Whaley "Not a Quick Fix"

[OpIv37]

Less than two weeks after saying the team is "close":

http://buffalonews.com/2017/01/19/close-not-quick-fix-doug-whaleys-changing-outlook-team/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=puma#link_time=1484830952

Like I said before, this team has two choices: go for it with Tyrod or go full-on rebuild because we aren't going to find a better "win now" QB this off-season.

To me, this indicates that Tyrod is likely done and the playoff drought hits 20 because I don't see them fixing this mess in 3 years.

[k-oneputt]

Well that settles that. No season tickets for me this year. Maybe 2018. I will cherry pick the couple of games I go to.

[k-oneputt]

The bottom could fall out and go 4-12. If that's the case there is no sense of keeping Shady around at his age and contract.

[swiper]

LOL @ Whaley talking out of both sides of his mouth. He ought run for President. The way the country selects lately, he might do well.

[djjimkelly]

if a real tear down and build is happening im sort of happy.

lose alot next year draft a top 5 qb.

this is the only way WE are going to get a young good qb. the bills arent smart enough to hit on a mid to late rounder at qb

[OpIv37]

LOL @ Whaley talking out of both sides of his mouth. He ought run for President. The way the country selects lately, he might do well.

The scary part is that the "close" comment was before McDermott. The "not a quick fix"'was after.

Maybe the close comment was just trying not to scare off HC candidates. Maybe he's just trying to set the bar so low that mediocrity seems like success. Maybe this whole org is just a complete **** show.

Probably all 3.

- - - Updated - - -


if a real tear down and build is happening im sort of happy.

lose alot next year draft a top 5 qb.

this is the only way WE are going to get a young good qb. the bills arent smart enough to hit on a mid to late rounder at qb

But they're not lucky enough to get a true top 5 QB.

[WagonCircler]

There's not a word that comes out of this idiot's mouth that's not geared toward saving his own ass.

[EDS]

It is so hard to love this team.

[Bill Cody]

Guys there's no need to get upset, Peg has a secret plan, you don't need to know what it is

[OpIv37]

Guys there's no need to get upset, Peg has a secret plan, you don't need to know what it is
Let me guess: he's gonna get Bob Kraft drunk on absynthe and convince him to swap rosters and coaching staffs straight up.

[k-oneputt]

LOL

[sudzy]

Guys there's no need to get upset, Peg has a secret plan, you don't need to know what it is

Yes. Terry has been watching hours of film to learn about running a team. This weeks film includes "Draft Day", "The Replacements" and "The Little Giants"

[Bill Cody]

Let me guess: he's gonna get Bob Kraft drunk on absynthe and convince him to swap rosters and coaching staffs straight up.

don't be silly. Peg has GOT THIS. He's watching film, Russ is watching film, if they have input to offer they will, it's a collaborative effort and don't you worry THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. But don't ask any details because we don't want to let other teams know what we know. So relax.

[DraftBoy]

No **** sherlock.

[YardRat]

Personally I don't think the roster is that far off as it sits right now. Considering the cluster**** we've had to deal with the last two seasons on the coaching staff, if this group can win 8 and 7 games with that clown show some competence on the practice field, with gameplanning, and on the sideline on Sundays would probably buy us two or three more wins.

That being said, there are an inordinate amount of FA's this off season, and the big question at QB...I don't think they will be able to overcome those obstacles in one season, but we'll see how those issues are resolved over the next few months.

Finally, I'm willing to wager right now that the playoff-less streak doesn't hit 20.

[Skooby]

0-2 and the season ended, until it was 4-2 and then it ended again.

[Jeff1220]

Maybe Whaley just realized that there will be a mass exodus of FAs out of Buffalo this offseason.

[Mace]

There's not a word that comes out of this idiot's mouth that's not geared toward saving his own ass.

He learned to weasel from the best. Brandon.

[Mouldsie]

Start Cardale, get Rosen. Fixed.

[trapezeus]

50% of afc teams make the playoffs each year. We have not qualified once and now apparently are not close.

What kindnof stupidity is this??

[Night Train]

50% of afc teams make the playoffs each year. We have not qualified once and now apparently are not close.
What kindnof stupidity is this??

Whaleylytics

[OpIv37]

50% of afc teams make the playoffs each year. We have not qualified once and now apparently are not close.

What kindnof stupidity is this??
Uhhh 6 of 16 isn't half. I think you meant something other than "each year."

But you are correct on the stupidity.

[jamze132]

Gees Op, now you're even taking Whaley's words out of context...wonder where we've seen that recently. 樂

OBD is stupid to bust up our offense. They moved the ball and put up points at a playoff caliber. Our defense completely **** the bed which severely hindered any notion of making the playoffs for the first time in 17 years. No one allows three 200+ yard rushers and makes the playoffs. Not even Brady.

[SpikedLemonade]

Whaley needs to be replaced.

Hire an experienced NFL executive and let him fire Whaley and hire his own GM.

[swiper]

Personally I don't think the roster is that far off as it sits right now.

Really? It has no safety, RT, QB and a sad collection of WRs. The defense as a whole can't tackle. And Dareus plays hard when he feels like it.

The only sure thing on this roster is McCoy.

[Novacane]

I'm confused now! I though Whaley built a playoff roster and Wrecks ****ed it up?

[Arm of Harm]

50% of afc teams make the playoffs each year. We have not qualified once and now apparently are not close.

What kindnof stupidity is this??

There are 16 teams in the AFC. Of those 6 make the playoffs. That's a 37.5% chance each year. The chance of missing the playoffs for 17 consecutive years is 0.375^17, or 0.0000000573. That's a 0.00000573% chance, at least assuming all teams were run with equal levels of competence. Even with 6/16 AFC teams making the playoffs your point still stands.

Whaley is now asking the fans for patience, and to prepare for the long haul. Warning us that this will be "no quick fix." The Bills are a rebuilding team, and his comments are starting to reflect that. He is also right to say that the team needs long-term solutions. However, what he fails to mention is that those long-term solutions will not and cannot begin until after he's fired. This is like a construction project where the owner has hired the wrong contractor. Right now we're waiting on that wrong contractor to get fired, and hoping that his eventual replacement will be the right man for the job. It's a long process, and will almost certainly take us past year 20 of the drought.

[cookie G]

Like I said before, this team has two choices: go for it with Tyrod or go full-on rebuild because we aren't going to find a better "win now" QB this off-season.


If there is one single reason this team hasn't made the playoffs in 17 years, its been this continuous "let's rebuild" mentality.

And a large part of that problem has been....for some ungodly reason, that the "rebuild" seems to start with the defensive backfield...with RB being 2nd. Why? I've stopped asking. But hell...many of those clamoring for a rebuild are wanting to draft a safety with the first pick this year.

As far as "rebuilding" the offense...fine...do it.

But as a reminder...the offense people want to rebuild scored as many, or more points than 6 of the playoff teams this year. (they tied with Pittsburgh).

On the other hand, only one playoff team (Miami), allowed more points.

Why did this team miss the playoffs yet again? Because the coach they brought in 2 years ago thought it was important to "rebuild" the 4th ranked defense.

And it sucked.

As far as "tanking for a QB"....

someone started a thread about the 4 remaining playoff teams, and the QB's they have.

Well...none of those teams tanked for a QB.

one had some luck in getting theirs (NE)
one was willing to mortgage their future (Atl)
one was smart enough to recognize talent, even though they didn't have a need (GB)
and one had an owner who interjected and said, "I've always regretted passing on a prospect 21 years prior, I don't want to do that again" (Pit).

You can't keep tearing down a building and start from scratch because you think another model is shinier and better. You just waste a lot of material and labor, and never get around to the reason for the rebuild.

[YardRat]

Sal Whatever from the Rochester D&C has an interesting article regarding this, and claims the comment was indeed taken out of context. He believes the comment referred to the state of the culture of the organization, not the roster and possibility of making the playoffs..

[YardRat]

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/2017/01/20/salspeak-believe-not-m-defending-doug-whaley/96825326/

“I would say it’s going to start with the core values,” he said. “Instilling the core values in our players and in this building. And starting from the inside and working out. It’s not going to be a quick fix. He knows that, we know that. Anything that’s going to be sustainable for a long time, it’s hard to do.”

[Mace]

Personally I don't think the roster is that far off as it sits right now.

I just don't see that whatever. They have 24 temps (fa) heading into the offseason, injured or sub par talent in the pipeline (yes, always maybe's), need starting RT, need safeties, cb's, lb, dl depth, wr's, ol depth, qb, shady and kyle have wear and tear piling up on them, and they have comparatively little cap room on a roster paid at contender level which plays at 8-8 range.

Not that far off ? You yourself have said we're farther away than we were in terms of pieces than we were in 2014 when Schwartz was here. 2 more years of wear on the remaining vets from that team who aren't getting younger, but we're close ?

I sure don't see it.

[YardRat]

I just don't see that whatever. They have 24 temps (fa) heading into the offseason, injured or sub par talent in the pipeline (yes, always maybe's), need starting RT, need safeties, cb's, lb, dl depth, wr's, ol depth, qb, shady and kyle have wear and tear piling up on them, and they have comparatively little cap room on a roster paid at contender level which plays at 8-8 range.

Not that far off ? You yourself have said we're farther away than we were in terms of pieces than we were in 2014 when Schwartz was here. 2 more years of wear on the remaining vets from that team who aren't getting younger, but we're close ?

I sure don't see it.
Our roster is in worse shape than it was at this time 2 seasons ago, no argument there. I blame Wrecks, obviously.

That being said, two years ago we were one offensive lineman, an adequate QB and a real offensive coordinator away from making the playoffs IMO. ATM, we are a little farther away then that. We need safeties, bad. Need depth at corner...maybe a starter depending on Gilmore. Need depth at WR...maybe a starter depending on Woods. QB is a question. I don't think the lines are as bad off as others do.

Stick with Taylor, draft a QB, bring in a free agent and Jones. We can do with that for another year, and keep looking.
Shady, Gillie, and JWilliams...even if we need another RB's aren't hard to find.
Re-sign Woods, grab a 2nd-3rd tier WR FA. Draft a TE or sign a 2nd-3rd tier FA.
Draft a versatile olinemen...maybe pick up a 2nd-3rd tier FA.
Same for the dline, as the oline.
I'm not worried about LBer. Ragland comes back, and if their are any positives about Whaley that we should be able to agree on one is he knows how to mine the pro ranks for LBers.
Draft a safety...sign a FA.
Bring in a FA kicker, vet or rookie, to compete with Carpenter.
Fill in the blanks leftover with UDFA's or 3rd tier vets.
Biggest concern after safety is dearth of talent at corner, and even if we do let Gilmore walk a system that employs more zone will be easier to fill than if we were sticking with man press.

We've got seven picks and at least $30 mil in cap room, most likely more. IMO it won't take a miracle to fill the roster and compete for a playoff spot, just some guys that can play as a team, buy into the concept, and a little bit of effective coaching.

We're not going to get All Pros at every position, nobody has that, and it isn't necessary to win.

Hell, just look at all of the 'nobodies' on all four rosters that are going to be playing this weekend.

[swiper]

How can you blame Ryan for the roster changes?!?

[YardRat]

How can you blame Ryan?!?

Because we ended up jettisoning quite a few players that were starters/contributors in 2014 (Cockrell, Bradham, McKelvin, Rambo, Hogan, Chandler, Charles, FRED JACKSON, Marcus Thigpen) to make room for Jet-Stank like Salas, IK Enkempali, Harvin, Tate, Bush, Moore, etc.

Wiped out the old regime's depth guys and replaced them with cronies and shiny objects.

[Mace]

Our roster is in worse shape than it was at this time 2 seasons ago, no argument there. I blame Wrecks, obviously.

That being said, two years ago we were one offensive lineman, an adequate QB and a real offensive coordinator away from making the playoffs IMO. ATM, we are a little farther away then that. We need safeties, bad. Need depth at corner...maybe a starter depending on Gilmore. Need depth at WR...maybe a starter depending on Woods. QB is a question. I don't think the lines are as bad off as others do.

Stick with Taylor, draft a QB, bring in a free agent and Jones. We can do with that for another year, and keep looking.
Shady, Gillie, and JWilliams...even if we need another RB's aren't hard to find.
Re-sign Woods, grab a 2nd-3rd tier WR FA. Draft a TE or sign a 2nd-3rd tier FA.
Draft a versatile olinemen...maybe pick up a 2nd-3rd tier FA.
Same for the dline, as the oline.
I'm not worried about LBer. Ragland comes back, and if their are any positives about Whaley that we should be able to agree on one is he knows how to mine the pro ranks for LBers.
Draft a safety...sign a FA.
Bring in a FA kicker, vet or rookie, to compete with Carpenter.
Fill in the blanks leftover with UDFA's or 3rd tier vets.
Biggest concern after safety is dearth of talent at corner, and even if we do let Gilmore walk a system that employs more zone will be easier to fill than if we were sticking with man press.

We've got seven picks and at least $30 mil in cap room, most likely more. IMO it won't take a miracle to fill the roster and compete for a playoff spot, just some guys that can play as a team, buy into the concept, and a little bit of effective coaching.

We're not going to get All Pros at every position, nobody has that, and it isn't necessary to win.

Hell, just look at all of the 'nobodies' on all four rosters that are going to be playing this weekend.

That list is just "not far off".

Here's an article on their "bountiful" cap space :


In conclusion, with a rising cap and salaries not keeping up, cap dollars aren’t worth what they used to be. The Bills aren’t going to be able to lure free agents with the biggest offer as they have in the past. It would be wise to make themselves as attractive a landing spot as possible for free agents, if they hope to be able to fill the spots of departing players with suitable replacements.

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2017/1/18/14286896/bills-tyrod-taylor-cap-situation-2017

Have to point out, you're counting on Whaley to fill it. Also have to point out, he's good at finding vet minimum guys. But lots of them did nothing whatever. For every step Whaley temporarily takes forward, he takes 2 backwards.

So, that's "all" he has to do this year after 3 of stasis, and you're saying you think he can do it just like that, hmmmm ?

[trapezeus]

For some reason I thought 8 teams. Wasn't thinking obviously. Thanks for correction.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Let me guess: he's gonna get Bob Kraft drunk on absynthe and convince him to swap rosters and coaching staffs straight up.

Close, we are a snake bitten franchise, and history loves repeating itself. I could see Belichick trading his second string QB to us for our top two this year and first next. We get a qb who cannot stay healthy and we remain the division side show for the forseeable future while he stockpiles talent to continue tormenting the league until Brady is older than Blanda was when he retired.

- - - Updated - - -


Let me guess: he's gonna get Bob Kraft drunk on absynthe and convince him to swap rosters and coaching staffs straight up.

Close, we are a snake bitten franchise, and history loves repeating itself. I could see Belichick trading his second string QB to us for our top two this year and first next. We get a qb who cannot stay healthy and we remain the division side show for the forseeable future while he stockpiles talent to continue tormenting the league until Brady is older than Blanda was when he retired.

[swiper]

Because we ended up jettisoning quite a few players that were starters/contributors in 2014 (Cockrell, Bradham, McKelvin, Rambo, Hogan, Chandler, Charles, FRED JACKSON, Marcus Thigpen) to make room for Jet-Stank like Salas, IK Enkempali, Harvin, Tate, Bush, Moore, etc.

Wiped out the old regime's depth guys and replaced them with cronies and shiny objects.


None of those players were any good and needed to go. And those decisions weren't Ryan's they were Whaley's doing - each one. Bringing in the Jet stank I agree was Whaley being told by Pegula to appease Ryan.

Brandon Tate isn't Jet stank however and was a great pick-up.

[YardRat]

That list is just "not far off".

Here's an article on their "bountiful" cap space :



http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2017/1/18/14286896/bills-tyrod-taylor-cap-situation-2017

Have to point out, you're counting on Whaley to fill it. Also have to point out, he's good at finding vet minimum guys. But lots of them did nothing whatever. For every step Whaley temporarily takes forward, he takes 2 backwards.

So, that's "all" he has to do this year after 3 of stasis, and you're saying you think he can do it just like that, hmmmm ?

I know their cap space isn't bountiful, that's why I targeted 2nd-3rd tier free agents. Which Whaley and the pro dept have been pretty consistent in getting. Brown, Alexander, Groy, Hunter, Gillislee, etc from this past season.

- - - Updated - - -


None of those players were any good and needed to go. And those decisions weren't Ryan's they were Whaley's doing - each one. Bringing in the Jet stank I agree was Whaley being told by Pegula to appease Ryan.

Brandon Tate isn't Jet stank however and was a great pick-up.

IMO Thigpen was a better returner.

[DynaPaul]

There's no way we're in rebuilding mode. We have a solid roster that just needs good coaching and an upgrade here and there. If Whaley thinks that he's out of his mind and needs to be replaced.

[Mace]

I know their cap space isn't bountiful, that's why I targeted 2nd-3rd tier free agents. Which Whaley and the pro dept have been pretty consistent in getting. Brown, Alexander, Groy, Hunter, Gillislee, etc from this past season.

- - - Updated - - -



IMO Thigpen was a better returner.

Working on a complex 3 year possible bet (to 2020 or until Whaley gets fired, or either of us dies) with points for above .500, playoffs, rookie starters vs. fa's. and deductions for sub .500 (.500 being neutral ground), missing the playoffs, fa's vs. rookies, deductions for missing the playoffs, with winning points giving months of avatar choice to the winner, even willing to weight points (2 positive to 1 negative), to give you a chance to back up your Whaley lovins. You think ?

[YardRat]

I got confused at 'complex'. What would the bet be?

[Mace]

I got confused at 'complex'. What would the bet be?

Just avatar for months by winning point total.

Complex because I'm figuring Whaley. He's on his 3rd coach so you can be sure he should have a philosophy to supply players. It needs variables.

What I'm thinking atm, is you get :

+2 per draftee starting
+2 per playoff season
+3 per drafted QB starting
+2 for winning season

-1 per FA starting
-1 without playoffs per season
-2 for undrafted QB starting
-1 for losing season

Could be a seasonal weight of games or individual though it seems tedious. I'm thinking pro-football reference is fine as a source. In the interim, before 2020 or Whaley gets fired, we just add a tag to sig about the other appearing to know better.

What I'm aiming at, if you have any thoughts on simplifying, is a measure of Whaley. I didn't math out any previous seasons to see how it works though. I don't want it weighted in one direction or the other (honestly).

You can't go simple record, as GM depends to some extent on coaches, and you can't go purely in favor of picks on the roster because it isn't necessarily a measure of health or quality. Thoughts ? How can we measure Whaley ?

[sudzy]

Just avatar for months by winning point total.

Complex because I'm figuring Whaley. He's on his 3rd coach so you can be sure he should have a philosophy to supply players. It needs variables.

What I'm thinking atm, is you get :

+2 per draftee starting
+2 per playoff season
+3 per drafted QB starting
+2 for winning season

-1 per FA starting
-1 without playoffs per season
-2 for undrafted QB starting
-1 for losing season

Could be a seasonal weight of games or individual though it seems tedious. I'm thinking pro-football reference is fine as a source. In the interim, before 2020 or Whaley gets fired, we just add a tag to sig about the other appearing to know better.

What I'm aiming at, if you have any thoughts on simplifying, is a measure of Whaley. I didn't math out any previous seasons to see how it works though. I don't want it weighted in one direction or the other (honestly).

You can't go simple record, as GM depends to some extent on coaches, and you can't go purely in favor of picks on the roster because it isn't necessarily a measure of health or quality. Thoughts ? How can we measure Whaley ?

What constitutes draftee starting? You need a number of games. Did Seymour count for this year? Your point system seems more then fair. The Bills are going into the off season with just 33 players from last years team under contract. And that doesn't take into effect Tyrod might not be back (Whaley might force Jones into the starting line up) and Kyle might retire. Whaley could be mediocre and still win on points: with lots of draft choices starting by default.

[Mace]

What constitutes draftee starting? You need a number of games. Did Seymour count for this year? Your point system seems more then fair. The Bills are going into the off season with just 33 players from last years team under contract. And that doesn't take into effect Tyrod might not be back (Whaley might force Jones into the starting line up) and Kyle might retire. Whaley could be mediocre and still win on points: with lots of draft choices starting by default.

Well, this is all absolutely on point, but that's why I mentioned I was working on it and it was complex. I need to refine and streamline it. I'm not sure either, if Whaley (though I think he's terrible, he's good at pro personnel) should be getting a -1 for plugging a hole with an FA also (to be fair to both sides). It might be not even be workable, or might be too complex to provide any amusement. The points need to be weighted differently too.

Dunno, I'll keep playing with the idea and see if I can come up with something workable that won't require spreadsheets.

[YardRat]

I'm not liking the +3/-2 for QB's, or +2 draftee vs -1 free agent.

It's far too difficult to find a QB in the draft, and finding quality free agents is just as much a measure of job performance of a GM as drafting, especially considering the limited # of draft picks teams get. Not to mention somebody like Jerry Hughes would be a non-factor in the formula, and the Sheppard for Hughes trade is one of the bigger feathers in Whaley's cap at the moment.

[Mace]

I'm not liking the +3/-2 for QB's, or +2 draftee vs -1 free agent.

It's far too difficult to find a QB in the draft, and finding quality free agents is just as much a measure of job performance of a GM as drafting, especially considering the limited # of draft picks teams get. Not to mention somebody like Jerry Hughes would be a non-factor in the formula, and the Sheppard for Hughes trade is one of the bigger feathers in Whaley's cap at the moment.

As Sudzy mentioned also, I could easily get killed by proving my point. I'll keep playing with it, we have time, but you need to be accountable for your insufferable Whaley support !

[WagonCircler]

As Sudzy mentioned also, I could easily get killed by proving my point. I'll keep playing with it, we have time, but you need to be accountable for your insufferable Whaley support !

I'm pretty sure that YardRat is Doug Whaley's mother.

[Buckets]

"I would say it’s going to start with the core values," he said. "Instilling the core values in our players" - Whaley

What does this mean exactly, do we look for loosers when we draft?

[WagonCircler]

"I would say it’s going to start with the core values," he said. "Instilling the core values in our players" - Whaley

What does this mean exactly, do we look for loosers when we draft?

Whaley pays no mind the the character of players. He has zero use for nuance. He drafts brainless, undisciplined football factory rockheads who perform well at the combine.

[YardRat]

I'm pretty sure that YardRat is Doug Whaley's mother.

Well, no, but I'm pretty sure that I'm your daddy.

[Turf]

The more time passes and you start to see the body of Whaley's work, the more evident it becomes there's no short or long way to fix Whaley and his poor GM choices. Does he an eye for talent as a scout, yeah. But that's it, he is not GM material.

[Mouldsie]

Whaley pays no mind the the character of players. He has zero use for nuance. He drafts brainless, undisciplined football factory rockheads who perform well at the combine.

I wish that latter part were true....

[Turf]

Does Pegula realize what ineptness he has saddled himself with as Whaley as GM? I think they finally made some great coach choices. But as long as RainWhaley (Rhailey) is running the show, expect more head scratchers.

[HHURRICANE]

This will be Whaleys make it or break it draft.

And Lawson better be performing at a high level. Unfortunately Ragland is probably another season with that injury so he'll look about as effective as Lawson did this year.

[Arm of Harm]

Because we ended up jettisoning quite a few players that were starters/contributors in 2014 (Cockrell, Bradham, McKelvin, Rambo, Hogan, Chandler, Charles, FRED JACKSON, Marcus Thigpen) to make room for Jet-Stank like Salas, IK Enkempali, Harvin, Tate, Bush, Moore, etc.

Wiped out the old regime's depth guys and replaced them with cronies and shiny objects.

As general manager, Whaley had final say over any and all roster decisions. You could argue that Whaley also needed to work with the head coach, to give him what he wanted. That way if the owner asked Rex about Whaley, Rex's description of Whaley would, presumably, be mostly positive. (In sharp contrast to Whaley's description of Rex.)

But at the end of the day, Whaley had ultimate responsibility for roster moves. If he felt a player would play at a high level over a long period of time, he'd be a fool to cut that player just to make Rex happy.

Some of the players you mentioned are better than others. Marcus Thigpen, for example, is no longer in the league. (http://www.nfl.com/player/marcusthigpen/2507596/profile) Neither is Fred Jackson (http://www.nfl.com/player/fredjackson/2506871/profile). There are some other players whose contributions have been relatively modest. This past season Stefan Charles appeared in (http://www.nfl.com/player/stefancharles/2541925/profile) 12 games for the Seahawks, with zero starts. In those 12 games he's had 7 tackles and 5 assists. Replacing that one play per game shouldn't be an insurmountable challenge. Rambo appeared in (http://www.nfl.com/player/bacarrirambo/2539234/profile) nine games for the injury-plagued Dolphins this past season, including five starts.

McKelvin is one of the better players you mentioned. But he's going into his tenth season. Chandler was another good player, but he was released to make room for an even better player: Charles Clay. If Clay isn't putting up the numbers for which we'd hoped, it's because his QB isn't exactly known for quickly reading the field.

Cockrell was only in Buffalo a single season (2014) before being released. During that single season he had seven appearances, with zero starts. He is now a starting CB for the Pittsburgh Steelers. The decision to release him was head-scratching, to be sure. But I'm not sure how or why someone blames that decision on Rex Ryan instead of on the person who actually made it: Doug Whaley.

[SpikedLemonade]

Whaley needs to depart.

[Mace]

This will be Whaleys make it or break it draft.

And Lawson better be performing at a high level. Unfortunately Ragland is probably another season with that injury so he'll look about as effective as Lawson did this year.

Just imho, last year should have been. It was a very deep draft at core positions with multiple udfa's even starting games this season for decent teams, and we loaded up on guys who contributed nearly nothing.

[YardRat]

As general manager, Whaley had final say over any and all roster decisions. You could argue that Whaley also needed to work with the head coach, to give him what he wanted. That way if the owner asked Rex about Whaley, Rex's description of Whaley would, presumably, be mostly positive. (In sharp contrast to Whaley's description of Rex.)

But at the end of the day, Whaley had ultimate responsibility for roster moves. If he felt a player would play at a high level over a long period of time, he'd be a fool to cut that player just to make Rex happy.

Some of the players you mentioned are better than others. Marcus Thigpen, for example, is no longer in the league. (http://www.nfl.com/player/marcusthigpen/2507596/profile) Neither is Fred Jackson (http://www.nfl.com/player/fredjackson/2506871/profile). There are some other players whose contributions have been relatively modest. This past season Stefan Charles appeared in (http://www.nfl.com/player/stefancharles/2541925/profile) 12 games for the Seahawks, with zero starts. In those 12 games he's had 7 tackles and 5 assists. Replacing that one play per game shouldn't be an insurmountable challenge. Rambo appeared in (http://www.nfl.com/player/bacarrirambo/2539234/profile) nine games for the injury-plagued Dolphins this past season, including five starts.

McKelvin is one of the better players you mentioned. But he's going into his tenth season. Chandler was another good player, but he was released to make room for an even better player: Charles Clay. If Clay isn't putting up the numbers for which we'd hoped, it's because his QB isn't exactly known for quickly reading the field.

Cockrell was only in Buffalo a single season (2014) before being released. During that single season he had seven appearances, with zero starts. He is now a starting CB for the Pittsburgh Steelers. The decision to release him was head-scratching, to be sure. But I'm not sure how or why someone blames that decision on Rex Ryan instead of on the person who actually made it: Doug Whaley.
If you can look at the moves, any moves, over the last two seasons and not see Whaley 'having final say' per Wrecks' wishes than I can't help you.

Whaley went down the 'I control the roster, you coach them on Sundays' with Marrone, most notably with Mike Williams and Marrone...possibly even with Manuel and Marrone. That didn't work out so well. Whaley gave Wrecks enough rope with personnel to hang himself, and he did.

That's why Whaley is still here, and Wrecks isn't.

[Mace]

If you can look at the moves, any moves, over the last two seasons and not see Whaley 'having final say' per Wrecks' wishes than I can't help you.

Whaley went down the 'I control the roster, you coach them on Sundays' with Marrone, most notably with Mike Williams and Marrone...possibly even with Manuel and Marrone. That didn't work out so well. Whaley gave Wrecks enough rope with personnel to hang himself, and he did.

That's why Whaley is still here, and Wrecks isn't.

That basically means Whaley controlled the roster to let Ryan fail, which I don't really think is the purpose of a GM controlling a roster.

[YardRat]

I don't think a GM 'controlling the roster' is a very good business model to begin with. Of course, allowing a buffoon head coach to help control the roster isn't one either. One of my earliest and biggest criticisms of Whaley stemmed from his comment regarding his control of the roster, and it's the coach's job to coach them on Sundays. But I was OK with the roster the way it stood (for the most part...as I've said dozens of times we needed a QB and an olineman at the time) at the end of 2014 and in hindsight kind of feel like I wish Whaley would've kept up the practice instead of letting Wrecks boot serviceable players for his cronies and Jet Stank.

[Mace]

I don't think a GM 'controlling the roster' is a very good business model to begin with. Of course, allowing a buffoon head coach to help control the roster isn't one either. One of my earliest and biggest criticisms of Whaley stemmed from his comment regarding his control of the roster, and it's the coach's job to coach them on Sundays. But I was OK with the roster the way it stood (for the most part...as I've said dozens of times we needed a QB and an olineman at the time) at the end of 2014 and in hindsight kind of feel like I wish Whaley would've kept up the practice instead of letting Wrecks boot serviceable players for his cronies and Jet Stank.

I don't buy it. You're now saying Whaley purposely gave Ryan inadequate players so Ryan could hang himself when he supposedly knew better about players he didn't get because he figured he shouldn't, though he sort of has a responsibility as GM. You're also saying Whaley went from getting Whaley men the coaches couldn't use, to the coaches guys Whaley didn't approve of. That's a bendy GM concept of team building indicating Whaley himself either has no philosophy, or can't find one that works, still meaning he has no idea what he's trying to do besides cater to either his own ideas or a coaches at a given time without any flexible comprehension of adjustments, which would require a level of communication and adaption he doesn't possess.

That's a GM who doesn't know what he's doing.