Let's break down the Gilleslie situation....

[OpIv37]

The Bills gave Gilleslie the 5th round tender instead of the 2nd round tender because they had mismanaged the cap so badly they couldn't spare $900k in cap room.

The Patriots- a team already so much more talented than us that they just won the SB- has cap room to spare and poached talent from us. True, we saved the cap space and got an extra draft pick but it's only going to go to replace what we lost.

The talent gap once again is altered in their favor. To put things in perspective, this is a backup RB- probably the easiest position to fill on an NFL roster. At the same time, it's a microcosm for everything wrong with this team. Our strongest division rival is more talented than us and has enough cap space that they can troll us over a backup RB. This dysfunctional organization just got *****-slapped by a team that actually knows what they are doing.

Over/Under for Gilleslie's stats in the 2 games he will now play against us: 200 yards and 3 TD's. I'm taking the over.

Remind me again why Doug Whaley and Jim Overdorf still have jobs?

[Gilly]

The Bills gave Gilleslie the 5th round tender instead of the 2nd round tender because they had mismanaged the cap so badly they couldn't spare $900k in cap room.

The Patriots- a team already so much more talented than us that they just won the SB- has cap room to spare and poached talent from us. True, we saved the cap space and got an extra draft pick but it's only going to go to replace what we lost.

The talent gap once again is altered in their favor. To put things in perspective, this is a backup RB- probably the easiest position to fill on an NFL roster. At the same time, it's a microcosm for everything wrong with this team. Our strongest division rival is more talented than us and has enough cap space that they can troll us over a backup RB. This dysfunctional organization just got *****-slapped by a team that actually knows what they are doing.

Over/Under for Gilleslie's stats in the 2 games he will now play against us: 200 yards and 3 TD's. I'm taking the over.

Remind me again why Doug Whaley and Jim Overdorf still have jobs?

Eh, extra pick in this draft and cap space is nice. Gillespie is just another RB.
I like him a lot but its time for Williams to step up,

[OpIv37]

Eh, extra pick in this draft and cap space is nice. Gillespie is just another RB.
I like him a lot but its time for Williams to step up,

uh, all the extra cap space and draft pick will do is replace what we lost. Williams is nice but we will still need a 3rd for when (not if) McCoy gets hurt.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Firing Whaley for the Gillislee situation is like firing the head of Enron for showing up late for work.

[OpIv37]

Firing Whaley for the Gillislee situation is like firing the head of Enron for showing up late for work.

Again, it's a microcosm. He's been so bad at managing the talent and the salary cap, which is how we ended up in this situation. This isn't a fireable offense on it's own. The cluster**** of mistakes that got us to this point means a lot of people should be fired for cause.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Again, it's a microcosm. He's been so bad at managing the talent and the salary cap, which is how we ended up in this situation. This isn't a fireable offense on it's own. The cluster**** of mistakes that got us to this point means a lot of people should be fired for cause.

Feel free to complain about the other dozens of bad decisions Whaley has made, I'm not going to stop you. Complaining about how he handled a backup running back who just became the 15th highest paid running back in 2017 is not going to convince me to get out my pitchfork.

[OpIv37]

Feel free to complain about the other dozens of bad decisions Whaley has made, I'm not going to stop you. Complaining about how he handled a backup running back who just became the 15th highest paid running back in 2017 is not going to convince me to get out my pitchfork.

then you're missing the larger picture. If he had handled the talent and the cap and the draft trades properly, this is a non issue. But he didn't, so it is an issue.

[Turf]

For some reason, Buffalo (we) always luck out with running backs. Looking back at our history, we've rarely lacked at RB through the years. I'm not concerned with RB right now.

[Joe Fo Sho]

then you're missing the larger picture. If he had handled the talent and the cap and the draft trades properly, this is a non issue. But he didn't, so it is an issue.

You should start a thread about the other mishandling of talent, the cap, and trades then. You should begin with players who start for the team, then move to backup positions that matter, then maybe end with backups for positions that are a dime-a-dozen like running backs.

[OpIv37]

You should start a thread about the other mishandling of talent, the cap, and trades then. You should begin with players who start for the team, then move to backup positions that matter, then maybe end with backups for positions that are a dime-a-dozen like running backs.

No, I should do exactly what I did and start a thread about a situation that highlights how a team that is already much better than us has more cap space than us and can afford to **** around like this. Your view is very myopic.

[Jry44]

No, I should do exactly what I did and start a thread about a situation that highlights how a team that is already much better than us has more cap space than us and can afford to **** around like this. Your view is very myopic.

Have you seen how many backs are currently on their roster, and what they're paying them? Is he even a lock to make their roster behind James White, Dion Lewis, and Rex Burkhead who is also making $3 million this year? Cool the jets man. If the belief that RB's are devalued in the league is true ( I do not believe this), then why in the hell would you over pay for a back that most teams would gladly trade for a 5th round pick anyway?

This is only making the waves that it is because it's the Patriots. Everyone gets on their nuts anytime they make a move. People were just saying what a great signing Rex Burkhead was a few months ago! Here's a news flash: they don't always hit on them either! There's a legit chance that we could get Gillislee back on waivers for much less than what NE paid for him.

Given our cap situation, the number of holes on the roster, and the small number of picks we had in the draft this year to fill those holes, tendering Gillislee at a 5th round tender in which we're guaranteed to get a pick back for a guy that was originally picked one pick before the compensation we're receiving for his tender is a no brainer. And it frees up space. This isn't a crushing loss.

[OpIv37]

Have you seen how many backs are currently on their roster, and what they're paying them? Is he even a lock to make their roster behind James White, Dion Lewis, and Rex Burkhead who is also making $3 million this year? Cool the jets man. If the belief that RB's are devalued in the league is true ( I do not believe this), then why in the hell would you over pay for a back that most teams would gladly trade for a 5th round pick anyway?

This is only making the waves that it is because it's the Patriots. Everyone gets on their nuts anytime they make a move. People were just saying what a great signing Rex Burkhead was a few months ago! Here's a news flash: they don't always hit on them either! There's a legit chance that we could get Gillislee back on waivers for much less than what NE paid for him.

Given our cap situation, the number of holes on the roster, and the small number of picks we had in the draft this year to fill those holes, tendering Gillislee at a 5th round tender in which we're guaranteed to get a pick back for a guy that was originally picked one pick before the compensation we're receiving for his tender is a no brainer. And it frees up space. This isn't a crushing loss.
Yeah we got an extra pick that we now need to use to replace Gilliesee. That was ****ing brilliant.

Again, myopic view. It's not about a backup running back. It's about the amount of mismanagement it takes for a team already superior to us to have enough cap space to pull this off.

[Cali512]

I can't disagree. Gills had about than 1/4th of our offensive TDs last year and showed more big play potential than any player on our team last year. We didn't keep our RB coach, obviously, so how is anyone sure that our new coaches will create another Karlos or Gills? Johnathon Williams looked slow as hell last year and seemed to always go down on first contract. This isn't good, but also not 6.4 million bad, we should of been smarter financially with McCoy, Clay (who I'd cut in a heartbeat if we could), Dareus, and now Hauschka.

Whaley needs to go, now. I am probably the most positive person you will ever meet when it comes to the bills, but holy ****
our contracts are ridiculous. Sadly you will see me being the first person ecstatic for every catch clay has, sack dareus has, and 100 yd game McCoy has

[Oaf]

One question, how come we got #164, which was a pick NE was traded instead of #176 NE's original 5th?

[GingerP]

NE traded their 5th previously. The pick has to be equal or better than their original pick, so the one they received from Denver is what the Bills get.

[alohabillsfan]

The patriots are only more talented with Brady at QB.

[DraftBoy]

The Bills gave Gilleslie the 5th round tender instead of the 2nd round tender because they had mismanaged the cap so badly they couldn't spare $900k in cap room.

The Patriots- a team already so much more talented than us that they just won the SB- has cap room to spare and poached talent from us. True, we saved the cap space and got an extra draft pick but it's only going to go to replace what we lost.

The talent gap once again is altered in their favor. To put things in perspective, this is a backup RB- probably the easiest position to fill on an NFL roster. At the same time, it's a microcosm for everything wrong with this team. Our strongest division rival is more talented than us and has enough cap space that they can troll us over a backup RB. This dysfunctional organization just got *****-slapped by a team that actually knows what they are doing.

Over/Under for Gilleslie's stats in the 2 games he will now play against us: 200 yards and 3 TD's. I'm taking the over.

Remind me again why Doug Whaley and Jim Overdorf still have jobs?

Two things:
1. There is nothing to support the premise that the Bills didn't place a higher tender on Gilly because they couldn't afford it.
2. The Bills already signed a 3rd RB this offseason in Tolbert.

Your justification and subsequent responses has been full of holes.

[jamze132]

Matching the offer sheet isn't the point. The problem is that he was assigned the 5th round comp to begin with. Anyone with half a brain could tell that some team was going to sign him to an offer sheet and we wouldn't match. It just looks ten times worse since the Patriots ****ed us again. OBD has mismanaged just about every facet of football for close to two decades. This situation is yet another nail in the coffin to solidify our position as the NFL's biggest joke; not the Browns.

[YardRat]

Can we break down the EJ Manuel and Marquise Goodwin situations next? Or IK Enemkpali ? Hell, we didn't have enough cap room to even shoot IK an offer, for chrissakes!

[GingerP]

The patriots are only more talented with Brady at QB.

Based on last year, they would still be pretty good if Garropollo has to play.

[BertSquirtgum]

The Bills gave Gilleslie the 5th round tender instead of the 2nd round tender because they had mismanaged the cap so badly they couldn't spare $900k in cap room.

The Patriots- a team already so much more talented than us that they just won the SB- has cap room to spare and poached talent from us. True, we saved the cap space and got an extra draft pick but it's only going to go to replace what we lost.

The talent gap once again is altered in their favor. To put things in perspective, this is a backup RB- probably the easiest position to fill on an NFL roster. At the same time, it's a microcosm for everything wrong with this team. Our strongest division rival is more talented than us and has enough cap space that they can troll us over a backup RB. This dysfunctional organization just got *****-slapped by a team that actually knows what they are doing.

Over/Under for Gilleslie's stats in the 2 games he will now play against us: 200 yards and 3 TD's. I'm taking the over.

Remind me again why Doug Whaley and Jim Overdorf still have jobs?

Whah whah whah. Get over it. :teary: :teary: :teary:

[DraftBoy]

Matching the offer sheet isn't the point. The problem is that he was assigned the 5th round comp to begin with. Anyone with half a brain could tell that some team was going to sign him to an offer sheet and we wouldn't match. It just looks ten times worse since the Patriots ****ed us again. OBD has mismanaged just about every facet of football for close to two decades. This situation is yet another nail in the coffin to solidify our position as the NFL's biggest joke; not the Browns.

I didn't agree with the low tender, but clearly that was how highly they value Gilly and were willing to risk losing him. Let's also recall that it took over a month into FA for Gilly to even get much of a sniff from another team so it wasn't like the Bills committed some mortal sin with his RFA tender that saw him get an offer sheet at midnight as soon as FA opened.

[DraftBoy]

Can we break down the EJ Manuel and Marquise Goodwin situations next? Or IK Enemkpali ? Hell, we didn't have enough cap room to even shoot IK an offer, for chrissakes!

I still can't believe we ever signed Enemkpali.

[Night Train]

i wouldn't be surprised that once the draft is completed, changes are coming.

McDermott may bring in some people he wants and Whaley, Overdorf amd more may be gone.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

I still can't believe we ever signed Enemkpali.


Just another move that idiotic clown probably thought was funny

[Joe Fo Sho]

No, I should do exactly what I did and start a thread about a situation that highlights how a team that is already much better than us has more cap space than us and can afford to **** around like this. Your view is very myopic.

You're only upset about this because it's New England.

If it was such a bad tender, how come no other team in the NFL signed him? Free agency started a month and a half ago, his first visit with a team was New England. Clearly the tender was pretty accurate, as 95% of NFL teams didn't jump to sign him. This was not a terrible decision be the front office, it just wasn't great. Then again, he's just a backup running back who doesn't understand the rules on a kickoff.

[The King]

OK can we be done breaking this down now? My stomach hurts.

[OpIv37]

You're only upset about this because it's New England.

If it was such a bad tender, how come no other team in the NFL signed him? Free agency started a month and a half ago, his first visit with a team was New England. Clearly the tender was pretty accurate, as 95% of NFL teams didn't jump to sign him. This was not a terrible decision be the front office, it just wasn't great. Then again, he's just a backup running back who doesn't understand the rules on a kickoff.
Of course I'm upset because it's NE. They are already more talented than us. The only way we are ever going to be more competitive is by closing the talent gap, but they just literally took talent off our roster and added it to their own. "It's just a backup RB"- justify it any way you want. The talent gap just went in the wrong direction yet again.

[Joe Fo Sho]

PAY THIS MAN!!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6v5olbgirw

[Historian]

This is not a thread about a backup Running Back.

The point OP is trying to make here is that these types of blunders have been common business practice at 1BD for over twenty years now, and nobody is ever held accountable.

This is one of the reasons why this team is in a perpetual state of rebuilding.

[Joe Fo Sho]

This is not a thread about a backup Running Back.

The point OP is trying to make here is that these types of blunders have been common business practice at 1BD for over twenty years now, and nobody is ever held accountable.

This is one of the reasons why this team is in a perpetual state of rebuilding.

There are dozens of other examples of why this team team is in a perpetual state of rebuilding that are better than this one.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Of course I'm upset because it's NE. They are already more talented than us. The only way we are ever going to be more competitive is by closing the talent gap, but they just literally took talent off our roster and added it to their own. "It's just a backup RB"- justify it any way you want. The talent gap just went in the wrong direction yet again.

Which team decreased the talent gap vs New England this offseason? Were there any?

[Night Train]

Post draft is when a change could be coming. The draft money is slotted.

So Whaley, Overdorf and more could then be moved out. McDermott could bring in his people.

[Jry44]

There are dozens of other examples of why this team team is in a perpetual state of rebuilding that are better than this one.

Haha, exactly. A back up running back isn't shattering the dreams of us Super Bowl dreamers. Same goes for Chris Hogan. He wasn't any more productive for NE than he was here really, he just had the opportunity to do it on a bigger stage.

As for this being the reason this team is so inept, I can think of only two occasions where this happened. At it was for depth players. Let it go, and let them pay him....

[swiper]

Again, it's a microcosm. He's been so bad at managing the talent and the salary cap, which is how we ended up in this situation. This isn't a fireable offense on it's own. The cluster**** of mistakes that got us to this point means a lot of people should be fired for cause.

Not really a microcosm at all. The Patriots made the Bills look like fools for not notching the tender up one single level. Nothing at all like firing the head of ENRON for showing up late to work.

Pegula kept Brandon and OVerdorf, hopefully to watch them, learn from them, and with the goal of fixing the mismanagement at OBD. It's been enough time now however. I agree that after this draft something could change. Pegula needs to bring in his own money man at the very least.

[swiper]

Haha, exactly. A back up running back isn't shattering the dreams of us Super Bowl dreamers. Same goes for Chris Hogan. He wasn't any more productive for NE than he was here really, he just had the opportunity to do it on a bigger stage.

As for this being the reason this team is so inept, I can think of only two occasions where this happened. At it was for depth players. Let it go, and let them pay him....

If all you can think of is two missteps bu OBD then you shouldn't even partake in the conversation.

[Jry44]

If all you can think of is two missteps bu OBD then you shouldn't even partake in the conversation.

Not missteps in general; instances where an RFA as popular as the last two guys got tendered and signed away. Please read what I say before replying with snark. Thanks.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Not really a microcosm at all. The Patriots made the Bills look like fools for not notching the tender up one single level. Nothing at all like firing the head of ENRON for showing up late to work.

Clearly it was an over-exaggeration, but you get the point.

You guys act like we're the 1st team to lose a restricted free agent. It's not 'embarrassing' that it happens, it's just the way it goes sometimes. We did it to Miami with Clay, right? He was transition tagged, which is pretty similar to the RFA tender. Did we embarrass the Dolphins? Did it prove that we were so smart and clever because the talent gap went in the right direction vs a division rival? And Clay was actually a starter for a position that actually matters when you have a competent QB. Give me a break.

[Buddo]

Tbh, I don't think they will be sitting down at OBD panicking about this. They obviously don't rate Gillislee as highly as many fans do. Otherwise they would have given him the 2nd round tender.

Personally, I think they should have, and if someone wanted him enough, they might have finagled a better pick than a 5th rounder for him. Thing is, you either just keep him for one more year, or you sign him to a multi-year deal, and probably what he wanted from a multi-year deal, wasn't what the FO was prepared to pay.

The bottom line is that we got a guy off the street for nothing, got some good production out of him, and then turned that into a 5th round pick. Doesn't sound quite so bad from that standpoint, does it?

Also, Gillislee is less than a backup, as he can't carry the load on his own, rather a complimentary back, who gave defenses something different to think about. This he did well, and probably will continue to do well for the scumbags. We actually need a guy who is the genuine backup to Shady, if he goes down. Williams may be capable of it, we just don't know, so I think there were distinct possibilities that we would be drafting a RB anyway, especially in a class as deep as this one is supposed to be at the position.

[OpIv37]

Yes, we schooled the Dolphins on that one and I said so at the time. Problem is, that was one win vs the cluster**** of management errors that led to the Gilleslie situation.

And do you really want to use Miami as your benchmark? Granted, they made the playoffs this year but they haven't been much better than us in the 2000's.

[SpikedLemonade]

OK can we be done breaking this down now? My stomach hurts.
Internal gas caused by a daily diet of broccoli, baked beans, cabbage and eggs?

Suggestion -- remove cork.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Yes, we schooled the Dolphins on that one and I said so at the time. Problem is, that was one win vs the cluster**** of management errors that led to the Gilleslie situation.

And do you really want to use Miami as your benchmark? Granted, they made the playoffs this year but they haven't been much better than us in the 2000's.

Well clearly they recovered from the complete and utter embarrassment that they and their fan base suffered when we signed such an important player off their roster. It probably took some therapy, but I think they're finally able to move on from it. Maybe we can, too.

[OpIv37]

Well clearly they recovered from the complete and utter embarrassment that they and their fan base suffered when we signed such an important player off their roster. It probably took some therapy, but I think they're finally able to move on from it. Maybe we can, too.
No, we can't- not as long as the same morons who created the situation remain in charge.

[justasportsfan]

If the bills tendered a 2nd round pick which would prevent the pats from signing him OP would be whining about overpaying a back up running back which he claims is a position that grows on trees. The bills are damned if they do, damned if they dont in OPs world.

[TigerJ]

I agree that it would have made sense to extend Gillislee a second round tender.
The cost difference was modest and easily manageable.

[OpIv37]

If the bills tendered a 2nd round pick which would prevent the pats from signing him OP would be whining about overpaying a back up running back which he claims is a position that grows on trees. The bills are damned if they do, damned if they dont in OPs world.
You just attempted to make an argument based on your assumption of how I would have reacted in a hypothetical situation that never actually occurred.

And you also went off topic and tried to make it about me.

Try harder.

[Joe Fo Sho]

No, we can't- not as long as the same morons who created the situation remain in charge.

I agree with you that Whaley shouldn't be here anymore. I disagree that this situation is a reason for him being fired.

And yes, we can absolutely recover from losing our backup running back. To think otherwise is absurd. That's the one position that I have faith the Bills can replace, because it's the least important position in football.

[Jry44]

The bottom line is that it makes no sense to pay top 15 RB money to a back up running back that doesn't play special teams. None! Especially considering it's a guy that we signed, released, and the resigned again at one point.

How many teams in the league, at this very moment, would trade their back up running back for a 5th round pick? A pretty damn high percentage of teams.

With a new coaching staff in place, new scheme on defense and probably offense, and so many holes to fill, that 5th round pick and saved salary is worth much more to the team than a back up running back that plays only one role. That's the bottom line.

[OpIv37]

I agree with you that Whaley shouldn't be here anymore. I disagree that this situation is a reason for him being fired.

And yes, we can absolutely recover from losing our backup running back. To think otherwise is absurd. That's the one position that I have faith the Bills can replace, because it's the least important position in football.

It's not the least important position when your starter can't stay healthy.

We had a guy who could do the job, we no longer have him, and the guy in charge of replacing him is the same one that gave us the current roster that lacks talent (and the same guy you just said shouldn't be here anymore).

- - - Updated - - -


The bottom line is that it makes no sense to pay top 15 RB money to a back up running back that doesn't play special teams. None! Especially considering it's a guy that we signed, released, and the resigned again at one point.

How many teams in the league, at this very moment, would trade their back up running back for a 5th round pick? A pretty damn high percentage of teams.

With a new coaching staff in place, new scheme on defense and probably offense, and so many holes to fill, that 5th round pick and saved salary is worth much more to the team than a back up running back that plays only one role. That's the bottom line.
In order to get that 5th round pick, we created another hole. It's a push at best.

[Joe Fo Sho]

It's not the least important position when your starter can't stay healthy.

Shady started 15 games last year on his way to over 1600 yards from scrimmage and 14 touchdowns. So unhealthy.

[OpIv37]

Shady started 15 games last year on his way to over 1600 yards from scrimmage and 14 touchdowns. So unhealthy.

He's missed time each of the last 3 seasons and he isn't going to get less injured as he gets older.

[Jry44]

It's not the least important position when your starter can't stay healthy.

We had a guy who could do the job, we no longer have him, and the guy in charge of replacing him is the same one that gave us the current roster that lacks talent (and the same guy you just said shouldn't be here anymore).

- - - Updated - - -


In order to get that 5th round pick, we created another hole. It's a push at best.

There's a pretty good chance that they were drafting another back regardless, due to the depth of the position in this years draft. Additionally, Mike Tolbert was signed to be the goal line back. So.... what hole?

A cheaper rookie that can take the same amount of carries and still give you something on special teams is more valuable than a guy that will cost you $4 million for 10 carries a game.

[Joe Fo Sho]

He's missed time each of the last 3 seasons and he isn't going to get less injured as he gets older.

He's missed 5 games the last 2 years, he started 16 games in 2014 (and 2013) for Philly.

Of course there's always risk, but Gilly could get injured too. That's what running backs do, they get injured. It's why you shouldn't pay them and why they're the least important position on the field.

[OpIv37]

There's a pretty good chance that they were drafting another back regardless, due to the depth of the position in this years draft. Additionally, Mike Tolbert was signed to be the goal line back. So.... what hole?

A cheaper rookie that can take the same amount of carries and still give you something on special teams is more valuable than a guy that will cost you $4 million for 10 carries a game.

Seriously? No draft pick is guaranteed to play well, and let's face it- if our FO was any good at drafting we'd have a more talented roster. You're talking about trading a known commodity for a question mark over a couple mil in cap space.

[OpIv37]

He's missed 5 games the last 2 years, he started 16 games in 2014 (and 2013) for Philly.

Of course there's always risk, but Gilly could get injured too. That's what running backs do, they get injured. It's why you shouldn't pay them and why they're the least important position on the field.
And how many games did he not finish or miss significant time to shake off an injury? Do you even watch the games?

[DraftBoy]

Yes, we schooled the Dolphins on that one and I said so at the time. Problem is, that was one win vs the cluster**** of management errors that led to the Gilleslie situation.

What situation are you even talking about? We put a tender on a player and another team paid him more than we were willing to.

We had the money to pay him if we thought his talent matched the valuation and we have a replacement already on the roster.

[OpIv37]

What situation are you even talking about? We put a tender on a player and another team paid him more than we were willing to.

We had the money to pay him if we thought his talent matched the valuation and we have a replacement already on the roster.

The situation that allowed talent to leave our roster and further increase the talent gap between us and our strongest division rival.

How are you not seeing this? We need to decrease the talent gap between us and them. This just increased it and gave us another hole to fill.

[Joe Fo Sho]

And how many games did he not finish or miss significant time to shake off an injury? Do you even watch the games?

About 100 carries worth last year, as that's how many carries Gillislee had. Pretty standard for a backup RB to have about 6-7 carries a game in today's NFL, nothing too Earth shattering. That is, until NE wants a player of ours.

[justasportsfan]

You just attempted to make an argument based on your assumption of how I would have reacted in a hypothetical situation that never actually occurred.

And you also went off topic and tried to make it about me.

Try harder.
Ah. NO . When it comes to you whining about the bills being damned if they do damned if they don't it's a common thing. Take PoZluszny for example. You whined for several threads how he was average and once we let him go you whined about the bills letting him go. Thats just one example.


You ***** a lot about how the bills and some fans over value our players. So no, I KNOW what you would have done had the bills tendered TD Mike a 2nd.

[Joe Fo Sho]

We need to decrease the talent gap between us and them.

Please name a team that decreased the talent gap between them an NE. I asked that before, but you skipped over the question.

[justasportsfan]

And you also went off topic and tried to make it about me.

Try harder.





http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/237436-Can-we-stop-with-this-type-of-happy-horse-****



Your "don't make this about me" is old. Try something new.

[Albany,n.y.]

PAY THIS MAN!!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6v5olbgirw

They don't call him Touchdown Mike for nothing!

In the long run, this spending spree by NE may come back to bite them big time. Since it appears that they're keeping Garoppolo, instead of trading him for a 1st rounder, as an insurance policy in case Brady fall off next season at age 40, I'm guessing their strategy will be (assuming Brady is still their guy after next season) to franchise Garoppolo looking for 2 #1s and possibly negotiating down from there if necessary. However, the question is-will they have enough cap room to franchise Jimmy G? I'm hoping they won't and they lose Jimmy G for nothing, when they could have gotten a #1 this year.

[phil3782]

Whaley should have been let go before the start of free agency, no question. But this move doesn't bother me all that much except it was a lost of a player to NE. I believe we need as many picks the next few years that we can so that they can turnover this roster to be a team the this new staff can win with.

[OpIv37]

Please name a team that decreased the talent gap between them an NE. I asked that before, but you skipped over the question.
I skipped over it because it isn't important. The only way we are ever going to be competitive is by decreasing the talent gap between us and them. Taking talent off our roster and putting it on theirs is the opposite of what needs to happen.

[Bill Cody]

The people that think this is no big deal and not worth posting about are sure doing a lot of posting in this thread to defend a mistake, even if it's not a huge one. Pretty funny thread. Gillslee should have gotten the 2nd round tender and he'd be a Bill and we'd have paid him more than we had to because he's earned it and would probably then look to sign here long term. That's forward thinking. The fact that it is NE does matter, they're in our division, I won't say rival because we're not that at this point. They had a great offseason without this signing but why do we need to add to it? It was needless and annoying. If you think it doesn't matter move on to another thread.

[Ed]

Some things to keep in mind about Gillislee and the Pats:

When the Bills signed Gillislee he was just a street FA that no other team even wanted on their practice squad. The fact that they signed a nobody and were able to get significant production out of them at a very cheap price is something they deserve credit for. Instead of giving him a significant raise they chose to part ways in exchange for a draft pick. If the Bills wanted to basically guarantee that he'd stay with the team they could have given him the 2nd round tender and paid him $2.8 mil for next season. Instead they chose to keep him at $1.8 mil or get a draft pick. You can disagree with Gillislee's value, but if the Bills really wanted to keep him they could have. They have the cap space so it's not an issue of not having a choice. Signing a street FA for dirt cheap, getting a couple years of solid production out of them, and then parlaying that player into a draft pick isn't a bumbling cluster-**** of a situation.

As for the Patriots and their cap situation, it's important to remember that Tom Brady has a cap hit of $14 mil for this season. His cap hit last year was about $13.8 mil. It goes up to $22 mil in 2018 and 2019. Tom Brady is the best player in the league and maybe the greatest player ever. His $14 mil cap hit for 2017 puts him 40th in the league. Think about that. Guys like Tannehill and Brock Osweiler have larger cap hits than Brady. The fact that the Pats get to have the greatest qb ever at a massive discount is a unique and extremely advantageous situation. If Brady were a FA I think it's fair to say that he could easily get a team to give him $30+ mil a season. But he takes less than he's worth so the Pats can be more competitive and sign other players. As long as the Pats have Tom Brady and extra cap space to work with, we're not closing the talent gap. It really sucks for us since we're in the same division, but you can't really compare their cap situation to other teams, or use it as some kind of indictment against the Bills. The Pats make plenty of bad draft picks, trades, and FA signings, but they can absorb those mistakes because they still have the best player at the most important position. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

The Bills have made plenty of mistakes and there's a lot to be frustrated about, but the Gilislee situation isn't the massive blunder people are trying to make it out to be. Their cap situation could be better, but it didn't prevent them from keeping Gilislee if they valued him that much.

[Jry44]

The situation that allowed talent to leave our roster and further increase the talent gap between us and our strongest division rival.

How are you not seeing this? We need to decrease the talent gap between us and them. This just increased it and gave us another hole to fill.

It's not that anyone isn't seeing,it's more that you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Do yourself a favor Thursday night. Get your hands on Zanax, was it down with some beers, and hide your laptop and phone for the weekend.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I skipped over it because it isn't important. The only way we are ever going to be competitive is by decreasing the talent gap between us and them. Taking talent off our roster and putting it on theirs is the opposite of what needs to happen.

This is just wrong.

No team has a winning history against Belichick and the Patriots. Are you saying that no team in the NFL is competitive? For corn's sake, we don't play NE 16 times a year. We can be competitive without Gillislee as our backup RB, there are a dozen other teams that do it.

[DraftBoy]

The situation that allowed talent to leave our roster and further increase the talent gap between us and our strongest division rival.

How are you not seeing this? We need to decrease the talent gap between us and them. This just increased it and gave us another hole to fill.

1. They had already replace the talent with their own guy (Tolbert).
2. You can't guarantee that Gilly at his talent makes NE any better. I'm sure they believe he does, but that's far from a guarantee that the talent divide has widened.

Because I'm not making up a scenario that assumes worst case scenario.

[Historian]

1. They had already replace the talent with their own guy (Tolbert).
2. You can't guarantee that Gilly at his talent makes NE any better. I'm sure they believe he does, but that's far from a guarantee that the talent divide has widened.

And part of OP's point, is that because their organization runs so well, they can take a shot at a flyer like this. (and as an added bonus, hurt a div rival in the process)

Conversely, the Bills FO is in such disarray, that we can't even offer our own guys a deserved pay raise.

That's the point.

[Jry44]

And part of OP's point, is that because their organization runs so well, they can take a shot at a flyer like this. (and as an added bonus, hurt a div rival in the process)

Conversely, the Bills FO is in such disarray, that we can't even offer our own guys a deserved pay raise.

That's the point.

I think we all get that. However, he drifted away from that point and into a ***** fit about losing Gillislee pretty quickly.

And they don't have the midas touch because they do miss on draft picks, and have whiffed on veteran FAs such as Albert Haynesworth, Chad Johnson, and Reggie Wayne.

[Joe Fo Sho]

And part of OP's point, is that because their organization runs so well, they can take a shot at a flyer like this. (and as an added bonus, hurt a div rival in the process)

Conversely, the Bills FO is in such disarray, that we can't even offer our own guys a deserved pay raise.

That's the point.

Tell that to Hughes, Dareus, Glenn, Incognito, McCoy, Wood, Kyle, Lorenzo, and Tyrod.

[swiper]

Not missteps in general; instances where an RFA as popular as the last two guys got tendered and signed away. Please read what I say before replying with snark. Thanks.

You didn't say that. And nevertheless it doesn't matter. It's still part of the missteps. And the Patriots have taken other Bills players before.

[DraftBoy]

And part of OP's point, is that because their organization runs so well, they can take a shot at a flyer like this. (and as an added bonus, hurt a div rival in the process)

Conversely, the Bills FO is in such disarray, that we can't even offer our own guys a deserved pay raise.

That's the point.

That's assuming that Gilly is more valuable than both Tolbert as a FA signing and Williams as a developmental back. It also assumed that Gilly would have been as successful in either our new system or in the New England new system as he was here for the past two seasons.

The Pats can afford to take flyers, there is no question there, but I'm not sure the Bills FO played this one incorrectly though.

They added a back they liked for their system and got a pick for a back they clearly didn't hold much value in. If Williams comes along at all (and that's a big IF) the Bills could actually have a more potent rushing attack than they had with just Shady and Gilly.

[swiper]

So we'll have to wait and see. How much Tolbert has left in the tank and that Williams can improve are big "ifs" given last season.

We'll see if Gillislee becomes the 2001 Antowain Smith (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitAn00.htm).

It's amazing that the "making a mountain out of a mole hill" people can only seem to remember back 2 years. It doesn't matter whether it be as a RFA or otherwise. The Bills are being set up to look like fools again.

[OpIv37]

This is just wrong.

No team has a winning history against Belichick and the Patriots. Are you saying that no team in the NFL is competitive? For corn's sake, we don't play NE 16 times a year. We can be competitive without Gillislee as our backup RB, there are a dozen other teams that do it.

Are you daft? They are in our div. We play them twice a year, and until we get our talent level on par with theirs, the best we can hope for is the annual AFC dogfight for a wild card. Until we close the talent gap with them, we won't be competitive. And that may mean waiting until they fall off and have to rebuild, but it certainly doesn't mean giving them our guys.

[OpIv37]

Some things to keep in mind about Gillislee and the Pats:

When the Bills signed Gillislee he was just a street FA that no other team even wanted on their practice squad. The fact that they signed a nobody and were able to get significant production out of them at a very cheap price is something they deserve credit for. Instead of giving him a significant raise they chose to part ways in exchange for a draft pick. If the Bills wanted to basically guarantee that he'd stay with the team they could have given him the 2nd round tender and paid him $2.8 mil for next season. Instead they chose to keep him at $1.8 mil or get a draft pick. You can disagree with Gillislee's value, but if the Bills really wanted to keep him they could have. They have the cap space so it's not an issue of not having a choice. Signing a street FA for dirt cheap, getting a couple years of solid production out of them, and then parlaying that player into a draft pick isn't a bumbling cluster-**** of a situation.

As for the Patriots and their cap situation, it's important to remember that Tom Brady has a cap hit of $14 mil for this season. His cap hit last year was about $13.8 mil. It goes up to $22 mil in 2018 and 2019. Tom Brady is the best player in the league and maybe the greatest player ever. His $14 mil cap hit for 2017 puts him 40th in the league. Think about that. Guys like Tannehill and Brock Osweiler have larger cap hits than Brady. The fact that the Pats get to have the greatest qb ever at a massive discount is a unique and extremely advantageous situation. If Brady were a FA I think it's fair to say that he could easily get a team to give him $30+ mil a season. But he takes less than he's worth so the Pats can be more competitive and sign other players. As long as the Pats have Tom Brady and extra cap space to work with, we're not closing the talent gap. It really sucks for us since we're in the same division, but you can't really compare their cap situation to other teams, or use it as some kind of indictment against the Bills. The Pats make plenty of bad draft picks, trades, and FA signings, but they can absorb those mistakes because they still have the best player at the most important position. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

The Bills have made plenty of mistakes and there's a lot to be frustrated about, but the Gilislee situation isn't the massive blunder people are trying to make it out to be. Their cap situation could be better, but it didn't prevent them from keeping Gilislee if they valued him that much.

So the FO gets credit for finding a quality player, but somehow they also get credit for choosing to not pay the same player? Huh?

[Joe Fo Sho]

Are you daft? They are in our div. We play them twice a year, and until we get our talent level on par with theirs, the best we can hope for is the annual AFC dogfight for a wild card. Until we close the talent gap with them, we won't be competitive. And that may mean waiting until they fall off and have to rebuild, but it certainly doesn't mean giving them our guys.

Dang, Gillislee really would've given us a shot at taking them out this year, too.

[Jry44]

You didn't say that. And nevertheless it doesn't matter. It's still part of the missteps. And the Patriots have taken other Bills players before.

It's totally what I said. Go back and re-read it. Reading translation....

Thanks for reminding me why I stopped reading message boards. Back to my hole......

[OpIv37]

Dang, Gillislee really would've given us a shot at taking them out this year, too.

They got a little better, we got a little worse. It makes a hard task that much harder.

[Joe Fo Sho]

They got a little better, we got a little worse. It makes a hard task that much harder.

I remember how Peyton Manning has struggled over the years to beat New England, especially in the playoffs. I remember when he beat them back in 2015, and he credited the victory to the 16 yards his backup running back Ronnie Hillman got that day. It blew the game wide open.

[OpIv37]

I remember how Peyton Manning has struggled over the years to beat New England, especially in the playoffs. I remember when he beat them back in 2015, and he credited the victory to the 16 yards his backup running back Ronnie Hillman got that day. It blew the game wide open.

Again, myopic view. We aren't closing the talent gap, and the fact that they already have so much talent and managed their cap better than we do allowed them to widen the talent gap further.

[OpIv37]

But at least I made you waste time looking up who Indy's backup was and how many yards he had in the playoffs.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Jesus Christ. This is the weakest example of bills front office incompetence over the lady 20 years. Without batting an eye I can think of 15 more. Yes it sucks but use a better example next time.

Ie: constantly drafting injured Clemson players.

[OpIv37]

Jesus Christ. This is the weakest example of bills front office incompetence over the lady 20 years. Without batting an eye I can think of 15 more. Yes it sucks but use a better example next time.

Ie: constantly drafting injured Clemson players.
You missed the point. The point is that they are more talented than us and have more cap space than us because of years of mismanagement by the FO. If it doesn't work out, they won't miss the cap space or the draft pick. We will.

[Joe Fo Sho]

But at least I made you waste time looking up who Indy's backup was and how many yards he had in the playoffs.

Manning played for Denver in 2015, so there!

- - - Updated - - -


You missed the point.

IT'S ABOUT THE TALENT GAP, GUYS! THE TALENT GAP! WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE SEE THAT?!

[Joe Fo Sho]

Well I was hoping you wasted time looking up Indy's stats before you remembered he was in Denver in 2015.

If I was worried about wasting my time, I wouldn't be in this thread...or on this forum...or following the Bills...or watching football at all...but where does it end? WHAT AM I GOING TO DO WITH MY VALUABLE TIME?!

[feldspar]

I liked Gillislee too, but...

Even if we DID give him a 2nd round tender, he more than likely would have walked next year anyway if we didn't show him the money...and the Bills would have nothing to show for it after this year...

Now, without Gillislee, we saved millions this year and got a 5th round draft pick.

[Ed]

So the FO gets credit for finding a quality player, but somehow they also get credit for choosing to not pay the same player? Huh?
The Bills get credit for signing a player that nobody wanted, getting a lot of bang for their buck out of that player, and getting another team to give up a draft pick for them. The Pats could have signed Gillislee off the stree for dirt cheap. Instead they're giving up a draft pick and paying about $3.2 mil a year for him. The Bills got him for nothing, paid him nothing, and have now converted him into an extra draft pick.

It's not the doom and gloom situation you're trying to make it out to be.

[feldspar]

The Bills get credit for signing a player that nobody wanted, getting a lot of bang for their buck out of that player, and getting another team to give up a draft pick for them. The Pats could have signed Gillislee off the stree for dirt cheap. Instead they're giving up a draft pick and paying about $3.2 mil a year for him. The Bills got him for nothing, paid him nothing, and have now converted him into an extra draft pick.

It's not the doom and gloom situation you're trying to make it out to be.

Yeah, but it's a microcosm of it all ;)

[Bill Cody]

Jesus Christ. This is the weakest example of bills front office incompetence over the lady 20 years. Without batting an eye I can think of 15 more. Yes it sucks but use a better example next time.

Ie: constantly drafting injured Clemson players.

we have and we will. This happened now which is why we're talking about it. I don't understand why talking about it is a problem. Does every issue have to be the future of the franchise to be worth a discussion? If you think it's a nothing burger click on a different thread, not hard.

Trust me every good team pays attention to every player on their roster. They pay attention to their cap. The ones that do that the best like NE win a lot. The teams that consistently make poor roster decisions and manage their cap poorly like the Bills don't. I'm done commenting on this move...for now. We can book mark it until next year when we again need something not earth shattering to talk about and see how the move looks in hindsight.

[justasportsfan]

They got a little better, we got a little worse. It makes a hard task that much harder.

How did they get a little bettet? Did they bring Blount back yet?

[OpIv37]

The Bills get credit for signing a player that nobody wanted, getting a lot of bang for their buck out of that player, and getting another team to give up a draft pick for them. The Pats could have signed Gillislee off the stree for dirt cheap. Instead they're giving up a draft pick and paying about $3.2 mil a year for him. The Bills got him for nothing, paid him nothing, and have now converted him into an extra draft pick.

It's not the doom and gloom situation you're trying to make it out to be.
There's so much spin in this post that it makes me dizzy.

The gloom and doom is that they're so much better than us that they don't give a **** about a 5th round pick or extra cap space.

[YardRat]

Do we get credit for closing the talent gap between us and Carolina, Atlanta, Seattle and Green Bay?

[feldspar]

There's so much spin in this post that it makes me dizzy.

The gloom and doom is that they're so much better than us that they don't give a **** about a 5th round pick or extra cap space.

Lots of good players sign in New England for a rebate because they want a chance at the Super Bowl; thus they have a more manageable cap space. This is what happens, no? Never heard of that? Even Brady restructures willingly.

Brady and Belichick together are monsters...that is why they are so good all the time, mostly. That is why players play there cheaper often.

The Bills losing Gillislee is the Bills losing Gillislee. They should get some compensation if he was going to walk next year anyway.

This is no "microcosm."

Everybody sucks in comparison because they don't have Belichick and Brady.

[Ed]

There's so much spin in this post that it makes me dizzy.

The gloom and doom is that they're so much better than us that they don't give a **** about a 5th round pick or extra cap space.
Where's the spin? They didn't want to pay a backup RB $3 mil a year so they took a draft pick instead.

The Pats do care about draft picks and cap space, but they have Tom Brady at a major discount. That's why they're so much better. And they're better than everyone. Not just the Bills.

[Saratoga Slim]

then you're missing the larger picture. If he had handled the talent and the cap and the draft trades properly, this is a non issue. But he didn't, so it is an issue.

I agree with you. You really should never ever be in a position where you can't afford $900K to keep the proven backup to an injury-prone running back in a run-heavy offense.

[Saratoga Slim]

Where's the spin? They didn't want to pay a backup RB $3 mil a year so they took a draft pick instead.

The problem isn't that they wouldn't match the Partriots offer sheet, no one's arguing that Gillislee is worth $4M a year. The problem is that we put the Pats in position to make him an offer for only 5th round compensation, because we couldn't afford to tender him at the 2nd round pick level (a difference of $900K). It's highly unlikely Pats would have coughed up a 2nd rounder AND paid through the teeth for Gillislee.

If we had given him (or been able to give him) the equivalent of one special teamer salary at the 2nd round tender, he'd either a) still be here or b) we'd have an extra 2nd round pick. Pretty easy to see why folks are questioning the FO's salary cap management.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Do we get credit for closing the talent gap between us and Carolina, Atlanta, Seattle and Green Bay?

Nope. The only thing that would make us competitive is if we closed the talent gap on the Patriots. Haven't you been paying attention?

[OpIv37]

Do we get credit for closing the talent gap between us and Carolina, Atlanta, Seattle and Green Bay?

No because we won't ever get to play them if we can't get past NE.

[Joe Fo Sho]

No because we won't ever get to play them if we can't get past NE.

That's not necessarily true.

[OpIv37]

That's not necessarily true.

Well we'll either have to beat them or beat someone else who was good enough to beat them so you do the math.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Well we'll either have to beat them or beat someone else who was good enough to beat them so you do the math.

As long as the team that beats New England doesn't have Gillislee for a backup running back, we might be ok.

[OpIv37]

As long as the team that beats New England doesn't have Gillislee for a backup running back, we might be ok.

And you're still missing the point.

[Joe Fo Sho]

And you're still missing the point.

And you're missing the joke.

I get it, it's all about the talent gap. Blah blah blah. If we could put an arbitrary number on the talent gap between the Bills and New England, before the Gillislee signing it was 50. After the Gillislee signing it's 51. It's a problem, we all know this. Whaley should be fired, Overdorf too. Fine. This particular example is still a terrible excuse for firing either of them. "BUT THIS IS JUST A MICROCOSM OF THE BIGGER ISSUE." Ok, then start some threads about the regular sized cosms of the issue.

[Ed]

The problem isn't that they wouldn't match the Partriots offer sheet, no one's arguing that Gillislee is worth $4M a year. The problem is that we put the Pats in position to make him an offer for only 5th round compensation, because we couldn't afford to tender him at the 2nd round pick level (a difference of $900K). It's highly unlikely Pats would have coughed up a 2nd rounder AND paid through the teeth for Gillislee.

If we had given him (or been able to give him) the equivalent of one special teamer salary at the 2nd round tender, he'd either a) still be here or b) we'd have an extra 2nd round pick. Pretty easy to see why folks are questioning the FO's salary cap management.
That statement simply isn't true. You guys are basically making the argument that the Bills wanted to give Gillislee the 2nd round tender, but they didn't have the money. That's false. If they wanted to pay him $2.8 mil for next season they could have. If you want to disagree with his value and their decision not to give him the 2nd round tender, that's fair, but to say that they couldn't is false.

[OpIv37]

That statement simply isn't true. You guys are basically making the argument that the Bills wanted to give Gillislee the 2nd round tender, but they didn't have the money. That's false. If they wanted to pay him $2.8 mil for next season they could have. If you want to disagree with his value and their decision not to give him the 2nd round tender, that's fair, but to say that they couldn't is false.

Technically they could afford him but we were short on cap space and they decided to save it for someone else. Meanwhile, NE- who is already better than us- has plenty of cap to spare.

How are we ever going to catch up to them with this type of mismanagement?

[justasportsfan]

Technically they could afford him but we were short on cap space and they decided to save it for someone else. Meanwhile, NE- who is already better than us- has plenty of cap to spare.

How are we ever going to catch up to them with this type of mismanagement?

this is stupid. If the bills tendered Gilleslie a 2nd, we would have been the ONLY team to pay their back up that much $ and OPiv would be crying that the bills think they are smarter than everyone else for being the only team to do so and are mismanaging our cap by overpaying for a position where players grow on trees.

No it's not hypothetical. OP has done it. I know what he would have whined .

[OpIv37]

this is stupid. If the bills tendered Gilleslie a 2nd, we would have been the ONLY team to pay their back up that much $ and OPiv would be crying that the bills think they are smarter than everyone else for being the only team to do so and are mismanaging our cap by overpaying for a position where players grow on trees.

No it's not hypothetical. OP has done it. I know what he would have whined .
Stop making about me, and if you don't think its hypothetical, clearly you don't understand what hypothetical means.

Spin it any way you want. They are already better than us and they have the cap space to do something like this while we don't.

[justasportsfan]

Stop making about me, and if you don't think its hypothetical, clearly you don't understand what hypothetical means.

Spin it any way you want. They are already better than us and they have the cap space to do something like this while we don't.

I'm the one who's spinning? You're the one who is attempting to make it look that they are screwing us over for the sake of doing so because they can when all they are trying to do is replace Blount with a cheaper option. The Pats have always undervalued that position and they are dong so with a back up rb.

[OpIv37]

I'm the one who's spinning? You're the one who is attempting to make it look that they are screwing us over for the sake of doing so because they can when all they are trying to do is replace Blount with a cheaper option. The Pats have always undervalued that position and they are dong so with a back up rb.

They already have a whole stable of running backs to try to replace Blount, not to mention Gilleslie isn't the only RB available.

[justasportsfan]

They already have a whole stable of running backs to try to replace Blount, not to mention Gilleslie isn't the only RB available.

They have a stable of nobodie's. Stop acting like they have a stable of Shady's. Sheez. You're reaching. Gillelie was great coming off the bench and that is what they brought him there for. Average at best RB by committee with the best QB running things.

[upstart]

Do we get credit for closing the talent gap between us and Carolina, Atlanta, Seattle and Green Bay?


Why in Gods name is that important ? Whouldn't getting in the AFC playoff picture be the goal ?

[YardRat]

They are already better than us and they have the cap space to do something like this while we don't.

Said 31 other teams in the NFL.

[OpIv37]

Said 31 other teams in the NFL.
That's no excuse. If some bully walks down the street and punches 30 people in the mouth and I'm 31, I'm not gonna put my hands behind my back and let him knock me out. I'm gonna do my best to block the punch and hit him back. I may succeed, I may fail, but at least I'll go down swinging.

This FO was so busy with their hands down their pants playing pocket pool that they couldn't defend themselves from the punch.