There is a lot of QB stupidity going on around here.

[OpIv37]

First, let's talk numbers. Tyrod makes $15.9 million, but it's $10 million in dead cap if we cut him. So, we met less than $6 million. Even if we find a journeyman that we can put on a backloaded contract and get his salary to $2 million, that's only an additional $4 million against the cap. It helps but it's not enough to make or break the off-season.

Second, the options available are terrible and expensive. Romo is a choke artist who can't stay healthy, and only has a year or two left in him anyway (he'll be 37 when camp starts). Cutler is a head case and a locker rom cancer who hasn't been to the playoffs in 8 years. I'm appalled that anyone would suggest him.

Oh, and Romo's cap hit is $24.7 million and Cutler's is $16 million. Granted, I'm sure they'd find some way to get that down if they were to go after either one of those guys, but it's ludicrous to think that one of those guys minus several million in cap is better than Taylor with more cap to fix the other holes. Don't confuse "better" with "good enough to win."

Finally, I've heard people suggest that Cardale start. The guy simply isn't ready and he'll get shell-shocked. It's really just a terrible idea to start him at this point. I wouldn't mind seeing them work him in during certain situations, but it's unfair to him and the team to put that much pressure on someone with so little experience.

I'm not particularly keen on the idea of keeping Taylor but so far, all the options people are touting instead are worse.

[Thurmal]

Picking up a guy like Nick Foles, drafting a QB within the first 3-4 rounds, and grooming him while Foles starts is a decent option, I think. I even think somebody like Hoyer would put up better numbers than Taylor with their run game. For far less money.

[OpIv37]

Picking up a guy like Nick Foles, drafting a QB within the first 3-4 rounds, and grooming him while Foles starts is a decent option, I think. I even think somebody like Hoyer would put up better numbers than Taylor with their run game. For far less money.
Not great options but better than the other suggestions floating around here. Just remember that cutting Taylor means $10 million in dead cap so the cap savings isn't going to be significant by going in that direction.

**** Whaley for that stupid contract.

[Ed]

First, let's talk numbers. Tyrod makes $15.9 million, but it's $10 million in dead cap if we cut him. So, we met less than $6 million. Even if we find a journeyman that we can put on a backloaded contract and get his salary to $2 million, that's only an additional $4 million against the cap. It helps but it's not enough to make or break the off-season.

Second, the options available are terrible and expensive. Romo is a choke artist who can't stay healthy, and only has a year or two left in him anyway (he'll be 37 when camp starts). Cutler is a head case and a locker rom cancer who hasn't been to the playoffs in 8 years. I'm appalled that anyone would suggest him.

Oh, and Romo's cap hit is $24.7 million and Cutler's is $16 million. Granted, I'm sure they'd find some way to get that down if they were to go after either one of those guys, but it's ludicrous to think that one of those guys minus several million in cap is better than Taylor with more cap to fix the other holes. Don't confuse "better" with "good enough to win."

Finally, I've heard people suggest that Cardale start. The guy simply isn't ready and he'll get shell-shocked. It's really just a terrible idea to start him at this point. I wouldn't mind seeing them work him in during certain situations, but it's unfair to him and the team to put that much pressure on someone with so little experience.

I'm not particularly keen on the idea of keeping Taylor but so far, all the options people are touting instead are worse.
I don't know where you're getting that $10 mil dead cap number from, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. If the Bills cut Taylor before March his dead cap is $2.85 mil since that's the only remaining bonus money that was paid and prorated prior to picking up the option. I agree with everything else though. I'd like to see Taylor come back. If they do cut him I would like to see Cardale start. Not because I think he's the answer, but I'd rather the team just bottom out and have a chance at the top qb in 2018.

[Albany,n.y.]

There is not a $10 million cap hit if we cut him next month. I have no idea where that came from since the team never paid Tyrod anything close to that & dead cap space money is $ previously paid or guaranteed $, not future non-guaranteed money if he's cut.

The Bills should use their 1st rounder on a QB. Personally, I'd take that pick & use it on the most NFL ready young QB available for that pick. My choice is make NE an offer they can't refuse for Jimmy Garoppolo that includes pick #10 and an additional pick. He's less of a gamble than any of the QBs the team can get at pick 10 and if for some reason he bombs, we can use next year's pick on a QB. It's not like they've never blown a 1st rounder before. Taking a shot with a guy who looked like the real deal against real NFL teams is the best use of our #1 pick. It's only paranoia & conspiracy thinking that keeps fans from seeing the best shot at using a #1 pick on a QB this year isn't a rookie but a guy who was good enough to be picked in the 2nd round out of college and has been developed for 3 years under the best coaching staff in the NFL and played well as a starter before a freak injury on what some would call a dirty play.

[Thurmal]

The Bills should use their 1st rounder on a QB. Personally, I'd take that pick & use it on the most NFL ready young QB available for that pick. My choice is make NE an offer they can't refuse for Jimmy Garoppolo that includes pick #10 and an additional pick. He's less of a gamble than any of the QBs the team can get at pick 10 and if for some reason he bombs, we can use next year's pick on a QB. It's not like they've never blown a 1st rounder before. Taking a shot with a guy who looked like the real deal against real NFL teams is the best use of our #1 pick. It's only paranoia & conspiracy thinking that keeps fans from seeing the best shot at using a #1 pick on a QB this year isn't a rookie but a guy who was good enough to be picked in the 2nd round out of college and has been developed for 3 years under the best coaching staff in the NFL and played well as a starter before a freak injury on what some would call a dirty play.
Here's my issue with Garoppolo...the Pats starting QB is 40 and could fall off the cliff, so to speak, at any moment. Remember, Peyton went from having the greatest season ever to garbage in like 18 months. If Garoppolo was any good, Belichick would NEVER trade him, especially in the division.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I don't know where you're getting that $10 mil dead cap number from, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. If the Bills cut Taylor before March his dead cap is $2.85 mil since that's the only remaining bonus money that was paid and prorated prior to picking up the option.

This is what I've heard, too. It makes cutting ties with Tyrod make even more sense.



Is there any truth to the rumor that the Redskins are looking to shop Cousins? He's the only QB that would make a significant impact for us. I'd be all for trading for him and paying him.

[justasportsfan]

I don't know where you're getting that $10 mil dead cap number from, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. If the Bills cut Taylor before March his dead cap is $2.85 mil since that's the only remaining bonus money that was paid and prorated prior to picking up the option. I agree with everything else though. I'd like to see Taylor come back. If they do cut him I would like to see Cardale start. Not because I think he's the answer, but I'd rather the team just bottom out and have a chance at the top qb in 2018.


There is not a $10 million cap hit if we cut him next month. I have no idea where that came from since the team never paid Tyrod anything close to that & dead cap space money is $ previously paid or guaranteed $, not future non-guaranteed money if he's cut.




This is what I've heard, too. It makes cutting ties with Tyrod make even more sense.




There is a lot of QB stupidity going on around here.

Oooops?

[OpIv37]

I stand corrected on the $10 million cap hit. I swear I read it somewhere but I just looked around and I can't find anything stating that number.

However, if they keep him this year, his 2018 dead cap hit becomes $18 million if cut, so it's basically a two year commitment. What a ****ty contract.

And I stand by my comments that throwing money at Romo or Cutler is stupid.

[Albany,n.y.]

Here's my issue with Garoppolo...the Pats starting QB is 40 and could fall off the cliff, so to speak, at any moment. Remember, Peyton went from having the greatest season ever to garbage in like 18 months. If Garoppolo was any good, Belichick would NEVER trade him, especially in the division.

Because of the salary cap & free agency, he HAS TO trade him this year, or he risks getting NOTHING for him in a year from now. To keep him when they can get a #1 pick now, in case Brady falls off the face of the earth & then have to pay him franchise $ is not smart football management. They already spent a #3 on Brissett in preparation of trading Garoppolo this year.
You don't have to guess that he's not any good-he already played the 1st two games in 2016 and he looked damn good.
You talk like Belichick is some 40 year old guy with a 25 year coaching life ahead of him-he's in his mid 60s & if he can take our #1 & get another Super Bowl ring next year, he's not going to worry about the long term affects of trading Garoppolo in the division.

[Thurmal]

You don't have to guess that he's not any good-he already played the 1st two games in 2016 and he looked damn good.
Every QB looks good for NE under Belichick. Brisset beat the Texans, a playoff team, 27-0. Matt Cassel, who was too crappy for even the Bills, went 11-5.

[bdutton]

Picking up a guy like Nick Foles, drafting a QB within the first 3-4 rounds, and grooming him while Foles starts is a decent option, I think. I even think somebody like Hoyer would put up better numbers than Taylor with their run game. For far less money.

Career stats for Tyrod are better in terms of completion percentage, interception ratio and QB Rating. We drafted a QB in round 3 last season. Why so eager to give up on him?

[Joe Fo Sho]

I stand corrected on the $10 million cap hit. I swear I read it somewhere but I just looked around and I can't find anything stating that number.

However, if they keep him this year, his 2018 dead cap hit becomes $18 million if cut, so it's basically a two year commitment. What a ****ty contract.

And I stand by my comments that throwing money at Romo or Cutler is stupid.

Does that extra $7 million in cap savings change your opinion that we should keep Tyrod?

[OpIv37]

Does that extra $7 million in cap savings change your opinion that we should keep Tyrod?

I actually think that the 18.5 mill in dead cap is a bigger factor. We literally can't cut him next year so it's a two year commitment.

I really don't like any of the options though. They all wreak of desperation.

[Bill Cody]

I actually think that the 18.5 mill in dead cap is a bigger factor. We literally can't cut him next year so it's a two year commitment.

I really don't like any of the options though. They all wreak of desperation.

The 18.5m in dead cap for next year is exactly why he has to be cut now.

Let's not conflate two different issues.

Issue one is if Tie Rod isn't the guy to bring us to the promised land (spoiler alert: he isn't) then when is the best time to cut him? Obvious answer: now, cap hit is minor (so that part of your original post is crap)

Issue two is: who plays QB if Tie Rod is cut? Answer for me: don't care, just keep drafting QB's until we find THE GUY.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I actually think that the 18.5 mill in dead cap is a bigger factor. We literally can't cut him next year so it's a two year commitment.

This is exactly why we should cut him loose now and take the $3 million hit. I'd be fine with keeping Tyrod if he renegotiated his awful contract to something more reasonable.


I really don't like any of the options though. They all wreak of desperation.

Probably because we're so desperate.

[TacklingDummy]

I stand corrected on the $10 million cap hit. I swear I read it somewhere but I just looked around and I can't find anything stating that number.

However, if they keep him this year, his 2018 dead cap hit becomes $18 million if cut, so it's basically a two year commitment. What a ****ty contract.

And I stand by my comments that throwing money at Romo or Cutler is stupid.

Paying Tyrod $16 million is also stupid. The NFL is a business. Why pay $16 million when you can pay 2 million and get the same win/loss records.

[Kenny]

I just dont get what the plan is if we cut TT. Have a look at the cap hits by team: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/quarterback/

TT @ $15.9mm isnt really that bad (he's the 20th highest paid QB by cap). So we cut him, what's the plan? Our running game will likely regress (even though he's not a great passer, he can throw deep, and more importantly, defenders had to worry about TT scrambling and running for yards).
- We trade draft picks for Garoppolo? Well, it worked well for a few games when we did this with Bledsoe (not to mention all the success Cassel and Alex Smith have had after leaving NE).
- Start 12 gauge? He's not ready
- Use our first rounder on Mahommes, Watson, Kizer, etc...? Our team isnt good enough to carry a QB. So you better believe he's the next Luck, Newton, Ryan, etc...
- Go after a FA like Hoyer, Schaub, Glennon? I dont see how any of these guys are upgrades from TT. Sure they come cheaper, but does that extra few million in cap space saved really help?

Keep TT and fix the real holes: Secondary, Linebacker, WR, RT, etc...

[Yasgur's Farm]

I don't know where you're getting that $10 mil dead cap number from, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. If the Bills cut Taylor before March his dead cap is $2.85 mil since that's the only remaining bonus money that was paid and prorated prior to picking up the option. I agree with everything else though. I'd like to see Taylor come back. If they do cut him I would like to see Cardale start. Not because I think he's the answer, but I'd rather the team just bottom out and have a chance at the top qb in 2018.
Deadcap is $2.75M if released before to the deadline. In addition, the following is guaranteed to him if he's retained beyond the deadline...
$15.5M bonus
$12M 2017 salary
$3.25M of his $13M 2018 salary

So...
Release prior to deadline and absorb $2.75M dead cap
Release prior to 2018 season and absorb $16.15M dead cap ($12.9 prorated bonus + $3.25 guaranteed salary)
Release prior to 2019 season and absorb $10.33M dead cap
Release prior to 2020 season and absorb $7.75M dead cap
Release prior to 2021 season and absorb $5.17M dead cap
Release prior to 2022 season and absorb $2.58M dead cap

I don't think that's a wise commitment by the Bills.

[Ed]

Deadcap is $2.75M if released before to the deadline. In addition, the following is guaranteed to him if he's retained beyond the deadline...
$15.5M bonus
$12M 2017 salary
$3.25M of his $13M 2018 salary

So...
Release prior to deadline and absorb $2.75M dead cap
Release prior to 2018 season and absorb $16.15M dead cap ($12.9 prorated bonus + $3.25 guaranteed salary)
Release prior to 2019 season and absorb $10.33M dead cap
Release prior to 2020 season and absorb $7.75M dead cap
Release prior to 2021 season and absorb $5.17M dead cap
Release prior to 2022 season and absorb $2.58M dead cap

I don't think that's a wise commitment by the Bills.
I don't know that these numbers are even that relevant anymore. It sounds like the Bills are only considering bringing Taylor back if they can agree on a restructured deal that's more favorable to the Bills.

[Yasgur's Farm]

They're 100℅ relevant... It's what current reality is... And the deadline is approaching rapidly. It's reported that TT is not receptive to a new deal.

[Mace]

The whole QB situation is dismal, damned if you do, damned if you don't, and it's system related.

This offseason I've read that the only relatively successful starter the Bills ever developed on their own from a rookie was Joe Ferguson (Kelly had his USFL exp). The ONLY. Yeesh.

I just read somewhere today, the only QB trades that resulted in a championship in the relatively modern era were Favre to GB, and Young to SF. Pretty rare.

We have a 23 year WR coach as a QB coach and his assistant was also a WR coach. That's not conducive to developing a rookie.

FA options are older brittle guys or underachievers from even better passing systems.

Realistically, it looks dismal. Tyrod is least worse. Doesn't make me feel great, but does anyone really think they could bottom out successfully even if they try to ? Or if they do, that they could actually successfully rebuild for years ?

I'm almost figuring it doesn't matter what they do, it won't work out "right" no matter what your version of "right" is.

[The Jokeman]

Picking up a guy like Nick Foles, drafting a QB within the first 3-4 rounds, and grooming him while Foles starts is a decent option, I think. I even think somebody like Hoyer would put up better numbers than Taylor with their run game. For far less money.

This is my ideal plan and you mentioned the two veteran QBs I'd target in free agency.

[YardRat]

Since 2000, Kurt Warner (twice, once each with Rams and Cardinals), Trent Dilfer, Kerry Collins, Brad Johnson, Rich Gannon, Matt Hasselbeck, Drew Brees, and Peyton Manning have led their team to the Super Bowl after being acquired, and I believe they were all free agents.

[OpIv37]

In the end, this is just another example of this FO's mismanagement. They put themselves in a situation where there is no good option, and the only thing to do is figure out which option is least bad.

[YardRat]

In the end, this is just another example of this FO's mismanagement. They put themselves in a situation where there is no good option, and the only thing to do is figure out which option is least bad.

Management had three options last off-season...1)Sign Tyrod to a long term big money extension (like Fitz...IMO bad idea...ironically, the same option they basically have this year), 2)Let Taylor walk for nothing in return, get a scruff FA to start or EJ (ewwww...bad idea...ironically, the same option they have this year, substitute Jones for EJ), and 3)Sign Taylor to a deal that rewards him if he succeeds but allows the team to cut him if he doesn't with very little financial and cap ramifications (only doable again if Taylor is willing to re-negotiate). Essentially, the 'stupid' contract did nothing except keep Taylor around and give him another season to prove he is worth a long term commitment and the organization is in the same boat this off season as it was last. Signing Taylor to a 'prove it' contract was the best option of the three at the time.

[OpIv37]

Management had three options last off-season...1)Sign Tyrod to a long term big money extension (like Fitz...IMO bad idea...ironically, the same option they basically have this year), 2)Let Taylor walk for nothing in return, get a scruff FA to start or EJ (ewwww...bad idea...ironically, the same option they have this year, substitute Jones for EJ), and 3)Sign Taylor to a deal that rewards him if he succeeds but allows the team to cut him if he doesn't with very little financial and cap ramifications (only doable again if Taylor is willing to re-negotiate). Essentially, the 'stupid' contract did nothing except keep Taylor around and give him another season to prove he is worth a long term commitment and the organization is in the same boat this off season as it was last. Signing Taylor to a 'prove it' contract was the best option of the three at the time.


They already had Tyrod signed last off-season. The only option should have been to let him play out the season, and pay him if he did well and let him walk if he didn't. Instead, they repeated the Fitz mistake and paid him too early because they gambled that he would do well and they would save money over what they would have had to pay him after a productive year. Well, they lost the gamble and here we are.

And FYI, this isn't hindsight. There's a whole thread of me getting trashed for not liking the contract from back when it was first signed. Turns out I was right.

[Mace]

Since 2000, Kurt Warner (twice, once each with Rams and Cardinals), Trent Dilfer, Kerry Collins, Brad Johnson, Rich Gannon, Matt Hasselbeck, Drew Brees, and Peyton Manning have led their team to the Super Bowl after being acquired, and I believe they were all free agents.

They were indeed all FA's, but I'm not sure who you see that's comparable to them in FA this year. The only relatively healthy one is Cousins, and he's going to be a big commitment if he even hits the market. The Bills don't have a dominant defense which helped a bunch of those (Gannon, Dilfer, Johnson), and the crop doesn't have the same pre-fa chops as Brees, Hasselbeck, Manning, Collins. Warner was kind of the rare bird. I don't even see a Dilfer, Johnson or Gannon out there.

It's hoping a blind shot in the dark will work out, when you can do the same with the draft. Blind shots in the dark have not treated this franchise well.

[Mouldsie]

Tank

[YardRat]

They already had Tyrod signed last off-season. The only option should have been to let him play out the season, and pay him if he did well and let him walk if he didn't. Instead, they repeated the Fitz mistake and paid him too early because they gambled that he would do well and they would save money over what they would have had to pay him after a productive year. Well, they lost the gamble and here we are.

And FYI, this isn't hindsight. There's a whole thread of me getting trashed for not liking the contract from back when it was first signed. Turns out I was right.
My bad, I had forgotten Tyrod's original deal was for more than one season.

[YardRat]

They were indeed all FA's, but I'm not sure who you see that's comparable to them in FA this year. The only relatively healthy one is Cousins, and he's going to be a big commitment if he even hits the market. The Bills don't have a dominant defense which helped a bunch of those (Gannon, Dilfer, Johnson), and the crop doesn't have the same pre-fa chops as Brees, Hasselbeck, Manning, Collins. Warner was kind of the rare bird. I don't even see a Dilfer, Johnson or Gannon out there.

It's hoping a blind shot in the dark will work out, when you can do the same with the draft. Blind shots in the dark have not treated this franchise well.

I think Foles and Cutler would be the closest to be comparable to a Dilfer or Hasselbeck, but I also don't see any of them and think 'Hey, this guy could lead us to the big game'.

[Skooby]

I stand corrected on the $10 million cap hit. I swear I read it somewhere but I just looked around and I can't find anything stating that number.

However, if they keep him this year, his 2018 dead cap hit becomes $18 million if cut, so it's basically a two year commitment. What a ****ty contract.

And I stand by my comments that throwing money at Romo or Cutler is stupid.
/ thread. We aren't paying Tyrod squat and we sat him the last game to spare him from a major injury so we could cut him.

[X-Era]

First, let's talk numbers. Tyrod makes $15.9 million, but it's $10 million in dead cap if we cut him. So, we met less than $6 million. Even if we find a journeyman that we can put on a backloaded contract and get his salary to $2 million, that's only an additional $4 million against the cap. It helps but it's not enough to make or break the off-season.

Second, the options available are terrible and expensive. Romo is a choke artist who can't stay healthy, and only has a year or two left in him anyway (he'll be 37 when camp starts). Cutler is a head case and a locker rom cancer who hasn't been to the playoffs in 8 years. I'm appalled that anyone would suggest him.

Oh, and Romo's cap hit is $24.7 million and Cutler's is $16 million. Granted, I'm sure they'd find some way to get that down if they were to go after either one of those guys, but it's ludicrous to think that one of those guys minus several million in cap is better than Taylor with more cap to fix the other holes. Don't confuse "better" with "good enough to win."

Finally, I've heard people suggest that Cardale start. The guy simply isn't ready and he'll get shell-shocked. It's really just a terrible idea to start him at this point. I wouldn't mind seeing them work him in during certain situations, but it's unfair to him and the team to put that much pressure on someone with so little experience.

I'm not particularly keen on the idea of keeping Taylor but so far, all the options people are touting instead are worse.Couldn't agree more. The best option this year is Tyrod.

1. His 20th ranked cap hit is reasonable for a seasoned starter
2. The scheme may change the dynamic of his play
3. He's a known quantity. There isn't any guarantee that a journeyman won't cost more and end up playing worse
4. The draft is weak at the top this year but there are several intriguing guys on days 2 and 3. No reason not to add another draftee to the mix to compete
5. Dennison knows him and his play

All that said, I can see the Bills moving on. All new staff, all new schemes, and new head coaches usually like there guy. Furthermore, I have a feeling Whaley isn't as high on him. Just a gut.

[X-Era]

They already had Tyrod signed last off-season. The only option should have been to let him play out the season, and pay him if he did well and let him walk if he didn't. Instead, they repeated the Fitz mistake and paid him too early because they gambled that he would do well and they would save money over what they would have had to pay him after a productive year. Well, they lost the gamble and here we are.

And FYI, this isn't hindsight. There's a whole thread of me getting trashed for not liking the contract from back when it was first signed. Turns out I was right.
Wait. The contract was a good contract or we wouldn't be able to pick up his option at all. How do we know Tyrod wouldn't simply hit the market to see what he could get paid? Personally I think Tyrod would be paid more by another team right now. Instead we locked him up to us, at the 20th ranked cap hit next year at QB, and are sitting here with the choice to keep him or walk.

The contract gave us a choice. No contract would have given HIM the choice. And he absolutely isn't worth the franchise tag.

[Albany,n.y.]

The whole QB situation is dismal, damned if you do, damned if you don't, and it's system related.

This offseason I've read that the only relatively successful starter the Bills ever developed on their own from a rookie was Joe Ferguson (Kelly had his USFL exp). The ONLY. Yeesh.

I just read somewhere today, the only QB trades that resulted in a championship in the relatively modern era were Favre to GB, and Young to SF. Pretty rare.

We have a 23 year WR coach as a QB coach and his assistant was also a WR coach. That's not conducive to developing a rookie.

FA options are older brittle guys or underachievers from even better passing systems.

Realistically, it looks dismal. Tyrod is least worse. Doesn't make me feel great, but does anyone really think they could bottom out successfully even if they try to ? Or if they do, that they could actually successfully rebuild for years ?

I'm almost figuring it doesn't matter what they do, it won't work out "right" no matter what your version of "right" is.

You forgot Lamonica, who the Bills developed & then traded away. They also developed the best backup QB in team history, Frank Reich, whose best years were wasted backing up a HOF QB.
QBs who won SBs with teams other than the ones who drafted them include: Dawson, Plunkett, Williams, Warner (undrafted, cut by GB as a rookie), Brees, P. Manning and 2 #1 picks traded before the start of their careers after being drafted by a team they never played for-Elway & E. Manning.

[Bill Cody]

In the end, this is just another example of this FO's mismanagement. They put themselves in a situation where there is no good option, and the only thing to do is figure out which option is least bad.

Ok so I'm still not clear where you stand on this now that you know the cap hit is 3m not 10. Saying there's not good option is obvious, no news there. But a 3m cap hit isn't bad. Struggling to find the point of this thread.

[justasportsfan]

Wait. The contract was a good contract or we wouldn't be able to pick up his option at all. How do we know Tyrod wouldn't simply hit the market to see what he could get paid? Personally I think Tyrod would be paid more by another team right now. Instead we locked him up to us, at the 20th ranked cap hit next year at QB, and are sitting here with the choice to keep him or walk.

The contract gave us a choice. No contract would have given HIM the choice. And he absolutely isn't worth the franchise tag.
It was a good option if Tyrod showed us how good or bad he really was. The worse situation to happen with that option happened. He was somewhere in the middle . Not good enough to get what he will get if we take the option and yet he's not bad enough that we can simply drop him and find an easy replacement.

[Kenny]

It was a good option if Tyrod showed us how good or bad he really was. The worse situation to happen with that option happened. He was somewhere in the middle . Not good enough to get what he will get if we take the option and yet he's not bad enough that we can simply drop him and find an easy replacement.

True... but at least we're not Washington. Now that's a true damned if you do / damned if you dont situation.

[OpIv37]

Ok so I'm still not clear where you stand on this now that you know the cap hit is 3m not 10. Saying there's not good option is obvious, no news there. But a 3m cap hit isn't bad. Struggling to find the point of this thread.

Well the point is that people are making some really bad suggestions regarding how to handle the QB situation. If someone doesn't like Tyrod, fine, but suggesting Cutler, Romo or Cardale is just plain stupid.

And I think the best thing to do now would be cut Taylor and go with someone like Foles. I don't think Foles is better but Taylor has an $18.5 million dead cap figure next season, so we'd be stuck with him in '18 even if he completely blows this coming season.

[Bill Cody]

Well the point is that people are making some really bad suggestions regarding how to handle the QB situation. If someone doesn't like Tyrod, fine, but suggesting Cutler, Romo or Cardale is just plain stupid.

And I think the best thing to do now would be cut Taylor and go with someone like Foles. I don't think Foles is better but Taylor has an $18.5 million dead cap figure next season, so we'd be stuck with him in '18 even if he completely blows this coming season.

ok so you've changed your mind, you agree he should be cut. Be careful about scolding people about stupidity when you're now admitting you didn't know the facts yourself.

[tomz]

Kelly had a few years of 'development' in Buffalo before he really started to get it. If I recall, his first year they were something like 4-12. And he was throwing tons of interceptions etc.

[Mace]

You forgot Lamonica, who the Bills developed & then traded away. They also developed the best backup QB in team history, Frank Reich, whose best years were wasted backing up a HOF QB.
QBs who won SBs with teams other than the ones who drafted them include: Dawson, Plunkett, Williams, Warner (undrafted, cut by GB as a rookie), Brees, P. Manning and 2 #1 picks traded before the start of their careers after being drafted by a team they never played for-Elway & E. Manning.

Ok, the only successful starting QB the Bills developed for themselves from a rookie, who lasted more than a couple seasons, who started more than 4 games for them was Ferguson. That still stands out ridiculously in 57 seasons of franchise history. Developing a good backup means nothing. It's a simple irrefutable statement that the franchise has been incapable of finding and developing QB's from rookies through 57 seasons, some 17 head coaches and some 12 GM's.

The rest of your post just repeats what other people said in regard to relatively recent. The FA & trade QB's were listed before with the modern era particularly identified, well, as the "modern" era, not guys more than 27 years ago when the game was different.

[Night Train]

Kelly had a few years of 'development' in Buffalo before he really started to get it. If I recall, his first year they were something like 4-12. And he was throwing tons of interceptions etc.

Even in his good years, he threw INT's...but at least we tried to throw the ball !

[Mace]

Kelly had a few years of 'development' in Buffalo before he really started to get it. If I recall, his first year they were something like 4-12. And he was throwing tons of interceptions etc.

Still didn't come here as a genuine rookie.

[tomz]

Fair. But his formative training was with marchibroda. And yes, we weren't afraid to chuck it. I too cringe watching Tyrod and the preceding ball-patters. They'll never get it without a few mistakes.

[Mace]

Fair. But his formative training was with marchibroda. And yes, we weren't afraid to chuck it. I too cringe watching Tyrod and the preceding ball-patters. They'll never get it without a few mistakes.

Can't agree. His formative training was probably in his first 1,154 pro pass attempts in Mouse Davis' run and shoot for the Houston Gamblers, then he spent a year before the Bills hired Marchibroda as QB coach. So before Marchibroda met Kelly, Kelly already had 1,015 completions in 1,634 attempts for 105 TD's and 62 Int's as a pro QB.

First two years with Marchibroda (as QB coach), Kelly only had 34 td's to 28 int's. Kelly ignited when Marchibroda became OC in 1989 and came up with the K-Gun to build around him.

I wouldn't say we developed Kelly, and he still wasn't a rookie with 1,154 pro pass attempts for 83 td's and 45 int's in a run and shoot offense when he came here, which still leads back to Ferguson being the only QB the franchise has ever developed for itself from a rookie through successful starting career.

[stuckincincy]

Ok, the only successful starting QB the Bills developed for themselves from a rookie, who lasted more than a couple seasons, who started more than 4 games for them was Ferguson. That still stands out ridiculously in 57 seasons of franchise history. Developing a good backup means nothing. It's a simple irrefutable statement that the franchise has been incapable of finding and developing QB's from rookies through 57 seasons, some 17 head coaches and some 12 GM's.



I note that James Harris, who had 103 attempts in his last season with BUF, went to the Rams where he got them to the playoffs 3 consecutive years. Sigh...

[jamze132]

First, let's talk numbers. Tyrod makes $15.9 million, but it's $10 million in dead cap if we cut him. So, we met less than $6 million. Even if we find a journeyman that we can put on a backloaded contract and get his salary to $2 million, that's only an additional $4 million against the cap. It helps but it's not enough to make or break the off-season.

Second, the options available are terrible and expensive. Romo is a choke artist who can't stay healthy, and only has a year or two left in him anyway (he'll be 37 when camp starts). Cutler is a head case and a locker rom cancer who hasn't been to the playoffs in 8 years. I'm appalled that anyone would suggest him.

Oh, and Romo's cap hit is $24.7 million and Cutler's is $16 million. Granted, I'm sure they'd find some way to get that down if they were to go after either one of those guys, but it's ludicrous to think that one of those guys minus several million in cap is better than Taylor with more cap to fix the other holes. Don't confuse "better" with "good enough to win."

Finally, I've heard people suggest that Cardale start. The guy simply isn't ready and he'll get shell-shocked. It's really just a terrible idea to start him at this point. I wouldn't mind seeing them work him in during certain situations, but it's unfair to him and the team to put that much pressure on someone with so little experience.

I'm not particularly keen on the idea of keeping Taylor but so far, all the options people are touting instead are worse.

Couldn't agree more. Tyrod put up major points last year. Look at our points made per season and you'll find one season by Flutie where we put up more points than Tyrod did last year.

[tomz]

Thanks for clarifying!

[Joe Fo Sho]

Couldn't agree more. Tyrod put up major points last year. Look at our points made per season and you'll find one season by Flutie where we put up more points than Tyrod did last year.

Imagine how many points this team could have had if they weren't being hindered by the 30th ranked passing attack in the NFL that averaged a whopping 1.1 TD/game. It's almost as if our 32 non-passing TDs played a significant role in how many points our team scored this year.

[Thurmal]

Imagine how many points this team could have had if they weren't being hindered by the 30th ranked passing attack in the NFL that averaged a whopping 1.1 TD/game. It's almost as if our 32 non-passing TDs played a significant role in how many points our team scored this year.
I can't go over how many people here overlook that. Unless Taylor was routinely going to the locker room and changing into a #25 MCCOY jersey, he doesn't deserve very much credit at all for the offensive production.

[justasportsfan]

Simply put, under Tyrod we didn't have a passing game that opened up the run.

On the flip side, having the a great run game means nothing to the passing game when you have a qb who is an average passer at best who cannot take advantage against teams that play the run.

[swiper]

James Harris was one of the most horrid QBs in history. Ole 'Chicken Wing' Harris with the awkward side cocked chicken-wing throwing motion. So glad the Rams took that crap.

[YardRat]

Ok, the only successful starting QB the Bills developed for themselves from a rookie, who lasted more than a couple seasons, who started more than 4 games for them was Ferguson. That still stands out ridiculously in 57 seasons of franchise history. Developing a good backup means nothing. It's a simple irrefutable statement that the franchise has been incapable of finding and developing QB's from rookies through 57 seasons, some 17 head coaches and some 12 GM's.

The rest of your post just repeats what other people said in regard to relatively recent. The FA & trade QB's were listed before with the modern era particularly identified, well, as the "modern" era, not guys more than 27 years ago when the game was different.
There are some teams that have never drafted and developed a successful QB from Day 1, like Kansas City. Technically Denver also, but the trade did give them Elway as a rookie.

[Mace]

There are some teams that have never drafted and developed a successful QB from Day 1, like Kansas City. Technically Denver also, but the trade did give them Elway as a rookie.


That's dandy if it works. KC is 447-409-12 for franchise history, Denver 465-393-10. The Bills however, are 400-460-8 which kind of leads me down the "try something else like developing a QB because this is ridiculous" path.

[Thurmal]

There are some teams that have never drafted and developed a successful QB from Day 1, like Kansas City. Technically Denver also, but the trade did give them Elway as a rookie.

Kansas City, I believe, has not had a game won by a QB they drafted since 1987 -- Todd Blackledge. That is unbelievable.

[stuckincincy]

[QUOTE=Swiper;4306164]James Harris was one of the most horrid QBs in history. Ole 'Chicken Wing' Harris with the awkward side cocked chicken-wing throwing motion. So glad the Rams took that crap.[/QUOTE

Huh? In 3 seasons with the LA Rams ('74, '75, '76) He started 27 games. Over that span, the Ram's 3-season record was 32-9-1, making the playoffs all three seasons.

The Rams gladly took that crap.

[Mace]

Kansas City, I believe, has not had a game won by a QB they drafted since 1987 -- Todd Blackledge. That is unbelievable.

It absolutely is and I'd feel a lot worse for them if they weren't 62-50 since 2010 with 4 playoff appearances while we have been 46-66 without any.

[stuckincincy]

It absolutely is and I'd feel a lot worse for them if they weren't 62-50 since 2010 with 4 playoff appearances while we have been 46-66 without any.

CLE still leads in the QB merry-go-round derby, but IIRC, BUF has surpassed them in HC changes... :handball:

[Arm of Harm]

I would argue that the stupidity at the QB position begins at One Bills Drive. For years the Bills have tried to cut corners at the QB position, typically investing far less (in terms of first round draft picks) there than they've invested in positions like RB or DB. On the relatively rare occasions when they've drafted a QB in the first round, it's usually a guy with great physical tools but subpar accuracy and/or decision-making. Guys like Losman and Manuel. The combination of under-allocating draft-day resources and foolishly using those draft day resources which were allocated is why the Bills haven't drafted a real QB since 1983. (Over 30 years ago.) It's no coincidence that the Bills haven't been to the playoffs in almost 20 years.

Right now the Bills are facing twin droughts. The playoff drought and the QB drought. Several consecutive Bills front offices were responsible for these twin droughts; and each of those front offices really wanted (wants) job security. To achieve which, they seek Band-Aid solutions at QB. Note that none of these solutions have any benefit for us as fans. They are not stepping stones towards a Bills Super Bowl win. They are merely intended to provide job security for whichever marginally competent Bills front office happens to be keeping us out of the Super Bowl at the time. Tyrod Taylor is merely the most recent addition to this series of Band Aid solutions. He is the successor to Kyle Orton, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kelly Holcomb, Drew Bledsoe, and any other Bills QB capable of playing well enough to create job security for the front office, without putting us into any kind of realistic conversation about the Super Bowl.

It is pointless to argue about whether Tyrod Taylor is a better or worse Band Aid solution than, say, Jay Cutler or Tony Romo. If we are discussing things in those terms, we're just spinning our wheels.

If the problem is going to be solved, Step 1 needs to be for Pegula to install a Bills' front office which will avoid the two QB-related sins described above. We already know that this Bills front office can't evaluate QB talent, because they're the ones responsible for the Manuel pick. The replacement front office needs to place more emphasis on a QB's decision-making and accuracy than on his physical tools. Once the right front office is put in place, then Step 2 will be for it to obtain a long-term answer at QB.

[swiper]

[QUOTE=Swiper;4306164]James Harris was one of the most horrid QBs in history. Ole 'Chicken Wing' Harris with the awkward side cocked chicken-wing throwing motion. So glad the Rams took that crap.[/QUOTE

Huh? In 3 seasons with the LA Rams ('74, '75, '76) He started 27 games. Over that span, the Ram's 3-season record was 32-9-1, making the playoffs all three seasons.

The Rams gladly took that crap.

It was in spite of Harris. The Bills dumped him with his 49% comp percentage. He was horrid. Couldn't protect the ball. Just a nightmare. They plugged him in at QB on Chuck Knox's run-first, play strong defense team. He was displaced by Ron Jaworski and then Pat Haden. He really only played 74 & 75 before they dumped him. He had been injured a couple of times. In his most productive year, 1975, he threw 14 TD vs 15 INT. He was so bad the Rams owner booted him. A career 52% comp. passer. Yeah. I remember all the boos coming out of War Memorial Stadium. The Bills had two of the worst QBs in the league (the other being Dennis Shaw). Thank goodness for OJ Simpson.

[YardRat]

I would guess that if you count trades Buffalo has invested more first round picks toward acquiring a QB in the last 20 years than most teams in the league.

[Arm of Harm]

I would guess that if you count trades Buffalo has invested more first round picks toward acquiring a QB in the last 20 years than most teams in the league.

Could be. I certainly don't know enough about other teams' drafting habits to dispute your point, at any rate.

However . . . there's a difference between how the Bills have acted over the last 20 years, and how the teams that have solved their QB problems have acted. Over the course of several drafts, there will normally be several QBs taken in the first round, due primarily to their throwing accuracy and decision-making. Some years you might not get any QBs like that, other years it might be two or three. The last time the Bills used an early pick to draft a QB like that was 1983.

The 2004 draft was a perfect example. In terms of QBs there was discussion about the big three. (Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, and Ben Roethlisberger.) TD drafted Losman in the first round of that draft, after the big three were already off the board. Each of the big three proved a solution to his team's QB problems. Losman, obviously, did not. Even though Losman was a first round pick, he was drafted due to his physical gifts, not because of his accuracy or decision-making. Having invested in the QB position once, the right way, the Chargers, Giants, and Steelers didn't need to invest again for a very long time. In contrast to which, the Bills have been penny wise, pound foolish. Their envisioned long-term solutions have been based on blatant front office incompetence. When those long-term solutions have (inevitably) failed, they've turned to stopgaps, half measures, and efforts to mask the absence of any long-term answer at the position. The problem is under-commitment of resources at the decisive moment--the moment when the Bills' QB problems could have been solved. That initial under-commitment of resources, or misallocation of resources, is then followed by an over-commitment of draft picks or salary cap space to QBs who have done nothing at all to merit such.

I'll give some examples. In 2004, TD had inquired about trading up with Houston, so that he could draft Roethlisberger. But he demurred after deciding Houston's asking price for the pick was too high. Then in 2005 TD didn't attempt to trade back into the first round for Aaron Rodgers, because he'd convinced himself he was "all set" at QB with Losman. Years later, Doug Whaley would have the opportunity to draft Derek Carr. But he chose to pass up that chance because he had EJ Manuel, and because he wanted to draft Sammy Watkins instead. Any time you have the chance to draft a franchise QB, it's a decisive moment. A moment that will change the next ten plus years of your football team. For whatever reason, the Bills have consistently underallocated or misallocated resources to the QB position during these decisive moments, and have tried to make up for that by over-allocating resources to the position at other times.

[YardRat]

You can say the same about every team in the league, I'm sure nobody is immune from missing on a draft pick (like JP) or missing on an opportunity to move up and get one (like Ben) because they thought the price was too high.

Also, regarding Kelly, let's not get too deep into how smart that front office was considering they considered Tony Hunter a higher rated player and chose him in the first round before taking Jimbo a couple of picks later.

[Mr. Pink]

Picking up a guy like Nick Foles, drafting a QB within the first 3-4 rounds, and grooming him while Foles starts is a decent option, I think. I even think somebody like Hoyer would put up better numbers than Taylor with their run game. For far less money.

I've been saying either Hoyer or McGloin for a while now...after seeing McGloin in his attempt in Oakland when Carr went down I'm pretty against him...but still good on Hoyer.

Hoyer, while unspectacular, has a command for an offense. He can perform well, when healthy. He's exactly the guy you want to act as a bridge to the next guy as at this point he's gotta know he's not a future full time starter in this league due to his own limitations as a player and his health. He'd accept his role as a bridge to Mahomes, Kelly, Cardale Jones or whoever you take next year - whichever the case of all that may be. And he may even win you some games in the process while leading a team to a 6 seed...if he can stay healthy for a full season as he's an above .500 QB for his career even with last years abysmal Bears record.

Not to mention the fact that he should be actually cheap. He made 2m last year with the Bears and I don't see him making much more than that...2 years 5m and a few incentives should be plenty enough to get it done.

[Mace]

I would argue that the stupidity at the QB position begins at One Bills Drive. For years the Bills have tried to cut corners at the QB position, typically investing far less (in terms of first round draft picks) there than they've invested in positions like RB or DB. On the relatively rare occasions when they've drafted a QB in the first round, it's usually a guy with great physical tools but subpar accuracy and/or decision-making. Guys like Losman and Manuel. The combination of under-allocating draft-day resources and foolishly using those draft day resources which were allocated is why the Bills haven't drafted a real QB since 1983. (Over 30 years ago.) It's no coincidence that the Bills haven't been to the playoffs in almost 20 years.

Right now the Bills are facing twin droughts. The playoff drought and the QB drought. Several consecutive Bills front offices were responsible for these twin droughts; and each of those front offices really wanted (wants) job security. To achieve which, they seek Band-Aid solutions at QB. Note that none of these solutions have any benefit for us as fans. They are not stepping stones towards a Bills Super Bowl win. They are merely intended to provide job security for whichever marginally competent Bills front office happens to be keeping us out of the Super Bowl at the time. Tyrod Taylor is merely the most recent addition to this series of Band Aid solutions. He is the successor to Kyle Orton, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kelly Holcomb, Drew Bledsoe, and any other Bills QB capable of playing well enough to create job security for the front office, without putting us into any kind of realistic conversation about the Super Bowl.

It is pointless to argue about whether Tyrod Taylor is a better or worse Band Aid solution than, say, Jay Cutler or Tony Romo. If we are discussing things in those terms, we're just spinning our wheels.

If the problem is going to be solved, Step 1 needs to be for Pegula to install a Bills' front office which will avoid the two QB-related sins described above. We already know that this Bills front office can't evaluate QB talent, because they're the ones responsible for the Manuel pick. The replacement front office needs to place more emphasis on a QB's decision-making and accuracy than on his physical tools. Once the right front office is put in place, then Step 2 will be for it to obtain a long-term answer at QB.

There's probably one more step I have to keep harping on because it stands out like a sore thumb to me. They need to have staff to develop rookie QB's they draft.

-Chan Gailey didn't ever lean towards developing a QB, preferred vets.
-Marrone let his newb OC Hackett also be QB coach.
-Marrone then hired Downing as QB coach (close) but he was coming off a period of making Stafford regress in Detroit
-Rex hired Wildcat Lee, the essential not passing teacher of passers
-McDermott has hired Culley who has taught WR's the last 23 years, and has Lubick as assistant, who also taught WR's.

This is not a staffing methodology to develop quarterbacks. Any younger guys, unless emerging from spread or air raid offenses perfectly polished at reads and snaps under center with great mechanics and footwork, have no one to teach them in adapting to the pro game. Because of that, it can't be any surprise Manuel, Cardale, etc will probably exit with the same problems they came in with.

[Mr. Pink]

There's probably one more step I have to keep harping on because it stands out like a sore thumb to me. They need to have staff to develop rookie QB's they draft.

-Chan Gailey didn't ever lean towards developing a QB, preferred vets.
-Marrone let his newb OC Hackett also be QB coach.
-Marrone then hired Downing as QB coach (close) but he was coming off a period of making Stafford regress in Detroit
-Rex hired Wildcat Lee, the essential not passing teacher of passers
-McDermott has hired Culley who has taught WR's the last 23 years, and has Lubick as assistant, who also taught WR's.

This is not a staffing methodology to develop quarterbacks. Any younger guys, unless emerging from spread or air raid offenses perfectly polished at reads and snaps under center with great mechanics and footwork, have no one to teach them in adapting to the pro game. Because of that, it can't be any surprise Manuel, Cardale, etc will probably exit with the same problems they came in with.

It's easy to just simplify it as have a QB coach and the guy can succeed. However there are guys who have it and then guys who just don't. Put Manuel and Cardale into that area of guys who just don't have it. Losman was another guy who just didn't have it and a QB guru was brought in to try to coach him up - Sam Wyche.

The problem isn't the coaching on these guys, it's the talent evaluators who bring in hot garbage. I'm not excusing the poor coaching just that no one can turn chicken crap into chicken salad.

Put Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees on the Bills of the past decade and any of the coaches we had would have looked like geniuses.

[X-Era]

Put Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees on the Bills of the past decade and any of the coaches we had would have looked like geniuses.
I really believe it's t he sum of all the parts not just one. We can't say ____ QB would make us a SB team. We can't say ____ HC would make us a SB team. It's the lump sum.

The QB spot has not been adequately manned to get us to the SB since... the SB years. Go figure. But neither has the HC position... DE position... OL overall...

To me this is really simple. Tyrod's contract is very reasonable for an average starting QB. Picking up his option does not prevent us from drafting QB's until we find the right guy... DO BOTH. Keep Tyrod AND keep looking.

[YardRat]

I'm not excusing the poor coaching just that no one can turn chicken crap into chicken salad.

Well, somebody can, but it requires cheating.

[coastal]

The plan is to tank!

[Kenny]

The plan is to tank!

Get rid of TT and that's pretty much a given.

[SpikedLemonade]

The plan is to tank!

Why not?

[Mace]

It's easy to just simplify it as have a QB coach and the guy can succeed. However there are guys who have it and then guys who just don't. Put Manuel and Cardale into that area of guys who just don't have it. Losman was another guy who just didn't have it and a QB guru was brought in to try to coach him up - Sam Wyche.

The problem isn't the coaching on these guys, it's the talent evaluators who bring in hot garbage. I'm not excusing the poor coaching just that no one can turn chicken crap into chicken salad.

Put Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees on the Bills of the past decade and any of the coaches we had would have looked like geniuses.

Nah, just can't agree.

No point in trying to defend Losman the way he turned out, but useful to point out Wyche crowed about Losman's mobility (they talked of running and gunning), then spent the offseason publicly trying to break him of his footwork because he kept trying to use his mobility.

The QB's you mentioned are from a previous era, not spread or air raid. That era is gone. Luck was the last polished pro style QB coming out, and he doesn't come close to comparing with them outside of his early success in his weak division.

The problem absolutely IS coaching, and there's absolutely no way you can get around it. Dallas adapted their offense to work with Prescott, Tennessee & TB build teams around Mariota (Jason Michael previous OC) & Winston (Bajakian, QB coach history), Raiders helped Carr with Musgrave, Wentz in Philly has Reich.

They either have "it" or they don't is so oversimplified it is meaningless, because you're talking about spread/air raid shotgun QB's with 1, 2 reads per play entering the pro game of superior athletes and better DC's looking to stop you. Not teaching mechanics, footwork or reads with any degree of skill guarantees a revolving carousel of crapshoot, hoping guys can magically learn the most complex position in an unforgiving league in terms of time and patience.

I don't know of any skilled profession where a college graduate is plug and play without instruction, because the process is about moving from theory to execution, and the base of knowledge in terms of real world is nonexistent.

You flatly can't not "develop" a QB and say he didn't develop, it speaks for itself.

[The Jokeman]

The plan is to tank!

The problem with tank like scenarios is a guy you might lust over could return to school see Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck as examples.

[Mace]

The problem with tank like scenarios is a guy you might lust over could return to school see Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck as examples.

Additional problems with tank, on purpose or not, well look at the Browns and Sabres. Doesn't necessarily work like people expect it to.

[The Jokeman]

There's probably one more step I have to keep harping on because it stands out like a sore thumb to me. They need to have staff to develop rookie QB's they draft.

-Chan Gailey didn't ever lean towards developing a QB, preferred vets.
-Marrone let his newb OC Hackett also be QB coach.
-Marrone then hired Downing as QB coach (close) but he was coming off a period of making Stafford regress in Detroit
-Rex hired Wildcat Lee, the essential not passing teacher of passers
-McDermott has hired Culley who has taught WR's the last 23 years, and has Lubick as assistant, who also taught WR's.

This is not a staffing methodology to develop quarterbacks. Any younger guys, unless emerging from spread or air raid offenses perfectly polished at reads and snaps under center with great mechanics and footwork, have no one to teach them in adapting to the pro game. Because of that, it can't be any surprise Manuel, Cardale, etc will probably exit with the same problems they came in with.

I agree with some of what you said but not all. Case in point with Chan Gailey. I think had the Vikings not taken Christian Ponder we could have seen him in a Buffalo Bills QB. I think the biggest issues with the Bills is not matching skillet to QB except in the case of Tyrod as think the Greg Roman Colin Kaepernick offense matches Tyrod yet as we see it's not good enough. Dennison to me is a WCO type which to me isn't Tyrod at all. Though think it could be Foles/Hoyer and Trubinsky/Mahomes and most definitely Peterman.

[The Jokeman]

Additional problems with tank, on purpose or not, well look at the Browns and Sabres. Doesn't necessarily work like people expect it to.

I agree that Browns tanked. In terms that's a whole other matter as to me the NHL draft is rigged with their lottery hidden envelope system. As think it ironic franchises that need a super star to fill the seats find a way to get the Crosby, Ekbland, McDavid and Matthew's. Yet we fill it with an Eichel. I won't be surprised if Arizona or Winnipeg get number 1 this year.

[Mace]

I agree with some of what you said but not all. Case in point with Chan Gailey. I think had the Vikings not taken Christian Ponder we could have seen him in a Buffalo Bills QB. I think the biggest issues with the Bills is not matching skillet to QB except in the case of Tyrod as think the Greg Roman Colin Kaepernick offense matches Tyrod yet as we see it's not good enough. Dennison to me is a WCO type which to me isn't Tyrod at all. Though think it could be Foles/Hoyer and Trubinsky/Mahomes and most definitely Peterman.

Chan Gailey proved through his years, he didn't want to develop a QB, he wanted a vet. The only times he had to suffer young QB's were when there were injuries. He didn't want Ponder, totally unsuited to his pistol, he didn't want Kaepernick totally suited to his pistol. He wanted to stay with Fitz, vet. Chiefs started Huard the vet until stuck with Thigpen from injuries in Thigpen's only real productive year. Jets stuck with Fitz as long as they could.

Gailey wanted to use vets not tailor a QB.

[jimmifli]

The plan is to tank!

Nope. They're keep the Rod.

[Mr. Pink]

I really believe it's t he sum of all the parts not just one. We can't say ____ QB would make us a SB team. We can't say ____ HC would make us a SB team. It's the lump sum.

The QB spot has not been adequately manned to get us to the SB since... the SB years. Go figure. But neither has the HC position... DE position... OL overall...

To me this is really simple. Tyrod's contract is very reasonable for an average starting QB. Picking up his option does not prevent us from drafting QB's until we find the right guy... DO BOTH. Keep Tyrod AND keep looking.

I think it's just one. Look at Brady. The Pats have changed all the parts around him and he's still awesome regardless of what the Pats give him. Look at Manning, he switches teams let alone coaches and is still Peyton Manning. A great QB is great regardless of everything else and makes everyone around him better.

[jwenger]

Draft Watson at all costs. He is a leader and guys follow him.
Get Watson then it will all fall into place.

[Kenny]

Draft Watson at all costs. He is a leader and guys follow him.
Get Watson then it will all fall into place.

Sure why not? I mean look how well Tebow did

[The Jokeman]

Draft Watson at all costs. He is a leader and guys follow him.
Get Watson then it will all fall into place.

I'll give Watson credit to getting to the BCS championship back to back years and playing well and being g above average in both games. Yet I have a feeling we're going to be playing a WCO type offense a d not sure it plays to Watson's strengths.

[Bill Cody]

Draft Watson at all costs. He is a leader and guys follow him.
Get Watson then it will all fall into place.

I like leaders. My friend Bob leads me to the bar every Friday at 5 and you're right things seem to fall into place after that....

What were we talking about? Oh Watson. I'd pass on him. He throws it a lot to the guys in the other color jerseys, that scares me.

[Arm of Harm]

Nah, just can't agree.

No point in trying to defend Losman the way he turned out, but useful to point out Wyche crowed about Losman's mobility (they talked of running and gunning), then spent the offseason publicly trying to break him of his footwork because he kept trying to use his mobility.

The QB's you mentioned are from a previous era, not spread or air raid. That era is gone. Luck was the last polished pro style QB coming out, and he doesn't come close to comparing with them outside of his early success in his weak division.

The problem absolutely IS coaching, and there's absolutely no way you can get around it. Dallas adapted their offense to work with Prescott, Tennessee & TB build teams around Mariota (Jason Michael previous OC) & Winston (Bajakian, QB coach history), Raiders helped Carr with Musgrave, Wentz in Philly has Reich.

They either have "it" or they don't is so oversimplified it is meaningless, because you're talking about spread/air raid shotgun QB's with 1, 2 reads per play entering the pro game of superior athletes and better DC's looking to stop you. Not teaching mechanics, footwork or reads with any degree of skill guarantees a revolving carousel of crapshoot, hoping guys can magically learn the most complex position in an unforgiving league in terms of time and patience.

I don't know of any skilled profession where a college graduate is plug and play without instruction, because the process is about moving from theory to execution, and the base of knowledge in terms of real world is nonexistent.

You flatly can't not "develop" a QB and say he didn't develop, it speaks for itself.
I would argue that all the QBs we've acquired during the post-Kelly era were destined to fail regardless of coaching.

Take a guy like Rob Johnson for example. Was he put in a bad situation? Absolutely! The offensive line was horrendous, especially at pass protection. Ultimately his career in Buffalo fizzled out, after which he went to Tampa Bay as a backup. He said that one of the things which attracted him to Tampa was the good coaching (Jon Gruden). But Rob Johnson never amounted to anything in Tampa, despite having received Gruden's coaching.

Drew Bledsoe was essentially the same guy in Dallas as he'd been in Buffalo, except older and less capable. He even gave the Cowboys an initial eight game burst of good play before settling down to his usual self.

J.P. Losman and Trent Edwards were forced out of the NFL due to being unable to secure a roster spot. This, in what should have been the prime of their respective careers. If good coaching could have fixed them, you'd think that some good coach would have figured this out, and would have gotten them a space on his roster.

E.J. Manuel is what he was in college. Coaching isn't going to fix that.

Granted, the Bills' coaching during the post-Kelly era has typically been lacking. But the specific QBs the Bills drafted wouldn't have succeeded no matter what coaching they'd received.

[Mouldsie]

The whole Losman thing was laughable from so many angles it still pisses me off to this day.

Missedon Aaron Rodgers because we chased the 5th best QB in a draft with our future picks. We'd laugh if it was any other team.

[mdcas22]

Picking up a guy like Nick Foles, drafting a QB within the first 3-4 rounds, and grooming him while Foles starts is a decent option, I think. I even think somebody like Hoyer would put up better numbers than Taylor with their run game. For far less money.

the big question is Foles gonna be avl.

[Mouldsie]

Chan Gailey proved through his years, he didn't want to develop a QB, he wanted a vet. The only times he had to suffer young QB's were when there were injuries. He didn't want Ponder, totally unsuited to his pistol, he didn't want Kaepernick totally suited to his pistol. He wanted to stay with Fitz, vet. Chiefs started Huard the vet until stuck with Thigpen from injuries in Thigpen's only real productive year. Jets stuck with Fitz as long as they could.

Gailey wanted to use vets not tailor a QB.

This is all sorts of wrong IMO. Gailey is on record as wanting Russell Wilson BTW

[Mace]

This is all sorts of wrong IMO. Gailey is on record as wanting Russell Wilson BTW

You'll have to find a link and prove it. Gailey never started a rookie unless he absolutely had to.


Gailey acknowledged he had shown interest in Wilson, but was concerned that, at 5-foot-11 and 206 pounds, he might be too small to succeed at the NFL level.

http://pro32.ap.org/content/russell-wilson-soars-seahawks-rout-bills-50-17-0

[Mace]

I would argue that all the QBs we've acquired during the post-Kelly era were destined to fail regardless of coaching.

Take a guy like Rob Johnson for example. Was he put in a bad situation? Absolutely! The offensive line was horrendous, especially at pass protection. Ultimately his career in Buffalo fizzled out, after which he went to Tampa Bay as a backup. He said that one of the things which attracted him to Tampa was the good coaching (Jon Gruden). But Rob Johnson never amounted to anything in Tampa, despite having received Gruden's coaching.

Drew Bledsoe was essentially the same guy in Dallas as he'd been in Buffalo, except older and less capable. He even gave the Cowboys an initial eight game burst of good play before settling down to his usual self.

J.P. Losman and Trent Edwards were forced out of the NFL due to being unable to secure a roster spot. This, in what should have been the prime of their respective careers. If good coaching could have fixed them, you'd think that some good coach would have figured this out, and would have gotten them a space on his roster.

E.J. Manuel is what he was in college. Coaching isn't going to fix that.

Granted, the Bills' coaching during the post-Kelly era has typically been lacking. But the specific QBs the Bills drafted wouldn't have succeeded no matter what coaching they'd received.

Disagree.

"If good coaching could have fixed them, , you'd think that some good coach would have figured this out, and would have gotten them a space on his roster."

I'm not talking about fixing them, I'm talking about developing them. Poorly developed QB's are rarely "fixed", they're discarded because there's a fresh crop at a position with notoriously short attention span. It's prohibitive to get a developmental QB who has already spent several years with his habits, and now he's older and more expensive than one you can draft and develop.

You simply can't get a developmental QB and not develop him, but expect him to develop himself, then conclude he's the same as last year, draft another developmental QB you don't develop....rinse and repeat.

I'll mention again, Dallas adapted offense to Prescott the 5th round pick, Belichick started Brady out with a rushing offense before letting him pass more and more, and you see QB's coming out of NE with sound fundamentals if ultimately limited by their skill when they end up elsewhere.

That's development and it's coaching impact on player progress.

I can agree with you we don't get the best players at the position. But again, if you get a developmental guy from a spread or air raid, you know he's going to need developing. It's self defeating to not have anyone to develop them.