Best QB of All Time

[Mouldsie]

I got into a Twitter debate recently over Brady vs Rodgers for the GOAT.

I think it's Rodgers.
To me, wins and Super Bowl's are not simply and individual feat so I don't take the "rings" explanation as definitive evidence of Brady being automatic #1. I think the modern day Patriots overall is among the best organizations in NFL history and he plays a big role in that. I will judge a TEAM based on wins and Lombardi trophies.

I of course have not watched some of the greats from the past... so am only judging by those I've seen (Manning, Brees, Marino, Kelly, Elway, Young, Favre, Warner, all get consideration).

Back to Rodgers: he's the most complete package at QB I've ever witnessed. He makes everyone around him better. His information processing is great. His arm talent is practically unmatched. His scrambling play-making ability and elusiveness in the pocket makes him all the more dangerous. He has a cool demeanor but also is intelligently aggressive.

His stats are hard to argue with as he's number 1 is just about any category you can imagine on a per game basis, has the best QB rating and TD:INT ratio in NFL history, and is a record holder for these same categories in playoff games. He's also #1 all time in points-per-drive in the playoffs (I love that stat as an indicator of offensive prowess) which means he's losing games because the defense doesn't stop people (remember Kaepernick running for 50+ yard TD's on them?).

If you isolate Rodgers vs Brady: Aaron has a higher completion %, higher ypa & adjusted ypa, more yards per game, more TD's per game, etc & (in 100 less games) significantly more rushing yards & TD's.



Who do you have as the best QB ever? Why?

[YardRat]

I am biased against Brady because of the omnipresent cheating that is evident for his entire career. Rodgers is really good and in the conversation, but titles do mean something to me, and without looking it up I don't think his road record is anything special. As far as only QB's I've seen, I still think Montana is the best. Yes, he had a good team around him for most of his career, but he was just so clutch in big games for most of his career.

As far as anybody, I wish I could've seen Otto Graham play, because he probably is the real GOAT, again without looking anything up I have a hard time believing anybody's accomplishments, both titles and statistics, can match up with him.

[Wally The Barber]

Jim Kelly, his career was short compared to Tom Brady

[jlgarsh]

If you had to pick a QB to win 1 game, I think you'd be silly not to go with Joe Montana.

[Mouldsie]

If you had to pick a QB to win 1 game, I think you'd be silly not to go with Joe Montana.
Typically seasons and careers last longer than 1 game

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Even as a Bills fan, I was always partial to John Elway. I still call him the GOAT (of my lifetime anyway) but am like you and starting to look at Aaron Rodgers instead.

[Pennywise]

Going with the unpopular choice, Tom Brady.

IMO, it isn't even a contest.

[BillyT92679]

The answer is Joe Montana. Then Brady.

[Night Train]

Norm Snead

[Turf]

No QB has had the run Brady has had, tainted or not, lucky or not. Ultra fortunate, but the greatest ever.

[Mr. Pink]

I am biased against Brady because of the omnipresent cheating that is evident for his entire career. Rodgers is really good and in the conversation, but titles do mean something to me, and without looking it up I don't think his road record is anything special. As far as only QB's I've seen, I still think Montana is the best. Yes, he had a good team around him for most of his career, but he was just so clutch in big games for most of his career.

As far as anybody, I wish I could've seen Otto Graham play, because he probably is the real GOAT, again without looking anything up I have a hard time believing anybody's accomplishments, both titles and statistics, can match up with him.

10 season. 10 Championship Games. 6 Titles.

Still the NFL all time career leader in yards per attempt at 8.63

Elway is the best QB I've seen play. The 86-87 Broncos were inferior to teams in the AFC, let alone the thumpings they took to vastly superior NFC teams, but he basically carried them to two consecutive Superbowls. When he got a running game to compliment his leadership and passing ability, they won 2 straight Superbowls.

[sahlensguy]

My heart says Rodgers.

My head says Brady.

[Mouldsie]

10 season. 10 Championship Games. 6 Titles.

Still the NFL all time career leader in yards per attempt at 8.63

Elway is the best QB I've seen play. The 86-87 Broncos were inferior to teams in the AFC, let alone the thumpings they took to vastly superior NFC teams, but he basically carried them to two consecutive Superbowls. When he got a running game to compliment his leadership and passing ability, they won 2 straight Superbowls.
There were like 8 teams when Graham played. Still a pretty impressive run

[Mr. Pink]

There were like 8 teams when Graham played. Still a pretty impressive run

Which also means the talent pool wasn't as diluted as it is now and guys back then were playing because they actually loved the game and weren't just there to collect a paycheck.

There's two sides to that less teams argument.

[stuckincincy]

Who do you have as the best QB ever? Why?

I couldn't begin to pick the best ever, Mouldsie. It's an impossibility.

Era differences, stats, longevity, rule changes, etc. I sure haven't seen all the pro QBs, now and before tv, etc.

This QB had old-time moxie. Bradshaw did, too. Terry's my 2nd choice. I select:

Kenny Stabler:

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/135818572/ken-stabler-oakland-raiders-winner-john-madden

[Turf]

I guess it depends on what best ever means. I mean who can throw better than Favre? Who has leadership skills? Who can win? You have Rogers, Brady, hell you could add Marino, there's Bradshaw, Staubach, Namath, Montana.

[Bill Cody]

Rodgers is the best I’ve seen. But health is a factor

[Crisis]

I hate him but it's Brady and I don't think it's even close at this point.

[Ingtar33]

the greatest season of QB play I've ever saw went like this

#1 Payton Manning Colts 09-10 -> Not his best statistical season but easily the greatest QB play I've ever seen from a QB. His team was 3-13 trash that year. He had no blocking, no WRs, no running game. And he singlehandedly dragged them to a Superbowl. It was an amazing season, with QB play that's still etched into my mind as some of the greatest performances I've ever seen from a QB, one game after another like a machine.

#2 Steve Young 49ers 94-95 -> unreal, I don't have words to describe Young's play that year. He couldn't miss. He could make a mistake. He was about as close to perfect as I've seen a QB play

#3 Joe Montana 49ers 89-90 -> Joe's best season of football, the niners were unstoppable, and Joe just disected everyone he played.

#4 Tom Brady Patriots 07-08 -> 16-1, suck it Tom

#5 Drew Brees Saints 11-12 -> Surgical. Not quite as magical as the other seasons listed, but it was unreal to watch him play. Jaw dropping.

#6 Kurt Warner Rams 99-00 -> Hard to keep this season off the list. He was just unstoppable, some of the finest QBing you'll ever see.

- After these seasons they start to blend together as excellent but generally "commonplace", the lone exception being Marino's 84 season, but then I'll never put a fish on a list of anything great. Most of the rest if I were to grade them would be a blend of Manning's and Brady's seasons, with some Brees thrown in.

As for Rogers, he never made me stand up and say "GOAT" except for the first few games this year. Up until that injury he was showing me something I hadn't seen since Manning's 09 season. In fact I was wondering if it would be a better year then Manning's 09 season up until the injury. Roger's problem is he hasn't strung together a season of excellence. Even his superbowl season (which was his best thus far) he sort of stunk it up for the first half of the year, then caught fire and played out of his mind for the back half of the season and playoffs. Still he's had some of the finest games I've ever seen a QB have. GOAT? nope. But then he's damned good. And when healthy, the best QB in the league right now.

[Skooby]

Montana. He even took the 1993 KC team and got them to Buffalo in conference championship game after he got booted for Steve Young.

[jamze132]

Not sure how Brady isn’t #1 on everyone’s list. Stats don’t lie (no pun intended)

[swiper]

My pick would be Montana. But if you're being honest about it, Brady has passed him at this point. Aaron Rodgers is excellent, but a bit fragile.

[YardRat]

I guess it depends on what best ever means. I mean who can throw better than Favre? Who has leadership skills? Who can win? You have Rogers, Brady, hell you could add Marino, there's Bradshaw, Staubach, Namath, Montana.
Jeff George was the most physically gifted QB I've ever seen play, as far as throwing the ball. I'm serious.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Bart Starr, hands down.

[bdutton]

Tom Brady hands down. Not even close. Why even start a thread when the answer is already there.

[Skooby]

One other factor you have to weigh in and Joe Montana had to play against the NFC’s best, the NFC ran the table for like 17 years straight.

[Ginger Vitis]

One other factor you have to weigh in and Joe Montana had to play against the NFC’s best, the NFC ran the table for like 17 years straight.

The NFC won 13 Super Bowls in a row..Not 17

[Skooby]

The NFC won 13 Super Bowls in a row..Not 17
My bad, get the point ??

[sahlensguy]

My bad, get the point ??

What is your point? Is Troy Aikman a bit underrated since he also won while playing in a superior conference?

[Forward_Lateral]

Even as a Bills fan, I was always partial to John Elway. I still call him the GOAT (of my lifetime anyway) but am like you and starting to look at Aaron Rodgers instead.

IMO, Elway was vastly over rated. Look at his career numbers. They don't blow you away by any means.

[Skooby]

What is your point? Is Troy Aikman a bit underrated since he also won while playing in a superior conference?
You might not remember the NFC playoffs back then, very tough football.

[Mouldsie]

Not sure how Brady isn’t #1 on everyone’s list. Stats don’t lie (no pun intended)
What individual stat or context?

Wins is not something a QB controls on his own. Even the Super Bowls were all close games where you could argue the other team lost them more than NE won them.

I think I'd rank Manning ahead of Brady as well. Being top 5 is not so bad though! NE is simply a better team/org than Indy or GB.

[Mouldsie]

I'm not sure how Rodgers is "fragile" when he's only missed games due to injury twice in 13 seasons and has been hit more than most QB's have (NE OL >>> GB OL in that time). Brady missed an entire season with a torn ACL, was he fragile that year?

Is Manning fragile? He missed games with a broken jaw and a neck injury. It's football, it will happen. Unless you're Favre or Eli.

[Joe Fo Sho]

What individual stat or context?

Wins is not something a QB controls on his own. Even the Super Bowls were all close games where you could argue the other team lost them more than NE won them.

I think I'd rank Manning ahead of Brady as well. Being top 5 is not so bad though! NE is simply a better team/org than Indy or GB.

Not to mention that the game is played differently today than it used to be played, which is in part to the rule changes that favor the offense. You can't just compare stat for stat with the guys who played 20 years ago.

I'd rank Peyton ahead of Brady also, and probably Montana and Rodgers, too.

[mightysimi]

As much as I hate him, Brady is the best IMO. He had to lead a game winning drive in I think at least 3 of the superbowls. Championships aren't all that matter as it is a team game but if you look at the small sample size of QB's that get to the superbowl over the past decade, it is only a few guys. So you could argue, the teams are good because the QB is good, not the other way around.

[sukie]

(Salty pre puke taste in mouth) Marino. Guy had zero running game his entire career. Bills were awesome and the dude still hit 12 yarders to slow Jim Jenson on 3rd down. Quickest release and he was relentless because all he had was his arm.

[Thurmal]

I would never pick him as best all-time, but the guy who could play QB at the highest level for one game, in my lifetime, was maybe Kurt Warner. That guy would get in the zone sometimes and start throwing like 50-yard ropes (I mean, like no or very little arch) on a dime over and over again.

[Arm of Harm]

I would never pick him as best all-time, but the guy who could play QB at the highest level for one game, in my lifetime, was maybe Kurt Warner. That guy would get in the zone sometimes and start throwing like 50-yard ropes (I mean, like no or very little arch) on a dime over and over again.

If Kurt Warner's career had been a few years longer, he'd very much be in the discussion for best QB ever. Part of that is how he played in championships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_warner).



In 13 career playoff games, Warner ranks first all-time in completion percentage (66.5%), first in yards per attempt (8.55), and second in passer rating (102.8). . . .

In Warner's third career Super Bowl appearance on February 1, the Cardinals lost Super Bowl XLIII (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XLIII) 27–23 to the Pittsburgh Steelers, leaving him with a career 1–2 record in Super Bowls. Despite losing, Warner still managed to throw for 377 yards (the 2nd-highest total in Super Bowl history). He completed 72.1% of his passes, and had a quarterback rating of 112.3. Warner had now recorded the three highest single-game passing yardage totals in the history of the Super Bowl.
That's three outstanding Super Bowl performances by Warner. Some of Brady's Super Bowl appearances have also been outstanding--such as the Super Bowl in which he broke Warner's yardage record. But others were nothing special.

As for best single game performance I've ever seen, I'd have to give that to Aaron Rodgers. His performance against the Steelers was at another level entirely. He had no running game, no pass protection, receivers who sometimes made plays and sometimes dropped passes. His defense couldn't stop the Steelers' running game. And yet . . . he almost singlehandedly carried his team to victory. The Packers had absolutely no business at all winning that game. Yet they did, because of their quarterback.

Best all time? For me, that comes down to a choice between Joe Montana, Tom Brady, and Aaron Rodgers. The OP's arguments in favor of Rodgers are very convincing, and I'm partially convinced. Rodgers has put up better stats than Brady, while having a weaker supporting cast--especially at OL--than Brady. On the other hand, Brady's career has lasted seemingly forever, and he's still going strong. He's just accomplished so much, and it's hard to take that away from him. Finally, you have a guy like Joe Montana, who accomplished a lot in the regular season, and who played well in all four of his Super Bowls. You could make a very convincing case in favor of any of those three guys.

[swiper]

Bart Starr, hands down.

We told you in the last "best QB" thread that Starr wasn't even the best QB of his time. Listen to those smarter than you.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

My heart says Unitas, my Brain says Unitas, its ****ing John Unitas. There is no pretty boy Brady, no NFL at least on the scale that it is now, no passing game like there is now, and so on and so forth without Unitas. Also, keep in mind that in the era he played it was legal to all but kill a QB and his receivers. Unitas was good enough to put up 40,000 yards during his career during a time when the league(s) emphasized the run, and under today's rules of essentially two hand touch he probably gets 120,000 yards.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Jeff George was the most physically gifted QB I've ever seen play, as far as throwing the ball. I'm serious.
But no heart, and a complete headcase, and coaching nightmare (for his coaches).

- - - Updated - - -


Bart Starr, hands down.
One of the best game managers ever, but I still have to go with Unitas.

[Mr. Pink]

One of the best game managers ever, but I still have to go with Unitas.

Bart Starr was good enough to hand the ball off to Paul Hornung and Jim Taylor.

His 1967 season was probably the worst of any QB to win a Superbowl.

[Night Train]

Virgil Carter

[swiper]

My heart says Unitas, my Brain says Unitas, its ****ing John Unitas. There is no pretty boy Brady, no NFL at least on the scale that it is now, no passing game like there is now, and so on and so forth without Unitas. Also, keep in mind that in the era he played it was legal to all but kill a QB and his receivers. Unitas was good enough to put up 40,000 yards during his career during a time when the league(s) emphasized the run, and under today's rules of essentially two hand touch he probably gets 120,000 yards.

I often think some posters here would benefit from being forced to watch a couple of his games.

http://blog.aglamslam.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Johnny.Unitas.jpg

[yordad]

This is Tom Brady. All Day. I really want to say Manning, but I can't.

[Arm of Harm]

I look at several things when evaluating a QB:

1. How well did he do in the regular season on a per-play basis?
2. How well did he do in the regular season in terms of total passing yards?
3. How well did he do in the postseason, especially championships?

At least for me, Bart Starr isn't part of this discussion because of 2. He just didn't pass for enough yards during the regular season. Green Bay's offense was run-oriented, making the QB's passing responsibilities much easier than would have been the case in a pass-oriented offense. Also, a QB's per-play numbers get inflated in a run-oriented offense. Johnny Unitas was better than Starr because Unitas passed for a lot more yards per season, in the same era.

One reason I didn't choose Johnny Unitas as the best ever was because he didn't play well in Super Bowls. I'll forgive a QB for being on the losing team in the Super Bowl, as long as he personally played well. Unitas didn't.

On the other hand, you look at guys like Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, and Joe Montana. All three QBs were very strong in all three of the areas I mentioned. That's why it's so easy to make a compelling argument in favor of any of those three players.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

I look at several things when evaluating a QB:

1. How well did he do in the regular season on a per-play basis?
2. How well did he do in the regular season in terms of total passing yards?
3. How well did he do in the postseason, especially championships?

At least for me, Bart Starr isn't part of this discussion because of 2. He just didn't pass for enough yards during the regular season. Green Bay's offense was run-oriented, making the QB's passing responsibilities much easier than would have been the case in a pass-oriented offense. Also, a QB's per-play numbers get inflated in a run-oriented offense. Johnny Unitas was better than Starr because Unitas passed for a lot more yards per season, in the same era.

One reason I didn't choose Johnny Unitas as the best ever was because he didn't play well in Super Bowls. I'll forgive a QB for being on the losing team in the Super Bowl, as long as he personally played well. Unitas didn't.

On the other hand, you look at guys like Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, and Joe Montana. All three QBs were very strong in all three of the areas I mentioned. That's why it's so easy to make a compelling argument in favor of any of those three players.

You are aware most of Unitas' career was before the Superbowl and his greatest game - the greatest in NFL history - namely the 58 championship game was eight years before the Superbowl. In SB III you were seeing an old man, not a top notch an at the peak of his game

[DraftBoy]

Jeff George was the most physically gifted QB I've ever seen play, as far as throwing the ball. I'm serious.

If we're talking the most physically gifted then that's Michael Vick for me.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

If we're talking the most physically gifted then that's Michael Vick for me.

That's nice and all, but I would have to go with Randall Cunningham in that. Great legs, an amazing arm, and the ability to escape pressure. One of my first memories of the Bills was in 90 when Bruce Smith had him in the endzine and Cunningham lobbed a 100 yard td pass. Cunningham was an amazing athlete.

[DraftBoy]

That's nice and all, but I would have to go with Randall Cunningham in that. Great legs, an amazing arm, and the ability to escape pressure. One of my first memories of the Bills was in 90 when Bruce Smith had him in the endzine and Cunningham lobbed a 100 yard td pass. Cunningham was an amazing athlete.
Cunningham was a tremendous athlete, no doubt.

[Mr. Pink]

That's nice and all, but I would have to go with Randall Cunningham in that. Great legs, an amazing arm, and the ability to escape pressure. One of my first memories of the Bills was in 90 when Bruce Smith had him in the endzine and Cunningham lobbed a 100 yard td pass. Cunningham was an amazing athlete.

I agree with Cunningham over Vick.

Cunningham's game actually evolved and he turned into a really good passer, not just a guy who could run all over a defense...although he could certainly do that too if needed.

[Forward_Lateral]

Steve Young was a better athlete than both Cunningham and Vick

[DraftBoy]

Steve Young was a better athlete than both Cunningham and Vick

No, he wasn't.

[Forward_Lateral]

No, he wasn't.

Why wasn't he?

[Generalissimus Gibby]

His one shortcoming was bad coaching. Buddy thought he could win just with defense and the next couple coaches in Philly were just mind numbingly awful. Then he got Denny Green who had great offenses but a crap d. Oh and Gary Anderson who was a kick away from the Superbowl. A Bronco v. Viking Superbowl would have been so much fun

[Mr. Pink]

Why wasn't he?

Young was a better QB yes, Cunningham was a better athlete.

Cunningham was bigger, stronger, faster and had a cannon of an arm.

[CommissarSpartacus]

We told you in the last "best QB" thread that Starr wasn't even the best QB of his time. Listen to those smarter than you.

There isn't anyone here smarter than me, and that's been proved over and over again for 15 years.

Now, I know being smarter than Bills fans isn't really saying very much, but it's not my fault Bills fans are stupid, fat and ugly with an accent that makes Chicagoans sound like classically trained actors.

A qbs job is not to "put up numbers", a qbs job is to make sure his team scores more points than the other team.

And Bart Starr did that better than anyone.

[Mr. Pink]

A qbs job is not to "put up numbers", a qbs job is to make sure his team scores more points than the other team.

And Bart Starr did that better than anyone.


Tom Brady tied Starr for most NFL Championships this past Super Bowl victory.

Starr has as many career wins as Ken Stabler does, let alone mentioning guys like Jim Kelly even have more.

Otto Graham has the highest winning % of an NFL QB ever.

So what did Starr do better than anyone, exactly?

[Arm of Harm]

You are aware most of Unitas' career was before the Superbowl and his greatest game - the greatest in NFL history - namely the 58 championship game was eight years before the Superbowl. In SB III you were seeing an old man, not a top notch an at the peak of his game

Thanks for the heads-up on the chronology.

That being the case, I'm willing to put Unitas into the same category as Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, and Joe Montana. It's very subjective to choose from among those four.

[swiper]

One reason I didn't choose Johnny Unitas as the best ever was because he didn't play well in Super Bowls. I'll forgive a QB for being on the losing team in the Super Bowl, as long as he personally played well. Unitas didn't.
\

Well then Jim Kelly is nowhere on your list either.

- - - Updated - - -


There isn't anyone here smarter than me, and that's been proved over and over again for 15 years.


This is your first mistake.

[YardRat]

Unitas is a good pick also.

Just for clarification sake, there's a reason I qualified my Jeff George comment with throwing the ball....not overall.

[Ingtar33]

If I were to rank the greatest QBs of all time I think I'd go -

Payton Manning
Joe Montana
Brett Favre
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
John Elway
Steve Young
Jim Kelly
Fran Tarkenton
Ben Rothlesburger

[Crisis]

If I were to rank the greatest QBs of all time I think I'd go -

Payton Manning
Joe Montana
Brett Favre
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
John Elway
Steve Young
Jim Kelly
Fran Tarkenton
Ben Rothlesburger

I grew up hating him, but Marino is better than half the qbs on this list at least.

[Ingtar33]

I grew up hating him, but Marino is better than half the qbs on this list at least.

As i said earlier, "I'll never put a Fish on any 'best ever' list"

[YardRat]

If I were to rank the greatest QBs of all time I think I'd go -

Payton Manning
Joe Montana
Brett Favre
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
John Elway
Steve Young
Jim Kelly
Fran Tarkenton
Ben Rothlesburger

So quarterbacks didn't exist before the eighties? The one guy prior to then that makes the list is Tarkenton? Wow.

Are you using the 'only QBs I've seen play are eligible' criteria? It would make a little bit more sense then.

[Night Train]

So quarterbacks didn't exist before the eighties? The one guy prior to then that makes the list is Tarkenton? Wow.
Are you using the 'only QBs I've seen play are eligible' criteria? It would make a little bit more sense then.


Agreed. It's just discussion but lists are useless, since multiple era's are involved and only 1 or 2 are considered by most voting.

Who's to say Sammy Baugh, Sid Luckman, Otto Graham and Y.A.Tittle aren't as good as any of them ?

[swiper]

My answer will always be Roger Staubach. Just my favorite. Still remember how he took the Cowboys to 11-3 in 1976 after he broke his finger in the first half of the season.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Nov/07/br/hawaii81107004.html (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Nov/07/br/hawaii81107004.html)

[cookie G]

Bart Starr was good enough to hand the ball off to Paul Hornung and Jim Taylor.

His 1967 season was probably the worst of any QB to win a Superbowl.

Eh...most Qb's TD-INT ratio would be a lot less today if they had to deal with bump and run coverage, not to mention having open season on a WR's head.

Different rules, different game.

[Ingtar33]

So quarterbacks didn't exist before the eighties? The one guy prior to then that makes the list is Tarkenton? Wow.

Are you using the 'only QBs I've seen play are eligible' criteria? It would make a little bit more sense then.

yep. I'm only in my 40's. Only QBs I've seen are 80's and later for the most part. Tarkenton I watched enough NFL films "presents" to be "wowed" by him. Always figured he was something special.

[swiper]

yep. I'm only in my 40's. Only QBs I've seen are 80's and later for the most part. Tarkenton I watched enough NFL films "presents" to be "wowed" by him. Always figured he was something special.

He was good, but not the best in the 1970s.

[swiper]

I believe 1975 was Tarkenton's best year. Look at these stats. Remember all these great QBs? Look at how many completed > 60% of their passes. Underscores how the game has changed.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1975/passing.htm

[Mace]

Figure I'll wade in with my opinion...which is....

I don't know.

Glad I got that out of the way, it was stressing me, man.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Tom Brady tied Starr for most NFL Championships this past Super Bowl victory.

Starr has as many career wins as Ken Stabler does, let alone mentioning guys like Jim Kelly even have more.

Otto Graham has the highest winning % of an NFL QB ever.

So what did Starr do better than anyone, exactly?

http://miamimigraine.blogspot.ca/2008/04/greatest-quarterback-of-all-time-bart.html

FRIDAY, APRIL 4, 2008

The Greatest Quarterback of All-Time: Bart Starr

Check out any Greatest Quarterback of All-Time debate on the internet. You’ll find all the usual suspects of the last quarter century: Montana, Favre, Marino, Elway, and now Brady and Manning. A few people with respect for football history might throw in Unitas’ name. The NFL’s 75th Anniversary Team lists Baugh, Graham, Unitas, and Montana as the four greatest quarterbacks of all time. Somehow, all these lists omit the name of one man overwhelmingly qualified to be a candidate for the unofficial title of the greatest of all-time. Allow me to present his career to you in a simple ten-point outline:*

1) Five championships, the most ever
2) All-time leader in career postseason passer rating
3) Only QB to win three consecutive NFL championships
4) Led the NFL five times in passer rating
5) An MVP award
6) Two-time Super Bowl MVP
7) Eight consecutive playoff wins
8) Eighth all-time in career yards per attempt
9) Career rushing average of 5.3 yards per carry*
10) One of only three QB’s to lead team on last minute championship-winning TD drive

...more...

[Mr. Pink]

http://miamimigraine.blogspot.ca/2008/04/greatest-quarterback-of-all-time-bart.html

FRIDAY, APRIL 4, 2008

The Greatest Quarterback of All-Time: Bart Starr

Check out any Greatest Quarterback of All-Time debate on the internet. You’ll find all the usual suspects of the last quarter century: Montana, Favre, Marino, Elway, and now Brady and Manning. A few people with respect for football history might throw in Unitas’ name. The NFL’s 75th Anniversary Team lists Baugh, Graham, Unitas, and Montana as the four greatest quarterbacks of all time. Somehow, all these lists omit the name of one man overwhelmingly qualified to be a candidate for the unofficial title of the greatest of all-time. Allow me to present his career to you in a simple ten-point outline:*

1) Five championships, the most ever
2) All-time leader in career postseason passer rating
3) Only QB to win three consecutive NFL championships
4) Led the NFL five times in passer rating
5) An MVP award
6) Two-time Super Bowl MVP
7) Eight consecutive playoff wins
8) Eighth all-time in career yards per attempt
9) Career rushing average of 5.3 yards per carry*
10) One of only three QB’s to lead team on last minute championship-winning TD drive

...more...

:rofl:

Half of this list isn't even factually accurate.

But don't let that dissuade you.

[Mr. Pink]

Eh...most Qb's TD-INT ratio would be a lot less today if they had to deal with bump and run coverage, not to mention having open season on a WR's head.

Different rules, different game.

Yet Bart Starr's contemporaries managed to put up better numbers in the same environment.

The difference is his contemporaries didn't have the Packer Defense or Vince Lombardi.

[coastal]

I'd laugh if Brady got decapitated.

That being said... it's not even a debate... he's the best ever.

[cookie G]

Yet Bart Starr's contemporaries managed to put up better numbers in the same environment.

The difference is his contemporaries didn't have the Packer Defense or Vince Lombardi.

Uh huh.

Johnny U. is probably considered the best QB of that era, by many.

In his prime, he threw 20 or more INTs five times.

That doesn't include later years when he was throwing more INTs than TDs

His career TD to INT ratio was 1.15

Starr's was 1.10 In his prime years, it was 123-85 or so.


Of his contemporaries, few had a positive TD to INT ratio. Sonny Jurgenson is an exception

[Arm of Harm]

I'd laugh if Brady got decapitated.

That being said... it's not even a debate... he's the best ever.

An argument could be made that Aaron Rodgers is better than Tom Brady.

Rodgers' career yards per attempt (http://www.nfl.com/player/aaronrodgers/2506363/profile) is 7.9, compared to (http://www.nfl.com/player/tombrady/2504211/profile) 7.5 for Brady. Both QBs operate out of pass-oriented offenses, so it's not as though either's yards per attempt is being inflated due to being in a run-oriented offense.

Rodgers has been intercepted on 1.5% of his passes, compared to 1.8% for Brady. 6.4% of Rodgers' passes have been TDs, compared to 5.5% for Brady. Rodgers' career QB rating is 104.1, compared to 97.5 for Brady. Rodgers has accomplished all this while playing behind what is clearly a worse offensive line than Brady's.

I'll define a "full season" as a season in which a QB had at least 14 starts. In 75% of Rodgers' full seasons he's passed for at least 4,000 yards. Never in a full season did Rodgers fall below 3,800 yards. In only 57% of Brady's full seasons did he break the 4,000 yard mark.

On the other hand, there are other areas where Brady's achievements exceed those of Rodgers. Number of championships, total career yards, most yardage in a single season, overall length of career. Both the pro-Brady people and the pro-Rodgers people have compelling arguments to make.

[Mr. Pink]

Uh huh.

Johnny U. is probably considered the best QB of that era, by many.

In his prime, he threw 20 or more INTs five times.

That doesn't include later years when he was throwing more INTs than TDs

His career TD to INT ratio was 1.15

Starr's was 1.10 In his prime years, it was 123-85 or so.


Of his contemporaries, few had a positive TD to INT ratio. Sonny Jurgenson is an exception

Few?

Don Meredith, Frank Ryan, Earl Morrall, Fran Tarkenton, Sonny Jurgenson, Roman Gabriel, Billy Kilmer, Johnny Unitas...so a little over half of the league while Starr was in his prime were able to maintain a positive TD to INT ratio. And that doesn't include AFL guys like Tom Flores who did it.

The difference was none of those other guys had Vince Lombardi on the sideline or the defense the Pack had. Hell, even Starr himself was complete garbage before Lombardi got there and garbage after he left.

[cookie G]

Few?

Don Meredith, Frank Ryan, Earl Morrall, Fran Tarkenton, Sonny Jurgenson, Roman Gabriel, Billy Kilmer, Johnny Unitas...so a little over half of the league while Starr was in his prime were able to maintain a positive TD to INT ratio. And that doesn't include AFL guys like Tom Flores who did it.

The difference was none of those other guys had Vince Lombardi on the sideline or the defense the Pack had. Hell, even Starr himself was complete garbage before Lombardi got there and garbage after he left.

lol. So you go through a list of t he best QB's of that era, and the best you can show is someone who has as Td to INT ratio of 1.3 to 1. Note, that's not a 3 to 1 ratio, its 1.3 TD's for every INT thrown.

Ryan F***ing Fitzpatrick has a TD to INT ratio of 1.2!

Thanks for proving my point.

Different rules, different era.

[Mr. Cynical]

It's really impossible to say "of all time", since the game and the players are light years different for each era.

[Mr. Pink]

lol. So you go through a list of t he best QB's of that era, and the best you can show is someone who has as Td to INT ratio of 1.3 to 1. Note, that's not a 3 to 1 ratio, its 1.3 TD's for every INT thrown.

Ryan F***ing Fitzpatrick has a TD to INT ratio of 1.2!

Thanks for proving my point.

Different rules, different era.

Your point was Starr's TD to INT ratio, not mine. You said Starr and Jurgeson were the exceptions, they clearly were not.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

It's really impossible to say "of all time", since the game and the players are light years different for each era.

Exactly. In the current era 2000-2020 I want Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Rothlinsberger, or Favre

From 80 to 1999
It's the class of 83 (minus Blackledge and Eason), Fouts, Moon, and Montana, and Cunningham.

From 60 to 79 it's Starr, Unitas, Tarkenton, Bradshaw, Staubach, Jurgenson, Gabriel, Namath, and Dawson

From 1940 to 1959 it's Baugh, Van Brocklin, Tittel, Lane, Graham.

Of these your question should be whose game would transcend the sands of time, that is to say who could come in and play today and do well. I think that list is clearly in no order Brady, Montana, Unitas, Manning, Staubach, Favre, Marino, Kelly, Tarkenton, or Starr. Give me any of these qbs and I could build a dynasty. Who is the best ever? I still say Unitas but as you say different era different game. Brady and Manning are clearly the best of this generation but again Brady and Manning may have had much shorter careers when defenders were actually allowed to all but kill qbs

[CommissarSpartacus]

Exactly. In the current era 2000-2020 I want Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Rothlinsberger, or Favre

From 80 to 1999
It's the class of 83 (minus Blackledge and Eason), Fouts, Moon, and Montana, and Cunningham.

From 60 to 79 it's Starr, Unitas, Tarkenton, Bradshaw, Staubach, Jurgenson, Gabriel, Namath, and Dawson

From 1940 to 1959 it's Baugh, Van Brocklin, Tittel, Lane, Graham.

Of these your question should be whose game would transcend the sands of time, that is to say who could come in and play today and do well. I think that list is clearly in no order Brady, Montana, Unitas, Manning, Staubach, Favre, Marino, Kelly, Tarkenton, or Starr. Give me any of these qbs and I could build a dynasty. Who is the best ever? I still say Unitas but as you say different era different game. Brady and Manning are clearly the best of this generation but again Brady and Manning may have had much shorter careers when defenders were actually allowed to all but kill qbs

Of all the qbs you listed, the only ones I didn't see play were Baugh, Lane and Graham.

I've watched every single Superbowl.

I watched the NFL before the Bills were ever a twinkle in Ralph Wilson's eye.

And Bart Starr not only MADE Vince Lombardi's reputation, he made the reputations of all the other Packers who played with him.

Just to be clear, in no way was I a Packers fan. I was a rabid Cleveland Browns fan and prayed that the Packers would lose every time they played.

But they hardly ever did, especially in the crunch.

Bart Starr wouldn't let them.

[baalworship]

If I had to pick a QB for just one game I go to Steve Young. His incredible accuracy and mobility make him a ridiculously tough out. He will not be in the discussion for GOT because he had a much shorter career.

[CommissarSpartacus]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/147037-bart-starr-is-clearly-underrated

Why Bart Starr Is Underrated

In today’s*NFL, fans focus too much on the present day. We love the players that we witness play, however, many of us fail to learn about the players of the past.

I was recently at a sports bar and I overheard a conversation about the greatest quarterbacks of all time. As a lifelong NFL fan, I decided to participate in the conversation. When I heard their list, I was shocked. Nowhere in their list did I hear the name Bart Starr.

After realizing this I asked them, “Why isn’t Bart Starr in any of your lists? Clearly, he was one of the all time greats that played this game.”

Their answer was “he had Hall of Fame talent all around him, besides, his stats weren’t even that good.”

I excused myself from the table as soon as I heard the ludicrous statement.

Many NFL fans today, fail to have knowledge on the history of this eminent game. Many fail to do extensive research and adhere to their colleagues', friends', or families' accepted beliefs.

They fail to realize that Starr has achieved more success in the era that he played in than most of the quarterbacks that they consider to be better than he was.

Starr was a clutch and prolific passer who led his teammates to adore and admire him. He did nothing but win month after month, and year after year. He was the on-field general of one of the greatest if not the greatest dynasties the NFL has ever seen.

He was a samurai of the*Packers*offense, slicing through defenses with his efficient passes. He was just what his last name said he was: a star.

However, in the modern world, his accomplishments are thrown out in the streets like garbage. His achievements are stomped on by the feet of inanity. Some even go as far as to call him overrated.

...more...

[Jan Reimers]

I've watched QBs from Otto Graham, Y.A. Tittle and Johnny Unitas -- who should be part of this discussion -- through today's guys. I would probably rank Peyton Manning as the best, followed by Brady, Elway, Unitas and Graham.

[yordad]

If we're talking the most physically gifted then that's Michael Vick for me.
Randall Cunningham

[Generalissimus Gibby]

If I had to pick a QB for just one game I go to Steve Young. His incredible accuracy and mobility make him a ridiculously tough out. He will not be in the discussion for GOT because he had a much shorter career.

He was in the league for what 14 years? No, he isn't in the discussion for two reasons

1. He came in after Montana
2. He had essentially the same talent around him as Montana and only won one championship.

[Buddo]

Joe Montana. I've only watched guys from his era onwards, to be fair, so there are some who are probably being unjustly dismissed, but Joe was the only QB I've ever seen, who I was convinced would get a game winning score, every time I watched him play, and one was needed. (The big shock was on the rare occasion when he didn't get it done)

I'd take Peyton over Brady, any day of the week, for a number of reasons, not least of which I think Peyton on the Patsies, could have done the same thing that Brady has, but I don't think Brady could have achieved what Peyton did with the Colts.

I also dislike tainted numbers, and Brady's numbers are, imho, definitely tainted, due to the variety of cheating the Patsies have done over the years.

[Arm of Harm]

For what it's worth, this season the Packers are 4-1 with Aaron Rodgers, and 0-3 without him (http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/41731/packers-promising-season-likely-ruined-by-aaron-rodgers-broken-collarbone). I've never seen a QB carry a team the way Rodgers carries the Packers. In their Super Bowl win over the Steelers, that Packers team had absolutely no business even competing against the Steelers, let alone beating them. That win was all Rodgers.

It's too bad the Packers never surrounded him with a complete football team. I include the year they won the Super Bowl in saying that.

[Mr. Pink]

I'll give you the best QB of all time to never be able to realize his potential...

Greg Cook.

There is no better could have been story in the NFL at the QB position than him.

Dude was throwing 70 yard TD passes with a torn rotator cuff and because of when he got hurt, there wasn't the surgery and technology to fix it like there is now.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

For what it's worth, this season the Packers are 4-1 with Aaron Rodgers, and 0-3 without him (http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/41731/packers-promising-season-likely-ruined-by-aaron-rodgers-broken-collarbone). I've never seen a QB carry a team the way Rodgers carries the Packers. In their Super Bowl win over the Steelers, that Packers team had absolutely no business even competing against the Steelers, let alone beating them. That win was all Rodgers.

It's too bad the Packers never surrounded him with a complete football team. I include the year they won the Super Bowl in saying that.

You have already forgotten how rancid Indy was without Manning? Sure they got Luck the very next draft and until he showed he was the second coming of Bert Jones they looked competent but the Colts were perennial Superbowl contenders with Manning and pure garbage without him.

[The Jokeman]

Even as a Bills fan, I was always partial to John Elway. I still call him the GOAT (of my lifetime anyway) but am like you and starting to look at Aaron Rodgers instead.

Elway gets my vote too. He could pass and run, 14 of his 16 seasons he had a record over .500. Six AFC championship games and 5 Super Bowl appearances.

[chris66]

There were like 8 teams when Graham played. Still a pretty impressive run
You also have to remember that the nfl championship game would be on par with todays afc or nfc champ game. When you look at it that way Brady has been to 11 and won 7.

[Mouldsie]

For what it's worth, this season the Packers are 4-1 with Aaron Rodgers, and 0-3 without him (http://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/41731/packers-promising-season-likely-ruined-by-aaron-rodgers-broken-collarbone). I've never seen a QB carry a team the way Rodgers carries the Packers. In their Super Bowl win over the Steelers, that Packers team had absolutely no business even competing against the Steelers, let alone beating them. That win was all Rodgers.

It's too bad the Packers never surrounded him with a complete football team. I include the year they won the Super Bowl in saying that.
Manning and Rodgers have not had the support that Brady has had. The Pats are not a disaster when their QB is out.

[Arm of Harm]

You have already forgotten how rancid Indy was without Manning? Sure they got Luck the very next draft and until he showed he was the second coming of Bert Jones they looked competent but the Colts were perennial Superbowl contenders with Manning and pure garbage without him.

During the Manning years, the Colts typically had a good running game. First you had Edgerrin James, later Joseph Addai. On the other hand, the Packers' running game has typically been disappointing during the Aaron Rodgers years.

You look at the Colts' offensive line during the Manning years, and it was normally good. Not outstanding. Not "Cowboys of the mid-'90s" good. But it was good. Aaron Rodgers' offensive line has typically ranged from below average, to pure garbage. In the Super Bowl, Rodgers had to run for his life on practically every passing play. His throws were highly accurate, despite getting no pass protection at all.

You point to the Colts 2011 season as an example of where that team would have been without Manning. And that's fair. But the team was already declining even with Manning at the helm. In 2011 the Colts had the NFL's 28th best (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/index.htm) scoring defense. The last time their defense had been that bad was in 2001, when Manning led them to a 6-10 season. Add to that the fact that Curtis Painter had no business (http://www.nfl.com/player/curtispainter/81300/profile) being in the NFL, even as a 3rd string QB. You take one of the league's worst defenses, a Curtis Painter at starting QB, and an aging/retiring offensive supporting cast, and it's not hard to see how you get to a 2-14 season.

[TigerJ]

I think you can find QBs who, for a short time were/have been better than Brady (Montana. Rodgers, Peyton Manning) but if you consider the entire body of work, I think you have to go with Brady.