Can someone explain to me why we let Gillislee go to the Pats?

[CommissarSpartacus]

I haven't been paying much attention this year, but one of the things that caught my eye was Gillislee leaving.

The guy is terrific and played great with the Bills.

I have him on my FF team.

Don't you have to ask yourself "what did we just do?" when BB and the Pats happily pick up guys we let go?

How many SBs has Belichick won?

How many have we won?

[cookie G]

Didn't fit our system...I guess.

That's used quite a bit.

[kingJofNYC]

JUST TRUST THE PROCESS

Easy answer is that we're an incompetent organization top to bottom.

[Goobylal]

The Bills will find his replacement. And Gillislee is basically a replacement for Blount.

[Thurmal]

The astonishing thing is that it was the SAME EXACT SITUATION with Hogan the year before. A normal, rational person who watched any NFL football at all would've learned their lesson and tendered Gillislee (the most efficient RB in the NFL last year) with a 2nd round pick. The Bills did not learn that lesson. I'm not a big conspiracy theorist, but -- I tell ya -- sometimes I think this team is trying to be awful on purpose.

[Skooby]

We have a running QB that can't pass over the middle in a pocket passer offensive scheme, it's crazy.

[Turf]

His name is Rainman, aka Whaley.

[OpIv37]

I got destroyed on this board when I criticized the move at the time...

[kingJofNYC]

Hogan may be understandable, Gilly is not. It was easy to protect Gilly and his numbers were excellent in short yardage, good in pass pro, and found the end zone. No excuse, we all knew it was a bad move, way worse than Hogan. Hogan has done nothing tonight, Gilly working the load though.

[justasportsfan]

Gillelee is a back up here. Your don't pay a back up what the Pats paid him.

[OpIv37]

Gillelee is a back up here. Your don't pay a back up what the Pats paid him.

Yeah, it's so much better going into the season with no legit backup to McCoy over $300k.

[Mad Max]

How many ex-Bills have the Pats put super bowl rings on?

Antowain Smith
Chris Hogan
Alan Branch

This year probably adds
Stephon Gilmore
Mike Gillislee

How about Al Michaels trolling the Bills. Patriots have better Bills than the Bills!

[Goobylal]

Yeah, it's so much better going into the season with no legit backup to McCoy over $300k.

Said you last year.

[justasportsfan]

I got destroyed on this board when I criticized the move at the time...you're arguing with yourself again. In thought rbs are a dime a dozen, if we matched what NE paid him, how much would we have $ tied on that position? Gillislee is a cheap no.1 rb for the Pats but would've been an expensive no.2 here and you'd be whining if we paid a back up rb what NE pays him

[OpIv37]

Said you last year.

What the hell are you talking about?

[justasportsfan]

Yeah, it's so much better going into the season with no legit backup to McCoy over $300k.

You're back to your self contradictory argument. Bills are damned if they do, damned if they don't. You'll cry eitherways

[OpIv37]

you're arguing with yourself again. In thought rbs are a dime a dozen, if we matched what NE paid him, how much would we have $ tied on that position? Gillislee is a cheap no.1 rb for the Pats but would've been an expensive no.2 here and you'd be whining if we paid a back up rb what NE pays him

What the **** are you talking about? You're trying to make it about me so you can defend the organization for not having a legit backup over $300k. And once again, you are attempting to make an argument based on your assumption of how someone else would have reacted in a hypothetical situation that never actually occurred.

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You're back to your self contradictory argument. Bills are damned if they do, damned if they don't. You'll cry eitherways

And once again, you are attempting to make an argument based on your assumption of how someone else would have reacted in a hypothetical situation that never actually occurred.

[Joe Fo Sho]

You guys act like there's not dozens of other running backs that can do exactly what Gillislee is doing for the Pats. The guy is good, but he's not special.

[Mr. Pink]

What Gillislee does in NE will be way beyond anything he could do here.

He's gonna end up with 15+ TDs there, do you think he'd even have any chance of that here?

[OpIv37]

You guys act like there's not dozens of other running backs that can do exactly what Gillislee is doing for the Pats. The guy is good, but he's not special.

Yeah, the problem is none of them are on our roster with the exception of McCoy, who isn't going to be able to carry the load by himself. You guys act like it's perfectly acceptable for the Bills to let players walk over money and fail to replace them with anyone equal or better.

This has been a recurring theme in the last 20 years of futility for the Bills: they let guys walk over money, and often, they're right- guys go other places and underperform for the money they get. The part where they consistently fail- and have failed yet again- is the equal or better replacement. It's one thing to not overpay a guy. It's another thing to let talent walk and do nothing about it, over and over and over and over and over....

[justasportsfan]

What the **** are you talking about? You're trying to make it about me so you can defend the organization for not having a legit backup over $300k. And once again, you are attempting to make an argument based on your assumption of how someone else would have reacted in a hypothetical situation that never actually occurred.

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And once again, you are attempting to make an argument based on your assumption of how someone else would have reacted in a hypothetical situation that never actually occurred.
Of course I am arguing your posts or your the way you think therefore it is about you. Your flawed logic is about you.

It's a safe assumption when I point out your whiny habits that are self contradictory.

You whine when the bills do something that the whole league doesn't do and say they think they are smarter than everyone else. Well they didn't pay a back up 5 million or whatever the Pats paid Gilliislee. They would be the ONLY ONE in the league to pay a back up that much and then you'd be whining thay think they are smarter than everyone else.

[OpIv37]

Of course I am arguing your posts or your the way you think therefore it is about you. Your flawed logic is about you.

It's a safe assumption when I point out your whiny habits that are self contradictory.

You whine when the bills do something that the whole league doesn't do and say they think they are smarter than everyone else. Well they didn't pay a back up 5 million or whatever the Pats paid Gilliislee. They would be the ONLY ONE in the league to pay a back up that much and then you'd be whining thay think they are smarter than everyone else.

And once again you are trying to make it about me rather than the fact that our only legit backup to McCoy is currently scoring touchdowns for the Patriots.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Are the Bills actually trying to lose this year?

The odds are low that McCoy plays every game, so why not have a back up that's actuallytalented?

[Mr. Pink]

Are the Bills actually trying to lose this year?

The odds are low that McCoy plays every game, so why not have a back up that's actuallytalented?

Because running the football doesn't matter in today's NFL.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Yeah, the problem is none of them are on our roster with the exception of McCoy, who isn't going to be able to carry the load by himself. You guys act like it's perfectly acceptable for the Bills to let players walk over money and fail to replace them with anyone equal or better.

This has been a recurring theme in the last 20 years of futility for the Bills: they let guys walk over money, and often, they're right- guys go other places and underperform for the money they get. The part where they consistently fail- and have failed yet again- is the equal or better replacement. It's one thing to not overpay a guy. It's another thing to let talent walk and do nothing about it, over and over and over and over and over....

He was a backup running back for christ's sake, a backup running back. If he goes to the Jaguars we never hear from him again.

[Goobylal]

What the hell are you talking about?

You cried about the Bills losing Karlos and who would replace him. They found someone. They'll find someone again.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Of course I am arguing your posts or your the way you think therefore it is about you. Your flawed logic is about you.

It's a safe assumption when I point out your whiny habits that are self contradictory.

You whine when the bills do something that the whole league doesn't do and say they think they are smarter than everyone else. Well they didn't pay a back up 5 million or whatever the Pats paid Gilliislee. They would be the ONLY ONE in the league to pay a back up that much and then you'd be whining thay think they are smarter than everyone else.

The Pats ARE smarter than everyone else.

They wanted Gillislee. Our brain trust didnt.

Think we put one over on them?

"Stupid Pats, Har Har har!"?

[CommissarSpartacus]

Because running the football doesn't matter in today's NFL.

Apparently Belichick thinks it matters...

- - - Updated - - -


He was a backup running back for christ's sake, a backup running back. If he goes to the Jaguars we never hear from him again.

Stupid Belichick!

[OpIv37]

He was a backup running back for christ's sake, a backup running back. If he goes to the Jaguars we never hear from him again.

And once again you are missing the point: who do we currently have on the roster at backup RB that is equal or better? Answer: no one.

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You cried about the Bills losing Karlos and who would replace him. They found someone. They'll find someone again.
Right, because clearly this organization excels at finding talent.

Even a blind fly lands on **** sometimes.

[Goobylal]

Right, because clearly this organization excels at finding talent.

Even a blind fly lands on **** sometimes.

Been doing it at the backup RB position for 4 years now.

[OpIv37]

The Pats ARE smarter than everyone else.

They wanted Gillislee. Our brain trust didnt.

Think we put one over on them?

"Stupid Pats, Har Har har!"?

I'm reporting this post.

Calling anything associated with the Bills' FO a "brain trust" is highly offensive to people with brains.

[OpIv37]

Been doing it at the backup RB position for 4 years now.

ever hear the expression "if it ain't broke, don't fix it?"

When we let a guy who plays well walk over chump change, it creates yet another hole on a team that always has far too many holes.

[Goobylal]

ever hear the expression "if it ain't broke, don't fix it?"

When we let a guy who plays well walk over chump change, it creates yet another hole on a team that always has far too many holes.

Paying a guy $4M/year to be a backup isn't exactly wise use of cap dollars.

[OpIv37]

Paying a guy $4M/year to be a backup isn't exactly wise use of cap dollars.

Yeah we should just stuff it in Ralph Wilson's mattress like we used to. That always worked out so well for us.

[Goobylal]

And as I write this, Gilmore just got burned for a 75 yard TD.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Apparently Belichick thinks it matters...

Since 2011, Belichick has paid a running back top 32 money exactly one time...this year to Gillislee and he's 15th in the league.

Man, these Patriot prime time games really bring out the dumb dumbs.

[streetkings01]

Doug Whaley

[Mad Max]

And as I write this, Gilmore just got burned for a 75 yard TD.
Hahah yep. I was sad to see Darby go...Gilmore got roasted like that too often for me to miss.

[Joe Fo Sho]

And as I write this, Gilmore just got burned for a 75 yard TD.

I knew it felt familiar.

[Joe Fo Sho]

And once again you are missing the point: who do we currently have on the roster at backup RB that is equal or better? Answer: no one.

By this logic, you should be upset that we don't sign every top free agent in the NFL because they are better than someone on our roster. That's not how the NFL works and you know it.

[Ed]

If you had the option right now to trade the extra 5th round pick we got from the Pats and use about $4 mil of cap space per year over the next couple years to get Gilissee back, would you make that move? Why? We're a team going nowhere and you'd rather have less cap space and draft picks for a backup RB on a team that everyone acknowledges isn't going to win more than 5-6 games? Once again, why?

[OpIv37]

And as I write this, Gilmore just got burned for a 75 yard TD.

I was never a fan of Gilmore and I'm glad we didn't pay him. But again, who did we add that is equal or better? We ditched Darby for EJ Gaines and replaced Gilmore with a rookie- and it's a position with a notoriously high learning curve.

[GreedoII]

JUST TRUST THE PROCESS

Easy answer is that we're an incompetent organization top to bottom.

lol...wait he has 2 1yd td's and 12 carries for 44 yds...yeah he's dominating all right. LOL.....bunch of morons in here...stop reading twitter and listening to Al Michaels of all people.

[Mr. Pink]

If you had the option right now to trade the extra 5th round pick we got from the Pats and use about $4 mil of cap space per year over the next couple years to get Gilissee back, would you make that move? Why? We're a team going nowhere and you'd rather have less cap space and draft picks for a backup RB on a team that everyone acknowledges isn't going to win more than 5-6 games? Once again, why?

No. I also wouldn't pay whatever idiotic amount of money the Bills are paying McCoy either.

I already covered the why. Running the football doesn't win you football games. If anyone hasn't figured that out yet, I don't know what to tell them. The past 2 seasons should be a slap in the face to everyone who thinks 1970s style football still wins today. The Bills were the best running team the past 2 seasons and it got them absolutely nowhere.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I was never a fan of Gilmore and I'm glad we didn't pay him. But again, who did we add that is equal or better? We ditched Darby for EJ Gaines and replaced Gilmore with a rookie- and it's a position with a notoriously high learning curve.

You really are advocating for paying Stephon Gilmore $13MM per season? On this team?? C'mon, guy.

[OpIv37]

You really are advocating for paying Stephon Gilmore $13MM per season? On this team?? C'mon, guy.

No. I never liked Gilmore.

I'm advocating for an FO that's competent enough to find an equal or better replacement.

[Joe Fo Sho]

No. I never liked Gilmore.

I'm advocating for an FO that's competent enough to find an equal or better replacement.

We had his replacement, but we just traded him away. Then Darby's replacement should have been White.

Clearly Beane is not interested in paying cornerbacks, he was in the front office of the Panthers when they let Norman walk. I kind of agree with him. I don't like to pay running backs or cornerbacks. They're not important enough to warrant significant money. Pay the guys that get to the QB, the guys that protect the QB, and the QB. First, get a QB though.

[Mr. Pink]

Uh oh, time for Gillislee to get another TD for people in this thread to go nuts over!

[Goobylal]

Hahah yep. I was sad to see Darby go...Gilmore got roasted like that too often for me to miss.

I loved Darby as a rookie. Last year he was a gigantic disappointment for me. I wasn't sorry to see him go because there was no reason for him to suck playing in the same system as his rookie year, and he isn't suited for the Bills' defensive system now.


I was never a fan of Gilmore and I'm glad we didn't pay him. But again, who did we add that is equal or better? We ditched Darby for EJ Gaines and replaced Gilmore with a rookie- and it's a position with a notoriously high learning curve.

White will replace Gilmore. And Gaines will replace Darby. And the pass rush will help both.

[Skooby]

I was never a fan of Gilmore and I'm glad we didn't pay him. But again, who did we add that is equal or better? We ditched Darby for EJ Gaines and replaced Gilmore with a rookie- and it's a position with a notoriously high learning curve.

Unless of course you're Darby, then it's rookie learning curve.

- - - Updated - - -


I was never a fan of Gilmore and I'm glad we didn't pay him. But again, who did we add that is equal or better? We ditched Darby for EJ Gaines and replaced Gilmore with a rookie- and it's a position with a notoriously high learning curve.

Unless of course you're Darby, then it's rookie learning curve.

- - - Updated - - -


I was never a fan of Gilmore and I'm glad we didn't pay him. But again, who did we add that is equal or better? We ditched Darby for EJ Gaines and replaced Gilmore with a rookie- and it's a position with a notoriously high learning curve.

Unless of course you're Darby, then it's rookie learning curve.

[OpIv37]

We had his replacement, but we just traded him away. Then Darby's replacement should have been White.

Clearly Beane is not interested in paying cornerbacks, he was in the front office of the Panthers when they let Norman walk. I kind of agree with him. I don't like to pay running backs or cornerbacks. They're not important enough to warrant significant money. Pay the guys that get to the QB, the guys that protect the QB, and the QB. First, get a QB though.
Point is, we are less talented at CB than we were last year. Less talented at RB than we were last year. You can argue in favor of not overpaying guys- that's pretty easy. But we were a 7-9 team that got LESS talented. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out where this goes...

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Unless of course you're Darby, then it's rookie learning curve.

- - - Updated - - -



Unless of course you're Darby, then it's rookie learning curve.

- - - Updated - - -



Unless of course you're Darby, then it's rookie learning curve.
Ah, BZ's mantra. When all else fails, use the exception to prove the rule....

[GreedoII]

Uh oh, time for Gillislee to get another TD for people in this thread to go nuts over!

yeah real impressive falling in the end zone 3 times after pass interference calls...sheesh this stupid manic board has no idea what they even watching...

[Mr. Pink]

yeah real impressive falling in the end zone 3 times after pass interference calls...sheesh this stupid manic board has no idea what they even watching...

But but but he's on pace for 48 TDs!

[Joe Fo Sho]

Point is, we are less talented at CB than we were last year. Less talented at RB than we were last year. You can argue in favor of not overpaying guys- that's pretty easy. But we were a 7-9 team that got LESS talented. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out where this goes...

If you're trying to argue that the Bills are bad, I'm not going to disagree. We suck. There are however, dozens of better examples of why other than letting our backup running back walk for $4MM or whatever it was.

[Joe Fo Sho]

But but but he's on pace for 48 TDs!

My fantasy team is going to be unstoppable.

[Mr. Pink]

My fantasy team is going to be unstoppable.

I think the Chiefs should just throw fly patterns to Tyreek Hill all game long, then my team would be unstoppable.

[cookie G]

Are the Bills actually trying to lose this year?


Yes, we are..but nobody is supposed to know that.

BTW..the Chiefs and Bills were in the same situation at the end of 2012. Well..they were worse.

They nabbed Andy Reid...and have had 3 11 win seasons and a 9 win season.

We're on out 3rd coach, (all hand picked by nonfootball people);
4th defensive scheme
3rd offensive scheme

and 3rd rebuild.

They'll be contending for another division championship, we'll be fighting for a top 5 draft pick.

[OpIv37]

If you're trying to argue that the Bills are bad, I'm not going to disagree. We suck. There are however, dozens of better examples of why other than letting our backup running back walk for $4MM or whatever it was.

Tell me that when McCoy gets injured and our backups combine for 18 yards on 21 carries.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Tell me that when McCoy gets injured and our backups combine for 18 yards on 21 carries.

Averaging less than 1 yard per carry is not the running backs fault unless I'm the one carrying the rock.

[Mr. Pink]

uh oh....

They're getting close to Gillislee TD range!

Never mind, White took a big lose. Safe for now!

[justasportsfan]

And once again you are trying to make it about me rather than the fact that our only legit backup to McCoy is currently scoring touchdowns for the Patriots.

But why have you kept saying in the past that running backs grow on trees so to speak and then now that we are not paying 5 million to a back up all of a sudden its problem?

[OpIv37]

But why have you kept saying in the past that running backs grow on trees so to speak and then now that we are not paying 5 million to a back up all of a sudden its problem?

Ok- don't pay the back up that much but replace him with someone equal or better.

Oops, the FO failed again.

You can try to make this about me all you want, but no matter what you or I say, this was a 7-9 team that got LESS talented.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Ok- don't pay the back up that much but replace him with someone equal or better.

Oops, the FO failed again.

You can try to make this about me all you want, but no matter what you or I say, this was a 7-9 team that got LESS talented.

To be fair, you made it about you on the 8th post of this thread.


I got destroyed on this board when I criticized the move at the time...

[Goobylal]

Ok- don't pay the back up that much but replace him with someone equal or better.

Oops, the FO failed again.

It's great that you can make that determination before the Bill have even played a game yet. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Pink]

BTW...

Gillislee is failing in short yardage.

2 4th and inches, neither time he got the first down.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Gillislee couldn't even get a single yard on that 4th down. What an absolute piece of garbage he is.

[Goobylal]

Yup.

[Joe Fo Sho]

BTW...

Gillislee is failing in short yardage.

2 4th and inches, neither time he got the first down.

Any one of our backups could have got those first downs.

[Mr. Pink]

Any one of our backups could have got those first downs.

Tolbert gets both of them.

[OpIv37]

It's great that you can make that determination before the Bill have even played a game yet. :rolleyes:

Yeah, clearly pessimism about the Bills before the games actually started has NEVER proven to be apt....

[justasportsfan]

Ok- don't pay the back up that much but replace him with someone equal or better.

Oops, the FO failed again.

You can try to make this about me all you want, but no matter what you or I say, this was a 7-9 team that got LESS talented.
Yes it's about you and your flawed logic. You argue with yourself.
How do you know we haven't replaced Gillisslee. Let's wait and see if his numbers from last year isn't regained by another player we have. We haven't even played yet.

Which FO are you blaming anyways? Beane, who wasn't here? Whaley, who found Gillislee to begin with? Wait, it's Russ fault?

[Goobylal]

Yeah, clearly pessimism about the Bills before the games actually started has NEVER proven to be apt....

Why do you even watch the Bills?

[justasportsfan]

Yeah, clearly pessimism about the Bills before the games actually started has NEVER proven to be apt....

Actually they've been more than apt in the running game the last 2 years. No.1 last year

[Mr. Pink]

Backup RB has always been a Buffalo Bills fan rallying cry player.

Kenneth Davis, Willis McGahee. Fred Jackson. Karlos Williams. Mike Gillislee.

They come they go, they get replaced by someone else who people around here can't live without until the next guy shows up.

[Bill Cody]

You guys act like there's not dozens of other running backs that can do exactly what Gillislee is doing for the Pats. The guy is good, but he's not special.

Ok. So this was just regular Bills dumb and not special Bills dumb?
Because it was dumb. If we tendered him at the 2nd round level NE never signs him and he gets a raise but not huge. Or you just match. We had the cap space. We've been over this.

[Goobylal]

Ok. So this was just regular Bills dumb and not special Bills dumb?
Because it was dumb. If we tendered him at the 2nd round level NE never signs him and he gets a raise but not huge. Or you just match. We had the cap space. We've been over this.

Yes we have. They chose not to match. And so far he's failed to convert 2 critical 4th downs.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Ok. So this was just regular Bills dumb and not special Bills dumb?
Because it was dumb. If we tendered him at the 2nd round level NE never signs him and he gets a raise but not huge. Or you just match. We had the cap space. We've been over this.

He was our backup running back, right?

[CommissarSpartacus]

Well, I can see why I avoided paying attention.

I keep making the mistake of forgetting this is the Bills and the Bills fanbase we're talking about here.

I've been a member at the range since 2001 and here since 2003, and in EVERY SINGLE SEASON there's been a significant section of the fan base that supported the moves and decisions of the Bills front office and the coaches they hired.

And in those years, WE DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE PLAYOFFS ONCE.

But we still have all those wanna be GMs willing to go to war for the current regime.

Sad...

[Goobylal]

Great game by Gillislee. Two failed 4th and inches. But hey, he got those TD's when he had huge holes! And nice job getting toasted by Gilmore.

[OpIv37]

Great game by Gillislee. Two failed 4th and inches. But hey, he got those TD's when he had huge holes! And nice job getting toasted by Gilmore.

Yeah, I mean, two players and one game clearly makes up for the 5 SB's they've won since we've last made the playoffs.

[Goobylal]

Yeah, I mean, two players and one game clearly makes up for the 5 SB's they've won since we've last made the playoffs.

Holy non-sequitur Batman! The topic was letting Gillislee (and Gilmore) leave to go to the Cheaters. Throw in Hogan, another JAG.

[OpIv37]

Holy non-sequitur Batman! The topic was letting Gillislee (and Gilmore) leave to go to the Cheaters. Throw in Hogan, another JAG.
Well, if you want to go that route- it's ONE GAME and Gilleslie did have THREE touchdowns.

[Goobylal]

Well, if you want to go that route- it's ONE GAME and Gilleslie did have THREE touchdowns.

BFD. Great for his fantasy football stats.

[justasportsfan]

Well, if you want to go that route- it's ONE GAME and Gilleslie did have THREE touchdowns.

With Brady at QB , Tolbert probably could've done that

[Goobylal]

With Brady at QB , Tolbert probably could've done that

A JAG like Blount did that last year. MG was essentially a higher-paid Blount. Except they lost, not in small part to his failure to convert 4th downs, which was supposed to be his forte.

[cookie G]

Well, I can see why I avoided paying attention.

I keep making the mistake of forgetting this is the Bills and the Bills fanbase we're talking about here.

I've been a member at the range since 2001 and here since 2003, and in EVERY SINGLE SEASON there's been a significant section of the fan base that supported the moves and decisions of the Bills front office and the coaches they hired.

And in those years, WE DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE PLAYOFFS ONCE.

But we still have all those wanna be GMs willing to go to war for the current regime.

Sad...

you might not want to pay attention for a few years...I don't think its going to be pretty.


The owners go off on their own and hire a first time head coach...not a bad coordinator, but 0 experience as a HC.

But the problem is..he hires his best buddy as GM. A guy who carried the title of Asst. GM..but has little to no player evaluation experience. (he was a capologist and coffee boy for the Panthers GM)

And worse, he can't go more than 2 sentences without using the phrase, "buying in".

So after tanking...they're plan is to hit on each draft choice for the nexst few years.

They're already talking about trading off talent for docile Stepford Wives who buy into the plan...whatever that plan is.

its going ot be Jauron-Levy II, I think...

just with younger front office people.

People are acting like they hired Ron Wolf and Belichick.

[WagonCircler]

I haven't been paying much attention this year, but one of the things that caught my eye was Gillislee leaving.

The guy is terrific and played great with the Bills.

I have him on my FF team.

Don't you have to ask yourself "what did we just do?" when BB and the Pats happily pick up guys we let go?

How many SBs has Belichick won?

How many have we won?

Oh, I can.

Doug Whaley passed out absurd contacts to players like Marcel Dareus and LeSean McCoy (who is good, but WAY overpaid).

Then, when it came time to keep a FA like Gillislee, the Bills couldn't pay what the Pats could.

Now, just imagine that. The team that has won multiple and recent Super Bowls has more money to spend than the team that hasn't played in a playoff game in 17 years.

Thanks, Doug Whaley!

[YardRat]

#1--Most posters, probably close to unanimously, wanted to keep Gillislee if they had their druthers, so let's not re-write history so quickly and pretend most didn't want him here.

#2--Most of those posters took the stance that the team made a bad move by not tendering him to a higher offer.

#3--Many thought matching was too much money for a back-up, and absolutely NOBODY stated that Gillie was going to go to New England and be the #1 guy.

#4--It's been one game, let's see how it plays out for the rest of the season before tossing around make-believe "I told you so"s.

Personally, if I could trade Gillislee's performance last nite for the same end result every week, I'd do it in a second.

[CommissarSpartacus]

#1--Most posters, probably close to unanimously, wanted to keep Gillislee if they had their druthers, so let's not re-write history so quickly and pretend most didn't want him here.

I was serious when I asked the question.

I haven't paid attention and assumed we didn't keep Gillislee because he was asking for outrageous money or something, but $6 million for 2 years is PEANUTS for a guy with Gillislee's talent.

Not only that, but who expects McCoy to survive the season without significant time off? If he goes down, who do we have to replace him?

[Historian]

EVERY SINGLE SEASON there's been a significant section of the fan base that supported the moves and decisions of the Bills front office and the coaches they hired.
And in those years, WE DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE PLAYOFFS ONCE.
But we still have all those wanna be GMs willing to go to war for the current regime.


Here's my problem, and it kind of goes along with what Cookie was saying.

The tri and bi-annual house cleaning is what has killed this franchise, and any hope that I had for it.

Every time there is a change in management, or coaching, it means a roster overhaul, to rid ourselves of the stench of the previous regime.

This current one is the most ridiculous one I have ever seen.

At some point, you need to keep a core of players, if for nothing, some consistency in leadership, as opposed to dealing guys away who "don't fit the our system".

Systems can only take you so far. Eventually, you need to have some players that can make plays, irregardless of whatever system you are running.

We saw this with Donahoe....Whaley...and now these guys.

In the meantime, the meter has been running for SEVENTEEN YEARS. This, in the era of free agency.

We even change ownership, and NOTHING changes.

This is not a terribly difficult game. The key to offense is blocking, the key to defense is tackling.

We have had players here that have gone on to greater things, simply by leaving this organization.

I don't think the problem is the players.

The problem, IMHO, are the egos that keep getting hired at 1BD.

And they're laughing all the way to the bank.

[Bill Cody]

He was our backup running back, right?

Bro all we have on this team are running backs. When you have a runner as a QB he better have more than just 1 aging vet to hand off. McCoy is not going to be here much longer

[Goobylal]

Here's my problem, and it kind of goes along with what Cookie was saying.

The tri and bi-annual house cleaning is what has killed this franchise, and any hope that I had for it.

Every time there is a change in management, or coaching, it means a roster overhaul, to rid ourselves of the stench of the previous regime.

This current one is the most ridiculous one I have ever seen.

At some point, you need to keep a core of players, if for nothing, some consistency in leadership, as opposed to dealing guys away who "don't fit the our system".

Systems can only take you so far. Eventually, you need to have some players that can make plays, irregardless of whatever system you are running.

We saw this with Donahoe....Whaley...and now these guys.

In the meantime, the meter has been running for SEVENTEEN YEARS. This, in the era of free agency.

We even change ownership, and NOTHING changes.

This is not a terribly difficult game. The key to offense is blocking, the key to defense is tackling.

We have had players here that have gone on to greater things, simply by leaving this organization.

I don't think the problem is the players.

The problem, IMHO, are the egos that keep getting hired at 1BD.

And they're laughing all the way to the bank.

I had no problem with who they let go. Gilmore got way overpaid, as did Woods. Sammy was going to demand big money after the season and would never have produced what he needed to in Buffalo to justify paying him $12+M/year. MG is a backup RB who will be easily replaced. And Darby flat-out sucked last year despite being in the same system. The only move I question is paying Eric Wood $8M/year for another 2 seasons. WTF?!

[cookie G]

Here's my problem, and it kind of goes along with what Cookie was saying.

The tri and bi-annual house cleaning is what has killed this franchise, and any hope that I had for it.

Every time there is a change in management, or coaching, it means a roster overhaul, to rid ourselves of the stench of the previous regime.

This current one is the most ridiculous one I have ever seen.

At some point, you need to keep a core of players, if for nothing, some consistency in leadership, as opposed to dealing guys away who "don't fit the our system".

Systems can only take you so far. Eventually, you need to have some players that can make plays, irregardless of whatever system you are running.

We saw this with Donahoe....Whaley...and now these guys.

In the meantime, the meter has been running for SEVENTEEN YEARS. This, in the era of free agency.

We even change ownership, and NOTHING changes.

This is not a terribly difficult game. The key to offense is blocking, the key to defense is tackling.

We have had players here that have gone on to greater things, simply by leaving this organization.

I don't think the problem is the players.

The problem, IMHO, are the egos that keep getting hired at 1BD.

And they're laughing all the way to the bank.


I think you nailed it, especially the ego part.

[kishoph]

Bro all we have on this team are running backs. When you have a runner as a QB he better have more than just 1 aging vet to hand off. McCoy is not going to be here much longer

You also have to wonder how much of the load can McCoy handle, in his 2 years as a Bill he has averaged 16 carries per game. Pushing McCoy for more could end up hurting more than helping. If the Bills are going to have to pass more with Taylor, that's playing into the opposing defenses hands IMO.

[Mr. Pink]

There is only one key.

Getting the right QB.

That's it. That's all there is in today's NFL. You get the right QB and everything else is interchangeable parts. You don't get the QB and you get the Bills, the Browns, the Jaguars.

There is no magical continuity, there is no magical system, there is no magical core.

[Goobylal]

There is only one key.

Getting the right QB.

That's it. That's all there is in today's NFL. You get the right QB and everything else is interchangeable parts. You don't get the QB and you get the Bills, the Browns, the Jaguars.

There is no magical continuity, there is no magical system, there is no magical core.

Exactly. Look at the head Cheater. He was a failure in Cleveland and even had a losing record with Bledsoe.

[swiper]

Here's my problem, and it kind of goes along with what Cookie was saying.

The tri and bi-annual house cleaning is what has killed this franchise, and any hope that I had for it.

Every time there is a change in management, or coaching, it means a roster overhaul, to rid ourselves of the stench of the previous regime.

This current one is the most ridiculous one I have ever seen.

At some point, you need to keep a core of players, if for nothing, some consistency in leadership, as opposed to dealing guys away who "don't fit the our system".

Systems can only take you so far. Eventually, you need to have some players that can make plays, irregardless of whatever system you are running.

We saw this with Donahoe....Whaley...and now these guys.

In the meantime, the meter has been running for SEVENTEEN YEARS. This, in the era of free agency.

We even change ownership, and NOTHING changes.

This is not a terribly difficult game. The key to offense is blocking, the key to defense is tackling.

We have had players here that have gone on to greater things, simply by leaving this organization.

I don't think the problem is the players.

The problem, IMHO, are the egos that keep getting hired at 1BD.

And they're laughing all the way to the bank.

So stop buying tickets, jerseys and crap like that. I never do that. That just feeds the egos and fuels your complaint.

[OpIv37]

I had no problem with who they let go. Gilmore got way overpaid, as did Woods. Sammy was going to demand big money after the season and would never have produced what he needed to in Buffalo to justify paying him $12+M/year. MG is a backup RB who will be easily replaced. And Darby flat-out sucked last year despite being in the same system. The only move I question is paying Eric Wood $8M/year for another 2 seasons. WTF?!

OK, who do we have that's equal or better than ANY of the guys we lost? I don't mind ditching Gilmore. Everyone else is questionable at best- you're trying to make the "overpaid" argument, but you saw what 15 or so years of Ralph refusing to pay guys got us. You say Gilleslie is easily replaced, yet, we didn't replace him with anyone equal or better. And like our DL, Darby excelled under the previous system. Rex just didn't know how to use him. And once again, we failed to add anyone equal or better. There is no way to argue against the reality that it was a net talent loss. Maybe it saved us some cap but so what? Who did we spend that cap on to make the team better?

[Goobylal]

OK, who do we have that's equal or better than ANY of the guys we lost? I don't mind ditching Gilmore. Everyone else is questionable at best- you're trying to make the "overpaid" argument, but you saw what 15 or so years of Ralph refusing to pay guys got us. You say Gilleslie is easily replaced, yet, we didn't replace him with anyone equal or better. And like our DL, Darby excelled under the previous system. Rex just didn't know how to use him. And once again, we failed to add anyone equal or better. There is no way to argue against the reality that it was a net talent loss. Maybe it saved us some cap but so what? Who did we spend that cap on to make the team better?

Well, there's talent, and then there's production. I don't think that almost everyone would agree that Sammy is one of the most talented WR's in the league; but it appears he can't stay healthy. If you can't stay on the field, your talent can't help the team. I have no doubt that Matthews will easily surpass Sammy's production from last year, which is what is most important, while I have doubts that Sammy will ever fulfill his talent level and will likely be with a new team next year. Tolbert and Gillislee are the same talent level, i.e. strictly backup RB's, and he looks to replace Gillislee's production. Woods' production will likely be replaced by more targets for Clay and McCoy, while the rookie Zay Jones gets his feet wet. Gaines is more talented and more productive than Darby, who has been playing under Rex the past 2 years, so that's not an excuse. And as for Gilmore and White, that's a wait-and-see. I like what I've seen from the rookie so far but won't make any definitive statements about talent or production.

[Mr. Pink]

Didn't watch the Bills game but saw the stat line...

Anyone think the Bills still erred in letting Gillislee go and using Tolbert instead?

Pretty similar statline minus the TDs but again, that's Pats offense getting to the goalline more than the Bills offense can.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Did Tolbert blow two 4th and inches?

[Goobylal]

Didn't watch the Bills game but saw the stat line...

Anyone think the Bills still erred in letting Gillislee go and using Tolbert instead?

Pretty similar statline minus the TDs but again, that's Pats offense getting to the goalline more than the Bills offense can.

Like I said, the backup RB spot was going to be filled with little problem. And Gillislee is looking like a higher-paid Blount for them.

[Goobylal]

Did Tolbert blow two 4th and inches?

Nope. That would be Gillislee.

[jlgarsh]

I think the main argument is if we had issued the 2nd round tender, he'd still be here, for a lot less than $5 million. Or we'd have another 2nd rounder. That's why people are upset...

[gr8slayer]

Because Ralph is cheap.

[OpIv37]

Did Tolbert blow two 4th and inches?


Nope. That would be Gillislee.

And when you guys spew this nonsense, you are being disingenuous in two ways. First, you are using a sample size of one game and ignoring what happened previously. Second, you are ignoring that Gilleslie still had THREE TOUCHDOWNS in that game.

We still don't have a legit backup to McCoy on the roster.

[Goobylal]

I think the main argument is if we had issued the 2nd round tender, he'd still be here, for a lot less than $5 million. Or we'd have another 2nd rounder. That's why people are upset...

The tender would have been $2.75M. Again not needed when the Bills are able to replace backup RB's at-will.


And when you guys spew this nonsense, you are being disingenuous in two ways. First, you are using a sample size of one game and ignoring what happened previously. Second, you are ignoring that Gilleslie still had THREE TOUCHDOWNS in that game.

We still don't have a legit backup to McCoy on the roster.

LOL! Talk about being disingenuous. You think Gillislee is going to score 3 TD's every game for the Cheaters? You think he would have scored 3 TD's a game for the Bills, when he had 8 last year, his first being used extensively as a backup? Give me a break.

[OpIv37]

The tender would have been $2.75M. Again not needed when the Bills are able to replace backup RB's at-will.



LOL! Talk about being disingenuous. You think Gillislee is going to score 3 TD's every game for the Cheaters? You think he would have scored 3 TD's a game for the Bills, when he had 8 last year, his first being used extensively as a backup? Give me a break.
Speculating on what Gilleslie would have done if he was still on the Bills is meaningless because, well, it's speculation and can never be proven or disproven. And no, he will not have 3 TD's every game, which is exactly why you can't use a one game sample size as you are attempting to do. And once again, the point isn't how many TD's he will have each game or how many he would have had if he were still on the Bills. The point is that the Bills don't have a legit backup to McCoy on the roster.

[justasportsfan]

First, you are using a sample size of one game and ignoring what happened previously. Second, you are ignoring that Gilleslie still had THREE TOUCHDOWNS in that game.

We still don't have a legit backup to McCoy on the roster.

What? Sample size. You are whining about 1 game ? Talk about SAMPLE SIZE.

Secondly, did you look at the NFL league stats? Who's no. 1 in the run game. The BUFFALO BILLS . Yet you are whining we did not replace MG? Are you that daft?


I know it's just 1 game like you said.....a SAMPLE SIZE but before you cry about the bills not replacing MG make sure we are not no.1 in the league. Thats just soooooo stupid. Arguing with FACTS again.

[OpIv37]

What? Sample size. You are whining about 1 game ? Talk about SAMPLE SIZE.

Secondly, did you look at the NFL league stats? Who's no. 1 in the run game. The BUFFALO BILLS . Yet you are whining we did not replace MG? Are you that daft?


I know it's just 1 game like you said.....a SAMPLE SIZE but before you cry about the bills not replacing MG make sure we are not no.1 in the league. Thats just soooooo stupid. Arguing with FACTS again.
There is no one on the roster who is proven to be as good of a backup or better than Gilleslie. That is a fact.

If you are arguing that the backups we have now have only had one game to prove themselves and the sample size is too small, well that still means that the FO took a proven commodity and replaced it with an unknown. They created yet another hole to fill.

[justasportsfan]

There is no one on the roster who is proven to be as good of a backup or better than Gilleslie. That is a fact.

If you are arguing that the backups we have now have only had one game to prove themselves and the sample size is too small, well that still means that the FO took a proven commodity and replaced it with an unknown. They created yet another hole to fill.


The nos. show otherwise. The bills being no. 1 is a FACT. If 1 game is a sample size too small then what are you whining about after 1 game? You cant' even see that using that as an excuse is actually going against your own whine.

No.1 running game in the NFL. Nuff said.

[OpIv37]

The nos. show otherwise. The bills being no. 1 is a FACT. If 1 game is a sample size too small then what are you whining about after 1 game? You cant' even see that using that as an excuse is actually going against your own whine.

No.1 running game in the NFL. Nuff said.
What do you mean, what am I whining about? We took a proven commodity and replaced him with question marks- exactly what this team had been doing over and over again during this 17 year drought. A

[justasportsfan]

What do you mean, what am I whining about? We took a proven commodity and replaced him with question marks- exactly what this team had been doing over and over again during this 17 year drought. A

No.1.

[Goobylal]

Speculating on what Gilleslie would have done if he was still on the Bills is meaningless because, well, it's speculation and can never be proven or disproven. And no, he will not have 3 TD's every game, which is exactly why you can't use a one game sample size as you are attempting to do. And once again, the point isn't how many TD's he will have each game or how many he would have had if he were still on the Bills. The point is that the Bills don't have a legit backup to McCoy on the roster.

There is no one on the roster who is proven to be as good of a backup or better than Gilleslie. That is a fact.

If you are arguing that the backups we have now have only had one game to prove themselves and the sample size is too small, well that still means that the FO took a proven commodity and replaced it with an unknown. They created yet another hole to fill.

What do you mean, what am I whining about? We took a proven commodity and replaced him with question marks- exactly what this team had been doing over and over again during this 17 year drought.

More disingenuousness and hypocrisy. Despite the Bills being #1 in rushing (again) and Tolbert's production in game 1 giving him more yards rushing and receiving and more TD's when extrapolated over a season than Gillslee last year, the argument is "there's no 'proven' backup RB." :rolleyes:

Again there was no "proven" RB when they successfully replaced Jackson, and then Williams. They prove it over the course of the season. The main stud, Shady, is still the most important guy, still there, and still a stud. The other guys are merely backups.

And I also find it funny that you Gillslee's 3 TD's in game 1 for the Cheaters, saying it proves it was a mistake to let him go, but Tolbert's production in game 1 is a small sample. And then have the nerve to talk about the last 17 years, which isn't on the Pegulas, much less the current regime.

[cookie G]

Did Tolbert blow two 4th and inches?

No, he lost 6 yards on a 1st and goal from the 2.

I'm still trying to figure out how he managed that.

[justasportsfan]

And I also find it funny that you Gillslee's 3 TD's in game 1 for the Cheaters, saying it proves it was a mistake to let him go, but Tolbert's production in game 1 is a small sample. .

Yeah, it's a double standard. Small sample size should go both ways for both Tolbert and MG. But no, thats how OP argues.

[OpIv37]

More disingenuousness and hypocrisy. Despite the Bills being #1 in rushing (again) and Tolbert's production in game 1 giving him more yards rushing and receiving and more TD's when extrapolated over a season than Gillslee last year, the argument is "there's no 'proven' backup RB." :rolleyes:

Again there was no "proven" RB when they successfully replaced Jackson, and then Williams. They prove it over the course of the season. The main stud, Shady, is still the most important guy, still there, and still a stud. The other guys are merely backups.

And I also find it funny that you Gillslee's 3 TD's in game 1 for the Cheaters, saying it proves it was a mistake to let him go, but Tolbert's production in game 1 is a small sample. And then have the nerve to talk about the last 17 years, which isn't on the Pegulas, much less the current regime.

Tolbert has ONE GAME of production. Gilleslie had all of last year plus the 3 TD game. And you are being hypocritical. Whenever I talk about how this team can't find talent, you go off on how it's a new regime, blah blah. But suddenly now all those old regimes being able to find competent back ups means the new regime can automatically do it?

This team has a lot of holes. The FO created yet another one with Gilleslie. there are only so many draft picks, FA's and roster spots and we shouldn't be using them to fix what isn't broken (or wasn't until the FO ****ed again). You are really going to a lot of trouble attempting to defend the indefensible.

[justasportsfan]

Tolbert has ONE GAME of production. Gilleslie had all of last year plus the 3 TD game. .

:roflmao:

[OpIv37]

Yeah, it's a double standard. Small sample size should go both ways for both Tolbert and MG. But no, thats how OP argues.
Are you being daft or intentionally obtuse? GILLESLIE HAD ALL OF LAST YEAR.

[justasportsfan]

Are you being daft or intentionally obtuse? GILLESLIE HAD ALL OF LAST YEAR.

No. You're being stupid. They both played 1 game each.

[Goobylal]

Tolbert has ONE GAME of production. Gilleslie had all of last year plus the 3 TD game. And you are being hypocritical. Whenever I talk about how this team can't find talent, you go off on how it's a new regime, blah blah. But suddenly now all those old regimes being able to find competent back ups means the new regime can automatically do it?

This team has a lot of holes. The FO created yet another one with Gilleslie. there are only so many draft picks, FA's and roster spots and we shouldn't be using them to fix what isn't broken (or wasn't until the FO ****ed again). You are really going to a lot of trouble attempting to defend the indefensible.

You don't build a team by giving a dime-a-dozen backup RB $3.2M/year. And if they really wanted to, they could have matched the Cheaters' offer.

But finding backup RB's isn't hard. Many teams are successful at it. And with a stud like Shady, backup RB is the least of the Bills' worries.

[justasportsfan]

MG Numbers last year (as a bills back up RB) 15 games 577 yards 8 tds

Tolbert so far 1 game 42 yards 1 TD ... he is on pace to get 630 yds for the season and 15 TDS if he plays 15 games .

Thats better than MG's numbers. Not quite fair to make the comparison after 1 game either ways.

I am not even going pull up MG's numbers from 2015 and 2014. Let's just say that in last years first game , MG had a total of -4 yards. 0 rush -4 receiving. Wanna compare that to Tolberts game last Sunday?

[sahlensguy]

You don't build a team by giving a dime-a-dozen backup RB $3.2M/year. And if they really wanted to, they could have matched the Cheaters' offer.

But finding backup RB's isn't hard. Many teams are successful at it. And with a stud like Shady, backup RB is the least of the Bills' worries.

I think the argument is is that the Patriots did, and that they are smarter than you. (no offense)

[Goobylal]

I think the argument is is that the Patriots did, and that they are smarter than you. (no offense)

They could use anybody at RB. Just like they've been doing for years. And as I said before, they're basically paying a guy 3 times what they paid Blount to do the same things.

[sahlensguy]

They could use anybody at RB. Just like they've been doing for years. And as I said before, they're basically paying a guy 3 times what they paid Blount to do the same things.
Looks like a bad deal on paper.

[justasportsfan]

I think the argument is is that the Patriots did, and that they are smarter than you. (no offense)

they didn't sign him to be a back up. They signed him to replace Blount.

[Goobylal]

Looks like a bad deal on paper.

Eh, I wouldn't go that far. They had the cap room and wanted to hurt a rival team while adding a decent player. I just don't think he's as big a loss, if at all, as some people are complaining about, and I felt the same way about Hogan. Gilmore is another story given his huge salary, but if White can reasonably approximate what Gilmore gave the Bills, the Bills absolutely made the correct decision.

- - - Updated - - -


they didn't sign him to be a back up. They signed him to replace Blount.

I disagree. Blount is a proven starting RB. Gillislee isn't: he's a backup. They essentially have a bunch of backup RB's they're platooning, and he's one of them.

[kishoph]

Did Tolbert blow two 4th and inches?

Tolbert did lose 6 yds. from the Jets 2 yd. line, and 2 plays later the Bills turned it over.

[YardRat]

Tolbert has ONE GAME of production. Gilleslie had all of last year plus the 3 TD game. And you are being hypocritical. Whenever I talk about how this team can't find talent, you go off on how it's a new regime, blah blah. But suddenly now all those old regimes being able to find competent back ups means the new regime can automatically do it?

This team has a lot of holes. The FO created yet another one with Gilleslie. there are only so many draft picks, FA's and roster spots and we shouldn't be using them to fix what isn't broken (or wasn't until the FO ****ed again). You are really going to a lot of trouble attempting to defend the indefensible.
You're trying waay too hard on this one Op.

Maybe I missed it, but what is the argument that supports Tolbert isn't the equal of, or better than, Gillislee as a backup to Shady again?

[OpIv37]

You're trying waay too hard on this one Op.

Maybe I missed it, but what is the argument that supports Tolbert isn't the equal of, or better than, Gillislee as a backup to Shady again?
Better numbers last year on our team. Why fix it if it ain't broke? Why create another hole? Why let a guy who was productive for us go to our most hated rival and help them out? A couple of million in cap space? Well who did we sign or lock up with that cap space to make the team better?

Maybe Tolbert will be just as good but it's nonsensical to replace a definite with a maybe.

[YardRat]

How do you know Gillislee had better numbers when the only thing you can compare it with to determine that hasn't even happened yet?

[Mr. Pink]

Tolbert will easily rush for 500 yards and 8 TDs on the year, which is exactly Gillislee production here.

Why are we comparing Gillislee's 3 TD performance when he's on a superior offense?

If that's all you're comparing, both will have the same amount of yards while Gillislee will double the TD output for this season, and then they'll never measure up.

[Night Train]

I watched MG fill in for McCoy full time against the Jets and get 24 carries for 28 yards. He also started against KC and had 16 carries for 40 yards.

Enough of the embellished fantasy. He's a backup, change of pace guy who cannot produce as a full time starter. Hooray for his 3 TD's. He wasn't going to get that here.

[OpIv37]

I watched MG fill in for McCoy full time against the Jets and get 24 carries for 28 yards. He also started against KC and had 16 carries for 40 yards.

Enough of the embellished fantasy. He's a backup, change of pace guy who cannot produce as a full time starter. Hooray for his 3 TD's. He wasn't going to get that here.
Yes he's a backup change of pace guy which was EXACTLY WHAT WE NEEDED. But we let him go help a div rival so we had to fill another hole with a guy hoping he'll be as good as the GUY WE ALREADY HAD.

[Night Train]

Get over it. I'm fine with Tolbert and Banyard. McCoy is our starter anyhow so I could care less.

If only MG could play OT, WR or some other position THAT WE ACTUALLY NEED !

[GreedoII]

this thread needs to end....

[OpIv37]

Get over it. I'm fine with Tolbert and Banyard. McCoy is our starter anyhow so I could care less.

If only MG could play OT, WR or some other position THAT WE ACTUALLY NEED !

We need a backup RB because no starter can carry the full load in a 16 game season. We had one that we knew could do the job. Now we have one that we hope can do the job..::

[YardRat]

How do you know Gillislee had better numbers when the only thing you can compare it with to determine that hasn't even happened yet?

[swiper]

Yes he's a backup change of pace guy which was EXACTLY WHAT WE NEEDED. But we let him go help a div rival so we had to fill another hole with a guy hoping he'll be as good as the GUY WE ALREADY HAD.

Stop it. The Patriots overpaid because they had a hole they needed to fill. If you can't be happy with McCoy, Tolbert, Banyard and one of the best FBs in the NFL, then we can't help you. Both Tolbert and Banyard have shown you their worth in short order. Let the Gillislee thing go. He's not going to amount to much. Not even the Patriots are banking on it. They have 6 RBs (http://www.patriots.com/schedule-and-stats/depth-chart) on their roster hoping one will turn out to be a gem. They didn't put all their eggs into the Gillislee basket either. Notice he's not top on their depth chart?

[OpIv37]

Stop it. The Patriots overpaid because they had a hole they needed to fill. If you can't be happy with McCoy, Tolbert, Banyard and one of the best FBs in the NFL, then we can't help you. Both Tolbert and Banyard have shown you their worth in short order. Let the Gillislee thing go. He's not going to amount to much. Not even the Patriots are banking on it. They have 6 RBs (http://www.patriots.com/schedule-and-stats/depth-chart) on their roster hoping one will turn out to be a gem. They didn't put all their eggs into the Gillislee basket either. Notice he's not top on their depth chart?

They had one good game against an awful team. That's not "showing their worth." And keeping Gilleslie wouldn't be "putting all our eggs in the Gilleslie basket" because he's the back up, and he's proven to be a good one.

Maybe I'll be happy with Tolbert and Banyard in time, but even if they turn out to be good, it was still an unnecessary risk that helped a division rival.

[tomz]

We need a backup RB because no starter can carry the full load in a 16 game season. We had one that we knew could do the job. Now we have one that we hope can do the job..::
Am I missing something? Tolbert has had a pretty long career with good production. Why are we 'hoping' he can do the job? Tolbert is a known quantity and has been pretty good for years. I agree that losing Gillislee was a bit of a shock but that doesn't diminish the quality of Tolbert.

[OpIv37]

Am I missing something? Tolbert has had a pretty long career with good production. Why are we 'hoping' he can do the job? Tolbert is a known quantity and has been pretty good for years. I agree that losing Gillislee was a bit of a shock but that doesn't diminish the quality of Tolbert.

Once again... why take the risk? We had a guy that we know worked and we ditched him over $3 million in cap to go with a guy who may work. Even if you say Tolbert should work based on his previous performance, there is still an element of doubt.

We're $8.2 million under the cap so it's not like we needed the space. If we used that money to lock a guy up or sign a quality FA, you could probably convince me that it's worth the risk. Instead, we took the risk to make a rich guy slightly richer without doing anything to improve the team.

[Mace]

I can agree with both sides.

Gillislee is younger, was proven (J. Williams for that matter was younger, had upside), there's a reasonable argument there not to open more holes and go with older temps.

On the other hand, RB's are not hard to find, and Tolbert showed some impressive acceleration I didn't expect from him, ability to run with power (5'9, 243, Gillislee is 5'11, 218), and is noted for his character (significant in a transition year).

My thought is that McDermott, going forward wants thunder and lightning from his backfield. McCoy even ran with more purposeful authority without much affecting his style. I think the backfield is transitional atm.

[YardRat]

How do you know Gillislee had better numbers when the only thing you can compare it with to determine that hasn't even happened yet?

[justasportsfan]

Once again... why take the risk? We had a guy that we know worked and we ditched him over $3 million in cap to go with a guy who may work.
You can't use $$$$ as your argument. It's not an assumption to say you would cry if we paid him that much because you've always argued rbs are a dime a dozen. Stop arguing with yourself

[Historian]

Both are comparable backs, so I do not think that there is a talent dropoff between the two.

I liked Gillislee because he always ran North and South, and hit the holes very quickly.

I like Tolbert because he's a big dude who can bowl people over. Has speed too. Reminds me of Jones-Drew a little.

Time will tell.

[Goobylal]

Both are comparable backs, so I do not think that there is a talent dropoff between the two.

I liked Gillislee because he always ran North and South, and hit the holes very quickly.

I like Tolbert because he's a big dude who can bowl people over. Has speed too. Reminds me of Jones-Drew a little.

Time will tell.

Yup. And no one gave a **** about Gillislee OR Hogan until the Cheaters decided to sniff them out. Then it became "oh, they should have given these JAGs a 2nd rounder tender, what idiots!"

[justasportsfan]

Once again... why take the risk? We had a guy that we know worked and we ditched him over $3 million in cap to go with a guy who may work.

Why bother drafting "may work" players. Just trade draft away for proven players?

[psubills62]

Can someone explain to me why Spartacus is using "we" in reference to Bills fans?

[CommissarSpartacus]

Can someone explain to me why Spartacus is using "we" in reference to Bills fans?

Cuz I've been a Bills fan for 55 years.

How long is it for you? I bet it was JP Losman that made you a Bills fan, right? What's that make it? 12 whole years for you?

[CommissarSpartacus]

Another solid game for Gillislee.

18 attempts, 69 yds, 1 td.

[Historian]

I think what irks Bills fans the most, is that we finally find a diamond in the rough, and he gets poached from us....by NE no less.

You watch. Poyter will make the pro bowl and somebody will poach him too...or they'll make the Bills an offer they can't refuse, lol.

[YardRat]

vs. Texans 12 carries 31 yards 2.6 ypc 0 tds.
vs. Panthers 12 carries 49 yards 4.1 ypc 0 tds.

For the year 57 carries, 194 yards, 3.2 ypc, 4 tds.

Has the hair-pulling and hand-wringing calmed down the last couple of weeks, or is it just me?

For the record, Gillie's YPC for his career are Miami 3.5...Buffalo 5.7...Buffalo 5.7...New England 3.4. Hmmmmmm......

[kingJofNYC]

Would still take him over Tolbert.

[OpIv37]

vs. Texans 12 carries 31 yards 2.6 ypc 0 tds.
vs. Panthers 12 carries 49 yards 4.1 ypc 0 tds.

For the year 57 carries, 194 yards, 3.2 ypc, 4 tds.

Has the hair-pulling and hand-wringing calmed down the last couple of weeks, or is it just me?

For the record, Gillie's YPC for his career are Miami 3.5...Buffalo 5.7...Buffalo 5.7...New England 3.4. Hmmmmmm......
Once again, who do we have that's better?

Tolbert has a slightly better average- 3.5- but fewer yards overall (119) and only a single TD. Granted, he's had fewer touches (34 vs 57), but he's not gonna get 3 TD's in his next 23 carries.

[TigerJ]

Mostly, I think it boiled down to money. Buffalo was in a tight cap situation and couldn't match what the Patriots were offering for a backup.

[YardRat]

Once again, who do we have that's better?

Is Tolbert really worse?

Tolbert has a slightly better average- 3.5- but fewer yards overall (119) and only a single TD. Granted, he's had fewer touches (34 vs 57), but he's not gonna get 3 TD's in his next 23 carries.
Probably not, but then he could...we'll see. What significance to their respective teams do Gillie's 4 TDs and Tolbert's 1 TD carry?

Gillie's stats for the first four games last season were 9 carries, 50 yards, 0 tds. Is Tolbert doing better or worse than that?

[OpIv37]

Is Tolbert really worse?

Probably not, but then he could...we'll see. What significance to their respective teams do Gillie's 4 TDs and Tolbert's 1 TD carry?

Gillie's stats for the first four games last season were 9 carries, 50 yards, 0 tds. Is Tolbert doing better or worse than that?

Well, last year was last year. We had a guy that was working. We let him go help a div rival so we could roll the dice on an unknown who has been at best equal so far. Once again, why take the risk that Tolbert won't work out? Why take the risk that Gilleslie will help the Pats? To save a couple million that we didn't do anything with? It's still an unnecessary risk.

[Goobylal]

In Cheaterland the shine is starting to come off of Gillislee. He's being played like a starter but he's a backup RB.

[YardRat]

Well, last year was last year.

You need to make up your mind what parameters you want to use to support your argument other than 'because I said so'. Gillislee's performance this season for the Patriots really isn't any better than Tolbert's for the Bills, unless '4-1 in TD's' is the only factor you'll consider. Also, Gillislee's performance over the first four games of last season for the Bills is much worse than Tolbert's first four games for the Bills this season, but apparently the counter for that is 'no fair, that doesn't count'. Why not? The only thing left you have to possibly hang your hat on is if Gillislee's overall performance over the 2016 season is better than Tolbert's overall 2017, and there is no way for you to know that at this time with 75% of the season left to play.


We had a guy that was working.

Tolbert is working.


We let him go help a div rival so we could roll the dice on an unknown who has been at best equal so far.

Tolbert is not an unknown. You'd have a better argument for Gilmore and/or Darby vs Tre' White if you want to argue known vs unknown.


Once again, why take the risk that Tolbert won't work out? Why take the risk that Gilleslie will help the Pats? To save a couple million that we didn't do anything with? It's still an unnecessary risk.

After 17 seasons of no playoffs is there such a thing as an unnecessary risk?

[OpIv37]

You need to make up your mind what parameters you want to use to support your argument other than 'because I said so'. Gillislee's performance this season for the Patriots really isn't any better than Tolbert's for the Bills, unless '4-1 in TD's' is the only factor you'll consider. Also, Gillislee's performance over the first four games of last season for the Bills is much worse than Tolbert's first four games for the Bills this season, but apparently the counter for that is 'no fair, that doesn't count'. Why not? The only thing left you have to possibly hang your hat on is if Gillislee's overall performance over the 2016 season is better than Tolbert's overall 2017, and there is no way for you to know that at this time with 75% of the season left to play.



Tolbert is working.



Tolbert is not an unknown. You'd have a better argument for Gilmore and/or Darby vs Tre' White if you want to argue known vs unknown.



After 17 seasons of no playoffs is there such a thing as an unnecessary risk?
You just said that Gilleslie's TD's on another team are irrelevant here, but suddenly what Tolbert did elsewhere is now relevant? Make up your mind.

And yes, there are unnecessary risks no matter how good or bad the team is.

[YardRat]

You just said that Gilleslie's TD's on another team are irrelevant here, but suddenly what Tolbert did elsewhere is now relevant? Make up your mind.
And yes, there are unnecessary risks no matter how good or bad the team is.

Read my comments again for what I said, not what you want to read.

You have nothing until all is said and done for this year to support your opinion except 'because I want to ***** about something'. You know it, you just need to admit it.

[OpIv37]

Read my comments again for what I said, not what you want to read.

You have nothing until all is said and done for this year to support your opinion except 'because I want to ***** about something'. You know it, you just need to admit it.
We had a guy that was working. We let him go to a div rival. 1/4 way through the season, we don't know if we replaced him with someone equal or better. This is not just something to ***** about. It's a legit issue.

[Goobylal]

We had a guy that was working. We let him go to a div rival. 1/4 way through the season, we don't know if we replaced him with someone equal or better. This is not just something to ***** about. It's a legit issue.

The Bills are 3-1. Mike Gillislee would not have made the Bills 4-0. That is all you need to know.

[OpIv37]

The Bills are 3-1. Mike Gillislee would not have made the Bills 4-0. That is all you need to know.

Disagree. I prefer not to stick my head in the sand.

[justasportsfan]

If Shady can't do much under this system, I doubt Gillislee could do any better than he did last year either. This system doesn't seem to have a potent running game than the one Roman had.

[Goobylal]

Disagree. I prefer not to stick my head in the sand.

Sorry but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone else who thinks that Mike Gillislee would have been the difference between the Bills being 4-0 and 3-1.

[psubills62]

Comparisons are apples to oranges at this point. As justa mentioned, McCoy's numbers aren't as good this year either. Different systems, different coaches across the board. Gillislee's salary is also more than three times what Tolbert's is. McDermott and co. aren't going to be perfect, but with how well they have found good fits for the team, if they didn't think Gillislee was worth that kind of money then so be it.

This is the nature of the NFL now. Gillislee is hardly a player worth arguing about. If it was a core guy they let go, sure, that's worth arguing about. A guy being overpaid at 3m/year? Whatever. Replaceable, and that's how a lot of teams operate, including the Patriots. It doesn't mean each team will always have someone better right away, but it's certainly not a player who is vital to the team's success.

[OpIv37]

Sorry but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone else who thinks that Mike Gillislee would have been the difference between the Bills being 4-0 and 3-1.
Yeah whether or not he's the difference isn't the question. You could say the same thing about 3/4 of the roster.

[Goobylal]

Yeah whether or not he's the difference isn't the question. You could say the same thing about 3/4 of the roster.

Wha? Sure it's the question for YOU since you're the one continuing to talk like he was a loss. He wasn't. He's a backup RB and that's all he'll ever be. Which is why they let him go instead of giving him $3.25M/year to be no better than Tolbert.

[OpIv37]

Wha? Sure it's the question for YOU since you're the one continuing to talk like he was a loss. He wasn't. He's a backup RB and that's all he'll ever be. Which is why they let him go instead of giving him $3.25M/year to be no better than Tolbert.

Why take the risk over $3.25 million a year when a) that money wasn't re-invested into the team and b) he can potentially help our most hated rival?

You keep bringing up the money issue like it matters or somehow makes us better that the already rich owner saved a couple million. We risked getting worse and helping our opponent for no benefit to the team.

[Goobylal]

Why take the risk over $3.25 million a year when a) that money wasn't re-invested into the team and b) he can potentially help our most hated rival?

You keep bringing up the money issue like it matters or somehow makes us better that the already rich owner saved a couple million. We risked getting worse and helping our opponent for no benefit to the team.

Just because you have money doesn't mean you should waste it (and currently they're just $8.3M under the cap). Especially on a position that I told you the Bills have been able to fill easily the past few years. And I'd rather they save it for, say, a trade for a WR or extending a younger player, or even rolling it into next year when they should make some serious noise.

[OpIv37]

Just because you have money doesn't mean you should waste it (and currently they're just $8.3M under the cap). Especially on a position that I told you the Bills have been able to fill easily the past few years. And I'd rather they save it for, say, a trade for a WR or extending a younger player, or even rolling it into next year when they should make some serious noise.

Well Tolbert's at $980k so we're talking just over $2.25 mil in cap space that we saved. Those are quite lofty goals for $2.25 million.

[Goobylal]

Well Tolbert's at $980k so we're talking just over $2.25 mil in cap space that we saved. Those are quite lofty goals for $2.25 million.

Every bit helps.

[justasportsfan]

Why take the risk over $3.25 million a year when a) that money wasn't re-invested into the team and b) he can potentially help our most hated rival?

You keep bringing up the money issue like it matters or somehow makes us better that the already rich owner saved a couple million. We risked getting worse and helping our opponent for no benefit to the team.
With that logic, we should have paid Gilmore because he can potentially help a rival.


:shakeno: Runningbacks grow on trees.

[The last buffalo fan]

With that logic, we should have paid Gilmore because he can potentially help a rival.
:shakeno: Runningbacks grow on trees.

Ralph is cheap???

[Joe Fo Sho]

Gillislee is not special. He's cracked 50 yards 1 time so far this season and doesn't have a single catch out of the backfield. He had 3 touchdowns during primetime on plays that any RB in the league could have made, but I don't see the problem. Maybe it's the primetime touchdowns that make people upset, or maybe it was when the commentator said that the Patriots have better Bills players than the Bills have. How's that working out for them?

[psubills62]

Why is there 6 pages about a role player? My word, move on.

[OpIv37]

With that logic, we should have paid Gilmore because he can potentially help a rival.


:shakeno: Runningbacks grow on trees.
Wrong. We had no idea where Gilmore would go if we let him hit FA. The Pats signed Gilleslie to an offer sheet somw knew exactly where he would go.

[Goobylal]

Why is there 6 pages about a role player? My word, move on.

Because some people think nothing of a guy until the Cheaters start sniffing around/sign him. The truth is that Hogan is a 3rd WR and Gilly is a backup RB. Gilmore should have been a stud but is a bust for them so far.

[OpIv37]

Gillislee is not special. He's cracked 50 yards 1 time so far this season and doesn't have a single catch out of the backfield. He had 3 touchdowns during primetime on plays that any RB in the league could have made, but I don't see the problem. Maybe it's the primetime touchdowns that make people upset, or maybe it was when the commentator said that the Patriots have better Bills players than the Bills have. How's that working out for them?
I'm not really sure how to make this more clear.
We had a guy that worked. We let him go to a div rival and took a guy that we don't know will work- and still don't know 1/4 of the way through the season, all to save $2.25 million that wasn't reinvested in the team.

If you can't see the problems there I don't know how to help you any further.

[OpIv37]

Because some people think nothing of a guy until the Cheaters start sniffing around/sign him. The truth is that Hogan is a 3rd WR and Gilly is a backup RB. Gilmore should have been a stud but is a bust for them so far.
Truth is we had a guy that worked and took a risk replacing him with someone who we still don't know will work over $2.25 million that wasn't reinvested in the team.

[psubills62]

Truth is we had a guy that worked and took a risk replacing him with someone who we still don't know will work over $2.25 million that wasn't reinvested in the team.
Everything's a risk in the NFL, get used to it. Nobody knows if he would have worked with the new coaches in town. The risk is based on cost, which is one roster spot and almost $1m in salary for Tolbert vs. one roster spot and $3.2m for Gillislee. I know which is higher risk. Especially when Gillislee had only played 23 games in three years.

What evidence are you using to determine if it was reinvested in the team or not?

[Joe Fo Sho]

I'm not really sure how to make this more clear.
We had a guy that worked. We let him go to a div rival and took a guy that we don't know will work- and still don't know 1/4 of the way through the season, all to save $2.25 million that wasn't reinvested in the team.

If you can't see the problems there I don't know how to help you any further.

We had a guy that worked with Anthony Lynn's offense. Why do you assume he would work under McDermott?

[OpIv37]

We had a guy that worked with Anthony Lynn's offense. Why do you assume he would work under McDermott?

Well if that's your logic, why sign or draft anybody unless we hire the guy from the team they came from to run the O?

[OpIv37]

Everything's a risk in the NFL, get used to it. Nobody knows if he would have worked with the new coaches in town. The risk is based on cost, which is one roster spot and almost $1m in salary for Tolbert vs. one roster spot and $3.2m for Gillislee. I know which is higher risk. Especially when Gillislee had only played 23 games in three years.

What evidence are you using to determine if it was reinvested in the team or not?
$8.3 mil under the cap. Even if we paid him we'd have $5 million in cap left.

And the risk isn't just about salary. It's about replacing a guy that was working with an unknown and letting a guy potentially hurt us by going to our div rivals.

[psubills62]

$8.3 mil under the cap. Even if we paid him we'd have $5 million in cap left.

And the risk isn't just about salary. It's about replacing a guy that was working with an unknown and letting a guy potentially hurt us by going to our div rivals.
LOL so the team has to be right at the cap for it to count as reinvested? How is that a prudent way to run the team? You always want to keep cap space open for signings during the season in case of injury and potential extensions for current players. It's more than possible they have a goal of what kind of cap space they want to have available. Maybe they met that goal, maybe they didn't. But I can guarantee you don't know how they want to run the team, and I can guarantee if they "reinvested" to the point where they had zero cap space left, you'd be complaining about that.

Tolbert might be an unknown to you. He's been in the league for ten years, that hardly counts as an unknown. McDermott's been around him at Carolina for five years. Gillislee again has only played 23 games in 3 years. Replaceable.

Any guy the Pats get could "potentially hurt us." I'd rather our coaches worry about building the best team and roster they can given the salary cap rather than worrying about who the Pats could sign.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Well if that's your logic, why sign or draft anybody unless we hire the guy from the team they came from to run the O?

That's not my logic at all. Different coaches can have different schemes, different players can be a fit or not a fit. It's not out of the question.

The fact is, this argument is as ridiculous today as it was 4 weeks ago. He's a backup running back who went to a team where he's also the backup running back. Your pitchfork would be much better served complaining about dozens of other decisions that may have actually mattered.

[Mouldsie]

The fact is, this argument is as ridiculous today as it was 4 weeks ago. He's a backup running back who went to a team where he's also the backup running back.
You use this kind of argument in a lot of threads. Why even field a roster?

[OpIv37]

That's not my logic at all. Different coaches can have different schemes, different players can be a fit or not a fit. It's not out of the question.

The fact is, this argument is as ridiculous today as it was 4 weeks ago. He's a backup running back who went to a team where he's also the backup running back. Your pitchfork would be much better served complaining about dozens of other decisions that may have actually mattered.

Once again, we had a guy that worked. We let him go to a div rival and brought in an unknown to save $2.2 million that wasn't reinvested in the team.

It's a completely unnecessary risk. You can call it "ridiculous" if you want but it's absolutely not.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Once again, we had a guy that worked. We let him go to a div rival and brought in an unknown to save $2.2 million that wasn't reinvested in the team.

It's a completely unnecessary risk. You can call it "ridiculous" if you want but it's absolutely not.

Does it matter that he went to a division rival when he's averaging 49 yards per game, with 3.6 yards per carry?

[Joe Fo Sho]

You use this kind of argument in a lot of threads. Why even field a roster?

You should field a roster because that gives you the best chance of winning football games.

I liked Gillislee, I didn't want him to leave. When we let him go, I got over it. The decision that was made has not hurt this football team as of today.

[Goobylal]

Does it matter that he went to a division rival when he's averaging 49 yards per game, with 3.6 yards per carry?

No. Just that he went to a division rival. That's he's not exactly what they hoped he'd be means little.

[OpIv37]

Does it matter that he went to a division rival when he's averaging 49 yards per game, with 3.6 yards per carry?

You act like they knew how he would perform when they didn't match the offer sheet.

[Joe Fo Sho]

You act like they knew how he would perform when they didn't match the offer sheet.

I wanted them to match the offer, but thought that wasn't a big deal either way. He's just a running back. I had no idea how he would perform, and neither did you. You made an early assessment of the move, that you hate it, and now you won't let it go even as it has proved to be much less meaningful than you originally thought. As you get more information, you can adjust your judgments based on how the situation turned out. This move, as of today, was not wrong.

[psubills62]

Once again, we had a guy that worked. We let him go to a div rival and brought in an unknown to save $2.2 million that wasn't reinvested in the team.
It's a completely unnecessary risk. You can call it "ridiculous" if you want but it's absolutely not.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Typical.

[OpIv37]

I wanted them to match the offer, but thought that wasn't a big deal either way. He's just a running back. I had no idea how he would perform, and neither did you. You made an early assessment of the move, that you hate it, and now you won't let it go even as it has proved to be much less meaningful than you originally thought. As you get more information, you can adjust your judgments based on how the situation turned out. This move, as of today, was not wrong.
Well first, we don't know yet if we replaced him with someone equal or better. Depends how Tolbert finishes out the season.

So it's not over.

Second, even if it happens to work out, it was a completely unnecessary risk. That isn't going to change and for that reason, I will never like the move.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Well first, we don't know yet if we replaced him with someone equal or better. Depends how Tolbert finishes out the season.

It depends on how the group of backup running backs does, not just Tolbert. Shady is our starter, Gillislee was going to be nothing but a part of the backup group.


So it's not over.

Second, even if it happens to work out, it was a completely unnecessary risk. That isn't going to change and for that reason, I will never like the move.

So, what you're saying is...even if you're wrong, you're still not wrong.

Cool, what a fun argument this has been.

[OpIv37]

It depends on how the group of backup running backs does, not just Tolbert. Shady is our starter, Gillislee was going to be nothing but a part of the backup group.



So, what you're saying is...even if you're wrong, you're still not wrong.

Cool, what a fun argument this has been.
I'm saying it's not about me. The FO took an unnecessary risk, period.

[justasportsfan]

I'm saying it's not about me.

When someone is arguing your flawed logic, it's about you.
When someone points out that you are arguing with yourself when you flipflop, it's about you.

[Goobylal]

You act like they knew how he would perform when they didn't match the offer sheet.

Looks like they did.

[OpIv37]

When someone is arguing your flawed logic, it's about you.
When someone points out that you are arguing with yourself when you flipflop, it's about you.

My complaint about this move is- and has always been- that we took too big of a risk by allowing a player that was working well for us to go to a div rival. There is no flipfop or flawed logic. Some of you just insist on defending the team no matter what.

[justasportsfan]

My complaint about this move is- and has always been- that we took too big of a risk by allowing a player that was working well for us to go to a div rival. There is no flipfop or flawed logic. Some of you just insist on defending the team no matter what.

big risk by not overpaying a back up in a position you insist grows in trees? pay Gilmore. It was a risk letting him go to a rival team.
Whats next, we should have paid Hogan and Branch too?
We should have never traded Sheppard because he ended up in Miami.

[OpIv37]

big risk by not overpaying a back up in a position you insist grows in trees? pay Gilmore. It was a risk letting him go to a rival team.
Whats next, we should have paid Hogan and Branch too?
We should have never traded Sheppard because he ended up in Miami.
Once again, we didn't know where any of those guys would end up. We knew exactly where Gilleslie would end up cuz of te offer sheet. As usual, you are comparing dissimilar situations.

[Joe Fo Sho]

My complaint about this move is- and has always been- that we took too big of a risk by allowing a player that was working well for us to go to a div rival. There is no flipfop or flawed logic. Some of you just insist on defending the team no matter what.

"we took too big of a risk"

Clearly we didn't, as we're doing just fine.

[OpIv37]

"we took too big of a risk"

Clearly we didn't, as we're doing just fine.

Um, no. That's not how risks work. It happened to work out- that doesn't mean it wasn't a big risk.

I could cash out my 401k, go to a casino, and put it all on black for one spin of roulette. If I win, I'll be doing just fine, but it would still be way too big of a risk.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Um, no. That's not how risks work. It happened to work out- that doesn't mean it wasn't a big risk.

If it were too big of a risk, like you said, we'd be failing because of it. Clearly it wasn't too big. You could say it was big if you want, but it wasn't too big. I'd probably classify it as a small risk, maybe small-medium, because it was just a stupid backup running back.

[OpIv37]

If it were too big of a risk, like you said, we'd be failing because of it. Clearly it wasn't too big. You could say it was big if you want, but it wasn't too big. I'd probably classify it as a small risk, maybe small-medium, because it was just a stupid backup running back.

well I'm not going to argue semantics with you but even if it's a small or small-medium risk, it's not worth taking for $2.25 million in cap space that wasn't used.

[Joe Fo Sho]

well I'm not going to argue semantics with you but even if it's a small or small-medium risk, it's not worth taking for $2.25 million in cap space that wasn't used.

His cap hit this year is $4MM.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/mike-gillislee-12446/

That's a lot for a stupid backup running back.

[justasportsfan]

His cap hit this year is $4MM.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/mike-gillislee-12446/

That's a lot for a stupid backup running back.

What ow OP? should we have tied up 4 million on top of what we're paying Shady? We would be the only one paying a back up 4 million in the league just so that the Patriots could not have him.

[OpIv37]

What ow OP? should we have tied up 4 million on top of what we're paying Shady? We would be the only one paying a back up 4 million in the league just so that the Patriots could not have him.
Nah. Stuffing it in Pegula's mattress was a much better use of the money.

[OpIv37]

His cap hit this year is $4MM.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/mike-gillislee-12446/

That's a lot for a stupid backup running back.
Tolbert's cap hit is a million so you're still talking just 3 million against the cap. Not worth the risk

[Joe Fo Sho]

I can picture Op's thread this week if we had kept Gillislee...


Why are we paying $4MM for a backup RB who's averaging 3.6 YPC??

Gillislee is the most overpaid running back in the NFL right now. Why is this guy on the team? $4MM for a running back is much too big of a risk when we could pull anyone off the street to run the ball.

[BillsOwnAll]

Be nice to OP. He's scrambling right now. We have a winning record and people are happy!

[OpIv37]

I can picture Op's thread this week if we had kept Gillislee...


Why are we paying $4MM for a backup RB who's averaging 3.6 YPC??

Gillislee is the most overpaid running back in the NFL right now. Why is this guy on the team? $4MM for a running back is much too big of a risk when we could pull anyone off the street to run the ball.
Here we go again.... yet another post based on guessing how someone else would react in a hypothetical situation that never actually occurred.

[sudzy]

Tolbert's cap hit is a million so you're still talking just 3 million against the cap. Not worth the risk

Both backs are averaging 3.5 yards/carry. So your upset because your not spending 3 million dollars more for similar production?

[OpIv37]

Both backs are averaging 3.5 yards/carry. So your upset because your not spending 3 million dollars more for similar production?

No, I'm upset that we let a guy go who was working to replace him with a guy that we didn't know (and still don't know) will work. I'm upset that we let him go to a hated div rival where he could poterionally hurt us. And I'm upset that we did it to save $3 mill that Pegula shoved in bins mattress.

[justasportsfan]

Here we go again.... yet another post based on guessing how someone else would react in a hypothetical situation that never actually occurred.

It's not hypothetical. We know this based on your habitual whining and flipflopping ways.

[Goobylal]

No, I'm upset that we let a guy go who was working to replace him with a guy that we didn't know (and still don't know) will work. I'm upset that we let him go to a hated div rival where he could poterionally hurt us. And I'm upset that we did it to save $3 mill that Pegula shoved in bins mattress.

Decisions aren't made in a vacuum. The Bills didn't want to even give him the 2nd round tender salary because they felt (and nothing so far has disproved them) that they could fill his position. And when the Cheaters came calling, they took a 5th rounder instead of paying him $3.25M/year. IOW, they had numerous chances to keep him, but didn't. He's hardly a loss for the Bills and hardly a gain for the Cheaters. Move on now.

[OpIv37]

Decisions aren't made in a vacuum. The Bills didn't want to even give him the 2nd round tender salary because they felt (and nothing so far has disproved them) that they could fill his position. And when the Cheaters came calling, they took a 5th rounder instead of paying him $3.25M/year. IOW, they had numerous chances to keep him, but didn't. He's hardly a loss for the Bills and hardly a gain for the Cheaters. Move on now.

Well, first,they had no way of knowing that at the time they made the decision. But they took the risk anyway, which is the whole reason I was mad then and the reason I still don't like the decision.

Second, that statement might be true at the moment but we still have 75% of the season to play, including two games against us. He could still gash us for 300 yards and 4 TD's in those games. I'll admit that seems unlikely given his nmbers and the way our D is playing, but it's not impossible.

Your statement is based on what we know now, not what we knew at the time the decision was made, and the statement may or may not hold true in the future.

[feldspar]

Well, first,they had no way of knowing that at the time they made the decision. But they took the risk anyway, which is the whole reason I was mad then and the reason I still don't like the decision.

Second, that statement might be true at the moment but we still have 75% of the season to play, including two games against us. He could still gash us for 300 yards and 4 TD's in those games. I'll admit that seems unlikely given his nmbers and the way our D is playing, but it's not impossible.

Your statement is based on what we know now, not what we knew at the time the decision was made, and the statement may or may not hold true in the future.

Do you even enjoy watching football?

[justasportsfan]

Once we know that any of our rival teams want to sign a player, we should make them an offer sheet just so they don't get them...... OP logic.

[OpIv37]

Once we know that any of our rival teams want to sign a player, we should make them an offer sheet just so they don't get them...... OP logic.

That's not what I said and you know it. You're just trying to spur the argument.

[Goobylal]

Well, first,they had no way of knowing that at the time they made the decision. But they took the risk anyway, which is the whole reason I was mad then and the reason I still don't like the decision.

Second, that statement might be true at the moment but we still have 75% of the season to play, including two games against us. He could still gash us for 300 yards and 4 TD's in those games. I'll admit that seems unlikely given his nmbers and the way our D is playing, but it's not impossible.

Your statement is based on what we know now, not what we knew at the time the decision was made, and the statement may or may not hold true in the future.

It was hardly a "risk." He's a backup RB. That's all he'll ever be. The Bills have been able to find backup RB's, like most teams are able to do, and they're not valuable commodities whatsoever. The Cheaters probably thought he could be a starting RB, but they're now finding that after his hot start (read: first game), he's cooled-down considerably and showing why the Bills let him walk. I really have no idea why you're still harping on him because he's not playing that well and he wouldn't have helped the Bills win that Panthers game since there were no goal-line runs to convert, which is pretty much all he's good for.


Once we know that any of our rival teams want to sign a player, we should make them an offer sheet just so they don't get them...... OP logic.

Pretty much what he's saying. Don't let anyone go because, god forbid, the Cheaters might sign them! :rolleyes:

[OpIv37]

It was hardly a "risk." He's a backup RB. That's all he'll ever be. The Bills have been able to find backup RB's, like most teams are able to do, and they're not valuable commodities whatsoever. The Cheaters probably thought he could be a starting RB, but they're now finding that after his hot start (read: first game), he's cooled-down considerably and showing why the Bills let him walk. I really have no idea why you're still harping on him because he's not playing that well and he wouldn't have helped the Bills win that Panthers game since there were no goal-line runs to convert, which is pretty much all he's good for.



Pretty much what he's saying. Don't let anyone go because, god forbid, the Cheaters might sign them! :rolleyes:

Once again, you are completely ignoring the fact that in this case, we knew with 100% certainty that he was going to the Pats. That isn't the case with most FA's. You are talking about treating totally different scenarios the same way.

[Goobylal]

Once again, you are completely ignoring the fact that in this case, we knew with 100% certainty that he was going to the Pats. That isn't the case with most FA's. You are talking about treating totally different scenarios the same way.

I'm not ignoring it at all. They decided not to match the Cheaters' offer sheet to Gillislee/let him walk. If they thought that much of him, they would have matched it since it wasn't that big of an offer/they had cap room.

And again I have no idea why are you harping on him? He had 3 TD's in his first game and has had 1 TD in his last 4. His YPC average is virtually the same as Tolbert's.

[OpIv37]

I'm not ignoring it at all. They decided not to match the Cheaters' offer sheet to Gillislee/let him walk. If they thought that much of him, they would have matched it since it wasn't that big of an offer/they had cap room.

And again I have no idea why are you harping on him? He had 3 TD's in his first game and has had 1 TD in his last 4. His YPC average is virtually the same as Tolbert's.

Because once again, we know that NOW. We didn't know that at the time the decision was made. We let a quality player go to a div rival and put ourselves in a position where we had yet another hole to fill.

[Goobylal]

Because once again, we know that NOW. We didn't know that at the time the decision was made. We let a quality player go to a div rival and put ourselves in a position where we had yet another hole to fill.

No one knows what the future will bring. Do you think that if the Cheaters knew Gillislee would be a 3.6 YPC back and have just 1 TD in his last 4 games, they'd have gone after him/given him what they did (even moreso with Gilmore)? They essentially paid Gillislee 3 times what they paid Blount last year, for worse production. And he was a nobody before he joined the Bills. And is going back to being a nobody. I don't see them keeping him next year at this current pace.

[justasportsfan]

Where is the 20 page thread of OP whining about us letting Hogan go to the Pats?

[justasportsfan]

Nevermind. He was all for "risking "a back up receiver ending up with a rival.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Nevermind. He was all for "risking "a back up receiver ending up with a rival.

every decision is always wrong. that's the M.O.

[OpIv37]

No one knows what the future will bring. Do you think that if the Cheaters knew Gillislee would be a 3.6 YPC back and have just 1 TD in his last 4 games, they'd have gone after him/given him what they did (even moreso with Gilmore)? They essentially paid Gillislee 3 times what they paid Blount last year, for worse production. And he was a nobody before he joined the Bills. And is going back to being a nobody. I don't see them keeping him next year at this current pace.

We had a player that worked.
We let him walk without knowing if we would be able to find someone equal or better.
We let him walk knowing with 100% certainty that he was going to a div rival.
We did it to save $3 million that Pegula shoved in his mattress.

If you guys don't see the problems with that, there is no point in continuing this conversation.

[Goobylal]

We had a player that worked.
We let him walk without knowing if we would be able to find someone equal or better.
We let him walk knowing with 100% certainty that he was going to a div rival.
We did it to save $3 million that Pegula shoved in his mattress.

If you guys don't see the problems with that, there is no point in continuing this conversation.

We would have the exact same record with him.
The Cheaters would have the exact same record without him.

[OpIv37]

We would have the exact same record with him.
The Cheaters would have the exact same record without him.

That's nice. It isn't proof that this was a good decision.

[DraftBoy]

We had a player that worked.

We didn't know that. We knew that he had talent and had previously shown some good stints, but this is a new offense and we have no idea what his production would of been in it.

[OpIv37]

We didn't know that. We knew that he had talent and had previously shown some good stints, but this is a new offense and we have no idea what his production would of been in it.

Ok but that same logic applies to anyone we would get to replace him. Ew coach, new offense, different QB and OL...

[DraftBoy]

Ok but that same logic applies to anyone we would get to replace him. Ew coach, new offense, different QB and OL...

Yes, assuming the replacement player had no history with the new staff/system which Tolbert did not.

[OpIv37]

Yes, assuming the replacement player had no history with the new staff/system which Tolbert did not.
But it's not the same exact system and it's entirely different personnel.

[DraftBoy]

But it's not the same exact system and it's entirely different personnel.

True.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Gee, when I go look at the stats, I see...

http://m.espn.com/nfl/leagueleaders?groupId=9&season=2017&seasonType=2&statgroup=rushing

14. Mike Gillislee, 69 att., 246 yds., 3.6 yds/att., 4 tds.

17. L. McCoy, 68 att., 216 yds., 3.2 yds/att., 0 tds.


Plus, I've seen NE ask Gillislee to run into the teeth of an 8 man box numerous times, while McCoy hasnt been asked to do that.

[Historian]

They sure could have used him yesterday.

[stuckincincy]

They sure could have used him yesterday.

For what?

This season with NE, he's got 69 carries for 246 yards, averaging 3.6 ypc.

[stuckincincy]

They sure could have used him yesterday.

For what?

This season with NE, he's got 69 carries for 246 yards, averaging 3.6 ypc.

:p:

[swiper]

For what?

This season with NE, he's got 69 carries for 246 yards, averaging 3.6 ypc.

I have him sitting the pines on my fantasy league. He scored a couple of touchdowns in the Patriots first game putting up good fantasy points, but since then nothing. He has had only 12 carries a game for the past 3 games in a row.

He was not a big loss.

[Wally The Barber]

They traded him so you could write a thread that stays on the front page for 5 weeks

[Mr. Pink]

Gee, when I go look at the stats, I see...

http://m.espn.com/nfl/leagueleaders?groupId=9&season=2017&seasonType=2&statgroup=rushing

14. Mike Gillislee, 69 att., 246 yds., 3.6 yds/att., 4 tds.

17. L. McCoy, 68 att., 216 yds., 3.2 yds/att., 0 tds.


Plus, I've seen NE ask Gillislee to run into the teeth of an 8 man box numerous times, while McCoy hasnt been asked to do that.

Mike Tolbert 37 att 135 yards 3.6 ypa 1 TD

Gillislee would have done the same here as Tolbert has done.

Or are we now changing the bar to we should have just let McCoy go instead?

[Mr. Pink]

Apparently Belichick thinks it matters...

- - - Updated - - -




Fun to always look back on comments like this. A third of the season done and the Pats are 1st in passing and 18th in rushing.

Tell me how much running matters to Belichick again!

[CommissarSpartacus]

Fun to always look back on comments like this. A third of the season done and the Pats are 1st in passing and 18th in rushing.

Tell me how much running matters to Belichick again!

So what?

The defense was so bad, it forced Brady to throw the ball more often than they'd like to.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Mike Tolbert 37 att 135 yards 3.6 ypa 1 TD

Gillislee would have done the same here as Tolbert has done.

Or are we now changing the bar to we should have just let McCoy go instead?

The Pats don't claim they want or have a great rushing attack.

The Bills do.

And yet Gillislee is doing better than BOTH McCoy and Tolbert.

I would have rather packaged McCoy and Tie-rod and traded for a qb and kept Gillislee as the #1 back.

[swiper]

The Pats don't claim they want or have a great rushing attack.

The Bills do.

And yet Gillislee is doing better than BOTH McCoy and Tolbert.

I would have rather packaged McCoy and Tie-rod and traded for a qb and kept Gillislee as the #1 back.

Ummm. No.