Tyrod Taylor: season 3

[Arm of Harm]

Below are Tyrod's passing yardage totals for each of the games thus far this season.

Week 1 (Jets): 224
Week 2 (Panthers): 125
Week 3 (Broncos): 213
Week 4 (Falcons): 182
Week 5 (Bengals): 166

Overall, Taylor has 5 starts and 910 passing yards, for an average of 182 yards per start. I compare that to Trent Edwards (http://www.nfl.com/player/trentedwards/2507189/profile). In his main year as a starter, Edwards had 2699 passing yards in 14 starts, for an average of 193 yards per start. We're actually seeing a bit less production from the passing game now than we did when Edwards was in his heyday. On the other hand, Tyrod clearly has much faster feet than Edwards. So there's that.

As a passer, Tyrod has not been outproducing Trent Edwards. Tyrod's supporting cast is in may ways lacking, but the exact same could be said, even more strongly, about the supporting cast Edwards had. So is the lack of production because Tyrod is in a funk? Is it because he's faced a lot of good defenses this season? Or do we simply need to resign ourselves to getting about the same passing production from Tyrod that we'd expect from Trent Edwards?

[Skooby]

Here’s a theory, Tyrod is a back-up starting in the NFL & isn’t going to play consistent enough to win us a lot of games unless he runs a lot. Pocket passer scheme with a happy feet QB, what can go wrong ??

[swiper]

Meanwhile the aging Tom Brady has had 3 consecutive 300+ yard passing games. Two of which his non-throwing shoulder was listed as sprained. The beat goes on.

I think McDermott will play Taylor long enough to show him the respect a pro is due, but I don't expect him to let him go forever with those numbers. The question is what is the point that the coach "can't take it any more." The fans have clearly reached that point.

[YardRat]

Why is Trent Edwards the benchmark?

[YardRat]

121 yards rushing...0 tds. 2016 = 168 and 1 after 5 games.

He's not a QB...he's a RB that can throw a little bit. If you are going to play him, he needs to run...not pass.

[baalworship]

Bills offense is 2nd worst in the NFL at 4.35 Yards Per Play. Passing Offense is 165 yards per game, Bottom 5.

But Tyrod is the QB McDermott and Dennison wanted. It's on them to make it work. So far it has been a disaster.

[Mahdi]

Tyrod's problem is that he isn't being true to his talent.

He's a menace to opposing defenses when he runs and he for some reason is trying to prove that he is a pure pocket passer when he isn't, it's not a coincidence that his best games last year as a passer had him rushing for 40, 50 and 60 yards.

[Homegrown]

McDermott will play Taylor long enough to show him the respect a pro is due..

Huh? ....what the heck does that mean? ... The guy's had one 300 yard passing game in 34 starts with the Bills - how long does this "respect" go on for?

You make sound like McD is dating a virgin nubile, and planning to get ****ed by patiently respecting her.

[swiper]

Huh? ....what the heck does that mean? ... The guy's had one 300 yard passing game in 34 starts with the Bills - how long does this "respect" go on for?

You make sound like McD is dating a virgin nubile, and planning to get ****ed by patiently respecting her.

If you don't understand, then I can't help you.

[Kenny]

Tyrod's problem is that he isn't being true to his talent.
He's a menace to opposing defenses when he runs and he for some reason is trying to prove that he is a pure pocket passer when he isn't, it's not a coincidence that his best games last year as a passer had him rushing for 40, 50 and 60 yards.

This!
I get the ATL game, where they basically put a spy on him the entire game. But there was no spy in the CIN game. Not sure if it's TT trying to prove a point, or if it's Dennison trying to keep in the pocket, but something is really off this year.

[Mace]

But Tyrod is the QB McDermott and Dennison wanted.

For any kind of necessary perspective, it should be :

"Tyrod is the usable QB McDermott and Dennison wanted as a competitive bridge to a future QB."

Is it working ? Well, they're 3-2 as a team with obvious holes.

Considering the receiver situation, and the OL situation, a QB who plants in the pocket is going to get nailed even more than Taylor's 18 sacks. A more proficient passer is going to be more handicapped by the receivers. A less disciplined QB is going to turn the ball over much more. That can easily flip that 3-2 to 1-4, with a demoralized defense performing less capably.

A truly elite QB can even be handicapped by bad receivers and a poor o-line, we've seen it with Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, etc through the years. But I want an elite QB NOW ! There isn't one. We didn't get one previously ! Now is now, the 2018 draft is in 2018.

It's pretty apparent that Taylor isn't in their long term plans unless he lights it up, which he can't, so he won't be. The coaching staff is working on trying to use him best, they did this successfully against Atlanta and Denver, a pair of high end defenses. It's probably going to go like this for the better part of the year, success and failure, work the basic offense for player familiarity, tweak as you go for Taylor.

This team isn't a contender right now. Sure the offense is aggravating. But no one needs to aggravate themselves more by thinking this is the long term vision of it.

Or I don't know, maybe people do need to aggravate themselves more.

[Mouldsie]

I think it's mostly coaching. Tyrod's rushing average is half what it was the first 2 seasons.

His yards per completion stats are also wildly different when you look at them with or without Sammy in the lineup during his time here... that's not unusual either even the great Tom Brady has a very different looking stat line with and without Gronk. Those who argue that Sammy sucks are only making the case stronger that weapons matter because even a "bad" player like him being on the field had a large positive effect on the passing offense. Zay Jones is nowhere close to Watkins in talent.

Tyrod being an average QB isn't helped when he has a below average OL, far far below average WR's, and (now without Clay) far below average TE's.... PLUS a coach not using his players or his QB at what they do best (power blocking schemes, deep ball passing, read-option, misdirection). Tyrod, and thus the offense, would look entirely different and more effective if we had an offensive coach mind like Andy Reid on staff. One good thing about TT is he can actually mask the fact that you have ****ty pass catchers and pass blocking if you use his legs more in the gameplan. A pocket passer might look even worse back there under constant duress with players who struggle to get open or catch contested balls.

[baalworship]

For any kind of necessary perspective, it should be :

"Tyrod is the usable QB McDermott and Dennison wanted as a competitive bridge to a future QB."

Is it working ? Well, they're 3-2 as a team with obvious holes.

Considering the receiver situation, and the OL situation, a QB who plants in the pocket is going to get nailed even more than Taylor's 18 sacks. A more proficient passer is going to be more handicapped by the receivers. A less disciplined QB is going to turn the ball over much more. That can easily flip that 3-2 to 1-4, with a demoralized defense performing less capably.

A truly elite QB can even be handicapped by bad receivers and a poor o-line, we've seen it with Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, etc through the years. But I want an elite QB NOW ! There isn't one. We didn't get one previously ! Now is now, the 2018 draft is in 2018.

It's pretty apparent that Taylor isn't in their long term plans unless he lights it up, which he can't, so he won't be. The coaching staff is working on trying to use him best, they did this successfully against Atlanta and Denver, a pair of high end defenses. It's probably going to go like this for the better part of the year, success and failure, work the basic offense for player familiarity, tweak as you go for Taylor.

This team isn't a contender right now. Sure the offense is aggravating. But no one needs to aggravate themselves more by thinking this is the long term vision of it.

Or I don't know, maybe people do need to aggravate themselves more.

McDermott passed on Deshawn Watson and Patrick Mahomes. You don't get elite QB's by passing on very good QB prospects and trotting out other team's backups. As for their long term plan, who knows. I don't think it's obvious they are drafting a QB high in 2018. If McDermott's team falters down the stretch he will be tempted to keep playing a veteran QB. Most coaches have no desire to draft and develop a QB. The problem is that McDermott has say in personnel. Beane was hired to serve him.

[BillyT92679]

I think it's mostly coaching. Tyrod's rushing average is half what it was the first 2 seasons.

His yards per completion stats are also wildly different when you look at them with or without Sammy in the lineup during his time here... that's not unusual either even the great Tom Brady has a very different looking stat line with and without Gronk. Those who argue that Sammy sucks are only making the case stronger that weapons matter because even a "bad" player like him being on the field had a large positive effect on the passing offense. Zay Jones is nowhere close to Watkins in talent.

Tyrod being an average QB isn't helped when he has a below average OL, far far below average WR's, and (now without Clay) far below average TE's.... PLUS a coach not using his players or his QB at what they do best (power blocking schemes, deep ball passing, read-option, misdirection). Tyrod, and thus the offense, would look entirely different and more effective if we had an offensive coach mind like Andy Reid on staff. One good thing about TT is he can actually mask the fact that you have ****ty pass catchers and pass blocking if you use his legs more in the gameplan. A pocket passer might look even worse back there under constant duress with players who struggle to get open or catch contested balls.
I don't agree. In a real sense I feel that Tyrod got PROTECTED by McBeane by taking away his weapons. I worry that anyone can make the excuse "well look at what he had!" as an argument to keep Tyrod beyond this year, though his numbers aren't really empirically different than when he had better talent around him.

He's 2-16 when down by 4 or more at any point during the game... that stretches back to having Sammy and Goodwin and a healthy Clay and healthy Harvin and Woods. So he's the same regardless of the supporting cast.

[BillyT92679]

The Trent Edwards comparison is spot on. Safe, boring, uninteresting football. 7-9 all over again.

[EDS]

At least Tyrod is consistent. He basically has been the same QB for closing in on 2.5 years now. Seems like the switch in offense does not change what he delivers. At this point the Bills brass should have all the information they need to either commit to him long term or move on.

[Mahdi]

At least Tyrod is consistent. He basically has been the same QB for closing in on 2.5 years now. Seems like the switch in offense does not change what he delivers. At this point the Bills brass should have all the information they need to either commit to him long term or move on.

Tyrod was a threat last season this year there is a very simple defensive game plan that keeps him in check...

This year's coaching staff so far has managed to fix the defense simply by getting players that fit their system, however, they have done the opposite with the offense.

They have put a system in place that forces Tyrod to be exactly what he is not, on time and accurate. Last season he was playing in an offense that forced defenses to respect the option run, backside runs and scrambles. The only thing they have installed that works for TT is the play-action rollouts.

Our offensive coaches are pretty much doing to the offense what Rex did with the defense last season.

[justasportsfan]

You know your QB is nothing more than a back up when he is being compared to Capt. Checkdown.

[justasportsfan]

I think I need to make a call to Brandon Beane and Tampa's GM and do the Buddy Nix thing. :phone:

[Mouldsie]

So he's the same regardless of the supporting cast.
But he's not? His passing yards per game, TD's, TD/INT ratio, YPC, and YPA all increased when he had the WR corps of Sammy, Woods, Goodwin, Harvin, Clay that you referenced.

I'm never sure what people are arguing in Tyrod threads. Do we want to draft a better QB? You bet! Can we do that in October? I don't believe so. Do we want to win games? Who the **** knows.... but if so then my argument is maybe we change the things we can change to be more effective? Purposely not scoring more points when you're capable of it (Dennison/McBeane) is just as dumb as purposely giving up more points than you should (Rex/Rob/Donnie/Whaley)

[Mr. Pink]

The funny part is people still defend that bum.

[Arm of Harm]

Why is Trent Edwards the benchmark?

Because it's generally acknowledged that Edwards was inadequate. After leaving the Bills, he bounced around the league a couple years. Then he exited the NFL, due to being unable to make anyone's final roster. This, in what should have been the prime of his career.

Maybe NFL teams were overly harsh in evaluating Edwards. I find it difficult to believe he was objectively worse than literally every backup and third string QB in the NFL. That said, if a QB can't outproduce Edwards, there's something wrong.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Does Tyrod suck? Pretty much yes. The question is is Peterman any better and when do we pull the trigger to find out? I do not think Peterman is particularly better but that is because I have only seen him against backups in pre season. If you want Peterman fine and good, but you probably are not going to see him until Tyrod goes down with injury or we miss the playoffs.

[imbondz]

I always thought Edwards play went downhill after that horrible hit / concussion he suffered in Arizona. Before that I thought he was good.

[baalworship]

This talk of Edwards getting hit in the head made me pull up this https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2008.htm

Bills offensive coordinator Turk Schonert. Trent Edwards and JP Losman were the QBs. Dick Jauron head coach.

Bills Offensive Rankings 23rd points for, 25th yards 2008

Bills Offensive Rankings 24th points for, 31st yards 2017

[Mouldsie]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">All you need to know about every starting QB in the NFL<a href="https://t.co/NyxKnjDAwc">https://t.co/NyxKnjDAwc</a> <a href="https://t.co/4Sncve7HW7">pic.twitter.com/4Sncve7HW7</a></p>&mdash; Pro Football Focus (@PFF) <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF/status/918268985476632576?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 12, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[stuckincincy]

I always thought Edwards play went downhill after that horrible hit / concussion he suffered in Arizona. Before that I thought he was good.

He was good, before.

Got a hard hit from the Cards' Adrian Wilson.

Post Concussion Syndrome is a fact.

[Mace]

McDermott passed on Deshawn Watson and Patrick Mahomes. You don't get elite QB's by passing on very good QB prospects and trotting out other team's backups. As for their long term plan, who knows. I don't think it's obvious they are drafting a QB high in 2018. If McDermott's team falters down the stretch he will be tempted to keep playing a veteran QB. Most coaches have no desire to draft and develop a QB. The problem is that McDermott has say in personnel. Beane was hired to serve him.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Beane and McDermott appear to have a unified plan. and it looks real obvious to me that Taylor is a temp meant to competitively transition, which he's doing. I'm not really sure how you figure Watson and Mahomes are long term better than Peterman from this draft, or whoever we haven't drafted yet from next year after 5 games, but very often, in fact most conclusively often, you don't get elite QB's either by drafting them high for the sake of drafting them high because you're desperate and if you do you probably blow a pick you could use on someone with clear promise like CB White. That's what costs you years of production from players that can add something long term over an airball maybe. Actually, who are the last 5 "elite" QB's drafted, you're going to go back over a decade.

They simply didn't draft a QB early because the staff saw a different bunch of holes to address on the path to a plan. Again, is it working ? They're second seed in the AFC, if tentative after 5 games. That's more than I expected, after 5 games. Are Watson and Mahomes that good 5 games into their careers ? Absolutely no way to tell, same as there's absolutely no way to tell if "the plan" will work.

Does drafting Watson or Mahomes beat Denver and Atlanta behind a bad o-line with no receivers, with the QB's in new systems ? I don't think so. We aren't prepared to run a spread variation, and we don't intend to.

This isn't the offense long term, it's the working copy. Is Taylor the long term guy ? They've conclusively not said that.

So what's the point of saying Taylor is holding us back with no receivers and a problem o-line ? Because rookies Watson and Mahomes would surely do better without receivers and a problem o-line, without having White at CB to help the defense, because we could have at CB...some other guy who would have done as well in later rounds.

If "the plan" doesn't work, it's going to take more than 5 games to see it, and again, after 5 games we're the AFC second seed with wins over Denver and Atlanta. Completed team, no. They've said as much.

[Arm of Harm]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Beane and McDermott appear to have a unified plan. and it looks real obvious to me that Taylor is a temp meant to competitively transition, which he's doing. I'm not really sure how you figure Watson and Mahomes are long term better than Peterman from this draft, or whoever we haven't drafted yet from next year after 5 games, but very often, in fact most conclusively often, you don't get elite QB's either by drafting them high for the sake of drafting them high because you're desperate and if you do you probably blow a pick you could use on someone with clear promise like CB White. That's what costs you years of production from players that can add something long term over an airball maybe. Actually, who are the last 5 "elite" QB's drafted, you're going to go back over a decade.

They simply didn't draft a QB early because the staff saw a different bunch of holes to address on the path to a plan. Again, is it working ? They're second seed in the AFC, if tentative after 5 games. That's more than I expected, after 5 games. Are Watson and Mahomes that good 5 games into their careers ? Absolutely no way to tell, same as there's absolutely no way to tell if "the plan" will work.

Does drafting Watson or Mahomes beat Denver and Atlanta behind a bad o-line with no receivers, with the QB's in new systems ? I don't think so. We aren't prepared to run a spread variation, and we don't intend to.

This isn't the offense long term, it's the working copy. Is Taylor the long term guy ? They've conclusively not said that.

So what's the point of saying Taylor is holding us back with no receivers and a problem o-line ? Because rookies Watson and Mahomes would surely do better without receivers and a problem o-line, without having White at CB to help the defense, because we could have at CB...some other guy who would have done as well in later rounds.

If "the plan" doesn't work, it's going to take more than 5 games to see it, and again, after 5 games we're the AFC second seed with wins over Denver and Atlanta. Completed team, no. They've said as much.


My understanding is that the Bills didn't draft a QB in this most recent draft, because they felt the QBs would be better next year than this year. Next year at this time, we could be talking about our bright, shiny first round rookie QB.

With the Peterman selection, they seemingly emphasized accuracy and information processing more than physical tools. I hope they do the same thing with the first round QB they will (hopefully) be drafting next year.

Would this quarterback immediately generate additional wins? I don't know. Derek Carr had a weak, disappointing rookie year. His second year was significantly better, and by year 3 he was playing as well or better than Jim Kelly. If our rookie QB's career follows a similar trajectory I'd be delighted.

In the meantime we have to make do with Taylor. I trust the Bills' front office is smart enough to realize he's not a long-term answer, and is a stopgap solution only.

[YardRat]

Tyrod was a threat last season this year there is a very simple defensive game plan that keeps him in check...
This year's coaching staff so far has managed to fix the defense simply by getting players that fit their system, however, they have done the opposite with the offense.
They have put a system in place that forces Tyrod to be exactly what he is not, on time and accurate. Last season he was playing in an offense that forced defenses to respect the option run, backside runs and scrambles. The only thing they have installed that works for TT is the play-action rollouts.
Our offensive coaches are pretty much doing to the offense what Rex did with the defense last season.

How is this season different from 2016 when the Ravens laid the blueprint of 'make him be a QB' in the very first game?

[kishoph]

How is this season different from 2016 when the Ravens laid the blueprint of 'make him be a QB' in the very first game?

Who would of known that better than John Harbaugh, who coached Taylor for 4 years.

[baalworship]

My understanding is that the Bills didn't draft a QB in this most recent draft, because they felt the QBs would be better next year than this year. Next year at this time, we could be talking about our bright, shiny first round rookie QB.

With the Peterman selection, they seemingly emphasized accuracy and information processing more than physical tools. I hope they do the same thing with the first round QB they will (hopefully) be drafting next year.

Would this quarterback immediately generate additional wins? I don't know. Derek Carr had a weak, disappointing rookie year. His second year was significantly better, and by year 3 he was playing as well or better than Jim Kelly. If our rookie QB's career follows a similar trajectory I'd be delighted.

In the meantime we have to make do with Taylor. I trust the Bills' front office is smart enough to realize he's not a long-term answer, and is a stopgap solution only.

I am sure the Raiders are glad they took Derek Carr in a not as good 2014 class, rather than wait for 2015. Waiting for the next year only makes sense if you are confident in having a top 2 pick. Otherwise, you can't pass on good QB prospects when they are on the board. Both Mahomes and Watson would have been the best QB prospects the Bills have drafted in the last 20 years.

The idea that the Bills are waiting on 2018 came from Sal Capaccio. He just made the whole 2018 thing up out of whole cloth as he was trying to justify why the Bills had passed on top QB's again. I think the most likely explanation for what happened is that the Bills had a defensive coordinator, now Head Coach filling holes in the roster through the draft. 2017 Bills draft was low upside, draft for needs. Lose a corner, draft a corner. Lose a WR, draft a WR. Need a RT, draft a RT. Need a backup QB, draft a backup QB.

Now we will have a long time to scout the 2018 QB's. But from what I have seen so far, the 2018 class was overhyped and the 2017 draft class was underrated by the Kipers and Mayocks.

[Mahdi]

How is this season different from 2016 when the Ravens laid the blueprint of 'make him be a QB' in the very first game?

That is the point I'm making, when they force you to be a QB, become a running back, which is what he did when he knew he needed a great performance.

Monday night against Seattle for example. This season he is sitting in the pocket which is bad for a QB who has very poor pocket awareness and feel.

[YardRat]

That is the point I'm making, when they force you to be a QB, become a running back, which is what he did when he knew he needed a great performance.

Monday night against Seattle for example. This season he is sitting in the pocket which is bad for a QB who has very poor pocket awareness and feel.
Yeah, but you made it sound like it's a new thing this year, with this staff. That's how I read it, anyway.

[Novacane]

I've already mentally moved on from Tyrod. Year 3 is just proving he is who we thought he was. This will be his last year in Buffalo.

[Mouldsie]

That is the point I'm making, when they force you to be a QB, become a running back, which is what he did when he knew he needed a great performance.

Monday night against Seattle for example. This season he is sitting in the pocket which is bad for a QB who has very poor pocket awareness and feel.

31st in the NFL in time to throw. Def need to get it out faster... def need to get WR's open faster. Of course scrambles also inflate that number. He's #2 in elusiveness in the pocket behind Rodgers (who is 27th)

[Arm of Harm]

I am sure the Raiders are glad they took Derek Carr in a not as good 2014 class, rather than wait for 2015. Waiting for the next year only makes sense if you are confident in having a top 2 pick. Otherwise, you can't pass on good QB prospects when they are on the board. Both Mahomes and Watson would have been the best QB prospects the Bills have drafted in the last 20 years.

The idea that the Bills are waiting on 2018 came from Sal Capaccio. He just made the whole 2018 thing up out of whole cloth as he was trying to justify why the Bills had passed on top QB's again. I think the most likely explanation for what happened is that the Bills had a defensive coordinator, now Head Coach filling holes in the roster through the draft. 2017 Bills draft was low upside, draft for needs. Lose a corner, draft a corner. Lose a WR, draft a WR. Need a RT, draft a RT. Need a backup QB, draft a backup QB.

Now we will have a long time to scout the 2018 QB's. But from what I have seen so far, the 2018 class was overhyped and the 2017 draft class was underrated by the Kipers and Mayocks.

Had I been in McDermott's place, I wouldn't have bet the farm on either Watson or Mahomes. (Though I suspect Mahomes will be the better of the two.) But hey, I could be wrong about them.

If the Bills fail to draft a QB early in the 2018 draft, you'll be proved right. I certainly have no objection to you being proved right as a general principle. But in this particular instance, I'll be hoping against hope that you'll be proved wrong. That the Bills will use a first round pick to take a QB with excellent accuracy and information processing ability. Should that happen, I'll feel really good about this team, its long-term direction, and the competence of the people running it.

[BillsFanCupp38]

To his credit he has played very tough defenses. Atlanta's D was the worse and the others are top 5 defenses in Car, Den, and Cin.

[baalworship]

Had I been in McDermott's place, I wouldn't have bet the farm on either Watson or Mahomes. (Though I suspect Mahomes will be the better of the two.) But hey, I could be wrong about them.

If the Bills fail to draft a QB early in the 2018 draft, you'll be proved right. I certainly have no objection to you being proved right as a general principle. But in this particular instance, I'll be hoping against hope that you'll be proved wrong. That the Bills will use a first round pick to take a QB with excellent accuracy and information processing ability. Should that happen, I'll feel really good about this team, its long-term direction, and the competence of the people running it.

Other teams want QB's too. Now you have Rivers, Manning, Roethlisberger all running on fumes. Just wanting a QB is not a plan. You need to POUNCE when an opportunity arises. We'll see what happens but just drafting another Peterman or some late round flyer is not acceptable.

If the Bills pass on very good prospects AGAIN in 2018 and bring back Tyrod Taylor again I will not bother to watch the games next year.

[Jan Reimers]

Why is Trent Edwards the benchmark?

Because J.P. Losman wasn't available?

[The Jokeman]

That chart is a good reason why you can't always look at numbers for analysis. Because if you look at Tyrod you can see the reason he struggles is he holds onto the bar too long. In other words he's not quick to read the defense and as a result he either ends up taking a sack or dumps it off to LeSean McCoy or goes off running. He's a glorified RG III/Doug Flutie clone yet unlike RGIII he seems to avoid big hits either because he has a good idea of feeling pressure or just knows how to take a hit or run safely. He's an above average backup but a marginal or below average starting QB IMHO.

[baalworship]

Tyrod Taylor 1st in TO worthy throw percentage. That's because he doesn't play to win the game. Mcdermott and Rex loved Tyrod because he didn't throw picks. What these conservative defensive coaches don't get is that a 3 and out is a turnover. And Tyrod has the Bills near the top of the league in Punts.