He's not ready but

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Cardale is still better than ej.

Ankther thing is im not sure ej will get another job in The NFL again. He's not even good enough to be a backup. At least tyrod would be a good solid serviceable backup.

[Mr. Pink]

Cardale is flaming garbage.

Same flaming garbage he was at Ohio State.

He showed absolutely nothing different and a year of watching film, working in practice or the scout team did nothing.

[sudzy]

I wouldn't be against keeping Cardale as a 3rd string guy next year. Hang on to him a few years. But, if you don't bring back Tyrod somehow, you need to sign someone and draft someone. An with Whaley drafting our QBs? Oh, boy.

[Mr. Pink]

I wouldn't be against keeping Cardale as a 3rd string guy next year. Hang on to him a few years. But, if you don't bring back Tyrod somehow, you need to sign someone and draft someone. An with Whaley drafting our QBs? Oh, boy.

I'd agree with keeping him as the 3rd QB...but there's no reason that he should see the field even next year after watching that.

He showed zero progression from Ohio State to that 4th quarter.

[feldspar]

Does anybody fear that someone would claim Cardale if we put him on the practice squad?

[Thurmal]

For it being the first game he even dressed, he wasn't bad. The fact that he has a little bit of velocity on his passes and attempts throws over 4 yards makes him a better prospect than Manuel or Taylor.

That being said, we need to target a QB that has:

1) ACCURACY -- this is the most important attribute, and it can't be taught! The guy just has to have it!
2) Pocket presence
3) The ability to read a defense

Mobility and athleticism are all well and good, but if they have deficiencies in the three aforementioned attributes, they WILL NOT be successful and, historically, they never will be.

[sudzy]

Does anybody fear that someone would claim Cardale if we put him on the practice squad?

Not really

[The Beef]

Cardale had one innacurate throw on the swing pass.

He's far better than EJ.

He should've played the entire game. His fatal flaw will be forcing passes. He could've had a couple more INT's, he has no feel dor anyone in the front 7 droping into a passing lane.

[Mr. Pink]

For it being the first game he even dressed, he wasn't bad. The fact that he has a little bit of velocity on his passes and attempts throws over 4 yards makes him a better prospect than Manuel or Taylor.

That being said, we need to target a QB that has:

1) ACCURACY -- this is the most important attribute, and it can't be taught! The guy just has to have it!
2) Pocket presence
3) The ability to read a defense

Mobility and athleticism are all well and good, but if they have deficiencies in the three aforementioned attributes, they WILL NOT be successful and, historically, they never will be.

Problem is, those 3 things you listed, are all Cardale's weaknesses. They were weaknesses at Ohio State too.

[Thurmal]

Problem is, those 3 things you listed, are all Cardale's weaknesses. They were weaknesses at Ohio State too.
Yeah, I don't think he's the future.

I can't reiterate enough how important accuracy is for a QB. I have never seen an inaccurate QB suddenly start lacing passes. But I have seen immobile, weak-armed QBs with decent accuracy consistently win games (Chad Pennington, for example). It's the #1 attribute when looking for "the guy."

[mdcas22]

gonna have to trade for a QB this off season and draft 1 somewhere, go into next year with the starter (VET) Jone's and the drafted rookie.

[BillsImpossible]

I'd agree with keeping him as the 3rd QB...but there's no reason that he should see the field even next year after watching that.

He showed zero progression from Ohio State to that 4th quarter.

Jones was a noticeable improvement over EJ Manuel.

He doesn't hold on to the ball too long and makes quick decisions.

Not like the Jets knew the Bills were going to pass being down 23-3 in the 4th quarter...

Put Cardale's performance in context.

He threw the best pass of the day on either side of the ball that resulted in the Bills only score.

For his fist performance as a Buffalo Bill, being put in the ****tiest of ****ty situations, Cardale Jones did quite well.

EJ Manuel's stats vs the Jets:

http://www.nfl.com/player/ejmanuel/2539228/gamelogs

9/20 for 86 yards with 4.3 yards per pass average.

Cardale Jones?

http://www.nfl.com/player/cardalejones/2555426/careerstats

6/11 for 96 yards.

"He showed zero progression from Ohio State to that 4th quarter."

Cardale Jones only outperformed a 4 year NFL starter/backup in less than 15 minutes.

[BillsImpossible]

Yeah, I don't think he's the future.

I can't reiterate enough how important accuracy is for a QB. I have never seen an inaccurate QB suddenly start lacing passes. But I have seen immobile, weak-armed QBs with decent accuracy consistently win games (Chad Pennington, for example). It's the #1 attribute when looking for "the guy."

Chad Pennington?

He had mensa level IQ too right?

You're better than that, Thurmal.

[Novacane]

Does anybody fear that someone would claim Cardale if we put him on the practice squad?

Bills Impossible

[BillsImpossible]

Marquise Goodwin dropped a great pass by CJones today, which would have put him well over 100 yards.

That would have been a 15-20 yard gain if Goodwin caught an excellent pass that was on the money.

That's crazy compared to EJ's stats.

Cardale Jones was only on pace to pass for almost 400 yards if he started the game.

[BillsImpossible]

If I was Cardale Jones, I would be honored to have my first ever NFL interception caught by Darrelle Revis.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Drench the garbage with gasoline, light a match and watch it burn

[WagonCircler]

Jones was a noticeable improvement over EJ Manuel..

Betty White would be a noticeable improvement over EJ Manuel.

[BillsImpossible]

Drench the garbage with gasoline, light a match and watch it burn

Self immolation is never a good idea.

Step off the ledge, MST3KBillsfan.

It's going to alright!

Do the math!

The Bills have a trebuchet!

6/11 for 96 yards X 4 = ?

[BillsImpossible]

Betty White would be a noticeable improvement over EJ Manuel.

First quarter, Bills are on the 10 yard line ready to score and EJ throws a pass that.....you know.

[justasportsfan]

The only thing we can hope from what weve seen at this point is that he could progress into a decent back up.

[BillsImpossible]

The only thing we can hope from what weve seen at this point is that he could progress into a decent back up.

6 out of 11 for 96 yards in his first ever showing....against a defense that knew he was going to throw, late in the game down 23-3.

I wouldn't call that kind of performance, "a decent back up."

Cardale Jones outperformed EJ Manuel's 3 quarters (and 4 scoreless years...) of horrible quarterbacking in less than 15 minutes.

[Mr. Pink]

Marquise Goodwin dropped a great pass by CJones today, which would have put him well over 100 yards.

That would have been a 15-20 yard gain if Goodwin caught an excellent pass that was on the money.

That's crazy compared to EJ's stats.

Cardale Jones was only on pace to pass for almost 400 yards if he started the game.

And if the corner didn't fall down on the route Hunter ran, Cardale wuld have thrown for 32 yards...all in garbage time.

About your previous post, Cardale isn't even a noticeable improvement over former Bills QB Thad Lewis.

[WagonCircler]

And if the corner didn't fall down on the route Hunter ran, Cardale wuld have thrown for 32 yards...all in garbage time.

About your previous post, Cardale isn't even a noticeable improvement over former Bills QB Thad Lewis.

And as it was. Hunter had to stand there and wait for the ball like he was fielding a punt.

[ICRockets]

And if the corner didn't fall down on the route Hunter ran, Cardale wuld have thrown for 32 yards...all in garbage time.

About your previous post, Cardale isn't even a noticeable improvement over former Bills QB Thad Lewis.

I hope you're not one of the guys who slammed Tyrod for not taking risks downfield, because if you are then this post proves you're full of ****. That was the kind of throw I've wanted Tyrod to make all year. Maybe Hunter comes down with it, maybe not; but you won't know if you don't give him the same shot 31 other teams give their tall receivers on jump balls.

[Mace]

The truth of it though, is that we had/have two raw development guys without a viable QB coach. They need to get a real QB coach no matter what they do or who they pick if they expect any development whatever from anyone. Since Manuel, they've had no QB coach/Boy Hackett, the guy that made Stafford regress, and Wildcat Lee.

[ICRockets]

And as it was. Hunter had to stand there and wait for the ball like he was fielding a punt.

Or like it was a routine 50/50 ball that every team in the league throws.

[ICRockets]

The truth of it though, is that we had/have two raw development guys without a viable QB coach. They need to get a real QB coach no matter what they do or who they pick if they expect any development whatever from anyone. Since Manuel, they've had no QB coach/Boy Hackett, the guy that made Stafford regress, and Wildcat Lee.

Yep. That's why, at least until today (now I'm less certain), I wanted Anthony Lynn as our head coach. He can handle our running game and presumably maintain its efficacy next season, and then we can bring in a passing-oriented offensive coordinator who fills his staff with experienced guys who know how to coach up young QBs. Make that the new OC's near-exclusive focal point.

[Mace]

Yep. That's why, at least until today (now I'm less certain), I wanted Anthony Lynn as our head coach. He can handle our running game and presumably maintain its efficacy next season, and then we can bring in a passing-oriented offensive coordinator who fills his staff with experienced guys who know how to coach up young QBs. Make that the new OC's near-exclusive focal point.

I have a feeling handling the offense and head coaching might be too much for him at this point.

[ICRockets]

I have a feeling handling the offense and head coaching might be too much for him at this point.

It very well could be, but it's difficult to say for sure after only one game with a skeleton crew for a staff. Basically went into this game without an OC or a DC, and boy did it show.

[Mr. Pink]

I hope you're not one of the guys who slammed Tyrod for not taking risks downfield, because if you are then this post proves you're full of ****. That was the kind of throw I've wanted Tyrod to make all year. Maybe Hunter comes down with it, maybe not; but you won't know if you don't give him the same shot 31 other teams give their tall receivers on jump balls.

He threw one ball downfield the entire quarter, that bomb to Hunter.

Everything else, minus that one sideline pass which actually required zip, is the same garbage we've seen year after year.

The only difference between Cardale and the other captain checkdowns is he doesn't care what the coverage is and will throw it anyway. Mainly because he can't read a defense and wouldn't know how to look off a safety if the game depended on it.

[justasportsfan]

6 out of 11 for 96 yards in his first ever showing....against a defense that knew he was going to throw, late in the game down 23-3.

I wouldn't call that kind of performance, "a decent back up."

Cardale Jones outperformed EJ Manuel's 3 quarters (and 4 scoreless years...) of horrible quarterbacking in less than 15 minutes.

No. He played a team that gave up on the season. Lets not lower the bar. He wont be doing much against the pats.

Everytime I look at a qb these days I only want to know how he will do vs the pats. Thats why I dont think Tyrod is the answer. We will always have to come from behind to beat the pats if we keep a run first philosophy. and Tyrod I want a qb who can throw and right now Cardale hasnt impressed me enough to say he even looked like a starter. Not saying he wont get there other than he looked like a back up playing a preseason game

[Mace]

Unless they get a pro ready guy, rare, (and even if they do) they need a real QB coach.

[ICRockets]

he looked like a back up playing a preseason game

He kind of was. 4th quarter of a game we had already lost is basically the first quarter of the 2017 preseason.

[ICRockets]

The only difference between Cardale and the other captain checkdowns is he doesn't care what the coverage is and will throw it anyway. Mainly because he can't read a defense and wouldn't know how to look off a safety if the game depended on it.

Well, thank GOD we have your ****ing prescient ass here to tell us all how someone's career is going to go based on the ~7 minutes of game action he saw in his rookie season. Got any lottery numbers to share, ****head?

[Jimkelly12203]

There is no hope for this team's immediate future. We can only pray that they are so horrible next year and that ticket sales are so abysmal that the Pegulas finally decide to nuke the whole thing.

Until then...

[Jimkelly12203]

And as it was. Hunter had to stand there and wait for the ball like he was fielding a punt.
And this is the Bills passing offense regardless of which of our three not good enough QBs takes the field.

Taylor is not remotely good enough. And yet he is worlds better than the other two clowns. WORLDS BETTER!

There is no hope for this franchise.

[Jimkelly12203]

The truth of it though, is that we had/have two raw development guys without a viable QB coach. They need to get a real QB coach no matter what they do or who they pick if they expect any development whatever from anyone. Since Manuel, they've had no QB coach/Boy Hackett, the guy that made Stafford regress, and Wildcat Lee.

It wouldn't make any difference because the guys we have are inaccurate and do not see the field. You can't teach the kinds of deficiencies we have at QB. You either have guys that have the ability or you have guys that don't.

Credit Tyrod for being a great game manager. The team would almost certainly be in the playoffs if our offense had Schwartz D.

He's still not remotely close to being worth any sort of long-term deal to say nothing of franchise QB money.

[Mace]

It wouldn't make any difference because the guys we have are inaccurate and do not see the field. You can't teach the kinds of deficiencies we have at QB. You either have guys that have the ability or you have guys that don't.

Credit Tyrod for being a great game manager. The team would almost certainly be in the playoffs if our offense had Schwartz D.

He's still not remotely close to being worth any sort of long-term deal to say nothing of franchise QB money.

I have to entirely disagree and strongly. Spread QB's coming out of college have 1 or 2 reads and take no snaps under center. There are 0 pure spread offenses in the NFL, and successful former spread QB's. They are taught reads and pro offense against complex defense. A spread QB coming out of college is trained NOT to see the field, he's trained for his 1 or 2 reads from a shotgun. You draft development guys you need develop them. If you have no one to develop them, they won't learn what they're not being taught.

It's that simple.

[Mr. Pink]

Well, thank GOD we have your ****ing prescient ass here to tell us all how someone's career is going to go based on the ~7 minutes of game action he saw in his rookie season. Got any lottery numbers to share, ****head?

I'm honestly curious if you watch any football that's not Buffalo Bills. If so, you'd see what a real NFL QB looks and plays like.

Cardale Jones looked exactly the same as he did last year when Urban Meyer thought he wasn't even good enough for college football and kept yanking him out of games. But maybe your ability to judge Cardale is better than Urban Meyers!

[ICRockets]

I'm honestly curious if you watch any football that's not Buffalo Bills. If so, you'd see what a real NFL QB looks and plays like.

Cardale Jones looked exactly the same as he did last year when Urban Meyer thought he wasn't even good enough for college football and kept yanking him out of games. But maybe your ability to judge Cardale is better than Urban Meyers!

I don't pay a lot of attention to Ohio St, but my understanding was that Meyer "kept yanking (Cardale)" because he wanted to use more than 1 QB last season.

[kishoph]

For it being the first game he even dressed, he wasn't bad. The fact that he has a little bit of velocity on his passes and attempts throws over 4 yards makes him a better prospect than Manuel or Taylor.

That being said, we need to target a QB that has:

1) ACCURACY -- this is the most important attribute, and it can't be taught! The guy just has to have it!
2) Pocket presence
3) The ability to read a defense

Mobility and athleticism are all well and good, but if they have deficiencies in the three aforementioned attributes, they WILL NOT be successful and, historically, they never will be.


Problem is, those 3 things you listed, are all Cardale's weaknesses. They were weaknesses at Ohio State too.

Those 3 things are the weakness of every QB on the Bills roster right now.

[kishoph]

Marquise Goodwin dropped a great pass by CJones today, which would have put him well over 100 yards.

That would have been a 15-20 yard gain if Goodwin caught an excellent pass that was on the money.

That's crazy compared to EJ's stats.

Cardale Jones was only on pace to pass for almost 400 yards if he started the game.

And 4 interceptions.

[BertSquirtgum]

Cardale is still better than ej.

Ankther thing is im not sure ej will get another job in The NFL again. He's not even good enough to be a backup. At least tyrod would be a good solid serviceable backup.

Not seeing him play in awhile made me forget how bad he is in games that don't count. I felt bad for him because he sucked so bad. I'm pretty sure he is done in the NFL. And I think he knew it too, by the look on his face.

[WagonCircler]

I don't pay a lot of attention to Ohio St, but my understanding was that Meyer "kept yanking (Cardale)" because he wanted to use more than 1 QB last season.

You just keep telling yourself that. Because it makes sooooo much sense.

You're the Mayor of Delusionville.

- - - Updated - - -


Those 3 things are the weakness of every QB on the Bills roster right now.


And yet, the man who acquired all of them is immune from accountability.

[ICRockets]

You just keep telling yourself that. Because it makes sooooo much sense.



http://www.si.com/college-football/2015/10/12/ohio-state-buckeyes-two-quarterback-system

**** off, you stupid piece of ****.

[YardRat]

Urban Meyer is by no means a QB guru of any kind, and the vast majority of his college QB's fail miserably at the pro level. The only real feather in his cap is Smith, and he took a long time to develop. If anything, Meyer is at least partially responsible for the garbage that colleges are putting out nowadays at that position.

[Mace]

Urban Meyer is by no means a QB guru of any kind, and the vast majority of his college QB's fail miserably at the pro level. The only real feather in his cap is Smith, and he took a long time to develop. If anything, Meyer is at least partially responsible for the garbage that colleges are putting out nowadays at that position.

I'd like to see Cardale spend some time with QB guru Tom House this offseason and come back to a real QB coach to ride the pines another year. I'd like to see an organization that would encourage it and make it so.

Urban pretty much lost me with Tebow. How can you coach a kid that long without helping him prepare for the NFL by working on that throwing motion unless you just don't give a crap. Fixing that motion would have helped Meyer too.

[BillsImpossible]

I'm honestly curious if you watch any football that's not Buffalo Bills. If so, you'd see what a real NFL QB looks and plays like.

Cardale Jones looked exactly the same as he did last year when Urban Meyer thought he wasn't even good enough for college football and kept yanking him out of games. But maybe your ability to judge Cardale is better than Urban Meyers!

Clemson 31

Ohio State 0

[Mace]

Clemson 31

Ohio State 0

Ahhhh, they had no Trebuchet, Imp !

[BillsImpossible]

And if the corner didn't fall down on the route Hunter ran, Cardale wuld have thrown for 32 yards...all in garbage time.

About your previous post, Cardale isn't even a noticeable improvement over former Bills QB Thad Lewis.

Garbage time? The whole game was garbage time!

How many times did Tyrod Taylor miss a wide open receiver this season?

15-20 times at least.

At least Cardale Jones threw to a wide open receiver!

How many times did you see Tyrod Taylor call an audible this year?

Cardale Jones called an audible! The play didn't work, but that's ballsy in his first ever NFL game.

And that 65 yard pass to Hunter had a lot to do with Jones telling A. Lynn he wanted to rip the ball downfield to shake the short passing jitters according to the Buffalo News article I read today.

[Mace]

I'm honestly curious if you watch any football that's not Buffalo Bills. If so, you'd see what a real NFL QB looks and plays like.

Cardale Jones looked exactly the same as he did last year when Urban Meyer thought he wasn't even good enough for college football and kept yanking him out of games. But maybe your ability to judge Cardale is better than Urban Meyers!

I'd honestly say it just means we drafted a raw prospect and didn't refine him any with an NFL coach qualified to teach quarterbacks. He's not going to improve any under Wildcat Lee and running lane mentor Taylor, but doesn't mean he couldn't if someone was trying to teach him anything.

[BillsImpossible]

EJ was a tire fire! The same tire fire that's been burning at OBD since he was drafted.

Remember his start against Jacksonville last year?

Remember JP Losman's first career start against the Patriots?

Those are prime examples of a tire fire.

Cardale Jones was not a tire fire, even though given the situation he was put in, he should have been a Bethlehem steel factory fire I could smell in Cheektavegas.

Didn't happen!

Without Cardale Jones, the final score would have been 31-3.

[Bill Cody]

I'd like to see Cardale spend some time with QB guru Tom House this offseason and come back to a real QB coach to ride the pines another year.


I'm on board with the value of good coaching. Todd Haley has brought Ben Rothlisberger to another level, no doubt about it. But Cardale Jones is not an accurate passer. I don't see coaching fixing it. This guy is a black Tim Tebow. Wasted pick. Keep him on the bench another year. THEN cut him.

[Bill Cody]

I'd like to see Cardale spend some time with QB guru Tom House this offseason and come back to a real QB coach to ride the pines another year.


I'm on board with the value of good coaching. Todd Haley has brought Ben Rothlisberger to another level, no doubt about it. But Cardale Jones is not an accurate passer. I don't see coaching fixing it. This guy is a black Tim Tebow. Wasted pick. Keep him on the bench another year. THEN cut him.

[BillsImpossible]

And 4 interceptions.

I'd rather have almost 400 yards passing and 4 Int's than a tire fire.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

I'd rather have almost 400 yards passing and 4 Int's than a tire fire.
sounds like fitzy to me.... except for when he plays us

[BillsImpossible]

sounds like fitzy to me.... except for when he plays us

1 quarter's worth of QB experience vs. 127 games!

You're trying way too hard to be negative.

[Mace]

I'm on board with the value of good coaching. Todd Haley has brought Ben Rothlisberger to another level, no doubt about it. But Cardale Jones is not an accurate passer. I don't see coaching fixing it. This guy is a black Tim Tebow. Wasted pick. Keep him on the bench another year. THEN cut him.

I'm not really saying Cardale IS all that. But you don't draft a raw Manuel and a raw Jones and give them junk QB coaches. Wildcat Lee has a long career of not developing QB's. Look at his offense ? You have a QB coach who doesn't know passing refining QB's ?

I can appreciate your thought, but I can't agree. There's no viable business anywhere that hires untrained people, doesn't train them for jobs they're unsuited for, and expects progress from the candidate. I didn't have the vaguest idea how to wipe a car fast and efficient with others loaded up behind it in short intervals when Delta Sonic hired me for my first real job, so they had a guy show me.

I knew how to wipe, I knew what I had to wipe, knew how to use a towel, knew how to get a new one and what to do with the old one, , but I had no clue how to apply it all for effective results on cars in short order. Believe it or not it was a technique and a fluid motion, and that was just wiping cars.

[Bill Cody]

I knew how to wipe, I knew what I had to wipe, knew how to use a towel, knew how to get a new one and what to do with the old one, , but I had no clue how to apply it all for effective results on cars in short order. Believe it or not it was a technique and a fluid motion, and that was just wiping cars.

I like this analogy, it makes perfect sense. Especially in the context of Cardale Jones who might find the training you received quite valuable in a couple of years.

[Arm of Harm]

I'm not really saying Cardale IS all that. But you don't draft a raw Manuel and a raw Jones and give them junk QB coaches. Wildcat Lee has a long career of not developing QB's. Look at his offense ? You have a QB coach who doesn't know passing refining QB's ?

I can appreciate your thought, but I can't agree. There's no viable business anywhere that hires untrained people, doesn't train them for jobs they're unsuited for, and expects progress from the candidate. I didn't have the vaguest idea how to wipe a car fast and efficient with others loaded up behind it in short intervals when Delta Sonic hired me for my first real job, so they had a guy show me.

I knew how to wipe, I knew what I had to wipe, knew how to use a towel, knew how to get a new one and what to do with the old one, , but I had no clue how to apply it all for effective results on cars in short order. Believe it or not it was a technique and a fluid motion, and that was just wiping cars.


You make a strong point about the value of good training and good mentoring. No argument there. But an NFL team has a very limited number of roster spots. Typically, no more than two to three of those spots are used on QBs. That sharply limits the number of guys to whom you can provide the good training and good mentoring. If you give an opportunity to a guy who didn't deserve it, then that means you excluded some other player who had earned it. The Cardale Jones pick was a mistake not just because of the wasted fourth rounder, but also because it's one more year when we failed to give a roster spot to a QB who'd demonstrated accuracy and fast information processing ability at the college level. Not every guy who demonstrates those things in college is destined to become the next Joe Montana. But by systematically excluding all such players from the QBs he drafts, Doug Whaley creates the virtual certainty that we will not obtain a real QB as long as he's general manager.

[ICRockets]

You make a strong point about the value of good training and good mentoring. No argument there.

The rest of your post argued against this by saying good training and good mentoring are only good with QBs that are already good at the things they need to be trained and mentored at.

[WagonCircler]

a QB who'd demonstrated accuracy and fast information processing ability at the college level. Not every guy who demonstrates those things in college is destined to become the next Joe Montana.

But 100% of those who don't will fail. THIS should be the first disqualifier. Above all else. But it's not even on Whaley's list.

[ICRockets]

But 100% of those who don't will fail.

Cam Newton. Suck a dick.

[WagonCircler]

Cam Newton. Suck a dick.


How's his year going?

You'd like to suck his dick, wouldn't you.

He has some free time. Give him a call.

[Mr. Pink]

Cam Newton. Suck a dick.

First overall pick vs a 4th round flier...

Come on now, Cardale couldn't carry Cam's jock.

[ICRockets]

First overall pick vs a 4th round flier...

Come on now, Cardale couldn't carry Cam's jock.

It might help if you tried reading conversations before joining them. If you did, you'd know that this response has nothing to do with why I mentioned Cam.

[ICRockets]

How's his year going?

I didn't realize he was a rookie and only had this year to go on. Well, now I'm confused. Who was the NFL MVP last season?

[Arm of Harm]

The rest of your post argued against this by saying good training and good mentoring are only good with QBs that are already good at the things they need to be trained and mentored at.


That's absolutely right.

Consider a guy like Joe Montana. He was already a very accurate QB even in high school. Then he went on to college, and became known as an extremely accurate QB there. I absolutely want my training and mentoring to go first and foremost to guys like that, because they've earned it. They've shown high upside in the areas that matter most. Whereas, a QB who isn't accurate in college or who isn't good at processing information in college will almost never develop those abilities as a pro.

It's true that Cam Newton's predraft evaluation (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/cam-newton?id=2495455) raised questions about his accuracy and information processing speed. Even though his 2016 season was a disappointment, he's definitely had more good seasons than bad. But for every one Cam Newton story, there are many Tim Tebow stories, or J.P. Losman stories, or Jamarcus Russell stories. Stories about guys who were selected way too high because of their physical gifts, without having demonstrated accuracy and/or fast information processing speed at the college level. Taking a physically gifted, inaccurate, slow-eyed QB, in hopes of getting the next Cam Newton, is a very low percentage play. The type of strategy which, assuming Whaley continues to pursue it, could easily tack another decade or two on to our playoff drought.

A QB's primary job is to quickly choose the right target, then accurately throw that target the ball. So it makes sense that information processing speed and throwing accuracy are the two primary traits one should look for in a QB.

[ICRockets]

A QB's primary job is to quickly choose the right target, then accurately throw that target the ball. So it makes sense that information processing speed and throwing accuracy are the two primary traits one should look for in a QB.

I'm not disputing that, though I would put arm strength/throwing velocity on the list of must-have skills as well. I mentioned Cam Newton because OneManCircleJerker said "100%" of QBs without those skills in college will fail in the NFL, and it took me all of 12 seconds to identify someone who makes that an objectively bull**** sentiment.

[Arm of Harm]

I'm not disputing that, though I would put arm strength/throwing velocity on the list of must-have skills as well. I mentioned Cam Newton because OneManCircleJerker said "100%" of QBs without those skills in college will fail in the NFL, and it took me all of 12 seconds to identify someone who makes that an objectively bull**** sentiment.

I would argue that there's a certain minimum level of arm strength a QB should have. If a guy like Kelly Holcomb falls below that minimum, then that largely negates other positive traits he might have.

Joe Montana didn't have particularly good arm strength, which is one reason he was still available in the third round. But his arm was stronger than Holcomb's, and above the minimum you look for in a QB. Could Montana have had an even better career if he'd had the same level of arm strength as Terry Bradshaw? Yes, absolutely. But at that point, the extra arm strength would have just been a little extra icing on the cake. Even without that extra arm strength, Montana was among the five best QBs ever to play the game.

Suppose that a QB's arm strength is somewhat disappointing, like Montana's. That's going to force him into a heavy reliance on shorter passes. Which means that the QB needs to get all the mileage out of those shorter passes he can possibly get. It's very difficult to make a living with the short passing game if all you can do is hit stationary targets. If on the other hand you can hit targets moving horizontally--which Montana did very, very well--then suddenly your short passing attack becomes much harder to defend. The ability to hit horizontally moving targets is compensation for a lack of ideal arm strength.

[ICRockets]

I would argue that there's a certain minimum level of arm strength a QB should have. If a guy like Kelly Holcomb falls below that minimum, then that largely negates other positive traits he might have.

Joe Montana didn't have particularly good arm strength, which is one reason he was still available in the third round. But his arm was stronger than Holcomb's, and above the minimum you look for in a QB. Could Montana have had an even better career if he'd had the same level of arm strength as Terry Bradshaw? Yes, absolutely. But at that point, the extra arm strength would have just been a little extra icing on the cake. Even without that extra arm strength, Montana was among the five best QBs ever to play the game.

Suppose that a QB's arm strength is somewhat disappointing, like Montana's. That's going to force him into a heavy reliance on shorter passes. Which means that the QB needs to get all the mileage out of those shorter passes he can possibly get. It's very difficult to make a living with the short passing game if all you can do is hit stationary targets. If on the other hand you can hit targets moving horizontally--which Montana did very, very well--then suddenly your short passing attack becomes much harder to defend. The ability to hit horizontally moving targets is compensation for a lack of ideal arm strength.

Before I revised my wording, Kelly Holcomb was the example I was going to use for a weak-armed QB. Get the **** out of my head!!

[Mace]

You make a strong point about the value of good training and good mentoring. No argument there. But an NFL team has a very limited number of roster spots. Typically, no more than two to three of those spots are used on QBs. That sharply limits the number of guys to whom you can provide the good training and good mentoring. If you give an opportunity to a guy who didn't deserve it, then that means you excluded some other player who had earned it. The Cardale Jones pick was a mistake not just because of the wasted fourth rounder, but also because it's one more year when we failed to give a roster spot to a QB who'd demonstrated accuracy and fast information processing ability at the college level. Not every guy who demonstrates those things in college is destined to become the next Joe Montana. But by systematically excluding all such players from the QBs he drafts, Doug Whaley creates the virtual certainty that we will not obtain a real QB as long as he's general manager.

I can agree with chunks of this, but the reality is that we have a developmental guy without a QB coach to develop him, and we went years now with another developmental guy and no one to develop him.

Most teams always have a developmental guy who has, well someone to develop him.

You aren't going to find QB's you are sure "deserve" it. They're 1 or 2 read spread QB's coming out of college, running Air Raid offenses. Being accurate on 1 or 2 reads isn't indicative. Tim Tebow came out of college with 66.4 % accuracy and 86 TD's vs 16 int's. Meant nothing in the NFL.

Wentz went into the loving arms of Reich & DeFillippo, Prescott to OC Linehan and QB coach Wade Williams, Bortles ended his 2015 season looking better after working with Tom House, then regressed under Hackett.

Whatever QB you get, whoever you get, is not likely to come in polished. Not having a viable QB coach ensures failure, having one gives at least possibility of improvement.

[Mace]

First overall pick vs a 4th round flier...

Come on now, Cardale couldn't carry Cam's jock.

Are you kidding ? Cardale could probably carry Cam, his agent and a podium.

[Mr. Pink]

Are you kidding ? Cardale could probably carry Cam, his agent and a podium.

He may be able to carry Akili Smith's jock, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Mace]

He may be able to carry Akili Smith's jock, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Cardale is a great tower of a man, Pink. You know he could carry Akili and Cam no matter what they were wearing.

[ICRockets]

He may be able to carry Akili Smith's jock, but I wouldn't bet on it.

You're really great at reading comprehension.

[Mr. Pink]

You're really great at reading comprehension.

I'm having fun!

Go Kordell Stewart...I mean Tyrod Taylor!

[BillsImpossible]

Cardale Jones is Tyrod Taylor at 6'5 250 lbs.

He is just as good as Tyrod Taylor is at running the football, but has a unique ability to see and pass to wide open receivers downfield.

I asked before, and I'll ask again....can you remember a single time when Tyrod Taylor called an audible in 2016?

[stuckincincy]

He may be able to carry Akili Smith's jock, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Smith was a fine athlete, tough as nails, but no quarterback. I give him credit - he tried his best while playing behind an OL that was beyond putrid.

I was pleased when he got cut and Owner Brown had to cough up $4M (big money back then). The bad fallout was that the b'gals never eat a contract now, even if the player reeks. One of the reasons they have the playoff record they do. The other being their Coach-for-Life.

Factoid: Brown nixed Ditka's offer for his entire draft to move up to pick Ricky Williams. and demanded that Akili be the pick. Then-HC Bruce Coslet was livid.

[ICRockets]

I asked before, and I'll ask again....can you remember a single time when Tyrod Taylor called an audible in 2016?
The majority of what you post in this forum, much like in Bufftp, is crazytown bananapants. But this is a point I'd love to hear Anthony Lynn comment on because you're right that Cardale's willingness to audible was evident whereas Tyrod's has not been at all.

[jamze132]

A lot of you want Romo but that means that Cardale is your #2. Scrary...

[Bill Cody]

I can agree with chunks of this, but the reality is that we have a developmental guy without a QB coach to develop him, and we went years now with another developmental guy and no one to develop him.

Most teams always have a developmental guy who has, well someone to develop him.

You aren't going to find QB's you are sure "deserve" it. They're 1 or 2 read spread QB's coming out of college, running Air Raid offenses. Being accurate on 1 or 2 reads isn't indicative. Tim Tebow came out of college with 66.4 % accuracy and 86 TD's vs 16 int's. Meant nothing in the NFL.

Wentz went into the loving arms of Reich & DeFillippo, Prescott to OC Linehan and QB coach Wade Williams, Bortles ended his 2015 season looking better after working with Tom House, then regressed under Hackett.

Whatever QB you get, whoever you get, is not likely to come in polished. Not having a viable QB coach ensures failure, having one gives at least possibility of improvement.

You want to test your theory? You could probabably get Blake Bortles for a 3rd or 4th if you think you can coach him up. Jacksonville is bringing in a new coach and they may be looking to move on from Bortles with a rookie high draft pick or more likely try to trade for Jimmy Garopollo, just my guess. Bortles has one year left on his rookie deal so it would be a low cost 1 year audition for Buffalo. I'd be more on board with this than bringing back Taylor under a long term deal.

[ICRockets]

You want to test your theory? You could probabably get Blake Bortles for a 3rd or 4th if you think you can coach him up. Jacksonville is bringing in a new coach and they may be looking to move on from Bortles with a rookie high draft pick or more likely try to trade for Jimmy Garopollo, just my guess. Bortles has one year left on his rookie deal so it would be a low cost 1 year audition for Buffalo. I'd be more on board with this than bringing back Taylor under a long term deal.
No, you could not get Blake Bortles for a 3rd or 4th round pick. The Patriots are asking for a 1st AND a 4th for Garopollo, there's no way you get Bortles for less than AT LEAST a 1st round pick.

[Bill Cody]

No, you could not get Blake Bortles for a 3rd or 4th round pick. The Patriots are asking for a 1st AND a 4th for Garopollo, there's no way you get Bortles for less than AT LEAST a 1st round pick.

We'll see won't we? Bortles is a failure so far, no other way to put it, I'd say the odds of getting back a 1st for him are zero. And it remains to be seen what the Patriots get for Jimmy G, asking (and they've said nothing publicly other than some speculation from Adam Schefter) is not the same as getting. But he's worth more than Bortles even with his very limited experience, quicker release, trained next to Brady. Both players can walk at the end of the year so the team that trades for either one has only one year of control, then the player can walk unless he's franchised or signed to a big money extension. That lowers the value. With QB's you never know, Minnesota overpaid for Bradford but that doesn't mean another team will do the same thing for Bortles.

[ICRockets]

We'll see won't we?

No, we won't, because Jacksonville isn't even going to shop Bortles. He had a great season in 2015 and then regressed under Nate Hackett in 2016. If he's on the market, I pay pretty much any price for him. But he won't be, because the Jaguars aren't stupid.

[Bill Cody]

No, we won't, because Jacksonville isn't even going to shop Bortles. He had a great season in 2015 and then regressed under Nate Hackett in 2016. If he's on the market, I pay pretty much any price for him. But he won't be, because the Jaguars aren't stupid.

1st of all no, Bortles did not have a "great" season in 2015 unless by great you mean "below average" or "decent". In today's NFL an under 60% completion percentage and 18 picks is not great, not close to great. Nor is winning 5 games in any way "great". As far as Jacksonville not being stupid, well yes they are in fact stupid which is why they're picking top 10 every year. They're competition for the Bills in terms of bottom feeders. So yes we will see. You don't have a crystal ball on what they'll do or won't do. They have a new coach coming in and they're trying to generate buzz for the team, ticket sales are down. And yes the fans are down on Bortles in Jacksonville, he's getting booed at home. And as for "paying any price" for a guy that as of right now is WORSE than Tyrod Taylor it just exposes your lack of football knowledge. Right now it's a coin flip whether Bortles will flat out bust in the NFL.