Buffalo news and media in general

[DesertFox24]

Well
it is clear after reading Vic's new article that the buffalo media wanted Whaley gone and a football czar. Anything short means we will suck and the dysfunction at one bills drive will continue.

I disagree. This franchise will fail because we will not have a qb and they will trade valuable picks for a guy who is not good enough and buries us even further. This is not due to dysfunction thr franchise qb they want will not be found in round 1 this year. Some guy in the later rounds will be better and be a total luck pick. Which will not be us as Whaley and the bills refuse to draft qbs.

[YardRat]

The media aren't much different than message boards...*****ing results in conversation. People are more likely to buy papers and click links to read pissing and moaning then they are 'rah-rah' homer stuff.

[WagonCircler]

Well
it is clear after reading Vic's new article that the buffalo media wanted Whaley gone and a football czar. Anything short means we will suck and the dysfunction at one bills drive will continue.

I disagree. This franchise will fail because we will not have a qb and they will trade valuable picks for a guy who is not good enough and buries us even further. This is not due to dysfunction thr franchise qb they want will not be found in round 1 this year. Some guy in the later rounds will be better and be a total luck pick. Which will not be us as Whaley and the bills refuse to draft qbs.


Wow. Talk about missing the point!

This team doesn't have a franchise QB BECAUSE of dysfunction, not the other way around.

Whaley's mishandling of the QB situation has sent ripples through this organization that continues to set it back for years. And it will be many more years before this organization recovers from his malpractice.

Anyone with eyes and a brain can see how stupid it was to retain the idiot who made the mess and put him in charge of fixing it. He's incapable.

Pegula had the right idea, once. But Whaley was the reason Marrone bailed, causing Polian to bail. And the disgusting irony is that the ******* who created THAT mess AND the QB mess survives like a cockroach after a nuclear war.

This is the kind of thing that makes sportswriters' jobs easy. It writes itself.

[swiper]

Wow. Talk about missing the point!

This team doesn't have a franchise QB BECAUSE of dysfunction, not the other way around.

Whaley's mishandling of the QB situation has sent ripples through this organization that continues to set it back for years. And it will be many more years before this organization recovers from his malpractice.

Anyone with eyes and a brain can see how stupid it was to retain the idiot who made the mess and put him in charge of fixing it. He's incapable.

Pegula had the right idea, once. But Whaley was the reason Marrone bailed, causing Polian to bail. And the disgusting irony is that the ******* who created THAT mess AND the QB mess survives like a cockroach after a nuclear war.

This is the kind of thing that makes sportswriters' jobs easy. It writes itself.

I've been taking heat here for criticizing the Pegulas. I hear the whiny homers tell me "well he's only owned the team for two years." Whaley has only been here a short time. I'm not defending him, because I hate more than you do, but the same argument could be used with him and getting a franchise QB - but it's not. People will always hate Whaley and give blind love to the Pegulas. They are both lost. And the owner can feel dissed by people calling his teams dysfunctional - but they are. And it's his fault.

[WagonCircler]

I've been taking heat here for criticizing the Pegulas. I hear the whiny homers tell me "well he's only owned the team for two years." Whaley has only been here a short time. I'm not defending him, because I hate more than you do, but the same argument could be used with him and getting a franchise QB - but it's not. People will always hate Whaley and give blind love to the Pegulas. They are both lost. And the owner can feel dissed by people calling his teams dysfunctional - but they are. And it's his fault.

Oh, I agree that the Pegulas are just as lost as Whaley, and they show it by continuing to take his advice when anyone with a pair of eyes can see that he's completely incompetent. When a thing is this ****ty, there's plenty of blame to go around, but Doug and Russ are at the center of it. And Terry is just a naive newbie. Why the hell Whaley is getting more rope than Darcy did is baffling, and that's on Pegula.

[DesertFox24]

Wow. Talk about missing the point!

This team doesn't have a franchise QB BECAUSE of dysfunction, not the other way around.

Whaley's mishandling of the QB situation has sent ripples through this organization that continues to set it back for years. And it will be many more years before this organization recovers from his malpractice.

Anyone with eyes and a brain can see how stupid it was to retain the idiot who made the mess and put him in charge of fixing it. He's incapable.

Pegula had the right idea, once. But Whaley was the reason Marrone bailed, causing Polian to bail. And the disgusting irony is that the ******* who created THAT mess AND the QB mess survives like a cockroach after a nuclear war.

This is the kind of thing that makes sportswriters' jobs easy. It writes itself.

then criticize his incompetence for avoiding drafting qbs. Personnelly I think it because he is a giant P and does not want to be fired for missing. That is not the type of gm I want.

That At said that does not make the bills dysfunctional it makes them incompetent to adapt to a league where passing and scoring are what is needed and a league that makes it impossible to stop a good passing game.

I hope mcdermott or the pegulas grab Whaley by the P and force him to draft qbs early middle and late every year until they find one.

[DesertFox24]

Many successful organizations run same way as bills are they dysfunctional. Hey maybe they are dysfunctional maybe they are not but that is pure speculation is my point.

Media Ian should be hammering them on the facts of what they have done and their actions. Being a run heavy def oriented team is not going to win in the NFL with the current rules are written.

Bash them for that not your uninformed perception.

That At is my point.

[YardRat]

Drafting a 'franchise' QB is a lot rarer than some would like to believe. Let's be honest...how many teams (any?) have actually drafted more than two in their entire history?

[YardRat]

Also, if GM's were judged solely or even mostly on drafting a franchise QB teams would be firing/hiring them at a rate much higher than Cleveland and Buffalo change coaches.

[WagonCircler]

Drafting a 'franchise' QB is a lot rarer than some would like to believe. Let's be honest...how many teams (any?) have actually drafted more than two in their entire history?

Drafting a franchise QB is one thing. Stupidly throwing good money and picks after bad when it was clear as day that EJ Manuel's problems were not fixable is an entirely different matter.

Stubbornness and stupidity are a horrible combination, and Whaley is both, plus arrogance, personified.

Whaley refused to even try a backup plan to EJ. It wasn't until Marrone threatened to decapitate him that he went out and got Orton.

[swiper]

Drafting a 'franchise' QB is a lot rarer than some would like to believe. Let's be honest...how many teams (any?) have actually drafted more than two in their entire history?

I think everyone understands that. And we all see that teams with good QBs win. There's about ten real good QBs out there. A couple manageable guys. But even a Tannehill, Andy Dalton-type guy would be an upgrade to the Bills.

While all bets are off with where Whaley may go, I would think he'll get a guy that is a bit taller than Taylor.

[WagonCircler]

I think everyone understands that. And we all see that teams with good QBs win. There's about ten real good QBs out there. A couple manageable guys. But even a Tannehill, Andy Dalton-type guy would be an upgrade to the Bills.

While all bets are off with where Whaley may go, I would think he'll get a guy that is a bit taller than Taylor.


I think that all this talk of McDermott wanting more control was specifically about the QB. After listening to him and reading about him, he seems like a pretty sharp guy. Sharp enough to make it a condition of taking the job that Doug Whaley does not get to pick the QB.

[YardRat]

Drafting a franchise QB is one thing. Stupidly throwing good money and picks after bad when it was clear as day that EJ Manuel's problems were not fixable is an entirely different matter.

Stubbornness and stupidity are a horrible combination, and Whaley is both, plus arrogance, personified.

Whaley refused to even try a backup plan to EJ. It wasn't until Marrone threatened to decapitate him that he went out and got Orton.

Most GM's make stupid moves, none are immune. Of course, they are only 'stupid' if you don't win...if you win, they are 'brilliant'.

If we want to be factually correct, EJ wasn't 'the plan' to begin with, that's why he brought in Kolb, and subsequently several other vets. Whaley deserves criticism, don't get me wrong and I'm not trying to hold him unaccountable by any means, but he's probably made more moves to try and address the QB situation than most Buffalo GM's, and there are some made by others that were far more egregious and costly.

[swiper]

I think that all this talk of McDermott wanting more control was specifically about the QB. After listening to him and reading about him, he seems like a pretty sharp guy. Sharp enough to make it a condition of taking the job that Doug Whaley does not get to pick the QB.

Hope you're right man. That's a football man that can make a that decision. He wants to succeed, not tread water.

[Mace]

I don't think it even makes sense for blaming the media for reporting bad news, any more than I do giving them credit for reporting good news.

The reality is that news is news and good or not is in the eye of the beholder as it should be, that's why people have brains, to use them in interpreting things.

I've noticed that people don't want to think for themselves or look things up, though it's an age where it's easier than ever to research anything in depth from a wide variety of sources. They want prepackaged opinions they are happy with, and criticize the reporting of things that make them unhappy. Life and society just aren't engineered for oblivious happy, or people become the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil monkeys, lazy and apathetic, wanting someone to just agree with their opinions because it's more comfortable.

In the case of the Bills, the problems are pretty well defined by now after years of them. The organization fuels its' own dysfunction and the cycle of no QB by well, having no QB because of dysfunction.

I don't see any reason to be upset with the media stating the obvious.

[Mace]

Whaley deserves criticism, don't get me wrong and I'm not trying to hold him unaccountable by any means, but he's probably made more moves to try and address the QB situation than most Buffalo GM's, and there are some made by others that were far more egregious and costly.

Yeah but he's made more moves because his moves fail. It's like giving a bad plumber credit for trying to fix the problems he made being unable to fix the main problem.

[WagonCircler]

I'm not trying to hold him unaccountable by any means

Yeah, you kinda are.

He made horrible, failed moves. The kind that should get you fired.

[YardRat]

Yeah, you kinda are.

He made horrible, failed moves. The kind that should get you fired.

Should Polian have been fired for shipping out a starting running back, two first round picks, and a second round pick for a LBer? For drafting guys like James Williams and John Fina?

[Mace]

Should Polian have been fired for shipping out a starting running back, two first round picks, and a second round pick for a LBer? For drafting guys like James Williams and John Fina?

You have to admit 2 reliable starters out of 20 picks (P. Brown, Miller), can't include Watkins because he's hurt a lot, is not anywhere close to Polian level.

[DesertFox24]

I am not blaming the news. My point is this dysfunction talk becUse Whaley here and no czar is ridiculous. Give them a hard time for their philosophy and lack of trying to find a qb but to say we are dysfunctional because terry did not do what you wanted is stupid in my opinion.

[Strongman]

You have to admit 2 reliable starters out of 20 picks (P. Brown, Miller), can't include Watkins because he's hurt a lot, is not anywhere close to Polian level.

Thanks to the salary cap, draft picks are now much more valuable than they were in the Polian era

[kgun12]

Blah, Blah, Blah, the local media is just like the national media, they think they are smarter then we are, how did that work for the election? Sheep are sheep and the media are trophy sheep, and the folks that listen to the media sheep are world class trophy sheep, which are you?

[WagonCircler]

Should Polian have been fired for shipping out a starting running back, two first round picks, and a second round pick for a LBer? For drafting guys like James Williams and John Fina?

Are we really going to compare the balance sheets of Polian vs Whaley?

[WagonCircler]

Blah, Blah, Blah, the local media is just like the national media, they think they are smarter then we are, how did that work for the election? Sheep are sheep and the media are trophy sheep, and the folks that listen to the media sheep are world class trophy sheep, which are you?

No, sheep are people who just keeping eating the **** they're serving you, without ever questioning it. 17 years, no playoffs? Thank you Sir, may I have another?

[Mace]

My point is this dysfunction talk becUse Whaley here and no czar is ridiculous. Give them a hard time for their philosophy and lack of trying to find a qb but to say we are dysfunctional because terry did not do what you wanted is stupid in my opinion.

Yeah, but my point would be they're dysfunctional because of Whaley, no strong football voice (call it czar if you want), and their philosophy which leads to no QB. It's not because Terry didn't do what I wanted, it looks like common sense to me.

[Mace]

Blah, Blah, Blah, the local media is just like the national media, they think they are smarter then we are, how did that work for the election? Sheep are sheep and the media are trophy sheep, and the folks that listen to the media sheep are world class trophy sheep, which are you?

People are sheep who pay no attention to media. They're happy with other people making their decisions for them and have to wish to reason things out.

Makes you a sheep imho.

[YardRat]

Are we really going to compare the balance sheets of Polian vs Whaley?

Do you want to compare the two over a similar time frame? What QB did Polian draft for the Bills?

[Mace]

Do you want to compare the two over a similar time frame? What QB did Polian draft for the Bills?

Brian McClure.

But he drafted 10 contributors in his 1st 3 years. Thurman Thomas, Jeff Wright, Will Wolford, Shane Conlan, Nate Odomes, Leon Seals, Keith McKellar, Howard Ballard, Ronnie Harmon (no matter how it ended), and Mark Pike. Butch Rolle, Jamie Mueller and John Hagy arguably added their moments....in 3 years.

[DesertFox24]

Yeah, but my point would be they're dysfunctional because of Whaley, no strong football voice (call it czar if you want), and their philosophy which leads to no QB. It's not because Terry didn't do what I wanted, it looks like common sense to me.

I am not talking about Whaley being good or bad. One bad employee does not make a whole organization dysfunctional. What it does is make the owner incompetent or to loyal to recognize when a change is required. Dysfunction means something totally different in my book.

[Mace]

I am not talking about Whaley being good or bad. One bad employee does not make a whole organization dysfunctional. What it does is make the owner incompetent or to loyal to recognize when a change is required. Dysfunction means something totally different in my book.

Well, dysfunction is not functioning normally. Whaley had no clue about much of anything regarding Ryan in a sport where the GM has a clue about the coach and process. He said he had no input, though Pegula contradicted him, in a normal process of input. He claimed involvement in Ryan & Manuel then came back to say that was other people (Brandon & Pegulas). He claimed to be leading the coach search then said he was just providing candidates.

None of that is normal for a football GM, which makes it not functioning normally, which makes it dysfunctional imho. The media saying it is dysfunctional or functional, wouldn't change my mind thinking it is not normal, and accordingly dysfunctional.

Pegulas say the GM & Coach independently report to them, though Pegula admitted he did not know football so well as hockey when he bought the team, and they've said in hockey, coach reports to GM who reports to owners, which I'd call functional, imho.

In the NFL, the coach and GM reporting to the less knowledgeable owners (who could not have gained their experience in a profession in a couple years more than career professional) independently, is not considered normal, which leads back not dysfunctional.

I'm not real sure what your definition of dysfunctional is besides not functioning according to norms, but it meets mine pretty handily.

[DesertFox24]

well we will agree to disagree. I do not think the organization is dysfunctional I think the organizational philosophy is blatantly wrong and flawed.

That Said I will agree Whaley although some
decent picks and free agents selections has not shown the ability or the recognition that qb is vital and needs to be found any means necessary.

lastly, not hiring a czar because the jags did does not make us dysfunctional and that is my point. The media insteD of using fact like that Tim graham article is basing this opinion off of another poorly run organization whose owner is worse than ours and is a joke. Installing pools at football stadium because he wanted to get more people to come? He is as bad if not worse than pegulas and was involved with the rams before buying the jags

[WagonCircler]

Do you want to compare the two over a similar time frame? What QB did Polian draft for the Bills?

That's a bull**** question. He didn't have to draft one. But if you compare the players Polian drafted and acquired to those who Whaley drafted and acquired, it's laughable. And before he was GM, Polian was a scout here. Look at small school products like Andre Reed, Kutztown State, Don Beebe, Chadron State, Phil Hansen, North Dakota State, Jamie Mueller, Benedictine. I could go on. He found role players the way the Patriots organization does now. And when he decided to go balls out on a deal for a football factory player, that player turned out to be a flat out stud from Alabama.

Whaley crows about going into a draft with two players on the top of his board, winding up with both. Reggie Ragland and Shaq Lawson contributed ZERO this year and are damaged goods already. When Polian went into a draft in a similar situation, those two players turned out to be Bennett and Conlan.

When Polian gambled on an injured player, he turned out to be Hall of Famer Thurman Thomas. The Bills also drafted Bruce Smith while Polian was a member of the personnel department. Not a slam dunk at the time.

Polian went on to build teams that went to 8 conference championship games, including one in its second year of existence. That's ****ing mind boggling.

He is possibly the greatest GM of all time. He was NFL exec of the year 6 times.

Doug Whaley has accomplished exactly jack ****.

He has zero equity. Worthless.

[WagonCircler]

Brian McClure..

Brian was a friend of mine. Even he knew that he would probably never play a down for the Bills with Kelly and Reich ahead of him.

[swiper]

One bad employee certainly can make a whole organization dysfunctional. If it is a football GM who is bringing in lousy talent. But he is far from the only piece of dysfunction.

[YardRat]

Brian McClure.

But he drafted 10 contributors in his 1st 3 years. Thurman Thomas, Jeff Wright, Will Wolford, Shane Conlan, Nate Odomes, Leon Seals, Keith McKellar, Howard Ballard, Ronnie Harmon (no matter how it ended), and Mark Pike. Butch Rolle, Jamie Mueller and John Hagy arguably added their moments....in 3 years.

With twice as many picks, the draft was 12 rounds back then. McKellar, Wright, Ballard, and Hagy were 8th rounders or lower.

Look at the Thurman Thomas draft...in the first 7 rounds, other than TT a bunch of nobodies, and we all know TT was damaged goods going into the draft (kinda like Lawson this past season).

Polian hasn't done anything differently than somebody like Whaley has, and if these boards were around back then he would've gotten roasted for drafting an injured player (what the hell was he thinking?)...shipping a slew of draft picks off for a LBer when we already drafted one in the first round (Jesus Christ, he spent FOUR draft picks including THREE #1's on a couple of LBers?!?! Talk about 'doubling down'.

Polian has a larger sample size, a history, and winning to prop him up. That's the only difference, really. Polian took far more risks and was more aggressive the Whaley, but Bill had a longer tenure to judge him on at this point.

[Arm of Harm]

Most GM's make stupid moves, none are immune. Of course, they are only 'stupid' if you don't win...if you win, they are 'brilliant'.

If we want to be factually correct, EJ wasn't 'the plan' to begin with, that's why he brought in Kolb, and subsequently several other vets. Whaley deserves criticism, don't get me wrong and I'm not trying to hold him unaccountable by any means, but he's probably made more moves to try and address the QB situation than most Buffalo GM's, and there are some made by others that were far more egregious and costly.

EJ Manuel was the plan to begin with. He was the plan from day one. Doug Whaley's comments at the time revealed that he expected that those involved with the decision, including him, would be fired if Manuel didn't work out. Those aren't words which are said of a plan B or plan C type player.

You could point to the signing of Kolb. There are those who argue that Kolb was the tin can EJ was supposed to kick over on his way to the starting position. Personally, I think that Whaley was thinking, "Best case, Kolb is a tin can who gets kicked over by EJ. But EJ is raw and needs time to develop. Having Kolb on board will buy him some time, if time he needs." But Kolb was never intended to be any kind of long-term solution at QB. Obviously.

But the main flaw in Whaley's thinking was that the problems EJ showed in college--in terms of accuracy and information processing speed--could be overcome with experience. A word like "raw" implies that the solution is as simple as throwing him on the grill. The reality is that a college QB who displays inadequate accuracy and information processing speed almost never develops those traits as a pro. Manuel has not benefited from his development time, and was not better in the final game of the Bills' 2016 season than he'd been as a rookie. That lack of development is normal for someone who'd showed Manuel-type limitations as a college player.

The Manuel selection was a boneheaded move made by an incompetent front office. That lack of competence, and not sample size, is by far the biggest difference between Doug Whaley and Bill Polian.

[WagonCircler]

Polian has a larger sample size, a history, and winning to prop him up. That's the only difference, really.

Wow! You act like that's just a minor detail! Winning over a larger sample size is almost impossible! That's why Polian is in the Hall of Fame. He won everywhere he went, and won big. What metric do you use? His suits aren't as finely tailored as Whaley's?

And you act like it's only a matter of time before Whaley starts winning, as though it's a given. You're living in La La Land. Whaley is a no-account, no talent schmuck. He's never going to win anything.

[Mr. Pink]

well we will agree to disagree. I do not think the organization is dysfunctional I think the organizational philosophy is blatantly wrong and flawed.



I agree completely with this.

From a football standpoint we're stuck in 1977 and trying to succeed on the field with what worked back then. That doesn't make it dysfunctional, it makes it flawed and antiquated.

The business model though is sound and was sound before Pegula bought it or else he wouldn't have paid 1.whatever billion for the franchise.

Unfortunately, we should all full well realize by now this entity isn't run like a football team, it's run like a business. Profits first, winning second. It's been that way for almost 20 years now. There was a slight departure from that with the Donahoe years, it just didn't work.

[Mace]

I agree completely with this.

From a football standpoint we're stuck in 1977 and trying to succeed on the field with what worked back then. That doesn't make it dysfunctional, it makes it flawed and antiquated.

The business model though is sound and was sound before Pegula bought it or else he wouldn't have paid 1.whatever billion for the franchise.

Unfortunately, we should all full well realize by now this entity isn't run like a football team, it's run like a business. Profits first, winning second. It's been that way for almost 20 years now. There was a slight departure from that with the Donahoe years, it just didn't work.

Can't agree. In 1977 we had a coach who reported to a GM. In fact we always had the functional structure of coach reporting to gm until the Russ Brandon era. It went back to functional during Nix, then totally dysfunctional with Whaley not having a clue and out of the loop. I find it hard to believe any GM in the league wouldn't have any idea what was going on with the coach.

[Mace]

With twice as many picks, the draft was 12 rounds back then. McKellar, Wright, Ballard, and Hagy were 8th rounders or lower.

Look at the Thurman Thomas draft...in the first 7 rounds, other than TT a bunch of nobodies, and we all know TT was damaged goods going into the draft (kinda like Lawson this past season).

Polian hasn't done anything differently than somebody like Whaley has, and if these boards were around back then he would've gotten roasted for drafting an injured player (what the hell was he thinking?)...shipping a slew of draft picks off for a LBer when we already drafted one in the first round (Jesus Christ, he spent FOUR draft picks including THREE #1's on a couple of LBers?!?! Talk about 'doubling down'.

Polian has a larger sample size, a history, and winning to prop him up. That's the only difference, really. Polian took far more risks and was more aggressive the Whaley, but Bill had a longer tenure to judge him on at this point.

With less rounds then, Whaley could have beefed up his 2 for 20 with UDFA's ? Polian found more, and more dependable contributors.

In fact, he even found Mike Lodish, Glenn Parker, Marvcus Patton, Henry Jones, Mark Maddox, Phil Hansen, John Fina, Matt Darby and Kurt Schulz to contribute on a Super Bowl contender.

I really can't see how you can compare Whaley's 2 for 20 to that, because there were way more roster spots to be won on Whaley teams.

[YardRat]

I think the '2 for 20' is a little bit of a stretch.

2014- Watkins, KuJo, P.Brown and Henderson. Randall Johnson (now with NYJets) would probably still be here, as well as Russ Cockrell (still playing this weekend with Pittsburgh), if not for Wrecks.
2015- Darby, Miller and O'Leary. Dez Lewis. Tony Steward (Saints) may still be here also. Karlos Williams? Was a good pick until he got himself preggers. Still, Pittsburgh snagged him up.
2016-Lawson, Ragland, Washington, Jones, JWilliams, Listenbee and Seymour.

Really all three draft classes are a little early to grade (maybe not '14, three years is the benchmark, but looking at the picks as an entire group 20 of the 20 are on an NFL roster in some capacity (even Cyril who landed with the Bears).

That's not bad.

[YardRat]

5 of 21 Of Polian's picks his first three years in the first seven rounds never made it out of training camp, let alone stuck with the team (or any team) in any capacity.

[Mace]

I'll have to agree to disagree with anyone who thinks Whaley is in any way comparable with Polian here, because I just don't see it.

Yardie old son, you're touting guys you know need replacing, and guys who make no contribution but fill a roster spot, a good chunk of them damaged in one form or another. Mentioning guys on other teams isn't flattering to Whaley because he has control of the roster and he kept lots more that aren't doing anything but always waiting until next year.

Whaley is a good pro personnel guy, he's just a terrible GM imho, and I can't really understand any attempts to defend his drafts for their lack of contributions.

[ICRockets]

Mace is dead on with Whaley, IMO. Season after season, he finds veteran roster depth that exceeds expectations. Outside of that skill set, however, he leaves much to be desired.

[YardRat]

I'll have to agree to disagree with anyone who thinks Whaley is in any way comparable with Polian here, because I just don't see it.

Yardie old son, you're touting guys you know need replacing, and guys who make no contribution but fill a roster spot, a good chunk of them damaged in one form or another. Mentioning guys on other teams isn't flattering to Whaley because he has control of the roster and he kept lots more that aren't doing anything but always waiting until next year.

Whaley is a good pro personnel guy, he's just a terrible GM imho, and I can't really understand any attempts to defend his drafts for their lack of contributions.

Polian wasn't a great GM either...until the team started winning. Will the team ever win under Whaley's watchful eye? Don't know, but three years is a little early to pass final judgement, isn't it? Whaley could flame out and never win anything...he could also end up being the architect of multiple Super Bowl champions...despite his perceived current 'failings'.

Is comparing Whaley to Polian foolish? In some sense, yes...the same sense that compares Dak Prescott's and Derek Carr's careers to Peyton Manning's and Tom Brady's. Sure, it's a no-brainer now, because Manning and Brady have been around a lot longer and had the time to accomplish much more...Prescott and Carr are just getting started. "There is no comparison between Polian and Whaley"...of course not...one's already run his career from beginning to end, and the other is just getting started.

[WagonCircler]

Is comparing Whaley to Polian foolish? In some sense, yes...the same sense that compares Dak Prescott's and Derek Carr's careers to Peyton Manning's and Tom Brady's. Sure, it's a no-brainer now, because Manning and Brady have been around a lot longer and had the time to accomplish much more....

No, this is more like comparing EJ Manuel's career to Tom Brady's. It's the absolute zenith of stupidity. Whaley is one of hundreds of failed GMs who have never accomplished anything. Polian is arguably by himself, in a group of one. At the very least, he's one of the top 2 or 3 GMs of all time. Exactly one Head Coach was hired under Polian. That HC is in the Hall of Fame now. . Under Whaley's tenure here, coaches can't get out of here fast enough. The revolving door could power the building like a windmill.

Doug Whaley's teams have never even sniffed the playoffs. Bill Polian's was named GM in 1986. The Bills were in the AFC Chamionship game by the 1988 season.

If you're trying to make an ass of yourself, you're really crushing it.

[YardRat]

No, this is more like comparing EJ Manuel's career to Tom Brady's. It's the absolute zenith of stupidity.

Well, if you consider Whaley's first three years here a complete dumpster fire and want to believe Polian built a Super Bowl team in two years , I guess that's your prerogative.


Whaley is one of hundreds of failed GMs who have never accomplished anything. Polian is arguably by himself, in a group of one. At the very least, he's one of the top 2 or 3 GMs of all time. Exactly one Head Coach was hired under Polian. That HC is in the Hall of Fame now. . Under Whaley's tenure here, coaches can't get out of here fast enough. The revolving door could power the building like a windmill.


At the same point of their careers, Polian didn't accomplish much more. Of course, right now, Polian is a great GM...30 years, three teams, and a Super Bowl ring later. If you want to believe that Marrone leaving and Wrecks failing is all on Whaley, then again, that's your prerogative. Maybe Marrone walked because he didn't get along with Whaley...maybe not. One thing is pretty certain, however, Wrecks wasn't canned because of anything Whaley had done.

Doug Whaley's teams have never even sniffed the playoffs. Bill Polian's was named GM in 1986. The Bills were in the AFC Chamionship game by the 1988 season.


Maybe if Russ Branding had butted the **** out three years ago they would have.
Whaley's first three years have resulted in 24 wins...that's the most wins in any three year period for the team this century. He took over the reigns of a team that hadn't finished 8-8 or better in almost 10 years. The first 14 years of the 2000's the team finished .500 or better 3 times. They have done it twice in the last three years...despite having a moron for head coach #1 and a clueless OC, and twin morons for head coach #2 and his defensive specialist.

Is it the playoffs? No. Is it anything to crow about compared to making it to the conference championship after the third year? Not really. Is it better than we've seen since TMCM? Yeah, undoubtedly.

[swiper]

What porkchop said.

[WagonCircler]

Well, if you consider Whaley's first three years here a complete dumpster fire and want to believe Polian built a Super Bowl team in two years , I guess that's your prerogative..

These contentions are supported by the facts. So, yes, I believe them.

[Mace]

Polian wasn't a great GM either...until the team started winning. Will the team ever win under Whaley's watchful eye? Don't know, but three years is a little early to pass final judgement, isn't it? Whaley could flame out and never win anything...he could also end up being the architect of multiple Super Bowl champions...despite his perceived current 'failings'.

Is comparing Whaley to Polian foolish? In some sense, yes...the same sense that compares Dak Prescott's and Derek Carr's careers to Peyton Manning's and Tom Brady's. Sure, it's a no-brainer now, because Manning and Brady have been around a lot longer and had the time to accomplish much more...Prescott and Carr are just getting started. "There is no comparison between Polian and Whaley"...of course not...one's already run his career from beginning to end, and the other is just getting started.

Well, the team kept winning because he found guys that contributed, even if momentarily in the scope of NFL careers. Again, his picks were for a relatively established roster, where Whaley's roster had spots to be won. There's sort of a huge difference between "guy who stays on the roster and never does much" and "contributor".

Like I said, Whaley has done some decent pro personnel work, but his roster is full of injured guys and bodies waiting perpetually until next year, and I have to mention one more time, this is not a contender roster, but a roster needing contributions.

Whaley behaves like he's plugging gaps for depth with reaches instead of building a a team where he needs to only worry about plugging gaps with reaches, then fills on the holes with value vet minimum guys as if his roster was full of budding glory with only one more year to develop or get healthy and now it has been 3, on yet another coach who just has to be able to use his clever selections like they should be.

You see the same team I do, failing to meet the same needs or establish a rookie core of guys for value because they are on rookie contracts and can contribute out of the box.

Again, this isn't a contender's roster when you're reading this :

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2017/1/17/14299648/buffalo-bills-2016-rookie-class-gave-underwhelming-contributions-shaq-lawson-adolphus-washington

[SpikedLemonade]

Well
it is clear after reading Vic's new article that the buffalo media wanted Whaley gone and a football czar. Anything short means we will suck and the dysfunction at one bills drive will continue.

I disagree. This franchise will fail because we will not have a qb and they will trade valuable picks for a guy who is not good enough and buries us even further. This is not due to dysfunction thr franchise qb they want will not be found in round 1 this year. Some guy in the later rounds will be better and be a total luck pick. Which will not be us as Whaley and the bills refuse to draft qbs.

The media have it exactly right.

Of course, the Zombie Homers don't get it. They always think we are "a few bounces" away from making the play-offs.

So the Zombies do NOT want truth from the media. Just keep serving them the same identical crap sandwich Bills management has made fresh annually for 17 years.

What is in your head?

In your head?

Zombie

Zombie

Zombie



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ejga4kJUts

[swiper]

These contentions are supported by the facts. So, yes, I believe them.

Not arguing your point here, but Polian came in with GM experience and Whaley did not. Just thought that point should be added to your discussion.

[swiper]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2LE0KpcP05I?list=RD2LE0KpcP05I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Arm of Harm]

Well, if you consider Whaley's first three years here a complete dumpster fire and want to believe Polian built a Super Bowl team in two years , I guess that's your prerogative.



At the same point of their careers, Polian didn't accomplish much more. Of course, right now, Polian is a great GM...30 years, three teams, and a Super Bowl ring later. If you want to believe that Marrone leaving and Wrecks failing is all on Whaley, then again, that's your prerogative. Maybe Marrone walked because he didn't get along with Whaley...maybe not. One thing is pretty certain, however, Wrecks wasn't canned because of anything Whaley had done.


Maybe if Russ Branding had butted the **** out three years ago they would have.
Whaley's first three years have resulted in 24 wins...that's the most wins in any three year period for the team this century. He took over the reigns of a team that hadn't finished 8-8 or better in almost 10 years. The first 14 years of the 2000's the team finished .500 or better 3 times. They have done it twice in the last three years...despite having a moron for head coach #1 and a clueless OC, and twin morons for head coach #2 and his defensive specialist.

Is it the playoffs? No. Is it anything to crow about compared to making it to the conference championship after the third year? Not really. Is it better than we've seen since TMCM? Yeah, undoubtedly.


Let's compare Whaley to Marv's time as general manager. Marv's teams went 7-9; whereas Whaley's averaged 8-8. Not a huge difference there, especially when you consider that this year's win against Jacksonville was a gift from the officials, and this year's win against Cleveland was a gift from the schedule makers.

Back when Marv was GM, a number of people pointed out that a large number of players drafted by Marv were on the roster. They felt the roster had become younger and better under Marv than it had been under TD. (Even though Marv's record, 7-9, was not in itself something to write home about.) Most of those players had careers that fizzled rather quickly. Of Marv's acquisitions, only Kyle Williams made substantial contributions to the team over the long run. Just as the majority of the Whaley-drafted players you mentioned are unlikely to be making meaningful contributions over the long run either.

Marv said that when you build for the future you build for someone else's future. In other words, he'd openly admitted to being in "win now" mode, despite taking over a rebuilding team. Whaley has also been in "win now" mode. As a specific example, the best, most promising, most valuable player from the Bills' 2013 draft class was Kiko Alonzo. Whaley traded away Kiko for an aging running back. That running back was a very important part of the Bills' #1 rated rushing attack this past season. But how many years like that does McCoy have left in the tank? One? Two? Three at the very most? The McCoy trade was the type of move you make when you want to sell off a little bit of your future to maximize the present. Both GMs went into "win now" mode despite not having a quarterback.

At his peak Kyle Orton played at a surprisingly high level for the Bills. But other than that, the nearest approximation to a QB Whaley acquired was Tyrod Taylor. Taylor was Rex Ryan's idea. Without that, the Bills' starting QB for 2015 would have been decided by a competition between EJ Manuel and Matt Cassell. Rex Ryan's suggestion of signing Tyrod Taylor might well have saved Doug Whaley's job, even if it was not enough to save his own. Rex Ryan was absolutely fired in large part because of Doug Whaley. Granted, losing Ryan was no great loss. But Whaley is a coach killer GM who has oversold the owner on the level of talent he's supposedly acquired. Whaley hasn't found a QB, and is never going to find a QB. The Bills will not win a Super Bowl without a QB. Nor will they win a Super Bowl by replicating the Ravens of 2000.

[Arm of Harm]

No, this is more like comparing EJ Manuel's career to Tom Brady's. It's the absolute zenith of stupidity. Whaley is one of hundreds of failed GMs who have never accomplished anything. Polian is arguably by himself, in a group of one. At the very least, he's one of the top 2 or 3 GMs of all time. Exactly one Head Coach was hired under Polian. That HC is in the Hall of Fame now. . Under Whaley's tenure here, coaches can't get out of here fast enough. The revolving door could power the building like a windmill.

Doug Whaley's teams have never even sniffed the playoffs. Bill Polian's was named GM in 1986. The Bills were in the AFC Chamionship game by the 1988 season.

If you're trying to make an ass of yourself, you're really crushing it.

I agree with most of this, even if you make your case more aggressively than I would. However, I don't see Polian as a top-5 all time GM.

The single most important player during the Bills' Super Bowl years was Jim Kelly. Jim Kelly was drafted several years before Polian became GM. In Carolina Polian used a top-5 pick on Kerry Collins. Even after Collins came back from his alcoholism, he was merely an okay quarterback for the New York Giants. A bit of a step up from Trent Dilfer, perhaps, but not much of one. The one real quarterback Polian drafted was Peyton Manning, in a draft when everyone knew that Manning and Leaf would be the first two players drafted. In his book, Polian wrote that Leaf helped make that decision for him, by blowing off a scheduled interview with Indy. Also, I take into account the fact that a number of Polian's drafts in Indy came up dry. I've heard that his son, Chris Polian, was largely to blame for that. In the year Peyton Manning got hurt, the Colts went 2-14. That 2-14 record allowed them the first overall pick, which they used on Andrew Luck. Polian had been the GM for many years when that 2-14 record occurred. Whereas, when Tom Brady was out for a year with an injury, Matt Cassell led the Patriots to an 11-5 record or something.

One way to measure a GM's success is by the quantity of talent he's acquired. The Bill Polian Bills teams were good, with plenty of talent. No arguing that. But we were less talented than the Cowboys teams which handed us those Super Bowl losses. We were also less talented than the 49ers of the '80s or the Steelers of the '70s. In fact, I would argue that during the Bills' heyday in the early '90s, most of the teams in the NFC East were comparable to us in terms of talent.

Obviously, Polian was worlds better than Whaley. No one is arguing against that. (Well, except for YardRat. But he's wrong.) But if I was the owner of an expansion team, and had to pick a GM, I'd pick the guy who built the 49ers of the '80s or the Steelers of the '70s or the Cowboys of the '90s.

[Historian]

What QB did Polian draft for the Bills?

Frank Reich, 3A, 1985.

Now you can say that he was only a backup, but I think even casual fans understood his value to Kelly and the team. It was akin to Kemp/Lamonica in the 1960s.

Not to mention he drafted Superman out of Princeton in 1988.

I will say this though, while I believe Polian should be remembered with the Browns, and the Halases, he did have the a timliness of fate around him.

Terry Bledsoe's heart attack, led to his promotion. (as well as the fact that Ralph usually just promoted the next guy in line)

The USFL folded just in time to collect back up all the players the Bills had lost to the rival league, Hull, Drane, Kelly, Cribbs, et al.

Ralph's familiarity with Marv, from his preseason Bills broadcasts.

And so on and so forth.

All the stars aligned for him.

He did however pull off a few signings or trades that show his eye for talent. Everybody remembers the Bennett trade, but he also signed Tasker away from the Oilers, and traded popular WR Byron Franklin for Metzelaars.

Whaley is still early in his career, but for anyone to even try to compare him to Polian is just plain silly...although it would be a real kick in the nuts to cut him loose, and watch him build a contender elsewhere.

Oh, and BTW, the Thomas pick was Ralph's to make. Polian laid it all out for him and I believe Ralph's response was..."All of business is a risk." This has been well documented.

As for the press, personally, I appreciate someone who doesn't parlay the company line. This team has been a mess for a long time, and with all respect to Terry and Kim, while they have only been here for a couple seasons, this is what they bought into.

This organization needs to prove something to the community that financially supports it....not the other way around.

[Mace]

Frank Reich, 3A, 1985.

Keep in mind I'm on your side, but Reich was Terry Bledsoes' pick. He became ill slightly after.



Bledsoe became ill in 1985 and Bill Polian, the teams’s pro personnel director, was assigned to handle the contract negotiations with Smith, the No. 1 pick, and sign him for Buffalo and not the rival United States Football League. Polian succeeded.

In December of 1985, after a second 2-14 season, Bledsoe was fired by owner Ralph. C. Wilson Jr.. Polian, who was not a well-known member of the organization at the time, was appointed to succeed him.

http://buffalonews.com/2015/12/16/terry-bledsoe-dies-bills-gm-in-the-80s/

[YardRat]

Let's compare Whaley to Marv's time as general manager. Marv's teams went 7-9; whereas Whaley's averaged 8-8. Not a huge difference there, especially when you consider that this year's win against Jacksonville was a gift from the officials, and this year's win against Cleveland was a gift from the schedule makers.

You can go through anybody's schedule in any year and pick and choose a few games and try and contend 'Yeah, but that win/loss doesn't really count because (fill in the blank)'...even the Bills Super Bowl teams. You are what your record says you are with no ifs or buts.


Obviously, Polian was worlds better than Whaley. No one is arguing against that. (Well, except for YardRat. But he's wrong.) But if I was the owner of an expansion team, and had to pick a GM, I'd pick the guy who built the 49ers of the '80s or the Steelers of the '70s or the Cowboys of the '90s.

Of course, as the record stands right now, Polian is worlds better than Whaley. He's had literally decades of experience and accomplishments to support him. Whaley hasn't. Doesn't mean he will, either, but also doesn't mean he won't. That's kind of the point...Polian didn't build his career in his first three years in Buffalo, he started his path with us. Polian made similar mistakes as Whaley early on. That's the point. Wagon doesn't expect some of whaley's moves to pan out successfully. Hell, let's be honest...many didn't expect some of Polian's moves to pan out either. The difference is Polian was afforded the time to allow some of those moves to pan out and overshadow the ones that didn't.


Frank Reich, 3A, 1985.

Polian wasn't GM until '86...he was pro personnel before that.


Now you can say that he was only a backup, but I think even casual fans understood his value to Kelly and the team. It was akin to Kemp/Lamonica in the 1960s.


Only after he filled in for Kelly and won games. Prior to that I would contend most fans wanted him gone, upgraded, or didn't even know who the hell he was. If you remember, Reich didn't exactly light anything up in preseason games and looked horrid in his first start until the latter part of the fourth quarter.

Not to mention he drafted Superman out of Princeton in 1988.



Good pick, huh?



Whaley is still early in his career, but for anyone to even try to compare him to Polian is just plain silly...although it would be a real kick in the nuts to cut him loose, and watch him build a contender elsewhere.



Of course it's silly if one is comparing career achievements, like Wagon is. Polian has had a career...Whaley's is just getting started.

Will Whaley ever achieve what Polian has? Probably not...but it's too early to claim that his current record is proof that he won't. Will Whaley fail out as a GM and spend the rest of his football days as a middlin' executive kicking around pro personnel department's if he's lucky to even maintain that? Maybe...it's certainly a possibility. Agin, it's too early to definitively claim that also.

Polian has Franklin for Metzelaars. Whaley has Shephard for Hughes.
Polian has Brian McClure and Gale Gilbert. Whaley has Tyrod Taylor and Kyle Orton.
Polian has Biscuit. Whaley has Watkins.
Polian has Bob Williams, Ezekial Gadsen, Kirk Roach, Tim Borcky and Butch Wright (in his first three drafts only). Whaley has, well, nobody he drafted in the first seven rounds that never even made it to an NFL game except for Ragland and Listenbee and they are injured rookies.

Granted, Polian has Will Wolford, Thurman Thomas, Nate Odomes and several others. We'll just have to wait and see if Cordy Glenn, Sammy Watkins, and Ronald Darby (and several others) pan out as well.

[Mace]

You're shifting past his draft failures to encompass pro personnel work though. Whaley is a decent pro personnel guy but that's only part of the package. Good drafts even effectively lessen the need for pro FA's, which leads back to a glaring flaw. We wouldn't need those FA's if he replenished via the draft.

He drafted guard Richardson, tackles Henderson & Kouandjio, needed to hire Incognito & Mills. Drafted wee Gronkowski, needed rehire Felton, drafted Listenbee, needed Harvin, drafted J. Williams, needed Bush, etc....drafted Manuel, needed Orton, Taylor....there's more.....

Mentioning Whaley's picks have nearly all seen NFL action is sort of misdirection, they're largely no good and he won't let go of them.

[Mouldsie]

The problem with evaluating Whaley is he's never been fully in charge. His last two drafts were based around "get Rex what he wants" the draft before that it was Russ Brandon saying we need to trade up and make a splash for Sammy Watkins, the year before that it was EJ which he probably takes the most blame for but Marrone and Nix signed off on it too and Nix was technically the GM. He's also never picked the coach before this seasons ....and we don't know if he even picked this coach.

Dysfunctional is right.

[YardRat]

You're shifting past his draft failures to encompass pro personnel work though. Whaley is a decent pro personnel guy but that's only part of the package. Good drafts even effectively lessen the need for pro FA's, which leads back to a glaring flaw. We wouldn't need those FA's if he replenished via the draft.

He drafted guard Richardson, tackles Henderson & Kouandjio, needed to hire Incognito & Mills. Drafted wee Gronkowski, needed rehire Felton, drafted Listenbee, needed Harvin, drafted J. Williams, needed Bush, etc....drafted Manuel, needed Orton, Taylor....there's more.....

Mentioning Whaley's picks have nearly all seen NFL action is sort of misdirection, they're largely no good and he won't let go of them.
I'll get into this with more detail later when I have time, but Polian drafted Leonard Burton, needed Kent Hull...Wee Gronk was an UDFA signing...drafted Chris Burkett, needed Lofton...drafted Bob Williams, needed Metzelaars...drafted McClure, needed Gilbert...etc.

[mrbojanglezs]

Only thing worse than sports media is political media

[Mace]

I'll get into this with more detail later when I have time

I sure hope you will, because I have a pile of material waiting in the wings.