The Pegula's Blew A Huge Opportunity To Make The Buffalo Bills, "America's Team"

[BillsImpossible]

The Buffalo Bills are the only team in the NFL that wear the Red, White and Blue colors so prominent as the US Flag.

The Patriots and Giants don the Colors in minimal fashion, but they're nothing like the Buffalo Bills true Red, White and Blue.

What could have been....

Instead of taking a stand with a powerful and heavy pair of balls, the Pegula's took a weak knee and bowed down to the NFL's politically correct altar.

Jerry Jones recently said that any Cowboy that takes a knee on Sunday during the National Anthem will not play.

If he stays true to his word, I'm going to become a fan of the Dallas Cowboys.

No other owner in the NFL has had the balls to stand up for what's right. That is smart business.

Jerry Jones is listening to his customers, the NFL is not.

If Terry Pegula said, "We are America's team, our Buffalo Bills wear the Red, White and Blue proudly, and any player that takes a knee during the National Anthem will be replaced by a player with more heart and respect for our country," the Buffalo Bills would be America's Team right now and this forum would have a hell of a lot more viewers than it currently has.

In previous years I've noticed a slight drop off in viewers during the bye week, but less than 100 viewers with a 3-2 team that could be 5-0 if Zay Jones caught a pass and Kyle Williams didn't get penalized for defensive holding on 3rd down?

Unheard of.

Terry and Kim Pegula f'd up, royally.

Never in my life have I been so disappointed to be a fan of the Buffalo Bills.

I love the NFL, but the NFL can give a hoot about me, my friends, and my family that has loyally supported the league for so long.

The Pegula's made a calculated moove that followed 30 other franchise cows off a cliff.

[Albany,n.y.]

I've never been so disappointed reading a post by a Bills fan as the one above in all my life .

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Who gives a flying ****? When you became a marine you took an oath to defend the constitution. You might wanna read that first amendment. Turns out, you served to defend their right to protest. You don't have to agree with what, why, or how they are protesting but it is their constitutional right. As for promoting the team, well there the key is not we are Mercuh's team, no it will be so much better for the brand if it stays in every game, wins most of them, the team makes the playoffs, and the players stay clean, then trust me they will have no need for paid for nationalism

- - - Updated - - -


I've never been so disappointed reading a post by a Bills fan as the one above in all my life .

Don't read a lot of the spin zone threads do ya?

[Oaf]

I would love to see more than a few Cowboys call JJ on his bluff.

[sahlensguy]

The Buffalo Bills are the only team in the NFL that wear the Red, White and Blue colors so prominent as the US Flag.

The Patriots and Giants don the Colors in minimal fashion, but they're nothing like the Buffalo Bills true Red, White and Blue.

What could have been....

Instead of taking a stand with a powerful and heavy pair of balls, the Pegula's took a weak knee and bowed down to the NFL's politically correct altar.

Jerry Jones recently said that any Cowboy that takes a knee on Sunday during the National Anthem will not play.

If he stays true to his word, I'm going to become a fan of the Dallas Cowboys.

No other owner in the NFL has had the balls to stand up for what's right. That is smart business.

Jerry Jones is listening to his customers, the NFL is not.

If Terry Pegula said, "We are America's team, our Buffalo Bills wear the Red, White and Blue proudly, and any player that takes a knee during the National Anthem will be replaced by a player with more heart and respect for our country," the Buffalo Bills would be America's Team right now and this forum would have a hell of a lot more viewers than it currently has.

In previous years I've noticed a slight drop off in viewers during the bye week, but less than 100 viewers with a 3-2 team that could be 5-0 if Zay Jones caught a pass and Kyle Williams didn't get penalized for defensive holding on 3rd down?

Unheard of.

Terry and Kim Pegula f'd up, royally.

Never in my life have I been so disappointed to be a fan of the Buffalo Bills.

I love the NFL, but the NFL can give a hoot about me, my friends, and my family that has loyally supported the league for so long.

The Pegula's made a calculated moove that followed 30 other franchise cows off a cliff.

Russ Brandon says boner jamz.

[Skooby]

I haven’t been watching all the extra games I used too because I’d rather not be forced to be subjected to social opinions. If I wanted other people’s opinions I’d star in a movie, probably names IPutz. It’s about a robot that just simply is a putz all the time, think MST3000 without the humor. Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about.

[swiper]

Those players are going to sue Jerry Jones because they have a Constitutional right to do what they want with regards to kneeling. Jones cannot force them to stand. It's in the Constitution.

[sudzy]

Those players are going to sue Jerry Jones because they have a Constitutional right to do what they want with regards to kneeling. Jones cannot force them to stand. It's in the Constitution.
You forget these players are employees of the team. Employers have the right to tell an employee how to dress and how to conduct themselves on the job. You have the right to tell someone to "go to hell" on the jobsite. Your employer has the right to discipline or fire you for those actions.

[jamze132]

I think Jerry Jones is going to come under a lot of fire if one of his players kneels and then gets benched. Regardless of where you stand on the issue, players are citizens who have rights protected by the first amendment. A rich white guy cant override that.

[sudzy]

Those players are going to sue Jerry Jones because they have a Constitutional right to do what they want with regards to kneeling. Jones cannot force them to stand. It's in the Constitution.


I think Jerry Jones is going to come under a lot of fire if one of his players kneels and then gets benched. Regardless of where you stand on the issue, players are citizens who have rights protected by the first amendment. A rich white guy cant override that.

I'm I the only one, with a job, on this board? Go to work on Monday and do your job from the kneeling position and when your boss says something to you, tell him it's your constitutional right. Donald Trump can't do anything about players kneeling, other then run his mouth, because the players have a constitutional right to do it, but, Jones (as their employer) can.

[sudzy]

I would love to see more than a few Cowboys call JJ on his bluff.

Jerry Jones has a great reputation with his players. Look at how far he went to defend Elliot. I'd be surprised if any player went against him.

[The Beef]

Russ Brandon says boner jamz.

Russ Brandon is banned from Boner Jamz. It was coined at the Range during a continued debate during the summer before SJ13's 3rd season. I was pro Stevie, OF Rockets and WagonCircler were trying to flame me for having Boner Jamz for Stevie. SpikedLemonade was a crucial member of said discussion by trolling with an epic series of laughable, yet relevant pictures/images mocking the entire thing.

Stevie blew up his 3rd season , the Boner Jamz were thoroughly raised throughout Bills Nation by the point.

Russ Brandon is a **** sucker who is serving a life time ban from Boner Jamz Nation.

[sahlensguy]

Russ Brandon is banned from Boner Jamz. It was coined at the Range during a continued debate during the summer before SJ13's 3rd season. I was pro Stevie, OF Rockets and WagonCircler were trying to flame me for having Boner Jamz for Stevie. SpikedLemonade was a crucial member of said discussion by trolling with an epic series of laughable, yet relevant pictures/images mocking the entire thing.

Stevie blew up his 3rd season , the Boner Jamz were thoroughly raised throughout Bills Nation by the point.

Russ Brandon is a **** sucker who is serving a life time ban from Boner Jamz Nation.

Thanks for the recount.

[Goobylal]

The NFL went along with the PC crap until they (finally) realized it was hurting their bottom line. They have Trump to thank for taking the role of the jerk and letting them know why their ratings and attendance were down and how to fix it. If the players know what's good for them, they'll go back to standing for the Anthem andd start protesting real issues facing their people, on their own time.

[feldspar]

Those players are going to sue Jerry Jones because they have a Constitutional right to do what they want with regards to kneeling. Jones cannot force them to stand. It's in the Constitution.

I don't think you thought this one through.

I don't see anything that says the benched players won't get payed, if they don't play. Am I missing something? There would be no breach of contract. Any team can bench any player for any reason they want. There is nothing unconstitutional about that.

They can kneel if they want. They just won't play, if this story to be believed. There are no constitutional rights being violated unless there is a breach of contact...I don't see one here.

If they get payed, there is no legal issue whatsoever.

We'll see who wants to push the issue...but for some players, it might be career suicide if Jones follows through and they won't give. Nobody is forcing them to stand...only perfectly constitutional consequences for them if they don't.

[swiper]

You forget these players are employees of the team. Employers have the right to tell an employee how to dress and how to conduct themselves on the job. You have the right to tell someone to "go to hell" on the jobsite. Your employer has the right to discipline or fire you for those actions.

There are limit to that. You cannot tell a person how to walk, talk, breath. So you forget the limits to an employer's right to tell a person what to do. Kneeling or not kneeling for a song is not within the right of the employer to moderate.

The owner has the right to bench or fire whoever he wants. No argument there. But if Dak Prescott starts kneeling guess who's going to win that one. Not Jerry Jones.

[feldspar]

But if Dak Prescott starts kneeling guess who's going to win that one.

Nobody

[Wally The Barber]

The Pegulas are too busy Fracking, please don't wake them up

[Generalissimus Gibby]

The NFL went along with the PC crap until they (finally) realized it was hurting their bottom line. They have Trump to thank for taking the role of the jerk and letting them know why their ratings and attendance were down and how to fix it. If the players know what's good for them, they'll go back to standing for the Anthem andd start protesting real issues facing their people, on their own time.

Wow, this post exceeds the insanity and stupidity of the original. The league is not hurting because of the player protests, which are themselves suggest. The league is hurting because of billion dollar stadiums they are forcing taxpayers to pay for, long and excessive commercial breaks, boring and predictable games, ticket prices that are out of the range of most fans, oversaturation of the product, and overpaid players who don't care about the game. Then there is the head trauma thing, the rapes and crime the players commit, and also the tv deal, why go to the stadium when you can watch the game on your sixty inch tv in your climate controlled living room. There is also Brady gate and the moving of iconic teams like the Raiders (yeah that dumped a lot of **** on a fiercely loyal fanbase. If the league wanted to move a team to LA it should have been the Raiders). I would also suggest that fantasy football has killed overall interest in the game because who wants to watch the entire game of one or two teams when you can just check in on the stat lines of your cellphone Sunday evening or Monday morning on your cellphone. Speaking of cellphones, I am personally miffed because last year I was able to listen to Bills games announced by Coach C, Murphy, and co for free on the Buffalo Bills app, but now I have to pay for the privilige and honestly its not worth it. Speaking of paying, there is overpriced apparel and insanely priced jerseys for players who might noy not even be on the team next year. So yeah, the flag thing - an entirely manufactured controvery - might be making a dent in ratings but it's alas only a small part of a much bigger problem the NFL has.

Moving on, if they know what's good for them? Well, they do. See, they are young and come from impoverished background and may personally know people affected by the issues that they are protesting.


Real issues? Uh, you do know they are not protesting the flag, the anthem, soldiers, puppies, grandma and apple pie don't you? No, their issues are police brutality and a system that generally sees blacks treated as second class citizens. They are raising awareness of these concerns and hoping for a national dialogue. Just because you do not understand or agree with an issue does not mean it's not a real issue.

Their people? I thought they were Americans like you or me. I mean sure Christian Okoye, Steve Christie, Jan Stenerud, Morten Andersen and others came from other countries but these players are Americans so I don't understand the their people remark.

[Arm of Harm]

Those players are going to sue Jerry Jones because they have a Constitutional right to do what they want with regards to kneeling. Jones cannot force them to stand. It's in the Constitution.

Wrong.

The First Amendment is completely irrelevant here. The First Amendment constraints the behavior of the government. Jerry Jones is not part of the government, and his behavior is not constrained by the First Amendment.

To take another example: the NFL and the networks removed Hank Williams' Monday Night Football song, after Williams (inaccurately) compared Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler. Hank Williams (to my knowledge) made this comparison on his own time. (As opposed to the players, who make their protests while wearing their employers' uniforms, while on the clock, at games televised on behalf of their employers.) Williams' song was removed, and none of his constitutional rights were violated.

Do the NFL and the television networks have the right to censor Williams' anti-Obama (anti-Hitler?) commentary, and to censor the players who'd wanted to show their support for police slain in the line of duty? Yes. Do the NFL and the networks also have the right to not exercise their censorship rights when it comes to players protesting during the national anthem? Also yes. But we as consumers also have rights. The right to act in ways which don't put money into the pockets of the NFL. The right to "cut the cord," so as to avoid putting money into the pockets of television networks or their advertisers.

[baalworship]

So the OP wants the Pegulas to sow dissension in his locker room and create a toxic work environment to satisfy his political views? I bet the Pegulas voted for Trump. They are not so stupid as to do what you recommend. If they took a hardline stance against their own employees the Bills would soon be an EVEN WORSE free agency destination than it already is.

Pegulas did not take anyone's side. They simply wanted to say, "We support our employees and want them to feel free to express themselves."

There are also many fans that would be alienated as well. You can't please everyone so I am sure marketing people figured out better to err on the side of their younger customers than the guys with one foot in the grave. The people upset with the Pegulas are primarily much older. I had a conversation with a good friend that had your point of view but I did point out that he was over 60 and corporations focus on long term customer value. It would hurt his wallet much more if he did what you advocated. Billionaires don't get there by doing stupid things with their money.

[feldspar]

I was sick of this crap from day one, even before it snowballed.

I bet that if you asked the players exactly why they are kneeling, whole bunches of them wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. It's a peer pressure following the crowd type thing now. "We don't like racial inequalities." No ****. Or is it strictly about black people getting shot by cops, like our old pal Kappy stood up for...or maybe DIDN'T stand up for? Or that our out-of-control idiot president tweets? This type behavior will not change anybody's mind, nor will it promote any sort of awareness. It's an exercise in masturbation and annoying that I have to listen to while I'm trying to follow football, which is getting less interesting to me as it is.

[OpIv37]

The Buffalo Bills are the only team in the NFL that wear the Red, White and Blue colors so prominent as the US Flag.

The Patriots and Giants don the Colors in minimal fashion, but they're nothing like the Buffalo Bills true Red, White and Blue.

What could have been....

Instead of taking a stand with a powerful and heavy pair of balls, the Pegula's took a weak knee and bowed down to the NFL's politically correct altar.

Jerry Jones recently said that any Cowboy that takes a knee on Sunday during the National Anthem will not play.

If he stays true to his word, I'm going to become a fan of the Dallas Cowboys.

No other owner in the NFL has had the balls to stand up for what's right. That is smart business.

Jerry Jones is listening to his customers, the NFL is not.

If Terry Pegula said, "We are America's team, our Buffalo Bills wear the Red, White and Blue proudly, and any player that takes a knee during the National Anthem will be replaced by a player with more heart and respect for our country," the Buffalo Bills would be America's Team right now and this forum would have a hell of a lot more viewers than it currently has.

In previous years I've noticed a slight drop off in viewers during the bye week, but less than 100 viewers with a 3-2 team that could be 5-0 if Zay Jones caught a pass and Kyle Williams didn't get penalized for defensive holding on 3rd down?

Unheard of.

Terry and Kim Pegula f'd up, royally.

Never in my life have I been so disappointed to be a fan of the Buffalo Bills.

I love the NFL, but the NFL can give a hoot about me, my friends, and my family that has loyally supported the league for so long.

The Pegula's made a calculated moove that followed 30 other franchise cows off a cliff.

Ya think so? From a business perspective, there's a tried and true way to make money with a sports team: WIN GAMES.

Not putting the best players on the field makes the product they are trying to sell worse.

You think people don't show up now? You think ratings are bad now? Wait til people show up to, say, a Panthers/Falcons game expecting to see Newton and Ryan air it out, and instead they watch them take a seat on the bench while their backups struggle through a 10-7 snooze fest.

News flash: ratings were down long before this kneeling controversy or a variety of reasons. Intentionally making the product worse over a political squabble isn't going to help the Pegulas, the Joneses or the league.

Oh, and learn to use an apostrophe for ****'s sake.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I'm I the only one, with a job, on this board? Go to work on Monday and do your job from the kneeling position and when your boss says something to you, tell him it's your constitutional right. Donald Trump can't do anything about players kneeling, other then run his mouth, because the players have a constitutional right to do it, but, Jones (as their employer) can.

Don't be bitter just because your such a loser you have to take it up the ass from an employer to feed your family.

[CommissarSpartacus]

If the players are "employees", can Jerry Jones demand they sell popcorn and clean out the urinals?

[feldspar]

If the players are "employees", can Jerry Jones demand they sell popcorn and clean out the urinals?

He can bench them and not allow them to play.

Simple true fact, whether you think he SHOULD do that or not.

Not a demand, but more of an ultimatum. A perfectly legal one that has no grey areas. Either they'll play ball, or they'll play ball, if you get my meaning. Now is the trailblazers' big chance to see where their priorities REALLY lie. If they REALLY want to make a statement, let's see what they do...

What would YOU do? Kneel, Neil?

[BillsImpossible]

So the OP wants the Pegulas to sow dissension in his locker room and create a toxic work environment to satisfy his political views?

No, I wanted Kim and Terry Pegula to make the smart business decision and brand the Bills as, "America's Team," by taking a stand for the national anthem.

Simple concept...would have been a brilliant marketing tool, and I think it would have united the team.

Buffalo Bills jerseys would be the hottest item on the sports market right now, the national media would be shining a light on Buffalo, NY and the Bills and their fans would go down in history as the team that saved the NFL from ruin.

Standing up for the Star Spangled Banner is all about showing respect for America and has nothing to do with politics.

Those who kneel are the ones making the national anthem something that it is not - political.

By kneeling during the national anthem, players are making a political statement that is in very poor taste.

I'm all for making political statements, but nobody should ever use the Star Spangled Banner as a vehicle to get their political point across.

President Trump did not make this a political issue, the players that took a knee did.

[BillsImpossible]

I can not believe that less than 100 people are viewing the Bills Zone right now.

Even in late January and February, long after the Bills have been eliminated from the playoffs this board is always busy with at least 200 or more people viewing.

Is this normal for the bye week???

[Generalissimus Gibby]

I can not believe that less than 100 people are viewing the Bills Zone right now.

Even in late January and February, long after the Bills have been eliminated from the playoffs this board is always busy with at least 200 or more people viewing.

Is this normal for the bye week???

Probably. This is a team that has missed the playoffs for 17 straight years and looks like it's going to miss it again and also it's a weekend. Believe it or not, most people have lives and post here at the office. It's Friday and Saturday would you spend all weekend on the zone?

As for the Bills, if they win I assure you the marketing will take care of itself.

[swiper]

Wrong.

The First Amendment is completely irrelevant here. The First Amendment constraints the behavior of the government. Jerry Jones is not part of the government, and his behavior is not constrained by the First Amendment.

To take another example: the NFL and the networks removed Hank Williams' Monday Night Football song, after Williams (inaccurately) compared Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler. Hank Williams (to my knowledge) made this comparison on his own time. (As opposed to the players, who make their protests while wearing their employers' uniforms, while on the clock, at games televised on behalf of their employers.) Williams' song was removed, and none of his constitutional rights were violated.

Do the NFL and the television networks have the right to censor Williams' anti-Obama (anti-Hitler?) commentary, and to censor the players who'd wanted to show their support for police slain in the line of duty? Yes. Do the NFL and the networks also have the right to not exercise their censorship rights when it comes to players protesting during the national anthem? Also yes. But we as consumers also have rights. The right to act in ways which don't put money into the pockets of the NFL. The right to "cut the cord," so as to avoid putting money into the pockets of television networks or their advertisers.

Not wrong douchebag. Jerry Jones cannot stop them form kneeling during a song. If he sits them or fires them b/c that action upsets him, then he is within his right. But one person cannot force another person to do something against their will. Idiot. If the person making the action has signed a contract with wording that has ramifications then the person takes the action knowing what the result will be. Jones still cannot force a player to do something. Idiot.

[swiper]

I can not believe that less than 100 people are viewing the Bills Zone right now.

Even in late January and February, long after the Bills have been eliminated from the playoffs this board is always busy with at least 200 or more people viewing.

Is this normal for the bye week???

Only when you're here actively posting.

[YardRat]

I can not believe that less than 100 people are viewing the Bills Zone right now.
Even in late January and February, long after the Bills have been eliminated from the playoffs this board is always busy with at least 200 or more people viewing.
Is this normal for the bye week???

Probably. This is a team that has missed the playoffs for 17 straight years and looks like it's going to miss it again and also it's a weekend. Believe it or not, most people have lives and post here at the office. It's Friday and Saturday would you spend all weekend on the zone?
As for the Bills, if they win I assure you the marketing will take care of itself.

Plus a few ****ty posters have driven away some others.

[Arm of Harm]

Not wrong douchebag. Jerry Jones cannot stop them form kneeling during a song. If he sits them or fires them b/c that action upsets him, then he is within his right. But one person cannot force another person to do something against their will. Idiot. If the person making the action has signed a contract with wording that has ramifications then the person takes the action knowing what the result will be. Jones still cannot force a player to do something. Idiot.

Your original argument was based on the First Amendment. That argument was incorrect, because Jerry Jones is not a government agent, and is not bound by the restrictions of the First Amendment. Once you realized your original argument was wrong, you substituted a new argument--that one person cannot force another person to do something against his will. And, obviously, you hope that repeatedly calling me an idiot will distract attention from the fact you've replaced your original argument with this new argument.

If you'd had an ounce of intellectual integrity, you would have admitted you were wrong once you'd been shown to be wrong. But rather than man up and do the difficult thing, you chose to do the easy thing.

[baalworship]

No, I wanted Kim and Terry Pegula to make the smart business decision and brand the Bills as, "America's Team," by taking a stand for the national anthem.

Simple concept...would have been a brilliant marketing tool, and I think it would have united the team.

Buffalo Bills jerseys would be the hottest item on the sports market right now, the national media would be shining a light on Buffalo, NY and the Bills and their fans would go down in history as the team that saved the NFL from ruin.

Standing up for the Star Spangled Banner is all about showing respect for America and has nothing to do with politics.

Those who kneel are the ones making the national anthem something that it is not - political.

By kneeling during the national anthem, players are making a political statement that is in very poor taste.

I'm all for making political statements, but nobody should ever use the Star Spangled Banner as a vehicle to get their political point across.

President Trump did not make this a political issue, the players that took a knee did.

Well done.

[sudzy]

If the players are "employees", can Jerry Jones demand they sell popcorn and clean out the urinals?

If they are not employees of the team, then what the hell are they? Volunteers? If they are employees then yes, he can tell them to do that stuff. Although, the union might have something to say about that. Which they will about the kneeling. And he wouldn't do that because the players have the right to quit. But, don't tell me they can't fire you for your actions on the job. A teacher was even fired for posting a picture of herself having a drink on her own time. How is that allowed? Well, it happened. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354515/Teacher-sacked-posting-picture-holding-glass-wine-mug-beer-Facebook.html

[sudzy]

Not wrong douchebag. Jerry Jones cannot stop them form kneeling during a song. If he sits them or fires them b/c that action upsets him, then he is within his right. But one person cannot force another person to do something against their will. Idiot. If the person making the action has signed a contract with wording that has ramifications then the person takes the action knowing what the result will be. Jones still cannot force a player to do something. Idiot.
OK, then. So we basically agree. Your right your employer can't not force something you don't want to, but, he can discipline you for not doing it. Which is what I've been saying from the start. I think Jones' problem will be more with the player's union then the constitution.

[sudzy]

Don't be bitter just because your such a loser you have to take it up the ass from an employer to feed your family.

Sorry, we all can't enjoy the stress free life of public assistance.

[swiper]

Your original argument was based on the First Amendment. That argument was incorrect, because Jerry Jones is not a government agent, and is not bound by the restrictions of the First Amendment.

Yes he is. Go back to school.

[CommissarSpartacus]

He can bench them and not allow them to play.

Simple true fact, whether you think he SHOULD do that or not.

Not a demand, but more of an ultimatum. A perfectly legal one that has no grey areas. Either they'll play ball, or they'll play ball, if you get my meaning. Now is the trailblazers' big chance to see where their priorities REALLY lie. If they REALLY want to make a statement, let's see what they do...

What would YOU do? Kneel, Neil?

Certainly, there is no rule or law that says Jerry Jones has to play anyone. If he wants to put a girl guide troop on the field, he can. So what? That doesn't make the players "employees".

Just like if Harvey Weinstein signs Meryl Streep to star in his latest movie it doesn't make her Harvey's employee. She is a contracted performer, hired to play a part, and doesn't have to sing the national anthem before starting work every day.

And what's the deal with using my real name?

Are you trying to send me a message? Intimidate me for some reason?

We haven't been introduced. I don't know your name. How do you know mine? And why do you think it's clever to use it? It shows I'm not as smart as I think I am? It shows you're a dangerous guy, not to be ****ed with?

[CommissarSpartacus]

Sorry, we all can't enjoy the stress free life of public assistance.

Too bad for you, unless you actually enjoy taking it up the ass.

[CommissarSpartacus]

If they are not employees of the team, then what the hell are they? Volunteers?

They are contracted performers, hired for their unique skills that can be sold to an audience.

It doesn't mean that the person who offered you the contract owns your ass and can make you clean the urinals with your tongue, or stand for the national anthem.

[CommissarSpartacus]

http://time.com/4955623/history-national-anthem-sports-nfl/

BTW, the Star Spangled Banner didn't become the national anthem UNTIL 1931.

[jamze132]

No, I wanted Kim and Terry Pegula to make the smart business decision and brand the Bills as, "America's Team," by taking a stand for the national anthem.

Simple concept...would have been a brilliant marketing tool, and I think it would have united the team.

Buffalo Bills jerseys would be the hottest item on the sports market right now, the national media would be shining a light on Buffalo, NY and the Bills and their fans would go down in history as the team that saved the NFL from ruin.

Standing up for the Star Spangled Banner is all about showing respect for America and has nothing to do with politics.

Those who kneel are the ones making the national anthem something that it is not - political.

By kneeling during the national anthem, players are making a political statement that is in very poor taste.

I'm all for making political statements, but nobody should ever use the Star Spangled Banner as a vehicle to get their political point across.

President Trump did not make this a political issue, the players that took a knee did.

Wouldn’t work. No one outside Buffalo except for some of us that moved away give a **** about the Bills. Hell, it’s been 17 straight years since we’ve made the playoffs. You think because our uni’s are red, white, and blue and if our owner came out and said “murica!”, we’d get new fans and be forever known as ... America’s Team....? Lmao

[sudzy]

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/legal-jerry-jones-bench-players-stand/story?id=50398446


There is, however, a section in the NFL Game Operations Manual that mentions that players "should stand at attention, hold helmets in their left hand and refrain from talking." And commissioner Roger Goodell (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/sports/football/roger-goodell.htm) sent a letter to teams on Tuesday reiterating the language.?



According to a half-dozen experts we contacted, workplace employment law may have the last word. While the experts are divided on who would win such a legal battle, our sample ruled narrowly in favor of the owners.

[CommissarSpartacus]

"Should", not "must" or "are required to".

[CommissarSpartacus]

Think about it.

If Cam Newton and Dak Prescott and Russell Wilson and others take a knee, are their "owners" going to fire them ie. terminate their contracts?

Then what? Will all the other owners go along with it and blackball them from the league?

[sudzy]

Think about it.

If Cam Newton and Dak Prescott and Russell Wilson and others take a knee, are their "owners" going to fire them ie. terminate their contracts?

Then what? Will all the other owners go along with it and blackball them from the league?

No. But, think about it. Your Dak Prescott, you have a bright future with the Dallas Cowboys. Are you going to start it off by blatantly going against your owner? Starting a rift, that who knows what it would turn into? I think Jerry Jones has a good relationship with his players. He's stood behind guys, like Elliot and Bryant, when the media was against them. I would be shocked if any Cowboy kneels next week.

[sudzy]

"Should", not "must" or "are required to".

Did you read the article? It was interesting. Both sides in this thread, think this is "cut and dry" for there point. And it's not. The experts are
divided on who would win such a legal battle, our sample ruled narrowly in favor of the owners.

Proving everyone here doesn't know everything, they think they do. Even the "Great Know-it-all Shiva."

[swiper]

No. But, think about it. Your Dak Prescott, you have a bright future with the Dallas Cowboys. Are you going to start it off by blatantly going against your owner? Starting a rift, that who knows what it would turn into?

Strongly disagree. Going to happen at some point. Already did. Kaepernick knew he was on a downward slide playing-wise and did it anyway. Team stood by him. If Jones wants everybody to stand, he's going to end up paying them off to do so. The world, after all, is all about money. You end up paying for what you want one way or another.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Did you read the article? It was interesting. Both sides in this thread, think this is "cut and dry" for there point. And it's not. The experts are

Proving everyone here doesn't know everything, they think they do. Even the "Great Know-it-all Shiva."

The legal question is irrelevant.

Let's see what happens when the first BLACK player is "fired" for taking a knee.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Strongly disagree. Going to happen at some point. Already did. Kaepernick knew he was on a downward slide playing-wise and did it anyway. Team stood by him. If Jones wants everybody to stand, he's going to end up paying them off to do so. The world, after all, is all about money. You end up paying for what you want one way or another.

How is he going to "pay them off"?

Bribe them?

[feldspar]

Certainly, there is no rule or law that says Jerry Jones has to play anyone. If he wants to put a girl guide troop on the field, he can. So what? That doesn't make the players "employees".

Just like if Harvey Weinstein signs Meryl Streep to star in his latest movie it doesn't make her Harvey's employee. She is a contracted performer, hired to play a part, and doesn't have to sing the national anthem before starting work every day.

I never said they were employees.


And what's the deal with using my real name?

Are you trying to send me a message? Intimidate me for some reason?

We haven't been introduced. I don't know your name. How do you know mine? And why do you think it's clever to use it? It shows I'm not as smart as I think I am? It shows you're a dangerous guy, not to be ****ed with?

I know your first name because I've seen many people use it publicly on these forums in the past. It didn't seem to bother you then...sorry if it bothered you this time. Don't get bent out shape. It wasn't meant to be threatening in any way whatsoever. Relax.

I only used it in the context of when players kneel. Kneel kinda sounds like your first name, no? That's the only thing to it.

Have the mods remove it if you don't want it out there. I meant no offense...I thought you'd be fine with your name being said, since you were before, or seemed to be.

[sudzy]

The legal question is irrelevant.

Let's see what happens when the first BLACK player is "fired" for taking a knee.

The NFL has already put themselves in a lose/lose position.

[swiper]

How is he going to "pay them off"?

Bribe them?

Of course.

- - - Updated - - -


The NFL has already put themselves in a lose/lose position.

Yep. The whole issue can't go away fast enough for me.

[Goobylal]

Wow, this post exceeds the insanity and stupidity of the original. The league is not hurting because of the player protests, which are themselves suggest. The league is hurting because of billion dollar stadiums they are forcing taxpayers to pay for, long and excessive commercial breaks, boring and predictable games, ticket prices that are out of the range of most fans, oversaturation of the product, and overpaid players who don't care about the game. Then there is the head trauma thing, the rapes and crime the players commit, and also the tv deal, why go to the stadium when you can watch the game on your sixty inch tv in your climate controlled living room. There is also Brady gate and the moving of iconic teams like the Raiders (yeah that dumped a lot of **** on a fiercely loyal fanbase. If the league wanted to move a team to LA it should have been the Raiders). I would also suggest that fantasy football has killed overall interest in the game because who wants to watch the entire game of one or two teams when you can just check in on the stat lines of your cellphone Sunday evening or Monday morning on your cellphone. Speaking of cellphones, I am personally miffed because last year I was able to listen to Bills games announced by Coach C, Murphy, and co for free on the Buffalo Bills app, but now I have to pay for the privilige and honestly its not worth it. Speaking of paying, there is overpriced apparel and insanely priced jerseys for players who might noy not even be on the team next year. So yeah, the flag thing - an entirely manufactured controvery - might be making a dent in ratings but it's alas only a small part of a much bigger problem the NFL has.

Moving on, if they know what's good for them? Well, they do. See, they are young and come from impoverished background and may personally know people affected by the issues that they are protesting.


Real issues? Uh, you do know they are not protesting the flag, the anthem, soldiers, puppies, grandma and apple pie don't you? No, their issues are police brutality and a system that generally sees blacks treated as second class citizens. They are raising awareness of these concerns and hoping for a national dialogue. Just because you do not understand or agree with an issue does not mean it's not a real issue.

Their people? I thought they were Americans like you or me. I mean sure Christian Okoye, Steve Christie, Jan Stenerud, Morten Andersen and others came from other countries but these players are Americans so I don't understand the their people remark.

Yeah, no. All those excuses you listed are nothing new for the league as they have been happening for years. The decline in ratings coincided with Kaepernick's protest. Whether you choose to accept that or not is immaterial to me. It just makes me laugh considering your opening sentence.

As for "their people," yes, the original protest was over cops killing black people, not all Americans. But it's far easier to find a scapegoat and ignore the real problems that exist.

[Novacane]

The Pegulas should stick to drilling wells. They suck at running sports franchises.

[BillsImpossible]

Now that the NFL is no longer showing the national anthem on television, I presume that the next time the Star Spangled Banner is played on live TV will be during Super Bowl 52 in Minnesota.

Who's going to sing that one?

Back to the subject...

NFL protests 2017: What's happening during Week 6?
https://www.sbnation.com/2017/10/15/16466880/nfl-protests-2017-week-6?yptr=yahoo

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2J7z8M7inTezzqlK7ynaEuLoWJA=/0x0:4707x3276/1200x800/filters:focal(1978x1352:2730x2104)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/57137493/usa_today_10303266.0.jpg


<aside id="uo6KQ8" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: inherit; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 17px; line-height: 27.2px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; color: rgb(30, 30, 30); white-space: normal;">Lance Kendricks says Puerto Rico response led him to sit for national anthem (https://www.sbnation.com/2017/10/13/16469302/lance-kendricks-puerto-rico-response-national-anthem-protest-donald-trump)
</aside>We’ll update about demonstrations around the NFL with details as they come along.
3 members of the Dolphins take the field after the anthem is complete<twitterwidget class="twitter-tweet twitter-tweet-rendered" id="twitter-widget-0" data-tweet-id="919608851887992834" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: inherit; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 10px auto; padding: 0px; position: static; visibility: visible; display: block; transform: rotate(0deg); max-width: 100%; width: 500px; min-width: 220px;">

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Michael Thomas, Julius Thomas and Kenny Stills take the field at Mercedez-Benz Stadium after the national anthem is complete. Greeted by Ndamukong Suh low-fives.
1:00 PM - Oct 15, 2017 (https://twitter.com/schadjoe/status/919608851887992834)



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49ers players continue to kneel for the anthem<twitterwidget class="twitter-tweet twitter-tweet-rendered" id="twitter-widget-1" data-tweet-id="919608698141642752" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: inherit; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 10px auto; padding: 0px; position: static; visibility: visible; display: block; transform: rotate(0deg); max-width: 100%; width: 500px; min-width: 220px;">

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https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/782932400976302080/cwRK8vbK_normal.jpgMike Jones
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Six active 49ers players (Goodwin, Harold, Armstead, Williams, Reid and Johnson) and one inactive player took a knee for anthem. Skins stood
12:59 PM - Oct 15, 2017 (https://twitter.com/ByMikeJones/status/919608698141642752)




</twitterwidget>

[sudzy]

The problem with the 49ers is that they kneel during the game, too. 0-5 and will be lucky to win a game.

[Novacane]

The problem with the 49ers is that they kneel during the game, too. 0-5 and will be lucky to win a game.


Do they play the Browns? The NFL should make it happen and call it the Toilet Bowl.

[Cali512]

First off if you ever seen the opposition, that's billsimpossible so I've lost any impact of his posts as true feeling. Second taking his post if actually true feeling is dumb AF. So just because we wear red white and blue,if we didn't protest (half the league didn't), we would be America's team. I take the protesters as way more American than people that don't because suppressing protesting is what the anti civil rights people did, the protesters are asking for equality, that's it

[BillsImpossible]

First off if you ever seen the opposition, that's billsimpossible so I've lost any impact of his posts as true feeling. Second taking his post if actually true feeling is dumb AF. So just because we wear red white and blue,if we didn't protest (half the league didn't), we would be America's team. I take the protesters as way more American than people that don't because suppressing protesting is what the anti civil rights people did, the protesters are asking for equality, that's it

Equality? Most NFL players cash a check in 1 week that is worth more than most Americans make in a year.

Equality my ass, those who kneel are complete hypocrites.

[Goobylal]

The Pegulas should stick to drilling wells. They suck at running sports franchises.

No one cares.

[ckg927]

The NFL went along with the PC crap until they (finally) realized it was hurting their bottom line. They have Trump to thank for taking the role of the jerk and letting them know why their ratings and attendance were down and how to fix it. If the players know what's good for them, they'll go back to standing for the Anthem andd start protesting real issues facing their people, on their own time.

You DO know that players didn't start appearing on field for the anthem until 2009, right?

That was also the same time the NFL(and some of its teams, INCLUDING BUFFALO)started taking money from the Defense Department for those displays of patriotism that are now commonplace.

[ckg927]

No one cares.

You cared enough to comment.

So who's the idiot now, hmmm?

[YardRat]

The collective bargaining agreement explicitly defines the club owners as 'employers' and the players as 'employees'.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

You DO know that players didn't start appearing on field for the anthem until 2009, right?

That was also the same time the NFL(and some of its teams, INCLUDING BUFFALO)started taking money from the Defense Department for those displays of patriotism that are now commonplace.

I could have swore that Bud Grant had national anthem drills for his Vikings and that the Bills of the 90s stood on the sideline during the anthem. I think it was left up to the teams before 09 but in that year the DOD started paid for patriotism

[stuckincincy]

I could have swore that Bud Grant had national anthem drills for his Vikings and that the Bills of the 90s stood on the sideline during the anthem. I think it was left up to the teams before 09 but in that year the DOD started paid for patriotism

Bud Grant...there's a name from the past. The Purple People Eaters...Larsen, Page, Marshall, and Eller.

Heh - the old song:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx47qrH1GRs

[Goobylal]

You DO know that players didn't start appearing on field for the anthem until 2009, right?

That was also the same time the NFL(and some of its teams, INCLUDING BUFFALO)started taking money from the Defense Department for those displays of patriotism that are now commonplace.


You cared enough to comment.

So who's the idiot now, hmmm?

Considering your first post above, obviously you. What 2009 has to do with 2016 is anyone's guess!

[THATHURMANATOR]

The Buffalo Bills are the only team in the NFL that wear the Red, White and Blue colors so prominent as the US Flag.

The Patriots and Giants don the Colors in minimal fashion, but they're nothing like the Buffalo Bills true Red, White and Blue.

What could have been....

Instead of taking a stand with a powerful and heavy pair of balls, the Pegula's took a weak knee and bowed down to the NFL's politically correct altar.

Jerry Jones recently said that any Cowboy that takes a knee on Sunday during the National Anthem will not play.

If he stays true to his word, I'm going to become a fan of the Dallas Cowboys.

No other owner in the NFL has had the balls to stand up for what's right. That is smart business.

Jerry Jones is listening to his customers, the NFL is not.

If Terry Pegula said, "We are America's team, our Buffalo Bills wear the Red, White and Blue proudly, and any player that takes a knee during the National Anthem will be replaced by a player with more heart and respect for our country," the Buffalo Bills would be America's Team right now and this forum would have a hell of a lot more viewers than it currently has.

In previous years I've noticed a slight drop off in viewers during the bye week, but less than 100 viewers with a 3-2 team that could be 5-0 if Zay Jones caught a pass and Kyle Williams didn't get penalized for defensive holding on 3rd down?

Unheard of.

Terry and Kim Pegula f'd up, royally.

Never in my life have I been so disappointed to be a fan of the Buffalo Bills.

I love the NFL, but the NFL can give a hoot about me, my friends, and my family that has loyally supported the league for so long.

The Pegula's made a calculated moove that followed 30 other franchise cows off a cliff.

Who cares?

[sukie]

Those players are going to sue Jerry Jones because they have a Constitutional right to do what they want with regards to kneeling. Jones cannot force them to stand. It's in the Constitution.
They can protest... take the knee and face financial consequences. The protest right isn't being trampled on. They can kneel in protest.

Employers have rights too. employees cannot break the code of conduct in the name of protest and NOT have consequences. I cannot wear swim trunks to work in protest. I'll be sent home then most likely fired if I persist. My rights will not have been violated.

[Joe Fo Sho]

They can protest... take the knee and face financial consequences. The protest right isn't being trampled on. They can kneel in protest.

Employers have rights too. employees cannot break the code of conduct in the name of protest and NOT have consequences. I cannot wear swim trunks to work in protest. I'll be sent home then most likely fired if I persist. My rights will not have been violated.

Exactly. The players have a Constitutional right to kneel for the National Anthem, but they don't have a Constitutional right to be employed by the Dallas Cowboys.

The new CBA negotiations in a couple years are going to be really fun to watch I think. I'm gonna get my popcorn ready.

[Bill Cody]

If he stays true to his word, I'm going to become a fan of the Dallas Cowboys.



So Sunday is your last day here?:jam:

[OpIv37]

Equality? Most NFL players cash a check in 1 week that is worth more than most Americans make in a year.

Equality my ass, those who kneel are complete hypocrites.

Why do people keep bringing up how much NFL players make? That is not a measure of racial equality in any way, shape or form.

There are 315 million people in the US, of whom roughly 12% are black, so around 37 or 38 million.

There are 1600 NFL players and not all of them are black. A few hundred black guys getting rich playing football proves nothing about how the other 37 million or so are treated.

Oh, and being rich doesn't prove that a person never experienced injustice or inequality. Probably should have opened with that.

You're trying to do the "How can I be racist? I have a black friend!" thing on a national level.

[EDS]

Why do people keep bringing up how much NFL players make? That is not a measure of racial equality in any way, shape or form.

There are 315 million people in the US, of whom roughly 12% are black, so around 37 or 38 million.

There are 1600 NFL players and not all of them are black. A few hundred black guys getting rich playing football proves nothing about how the other 37 million or so are treated.

Oh, and being rich doesn't prove that a person never experienced injustice or inequality. Probably should have opened with that.

You're trying to do the "How can I be racist? I have a black friend!" thing on a national level.

And of course rich white men using wealth and privilege to say, dodge the draft, is no big deal. Those types are true patriots!

[jlgarsh]

Why do people keep bringing up how much NFL players make? That is not a measure of racial equality in any way, shape or form.

There are 315 million people in the US, of whom roughly 12% are black, so around 37 or 38 million.

There are 1600 NFL players and not all of them are black. A few hundred black guys getting rich playing football proves nothing about how the other 37 million or so are treated.

Oh, and being rich doesn't prove that a person never experienced injustice or inequality. Probably should have opened with that.

You're trying to do the "How can I be racist? I have a black friend!" thing on a national level.

Amen to this post.

[CommissarSpartacus]

The collective bargaining agreement explicitly defines the club owners as 'employers' and the players as 'employees'.

So what?

[Goobylal]

And of course rich white men using wealth and privilege to say, dodge the draft, is no big deal. Those types are true patriots!

Are we talking about The Don or Slick Willy here?

[EDS]

Are we talking about The Don or Slick Willy here?

Both, not to mention many others. That said, it takes a special level of depravity to criticize the actions of others as being un-patriotic when you have taken active measures to avoid an obligation to serve.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Patriotism is not standing for the anthem and saluting the flag. It is about respecting, loving, and caring for other fellow citizens of the country we call home, and uniting as one. When we have people that hate others based on their color or religion or culture or sexuality, take away others' rights to medical care or education, and treat others as lesser or pieces of meat, that's fake patriotism, that's hypocrisy. And those are the ones that should be deported.

[jamze132]

The players that are protesting are not doing it for theirselves. They’re using their status and ability to be heard on a public stage for those that can’t be heard. I have no idea what an NFL salary has to do with the protest.

I still disagree in which the manner of the protest is being conducted, but I fully support the reason they’re protesting.

[feldspar]

but I fully support the reason they’re protesting.

What EXACTLY is the reason?

[YardRat]

Patriotism is not standing for the anthem and saluting the flag. It is about respecting, loving, and caring for other fellow citizens of the country we call home, and uniting as one. When we have people that hate others based on their color or religion or culture or sexuality,

Unless they are white Christian southern heterosexuals...it's OK to hate on them.


take away others' rights to medical care or education, and treat others as lesser or pieces of meat, that's fake patriotism, that's hypocrisy. And those are the ones that should be deported.


Like cyber-stalking an individual with taunts about abortion and anal sex? Telling somebody they need to get back on their meds? Suggesting suicide? Wishing cancer would finally take someone's life?

You need to catch up...in some places that's considered 'enlightened and educated'.

[OpIv37]

Unless they are white Christian southern heterosexuals...it's OK to hate on them.



*sigh. This nonsense again?

People don't hate white Christian southern heterosexuals for simply being white Christian heterosexuals. People hate them when they use some piece of that as an excuse for bigotry and discrimination.

Like when they want to promote a symbol of hate as "heritage" and glorify men who led an armed rebellion against the US under the guise of "states' rights." Or when they create a bunch of hysteria over transsexuals in the bathroom. Or when they think baking a cake for a gay couple somehow violates their religion. Or when they call liberals "snowflakes" then whine about how it is a burden to be a straight white Christian male in the US (kinda like you're doing right now).

[Arm of Harm]

*sigh. This nonsense again?

People don't hate white Christian southern heterosexuals for simply being white Christian heterosexuals.

Actually yes, they do. There are a number who are anti-Christian. Who feel (at best) very suspicious of anyone who is devoutly Christian. There are those who enjoy jokes at Southerners' expense: portraying them as lazy, ignorant, inbred. Finally, there are those who are anti-white. Hatred of the white race is the core value of the Left's secular religion (https://www.thedailybeast.com/antiracism-our-flawed-new-religion). How does the typical Antiracist reconcile this core religious value of anti-white racial hate with the life experience that there are plenty of decent white people out there? Often the thought is that if you're white you already have a strike against you. But one can (partially) atone for one's whiteness by devotion to the Left's secular religion.


Like when they want to promote a symbol of hate as "heritage" and glorify men who led an armed rebellion against the US
The Left's willingness and ability to simply rewrite history is astounding.

First off, it's very, very difficult to make the argument that, on the one hand, the Thirteen Colonies did have the right to secede from the British Empire, while the Southern States did not have the right to secede from the Union.

Initially, many leading Southerners had admitted that slavery was wrong. But they also felt it should be abolished at the state level, not at the federal level. Constitutionally, it was 100% clear that the Southern view was correct: that this was a state issue. Abolitionists felt the matter should be decided on the federal level, which (at the time) would have represented a vast expansion in federal power. In practice, this expansion would have given the Northern states significant ability to tell the South what to do. (The North was more populated and more industrialized than the South, and therefore had larger representation in the government.) The more strident and popular abolitionists became, the more defensive Southerners became about slavery. Some of them even started calling it "good." Why? Because they felt threatened. Because they did not want to accept Northern control over the South, or a vast expansion of federal power. Before the Civil War our nation was called the united States (lowercase u). The South seceded because they didn't want a bunch of Yankees telling them what to do. (Which they equated with a loss of freedom.)

Finally, there is the fact that General Robert E. Lee favored emancipation of slaves, and their relocation to Africa. Had the South won the Civil War, and established its independence, there is a very strong chance Lee would have been elected as the Confederacy's second president. (Much like General Grant was elected Union president, after the Union's victory in the war.) As Confederate president, he would have been in a good position to lead--but not coerce--the Confederate states into adopting his proposed resolution to the problem of slavery.


Or when they think baking a cake for a gay couple somehow violates their religion.

This is not about whether the Christian bakers are right or wrong to feel as they do. It's about whether the government has the right to dictate to the conscience of small business owners. To impose on them its ideology, its values, rather than allowing them to adhere to their own.

[OpIv37]

And cue the parroted white supremacist response....

[Arm of Harm]

And cue the parroted white supremacist response....

Your initial post was a mindless parroting of discredited Leftist talking points. Your followup post was name calling. In neither case did you attempt to engage in intellectual discussion, or to see things from outside the perspective of the Antiracism religion. You are here to propagandize, not to converse.

[OpIv37]

Your initial post was a mindless parroting of discredited Leftist talking points. Your followup post was name calling. In neither case did you attempt to engage in intellectual discussion, or to see things from outside the perspective of the Antiracism religion. You are here to propagandize, not to converse.

My initial post showed the hypocrisy of the right. Your post was parroted drivel that left out key points that don't support your preconceived view. And it's ironic that you accuse others of posting propaganda....

[kingJofNYC]

Much respect to OpIv.

[EDS]

Actually yes, they do. There are a number who are anti-Christian. Who feel (at best) very suspicious of anyone who is devoutly Christian. There are those who enjoy jokes at Southerners' expense: portraying them as lazy, ignorant, inbred. Finally, there are those who are anti-white. Hatred of the white race is the core value of the Left's secular religion (https://www.thedailybeast.com/antiracism-our-flawed-new-religion). How does the typical Antiracist reconcile this core religious value of anti-white racial hate with the life experience that there are plenty of decent white people out there? Often the thought is that if you're white you already have a strike against you. But one can (partially) atone for one's whiteness by devotion to the Left's secular religion.


The Left's willingness and ability to simply rewrite history is astounding.

First off, it's very, very difficult to make the argument that, on the one hand, the Thirteen Colonies did have the right to secede from the British Empire, while the Southern States did not have the right to secede from the Union.

Initially, many leading Southerners had admitted that slavery was wrong. But they also felt it should be abolished at the state level, not at the federal level. Constitutionally, it was 100% clear that the Southern view was correct: that this was a state issue. Abolitionists felt the matter should be decided on the federal level, which (at the time) would have represented a vast expansion in federal power. In practice, this expansion would have given the Northern states significant ability to tell the South what to do. (The North was more populated and more industrialized than the South, and therefore had larger representation in the government.) The more strident and popular abolitionists became, the more defensive Southerners became about slavery. Some of them even started calling it "good." Why? Because they felt threatened. Because they did not want to accept Northern control over the South, or a vast expansion of federal power. Before the Civil War our nation was called the united States (lowercase u). The South seceded because they didn't want a bunch of Yankees telling them what to do. (Which they equated with a loss of freedom.)

Finally, there is the fact that General Robert E. Lee favored emancipation of slaves, and their relocation to Africa. Had the South won the Civil War, and established its independence, there is a very strong chance Lee would have been elected as the Confederacy's second president. (Much like General Grant was elected Union president, after the Union's victory in the war.) As Confederate president, he would have been in a good position to lead--but not coerce--the Confederate states into adopting his proposed resolution to the problem of slavery.



This is not about whether the Christian bakers are right or wrong to feel as they do. It's about whether the government has the right to dictate to the conscience of small business owners. To impose on them its ideology, its values, rather than allowing them to adhere to their own.

There is no way to defend any group or society that is hiding behind a veil of law, past practice or religion when it comes to denying basic human rights. History will rightfully judge anyone guilty of such atrocities very harshly.

[Arm of Harm]

There is no way to defend any group or society that is hiding behind a veil of law, past practice or religion when it comes to denying basic human rights. History will rightfully judge anyone guilty of such atrocities very harshly.


Unlike Antiracist religious fanatics such as OpIv37, I'm able to see the flaws in both sides of the Civil War.

The South's sin, obviously, was slavery. Slavery was a sin for two reasons. It was a human rights violation, as you pointed out. Also, it was a violation of the principle that, where possible, a nation should consist of only one race of people. To have multiple races is to have racial tension and miscegenation.

The North's sins consisted of its complete disregard for the South's (perfectly legitimate) concerns, its war crimes, and its heavy handedness and tyranny. (Chief Union war crimes consist of Sherman's and Sheridan's marches, which involved the destruction of homes, food, and clothing, leaving the Southerners with "nothing but their eyes to cry with." Marches like that are a war crime, because they result in the deaths of large numbers of civilians due to hunger, exposure, and disease.)

The South's most basic and most legitimate concern was for the continued existence of the white race in the South. Simply freeing the slaves--as Lincoln began doing with the Emancipation Proclamation--posed a very serious threat to that racial existence. For the next century, the South countered that threat with segregation--with "separate but equal." That segregation was ended in the 1960s--with, again, no concern at all given to the South's perfectly legitimate desire to see the white race in the South continue to exist. On the other hand, the solution to slavery proposed by General Robert E. Lee--shipping the slaves to Africa and freeing them--would have ended the sin of slavery, without undertaking a new sin of threatening white racial existence. All the good of the North's cause could have been achieved, without adding in any of the bad. (The bad being the expansion of the federal government and its powers, the war itself, and the postwar threat to the white race.)

[Goobylal]

What EXACTLY is the reason?

Because white cops are killing tons of black people for no apparent reason.

[EDS]

Unlike Antiracist religious fanatics such as OpIv37, I'm able to see the flaws in both sides of the Civil War.

The South's sin, obviously, was slavery. Slavery was a sin for two reasons. It was a human rights violation, as you pointed out. Also, it was a violation of the principle that, where possible, a nation should consist of only one race of people. To have multiple races is to have racial tension and miscegenation.

The North's sins consisted of its complete disregard for the South's (perfectly legitimate) concerns, its war crimes, and its heavy handedness and tyranny. (Chief Union war crimes consist of Sherman's and Sheridan's marches, which involved the destruction of homes, food, and clothing, leaving the Southerners with "nothing but their eyes to cry with." Marches like that are a war crime, because they result in the deaths of large numbers of civilians due to hunger, exposure, and disease.)

The South's most basic and most legitimate concern was for the continued existence of the white race in the South. Simply freeing the slaves--as Lincoln began doing with the Emancipation Proclamation--posed a very serious threat to that racial existence. For the next century, the South countered that threat with segregation--with "separate but equal." That segregation was ended in the 1960s--with, again, no concern at all given to the South's perfectly legitimate desire to see the white race in the South continue to exist. On the other hand, the solution to slavery proposed by General Robert E. Lee--shipping the slaves to Africa and freeing them--would have ended the sin of slavery, without undertaking a new sin of threatening white racial existence. All the good of the North's cause could have been achieved, without adding in any of the bad. (The bad being the expansion of the federal government and its powers, the war itself, and the postwar threat to the white race.)

There is no sin in having a nation comprised of all different types of people living side-by-side, particularly one founded on the principal of equality and justice for all.

If the white southerners were concerned about their continued existence - and that freed slaves would compromise that existence - they should have thought about that before they purchased and enslaved those people. Who would have thought those slaves and their ancestors would be upset for being captured, tortured and enslaved by white men, and being forcefully removed from their homes and native lands and treated like livestock.

[jlgarsh]

Actually yes, they do. There are a number who are anti-Christian. Who feel (at best) very suspicious of anyone who is devoutly Christian. There are those who enjoy jokes at Southerners' expense: portraying them as lazy, ignorant, inbred. Finally, there are those who are anti-white. Hatred of the white race is the core value of the Left's secular religion (https://www.thedailybeast.com/antiracism-our-flawed-new-religion). How does the typical Antiracist reconcile this core religious value of anti-white racial hate with the life experience that there are plenty of decent white people out there? Often the thought is that if you're white you already have a strike against you. But one can (partially) atone for one's whiteness by devotion to the Left's secular religion.


The Left's willingness and ability to simply rewrite history is astounding.

First off, it's very, very difficult to make the argument that, on the one hand, the Thirteen Colonies did have the right to secede from the British Empire, while the Southern States did not have the right to secede from the Union.

Initially, many leading Southerners had admitted that slavery was wrong. But they also felt it should be abolished at the state level, not at the federal level. Constitutionally, it was 100% clear that the Southern view was correct: that this was a state issue. Abolitionists felt the matter should be decided on the federal level, which (at the time) would have represented a vast expansion in federal power. In practice, this expansion would have given the Northern states significant ability to tell the South what to do. (The North was more populated and more industrialized than the South, and therefore had larger representation in the government.) The more strident and popular abolitionists became, the more defensive Southerners became about slavery. Some of them even started calling it "good." Why? Because they felt threatened. Because they did not want to accept Northern control over the South, or a vast expansion of federal power. Before the Civil War our nation was called the united States (lowercase u). The South seceded because they didn't want a bunch of Yankees telling them what to do. (Which they equated with a loss of freedom.)

Finally, there is the fact that General Robert E. Lee favored emancipation of slaves, and their relocation to Africa. Had the South won the Civil War, and established its independence, there is a very strong chance Lee would have been elected as the Confederacy's second president. (Much like General Grant was elected Union president, after the Union's victory in the war.) As Confederate president, he would have been in a good position to lead--but not coerce--the Confederate states into adopting his proposed resolution to the problem of slavery.



This is not about whether the Christian bakers are right or wrong to feel as they do. It's about whether the government has the right to dictate to the conscience of small business owners. To impose on them its ideology, its values, rather than allowing them to adhere to their own.
The 13 colonies were being taxed without representation in government. The south seceded even though they had seats in the US house and senate. There's much more to it, but totally different.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

What EXACTLY is the reason?

An evolution of a protest. First lets start with Colin Kaepernick who started this thing. He is on record as protesting police brutality against black people and racial inequality. He wanted to raise awareness of these issues and has in fact put his money where his mouth is.

https://www.theshadowleague.com/story/colin-kaepernick-still-putting-his-money-where-his-heart-is

So, good on him and its completely respectable and laudable and praiseworthy and I fully support him.

Then media got involved which was good, and then they skewed and distorted what he was trying to do, which was bad. So, the protest began to evolve.

People, including several of his fellow players saw that Kap was benched. Many of them rightly or wrongly assumed it was because of his protest and not because he had been figured out by the league's DCs and had even lost his starting job to a scrub QB on a ****ty 9ers team that after nearly winning it all in 13 has parted ways with its coaches from that team and most of that team's starters. So they protested in solidarity and for his right to free speech, and many players also agreed with his efforts to raise awareness and so they started sitting, kneeling, locking arms, or raising the black power fist salute.
Then the media distorted and skewed what they were protesting, and so the twit in chief had to weigh in and make it all about himself and so the media helped him out on this and made it exactly that. So now its for some a protest against Trump, for others its about supporting freedom of speech, and for others its about protesting racial oppression