Bills Trade Sammy

[vanbillsfan]

As per Bills Twitter:

https://twitter.com/buffalobills/status/896050831824273409

[streetkings01]

WTF are these guys doing?

[DraftBoy]

What the hell?

[BertSquirtgum]

He gone. Sammy sucks. Good trade. I'll take Jordan Matthews for 16 games instead of Sammy Watkins for 10.

[sahlensguy]

We traded up for Sammy to help out our inept QB. Since the QB didn't work out, might as well get rid of Sammy.

Brilliant!

[DraftBoy]

Bills get CB EJ Gaines and a 2018 2nd Round pick for WR Sammy Watkins and 2018 6th Round pick.

[Forward_Lateral]

Is Gaines a top CB? I know nothing about the guy. I love the Darby trade. This one, I don't know. If Gaines is lockdown, then I don't mind it.

[EDS]

I am thoroughly unimpressed, even factoring in the Matthews trade.

[Novacane]

I am thoroughly unimpressed, even factoring in the Matthews trade.


If Sammy doesn't get hurt you'll be right. If he does you'll be happy.

[Mr. Pink]

Is Gaines a top CB? I know nothing about the guy. I love the Darby trade. This one, I don't know. If Gaines is lockdown, then I don't mind it.

Gaines is an average corner who is a sure tackler and can lay the lumber once in a while.

Think of a poor man's version of Winfield.

[DraftBoy]

Is Gaines a top CB? I know nothing about the guy. I love the Darby trade. This one, I don't know. If Gaines is lockdown, then I don't mind it.

He was good in 2014, had an injury in 2015, and was not good last year. He gave up the most TD's in the league last year (9) among CB's.

[WagonCircler]

The tank is on!!!!

Sam Darnold in 2018!

[Mr. Pink]

He was good in 2014, had an injury in 2015, and was not good last year. He gave up the most TD's in the league last year (9) among CB's.

I was trying to give a "positive" outlook of the guy and leave off the bad, and you go and ruin it in one post! FFS man! :rofl:

[Joe Fo Sho]

Bye, Felicia.

[DraftBoy]

I was trying to give a "positive" outlook of the guy and leave off the bad, and you go and ruin it in one post! FFS man! :rofl:

I think the positive right now would be the Bills have a potential six picks in the top 100 of next year's draft.

[HHURRICANE]

I'm sorry but we just gave away Sammy and Darby on the same day?

WTF?!?!?!?

[EDS]

I'm sorry but we just gave away Sammy and Darby on the same day?

WTF?!?!?!?

But, but, draft picks . . .

[Ed]

Keeping Tyrod Taylor for this season seems kind of pointless now.

[Buffalogic]

But, but, draft picks . . .what the **** is this? For real what just happened?

[Buffalogic]

We traded a wr and a corner for a wr and a corner? Wtf

[EDS]

what the **** is this? For real what just happened?

The Bills traded two young talented starting players, albeit players that lack consistency and at least one case consistent health, for draft picks and spare parts.

[Buffalogic]

Rams have woods and watkins

[DraftBoy]

How do you think Boldin feels right now?

[kishoph]

Is Gaines a top CB? I know nothing about the guy. I love the Darby trade. This one, I don't know. If Gaines is lockdown, then I don't mind it.

With a name like EJ, he should be a big hit in Buffalo.

[Mr. Pink]

How do you think Boldin feels right now?

I'm guessing he had no other options to begin with to agree to a contract at his age with a team that has a bad QB and zero playoff chances. Today changes none of that.

[Ed]

How do you think Boldin feels right now?
Probably not as pissed as Taylor and McCoy.

[JoeMama]

Sweet. We now have basically three slot receivers penciled in as starters.

Great plan! No need to go vertical in this league!

I thought Beane was supposed to be smart. Is there something in the water in Buffalo?

[Zero]

Im not a fan of the Watkins trade. I feel we could have gotten more value for him. Bills= not very smart


EDIT:

Jordan Matthews has talent and is capable of solid performances, but he'll drive you nuts with inopportune drops...

[Buffalogic]

Taylor and McCoy are as good as gone. We're loading up for the USC kid.

[JoeMama]

Looks like I can't make fun of the Jets for tanking this season now that we've adopted the same strategy.

[WagonCircler]

Sweet. We now have basically three slot receivers penciled in as starters.

Great plan! No need to go vertical in this league!

I thought Beane was supposed to be smart. Is there something in the water in Buffalo?

This team was never going to the playoffs this year, and they were definitely not going to re-sign Watkins. Beane is stockpiling pick to package for a real QB in next year's draft.

[JoeMama]

This team was never going to the playoffs this year, and they were definitely not going to re-sign Watkins. Beane is stockpiling pick to package for a real QB in next year's draft.

I get we weren't going to pay Watkins, but Jordan Matthews is the replacement? Guy's a slow slot receiver with knee problems. Sounds like we swapped one poison for another.

And if we draft that coveted franchise QB next season, who's he gonna throw to? Our next QB is going to be set up to fail from the get go.

Watkins aside, unloading Darby is indefensible. Especially when the scrub we're replacing him with is EJ Gaines. That's awful.

[psubills62]

Interesting timing. Definitely seem to be loading up on 2018 draft picks.

Guess they didn't even want to bother letting Watkins have a prove-it year.

[cookie G]

This team was never going to the playoffs this year, and they were definitely not going to re-sign Watkins. Beane is stockpiling pick to package for a real QB in next year's draft.

And when they use the no. 2's next year on Kyle Williams' replacement and a safety...don't be too disappointed.

[Skooby]

Sammy is not going to stay healthy in his career & we have no good outcome when he comes looking for a contract at the end of the year. His value is highest right now for us to recoup money & the Rams 2nd pick should be like a high first pick.

[WagonCircler]

And when they use the no. 2's next year on Kyle Williams' replacement and a safety...don't be too disappointed.

So, you don't think they're going to draft a QB? You think they're rolling with Peterman?

I don't.

[SpikedLemonade]

I fully endorse this move.

[jimmifli]

It's the kind of move we never actually do.

It's why I criticized not picking up his 5th year:
*If we aren't willing to commit to him what's the point in having him play out the year?
*Even if he has his best season yet, are we actually willing to make him the highest or near highest paid WR in the league (what he'll get in FA)?
*So we're left with either him having a ****ty year and then we try to resign him cheap or him having a great year and not be willing to overpay - both scenarios suck.

His value is perishable inventory. Like an airline seat, it's worth zero once the doors close. So hats off to them, they got value while they could.

[JoeMama]

Ugh.

I hate rebuilds.

Other teams don't have to go through this **** to build a winning roster.

[cookie G]

So, you don't think they're going to draft a QB? You think they're rolling with Peterman?

I don't.

I wish I did, but I've seen this movie way too many times over the years.

[JoeMama]

Brandon "Agent Smith" Beane better have one hell of a plan for 2018.

It wouldn't be the first time we've totally ****ed up a rebuild.

The locker room has to be rattled. They must know this whole season is a wash. Doubt we see much effort from these guys.

If I'm a veteran on this team, I demand a trade immediately.

[jimmifli]

Brandon "Agent Smith" Beane better have one hell of a plan for 2018.

It wouldn't be the first time we've totally ****ed up a rebuild.

The locker room has to be rattled. They must know this whole season is a wash. Doubt we see much effort from these guys.

If I'm a veteran on this team, I demand a trade immediately.

The only way the locker room isn't all ****ed up is if both these guys were like Mario, otherwise yeah there will be a lot of quitting going on.

[cookie G]

Ugh.

I hate rebuilds.

Other teams don't have to go through this **** to build a winning roster.

Its kinda gutless to be to be rebuilding or worse, tanking a 7-9 team that was 10th in the NFL in scoring and had an underperforming defense.

To me at least, it says they dont' have enough confidence in their coaching and FO to believe they can improve enough to get a few more wins out of a season.

People can hold off on the "we're really building to be SB champs" or other nonsense.

Teams with SB aspirations don't trade for EJ Gaines and Jordan Matthews.

[justasportsfan]

Use one of our 1st and either our 2nd or 3rd or both to move up the draft to grab our qb.

[JoeMama]

Its kinda gutless to be to be rebuilding or worse, tanking a 7-9 team that was 10th in the NFL in scoring and had an underperforming defense.

To me at least, it says they dont' have enough confidence in their coaching and FO to believe they can improve enough to get a few more wins out of a season.

People can hold off on the "we're really building to be SB champs" or other nonsense.

Teams with SB aspirations don't trade for EJ Gaines and Jordan Matthews.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to cookie G again."

Exactly.

I guess it's nice they're thinking ahead.

But I doubt they're doing it the right way. Most teams get over the hump without doing all this crazy **** a month before the season kicks off.

[WagonCircler]

To me at least, it says they dont' have enough confidence in their coaching and FO to believe they can improve enough to get a few more wins out of a season..

To me, it seems like they're getting rid of all the Whaley garbage. The types of players Whaley valued are very different from the types that Beane and McDermott claim to value.

Darby apparently wasn't a good fit for the system, and Watkins was a fire sale who was going away anyway.

I would have been totally opposed to a tank if Doug Whaley was still doing the rebuilding, but I think this crew deserves a shot at remaking the team as they see fit, even if the results don't come immediately.

[Mr. Pink]

Teams with SB aspirations don't trade for EJ Gaines and Jordan Matthews.

We'll say Gaines and Matthews are average NFL talents. Super Bowl teams trade for average NFL talents all the time.

Hell last year the Pats traded for Barkevious Mingo...this year they traded for Brandin Cooks, Kony Ealy and Dwayne Allen.

Now, the Bills are not a team with SB aspirations. They weren't yesterday and they sure aren't today. This was a 4 win team with that schedule yesterday and it's still a 4 win team today.

[Jan Reimers]

Well, at least we no longer have to worry about Sammy's injury problems, or Darby's sophomore slump.

Seems like we got roughly similar value in return (although Matthews doesn't have Sammy's upside), and we gained 2nd and 3rd round draft picks.

After sitting around for 17 years waiting for Godot - or some semblance of a playoff team - I'm happy with this seriously proactive approach.

[WagonCircler]

Brandon "Agent Smith" Beane.

I kind of see him more as Agent Dale Cooper from Twin Peaks.

[JoeMama]

I kind of see him more as Agent Dale Cooper from Twin Peaks.

Twin Peaks <3

I'd go the Dale Cooper route too if Beane had longer hair.

Still... Agent Smith...

http://www.panthers.com/assets/images/imported/CAR/photos/2015/06-June/150617_beane_inside.jpg
https://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/square_small/15/155745/2179159-agent_smith.jpg

[cookie G]

To me, it seems like they're getting rid of all the Whaley garbage. The types of players Whaley valued are very different from the types that Beane and McDermott claim to value.


And the types of players they value are different from the types Buddy Nix favored
who were different than the type that Jauron favored
who were different than the type that Donahoe favored
and so on and so on

Because they aren't "your type of players" really isn't a valid excuse.




Darby apparently wasn't a good fit for the system,

Ugh...the he doesn't fit the system, argument. As much as I didn't really like the pick at the time...he wasn't garbage.



and Watkins was a fire sale who was going away anyway.

He's a little different because of his impending free agency and injury issues. But they got a below average, oft injured CB and a 2nd chance lotto ticket in exchange. Not what I would call a shrewd deal.



I would have been totally opposed to a tank if Doug Whaley was still doing the rebuilding, but I think this crew deserves a shot at remaking the team as they see fit, even if the results don't come immediately.

They "deserve" a shot if they actually improve what they've been handed. Deserve implies they've earned something...and right now, they haven't earned anything.

[JoeMama]

If a system can't make use of a pretty good player, it's a bad system.

[Novacane]

Watkins aside, unloading Darby is indefensible. Especially when the scrub we're replacing him with is EJ Gaines. That's awful.



I wouldn't go that far. He's better than Gaines but how good is he really?

[JoeMama]

I wouldn't go that far. He's better than Gaines but how good is he really?

Well, we know Rex Ryan's defense was a joke.

My guess is Darby still has a higher ceiling than Gaines.

[Novacane]

Well, we know Rex Ryan's defense was a joke.

My guess is Darby still has a higher ceiling than Gaines.


True but that's the only D Darby's played in. He looked good 1 year and bad the next. Maybe he's not that good either.

[JoeMama]

True but that's the only D Darby's played in. He looked good 1 year and bad the next. Maybe he's not that good either.

I'm willing to err on the side Rex is the one who sucks. We know that for a fact. Darby's reputation is still up for grabs.

[Historian]

As far as Watkins goes, like Jimmi said, they were making the best of a bad situation they inherited.

My guess is the sheep and the Bills had talked in the off season, and they were probably waiting until they saw he could stop, cut and catch before they pulled the trigger.

Darby?

Who knows?

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Sorry, as a long suffering Royals fan, I am very cautious and wary of trading away the now for the future. I cannot remember how many times during that horrid 28 year drought we had that we were going in a new direction or going through a youth movement. Also, haven't the Pegs been doing this with the Sabres?

[WagonCircler]

Here's the real deal. If Sammy Watkins goes into this season and gets hurt again (as a Bill) his trade value is basically zero.

And the likelihood of Sammy Watkins getting hurt is a lead pipe cinch.

Getting rid of him now while he's still worth something was a smart play. Do I wish they could have gotten more for him? Sure I do. But I'm not positive that he's worth more, given his injury history.

People who are pissed off about this are confusing the Sammy Watkins that Doug Whaley sold us rather than the one who really exists.

[cookie G]

We'll say Gaines and Matthews are average NFL talents. Super Bowl teams trade for average NFL talents all the time.

Hell last year the Pats traded for Barkevious Mingo...this year they traded for Brandin Cooks, Kony Ealy and Dwayne Allen.

Now, the Bills are not a team with SB aspirations. They weren't yesterday and they sure aren't today. This was a 4 win team with that schedule yesterday and it's still a 4 win team today.

They gave up a 5th for Mingo.

Brandin Cooks is an emerging star, matthews was being demoted to either a 3rd, 4th or 5th wr or to the bench.

But you're right to an extent...teams like the Pats and the Ravens do at times trade for average talent...to become role players and fill in a gap.

so I'll put it this way...

Teams that are perrennial playoff teams who have been to the SB, or won it, might trade for an average player to plug a hole.

Teams willing to trade their better players for lesser talent, or in the hopes of a future by getting draft picks...

...are those who are in continuous rebuilding mode.

The Bills
The Browns
The Rams
and until recently, the Raiders and the Cards.

And ...after stockpiling their draft picks, the stockpiled picks usually end up being a disappointment, because they don't draft like the Pats or the Steelers.

And...the worst part of it is....the thing that everyone is hoping for, the franchise QB..usually doesn't happen.

Because with those teams, they usually make a 2nd rate attempt to get a QB, AFTER they've tried to fill the hole left by the guy they dumped. So they nab a Brandon Weeden or a Christian Hackenberg down the line, or wait until its a bad year for QBs...like EJ Manuel.

But because their talent evaluators aren't top level, they don't end up with a Derek Carr or a Russell Wilson.

So don't be disappointed when they draft a DT and a CB, or a safety, or a LB, or another WR with their 2 first round picks next year and then taking the 5th or 6th rated QB down the line.

I've seen this happen one too many times to believe different.

[cookie G]

Sorry, as a long suffering Royals fan, I am very cautious and wary of trading away the now for the future. I cannot remember how many times during that horrid 28 year drought we had that we were going in a new direction or going through a youth movement. Also, haven't the Pegs been doing this with the Sabres?

Yeah, I was going to bring that up...I gave up watching them after a while because I was tired of hearing about the hot minor league /draft prospects they were investing in.

[tomz]

I leave the country and they go crazy....

I guess I just think about the vaunted McDermott mentor tree. Not exactly guys who like the flash. Still, I think Sammy will be healthy and a beast going forwrd, back to his Clemson persona.

This seems like a commitment to a run-first, possession receiver approach on O. I see the Jordan Matthews route running approach but how is he getting off the line for the quick passing game? Boldin is a beast and they must like Zay quite a bit as well. Those first three passes to Sammy were for show, perhaps?

On 'D', McD always maintained that his ideal corner is also a strong tackler. Maybe he just didn't see that in Darby and felt we had enough at the position to do the zone thing. Gaines is reputed to be good in that regard. He really had high praise for last year's sixth rounder.

And we are loaded up to make moves next year.

If it were relevant, I would smell a 'Moneyball' argument but the current contracts are too small. Belichick traded Chandler Jones in a contract year. Unload if you don't plan to re-sign? What's Gaines contract situation? Didn't he just get re-upped?

[jimmifli]

We had a top 10 scoring offense with a talented D running a **** for brains scheme. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out.

But nope. We blow up the functioning unit again.

Watch as the D recovers and ends up in the top 10 while the offense slides back to bottom 10. But hey, future is so bright we gotta where shades.

[SpikedLemonade]

We had a top 10 scoring offense with a talented D running a **** for brains scheme. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out.

But nope. We blow up the functioning unit again.

Watch as the D recovers and ends up in the top 10 while the offense slides back to bottom 10. But hey, future is so bright we gotta where shades.

Jimmi, stop inhaling the forest fire fumes from BC.

This team was going NO where this year.

This is an attempt to rebuild the team rather than simply trying to sell tickets.

Please be patient.

[Turf]

Having had a chance to digest this trade and mull over the positives of both sides, I find myself against it. Sammy had talented hands and speed, and was a unique player. I think they gave up on him too soon. You just can't find that skill set. We lost speed and potential super star talent for grinders. I just can't get over the talent lost in this trade when all is said and done. I really thought this would be a breakout year for him.
Now if he gets hurt and goes down, or flops, then they did the right thing. It just bothers me though. We have a gaping hole at WR.

[swiper]

The tank is on!!!!

Sam Darnold in 2018!

How did the last Californis QB work out in Buffalo? He was one of your favorites.

- - - Updated - - -


Having had a chance to digest this trade and mull over the positives of both sides, I find myself against it. Sammy had talented hands and speed, and was a unique player. I think they gave up on him too soon. You just can't find that skill set. We lost speed and potential super star talent for grinders. I just can't get over the talent lost in this trade when all is said and done. I really thought this would be a breakout year for him.
Now if he gets hurt and goes down, or flops, then they did the right thing. It just bothers me though. We have a gaping hole at WR.

Beane is purging the dreadlocks.

[WagonCircler]

How did the last Californis QB work out in Buffalo?.

Tom Brady is from California. So is Elway.

Soooo.....

[GingerP]

Tom Brady is from California. So is Elway.

Soooo.....

... and Aaron Rogers, and Carson Palmer, and Alex Smith.

[Arm of Harm]

This trade was the result of mistakes made by Doug Whaley. Whaley/Nix drafted E.J. Manuel. Then Whaley went "all in" on E.J., using two first round picks to take Watkins. When E.J. didn't work out, Watkins became a very good receiver without a quarterback.

If you're Sammy Watkins, do you re-sign with the Bills, knowing that their run-first offense, and their QB's inability to notice open receivers, is going to hurt your numbers? Not to mention your paycheck? It doesn't make sense for a very good wide receiver, in the prime of his career, to re-up with a team that's still searching for its quarterback. Watkins would generate fewer receiving yards for us than he would for a team like the Las Vegas Raiders, catching passes from Derek Carr. So it would make sense for the Raiders to offer more to Watkins in free agency than we would, because he's worth more to them than he is to us. Bottom line: we were very unlikely to keep Watkins, once his contract had expired. That being the case, better to trade him and get some value out of him, than to let him leave via free agency at the end of the season.

The Bills will hopefully get their quarterback of the future--the right quarterback of the future--in next year's draft. Then you build around him by getting good, young WRs. It's a slower process than we'd like, but there's no helping that. Better a slow, disciplined process, than Tom Donahoe-like quick fixes.

[kishoph]

This trade was the result of mistakes made by Doug Whaley. Whaley/Nix drafted E.J. Manuel. Then Whaley went "all in" on E.J., using two first round picks to take Watkins. When E.J. didn't work out, Watkins became a very good receiver without a quarterback.

If you're Sammy Watkins, do you re-sign with the Bills, knowing that their run-first offense, and their QB's inability to notice open receivers, is going to hurt your numbers? Not to mention your paycheck? It doesn't make sense for a very good wide receiver, in the prime of his career, to re-up with a team that's still searching for its quarterback. Watkins would generate fewer receiving yards for us than he would for a team like the Las Vegas Raiders, catching passes from Derek Carr. So it would make sense for the Raiders to offer more to Watkins in free agency than we would, because he's worth more to them than he is to us. Bottom line: we were very unlikely to keep Watkins, once his contract had expired. That being the case, better to trade him and get some value out of him, than to let him leave via free agency at the end of the season.

\

This is the way I have to look at the trade. Sammy was not going to resign with the Bills, especially if Taylor would remain as QB. In the 20 games that Watkins has played with Taylor, he has had 2 games where he received 10 or more targets. Last season the 1 game was the overtime game vs. Miami (10 tgts) where he had 2 targets in OT. His second highest targeted game was the finale (9 tgts), where Taylor didn't play. In 2014 with Orton, Watkins had 5 games where he received double digit targets. Jordan Mathews had 7 games last season where he was targeted 10 or more times. He better get used to getting 3-5 targets a game now.
There is no way, no how that I think Mathews is a comparable replacement to Watkins, but I guess it's better than watching Watkins leave without getting anything in return.

[Skooby]

This is the way I have to look at the trade. Sammy was not going to resign with the Bills, especially if Taylor would remain as QB. In the 20 games that Watkins has played with Taylor, he has had 2 games where he received 10 or more targets. Last season the 1 game was the overtime game vs. Miami (10 tgts) where he had 2 targets in OT. His second highest targeted game was the finale (9 tgts), where Taylor didn't play. In 2014 with Orton, Watkins had 5 games where he received double digit targets. Jordan Mathews had 7 games last season where he was targeted 10 or more times. He better get used to getting 3-5 targets a game now.
There is no way, no how that I think Mathews is a comparable replacement to Watkins, but I guess it's better than watching Watkins leave without getting anything in return.

People also forget that the Bills medical staff might question whether or not Sammy can hold up health wise an entire season. If the answer is almost assuredly no way & you know the guy is going to want a truckload of money next year, now was the only real time to really get whatever value you can out of him. Next season he'd leave and we'd get nothing, we already passed on his option so it's not like he owes us something.

Looking back, 2 first round picks for him was about as stupid as a move as we could of made. Wish it could of turned out better but it didn't, off to the 2018 draft picking top 5.

[YardRat]

The way I'm looking at it is this is what the team was going to look like anyway if (when?) Sammy got hurt or hobbled so what the hell, we got a bonus pick for next year.

[SpikedLemonade]

I love this move!