learn those nuances and become even better QBs than they were in college. Drew Brees is a perfect example of this. The Boilermakers were referred to as basically basketball on grass when he was there. Alex Smith is another example of that, he started poorly and got better as his career progressed. Other guys played in a more pro style offense in college and now play out of a spread offense, Tom Brady is an example. The first year Brady played out of a spread offense is the best year he's had in his career throwing the ball up to Randy Moss and quick hitters to Welker.

So that is how Roman is flat out wrong. Guys like Mariota wouldn't have seen the field as a rookie or been thrown to the wolves and looked as lost as Akili Smith did. A guy like Cam Newton likely would have never been an NFL QB, I saw Culpepper brought up but he threw for almost 10,000 yards over his college career and was more than a one year wonder at QB in college like Newton was. Michael Robinson is a pretty good comparison as he too was a one year wonder at QB for Penn State and was a bigger guy as he was turned into a FB at the NFL level.

Alex Smith, RGIII, Ryan Tannehill, Tyrod Taylor, Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Trevor Siemian, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Andy Dalton, Brock Osweiler, Blake Bortles, Mariota all played in the spread offense at college or the NFL level. That's 13 of the AFC starting QBs who played in the spread offense at some point.

Why people completely discount that baffles me. The NFL isn't just moving to be more accommodating to the way the college game is played, they've already moved.

[ticatfan]

Guys that entered the league 10+ years ago, isn't today, is it?

As I said the only guy on your list that fits your point of today's NFL is Nick Marshall.

It doesn't count when you pick a guy like Josh Cribbs the powers that be decided he wasn't a QB back in 2005.

And look at what that did for Gardner? Nothing, he's simply not an NFL talent level player. FWIW, the Steelers when they signed him had him lining up at QB during practices before releasing him. And apparently he's currently a QB in some Japanese Football League.

Not that Randle El would have made it at the NFL level as a QB but he would have been given the chance at doing so.

Hell if Cam Newton was 10 years older, he likely would have never been an NFL QB.

So unless you're making the case that the early 2000s and Todays NFL is the same, how am I picking and choosing?If Flutie was younger ,he would be a starting QB in the NFL today.

[Victor7]

In other news the sun is hot, water is wet and we will all die some day!