If we had a Tom Brady or A. Luck, would we be a contender ?

[Skooby]

If the answer is yes, we need to move up to draft the best QB available. There's no reason to not shoot for the moon, Tyrod isn't going to help.

[SpikedLemonade]

We would make the play-offs but not be a top 5 team.

[The Jokeman]

If the answer is yes, we need to move up to draft the best QB available. There's no reason to not shoot for the moon, Tyrod isn't going to help.

All else being equal sure but the problem is sometimes they aren't. Case in point what if the Bills took Dan Marino instead of Jim Kelly in the 1983 draft, would they have won the Super Bowl. To me Marino was a better QB but because of that we would have ended up a better teams in the early 80s (assuming Marino didn't play in the USFL) and may have prevented us from acquiring some of the draft picks that turned out to be Bruce Smith etc.

That said as Luck is showing in Indy, just because you're a franchise QB doesn't mean it's good enough. Sure it makes the Colts a better team but a QB alone can't win in the NFL, it will and always be a team game.

[Dr. Lecter]

You assume that there is a QB of that level available in this draft.

[EDS]

With Brady, yes without question.

[Skooby]

You assume that there is a QB of that level available in this draft.
I know we don't have one and adding another safety or WR isn't going to help us throw the rock, so all things being equal we'd be better off shooting for the fences if we feel a franchise QB is there. Thinking there's no one who can help us is foolish, Dak Prescott made Dallas the #1 seed himself & there's some similarities with us.

6-10 ..... 9-7 is where we have stayed for too long, Sammy Watkins extra pick obligation killed us last year so it's time to make a move.

[OpIv37]

With Brady, yes without question.

Disagree. Brady would be mediocre without Bellicheck.

[justasportsfan]

Disagree. Brady would be mediocre without Bellicheck.

The greatest qb ever goes that much lower? I don't think so. He'd still be great but he might not be the greatest ever.

[justasportsfan]

With guys like Prescott and Russell Wilson, the bills can't afford to assume any class is a bad draft class. I know EJ was really from a bad draft class but for a team that hasn't made playoffs primarily due to bad qb'ing ,we need to keep drafting a couple every draft til' we find one.

[Thurmal]

Without a doubt; a great QB can mask so many deficiencies. Look at GB. Without Rodgers, that roster is markedly worse than Buffalo's, but the Bills are eliminated by late-November every year and the Packers make the NFC Championship Game.

[Kenny]

With Brady yes... only because the AFC East would be wide open.

With Luck probably not. Even he's not good enough to overcome that crappy defense. We dont have the luxury of playing in the softest division of football.

[Mouldsie]

THE DRAFT ISNT A DAMN LOTTERY TICKET

YOU MUST SCOUT AND IDENTIFY PLAYERS ON THEIR OWN MERITS.

I can't stand people who view the draft like a pure statistical gamble. That's how you get Buddy Nix saying "someone from this draft is going to be a franchise QB" in 2013... um no.

When you look at Tom Brady, Russel Wilson, and Dak Prescott without analysis you might also think finding gems like them is a chance thing. It isn't. Those players all had very unique strengths and accomplishments that translated well to the next level but were overlooked by scouts for various ******ed reasons. (Drew Henson, Height, and lack of name recognition)

All 3 were winners with insane intangibles, arm talent, great statistics (particularly advanced stats that break down performance by situation), carried their teams to overperform, were leaders, and were identified as sleeper candidates by the smarter folks in the room.

We assume all scouts and GM's are the smarter guys in the room, that's another problem for another day.

In this draft I am not sure I see that player, either as an obvious r1 guy or late pick. (Cardale does not fit the bill btw)

[OpIv37]

The greatest qb ever goes that much lower? I don't think so. He'd still be great but he might not be the greatest ever.

He was NOTHING before Bellicheck. He wasn't even a full time starter at Michigan and he was passed over 5x by the Pats and 6x by every other team.

Bellicheck, meanwhile, went 11-5 with Matt Cassell as a starter and 3-1 win nobodies during Brady's suspension. He's proven he can plug and play at any position, and while the sample size is small, he's proven he can do the same with QB.

Brady, meanwhile, has never had success without Bellicheck. In fairness, he hasn't had the opportunity since college. There is no way to know for certain but I suspect that Brady would be a journeyman at best if he had been drafted by literally any other team. Hell, if Bledsoe didn't get hurt we might not even remember his name.

[Mouldsie]

He was NOTHING before Bellicheck. He wasn't even a full time starter at Michigan and he was passed over 5x by the Pats and 6x by every other team.

Bellicheck, meanwhile, went 11-5 with Matt Cassell as a starter and 3-1 win nobodies during Brady's suspension. He's proven he can plug and play at any position, and while the sample size is small, he's proven he can do the same with QB.

Brady, meanwhile, has never had success without Bellicheck. In fairness, he hasn't had the opportunity since college. There is no way to know for certain but I suspect that Brady would be a journeyman at best if he had been drafted by literally any other team. Hell, if Bledsoe didn't get hurt we might not even remember his name.

Coaching is important, but you are understating how well Brady played in college when he was on the field and not being dicked around by a coaching staff trying to keep young star recruit Drew Henson happy.

[OpIv37]

Coaching is important, but you are understating how well Brady played in college when he was on the field and not being dicked around by a coaching staff trying to keep young star recruit Drew Henson happy.

Yup- he was so good that every team passed him over 6x in the draft.

[Dr. Lecter]

Yup- he was so good that every team passed him over 6x in the draft.

Why is that relevant?

Kurt Warner was undrafted. Rodgers was late first round. Ryan Leaf was second over all. Jemarcus Russell first overall.

James Harrison was undrafted. Marques Colston was drafted in the 7th round.

Drafting is not an exact science. If he was so disposable why have the Patriots kept him instead of trading him for a slew of picks and keeping Cassell or picking up Fitzpatrick level guys if Brady is only mediocre and would be boatloads cheaper?

[OpIv37]

Why is that relevant?

Kurt Warner was undrafted. Rodgers was late first round. Ryan Leaf was second over all. Jemarcus Russell first overall.

James Harrison was undrafted. Marques Colston was drafted in the 7th round.

Drafting is not an exact science. If he was so disposable why have the Patriots kept him instead of trading him for a slew of picks and keeping Cassell or picking up Fitzpatrick level guys if Brady is only mediocre and would be boatloads cheaper?

If he played well in college, as was claimed, he would have been drafted sooner.

And why would the Patriots care about money? They don't have cap problems and the amount of money they make keeping their bandwagon fan happy is worth far more than what they'd save by signing Fitz over Brady.

[Dr. Lecter]

If he played well in college, as was claimed, he would have been drafted sooner.

And why would the Patriots care about money? They don't have cap problems and the amount of money they make keeping their bandwagon fan happy is worth far more than what they'd save by signing Fitz over Brady.

but it's not just money

If they had traded him,say 7 years ago, how many picks could have they received? 3 1sts? 2 1st and other picks? Wouldn't that make them even better? And if he is equivalent to a mid level guy, wouldn't they be foolish not to dump him and get value way above his play?

[OpIv37]

but it's not just money

If they had traded him,say 7 years ago, how many picks could have they received? 3 1sts? 2 1st and other picks? Wouldn't that make them even better? And if he is equivalent to a mid level guy, wouldn't they be foolish not to dump him and get value way above his play?
Why would they risk a known commodity on draft picks when you yourself just said the draft is an inexact science?

[Dr. Lecter]

Why would they risk a known commodity on draft picks when you yourself just said the draft is an inexact science?

Because the known commodity is known to be very average and they can easily find his equivalent and acquire some picks that have various degrees of succeeding.


With no real loss.

[DraftBoy]

If he played well in college, as was claimed, he would have been drafted sooner.

Not necessarily. There have been guys who dominated college and never got drafted. Looking good in college is only part of the equation.

[OpIv37]

Because the known commodity is known to be very average and they can easily find his equivalent and acquire some picks that have various degrees of succeeding.


With no real loss.
You're a Bills fan. You know how hard it is to find even an average quarterback.

[Skooby]

Because the known commodity is known to be very average and they can easily find his equivalent and acquire some picks that have various degrees of succeeding.


With no real loss.
.....Why Tyrod needs to go.

[Joe Fo Sho]

To be considered 'a contender' we just have to be a top team in the AFC. With Brady as our starter, we automatically shoot to the top of the AFC. Who's better right now?

I put the AFC top 5 in this order with Brady on the Bills.

New England (with or without a duplicate Brady)
Pittsburgh
Buffalo
KC
Oakland


The premise of your thread is still wrong, though. Becoming a contender with Brady does not necessarily mean we need to move up in the draft to take a top QB. If we feel there's a franchise QB in this draft, we should be trying to get him regardless. If we feel the QBs this year are not special, then either let one fall to us and take him at 10 or wait until later in the draft to get one.

[Skooby]

This guy is making a case for Brady but a healthy Sammy Watkins (haha) ??

http://dal.247sports.com/Bolt/Tony-Romos-perfect-fit-is-with-Bills-rest-of-NFL-must-move-on-51284416

[OpIv37]

.....Why Tyrod needs to go.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if not him, then who? What other QB that we can legitimately get is equal or better in terms of being able to win now? The only possibility I'm aware of is Romo, and I hate that situation because a) he won't be cheap, and between his cap hit and Tyrod's dead space, it will hamper our ability to address other positions with so much cap tied up in QB, b) he's too fragile and won't make it through the season, c) he the ultimate choke artist, so even if he racks up some wins, we can expect him to let us down in a must-win game, d) even if we make it work with the cap, the injuries and the choking, he's got 2 years left, at best. It would be a stopgap, and a very expensive one.

And btw I'm not advocating for Tyrod. I'm simply pointing out that the QB we need isn't available, and if we don't stick with Tyrod, the only real alternative is full rebuilding mode.

[Mouldsie]

Why would they risk a known commodity on draft picks when you yourself just said the draft is an inexact science?

For the second part of that, have you ever met a scout who thinks his evaluations are wrong? Ever watched a draft where there wasn't positive talk about every pick?

[OpIv37]

This guy is making a case for Brady but a healthy Sammy Watkins (haha) ??

http://dal.247sports.com/Bolt/Tony-Romos-perfect-fit-is-with-Bills-rest-of-NFL-must-move-on-51284416


It sounds strange: Romo going from the glamorous Cowboys to the inelegant Bills, from the delightful warmth of Dallas to the bitter cold of Buffalo. It’s tough to imagine one of the NFL’s biggest stars packing up and suiting up for a team that hasn’t made the playoffs since the 1999 season, marking the league’s longest active postseason drought (14 seasons) — but it actually makes complete sense.

I can see why he became a writer. Clearly, math isn't his strong suit. But I should probably thank him for making our ineptitude slightly less daunting.

[Mouldsie]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if not him, then who? What other QB that we can legitimately get is equal or better in terms of being able to win now? The only possibility I'm aware of is Romo, and I hate that situation because a) he won't be cheap, and between his cap hit and Tyrod's dead space, it will hamper our ability to address other positions with so much cap tied up in QB, b) he's too fragile and won't make it through the season, c) he the ultimate choke artist, so even if he racks up some wins, we can expect him to let us down in a must-win game, d) even if we make it work with the cap, the injuries and the choking, he's got 2 years left, at best. It would be a stopgap, and a very expensive one.

And btw I'm not advocating for Tyrod. I'm simply pointing out that the QB we need isn't available, and if we don't stick with Tyrod, the only real alternative is full rebuilding mode.

Agree with this assessment 100%

[Mace]

THE DRAFT ISNT A DAMN LOTTERY TICKET

YOU MUST SCOUT AND IDENTIFY PLAYERS ON THEIR OWN MERITS.

I can't stand people who view the draft like a pure statistical gamble. That's how you get Buddy Nix saying "someone from this draft is going to be a franchise QB" in 2013... um no.

When you look at Tom Brady, Russel Wilson, and Dak Prescott without analysis you might also think finding gems like them is a chance thing. It isn't. Those players all had very unique strengths and accomplishments that translated well to the next level but were overlooked by scouts for various ******ed reasons. (Drew Henson, Height, and lack of name recognition)

All 3 were winners with insane intangibles, arm talent, great statistics (particularly advanced stats that break down performance by situation), carried their teams to overperform, were leaders, and were identified as sleeper candidates by the smarter folks in the room.

We assume all scouts and GM's are the smarter guys in the room, that's another problem for another day.

In this draft I am not sure I see that player, either as an obvious r1 guy or late pick. (Cardale does not fit the bill btw)

Wholeheartedly agree with this.

I'd add you need to find the right guy for your team and properly coach him to fit. Making Wilson a pure pocket passer would not have worked, Dallas adjusted to give Prescott his best shot, and NE when breaking in Brady was first run oriented before airing it out in following years.

They scouted and selected promising players, then coached them into their offenses, before being able to coach offenses and build teams around their talents and strengths.

Was reading somewhere, the only QB the Bills ever developed from rookie (who stuck) was Joe Ferguson. Even Kelly went to the USFL first and came here more experienced. If you really think about it, that's absolutely horrible for a franchise history as long as ours.

We never develop anyone.

[feldspar]

According to NFL Network's Mike Garafolo, the Chiefs are "likely to pass on Nick Foles' option for 2017."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000785994/article/kansas-city-chiefs-likely-will-pass-on-nick-foles-option

I can see the Bills going after him this year if they want to move on from Tyrod, right or wrong.

[Mace]

According to NFL Network's Mike Garafolo, the Chiefs are "likely to pass on Nick Foles' option for 2017."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000785994/article/kansas-city-chiefs-likely-will-pass-on-nick-foles-option

I can see the Bills going after him this year if they want to move on from Tyrod, right or wrong.

I think I wish we were just capable of developing our own QB's. I'm still kind of boggled that Ferguson was the only one we ever did. I mean why would you draft a Cardale you can't teach, and why this year would you get a Trubisky, Watson, Mahomes, Kizer, or even Kelly that won't be taught anything, hoping he'll magically light up the world on his own ? We hired a WR coach to be QB coach, makes you realize they're going old guy/castoff again.

[YardRat]

With Brady - only if we learn to cheat like the Patriots organization, otherwise no.
With Luck - dude can't even contend in the weakest division in football, so that's probably closer to hell no.

[YardRat]

BTW, the common thread with QB's like Brady, Wilson, Prescott et al is they work their asses off perfecting their craft and spending as much time in the film room, if not more, as they do on the practice field.

[Mouldsie]

If you even think about Foles then you should just quit and rebuild.

[feldspar]

If you even think about Foles then you should just quit and rebuild.

What are the options, though?

I think they bring in a guy like Foles to at least compete for the job if Tyrod gets dumped. Not ideal, but what else is there?

We're stuck between a rock and a hard place still...

There are people who would prefer to keep their jobs here. I don't see them tearing it down deliberately...

[The Jokeman]

If you even think about Foles then you should just quit and rebuild.

Care to share why? As according to http://www.footballdb.com/stats/qb-records.html he hasa better winning percentage than Tyrod and just a hunch but bet he also has better passing yards totals and TD passes than Tyrod but b at if all likely a lot less salary than Tyrod.

[justasportsfan]

Yup- he was so good that every team passed him over 6x in the draft.


He was NOTHING before Bellicheck. He wasn't even a full time starter at Michigan and he was passed over 5x by the Pats and 6x by every other team.

Bellicheck, meanwhile, went 11-5 with Matt Cassell as a starter and 3-1 win nobodies during Brady's suspension. He's proven he can plug and play at any position, and while the sample size is small, he's proven he can do the same with QB.

Brady, meanwhile, has never had success without Bellicheck. In fairness, he hasn't had the opportunity since college. There is no way to know for certain but I suspect that Brady would be a journeyman at best if he had been drafted by literally any other team. Hell, if Bledsoe didn't get hurt we might not even remember his name.

Uh BB didnt have success prior to Brady. Pats were stacked when Cassel was the Qb.

Who cares what he did in college? If it was all BB then why couldnt BB make Tebow who dominated in college stick? Mallett also had success in college.Or how bout his qb when he was with the browns?

Van Pelt broke Marinos records in college and Levy couldn't do anyrhing with him. College means nothing .Getting passed up in the draft means nothing. Ask Romo, prescott, Kurt Warner, etc.

Qbs make coaches too you know. BB isnt the one making the reads or making the throws on the field.

Rex Ryan beat BB without Brady earlier thia season. 16-0. Brady scored 41 pts in the 2nd game.

If it was all BB rhen you didnt watch the recent sb

[OpIv37]

Bellicheck was in CLEVELAND prior to Brady. It's the one franchise more ****ed up than we are.

[Mouldsie]

What are the options, though?

I think they bring in a guy like Foles to at least compete for the job if Tyrod gets dumped. Not ideal, but what else is there?

We're stuck between a rock and a hard place still...

There are people who would prefer to keep their jobs here. I don't see them tearing it down deliberately...

If you dump Tyrod bc he "cant win a SB" then why bother with anyone else who fits that bill?



Care to share why? As according to http://www.footballdb.com/stats/qb-records.html he hasa better winning percentage than Tyrod and just a hunch but bet he also has better passing yards totals and TD passes than Tyrod but b at if all likely a lot less salary than Tyrod.
Because I've watched him play football and he's not very good at it.

[Skooby]

If you dump Tyrod bc he "cant win a SB" then why bother with anyone else who fits that bill?



Because I've watched him play football and he's not very good at it.

Or get near a super bowl, which right now we aren't even close thanks our QB play (30th passing, really ??).

[SpikedLemonade]

This wishful thinking must stop!


Until we remove all of our management, this is NOT possible.

[Skooby]

This wishful thinking must stop!


Until we remove all of our management, this is NOT possible.

LOL, what ?

[SpikedLemonade]

LOL, what ?

ALL


You heard me nah?

[Skooby]

ALL


You heard me nah?
So they find gems throughout the team & retread people but there's no chance at finding a QB?

[SpikedLemonade]

So they find gems throughout the team & retread people but there's no chance at finding a QB?

NOT until the management is completely flushed including -- and this will hurt you personally -- your connections there.

[Skooby]

NOT until the management is completely flushed including -- and this will hurt you personally -- your connections there.

Finding a great QB is eluding multiple teams and management groups, it's not as easy as rinse and repeat.

[feldspar]

Bellicheck was in CLEVELAND prior to Brady. It's the one franchise more ****ed up than we are.

Belichick may have been in Cleveland, but the franchise he coached for is the BALTIMORE RAVENS franchise. The franchise that is in Cleveland NOW is ****ed up, but the franchise that Belichick coached for was not so ****ed up. The franchise that is NOW in Cleveland is an expansion team founded in 1999... That is NOT the team Belichick coached for whatsoever.

We've been over this before, but apparently you don't get it still. It's very simple. Just pretend that Belichick coached in Baltimore, because THAT is the franchise he coached for. Start with that concept, and you're halfway home.

Would you call the Baltimore franchise ****ed up? Remember it's the same one that Belichick coached for, only in a different city.

[feldspar]

If you dump Tyrod bc he "cant win a SB" then why bother with anyone else who fits that bill?



Simple.

Because there will be less money involved with a guy like Foles, with a much more manageable contract. Not so much of a commitment. It's those very issues that will cause the Bills to dump Tyrod in the first place, if that happens...too much money, and too much of a commitment.

Like it or not, those would be the reasons.

[Mouldsie]

Finding a great QB is eluding multiple teams and management groups, it's not as easy as rinse and repeat.

Oh but it is; identify and obtain.

Right now my radar would be up for next year's class.

- - - Updated - - -


Simple.

Because there will be less money involved with a guy like Foles, with a much more manageable contract. Not so much of a commitment. It's those very issues that will cause the Bills to dump Tyrod in the first place, if that happens...too much money, and too much of a commitment.

Like it or not, those would be the reasons.
Yay 6-10!!

[feldspar]

Yay 6-10!!

Yeah, well what can you do?

[Skooby]

Oh but it is; identify and obtain.

Right now my radar would be up for next year's class.

- - - Updated - - -


Yay 6-10!!

Play Cardale this upcoming season, then we will draft very high.

[Historian]

Yeah, well what can you do?

Throw the invoice in the trash, like I did.