Give Doug Whaley Some Credit

[BillsImpossible]

Ryan Groy?

Mike Gillislee?

Justin Hunter?

Lorenzo Alexander?

Zach Brown?

Jerome Felton?

Cyrus Kouandjio?

Jerel Worthy?

Shady for Kiko?

Everybody says Whaley f'd up on EJ Manuel, but few acknowledge it was Buddy Nix's choice.

The Sammy Watkins trade up was his biggest mistake, or is it not?

When Watkins is healthy, he's proven that he is an elite NFL wide receiver that can change a game.

What's your beef with Doug Whaley?

[Mace]

He's a pro personnel director not a GM.

[YardRat]

It's a little easier to add up the free agent finds and overlook the misses just because of the sheer numbers that are brought in on a regular basis. The draft is a bigger target for criticism for the opposite reason. That being said, he does appear to have far more success with the pros than the rookies he brings in.

[TacklingDummy]

All that's great, how about a QB?

[BillsImpossible]

He's a pro personnel director not a GM.

In his first draft as GM, Whaley landed Watkins, Kouandjio, Preston Brown, and Seantrel Henderson.

In 2015, Whaley drafted Nick O'Leary, Karlos Williams, John Miller and Ronald Darby.

In 2016, Whaley drafted Shaq Lawson, Reggie Ragland, Adolphus Washington, Cardale Jones, Jonathan Williams, Kolby Listenbee, and Kevon Seymour.

What more do you want?

[Mr. Pink]

And who of those draft picks have so far shown worthy of their selection?

*crickets*

Exactly.

[WagonCircler]

Ryan Groy?

Mike Gillislee?

Justin Hunter?

Lorenzo Alexander?

Zach Brown?

Jerome Felton?

Cyrus Kouandjio?

Jerel Worthy?

Shady for Kiko?

Everybody says Whaley f'd up on EJ Manuel, but few acknowledge it was Buddy Nix's choice.

The Sammy Watkins trade up was his biggest mistake, or is it not?

When Watkins is healthy, he's proven that he is an elite NFL wide receiver that can change a game.

What's your beef with Doug Whaley?

Other than Alexander, this is a list of run-of-the-mill, below replacement level NFL players.

And the McCoy for Kiko deal was no stroke of brilliance by Whaley. He answered the phone and said yes.

[BertSquirtgum]

I think he's a great GM. Don't understand why some people hate him so much. It's Russ Brandon that's the real problem.

[WagonCircler]

I think he's a great GM. Don't understand why some people hate him so much. It's Russ Brandon that's the real problem.

Really?

What section are your playoff tickets in?

Oh, wait...they're not going to the playoffs.

How about last year? No? The year before? The year before? The year before? No?

That's weird. Because a great GM would surely have a team in the playoffs after 5 years.

[The Jokeman]

It's a little easier to add up the free agent finds and overlook the misses just because of the sheer numbers that are brought in on a regular basis. The draft is a bigger target for criticism for the opposite reason. That being said, he does appear to have far more success with the pros than the rookies he brings in.

and most drafts take three or four years to evaluate, how many drafts has Whaley been the GM on? Oh yeah just two.

[swiper]

In his first draft as GM, Whaley landed Watkins, Kouandjio, Preston Brown, and Seantrel Henderson.

In 2015, Whaley drafted Nick O'Leary, Karlos Williams, John Miller and Ronald Darby.

In 2016, Whaley drafted Shaq Lawson, Reggie Ragland, Adolphus Washington, Cardale Jones, Jonathan Williams, Kolby Listenbee, and Kevon Seymour.

What more do you want?

Nick O'Leary is a hot pile of crap. You lose again.

[The Jokeman]

Nick O'Leary is a hot pile of crap. You lose again.

O'Leary is what he is, a depth TE. Tell me which TE drafted after him that's performed significantly better that we passed on?


11 6 18 194 Nick O'Leary Bills Florida State
12 6 19 195 Malcolm Johnson Browns Mississippi State
13 6 22 198 Randall Telfer Browns USC
14 6 26 202 A.J. Derby Patriots Arkansas
15 6 37 213 Kennard Backman Packers Alabama-Birmingham
16 7 12 229 Ben Koyack Jaguars Notre Dame
17 7 29 246 Geoff Swaim Cowboys Texas
18 7 37 254 Rory 'Busta' Anderson 49ers South Carolina
19 7 39 256 Gerald Christian Cardinals Louisville

[swiper]

Other than Alexander, this is a list of run-of-the-mill, below replacement level NFL players.

And the McCoy for Kiko deal was no stroke of brilliance by Whaley. He answered the phone and said yes.

This. Anyone who sees Whaley as being a competent GM is just plain lost. Those in this thread sum that up well.

[swiper]

O'Leary is what he is, a depth TE. Tell me which TE drafted after him that's performed significantly better that we passed on?


11 6 18 194 Nick O'Leary Bills Florida State
12 6 19 195 Malcolm Johnson Browns Mississippi State
13 6 22 198 Randall Telfer Browns USC
14 6 26 202 A.J. Derby Patriots Arkansas
15 6 37 213 Kennard Backman Packers Alabama-Birmingham
16 7 12 229 Ben Koyack Jaguars Notre Dame
17 7 29 246 Geoff Swaim Cowboys Texas
18 7 37 254 Rory 'Busta' Anderson 49ers South Carolina
19 7 39 256 Gerald Christian Cardinals Louisville

That is an abjectly stupid reply. Are you ******ed? There are many, MANY, better free agent options available at low cost. Please. And the Patriots are still laughing at Whaley for not resigning Hogan.

Your argument is like the Bills waiting until they had lost Fitzpatrick and had NO Qb before they went out shopping for one. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

[Forward_Lateral]

Who's the starting safeties again? Who's the QB? TE? I could continue, if you want.

So, no, Whaley doesn't get any credit from me, because he gets zero blame for the state of the franchise. He wears Teflon underwear, and it makes me sick.

[The Jokeman]

That is an abjectly stupid reply. Are you ******ed? There are many, MANY, better free agent options available at low cost. Please. And the Patriots are still laughing at Whaley for not resigning Hogan.

Your argument is like the Bills waiting until they had lost Fitzpatrick and had NO Qb before they went out shopping for one. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

My point is, if you're going to blast Whaley for drafting a player like O'Leary then name someone who was drafted that would have served us better. I agree that are depth at TE sucks and it was something I mentioned this preseason. The Patriots gave Hogan a contract the Bills couldn't match much like the Bills did with Clay. Ultimately is Hogan significantly better than Hunter has been? In my eyes nope all things considered. As sure Hogan has better stats but is that because Hogan is a better player or in a better situation?

[Arm of Harm]

Of the players Whaley has brought in, which do you expect to contribute at a high level three years from now? Certainly not Lorenzo Alexander, who will be going into his 13th season. Probably not LeSean McCoy, who will be going into his ninth season next year at a position not known for longevity. Jerome Felton will be going into his 11th season next year. He's not going to be playing at a high level three years from now.

Mike Gillislee is young enough that I don't expect a dropoff in his performance, so he should continue to be a solid RB three years from now. This team has consistently had good, solid RBs throughout the playoff drought.

This season Justin Hunter has 9 receptions for 125 yards, building upon the 0 reception, 0 yard season he had in 2015. It is inconceivable that any other WR in the league could match or exceed that level of production. We're talking Jerry Rice/Larry Fitzgerald here. Cyrus Kouandjio has been here three years, and has compiled five starts in that time. Jerel Worthy has not been considered worthy of a starting position, either in Green Bay or in Buffalo.

You look at guys like Mike Gillislee, Zach Brown, Ryan Groy. Those are all reasonably young players who are decent. Not great. Zach Brown will be an UFA after the season; the other two will be restricted free agents. (None of those guys were draft picks, btw.)

E.J. Manuel might have been Buddy Nix's choice. But that choice was based in large part on Doug Whaley's pre-draft evaluation of Manuel. Whaley then went all-in on Manuel after becoming GM. And remained "high on EJ" long after most others had given up on him. More generally Whaley cannot evaluate QB talent. His biggest mistake has been his complete failure in finding a QB. The Sammy Watkins trade was part of that. Not because there's anything wrong with Sammy. But because Whaley should have traded down for Derek Carr, instead of trading up for Sammy.

[The Beef]

Mike G is good, certainly not below replacment level.

Oleary as well. He knows how to find aoft spota in coverage, has good hands and is an effective blocker.

Darby was certainly worth the draft position as was Miller.

I would like a College Scouting Director that Whaley heavily leans on with a voice that matters.

An above average QB covers a lot of flaws. Since Flutie we've has about 20 games of Bledsoe that qualified as that and not much else.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

It seems like a lot of the posters will sprint from a thread bashing Rex - where they claim that this team is playoff caliber being held back by bad coaching - to a thread bashing Whaley - where they claim this is a team with below replacement level talent.

As faint as that praise may be, this is the most successful stretch of Bills football in a decade. Who is responsible for that improvement?

[EDS]

My point is, if you're going to blast Whaley for drafting a player like O'Leary then name someone who was drafted that would have served us better. I agree that are depth at TE sucks and it was something I mentioned this preseason. The Patriots gave Hogan a contract the Bills couldn't match much like the Bills did with Clay. Ultimately is Hogan significantly better than Hunter has been? In my eyes nope all things considered. As sure Hogan has better stats but is that because Hogan is a better player or in a better situation?

Could have drafted Trevor Siemian, or, if we are limited to tight ends, Will Tye.

[WagonCircler]

Mike G is good, certainly not below replacment level.

Oleary as well. He knows how to find aoft spota in coverage, has good hands and is an effective blocker.

Darby was certainly worth the draft position as was Miller..

Now, what about this is different than any team in the NFL? Nothing. Even Cleveland has players like this. This group is nothing that any fanboy with a draft guide couldn't put together. There's zero vision or expertise in what Whaley does. There's some creativity, but it's foolish creativity that turns out to be disastrous.

He's a terrible GM and is only still here because of a quirk of fate and the fact that he's every bit the ass kisser that Russ Brandon is.

[Victor7]

Ryan Groy?

Mike Gillislee?

Justin Hunter?

Lorenzo Alexander?

Zach Brown?

Jerome Felton?

Cyrus Kouandjio?

Jerel Worthy?

Shady for Kiko?

Everybody says Whaley f'd up on EJ Manuel, but few acknowledge it was Buddy Nix's choice.

The Sammy Watkins trade up was his biggest mistake, or is it not?

When Watkins is healthy, he's proven that he is an elite NFL wide receiver that can change a game.

What's your beef with Doug Whaley?
I wouldn't give him much credit on Alexander or Felton. Lorenzo had been a nobody for years in this league. Whaley isn't some genius that saw some diamond in the rough. Something kicked in this year for Zo and he balled. Great for us but hardly a "Whaley is da man moment". Its more Alexander than anybody else.

Felton has been a successful fullback in this league for some time. Not sure signing a proven player is a win for Whaley or any GM for that matter.

Kouandjio has barely played in the 2 seasons hes been with us. For a 2nd rounder I'd actually put this in the loss column.

Shady for Kiko is indeed his best move to date.

Worthy is decent depth and nothing more. Ditto for Hunter. Zach Brown is indeed a win.

Gillislie is a win and Groy is very good depth. Kudos there.


Now about that QB situation ??

[The Jokeman]

I wouldn't give him much credit on Alexander or Felton. Lorenzo had been a nobody for years in this league. Whaley isn't some genius that saw some diamond in the rough. Something kicked in this year for Zo and he balled. Great for us but hardly a "Whaley is da man moment". Its more Alexander than anybody else.

Felton has been a successful fullback in this league for some time. Not sure signing a proven player is a win for Whaley or any GM for that matter.

Kouandjio has barely played in the 2 seasons hes been with us. For a 2nd rounder I'd actually put this in the loss column.

Shady for Kiko is indeed his best move to date.

Worthy is decent depth and nothing more. Ditto for Hunter. Zach Brown is indeed a win.

Gillislie is a win and Groy is very good depth. Kudos there.


Now about that QB situation ??
Kujo may not be starting but he's usually the first OT off the bench and plays on ST. I mean it could be worse, he could be James Hardy good.

[OpIv37]

In the end, all that matters is wins. Sure, Whaley has had some good finds, but he hasn't managed to assemble a winning team. We are still mired in that 6-9 win range every year. Not good enough for playoffs, not bad enough for that top draft pick that will add serious talent.

Whaley as a GM is as the team is: mediocre.

[Victor7]

Kujo may not be starting but he's usually the first OT off the bench and plays on ST. I mean it could be worse, he could be James Hardy good.
For a 2nd rounder color me very unimpressed. CK is certainly a name for the loss column in the Whaley resume. Opening posts suggest it was a good pick. It clearly wasn't.

[trapezeus]

bills impossible blindly giving his support no matter what. got to love the threads. whaley hasn't done enough. he hasn't been an unmitigated disaster, but routinely, we get to dismiss his mistakes and only highlight htat he traded for hughes. he has failed. and he doesn't have enough control from Brandon and the other cronies to own anything. and why would he...he doesn't ever get dismissed despite having no bankable results thus far.

[OpIv37]

bills impossible blindly giving his support no matter what. got to love the threads. whaley hasn't done enough. he hasn't been an unmitigated disaster, but routinely, we get to dismiss his mistakes and only highlight htat he traded for hughes. he has failed. and he doesn't have enough control from Brandon and the other cronies to own anything. and why would he...he doesn't ever get dismissed despite having no bankable results thus far.

He's mind-****ing himself to avoid reality. If Whaley is a bad GM, it means we will be mediocre until he is eventually fired, then it's 3 years of rebuilding before we can be competitive (and that's assuming we don't botch the rebuild for the 5th straight time).

If Whaley is a good GM, we are a couple of FA's and one more draft class from being competitive. So, he's starting with the conclusion that Whaley is a good GM and looking for evidence to support it while ignoring anything that refutes it.

This kind of thing used to happen a lot more around here, before years of soul-crushing losses beat reality into people.

[swiper]

My point is, if you're going to blast Whaley for drafting a player like O'Leary then name someone who was drafted that would have served us better. I agree that are depth at TE sucks and it was something I mentioned this preseason. The Patriots gave Hogan a contract the Bills couldn't match much like the Bills did with Clay. Ultimately is Hogan significantly better than Hunter has been? In my eyes nope all things considered. As sure Hogan has better stats but is that because Hogan is a better player or in a better situation?

GM 101. There were more important positions to put a back-up in with that pick. LB? Safety? Guard? Center? Tackle? RB? All more important.

[sudzy]

In his first draft as GM, Whaley landed Watkins, Kouandjio, Preston Brown, and Seantrel Henderson.

In 2015, Whaley drafted Nick O'Leary, Karlos Williams, John Miller and Ronald Darby.

In 2016, Whaley drafted Shaq Lawson, Reggie Ragland, Adolphus Washington, Cardale Jones, Jonathan Williams, Kolby Listenbee, and Kevon Seymour.

What more do you want?

You list Karlos as a plus? Ragland and Listenbee haven't even taken on snap in practice. You list them like they done something. All Whaley's drafts a Cs at best.

[sudzy]

He's a pro personnel director not a GM.

Very true. He is much better at finding descent player off of other teams rosters then he is at drafting players.

[Mace]

In his first draft as GM, Whaley landed Watkins, Kouandjio, Preston Brown, and Seantrel Henderson.

In 2015, Whaley drafted Nick O'Leary, Karlos Williams, John Miller and Ronald Darby.

In 2016, Whaley drafted Shaq Lawson, Reggie Ragland, Adolphus Washington, Cardale Jones, Jonathan Williams, Kolby Listenbee, and Kevon Seymour.

What more do you want?

Consistent contributors. Miller & Brown make him 2 out of 20 from college.

2 of 20 is feeble.

[Jimkelly12203]

And the McCoy for Kiko deal was no stroke of brilliance by Whaley. He answered the phone and said yes.

This.

[The Jokeman]

This.

He could have said yes to trading Robert Woods instead of Kiko but I know we can't give credit for that.

[Mad Max]

He's mind-****ing himself to avoid reality. If Whaley is a bad GM, it means we will be mediocre until he is eventually fired, then it's 3 years of rebuilding before we can be competitive (and that's assuming we don't botch the rebuild for the 5th straight time).

If Whaley is a good GM, we are a couple of FA's and one more draft class from being competitive. So, he's starting with the conclusion that Whaley is a good GM and looking for evidence to support it while ignoring anything that refutes it.

This kind of thing used to happen a lot more around here, before years of soul-crushing losses beat reality into people.


Yep. "Show me the baby".

Even Matt Millen made some good moves. Whaley has absolutely made some good moves. Problem is I don't see a plan, no upward trajectory just a bunch of reactionary moves.

Tear it down. Start over without Whaley.

[swiper]

Mike G is good, certainly not below replacment level. So? What team does have that?


Oleary as well. He knows how to find aoft spota in coverage, has good hands and is an effective blocker. You are delusional. He's slow. And Lee Smith was better at all the rest.


Darby was certainly worth the draft position as was Miller. Darby has been burned several times this year. His play has dropped off a cliff. And Miller has been terrible for much of the year. The Steelers made a fool out of him.[/QUOTE]

Just another casual fan with a wrong opinion because you don't really understand what you're looking at when you watch football.

[X-Era]

He's a pro personnel director not a GM.BS.

Darby, Henderson, Washington, Miller, Karlos Williams, Preston Brown

[X-Era]

There is a bad habit around here of throwing all the babies together in the tub and tossing them all out together.

Tyrod Taylor alone makes Whaley a solid GM.

Whaley is not our problem. He stays, Rex goes, and keep Tyrod at 15.9 while looking to the draft for something better.

Replace people when you have something better in hand.

[Arm of Harm]

It seems like a lot of the posters will sprint from a thread bashing Rex - where they claim that this team is playoff caliber being held back by bad coaching - to a thread bashing Whaley - where they claim this is a team with below replacement level talent.

As faint as that praise may be, this is the most successful stretch of Bills football in a decade. Who is responsible for that improvement?


This team is on pace for 8-8. That's one win better than Dick Jauron's usual 7-9 season. Marv retained very few players from the TD era, so those 7-9 seasons were due mostly to Marv's work as GM. Marv's work as GM was very disappointing. A few years after his departure the Bills had little talent left from the Marv era. Nor did Marv-drafted players go on to achieve great things with other teams. Those 7-9 seasons were a flash in the pan, not the result of building block type players.

The Bills had a nine win season in 2004, and another 9 win season in 2014. They've also had three 6 win seasons, and four 7 win seasons, since 2004.

So you look at the Bills' season this year. We played the Patriots at a time when their starting QB was suspended and their backup was out with an injury thanks to the Dolphins. The Jacksonville game was a gift to the Bills from the referees. And the Cleveland game was an automatic win because it was Cleveland. That's three wins, out of our seven total, that were the result of unusual circumstances or flukes. We're not a better or more talented team than we've been in the past. Rex Ryan is neither better nor worse than Dick Jauron, Doug Marrone, or Mike Mularkey. If our record is very slightly better than our usual over the last decade, it's because of fluke games.

[The Jokeman]

This team is on pace for 8-8. That's one win better than Dick Jauron's usual 7-9 season. Marv retained very few players from the TD era, so those 7-9 seasons were due mostly to Marv's work as GM. The Bills had a nine win season in 2004, and another 9 win season in 2014. They've also had three 6 win seasons, and four 7 win seasons, since 2004.

So you look at the Bills' season this year. We played the Patriots at a time when their starting QB was suspended and their backup was out with an injury thanks to the Dolphins. The Jacksonville game was a gift to the Bills from the referees. And the Cleveland game was an automatic win because it was Cleveland. That's three wins, out of our seven total, that were the result of unusual circumstances or flukes. We're not a better or more talented team than we've been in the past. Rex Ryan is neither better nor worse than Dick Jauron, Doug Marrone, or Mike Mularkey. If our record is very slightly better than our usual over the last decade, it's because of fluke games.

If you can't see our offense is better than it was better than our bend but don't break defenses under Jauron than I question what team you've been watching the last 17 years. The running game is as good as it ever was under Gailey the year CJ looked like the RB we hoped he be when Freddie went down to injury. The defense has had lapses no doubt in part because of Rex's scheme isn't the best for our current personnel IMHO. In terms of winning and losing, you play the schedule your given and sadly like in the past the Bills let games slip through their fingers that would have propelled us to the playoffs, see the Baltimore and Jets games this season are similar to our collapse against Oakland with Orton at QB. I'm placing blame on the HC and QB first and foremost, if we want to cut the GM, fine but we better get someone better but I have yet to see anyone name any names of this mysterious new GM.

[Arm of Harm]

There is a bad habit around here of throwing all the babies together in the tub and tossing them all out together.

Tyrod Taylor alone makes Whaley a solid GM.

Whaley is not our problem. He stays, Rex goes, and keep Tyrod at 15.9 while looking to the draft for something better.

Replace people when you have something better in hand.


Tyrod Taylor most certainly does not make Whaley a "solid" GM. Taylor put up 3000 passing yards for the Bills last season in 14 starts. This season he's on pace to put up 3000 passing yards in 16 starts. Kyle Orton put up 3000 passing yards for the Bills in 12 starts. Ryan Fitzpatrick put up 3000 passing yards for us in 13 starts. When he started all 16 games for us Fitz put up 3400 - 3800 passing yards per year. As a passer, Taylor is a significant downgrade from Orton or Fitzpatrick. There's only so much his legs can do to compensate for that.

Doug Whaley is the problem. Period. Find a reasonably intelligent Bills fan, give that fan some draft guides, and now you have a GM who's as good or better than Whaley. I am absolutely certain that the Bills cannot and will not win a Super Bowl as long as he's GM. Our path to the Super Bowl begins the day he's given his pink slip. (Unless of course the Bills hire some other, equally incompetent GM to take his place. But hopefully that won't happen. This fan base has suffered enough already.)

[X-Era]

Tyrod Taylor most certainly does not make Whaley a "solid" GM. Taylor put up 3000 passing yards for the Bills last season in 14 starts. This season he's on pace to put up 3000 passing yards in 16 starts. Kyle Orton put up 3000 passing yards for the Bills in 12 starts. Ryan Fitzpatrick put up 3000 passing yards for us in 13 starts. When he started all 16 games for us Fitz put up 3400 - 3800 passing yards per year. As a passer, Taylor is a significant downgrade from Orton or Fitzpatrick. There's only so much his legs can do to compensate for that.

Doug Whaley is the problem. Period. Find a reasonably intelligent Bills fan, give that fan some draft guides, and now you have a GM who's as good or better than Whaley. I am absolutely certain that the Bills cannot and will not win a Super Bowl as long as he's GM. Our path to the Super Bowl begins the day he's given his pink slip. (Unless of course the Bills hire some other, equally incompetent GM to take his place. But hopefully that won't happen. This fan base has suffered enough already.)
1) Finding a starting QB as a street free agent for less than 10 mill per last year DOES make him a solid GM. As does Zach Brown, Cogs, Alexander

2) Plenty of reasonably intelligent fans here would bury this team in perpetual win less seasons with a draft guide. It's not easy. Not for anyone.

3) Our path to the past decades begins with a pink slip. It's a dollar and a dream regardless. I welcome any clear QB path to the Superbowl or playoffs at the QB position. I see posts long on criticism of what we have and extremely short on solutions.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

This team is on pace for 8-8. That's one win better than Dick Jauron's usual 7-9 season. Marv retained very few players from the TD era, so those 7-9 seasons were due mostly to Marv's work as GM. Marv's work as GM was very disappointing. A few years after his departure the Bills had little talent left from the Marv era. Nor did Marv-drafted players go on to achieve great things with other teams. Those 7-9 seasons were a flash in the pan, not the result of building block type players.

Ok?

The Bills had a nine win season in 2004, and another 9 win season in 2014. They've also had three 6 win seasons, and four 7 win seasons, since 2004.

Correct, which is why I said Whaley going 9-7, 8-8, and then 7-7 is our most successful stretch of football in a decade.

So you look at the Bills' season this year. We played the Patriots at a time when their starting QB was suspended and their backup was out with an injury thanks to the Dolphins. The Jacksonville game was a gift to the Bills from the referees. And the Cleveland game was an automatic win because it was Cleveland. That's three wins, out of our seven total, that were the result of unusual circumstances or flukes. We're not a better or more talented team than we've been in the past. Rex Ryan is neither better nor worse than Dick Jauron, Doug Marrone, or Mike Mularkey. If our record is very slightly better than our usual over the last decade, it's because of fluke games.
Do you want to go over flukes from the Marrone or Jauron era? Like playing the Pats in week 17 of 2014 when they had their seeding locked up, so we only saw Brady for a half? Or Sammy Watkins making one of the most ridiculous circus catches I've ever seen to extend the game winning drive against the Lions? Flukes and unusual circumstances go the other way too, like the refs blowing 3 consecutive calls to take 3 points off the board in Seattle in a game we finished down 6 points inside FG range.

It happens. Sometimes we catch the breaks, sometimes we don't. The mental gymnastics required to give nobody credit for anything must be tiring.

[WagonCircler]

It happens. Sometimes we catch the breaks, sometimes we don't. The mental gymnastics required to give nobody credit for anything must be tiring.

Funny how teams like New England and Pittsburgh catch more breaks.

Maybe it's not luck. Maybe they're just better.

The Bills are run by hacks. That's why they will never be better than 8-8 or 9-7.

When the team wasn't run by hacks, they caught enough breaks to go to four straight Super Bowls.

Funny how that works.

[OpIv37]

There is a bad habit around here of throwing all the babies together in the tub and tossing them all out together.

Tyrod Taylor alone makes Whaley a solid GM.

Whaley is not our problem. He stays, Rex goes, and keep Tyrod at 15.9 while looking to the draft for something better.

Replace people when you have something better in hand.

You think Doug Whaley deserves credit for finding the 27th best QB in the league and repeating the same mistake this team made with Fitz by prematurely giving him a big contract?

Wow. This is so delusional I don't even know how to respond.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Funny how teams like New England and Pittsburgh catch more breaks.
Maybe it's not luck. Maybe they're just better.
The Bills are run by hacks. That's why they will never be better than 8-8 or 9-7.

When the team wasn't run by hacks, they caught enough breaks to go to four straight Super Bowls.
Funny how that works.

They are better teams, but did that get that way by dumping their front office and coach every two seasons?

[WagonCircler]

They are better teams, but did that get that way by dumping their front office and coach every two seasons?

If their front office and coach sucked, they would, but since they're good organizations, they don't have hacks like Russ Brandon hiring hacks like Doug Whaley and Rex Ryan.

[trapezeus]

the .500 teams whaley has haven't been promising. you didn't think, wow, a few breaks didn't go our way. I would argue that the breaks went our way. we had some easy schedules. and we blew the games. no doubt rex is a terrible game day coach and his prep for the games is pathetic. no gm can supply Rex with the talent he needs. he did well once with a stud Safety and LB. and he hasn't really been the same since. But Whaley missed on EJ, he's missed on TT, he missed on kevin kolb,he missed on kyle orton. we can't say .500 football for the last 10 years is good for us and as a result is something to build on. we are at the ceiling with this management staff and coaches. I would rather go 3-13 and see a team that competes with less talent and has a trajectory upward than this flat, uninspired team.

[OpIv37]

They are better teams, but did that get that way by dumping their front office and coach every two seasons?
First, we don't dump our staff every two seasons. The only ones that got less than 3 are the two that left on their own volition: Mularkey and Marrone.

Second, the better teams got that way by picking the right coaches and GM'S in the first place. Rex and Whaley aren't good enough. It doesn't matter if they get one season or 10. They aren't going to win enough to make the playoffs.

[Bill Cody]

the Whaley ball lickers in this thread are hilarious

[Arm of Harm]

1) Finding a starting QB as a street free agent for less than 10 mill per last year DOES make him a solid GM. As does Zach Brown, Cogs, Alexander

2) Plenty of reasonably intelligent fans here would bury this team in perpetual win less seasons with a draft guide. It's not easy. Not for anyone.

3) Our path to the past decades begins with a pink slip. It's a dollar and a dream regardless. I welcome any clear QB path to the Superbowl or playoffs at the QB position. I see posts long on criticism of what we have and extremely short on solutions.


1) Tyrod Taylor is not the long-term answer at quarterback. Rumor has it that Doug Whaley has figured this out, and is not planning on extending him. As a short-term answer Taylor is not better than Trent Edwards, J.P. Losman, Kelly Holcomb, Kyle Orton, or Ryan Fitzpatrick. In fact he's worse than some of those guys. The fact that Doug Whaley was able to save money at the QB position by acquiring a disappointing player does not impress me, and should not impress you, either.

2) Building a Super Bowl winner is not easy. That much I'll give you. But the standard set by our post-Polian GMs--specifically including Whaley--is much, much lower than that. It's possible my earlier post on the matter was somewhat hyperbolic. But you find someone on one of these message boards whose predictions have been right more often than not, someone whose judgement you trust, and you give that person a pile of draft guides. At that point you have someone who could probably do a better job at drafting than most of our post-Polian GMs. Whaley is not better at drafting than any of our other post-Polian GMs.

3) "Dollar and a dream" applies when a football team is run incompetently. No competent football team would have hired Doug Whaley to be its general manager. Once you stop doing the boneheaded things incompetent football teams do, then that "dollar and a dream" stuff goes right out the window. At that point you've given yourself a real shot.

I've pointed out Bills' front office mistakes as they were being made. I was opposed to the Bledsoe trade. I was not happy with the Losman pick, or with the decision to draft Donte Whitner eighth overall. I felt defeated when the Bills announced the Manuel selection. This is not 20/20 hindsight. This is me, as a casual fan, seeing mistakes the Bills were making as they were being made. If a team is going to hoist the Lombardi Trophy, its decisions need to be better than those casual fans like me would make.

You want solutions? The solution starts with the QB position. Look for college prospects who display very good accuracy and ability to process information rapidly. Eschew "raw" prospects with good physical tools. QBs who fit the template I've described include Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, and Derek Carr. (Among others.) The Bills could have drafted any of those guys. We chose not to; instead preferring the raw prospect/good physical tools type QB. Not every QB who fits my template will go on to have a good career in the NFL. Christian Ponder comes to mind. The template can't guarantee the success of any one pick. What it does do is give you your best possible chance of success. The Bills front office obviously has no use for this template, and hasn't had a use for it in many years. The last time the Bills drafted a QB who amounted to anything was during Ronald Reagan's first term as president.

[DraftBoy]

It seems like a lot of the posters will sprint from a thread bashing Rex - where they claim that this team is playoff caliber being held back by bad coaching - to a thread bashing Whaley - where they claim this is a team with below replacement level talent.

As faint as that praise may be, this is the most successful stretch of Bills football in a decade. Who is responsible for that improvement?

Yep, you can't have it both ways.

[Mace]

It seems like a lot of the posters will sprint from a thread bashing Rex - where they claim that this team is playoff caliber being held back by bad coaching - to a thread bashing Whaley - where they claim this is a team with below replacement level talent.

As faint as that praise may be, this is the most successful stretch of Bills football in a decade. Who is responsible for that improvement?

Not me, Whaley is a pro personnel guy pretending to be GM supplying inadequate talent to an ineffective coach in Ryan.

Might be the most successful stretch of Bills football in a decade, but I don't know "improving" to solidly mediocre isn't setting a real low bar for praising an established front office. If you want to always be floating around 8-8 sure. The team I see on the field doesn't look on the upswing to me, they look to be at their ceiling while being snug up against the cap like contenders are.

[jills]

He could have said yes to trading Robert Woods instead of Kiko but I know we can't give credit for that.
The same Kiko who's having a better year in Miami?

[sudzy]

They are better teams, but did that get that way by dumping their front office and coach every two seasons?

The difference is those teams have solid ownership with a good football knowledge that have hired on good people at the top. Now, Ralph did good when he put Polian in charge. But, Polian was no yes man and the two butted heads and went separate ways. Then Butler and Ralph had disagreements and Butler left for San Diego. After Donahoe blew up in his face, Ralph surrounded himself with "yes men" like Brandon who were clueless about the NFL. Now when Pegula took over it was clear he didn't know anything about running an NFL team, that is why he tried to bring in Polian. When that didn't happen, he kept Brandon, who knows a little bit more then Terry, but, enough to keep Terry bull****ted. This is why the Steelers are always a playoff contender and Bills are always mediocre.

[Night Train]

He really needs to go, since his only thinking right now is self preservation by getting rid of Rex and promoting Lynn to keep his power.

Spinning wheels, spinning round. Pitch my ticket if that happens.