Can we get a real quarterback please?

[Mr. Miyagi]

Tyrod is garbage. Can't see more than a third of the field at a time. I'd rather have Blake Bortles.

Please, no more crappy running QBs. I'm done with these guys.

[Novacane]

He won't even throw the ball away. He's getting worse

[justasportsfan]

If the jags dont renew Bortles , Id sign him to TTs contract. Rather have him and Shady

[Mr. Miyagi]

See? It's crap like this TD run that keep luring us back in to this perpetual cycle.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UPw-3e_pzqU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Novacane]

It doesn't lure me back in. Tyrods not the answer

[BillsImpossible]

Sammy Watkins hasn't been 100% all season, Woods is out, Powell is now out, and Goodwin is not a #2 WR, or even a #3 slot receiver.

With the lack of talent Taylor has had to play with this season, it is remarkable that he's thrown only 4 INTs.

Tyrod doesn't turn the ball over.

That alone makes up for a lack of fancy stats.

[BillsImpossible]

The Jaguars have a very good, top 10 defense.

Tyrod went 12-18 for a 67% completion rate, threw for 166 yards, ran for a TD and didn't turn the ball over.

Would you rather have the sexy stats, like the Seattle game and a loss instead?

[streetkings01]

Bortles was 13/26 126 yds 2td.........looks like a Tyrod Taylor type game. I'd pass on Bortles

[Mr. Pink]

The Jaguars have a very good, top 10 defense.

Tyrod went 12-18 for a 67% completion rate, threw for 166 yards, ran for a TD and didn't turn the ball over.

Would you rather have the sexy stats, like the Seattle game and a loss instead?

22nd against the run and 25th in points allowed and give up 26.5 points a game.

Very good defense? Ok.

[mdcas22]

alls you have to do is go back and look at the pass route on the Charles Clay pass interference call, Charles was wide open across the middle the whole route until the end of the route where the DB closed enough to get called for the penalty. TT should have seen him earlier and thrown the ball over the middle, instead he waited till the end of the route then threw the ball. this has been one consistence with his pass's.

[Thurmal]

The death-knell is when he's got all day, and still will bounce to the outside and then run out of bounds two yards behind the line of scrimmage. I don't know what it is; can't read defenses, too short, whatever. Guy's gotta get the ball out; a big shot downfield for a pick is essentially a punt. At least he's trying.

[Mr. Cynical]

alls you have to do is go back and look at the pass route on the Charles Clay pass interference call, Charles was wide open across the middle the whole route until the end of the route where the DB closed enough to get called for the penalty. TT should have seen him earlier and thrown the ball over the middle, instead he waited till the end of the route then threw the ball. this has been one consistence with his pass's.
This happens. ALL. THE. TIME.

I get he's a bit hamstrung with Watkins, Woods, etc., being out or gimped, but at the same time he HAS to hit those crossing routes. It's mind numbing how this is literally happening every single game. I mean, what happens in the film room?

"Hey T, um...see that big guy over the middle? Try throwing to him."

6 games later....

"Hey T, um...you need glasses or something?"

Mind numbing.

[mdcas22]

This happens. ALL. THE. TIME.

I get he's a bit hamstrung with Watkins, Woods, etc., being out or gimped, but at the same time he HAS to hit those crossing routes. It's mind numbing how this is literally happening every single game. I mean, what happens in the film room?

"Hey T, um...see that big guy over the middle? Try throwing to him."

6 games later....

"Hey T, um...you need glasses or something?"

Mind numbing.

I just don't think he can see the field good enough. Buffalo screwed up by not doing what Washington done with Cousin's and just waited till years end and then talked turkey. the guy is gonna end up with around 18 TD's for 16 games and around 8 INT's which just are not NFL franchise QB stats.

[mdcas22]

The Jaguars have a very good, top 10 defense.

Tyrod went 12-18 for a 67% completion rate, threw for 166 yards, ran for a TD and didn't turn the ball over.

take away the one pass to Watkins and he has just a little over 100.. he is just not good enough.
Would you rather have the sexy stats, like the Seattle game and a loss instead?

[swiper]

Meanwhile Fitzpatrick is holding his own against the Patriots.

[paladin warrior]

Nope

[Novacane]

Meanwhile Fitzpatrick is holding his own against the Patriots.


Fitz sucks!

[BertSquirtgum]

At least some people are finally seeing that he blows. I thought it was obvious last year.

[YardRat]

This is easy-peasey...when watching the game, count how many times Toyota gets the ball out of his hand at the end of the drop, and compare it to other QB's that are even average, let alone elite. There is no comparison.

[mdcas22]

Bortles was 13/26 126 yds 2td.........looks like a Tyrod Taylor type game. I'd pass on Bortles

but Blake has one if not the worst o-line in football and has very limited talent at the skilled position's. TT is loaded at all position's.

[Novacane]

Loaded at all positions? Are you kidding me? I'm no Tyrod defender either.

[justasportsfan]

Fitz sucks! he plays to win which is why hes got so many ints. He has a brain his arm cant cash in.

TT is the opposite. Scared to take chances amd cant read Ds.

While Sammy wouldnt have much long balls, Woods, Clay OLeary, etc. Would thrive better with Fitz.

[BertSquirtgum]

Sammy Watkins hasn't been 100% all season, Woods is out, Powell is now out, and Goodwin is not a #2 WR, or even a #3 slot receiver.

With the lack of talent Taylor has had to play with this season, it is remarkable that he's thrown only 4 INTs.

Tyrod doesn't turn the ball over.

That alone makes up for a lack of fancy stats.

**** your bull**** excuses. Tyrod is not good enough and never will be.

[cookie G]

but Blake has one if not the worst o-line in football and has very limited talent at the skilled position's. TT is loaded at all position's.

Limited talent at the skill positions?

he's got 2 receivers who eclipsed 1000 yards in the past 2 years. Plus a TE who had 12 touchdowns in each of his 2 years before going to Jax. Plus Marquis Lee as his 3rd receiver.

For all of his throwing...do you know how many times Jax has scored 25 points or more?

Once...in 11 games.

They've been held below 20 in more than half of their games.

And that was against some stellar defenses such as the Packers, the Raiders, the Titans and the Chargers.

I can understand this grass is always greener stuff....but people need to know what weeds look like too.

[Novacane]

Yep. fitz sucks.

[Mace]

Limited talent at the skill positions?

he's got 2 receivers who eclipsed 1000 yards in the past 2 years. Plus a TE who had 12 touchdowns in each of his 2 years before going to Jax. Plus Marquis Lee as his 3rd receiver.

For all of his throwing...do you know how many times Jax has scored 25 points or more?

Once...in 11 games.

They've been held below 20 in more than half of their games.

And that was against some stellar defenses such as the Packers, the Raiders, the Titans and the Chargers.

I can understand this grass is always greener stuff....but people need to know what weeds look like too.

Besides his weird windup throwing motion which just pops out randomly, was noticing too he also has a tendency to delay his delivery even worse with ball pats before going into the windup.

[jimmifli]

Yep. fitz sucks.

It feels like we all know something is coming, just a matter of what and when in the 4th quarter it comes...

[alohabillsfan]

but Blake has one if not the worst o-line in football and has very limited talent at the skilled position's. TT is loaded at all position's.


Lmao most ridiculous comment ever, I live in Jacksonville and no better.

[mdcas22]

Loaded at all positions? Are you kidding me? I'm no Tyrod defender either.

if you go by salary's and draft picks yes, our o-line is ten times better and our wr's all 3rd rounders or better not to mention Sammy being 2 1sts, McCoy another high draft pick.

[Mace]

if you go by salary's and draft picks yes, our o-line is ten times better and our wr's all 3rd rounders or better not to mention Sammy being 2 1sts, McCoy another high draft pick.

Maybe it's just me, but I go more by how they play.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

This board has lost its goddamned mind. Pining for Blake Bortles and Fitz for Christ's sake, listen to yourselves.

[Mr. Pink]

While I don't necessarily agree with mdcas, I can see where he's coming from.

Bortles threw for 1400 more yards than Taylor last year, so of course his receivers will have better numbers simply because they get the ball more.

Does that mean that Allen Robinson is a better WR than Sammy Watkins? Does that means that Allen Hurns is a better WR than Robert Woods?

Obviously we know that Shady is better than Yeldon, Ivory, Robinson whoever the Jags decide to actually use.

And o-line wise Bortles gets sacked a lot more than Tyrod does, but I don't know if that's because of o-line play or the QBs themselves. Bortles holds the ball too long patting it and Tyrod holds the ball too long trying to run. The Bills are obviously a better run blocking line as Gillislee can run better per carry than the Jags guys and I wouldn't say that talent wise he's better than the three.

[swiper]

I was not pining for Fitzpatrick. And Bortles clearly hasn't been what he was supposed to be to date.

But I'd give you Derek Carr, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins. All players the Bills could have had. And at least one source says Matt Barkley played a decent game today.

The Bills were never really in a position to get Bortles, so that doesn't really matter. And the Jaguars likely won't let him walk.

I don't think that Taylor is the problem, but he's not the answer either. Without McCoy and possibly Watkins playing today, the Bills don't win. So the Bills come and go as McCoy goes. Taylor lacks the ability to put this team on his shoulder and take it to a win on any given weekend. And, as someone pointed out, he's getting more and more comfortable with pulling out and running every week instead of standing in the pocket and finding someone else to get the yards. That is a sure sign of a short career for a running QB.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I was not pining for Fitzpatrick.

Even if you weren't, you brought him up and others were.


But I'd give you Derek Carr, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins. All players the Bills could have had.

Carr is looking great, but Prescott is a rookie who fell into the best situation in the NFL, and Cousins would have been run out of Buffalo if he'd opened his career the way he did. This game alone (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201409250was.htm) would have turned half the board on him.


And at least one source says Matt Barkley played a decent game today.

And?


The Bills were never really in a position to get Bortles, so that doesn't really matter. And the Jaguars likely won't let him walk.

I wouldn't want him even if they did. The guy is horrendous.

I don't think that Taylor is the problem, but he's not the answer either. Without McCoy and possibly Watkins playing today, the Bills don't win. So the Bills come and go as McCoy goes. Taylor lacks the ability to put this team on his shoulder and take it to a win on any given weekend. And, as someone pointed out, he's getting more and more comfortable with pulling out and running every week instead of standing in the pocket and finding someone else to get the yards. That is a sure sign of a short career for a running QB.
I tend to agree with this. Taylor is in some ways the ideal QB for what they are trying to do, a team that is built around D and run game needs a QB who doesn't turn the ball over and can occasionally make a big play downfield or with his legs. A pocket QB would be great if they could consistently move the ball, but if they were more prone to INTs it would put us in a worse position. I think he's our transitional QB and we should take someone else to develop alongside Jones to see if any can break out.

[Night Train]

TT is a transition QB, holding the fort until a QB with size and ability to deliver passes in the middle of the field is identified.

His cap concern may seal his fate after this season. He missed a lot of opportunities early in this game and started scrambling around with no real plan, giving our punter plenty of work.

[mdcas22]

alls I'm saying is Bortles might look like the next Peyton Manning if he had Shady, Watkins, Woods, Harvin ,Gillisee, Clay, and our o-line as teammates. no doubt Kujo would be the best o-liman Jacksonville has.

[Mace]

alls I'm saying is Bortles might look like the next Peyton Manning if he had Shady, Watkins, Woods, Harvin ,Gillisee, Clay, and our o-line as teammates. no doubt Kujo would be the best o-liman Jacksonville has.

Peyton Manning just didn't have that weird ball patting windup going, so no he wouldn't.

Bortles has piled up garbage time yards, it's documented, http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/10/28/blake-bortles-is-the-king-of-garbage-time-stat-padding/

Bortles doesn't understand what's wrong, it's documented, http://www.espn.com/blog/jacksonville-jaguars/post/_/id/19576/jaguars-qb-blake-bortles-is-broken-and-doesnt-know-why-or-how-to-fix-himself

He's just not going to look like the next Peyton Manning, because he'll always be the present Blake Bortles.

[djjimkelly]

lets just draft one or 2

cardele jones doesnt belong on roster

[mdcas22]

Limited talent at the skill positions?

he's got 2 receivers who eclipsed 1000 yards in the past 2 years. Plus a TE who had 12 touchdowns in each of his 2 years before going to Jax. Plus Marquis Lee as his 3rd receiver.

For all of his throwing...do you know how many times Jax has scored 25 points or more?

Once...in 11 games.

They've been held below 20 in more than half of their games.

And that was against some stellar defenses such as the Packers, the Raiders, the Titans and the Chargers.

I can understand this grass is always greener stuff....but people need to know what weeds look like too.

and this is my point. 2 of the 3 wide outs are 2nd round picks while another is a walk on, and Thomas was a 4th rnd pick. compare that to the Bills wr corps. like I said Bortles had Our wide outs when healthy Sammy would be talk about as one of the top notched wr's.

[mdcas22]

Peyton Manning just didn't have that weird ball patting windup going, so no he wouldn't.

Bortles has piled up garbage time yards, it's documented, http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/10/28/blake-bortles-is-the-king-of-garbage-time-stat-padding/

Bortles doesn't understand what's wrong, it's documented, http://www.espn.com/blog/jacksonville-jaguars/post/_/id/19576/jaguars-qb-blake-bortles-is-broken-and-doesnt-know-why-or-how-to-fix-himself

He's just not going to look like the next Peyton Manning, because he'll always be the present Blake Bortles.

you no what I mean, bottom line is he could produce much better with a better cast around him, no one will ever be Peyton I get it but I'd take Bortles in a NY minute over TT.

[mdcas22]

Maybe it's just me, but I go more by how they play.


these are blakes career stats 66 tds 48 ints for 10,008 yards in 2 1/2 years.

[SpikedLemonade]

Anyone who would rather have TT as our QB over BB is an idiot.

Bortles is a real QB whois young and struggling behind a poor OL that cannot run block or pass block. He will get better.

Taylor is who he is -- a lifetime back up QB who is a runner and not a QB. He does not have the arm strength or height of a Newton so TT limits his field by rolling one way or the other. He is crap from the pocket.

I would welcome Bortles to Buffalo but alas we will be drafting in the teens again due to some meaningless victories and will not have the opportunity to develop a real franchise QB.

[DraftBoy]

Bortles looks like a QB who is shell shocked and probably never should of started as a rookie. That team has a lot of talent at the skill positions, but they can't protect him and he's paid the price for it.

Bradley is likely gone at the end of this year and they better find a way to add some serious OL help as Bortles enters the final year of his contract next season.

[Victor7]

Unreal some people want Blake Bortles. Truly mind boggling to say the least.

With that said Taylor keeps regressing week to week. He looks alarming similar to Trent and Losman nowadays. **** man I'd even settle for last years Taylor.

He can't go through a progression ! .... I'd pay top dollar to be in the meeting room when they review the All-22 and there are open receivers all across the board time after time. What the **** is Taylor looking at ? Why won't he pull the trigger ? If our backup weren't EJ Manuel I'd be calling for his benching.

The sad part is Whaley probably thinks the answer is already on the roster in the form of Cardale Jones. A linebacker that parades as a QB. SMH

[Bill Cody]

Anyone who would rather have TT as our QB over BB is an idiot.

Bortles is a real QB whois young and struggling behind a poor OL that cannot run block or pass block. He will get better.

Taylor is who he is -- a lifetime back up QB who is a runner and not a QB. He does not have the arm strength or height of a Newton so TT limits his field by rolling one way or the other. He is crap from the pocket.

I would welcome Bortles to Buffalo but alas we will be drafting in the teens again due to some meaningless victories and will not have the opportunity to develop a real franchise QB.

Hmm...not so sure about Bortles. I heard the same excuses for David Carr back in the day. When a QB starts to see the rush he's as done as last Thursday's turkey. Bortles is a bigger risk than TT. Not to say TT is anything special but you kind of know what he is. Bortles might get better or he might just stay sucky, flip a coin.

[trapezeus]

blake bortles gets most of his yardage late in the second half when the game is already decided. there was an article about how his stats are inflated because of the second half. not sure if the number only approach works for him. you have to see him in game. and he's not getting it done.

[ticatfan]

Musical QB's does not work either.Give the kid some time.

[Bill Cody]

Musical QB's does not work either.Give the kid some time.

What you see is what you get

[Mr. Miyagi]

Musical QB's does not work either.Give the kid some time.
I'd give him time if he shows progression rather than regression.

Frankly we should've given JP Losman some time.
We should've given Flutie some time.
We could've given Trent Edwards some time.
We gave Fitz a lot of time, and it was the right time to dump him.
We gave EJ Manuel no time at all.

Tyrod, I'll give him till the end of the year. If he manages to seem in control of the offense, even if we miss the playoffs, I'll give him more time. The first half he played yesterday was not a good showing.

[swiper]

The Bills gave Manuel too much time. He was **** from day one and never got one bit better. He's a bigger draft bust than Mike Williams and Walt Patulski together.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The Bills gave Manuel too much time. He was **** from day one and never got one bit better. He's a bigger draft bust than Mike Williams and Walt Patulski together.

How exactly did we give Manuel too much time? We tried to sit him behind a veteran backup every year, only to see them injured or retired.

[TacklingDummy]

How exactly did we give Manuel too much time? We tried to sit him behind a veteran backup every year, only to see them injured or retired.

I hated the EJ pick but at least he's not afraid to throw the ball. Even if it gets intercepted.

[mdcas22]

blake bortles gets most of his yardage late in the second half when the game is already decided. there was an article about how his stats are inflated because of the second half. not sure if the number only approach works for him. you have to see him in game. and he's not getting it done.

don't no what you think garbage time is but the Jag's have only been beaten by more than 7 points 3 time this year.

[mdcas22]

The Bills gave Manuel too much time. He was **** from day one and never got one bit better. He's a bigger draft bust than Mike Williams and Walt Patulski together.

no we did with Manuel the same thing we always do with QB's. we pick a guy and go with him no matter, Losman was handed the starting job instead of sitting a couple of years behind Bledsoe, Manuel had no competition to speak of and TT the same for that matter.

[Arm of Harm]

no we did with Manuel the same thing we always do with QB's. we pick a guy and go with him no matter, Losman was handed the starting job instead of sitting a couple of years behind Bledsoe, Manuel had no competition to speak of and TT the same for that matter.

Losman hadn't established himself as a pocket passer at the college level. We used a first round pick on him anyway, because of his physical gifts.

You look at the EJ Manuel pick and you see a similar story. A guy with accuracy concerns, who ran a simplified offense in college. A guy who typically threw to his first read, or dumped the ball off. We used a first round pick on him because Whaley and Nix liked his physical tools, his "presence" in meetings, etc.

Over a 40 year period the Bills' front office used 50% of its first picks of the draft on DBs and RBs. Meanwhile, positions like QB and LT received relatively little attention very early in the draft. That's a big part of the reason why we've only had one franchise QB in this team's history. But when the Bills front office does target a QB in the draft, he's typically selected primarily on the basis of his physical tools. Not only do we have a tradition of under-investing draft picks in the QB position. We also have a tradition of front office gross incompetence at QB evaluation.

The Bills' QB busts have typically achieved nothing after being released. Losman's big post-Bills moments involved the Las Vegas Locomotives. The Bills didn't mishandle any of their young QBs any worse than the Tampa Bay Bucs mishandled Steve Young. But after being traded away from the Bucs, Young was able to make something of himself. Guys like Losman and Edwards exited in the NFL in what should have been the primes of their careers, because nobody in the NFL was willing to give them a roster spot.

[mdcas22]

Losman hadn't established himself as a pocket passer at the college level. We used a first round pick on him anyway, because of his physical gifts.

You look at the EJ Manuel pick and you see a similar story. A guy with accuracy concerns, who ran a simplified offense in college. A guy who typically threw to his first read, or dumped the ball off. We used a first round pick on him because Whaley and Nix liked his physical tools, his "presence" in meetings, etc.

Over a 40 year period the Bills' front office used 50% of its first picks of the draft on DBs and RBs. Meanwhile, positions like QB and LT received relatively little attention very early in the draft. That's a big part of the reason why we've only had one franchise QB in this team's history. But when the Bills front office does target a QB in the draft, he's typically selected primarily on the basis of his physical tools. Not only do we have a tradition of under-investing draft picks in the QB position. We also have a tradition of front office gross incompetence at QB evaluation.

The Bills' QB busts have typically achieved nothing after being released. Losman's big post-Bills moments involved the Las Vegas Locomotives. The Bills didn't mishandle any of their young QBs any worse than the Tampa Bay Bucs mishandled Steve Young. But after being traded away from the Bucs, Young was able to make something of himself. Guys like Losman and Edwards exited in the NFL in what should have been the primes of their careers, because nobody in the NFL was willing to give them a roster spot.

I agree 100% with your post and my I add that the Bill's have only drafted 3 1st round QB's ever.

[jimmifli]

I hated the EJ pick but at least he's not afraid to throw the ball. Even if it gets intercepted.

But can he prevent forest fires?

[mdcas22]

also just for kicks the Pittsburgh Steelers have drafted 36 QB's since the 60's and have drafted 3 QB's since they drafted big Ben

[Mace]

these are blakes career stats 66 tds 48 ints for 10,008 yards in 2 1/2 years.

Fully aware of it, and in my links :


First quarter: 1,598 yards, 4 touchdowns
Second quarter: 2,356 yards, 15 touchdowns
Third quarter: 1,912 yards, 13 touchdowns
Fourth quarter: 3,364 yards 26 touchdowns

And :


Bortles puts up huge stats in the fourth quarters of games. Now, if Bortles were doing that while leading fourth-quarter comeback wins, it would be one thing. But the Jaguars are 10-26 in Bortles’ 36 career starts, and Bortles has engineered just five game-winning drives in his three NFL seasons.

He piles up stats in garbage time. You can see his weird throwing motion just like I can, and he doesn't know why he has it all of a sudden.

Bortles is exactly what he looks like. A 10-30 career QB.

[Mace]

Bortles looks like a QB who is shell shocked and probably never should of started as a rookie. That team has a lot of talent at the skill positions, but they can't protect him and he's paid the price for it.

Bradley is likely gone at the end of this year and they better find a way to add some serious OL help as Bortles enters the final year of his contract next season.

I'd take it a step further and say they need to find him a competent QB coach for his mechanics as well.

Not a huge fan of Bortles, but while I don't think he's as good as some seem to think, I don't think he's as bad as he sometimes looks either.

[Mace]

Losman hadn't established himself as a pocket passer at the college level. We used a first round pick on him anyway, because of his physical gifts.

You look at the EJ Manuel pick and you see a similar story. A guy with accuracy concerns, who ran a simplified offense in college. A guy who typically threw to his first read, or dumped the ball off. We used a first round pick on him because Whaley and Nix liked his physical tools, his "presence" in meetings, etc.

I'm not exactly defending Losman & Manuel, they are(were) who they are(were), but I always have to bring up their draft circumstances.

Losman wasn't meant to be a pocket passer. If you remember back then, the Bills couldn't fix their o-line, were trying to look ahead past the statue Bledsoe, and stated intent to run and gun. They praised his mobility, he was going to move around like Bledsoe couldn't. Then all of a sudden, Mularkey and Wyche inexplicably made a big deal about breaking him of his footwork and making him a statue pocket passer, which he just wasn't. Fade to black.

Manuel was drafted when Marrone/Hackett were going on about their intent to K-gun. K-gun was a minimal set of plays. They praised his mobility. Then suddenly they shifted to try and make him a pocket passer, which he wasn't, when he got hurt running. He had no QB coach, he has Hackett the newb who was also OC. They meant to sit him behind Kolb which didn't work, though there was still no one to teach him. They wanted him to run more, then run less, pass more, then pass less. They went from K-gun to game manager type to slinging Orton. Hired a QB coach who made Stafford regress, and Stafford is a pocket passer anyway.

So they brought Losman and Manuel in, intending to use them one way, then shifted gears to try and use them where they were weakest, in Manuels case without even a competent QB coach. Mobile Losman meant to replace statue Bledsoe, replaced by statue Trent Edwards. Mobile Manuel drafted to replace erratic Fitz, but then replaced with statue Orton.

Teams know what they want in a QB when they draft one. Carr was not meant to be Harbaugh's Kap, Harbaugh's Kap was not meant to be Philly's Wentz. Dallas adapted to use Prescott without Romo, Carolina built an offense around Newton, Tampa is building to suit Winston, Tennessee to suit Mariota's skills.

In the past the Bills tried to force square pegs into round holes after drafting square pegs for square holes but then changed their mind.

I don't think Taylor is good enough, and I'm dubious about Cardale though hopeful, but at least they have a consistent concept atm, just probably inadequate talent for it.

[swiper]

How exactly did we give Manuel too much time? We tried to sit him behind a veteran backup every year, only to see them injured or retired.

He sucked in college. Drafting him meant giving him too much time. He is the worst Bills QB of all time. Joe Dufek and Gary Marangi are feeling good about themselves these days.

Manuel is probably the worst Bill of all time. Stop with these stupid justification posts for this trash heap.

[Mr. Miyagi]

no we did with Manuel the same thing we always do with QB's. we pick a guy and go with him no matter, Losman was handed the starting job instead of sitting a couple of years behind Bledsoe, Manuel had no competition to speak of and TT the same for that matter.
We did sit EJ behind Orton for a season. Before that was Kevin Kolb. Not defending EJ's suckiness but he kept getting pushed into the starting job when the vets in front of him kept retiring.

[WagonCircler]

We did sit EJ behind Orton for a season. Before that was Kevin Kolb. Not defending EJ's suckiness but he kept getting pushed into the starting job when the vets in front of him kept retiring.


EJ was so horrible in training camp that the Bills were forced to pry Orton off of his couch to come and be the starter that year. Whaley either made that move or risked Marrone stabbing him to death.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

He sucked in college. Drafting him meant giving him too much time. He is the worst Bills QB of all time. Joe Dufek and Gary Marangi are feeling good about themselves these days.
Manuel is probably the worst Bill of all time. Stop with these stupid justification posts for this trash heap.

Who's justifying anything? We tried to draft a project QB in a weak year and he busted. He'll be off the team after this season. That's the story. People keep trying to hammer this narrative that Doug Whaley is 100% committed to Manuel and has been doing everything he can to make Manuel look good and that just doesn't hold water.

[WagonCircler]

Who's justifying anything? We tried to draft a project QB in a weak year and he busted. He'll be off the team after this season. That's the story. People keep trying to hammer this narrative that Doug Whaley is 100% committed to Manuel and has been doing everything he can to make Manuel look good and that just doesn't hold water.

But Whaley, if he ever did come around to the reality that EJ sucks balls, was the last person to do so. And his stubbornness over EJ led directly to the Watkins debacle, and to outright malpractice regarding the QB position. He only acquired Tyrod at the insistence of Rex, and the only QB he has drafted since EJ was a massive reach who will never be a starting QB in this league, much less a franchise QB.

Whaley's bungling has been devastating to this franchise.

[justasportsfan]

As soon as we're out of the playoffs, I'd cut Ej and activate Cardale Jones and let him play some just to see what he's got.

[Mr. Miyagi]

As soon as we're out of the playoffs, I'd cut Ej and activate Cardale Jones and let him play some just to see what he's got.
Why? To rush yet another QB into playing and ruining him?

[swiper]

Who's justifying anything? We tried to draft a project QB in a weak year and he busted. He'll be off the team after this season. That's the story. People keep trying to hammer this narrative that Doug Whaley is 100% committed to Manuel and has been doing everything he can to make Manuel look good and that just doesn't hold water.

Who's "hammering" any such narrative? No one I've read here.

[Mr. Pink]

Why? To rush yet another QB into playing and ruining him?

Nah, you're playing meaningless games at that point and getting Cardale some real experience with no expectations is a good idea. At least in my opinion.

[BertSquirtgum]

He sucked in college. Drafting him meant giving him too much time. He is the worst Bills QB of all time. Joe Dufek and Gary Marangi are feeling good about themselves these days.

Manuel is probably the worst Bill of all time. Stop with these stupid justification posts for this trash heap.
You're crazy

[justasportsfan]

Why? To rush yet another QB into playing and ruining him?

no, just to see if we need to see where he's at so we can see where we are at this position. We all know he has a rocket arm that can throw to deep to Watkins . I'd like to see if he can read the middle of the field and get the ball to Clay and co.

It's not like we're pressuring him to win. I just want to assess him moving forward so we know what we have in him whether as a starter or even as back up for next year.

EJ is gone anyways after this season. No reason to keep him anymore.

[SpikedLemonade]

Who's "hammering" any such narrative? No one I've read here.

Oh leave him alone.

He does not know the technical term of "hammering" like you do with respect to your patience anal cavities.

Give him a break oh great ass one.

[swiper]

Losman hadn't established himself as a pocket passer at the college level. We used a first round pick on him anyway, because of his physical gifts.

You look at the EJ Manuel pick and you see a similar story. A guy with accuracy concerns, who ran a simplified offense in college. A guy who typically threw to his first read, or dumped the ball off. We used a first round pick on him because Whaley and Nix liked his physical tools, his "presence" in meetings, etc.

Over a 40 year period the Bills' front office used 50% of its first picks of the draft on DBs and RBs. Meanwhile, positions like QB and LT received relatively little attention very early in the draft. That's a big part of the reason why we've only had one franchise QB in this team's history. But when the Bills front office does target a QB in the draft, he's typically selected primarily on the basis of his physical tools. Not only do we have a tradition of under-investing draft picks in the QB position. We also have a tradition of front office gross incompetence at QB evaluation.

The Bills' QB busts have typically achieved nothing after being released. Losman's big post-Bills moments involved the Las Vegas Locomotives. The Bills didn't mishandle any of their young QBs any worse than the Tampa Bay Bucs mishandled Steve Young. But after being traded away from the Bucs, Young was able to make something of himself. Guys like Losman and Edwards exited in the NFL in what should have been the primes of their careers, because nobody in the NFL was willing to give them a roster spot.

Because Steve Young was actually talented and Losman and Edwards were not. The Bucs did a good job at the GM level and a lousy job at the coaching level. Young came in to Tampa as Leeman Bennett replaced John McKay. Young was only there for two years and the team was awful at that point (Bennett got fired after accumulating a 4-28 record). Young was lousy or didn't play much for the next 5 to 6 years in SF. It wasn't until 1992, under George Seifert, that Young had his breakout year. He had been in the league for SEVEN years before he produced a winning season. This takes Young off the table as someone to compare to.
W
Would you give Losman, Edwards, Taylor or Manuel 7 years to produce a wining season? Never. The fans demand gratification. It rarely works. Sure Taylor looked good out of the box. So did Wentz. Etc. But as soon as teams accumulate film on them and write down their tendencies, they defense to them. Most QBs come back to the pack. Very few become Drew Brees or Tom Brady.

[swiper]

You're crazy

So says the poster who keeps posting how much he sucks.

[Arm of Harm]

I'm not exactly defending Losman & Manuel, they are(were) who they are(were), but I always have to bring up their draft circumstances.

Losman wasn't meant to be a pocket passer. If you remember back then, the Bills couldn't fix their o-line, were trying to look ahead past the statue Bledsoe, and stated intent to run and gun. They praised his mobility, he was going to move around like Bledsoe couldn't. Then all of a sudden, Mularkey and Wyche inexplicably made a big deal about breaking him of his footwork and making him a statue pocket passer, which he just wasn't. Fade to black.

Manuel was drafted when Marrone/Hackett were going on about their intent to K-gun. K-gun was a minimal set of plays. They praised his mobility. Then suddenly they shifted to try and make him a pocket passer, which he wasn't, when he got hurt running. He had no QB coach, he has Hackett the newb who was also OC. They meant to sit him behind Kolb which didn't work, though there was still no one to teach him. They wanted him to run more, then run less, pass more, then pass less. They went from K-gun to game manager type to slinging Orton. Hired a QB coach who made Stafford regress, and Stafford is a pocket passer anyway.

So they brought Losman and Manuel in, intending to use them one way, then shifted gears to try and use them where they were weakest, in Manuels case without even a competent QB coach. Mobile Losman meant to replace statue Bledsoe, replaced by statue Trent Edwards. Mobile Manuel drafted to replace erratic Fitz, but then replaced with statue Orton.

Teams know what they want in a QB when they draft one. Carr was not meant to be Harbaugh's Kap, Harbaugh's Kap was not meant to be Philly's Wentz. Dallas adapted to use Prescott without Romo, Carolina built an offense around Newton, Tampa is building to suit Winston, Tennessee to suit Mariota's skills.

In the past the Bills tried to force square pegs into round holes after drafting square pegs for square holes but then changed their mind.

I don't think Taylor is good enough, and I'm dubious about Cardale though hopeful, but at least they have a consistent concept atm, just probably inadequate talent for it.

For the sake of argument let's say your post is accurate. That the Bills drafted Losman and Manuel for their physical tools, not because they thought that either one could or would develop into a good pocket passer. If that was their thought process, then that strongly reinforces my conviction that there are a bunch of intelligent, well-informed Bills fans who could do a better job of running this team than any of our post-Polian GMs.

A competent GM looks at a QB's pocket passing ability first, everything else second. Pocket passing means his accuracy and the speed with which he reads the field. There's only so much that good physical tools can do to substitute for those two things. If the Bills realized that Losman and Manuel were lacking in those two areas, and used first round picks on them anyway because of good physical tools, then that's not just a mistake. That's boneheaded. The type of mistake that should get a GM fired.

[Arm of Harm]

Because Steve Young was actually talented and Losman and Edwards were not. The Bucs did a good job at the GM level and a lousy job at the coaching level. Young came in to Tampa as Leeman Bennett replaced John McKay. Young was only there for two years and the team was awful at that point (Bennett got fired after accumulating a 4-28 record). Young was lousy or didn't play much for the next 5 to 6 years in SF. It wasn't until 1992, under George Seifert, that Young had his breakout year. He had been in the league for SEVEN years before he produced a winning season. This takes Young off the table as someone to compare to.
W
Would you give Losman, Edwards, Taylor or Manuel 7 years to produce a wining season? Never. The fans demand gratification. It rarely works. Sure Taylor looked good out of the box. So did Wentz. Etc. But as soon as teams accumulate film on them and write down their tendencies, they defense to them. Most QBs come back to the pack. Very few become Drew Brees or Tom Brady.


Steve Young was a backup in his first four years as a 49er. The reason for his not being a starter wasn't that he was "lousy." It was because the 49ers had Joe Montana in his prime. Hard to unseat a guy like that.

Young averaged 8.0 yards per pass attempt over the course of his career. During the four years in question, there were two when he exceeded his career average, two others when he fell short of it. During those four years he threw 23 TDs to just 6 INTs. Just because Young was a backup in San Francisco doesn't mean he needed four years on the bench to overcome lousy play. While data are scanty, what data we do have seem to indicate that Young could have played at or near his usual level during those first four years. But, obviously, he was denied that opportunity, because nobody is going to bench Joe Montana, in the prime of his career, for an unproven backup. Doesn't matter how good the backup looks in practice.

[Mace]

For the sake of argument let's say your post is accurate. That the Bills drafted Losman and Manuel for their physical tools, not because they thought that either one could or would develop into a good pocket passer. If that was their thought process, then that strongly reinforces my conviction that there are a bunch of intelligent, well-informed Bills fans who could do a better job of running this team than any of our post-Polian GMs.

A competent GM looks at a QB's pocket passing ability first, everything else second. Pocket passing means his accuracy and the speed with which he reads the field. There's only so much that good physical tools can do to substitute for those two things. If the Bills realized that Losman and Manuel were lacking in those two areas, and used first round picks on them anyway because of good physical tools, then that's not just a mistake. That's boneheaded. The type of mistake that should get a GM fired.

It's perfectly accurate, all that stuff was reported at the time, and stood out to be because it was cause for optimism from my perspective.

Absolutely agree with your conclusions. You can't get a QB with one philosophy in mind then keep changing philosophies out of tune with your coaching staff. But the Bills were also cycling through coaches and GM's without any coherent plan.

I've made the argument before, GM & Coach have to be in tune, to select a QB with the right talents to fit the coaches offensive philosophy, then make sure that QB has the tools in personnel on a team to fit the vision.

Good or bad, this is the closest we've come to doing that. I'm just not so sure the vision itself is workable in the modern game.

[The Jokeman]

For the sake of argument let's say your post is accurate. That the Bills drafted Losman and Manuel for their physical tools, not because they thought that either one could or would develop into a good pocket passer. If that was their thought process, then that strongly reinforces my conviction that there are a bunch of intelligent, well-informed Bills fans who could do a better job of running this team than any of our post-Polian GMs.

A competent GM looks at a QB's pocket passing ability first, everything else second. Pocket passing means his accuracy and the speed with which he reads the field. There's only so much that good physical tools can do to substitute for those two things. If the Bills realized that Losman and Manuel were lacking in those two areas, and used first round picks on them anyway because of good physical tools, then that's not just a mistake. That's boneheaded. The type of mistake that should get a GM fired.

If I'm not mistaken most felt EJ didn't take full advantage of his athleticism at FSU and say what you want he is far more of a pocket passer than Tyrod is. Yet both seem to have the inability to throw to guys who aren't open. EJ because of slow eyes and Tyrod and his double clutch/inability to see passing lanes or an ability to hit the middle of the field.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Who's "hammering" any such narrative? No one I've read here.

Read WagonCircler's post three above yours

[WagonCircler]

Read WagonCircler's post three above yours

You have a comprehension problem.

It's obvious to anyone paying attention that Whaley was the last passenger off the EJ train, and it's not clear that he ever got off at all.

He made it clear numerous times, in his own words, that he took the heinous Watkins gamble in order to bolster EJ.

This is not a matter of opinion. It's well documented.

The common flaws shared by EJ and Tyrod are that neither can process opposing defenses and make decisions based on what they are seeing, and neither is even close to being accurate enough to win consistently in the NFL.

This is also very likely the case with the other boneheaded QB acquisition that Whaley made, Cardale Jones, who lost his starting job three times at OSU.

Whaley thinks athletic QBs can overcome these obstacles.

He's wrong.

Doug Whaley should never be allowed to draft or sign a QB ever again.

[swiper]

And I think Whaley's basic flaw has been well documented at this point. He comes from a generation of new GMs that feel athleticism outranks all when drafting college players. It used to be a good GM would find a player that was a good mix of athlete, smarts, and good team player/citizen - or a team full of players of this mix. Whaley drafts pot-smoking, wife-smacking, athletes and hopes it all turns out right on the football field.

[The Jokeman]

And I think Whaley's basic flaw has been well documented at this point. He comes from a generation of new GMs that feel athleticism outranks all when drafting college players. It used to be a good GM would find a player that was a good mix of athlete, smarts, and good team player/citizen - or a team full of players of this mix. Whaley drafts pot-smoking, wife-smacking, athletes and hopes it all turns out right on the football field.

Whaley also comes from the Pittsburgh model which to me is to build the best team around the QB too. Say what you want but he's done some great things in improving the overall talent on this roster then we saw in years past as our depth far better than it has been in years past.

[SpikedLemonade]

You have a comprehension problem.

Please...............he does not speak caveman.....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=524gAFzwNjQ

[IlluminatusUIUC]

You have a comprehension problem.

It's obvious to anyone paying attention that Whaley was the last passenger off the EJ train, and it's not clear that he ever got off at all.

He made it clear numerous times, in his own words, that he took the heinous Watkins gamble in order to bolster EJ.

This is not a matter of opinion. It's well documented.[

The common flaws shared by EJ and Tyrod are that neither can process opposing defenses and make decisions based on what they are seeing, and neither is even close to being accurate enough to win consistently in the NFL.

This is also very likely the case with the other boneheaded QB acquisition that Whaley made, Cardale Jones, who lost his starting job three times at OSU.

Jones and Taylor are not the only QBs he acquired since the EJ pick (which it still needs to be said, was made while Nix was officially the GM). Remember Orton, Kolb, Cassel, Leinart, etc? None of those guys could remotely be described as "athletic" and his plan was clearly to have Manuel sit behind them and learn. Well, one guy injured himself on a freaking mat, one retired, and the others sucked so hard they were worse choices than EJ/Taylor.

Also, keep in mind the relative costs of these QBs. Manuel was a first rounder, but we at least traded down and got the pick which turned into Alonso/Shady. Taylor was a street free agent, Jones was a compensatory 4th rounder.

From the QBs he's going after, he seems to be applying Parcells' "Planet Theory" to Quarterbacks. Roethlisberger is a goddamned battletank at QB, and there just aren't that many guys on the planet with his measurables and so far none with his QB pedigree, so Whaley is trying to draft for the athleticism and develop the pedigree.

[swiper]

Whaley also comes from the Pittsburgh model which to me is to build the best team around the QB too. Say what you want but he's done some great things in improving the overall talent on this roster then we saw in years past as our depth far better than it has been in years past.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The depth is as horrible as ever in Bills history. Mike Gillislee cannot hold a candle to Kenneth Davis. And secondly you have to actually have a QB to build around, which Whaley has failed to get. Outside of a small handful of players, he hasn't been successful with the roster. For anyone to suggest so (read you) is pure stupidity.

[swiper]

Jones and Taylor are not the only QBs he acquired since the EJ pick (which it still needs to be said, was made while Nix was officially the GM). Remember Orton, Kolb, Cassel, Leinart, etc? None of those guys could remotely be described as "athletic" and his plan was clearly to have Manuel sit behind them and learn. Well, one guy injured himself on a freaking mat, one retired, and the others sucked so hard they were worse choices than EJ/Taylor.

Again. Wrong on all counts. It has been said by everyone at OBD that the Manuel pick was Whaley. There is absolutely no debating that. The white guys you mention were each panic pick-ups when Whaley realized the guy he wanted to work was failing miserably.


Also, keep in mind the relative costs of these QBs. Manuel was a first rounder, but we at least traded down and got the pick which turned into Alonso/Shady. Taylor was a street free agent, Jones was a compensatory 4th rounder.

Another stupid statement. Who cares what the "relative cost" is? Get a Ben Roethlisberger type player in here and pay him whatever it takes to keep him here for ten years.



From the QBs he's going after, he seems to be applying Parcells' "Planet Theory" to Quarterbacks. Roethlisberger is a goddamned battletank at QB, and there just aren't that many guys on the planet with his measurables and so far none with his QB pedigree, so Whaley is trying to draft for the athleticism and develop the pedigree.

Just stop already. Firstly you don't know what Whaley is trying to do. He openly boasts about the pedigree in Manuel & Taylor (although you are not using that word correctly, I assume what point you trying to make). Thirdly, You or anyone else cannot tell me that the Bills could not have managed to find ONE of these franchise QBs since Jim Kelly retired. That is failure on a large scale from OBD.

[swiper]

Furthemore on the topic of "relative cost." The GM and the owner look like idiots when they throw $100 million at a temperamental DE and get cost-conscious about the QB (the most important single position on the team.

There is just no excuse for that.

[The Jokeman]

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The depth is as horrible as ever in Bills history. Mike Gillislee cannot hold a candle to Kenneth Davis. And secondly you have to actually have a QB to build around, which Whaley has failed to get. Outside of a small handful of players, he hasn't been successful with the roster. For anyone to suggest so (read you) is pure stupidity.

Mike Gillislee has been far more successful than guys like Anthony Thomas, Shaun Bryson, Shaud Williams etc. etc. I wasn't comparing him to Kenny Davis but some of the horrible backs we've had since the great 90s teams. In terms of building around a QB, I always feel that QBs are made and not born. So to me they should be surrounded with as much talent as possible. Case in point is John Elway lead the Broncos to endless Super Bowls and finally was able to win one when had Terrell Davis with him.

[swiper]

The argument fromm you was that the depth was good. It is not. Many of the starters are bad. Just look at the right side of the o-line or any TE not named Clay. Back-up QB. Back-up LBs and DBs. There are guys playing on every Sunday that shouldn't
be. Who T. F. is DB named White I have to keep seeing? Half the active DBs on the roster are hot garbage.

[The Jokeman]

White is a veteran nickel/dime back we signed this off season either from Tampa or Dallas. I'd have to look as dont recall all the details but have you seen the hot garbage DBs the Packers have? To be honest look at our 53 man roster today compared to some of those post Blessed years and think will agree it's better than those years. Yea we have poor depth at TE and at OG. Say what you want but if you told me that we'd cut Mario Williams, have Dareus play in less than half our games that we'd be tops in sacks in the NFL I'd call you crazy but it's a reality.

[swiper]

The Bills don't have good depth anywhere.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The depth is as horrible as ever in Bills history. Mike Gillislee cannot hold a candle to Kenneth Davis. And secondly you have to actually have a QB to build around, which Whaley has failed to get. Outside of a small handful of players, he hasn't been successful with the roster. For anyone to suggest so (read you) is pure stupidity.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xLd9DJq2l2VFtu/giphy.gif

[WagonCircler]

The argument fromm you was that the depth was good. It is not. Many of the starters are bad. .

The perception that this team is full of talent is a direct result of the marketing approach to building a roster, carried out by the tandem of idiots Whaley and Brandon.

The picks are about hype, like Shaw Lawson and Sammy Watkins. They're big name, football factory reaches who have injury histories or other problems causing other teams to pass on them. Or, in the case of Watkins, they overpay, squandering valuable resources to create a splash by drafting a name player who doesn't come close to justifying the price paid in draft choices.

The same can be said for the hiring of Rex and the signing of "Super Mario" and Terrell Owens. They're marketing gimmicks.

This organization is a hype machine. The real goal is to sell tickets and sponsorships. The pursuit of winning is a mirage. The real goal is to create the illusion of progress.

And when, invariably, the reality of another consecutive season with no playoffs comes around, there's still the lingering perception that "we have all this talent!"

We don't have talent. We have sizzle, but no steak. That's the Brandon way.