Top 10 Hated Players of all time by Bills fans

[Forward_Lateral]

Thought this would be a fun thread. They can be Bills players or opponents

Here's mine, in no particular order

1. Brady
2. Brian Cox
3. Rob Johnson
4. Billy Joe Playbook
5. Jason Taylor
6. Marino
7. Ricky Williams
8. Losman
9. Mark Gaustineau
10. Zach Thomas

Honorable Mention: Donte Whitner, anyone who's ever worn a Dolphins jersey, every Patriot.

I'm sure I missed a few. But these are the ones I could think of off of the top of my head.

[WagonCircler]

1. Colin Kaepernick
2. Brian Cox
3. Mark Gastineau
4. Keyshawn Johnson
5. Terrell Owens
6. Trent Edwards
7. Michael Irvin
8. Brady
9. Emmitt Smith
10. Kevin Greene

Honorable Mention: Randy Cross, Cris Carter (Never hated until they became broadcasters)

[sukie]

Brian Cox was around too short a time period to have me bother hating him.

I hated the NY sack exchange.
I despise anyone in a Miami uniform... (cept Thurman as nauseating as that vision is.)

I don't hate Brady... Just really tired of him.

[feldspar]

Thought this would be a fun thread. They can be Bills players or opponents

Here's mine, in no particular order

1. Brady
2. Brian Cox
3. Rob Johnson
4. Billy Joe Playbook
5. Jason Taylor
6. Marino
7. Ricky Williams
8. Losman
9. Mark Gaustineau
10. Zach Thomas

Honorable Mention: Donte Whitner, anyone who's ever worn a Dolphins jersey, every Patriot.

I'm sure I missed a few. But these are the ones I could think of off of the top of my head.

I try not to hate anybody, especially in the football realm.

But I can't see why you'd ever put Ricky Williams on this list. I actually like him.

Stick with guys like Rae Carruth, Aaron Hernandez, and yes, OJ Simpson.

Feelings about Brady or Belijerk would change rather quickly if they were on our team. Yeah, I hate those guys, but only with a grain of salt.

Hell, I do not like Jarvis Landry after what he did to Aaron Williams, but I can't put a list on it.

But you can't make a list that leaves out guys like Rae Carruth and includes guys that may have rubbed you the wrong way, especially if only because they slaughtered the Bills in football games a lot. I still don't like Dan Marino too much, but I've never met him, and he hasn't hurt anybody that I know of. I'd tend to "hate" somebody more if he did some horrible violent **** off the field...

Dunno the parameters of what we are talking about...

[OpIv37]

Donte Whitner is my most hated Bills player of all time. Lots of Bills players failed to live up to their draft status, but he's the only one that ran his mouth while doing it. Billy Joe Hobert gets honorable mention.

Of course Brady and Brian Cox. I really hate Wilfork cuz he's a dirtbag and Gronk cuz he's the stereotypical dumb jock.

I always hated playing against ole' noodle-arm Chad Pennington. The ball never went more than 10 yards but he got rid of it so quickly that it was difficult to get any pressure on him.

Troy Palomalu always bugged me too. Great player but that hair was ridiculous.

[Dr. Lecter]

Since Big Ben likes to drug and rape women, he gets a mention on my list.

What he did is way, way, way, way, way worse than Kaepernick.

[Joe Fo Sho]

1 - Bill Belichick
2 - Tom Brady
3 - Tedy Bruschi
4 - Donte Whitner
5 - Colin Kaepernick (since the day Harbaugh gave him Alex Smith's starting job)
6 - Rodney Harrison
7 - Andrew Luck
8 - Albert Haynesworth
9 - Mark Sanchez
10 - Any non-Bill who is currently trying to tackle Marshawn Lynch

[Forward_Lateral]

Forgot Wilfork. Good one.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Forgot Wilfork. Good one.

Wilfork is probably my favorite Patriot of all time, followed by Gronk.

What's the dealwith Wilfork, why don't people like him? I feel like I'm missing a story.

[feldspar]

Wilfork is probably my favorite Patriot of all time, followed by Gronk.

What's the dealwith Wilfork, why don't people like him? I feel like I'm missing a story.

Why do you think . It's because Wilfork is black...duh;)

I happen to not care for him particularly, and it has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a Chinese pygmy.

John Hannah was my favorite Patriot for a long time, and probably still is. The guy was great, and it was easier to like a Patriots player back then.

Gronk is a great player, but he kind of comes across as a dufus sometimes. Perhaps I wouldn't say that if he were a Bill...can't tell.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Gronk is a great player, but he kind of comes across as a dufus sometimes.

This is the reason why he's one of my favorites. People take life too seriously, he doesn't.

[ticatfan]

I thought at least one person would say Flutie.

[Thurmal]

Can't believe no one's mentioned Mark Clayton or Louis Oliver yet! Always running their mouths, and they were always ready with the "I still think we're the better team" sour-grapes routine after any game that Miami lost to Buffalo. After they retired, that role got picked up by Jason Taylor.

For a guy that I liked okay as a person, but drove me nuts as a player -- Wayne Chrebet. God only knows how many 7-yard catches he had against us on 3rd-and-6.

[Forward_Lateral]

Edleman is slowly becoming one of my most hated of all time. Little midget runs his mouth so much.

[Mr. Pink]

I'm shocked Ronnie Harmon and Scott Norwood aren't at the top of most lists.

[feldspar]

I'm shocked Ronnie Harmon and Scott Norwood aren't at the top of most lists.

Can't hate Scott Norwood.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Can't hate Scott Norwood.

I used to think you could, but after watching the Four Falls of Buffalo...you just can't.

[Dr. Lecter]

This is the reason why he's one of my favorites. People take life too seriously, he doesn't.

I agree. the guy has fun and isn't some milquetoast boring robot.

The guy is young, has a boatload of money and fame and is enjoying it. Good for him

[Dr. Lecter]

I used to think you could, but after watching the Four Falls of Buffalo...you just can't.
I never could. It's not like he missed a 27 yard kick because he was a bum that didn't care or was a **** up

[feldspar]

I never could. It's not like he missed a 27 yard kick because he was a bum that didn't care or was a **** up

He had never made a kick that far on grass, is what I remember.

They put him in the toughest spot in football, just about.

Why rub it in? I'm sure he feels bad enough about it already. He did his best, is what I say. Cannot hold that against him forever. Thankfully, Bills fans showed him some love right away. If I encounter him, I'll shake his hand. That's it.

Crazy end to that game, and not just because of that.

[Dr. Lecter]

I was much more upset with numerous defenders not being able to tackle Mark Ingram.

[feldspar]

I was much more upset with numerous defenders not being able to tackle Mark Ingram.

You got it, my friend.

THAT was the play.

Unbelievable.

[Dr. Lecter]

I mean it was Mark ***** Ingram. Not Jerry ***** Rice

[OpIv37]

1 - Bill Belichick
2 - Tom Brady
3 - Tedy Bruschi
4 - Donte Whitner
5 - Colin Kaepernick (since the day Harbaugh gave him Alex Smith's starting job)
6 - Rodney Harrison
7 - Andrew Luck
8 - Albert Haynesworth
9 - Mark Sanchez
10 - Any non-Bill who is currently trying to tackle Marshawn Lynch

Harrison, Sanchez and Bruschi should have made my list.

But I must say I hate Bruschi a lot more because ESPN wouldn't stfu about him in his comeback game against us, and that's totally not his fault.

[JoeMama]

The Patriots 10 best players.

[Night Train]

Hate ? Really ?

Loathe is probably a better term.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d4/f1/5e/d4f15ea58c1ef0a729b55095b8616dcf.jpg

[Albany,n.y.]

Wilfork is probably my favorite Patriot of all time, followed by Gronk.

What's the dealwith Wilfork, why don't people like him? I feel like I'm missing a story.

Wilfork is a dirty player who didn't care if he injured his opponent. Took out JP Losman's knee with a dirty hit in 2007 in the game at NE.

Cox is #1 of all time, gave Bills fans the finger at Rich Stadium.

[yordad]

How is magahee not mentioned?

[WagonCircler]

How is magahee not mentioned?

There are many types of idiots. But listening to Willis, you were never sure if he was a garden variety idiot or a special needs type of idiot.

You can't really hate on the developmentally disabled.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Wilfork is a dirty player who didn't care if he injured his opponent. Took out JP Losman's knee with a dirty hit in 2007 in the game at NE.

If that's all anyone has against Vince, it's certainly not going to sway my opinion. One dirty hit and a lack of caring about an opponent doesn't seem that bad to me.

[stuckincincy]

For me - WR Hines Ward, LB Jack Lambert, WR Steve Smith.

[bleve]

I haven't "hated" a sports personality since I was eight years old and had a Bobby Orr Sports Illustrated Cover Dart Board.

It's a game...

Having said that, current and past NFL players I thought were dicks....

Odell
Richard Sherman
Mark Gastineau
Bryan Cox - (Duh!)
Chad Johnson - do I need to explain?
Conrad Dobler - yeah, he played for the Bills, but he was a dick.
Johnny Manziel - not enough playing time - but a dick for sure.
Cam Newton - Never did anything against Buffalo, but see Superbowl 50
Bill Romanowski - total dick

and I'd throw Marsha Brady in there for the other. I play hockey with a guy who went to High School with him, and I can say that all the cheating/arrogance insults directed at this guy seem to ring true.

[yordad]

There are many types of idiots. But listening to Willis, you were never sure if he was a garden variety idiot or a special needs type of idiot.

You can't really hate on the developmentally disabled.
He called your city boring and your wife's ugly brah.

[Frenchman]

Norwood being disliked? Yeah he missed at the SB XXV but still do not place him as disliked.

[BertSquirtgum]

Since Big Ben likes to drug and rape women, he gets a mention on my list.

What he did is way, way, way, way, way worse than Kaepernick.
No

[Dr. Lecter]

If you think peacefully protesting by not standing for the anthem is worse than rape, than I am very sorry for you.

That's so far out of the realm of anything intelligent I don't know what to say

[WagonCircler]

He called your city boring and your wife's ugly brah.

But he's a full on ******.

******s get a pass.

[Zero]

1. Colin Kaepernick
2. Brian Cox
3. Mark Gastineau
4. Keyshawn Johnson
5. Terrell Owens
6. Trent Edwards
7. Michael Irvin
8. Brady
9. Emmitt Smith
10. Kevin Greene

Honorable Mention: Randy Cross, Cris Carter (Never hated until they became broadcasters)
Kap #1? Really? Care to elaborate?

[Mr. Miyagi]

Feelings about Brady or Belijerk would change rather quickly if they were on our team.

I hate it when people say that. If you feel that way then you're far too high on your pedestal and perhaps not passionate enough to get the pure, unadulterated fan hatred.

I for one absolutely DESPISE Tom Brady. I hope he gets hit by a train. Back and forth multiple times.

[Mr. Miyagi]

On the other hand, I don't necessarily HATE Bills players for sucking. They probably did the best they could, it's not their fault they have no talent and the dumbass team drafted them anyway. Trent Edwards, Mike Williams, Maybin, JP, McCargo. They wanted to be good more than anyone else, but too bad they sucked. Sorry.

Guys that ran their mouths and act like an arrogant dickhead God's gift to mankind piss me off the most. Brady, Whitner, McGahee, Edlemann, Bruschi, OBJ, Cam.

[Thurmal]

I hate it when people say that. If you feel that way then you're far too high on your pedestal and perhaps not passionate enough to get the pure, unadulterated fan hatred.
Agreed. If the Bills had Brady, I would be happy with the level of play of course, but the petulance and constant whining to refs would be embarrassing and still rub me the wrong way. It's also ridiculous when people say that if you dislike Brady, you're just jealous of his life. Right, because he's obviously the first athlete ever to be rich and have a hot wife.

[The King]

For Bills it's Chris Watson, JP Losman and Leodis McKelvin.

Non Bills it's Brady, Edelman, & Javon Landry

[Arm of Harm]

On the other hand, I don't necessarily HATE Bills players for sucking. They probably did the best they could, it's not their fault they have no talent and the dumbass team drafted them anyway. Trent Edwards, Mike Williams, Maybin, JP, McCargo. They wanted to be good more than anyone else, but too bad they sucked. Sorry.

Guys that ran their mouths and act like an arrogant dickhead God's gift to mankind piss me off the most. Brady, Whitner, McGahee, Edlemann, Bruschi, OBJ, Cam.

I've read that Mike Williams underachieved. Not entirely his fault: his coaches didn't hold him accountable, the way they did with the other offensive linemen. If he'd had better coaching--coaches which didn't let him slack off--maybe with his ability he could have become something. Or, maybe he would have washed out anyway due to lack of innate passion.

It's possible--but by no means certain--that Maybin used steroids before the draft in an effort to bulk up without losing speed or that "quick first step." At some point after the draft, of course, you have to stop using steroids, in order to avoid getting caught. If true, this would mean that Maybin deliberately deceived the Bills into thinking he was a much better prospect than he was, so that he could get a big payday when he signed his rookie contract. I understand the temptation, and I think lots of people would engage in such behavior if by doing so they could be set for life financially.

I have no problem with Trent Edwards. But if I could change one thing about his personality, it would be to make him a little less . . . domesticated. A football player should have a wild animal streak in him. A wild animal must be strong, because its environment is harsh. The opposite of being a wild animal is to be domesticated, tame, weak, politically correct. There was a little too much of that tameness in Trent Edwards. But he seemed like a good guy, and I wanted him to succeed.

[CommissarSpartacus]

1. JP Losman.

10. JP Losman.

2. - 9. JP Losman.

[Mr. Miyagi]

1. JP Losman.

10. JP Losman.

2. - 9. JP Losman.
I just don't see how you can hate Losman. So he wasn't good, but he wasn't a dick about it. He tried REALLY hard, I'm sure. He wanted to be good more than we all did. And for sucking and disappointing the fans, he got canned and out of the league for it. Remember he was "all in"? Bought a house in downtown when nobody else did? Why the hate?

[The King]

I just don't see how you can hate Losman. So he wasn't good, but he wasn't a dick about it. He tried REALLY hard, I'm sure. He wanted to be good more than we all did. And for sucking and disappointing the fans, he got canned and out of the league for it. Remember he was "all in"? Bought a house in downtown when nobody else did? Why the hate?
No he didn't. He had an ego. He bought a house to try and cash in on all the ass he was planning on getting. He was horrible and lazy.
Trent Edwards wasn't as talented but he put forth an effort and players actually rallied around him. Losman was the opposite, he blew it all up and it took years to repair.

I understand not hating players for sucking, but Losman was a special kind of disaster.

[Mace]

No he didn't. He had an ego. He bought a house to try and cash in on all the ass he was planning on getting. He was horrible and lazy.
Trent Edwards wasn't as talented but he put forth an effort and players actually rallied around him. Losman was the opposite, he blew it all up and it took years to repair.

I understand not hating players for sucking, but Losman was a special kind of disaster.

I never really hated any Bills players but you reminded me how much I despised Trent Edwards.

He put forth the effort and players rallied around him ? Huh ? Every sideline shot had him sitting by himself at the end of the bench fussing with his hair. In close games ? There he was, by himself, not in the middle of his offense or prowling the sidelines. I remember him not paying attention to the lone offensive assistant trying to show him something in a close game. Edwards just stared blankly at the field, smoothing his hair.

Remember that time Clay Matthews sacked him ? Looked like he was screwing Edwards when he braced himself on Trent's back shoving his nose into the turf before doing his pose. The o-line didn't rush over in defense, they stood and watched, hands on hips.

And just so because he wouldn't just freaking throw the ball, even away if he had to. Play after play, game after game, he was compelled to complete the checkdown behind the line of scrimmage to a swarmed back, or the 3rd and 8 one yard pass to a swarmed back, or take the hideous sack before timidly getting back up and going to the sidelines to sit on the edge of the bench by himself to redo his hair.

I've never seen a QB so timid and less defended by his teammates, because he didn't defend them, it was never his fault, he convinced himself he was "taking" what they gave and if it didn't work, and most often it didn't, well he did was he was supposed to.

Oh Trent Edwards was a special kind of abysmal in his own right.

[YardRat]

I'm closing in on 50 years as a fan in a few, there is no way in hell I can narrow it down to 10.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Bills:

Willis McNugget
OJ Simpson
Tiny Tim the Pizza Man Anderson
Robosack
Leodis McFumbles
Mike the Bust Williams
Erika Flowers
Eddie got pwnd by Chad Pennington Robinson
Jeff Touchdown Kansas City Teul
JD Williams

Opponents

Brian Cox
Tom Brady
Teddy Brewski
Emmitt Smith
Mark Friggen Ingram
Gregg Lloyd
Deion Sanders
Natrone Means
Dan Marino
Troy Aikman

[Mace]

I'm closing in on 50 years as a fan in a few, there is no way in hell I can narrow it down to 10.

Damn you're old.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I just don't see how you can hate Losman. So he wasn't good, but he wasn't a dick about it.

Even his mother thought he was a dick.

Troy Vincent broke his leg because he was a dick.

He got his coaches fired because he was a dick.

And when the Bills let him go finally, NO ONE ELSE IN THE LEAGUE offered him even a Waterboy's job.

Because he was a dick.

And all his fans? The Losmaniacs?

They were dicks too. It's why they liked him.

[swiper]

I just don't see how you can hate Losman. So he wasn't good, but he wasn't a dick about it. He tried REALLY hard, I'm sure. He wanted to be good more than we all did. And for sucking and disappointing the fans, he got canned and out of the league for it. Remember he was "all in"? Bought a house in downtown when nobody else did? Why the hate?

I don't know what shiva's continued infatuation with Losman is, but Losman was more about a horrible decision in the pick than it was about the player. Players often don't work. But reaching to take Losman effectively ended Tom Donahoe's career as a GM (he never worked again). And Aaron Rodgers seems very happy in Green Bay. But I can still see him in Red, White and Blue.

[Arm of Harm]

I don't know what shiva's continued infatuation with Losman is, but Losman was more about a horrible decision in the pick than it was about the player. Players often don't work. But reaching to take Losman effectively ended Tom Donahoe's career as a GM (he never worked again). And Aaron Rodgers seems very happy in Green Bay. But I can still see him in Red, White and Blue.

The end of TD's career wasn't solely about the Losman pick. In 2005--TD's last year--the Bills had become an aging team with a bad record, and little young talent. The Bills hadn't yet given up on Losman when the decision was made to pull the plug on TD. Put another way: TD's handling of non-QB positions was bad enough to get him fired even before taking into account the Losman bust.

In the 2006 draft Marv Levy didn't take any QBs, even though he could have had Jay Cutler. I'm not saying Cutler is Hall of Fame material or anything, but he's certainly a big upgrade over Losman! Instead of taking Cutler 8th overall, Marv chose to use the pick on SS Donte Whitner.

Initially TD had wanted to trade up for Roethlisberger, but decided Houston's asking price was too high. He felt comfortable with his Plan B, which was to draft Losman. Drafting Losman also (apparently) meant not drafting Aaron Rodgers in 2006, or Jay Cutler in 2007. Losman was a GM killer and a coach killer. I realize it's not Losman's fault that the Bills had third-rate GMs during his time with the team. But we really, really took it on the chin because of that one player. We could have had a top-5 ever QB (Aaron Rodgers) had it not been for Losman.

[Historian]

1. Rod Kush
2. Tom Cousineau
3. Rob Johnson
4. Deon Sanders
5. Tom Brady
6. Keyshawn Johnson
7. Boomer Esiason
8. Nick Buoniconti
9. Horst Muhlmann
10. Ron Smith

All *******s for various reasons.

[YardRat]

Aaron Rodgers is not a Top 5 of all time QB.

[Arm of Harm]

Aaron Rodgers is not a Top 5 of all time QB.

Aaron Rodgers has achieved (http://www.nfl.com/player/aaronrodgers/2506363/profile) a career rating of 7.9 yards per pass attempt, compared to 7.5 for Joe Montana (http://www.nfl.com/player/joemontana/2502166/profile) and 7.5 for Tom Brady (http://www.nfl.com/player/tombrady/2504211/profile). Rodgers has six 4000 yard seasons, compared to none for Montana and eight for Brady. (Brady has been in the league five years longer than Rodgers.) I'm not a big fan of QB rating, but for what it's worth Rodgers has a career QB rating of 104.1, compared to 97.2 for Brady and 92.3 for Montana.

I'm far more interested in a QB's pocket passing than I am in his rushing. That said, Rodgers averaged 5.1 yards a carry, compared to 1.8 yards per carry for Brady and 3.7 for Montana.

Rodgers also produced the best quarterbacking performance I've ever seen. It was the Super Bowl: Green Bay against Pittsburgh. Green Bay's offensive line was getting completely dominated by the Steelers. The Packers couldn't run the ball, and they couldn't stop the run. Despite receiving almost no pass protection whatsoever, Rodgers made one inaccurate throw the whole game. One. (Which fell incomplete.) Every throw other than that one was basically perfect. To the right target, and thrown about as accurately as a football can be thrown. I've never seen any other QB have a performance like that even with good pass protection. But when a QB has to run for his life practically every single play, and still manages to put up a performance like that, it's something. Johnny Unitas, Joe Montana, or Tom Brady wouldn't have won that Super Bowl for Green Bay.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

1. Rod Kush
2. Tom Cousineau
3. Rob Johnson
4. Deon Sanders
5. Tom Brady
6. Keyshawn Johnson
7. Boomer Esiason
8. Nick Buoniconti
9. Horst Muhlmann
10. Ron Smith

All *******s for various reasons.
In a way I am glad Cosineau said F you to us as he became Jim Kelly. So really it was all good.

[Wally The Barber]

You lads are way to young

Dan Marino Larry Csonka Joe Namath John Hannah Jack Lambert

[YardRat]

Aaron Rodgers isn't even the best QB in his team's history...maybe not even #2...let alone top 5 of all time.

[swiper]

I mean it was Mark ***** Ingram. Not Jerry ***** Rice

NFL is fixed like the WWE.

[swiper]

1. Rod Kush
2. Tom Cousineau
3. Rob Johnson
4. Deon Sanders
5. Tom Brady
6. Keyshawn Johnson
7. Boomer Esiason
8. Nick Buoniconti
9. Horst Muhlmann
10. Ron Smith

All *******s for various reasons.

No Brian Cox?

[Arm of Harm]

Aaron Rodgers isn't even the best QB in his team's history...maybe not even #2...let alone top 5 of all time.



Rodgers is better than Favre, hands-down. No question at all about that. He's also better than Bart Starr. Back in Starr's day the Packers were a run-oriented team. In Starr's best year (http://www.nfl.com/player/bartstarr/2526407/profile) he had 2438 passing yards. (Equivalent to 2786 yards over a 16 game season.) Let's look at the worst full season for Rodgers. (I'm defining a "full season" as a season in which the QB started at least 12 games.) In Rodgers' worst full season, he threw for 3821 yards. That's over 1000 yards more than Starr's best season (equivalent to 2786 yards over 16 games).

You could counter that by pointing out that the 1960s Packers passed the ball less often than does today's Packers team; making it harder for a guy to pile up passing yards. And that's true. So at that point you look at yards per attempt: 7.8 for Starr, 7.9 for Rodgers. The problem with that comparison is that yards per attempt overstates the accomplishments of a run offense QB, and understates those of a QB in a pass-first offense. That's why Matt Schaub has a higher career yards per pass attempt than Joe Montana or Tom Brady. Just as yards per attempt is overstating the achievements of Schaub and understating those of Brady and Montana; it's also overstating the achievements of Starr and understating those of Rodgers. Rodgers is better than Starr, and it's not even close.

[Frenchman]

1. Colin Kaepernick
2. Brian Cox
3. James Harrison
4. Terrell Owens
5. Chad Ocho Cinco Johnson
6. Keyshawn Johnson.
7. Albert Haynesworth
8. Jim McMahon
9. Simeon Rice
10. Desmond Howard

Could go on and on.

[YardRat]

You can toss around all of the stats you want, they are irrelevant, especially when trying to compare completely different generations. I'm not a Bart Starr fan myself (or Favre either, really) but IMO you'd be hard-pressed to find a Packer fan that has Rodgers rated as the best QB in their history (unless he is the only QB they've ever known) and it's probably a pretty healthy discussion whether he is Top 2 with many of them.

[Arm of Harm]

You can toss around all of the stats you want, they are irrelevant, especially when trying to compare completely different generations. I'm not a Bart Starr fan myself (or Favre either, really) but IMO you'd be hard-pressed to find a Packer fan that has Rodgers rated as the best QB in their history (unless he is the only QB they've ever known) and it's probably a pretty healthy discussion whether he is Top 2 with many of them.

Having looked at a lot of stats, my sense is that stats such as yards per attempt and QB rating are driven not so much by era, as they are by the type of offense being run. A run-oriented offense typically means a boost to a QB's yards per attempt, but a reduction in his QB rating. Whereas, a West Coast offense with lots of short passes will boost a QB's completion percentage, and therefore his QB rating. On the other hand his yards per attempt will take a hit, because only a small percentage of his pass attempts will be to targets deep downfield.

Generally speaking, yards per attempt will make a run-offense QB look better than he should; while QB rating will make a pass offense QB look better than he deserves. Rodgers (very slightly) comes out ahead of Starr even in the comparison that's unfair to him (yards per attempt). Whereas, if you look at the comparison that's unfair to Starr--QB rating--Rodgers clearly dominates. A QB rating of 104.1 for Rodgers to 80.5 for Starr.

Starr threw 1.1 TDs for every INT. Rodgers has thrown 4.1 TDs for every INT. Montana's ratio is 2.0; Brady's is 3.0.

The stats clearly place Rodgers in the same elite company as Brady and Montana. So why aren't people giving him the same kind of credit they'd give the other two?

I think that for a lot of people it comes down to championships. Montana's teams won four Super Bowls; Brady's won five, Bradshaw's won four, Starr's won five NFL championships (including two Super Bowl wins). Rodgers has just one Super Bowl win, so people conclude he isn't as good as the others. (Even though his stats say otherwise.)

It's not like Joe Montana went out and drafted Ronnie Lott, or Jerry Rice, or his multiple Pro Bowl offensive linemen. Nor did Terry Bradshaw draft the Steel Curtain defense or the various Hall of Fame teammates he had on offense. Montana, Brady, Bradshaw, and Starr happened to be on much better football teams than any team Rodgers has been a part of. That doesn't make those guys better quarterbacks than Rodgers--it just means they got luckier.

[swiper]

You can toss around all of the stats you want, they are irrelevant, especially when trying to compare completely different generations. I'm not a Bart Starr fan myself (or Favre either, really) but IMO you'd be hard-pressed to find a Packer fan that has Rodgers rated as the best QB in their history (unless he is the only QB they've ever known) and it's probably a pretty healthy discussion whether he is Top 2 with many of them.

He's right. Bart Starr was not a great QB (neither was Jack Kemp). Favre was, but Rodgers is the best QB in Packers history. Unless you're a Lynn Dickey or John Hadl fan.

Here you go: http://www.espn.com/sportsnation/story/_/id/19683238/the-franchise-qbs-rank-top-signal-callers-green-bay-packers-history

[CommissarSpartacus]

Bart Starr was not only the best qb the Packers ever had, he's a serious contender for best NFL qb ever.

I've been watching NFL football since 1959 and watched the AFL during its run, and Bart Starr, IMO, played the position the best.

Tom Brady is the only guy who comes close.

Other guys have stats and rings and were, and are great in their own right, but Starr is still the best.

[swiper]

Bart Starr was not only the best qb the Packers ever had, he's a serious contender for best NFL qb ever.

I've been watching NFL football since 1959 and watched the AFL during its run, and Bart Starr, IMO, played the position the best.

Tom Brady is the only guy who comes close.

Other guys have stats and rings and were, and are great in their own right, but Starr is still the best.

You don't know what you are watching since 1959.

Bart Starr was not as good as Joe Montana, Roger Staubach, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady right off the top of my head. Crawl back under your rock.

[Arm of Harm]

Bart Starr was not only the best qb the Packers ever had, he's a serious contender for best NFL qb ever.

I've been watching NFL football since 1959 and watched the AFL during its run, and Bart Starr, IMO, played the position the best.

Tom Brady is the only guy who comes close.

Other guys have stats and rings and were, and are great in their own right, but Starr is still the best.

There will be times when I'll watch the same movie as a middle aged adult that I watched as a kid, or as a teenager. Normally I find that I'm much less easily impressed as an adult. And not just with movies: but with books, and almost anything else where you can draw a fair, 1:1 comparison to what I saw as a kid or as a teen.

You watched Bart Starr at a young age; and it's quite possible you were more easily impressed then, than you are now.

CJ Spiller had that one season in which he averaged an astonishing 6.0 yards per carry. But, as good as that average was, it was a little inflated by the fact that the Bills had a pass-oriented offense that season. That helped boost Spiller's per-carry stats. Achieving that same yards per carry in a run-oriented offense would have been a significantly greater accomplishment. (Not that there was anything wrong with what Spiller did do that season.)

The best running back in NFL history needs to be a guy who operated in a run-oriented offense. Not a guy who CJ Spillered his way to a shiny per-carry average in a pass-oriented offense. Likewise, the best QB in NFL history needs to be a guy who carried the offense on his back, in a pass-oriented offense. Not just a guy who Matt Schaubed his way to a shiny yards per pass attempt in a run-oriented offense. (Matt Schaub's career yards per pass attempt is higher than Tom Brady's; largely because Schaub had the luxury of operating in a run-oriented offense.)

Aaron Rodgers' yards per pass attempt is higher than Schaub's, or Brady's, or Starr's, or Montana's. Even though a run-oriented offense tends to boost a QB's yards per pass attempt--thereby helping Schaub and Starr--Rodgers comes out ahead of Starr even so. You look at almost any stat of Rodgers', and it's going to be jaw-droppingly good. Any time a QB puts up the kind of insanely good numbers we're seeing from Rodgers, it's worth sitting up and taking notice. And, at least when I've seen him play, his success came despite woefully inadequate pass protection from his OL, despite a moribund running game, and despite some key drops by his receivers. His stats may actually be understating his level of play.

[Night Train]

Don't forget Miami G Bob Kuechenberg.

After the 1980 game when the Bills broke the Miami losing streak (dating back to 1969 ), he stated that game was the lowest point of his career..since the Bills were the worst team in football.

Bills were 11-5 that year and won the division. F U Bob and loved watching the HOF pass him over year after year..which hurt him personally.

Karma.

[feldspar]

There will be times when I'll watch the same movie as a middle aged adult that I watched as a kid, or as a teenager. Normally I find that I'm much less easily impressed as an adult. And not just with movies: but with books, and almost anything else where you can draw a fair, 1:1 comparison to what I saw as a kid or as a teen.

You watched Bart Starr at a young age; and it's quite possible you were more easily impressed then, than you are now.

CJ Spiller had that one season in which he averaged an astonishing 6.0 yards per carry. But, as good as that average was, it was a little inflated by the fact that the Bills had a pass-oriented offense that season. That helped boost Spiller's per-carry stats. Achieving that same yards per carry in a run-oriented offense would have been a significantly greater accomplishment. (Not that there was anything wrong with what Spiller did do that season.)

The best running back in NFL history needs to be a guy who operated in a run-oriented offense. Not a guy who CJ Spillered his way to a shiny per-carry average in a pass-oriented offense. Likewise, the best QB in NFL history needs to be a guy who carried the offense on his back, in a pass-oriented offense. Not just a guy who Matt Schaubed his way to a shiny yards per pass attempt in a run-oriented offense. (Matt Schaub's career yards per pass attempt is higher than Tom Brady's; largely because Schaub had the luxury of operating in a run-oriented offense.)

Aaron Rodgers' yards per pass attempt is higher than Schaub's, or Brady's, or Starr's, or Montana's. Even though a run-oriented offense tends to boost a QB's yards per pass attempt--thereby helping Schaub and Starr--Rodgers comes out ahead of Starr even so. You look at almost any stat of Rodgers', and it's going to be jaw-droppingly good. Any time a QB puts up the kind of insanely good numbers we're seeing from Rodgers, it's worth sitting up and taking notice. And, at least when I've seen him play, his success came despite woefully inadequate pass protection from his OL, despite a moribund running game, and despite some key drops by his receivers. His stats may actually be understating his level of play.

Stop with your stats.

[stuckincincy]

Stop with your stats.

You blaspheme.

Stats are the lifeblood of sports sites. :nervous:

[bleve]

Bart Starr was not only the best qb the Packers ever had, he's a serious contender for best NFL qb ever.

I've been watching NFL football since 1959 and watched the AFL during its run, and Bart Starr, IMO, played the position the best.

Tom Brady is the only guy who comes close.

Other guys have stats and rings and were, and are great in their own right, but Starr is still the best.

That's a lot of years watching. If you come to the conclusion Starr was the best, you must have been napping when Unitas was playing.

[CommissarSpartacus]

There will be times when I'll watch the same movie as a middle aged adult that I watched as a kid, or as a teenager. Normally I find that I'm much less easily impressed as an adult. And not just with movies: but with books, and almost anything else where you can draw a fair, 1:1 comparison to what I saw as a kid or as a teen.

You watched Bart Starr at a young age; and it's quite possible you were more easily impressed then, than you are now.

CJ Spiller...

Anyone that compares Bart Starr IN ANY WAY to CJ Spiller is demented.

That being said...

http://www.salon.com/2001/12/06/starr_6/

THURSDAY, DEC 6, 2001 04:25 AM GMT

The greatest quarterback of all time

Overlooked by most polls, the best person to ever take a snap in the NFL is Bart Starr.

ALLEN BARRA

Last week I wrote that in the NFL, good passing beats good running, and I think I got a nasty e-mail from every reader who ever played high school football. Please, no more “My coach has 35 years’ worth of experience and he says …” e-mails! I know what your coach said; that’s why he’s still a high school coach.

And, please, no more with “Your theory …” What I’ve done is taken 40 years of accumulated football wisdom and tried to cull some lessons from it. So, I’m pleased to see I have a lot of readers. And I’m sure to get a lot more nasty e-mails when I weigh in on the oldest of pro football debates: Who is the best quarterback of all time?

Depends. Are you talking best athlete, most potential, most career value? I’m never sure what someone else is asking, but I know what I want. For instance, is the “best” quarterback the one you want playing for*your*team in the big game? If it is, then the end-of-century polls have got it all wrong: The best quarterback in pro football history isn’t Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas or Otto Graham or Dan Marino or John Elway. If by best you mean most likely to win championships, then the man you want in back of your center is Bart Starr.

Why do I have to go back 30-some years to pick my best quarterback? Well, for starters, it’s the last time in football when they were full, complete players, as God and Vince Lombardi intended them to be. Unlike the generation that followed, ’60s quarterbacks weren’t automatons, mere “snap-takers” acting out the orders of sideline brain trusts. Quarterbacks were expected to help conceive and carry out game plans, and call their own plays. Bart Starr did this better than any quarterback he played against and perhaps better than anyone ever. Starting with the last four games of the 1959 season through a handful of injury-riddled appearances in 1969, Starr posted a standard of clutch performances in big games unmatched in NFL history.

...more...

[CommissarSpartacus]

That's a lot of years watching. If you come to the conclusion Starr was the best, you must have been napping when Unitas was playing.

Or, if you think Unitas was the best, a head injury must have prevented you from watching Otto Graham.

Like I said, there are lots of guys that were great in their own right, but if you wanted a winner, that was Bart Starr.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Greatest QB of all time: Bart Starr

http://m.packers.com/news/video/greatest-qb-of-all-time-bart-starr-fefd9c41-d03f-42c4-8452-e11198e037c1

For video highlights of who every serious Packers fan considers the greatest...

[CommissarSpartacus]

http://www.footballnation.net/content/the-definitive-list-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks/6376/

The definitive list: Top 10 NFL quarterbacks

Posted on 1/24/2008 7:00:00 AM

By*Kerry Byrne*FN In-House Expert

...

1. BART STARR*(Green Bay, 1956-71)

Best*season (1966):*156 for 251 (62.2%), 2,257 yards, 9.0 YPA, 14 TD, 3 INT, 105.0 passer rating

Career:*1,808 for 3,149 (57.4%), 24,718 yards, 7.8 YPA, 152 TD, 138 INT, 80.5 passer rating*

Championships:*1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967

Overview:*That's right. Bart Starr. The greatest quarterback in the history of the game.

Sit down and take notes:

History has done a grave disservice to the legacy of Starr, the 17th-round draft pick out of pre-Bear Bryant Alabama who turned into the most clutch and most cruelly efficient passing assassin of his or any other generation.

History remembers Starr's legendary coach, and the bevy of Hall of Fame talent that surrounded him. It forgets that Starr was Lombardi's second in command, a tremendous big-game performer, and that the Packers of the 1960s would have been just another team without the prolific Starr as their beloved on-field leader. Instead, they won five NFL championships, with Starr at the helm of every single one of those title teams, while he crafted an NFL-record 9-1 postseason mark. The rings say it all: Starr is the only quarterback in history who has one for every finger on his throwing hand.

And even if you listen to teammates today, they make it pretty clear that they would have fallen on a grenade for Starr. Leadership is an elemental piece of quarterbacking – probably more important than gaudy passing stats. And that love his teammates had for their field general is an incredible sign of his leadership.

But forget, for a moment, the team accomplishments and the "intangibles" of leadership.

If you want to talk passing and statistics, we'll put Starr up against anybody. Anybody.

He led the NFL in passer rating five times. Johnny Unitas led the league in passer rating just twice. Ditto Joe Montana. Only Steve Young surpassed Starr's mark (six).

And, lest we forget, Starr was the best postseason passer in NFL history, as evidenced by his record 104.8 playoff passer rating and 1.41 percent interception rate, also a postseason record (CHFF readers are well aware of the importance of not throwing picks in the playoffs). Starr played in an era when 80 was a decent passer rating. Yet he still performed more efficiently in the playoffs than folks such as Montana, Brady, Manning, Marino, Young and ... well, anybody, ever.

There's a cause and effect here, folks: NFL's greatest dynasty, only winners of three-straight title games, and a record 9-1 postseason mark. And there, underlying it all, is Starr with his postseason passing records. The two are intricately intertwined.

History also remembers Starr's Packers as a great running team, and that's certainly true of their earlier years. But the truth is that they typically passed the ball more effectively than they ran it, especially during their run of three straight, when they were a below-average running team.

In their 1965 championship season, the Packers were 11th in the 14-team league with an average of 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. They were second in the league, with an average of 8.2 yards per passing attempt.

In their 1966 championship season, the Packers were 14th in the 15-team league, with an average of 3.5 yards per rushing attempt. They were first in the league, with an average of 8.9 yards per passing attempt.

In their 1967 championship season, the Packers were*4th in the 16-team league, with an average of 4.0 yards per rushing attempt. They*were first in the league, with an*average of 8.3 yards per passing attempt (Starr himself that season averaged 8.7 YPA).

Starr averaged a remarkable 7.85 YPA over the course of his entire career,*the 8th-best mark in history, and better than that of a slate of quarterbacks who are generally regarded as the best passers in history, including Dan Marino (7.37), Joe Montana (7.52), Roger Staubach (7.67), Dan Fouts (7.68), Sonny Jurgensen (7.56), Fran Tarkenton (7.27), Y.A. Tittle (7.52), Terry Bradshaw (7.17) and Joe Namath (7.35).

Six times in the 1960s, Starr surpassed 8.2 YPA for a season. To put that into context, Peyton Manning has surpassed 8.2 YPA just twice in his brilliant 10-year career.

And, if you want drama, don't forget that Starr*scored the winning TD in the Ice Bowl, probably the most famous game in NFL history. Sure, Montana led his team 92 yards for the game-winning score in Super Bowl XXIII. But he did it on a 68-degree night in Miami. Turn down the thermostat by 86 degrees (it was 18-below in the fourth quarter of the Ice Bowl) and you begin to approximate the conditions under which the greatest quarterback in NFL history operated during his greatest moment in the sport's greatest game.

And Starr was brilliant on that drive, in the decisive moments of the sport's most famous game: he completed 5 of 5 passes in ball-busting cold, and then called a run play for the winning score. But instead of handing it off, he decided in his mind, without telling his teammates, that he was going to punch it in himself. It was only fitting: the game's greatest signal-caller taking matters into his own hands in the sport's signature moment.

To cap his career*achievements, Starr*earned*MVP honors in the first two Super Bowls after shredding the best the AFL could throw his way for 452 yards on 47 passing attempts (9.6 YPA).*Among those victims were the 1967 Raiders,*perhaps the AFL's greatest single team. He posted a combined 106.0 passer rating in those two games. If you think it was no small feat to beat up on "upstart" AFL teams, just look at how NFL*quarterbacks fared in Super Bowls III and IV. (Here's a hint: they were embarrassed.)

When it comes to a combination of leadership, victories, big-game performances and statistical supremacy nobody – NOBODY – put together a more total package than Bart Starr, the greatest quarterback in NFL history.

[Night Train]

Sammy Baugh, Johnny Unitas and Otto Graham were all far better than Bart Starr.

Otto Graham was in the league championship game all 10 years he played, winning 7.

[Dr. Lecter]

It's absolutely impossible to compare QBs from different eras. The game has changed so dramatically and the rules for the offense are nothing like the past.

[ticatfan]

Even his mother thought he was a dick.

Troy Vincent broke his leg because he was a dick.

He got his coaches fired because he was a dick.

And when the Bills let him go finally, NO ONE ELSE IN THE LEAGUE offered him even a Waterboy's job.

Because he was a dick.

And all his fans? The Losmaniacs?

They were dicks too. It's why they liked him.Or even the CFL. lol

[Kenny]

Brady and Cox are pretty much interchangeable for me as #1 and well.. #1.

Not sure how to rank the other players, but one I would add, even though he's new/young is Odell Beckham. What a whiny little *****. I really cant stand that guy.

[Arm of Harm]

http://www.footballnation.net/content/the-definitive-list-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks/6376/

The definitive list: Top 10 NFL quarterbacks

Posted on 1/24/2008 7:00:00 AM

By*Kerry Byrne*FN In-House Expert

...

1. BART STARR*(Green Bay, 1956-71)

Best*season (1966):*156 for 251 (62.2%), 2,257 yards, 9.0 YPA, 14 TD, 3 INT, 105.0 passer rating

Career:*1,808 for 3,149 (57.4%), 24,718 yards, 7.8 YPA, 152 TD, 138 INT, 80.5 passer rating*

Championships:*1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967

Overview:*That's right. Bart Starr. The greatest quarterback in the history of the game.

Sit down and take notes:

History has done a grave disservice to the legacy of Starr, the 17th-round draft pick out of pre-Bear Bryant Alabama who turned into the most clutch and most cruelly efficient passing assassin of his or any other generation.

History remembers Starr's legendary coach, and the bevy of Hall of Fame talent that surrounded him. It forgets that Starr was Lombardi's second in command, a tremendous big-game performer, and that the Packers of the 1960s would have been just another team without the prolific Starr as their beloved on-field leader. Instead, they won five NFL championships, with Starr at the helm of every single one of those title teams, while he crafted an NFL-record 9-1 postseason mark. The rings say it all: Starr is the only quarterback in history who has one for every finger on his throwing hand.

And even if you listen to teammates today, they make it pretty clear that they would have fallen on a grenade for Starr. Leadership is an elemental piece of quarterbacking – probably more important than gaudy passing stats. And that love his teammates had for their field general is an incredible sign of his leadership.

But forget, for a moment, the team accomplishments and the "intangibles" of leadership.

If you want to talk passing and statistics, we'll put Starr up against anybody. Anybody.

He led the NFL in passer rating five times. Johnny Unitas led the league in passer rating just twice. Ditto Joe Montana. Only Steve Young surpassed Starr's mark (six).

And, lest we forget, Starr was the best postseason passer in NFL history, as evidenced by his record 104.8 playoff passer rating and 1.41 percent interception rate, also a postseason record (CHFF readers are well aware of the importance of not throwing picks in the playoffs). Starr played in an era when 80 was a decent passer rating. Yet he still performed more efficiently in the playoffs than folks such as Montana, Brady, Manning, Marino, Young and ... well, anybody, ever.

There's a cause and effect here, folks: NFL's greatest dynasty, only winners of three-straight title games, and a record 9-1 postseason mark. And there, underlying it all, is Starr with his postseason passing records. The two are intricately intertwined.

History also remembers Starr's Packers as a great running team, and that's certainly true of their earlier years. But the truth is that they typically passed the ball more effectively than they ran it, especially during their run of three straight, when they were a below-average running team.

In their 1965 championship season, the Packers were 11th in the 14-team league with an average of 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. They were second in the league, with an average of 8.2 yards per passing attempt.

In their 1966 championship season, the Packers were 14th in the 15-team league, with an average of 3.5 yards per rushing attempt. They were first in the league, with an average of 8.9 yards per passing attempt.

In their 1967 championship season, the Packers were*4th in the 16-team league, with an average of 4.0 yards per rushing attempt. They*were first in the league, with an*average of 8.3 yards per passing attempt (Starr himself that season averaged 8.7 YPA).

Starr averaged a remarkable 7.85 YPA over the course of his entire career,*the 8th-best mark in history, and better than that of a slate of quarterbacks who are generally regarded as the best passers in history, including Dan Marino (7.37), Joe Montana (7.52), Roger Staubach (7.67), Dan Fouts (7.68), Sonny Jurgensen (7.56), Fran Tarkenton (7.27), Y.A. Tittle (7.52), Terry Bradshaw (7.17) and Joe Namath (7.35).

Six times in the 1960s, Starr surpassed 8.2 YPA for a season. To put that into context, Peyton Manning has surpassed 8.2 YPA just twice in his brilliant 10-year career.

And, if you want drama, don't forget that Starr*scored the winning TD in the Ice Bowl, probably the most famous game in NFL history. Sure, Montana led his team 92 yards for the game-winning score in Super Bowl XXIII. But he did it on a 68-degree night in Miami. Turn down the thermostat by 86 degrees (it was 18-below in the fourth quarter of the Ice Bowl) and you begin to approximate the conditions under which the greatest quarterback in NFL history operated during his greatest moment in the sport's greatest game.

And Starr was brilliant on that drive, in the decisive moments of the sport's most famous game: he completed 5 of 5 passes in ball-busting cold, and then called a run play for the winning score. But instead of handing it off, he decided in his mind, without telling his teammates, that he was going to punch it in himself. It was only fitting: the game's greatest signal-caller taking matters into his own hands in the sport's signature moment.

To cap his career*achievements, Starr*earned*MVP honors in the first two Super Bowls after shredding the best the AFL could throw his way for 452 yards on 47 passing attempts (9.6 YPA).*Among those victims were the 1967 Raiders,*perhaps the AFL's greatest single team. He posted a combined 106.0 passer rating in those two games. If you think it was no small feat to beat up on "upstart" AFL teams, just look at how NFL*quarterbacks fared in Super Bowls III and IV. (Here's a hint: they were embarrassed.)

When it comes to a combination of leadership, victories, big-game performances and statistical supremacy nobody – NOBODY – put together a more total package than Bart Starr, the greatest quarterback in NFL history.



I've seen articles like this before, and I disagree with them. As one of the articles you found pointed out, Johnny Unitas has almost twice as many career passing yards as Bart Starr. That means that comparing Unitas' and Starr's yards per attempt is not apples-to-apples; because a run-oriented offense will tend to boost a QB's yards per attempt.

Evidence to that effect can be found in the article itself. Bart Starr's career yards per attempt is 7.8. The author mentioned that in 1965 - 1967, the Packers' yards per rush attempt varied between 3.4 and 4.0. So why call many more rushing plays than passing plays, if an average passing play gets you twice as many yards as an average running play? Why leave all those extra yards on the table? Had the Packers become a pass-oriented team, it would have hurt Starr's average yards per pass attempt. Vince Lombardi understood this, which is why he elected to maintain a run-oriented offense. Johnny Unitas was the best QB of that era; because his yards per attempt was almost identical to Starr's, and because Unitas achieved that high YPA in a far more pass-oriented offense than Starr's.

"If you want to talk passing and statistics, we'll put Starr up against anybody. Anybody." The author goes on to favorably compare Starr's yards per attempt to that of other QBs, such as Montana and Brady. But the author neglects to mention that Bart Starr's passing statistics are not as good as those of Aaron Rodgers. Rodgers has a slightly higher yards per attempt--7.9 to 7.8. The bigger difference is in INT percentage: 1.5% for Rodgers, 4.3% for Starr. When you take into account the fact that Starr was operating a run-oriented offense--and therefore receiving an artificial boost to his yards per pass attempt--his stats don't even come close to those of Aaron Rodgers. (As an aside, Rodgers is also ahead of Brady in INT percentage, but not much. Brady's is 1.8%.)

[CommissarSpartacus]

I've seen articles like this before, and I disagree with them. As one of the articles you found pointed out, Johnny Unitas has almost twice as many career passing yards as Bart Starr. That means that comparing Unitas' and Starr's yards per attempt is not apples-to-apples; because a run-oriented offense will tend to boost a QB's yards per attempt.

Evidence to that effect can be found in the article itself. Bart Starr's career yards per attempt is 7.8. The author mentioned that in 1965 - 1967, the Packers' yards per rush attempt varied between 3.4 and 4.0. So why call many more rushing plays than passing plays, if an average passing play gets you twice as many yards as an average running play? Why leave all those extra yards on the table? Had the Packers become a pass-oriented team, it would have hurt Starr's average yards per pass attempt. Vince Lombardi understood this, which is why he elected to maintain a run-oriented offense. Johnny Unitas was the best QB of that era; because his yards per attempt was almost identical to Starr's, and because Unitas achieved that high YPA in a far more pass-oriented offense than Starr's.

"If you want to talk passing and statistics, we'll put Starr up against anybody. Anybody." The author goes on to favorably compare Starr's yards per attempt to that of other QBs, such as Montana and Brady. But the author neglects to mention that Bart Starr's passing statistics are not as good as those of Aaron Rodgers. Rodgers has a slightly higher yards per attempt--7.9 to 7.8. The bigger difference is in INT percentage: 1.5% for Rodgers, 4.3% for Starr. When you take into account the fact that Starr was operating a run-oriented offense--and therefore receiving an artificial boost to his yards per pass attempt--his stats don't even come close to those of Aaron Rodgers. (As an aside, Rodgers is also ahead of Brady in INT percentage, but not much. Brady's is 1.8%.)

The Packers didn't have a "run oriented" offense, they ran a "move the ball, keep possession and score points" oriented offense.

The qbs job is to be as efficient as possible in putting points on the board and play their best when the pressure is on to lead their team to victory.

Bart Starr did that better than anyone.

[swiper]

The Packers didn't have a "run oriented" offense, they ran a "move the ball, keep possession and score points" oriented offense.

The qbs job is to be as efficient as possible in putting points on the board and play their best when the pressure is on to lead their team to victory.

Bart Starr did that better than anyone.

No. He didn't. He was a pretty good QB at best. Come back when you develop a clue. It's a widely accepted fact.

Johnny Unitas was a great QB. Neither Bart Starr nor Jack Kemp were. They get far too much credit.

[swiper]

Greatest QB of all time: Bart Starr

http://m.packers.com/news/video/greatest-qb-of-all-time-bart-starr-fefd9c41-d03f-42c4-8452-e11198e037c1

For video highlights of who every serious Packers fan considers the greatest...

ROFLMAO. This is your lesson for the day in your "the internet is shiva's friend" journey. If you think Bart Starr was the best anything QB related, then you are just plain stupid.

Yet most if us already realize that.

[swiper]

The Packers didn't have a "run oriented" offense, they ran a "move the ball, keep possession and score points" oriented offense.

The qbs job is to be as efficient as possible in putting points on the board and play their best when the pressure is on to lead their team to victory.

Bart Starr did that better than anyone.

Wrong again Sally. The Packers certainly did have a run-oriented offense.


Starr was the perfect leader and quarterback for Vince Lombardi's dynasty with the Packers. Lombardi was a no-nonsense coach who won with a running offense and great execution. Starr was the field general who made plays down the stretch in big games.

Starr was there to not screw up. He did an adequate job of that, but he was not great.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18581054/greatest-quarterbacks-all-ranking-john-clayton-picks-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-best-nfl-qb-ever

He gets over-rated in every poll because he was surrounded by the greatest team of all time and best coach in NFL history.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Wrong again Sally. The Packers certainly did have a run-oriented offense.



Starr was there to not screw up. He did an adequate job of that, but he was not great.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18581054/greatest-quarterbacks-all-ranking-john-clayton-picks-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-best-nfl-qb-ever

He gets over-rated in every poll because he was surrounded by the greatest team of all time and best coach in NFL history.

Sorry, but a "running offense" isn't a "run-ORIENTED offense".

The Packers had equally capable run and pass offenses.

Would they run it first, and if the other team couldn't stop them, kept running? Of course, that's smart football.

But if the run wasn't working, they had no problem winning with the pass.

And even though Starr's stats are more than great, he understood that a qb's job isn't racking up passing stats, it was leading his offense to score more points than the other team's offense.

Which he did better than anyone.

[Mr. Pink]

Stat wise, Starr doesn't even compete well in his own era.

Brodie, Unitas, Meredith, Frank Ryan, Jurgensen, Tarkenton all put up better numbers than Starr did.

And to counter Sparty's above point about scoring, in Starr's best year, 1966 the Packers scored 36 offensive TDs. In comparison the Cowboys, the team the Packers beat in the NFL title game, scored 51. The Chiefs, the team the Packers beat in the first Super Bowl, scored 50.

The Lombardi led Packers were built on running and defense with a QB who was good enough not to screw anything up.

[feldspar]

Stat wise, Starr doesn't even compete well in his own era.

Brodie, Unitas, Meredith, Frank Ryan, Jurgensen, Tarkenton all put up better numbers than Starr did.

And to counter Sparty's above point about scoring, in Starr's best year, 1966 the Packers scored 36 offensive TDs. In comparison the Cowboys, the team the Packers beat in the NFL title game, scored 51. The Chiefs, the team the Packers beat in the first Super Bowl, scored 50.

The Lombardi led Packers were built on running and defense with a QB who was good enough not to screw anything up.

Did you watch Bart Starr play? I didn't, either.

But what I do know is that you can't look at the stats and pretend to know what happened in ball-games. Cannot do it, particularly in the eras of your forefathers, when it was a completely different game.

[bleve]

Or, if you think Unitas was the best, a head injury must have prevented you from watching Otto Graham.

Like I said, there are lots of guys that were great in their own right, but if you wanted a winner, that was Bart Starr.

The napping comment was supposed to be comical, I didn't meant it to be an insult. I liked Bart Starr, he was true grit blue-collar get-r-done football. But Starr studied Unitas. It wasn't just the the stats, Johnny was the inventor/perfecter of the three-step drop, the five-step drop, he called his own plays, and perfected the concept of the timing route. In the '58 playoff classic, he orchestrated a last minute game tying drive, and in the overtime had essentially invented the two-minute drill.

These are the things I believe put him above all the other greats. We won't agree, but it's a good debate.

[Historian]

No Brian Cox?

I've seen a lot of players flip our fans off....Matt Cavanaugh, Bennie Blades, etc.

But that's fine. Call Cox 10B.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I liked Bart Starr, he was true grit blue-collar get-r-done football. But Starr studied Unitas. It wasn't just the the stats, Johnny was the inventor/perfecter of the three-step drop, the five-step drop, he called his own plays, and perfected the concept of the timing route.

Unitas is top five for sure, and any qb who followed him would have been an idiot not to study him.

But the question isn't who was the most prolific innovator, it's who ultimately PLAYED the position the best, and as a qb Starr was a stone cold killer who broke my heart too many times.

Was he flashy? No. Nothing he did would ever stand out as proclaiming him a generational player with a rocket arm and 4.4 speed.

He just did things as simply and efficiently as possible. He just wanted to beat you, not look like Superman.

And IMO, he beat people better than anyone who's ever played the position.

[WagonCircler]

Wow. Shiva hijacking a thread.

What year is this?

Kelly Holcomb still sucks.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Wow. Shiva hijacking a thread.

What year is this?

Kelly Holcomb still sucks.

And Bills fans are still idiots.

[Forward_Lateral]

And Bills fans are still idiots.
Go stick your dick in a light socket

[Night Train]

And Bills fans are still idiots.

and yet..you are here..

[feldspar]

and yet..you are here..

On a board where he looks down his nose at practically everyone...talk about idiotic

[CommissarSpartacus]

and yet..you are here..

Yes, I am. So what?

[CommissarSpartacus]

On a board where he looks down his nose at practically everyone...talk about idiotic

Ahh, do I look down my nose at you? Do I make you feel bad about yourself? The snowflake doesn't feel so special?

Boo ****ing hoo...

[feldspar]

Ahh, do I look down my nose at you? Do I make you feel bad about yourself? The snowflake doesn't feel so special?

Boo ****ing hoo...

What's wrong with you, exactly?