QB Question

[Cntrygal]

I haven't been able to see very many games over the last couple years, so this is a real question. NOT one designed to create a ****storm of insults. (The old-timers can fill you new-timers in on my view of ****stormers :D )

Does Tyrod really suck that bad, or is it that as Bills fans we're so accustomed to disappointment that we want change for the sake of changing? I mean, it's late October and we're not already mathematically removed from the possibility of the playoffs........


Thank in advance for some serious feedback.


****stormers beware. :insane::boozer:

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Well hell.... I forgot that word was filtered. Poo-Poo just doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Night Train]

Tyrod is good when he's running, hit or miss when he's throwing.

[YardRat]

IMO it's not necessarily a case of "he's really bad" as much as it is he's not "really good".

[Cntrygal]

Tyrod is good when he's running, hit or miss when he's throwing.


So would he make a better RB or even TE? Has he started showing improvement as the season has gone on?

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IMO it's not necessarily a case of "he's really bad" as much as it is he's not "really good".

How is he comparing with rest that we've had over the last 17 years?

[YardRat]

How is he comparing with rest that we've had over the last 17 years?

Depends on the perspective. Wins and losses? About average. Production in the passing game (yards, attempts, completions,)? Worse than most, although if one gets into some "advanced metrics" the numbers can be crunched to show "better". Turnovers and running the ball? Better.

[Thurmal]

He's like the guy who shows up to parties and never brings beer but, to his credit, doesn't really drink any beer that's there either.

[Cntrygal]

He's like the guy who shows up to parties and never brings beer but, to his credit, doesn't really drink any beer that's there either.

ROFL

I love the analogy!

[Mouldsie]

Depends on the perspective. Wins and losses? About average. Production in the passing game (yards, attempts, completions,)? Worse than most, although if one gets into some "advanced metrics" the numbers can be crunched to show "better". Turnovers and running the ball? Better.

He's the only QB with a winning record that we've had since Kelly. Stop using your feelings and start using facts Yardie!

Best QBR since Kelly as well. Most points per drive too. Best TD:INT ratio too. I can go on...



He's not a "franchise QB" but he's not nearly as bad as fans say. Change for the sake of change is a dangerous game.

[YardRat]

He's the only QB with a winning record that we've had since Kelly. Stop using your feelings and start using facts Yardie!

That's not true, Orton was 7-5.

Best QBR since Kelly as well. Most points per drive too. Best TD:INT ratio too. I can go on...

As I said, some advanced metrics could show 'better'. On a side note, QBR is a joke, anyway.


He's not a "franchise QB" but he's not nearly as bad as fans say. Change for the sake of change is a dangerous game.

Also as I said "it's not necessarily a case of "he's really bad" as much as it is he's not "really good".

[OpIv37]

The good about Tyrod: He doesn't turn the ball over. He makes plays with his legs. He has arm strength.

The bad about Tyrod: He doesn't anticipate WR's coming open. Sometimes he doesn't see wide open WR's. His ability to feel pressure is mediocre at best- he often holds the ball too long when he could scramble for a minimal gain or just throw it away to avoid a loss. Worst of all, his ball placement is terrible. Often, even when he completes a pass, he slows the WR down and eliminates the ability for YAC.


My honest opinion is that Tyrod is the quintessential backup QB in the NFL. He doesn't lose games on his own, but he rarely wins games on his own. He's the type of guy who can come in and steal a few wins if the D and running game hold up, but he's not the player who's going to engineer 300 yard games or double digit comebacks in the 4th.

[Cntrygal]

The good about Tyrod: He doesn't turn the ball over. He makes plays with his legs. He has arm strength.

The bad about Tyrod: He doesn't anticipate WR's coming open. Sometimes he doesn't see wide open WR's. His ability to feel pressure is mediocre at best- he often holds the ball too long when he could scramble for a minimal gain or just throw it away to avoid a loss. Worst of all, his ball placement is terrible. Often, even when he completes a pass, he slows the WR down and eliminates the ability for YAC.


My honest opinion is that Tyrod is the quintessential backup QB in the NFL. He doesn't lose games on his own, but he rarely wins games on his own. He's the type of guy who can come in and steal a few wins if the D and running game hold up, but he's not the player who's going to engineer 300 yard games or double digit comebacks in the 4th.

Nice explanation, Thanks Op!

[justasportsfan]

He's a back up QB that can run.

[Arm of Harm]

Whether Tyrod is good or bad depends on what you need.

Maybe your defense is playing well and generating turnovers. Maybe the running game is churning out yards. At that point, maybe all you want from your QB is a guy who will make some plays with his legs, and get you a few passing yards here and there. Also, you want your QB to not turn the ball over. Tyrod will give you all that. He'll even hit the occasional deep ball.

But now let's say that your defensive play is just okay, and you haven't generated that many turnovers. Your running game is also just so-so. At that point you're going to want a lot of yards from your passing game. Tyrod isn't going to give you that. His accuracy and information processing ability are too limited. He also seems to have plateaued in both those areas.

As a pure passer, Tyrod is a little below average, compared to the other post-Kelly QBs we've had. But his running ability is amazing, and partially balances out some of his weaknesses as a passer.

[Cntrygal]

Whether Tyrod is good or bad depends on what you need.

Maybe your defense is playing well and generating turnovers. Maybe the running game is churning out yards. At that point, maybe all you want from your QB is a guy who will make some plays with his legs, and get you a few passing yards here and there. Also, you want your QB to not turn the ball over. Tyrod will give you all that. He'll even hit the occasional deep ball.

But now let's say that your defensive play is just okay, and you haven't generated that many turnovers. Your running game is also just so-so. At that point you're going to want a lot of yards from your passing game. Tyrod isn't going to give you that. His accuracy and information processing ability are too limited. He also seems to have plateaued in both those areas.

As a pure passer, Tyrod is a little below average, compared to the other post-Kelly QBs we've had. But his running ability is amazing, and partially balances out some of his weaknesses as a passer.

Has his passing game improved at all? Do you think that with more starting experience/coaching he'll "get it", or eventually he'll end up as the experienced back-up?

[OpIv37]

Has his passing game improved at all? Do you think that with more starting experience/coaching he'll "get it", or eventually he'll end up as the experienced back-up?

Not from what I've seen. He improved somewhat in 2015. In 2016, he arguably regressed. In 2017, he's just the same. No better, no worse. He hasn't gotten it yet, and after 2 1/3 seasons of starting, it's highly unlikely that he ever will. At this point, he is what he is.

[Ingtar33]

Cntrygal; he's much better then we've had, and not good enough.

Basically he's good enough to occasionally make the playoffs, but you'd need a really good team around him and a scheme that plays to his strengths to make him be any sort of benefit to the team. He helps the running game a lot thanks to his threat of running, a lot of teams are forced to hold back their pass rush to prevent him from gashing them by escaping the pocket, so most teams do "containment" rushes and blitzes up the middle, hoping to crush the pocket and give him no where to run. this of course makes the line's job rather easy (If we started Peterman, we'd see how good/bad that line is really quick, as defenses would no longer hold back on their pass rushes; I suspect our RT would get Peterman killed, as when pass blocking the right tackle is little better then a turnstile, Taylor makes those problems a lot more manageable).

He's too good to get rid of, because you can do MUCH MUCH worse, and yet he's not someone you want to keep. The Redskins are in a similar situation with Cousins (though Cousins is a better QB then Taylor, he's also not quite good enough, though part of the cousins problem is he's asking for a lot more money then he's worth). Frankly, he's basically Alex Smith. Well he's Alex Smith before KC/Andy Reid, actually he's still basically Alex Smith, just this year Smith has been having a career year, prior to this year Smiths numbers looked eerily similar to Taylor's. A lot of people forget we're basically playing offense this year with practice squad WRs and a rookie WR who can't catch. It's terrifying how good Taylor looked last week when we added a guy off the waver wire who was CUT FROM THE BEARS (a team with WRs almost as terrible as the Bills), funny how a 3rd string/PS type player made Taylor look all world last weekend. (All he needed was a WR who could catch)

Listen the team is asking him to become a WC offense guy. That typically takes a few years for QBs who've never played in it, and he's well in advance of many WC qbs at this point. He's not killing us. He's just not helping us as much as many would like.

I get it. I too want a better QB then Taylor. But I don't want worse. Which is why I don't see the point in bashing Taylor every 4 minutes. He's not good or bad enough to really get passionate about. I'm just hoping he's good enough to help cover up the warts on this thin roster, so we can snap this playoff streak and see some post season play this year. it's been since the music city miracle. It's been so long I don't even feel a pang of upset at that anymore.

[tomz]

One thing which separates the really good quarterbacks from those on the level of Tyrod: The former can pretty much get on the page with almost any receiver brought in (think about Brady or Rodgers). Tyrod needs a zillion reps to generate chemistry (see Deonte Thompson) or trust.

[Mace]

The good about Tyrod: He doesn't turn the ball over. He makes plays with his legs. He has arm strength.

The bad about Tyrod: He doesn't anticipate WR's coming open. Sometimes he doesn't see wide open WR's. His ability to feel pressure is mediocre at best- he often holds the ball too long when he could scramble for a minimal gain or just throw it away to avoid a loss. Worst of all, his ball placement is terrible. Often, even when he completes a pass, he slows the WR down and eliminates the ability for YAC.


My honest opinion is that Tyrod is the quintessential backup QB in the NFL. He doesn't lose games on his own, but he rarely wins games on his own. He's the type of guy who can come in and steal a few wins if the D and running game hold up, but he's not the player who's going to engineer 300 yard games or double digit comebacks in the 4th.

Yeah, I have to say this is right on target imho, pure and simple.

[Mouldsie]

One thing which separates the really good quarterbacks from those on the level of Tyrod: The former can pretty much get on the page with almost any receiver brought in (think about Brady or Rodgers). Tyrod needs a zillion reps to generate chemistry (see Deonte Thompson) or trust.

What?

[Forward_Lateral]

He's a tweener

In between a backup and a starter. He can show signs of being capable of being a good QB, but then he'll make a series of plays that will make you want to take a dump on your neighbor's roof

[Arm of Harm]

Has his passing game improved at all? Do you think that with more starting experience/coaching he'll "get it", or eventually he'll end up as the experienced back-up?

When I look at Tyrod's performance over time, I see a flat, horizontal line. No upward slope. Sometimes, he'll put together a couple games when he's playing better than the flat line. Other times he'll have a couple games where he's below the flat line. Over the long run his average level of play always seems to come back to that flat line.

Last season the Bills had the 3rd-worst passing offense in the NFL, when ranked according to yards. Thus far this season it's the 4th-worst. The flat line remains flat, despite the change in offensive coordinator, offensive scheme, and receiving personnel.

[Novacane]

I think he'd be one of if not the best back QB in the league.

[Novacane]

The good about Tyrod: He doesn't turn the ball over. He makes plays with his legs. He has arm strength.

The bad about Tyrod: He doesn't anticipate WR's coming open. Sometimes he doesn't see wide open WR's. His ability to feel pressure is mediocre at best- he often holds the ball too long when he could scramble for a minimal gain or just throw it away to avoid a loss. Worst of all, his ball placement is terrible. Often, even when he completes a pass, he slows the WR down and eliminates the ability for YAC.


My honest opinion is that Tyrod is the quintessential backup QB in the NFL. He doesn't lose games on his own, but he rarely wins games on his own. He's the type of guy who can come in and steal a few wins if the D and running game hold up, but he's not the player who's going to engineer 300 yard games or double digit comebacks in the 4th.



This is the perfect description of Tyrod. Nice job OP!

[Topas]

When I look at Tyrod's performance over time, I see a flat, horizontal line. No upward slope. Sometimes, he'll put together a couple games when he's playing better than the flat line. Other times he'll have a couple games where he's below the flat line. Over the long run his average level of play always seems to come back to that flat line.

Last season the Bills had the 3rd-worst passing offense in the NFL, when ranked according to yards. Thus far this season it's the 4th-worst. The flat line remains flat, despite the change in offensive coordinator, offensive scheme, and receiving personnel.

To be fair, the WRs became a lot worse.

[justasportsfan]

Wont ever be consistently good.

[Cntrygal]

Cntrygal; he's much better then we've had, and not good enough.

Basically he's good enough to occasionally make the playoffs, but you'd need a really good team around him and a scheme that plays to his strengths to make him be any sort of benefit to the team. He helps the running game a lot thanks to his threat of running, a lot of teams are forced to hold back their pass rush to prevent him from gashing them by escaping the pocket, so most teams do "containment" rushes and blitzes up the middle, hoping to crush the pocket and give him no where to run. this of course makes the line's job rather easy (If we started Peterman, we'd see how good/bad that line is really quick, as defenses would no longer hold back on their pass rushes; I suspect our RT would get Peterman killed, as when pass blocking the right tackle is little better then a turnstile, Taylor makes those problems a lot more manageable).

He's too good to get rid of, because you can do MUCH MUCH worse, and yet he's not someone you want to keep. The Redskins are in a similar situation with Cousins (though Cousins is a better QB then Taylor, he's also not quite good enough, though part of the cousins problem is he's asking for a lot more money then he's worth). Frankly, he's basically Alex Smith. Well he's Alex Smith before KC/Andy Reid, actually he's still basically Alex Smith, just this year Smith has been having a career year, prior to this year Smiths numbers looked eerily similar to Taylor's. A lot of people forget we're basically playing offense this year with practice squad WRs and a rookie WR who can't catch. It's terrifying how good Taylor looked last week when we added a guy off the waver wire who was CUT FROM THE BEARS (a team with WRs almost as terrible as the Bills), funny how a 3rd string/PS type player made Taylor look all world last weekend. (All he needed was a WR who could catch)

Listen the team is asking him to become a WC offense guy. That typically takes a few years for QBs who've never played in it, and he's well in advance of many WC qbs at this point. He's not killing us. He's just not helping us as much as many would like.

I get it. I too want a better QB then Taylor. But I don't want worse. Which is why I don't see the point in bashing Taylor every 4 minutes. He's not good or bad enough to really get passionate about. I'm just hoping he's good enough to help cover up the warts on this thin roster, so we can snap this playoff streak and see some post season play this year. it's been since the music city miracle. It's been so long I don't even feel a pang of upset at that anymore.

I've missed reading your breakdowns. You manage to explain things so that anyone can understand what you're saying AND you manage to avoid sounding condescending!

And if you're right about the RT (and they were to put Peterman in), I think the majority of the fanbase would implode.

[Cntrygal]

WOW! I'm going to get to see the Bills play TWICE this week!

[ublinkwescore]

He leaves a lot of yardage on the field and kills too many drives because he doesn't tuck it and run with it when he should. Take the ****ing first down whenever you can get it dip $#!t!!!!other than that, we could do a he'll of a lot worse.

[Luisito23]

Don't disappear like that again C-Gal...:earpoke:

[swiper]

Tyrod is good when he's running, hit or miss when he's throwing.

He's just not the final answer. Just not good enough. Still struggles with pocket awareness (although you can see he's trying to improve). He still has trouble hitting receivers over the middle (its been well documented how high his % of passes to the side lines).

He's just not good enough and isn't ever going to be. We've seen enough. We don't need Aaron Rodgers, but we need somebody above the Eli Manning line. Good example: Carson Wentz. Maybe Kirk Cousins. 2017 Alex Smith (although I don't think that's going to last forever either).

[Ingtar33]

I've missed reading your breakdowns. You manage to explain things so that anyone can understand what you're saying AND you manage to avoid sounding condescending!

And if you're right about the RT (and they were to put Peterman in), I think the majority of the fanbase would implode.

thanks for the kind words. Good to see you too.

[Typ0]

Taylor has a limitation he has shown no signs of ever overcoming ... he can't seem to process the throwing lanes in front of him fast enough so that part of the field he isn't able to attack aggressively. Other than that the guy is a damn decent QB I have no idea why he puts up with so much BS in Buffalo.

[TigerJ]

Ingtar probably said it far better than I could. Tyrod is the best QB Buffalo has had in years, but with Tyrod at QB, I think the best the Bills can manage is to be a borderline playoff team. I am not a proponent of tanking, so I would not arbitrarily get rid of him in hopes of drafting the next Carson Wentz, but if he is your QB, you have to be looking to upgrade.

[justasportsfan]

QB Question answered last night?

Time to draft one who can be consistent above average.

Analyst " the bills offense is not designed to come from behind" .

[swiper]

I think he'd be one of if not the best back QB in the league.

Nope. Never has shown he can carry a team on his back.

[Arm of Harm]

Ingtar probably said it far better than I could. Tyrod is the best QB Buffalo has had in years, but with Tyrod at QB, I think the best the Bills can manage is to be a borderline playoff team. I am not a proponent of tanking, so I would not arbitrarily get rid of him in hopes of drafting the next Carson Wentz, but if he is your QB, you have to be looking to upgrade.

Our best post-Flutie QB was Ryan Fitzpatrick. In Fitz's best season (http://www.nfl.com/player/ryanfitzpatrick/2506581/profile) for the Bills he put up 3800 passing yards, and put up 3400 passing yards in his second-best season for us. Tyrod has put up (http://www.nfl.com/player/tyrodtaylor/2495240/profile) 3000 passing yards in his first two seasons as the Bills starter, and is on pace for 3200 passing yards this season.

Back when Fitzpatrick was our starter, I was firmly of the opinion he was not the long-term answer. I clamored then, and I'm clamoring now, for the Bills to upgrade the QB position in the draft. If they do use a first round pick on a QB, they need to not be idiots about it. No more taking QBs based on outstanding physical tools, while ignoring characteristics such as accuracy and information processing ability. I think it's reasonable to believe that McDermott and Beane are much better at QB evaluation than any of our previous post-Polian GMs had been.

[sukie]

Tyrod can manage a game. I speak for myself on this. I want a General leading the charge... not a manager.

[Mouldsie]

Tyrod can manage a game. I speak for myself on this. I want a General leading the charge... not a manager.

Who is this general? Unless it's Nathan Peterman I think we're gonna have to root for the manager this year.

[Mouldsie]

Our best post-Flutie QB was Ryan Fitzpatrick. In Fitz's best season (http://www.nfl.com/player/ryanfitzpatrick/2506581/profile) for the Bills he put up 3800 passing yards, and put up 3400 passing yards in his second-best season for us. Tyrod has put up (http://www.nfl.com/player/tyrodtaylor/2495240/profile) 3000 passing yards in his first two seasons as the Bills starter, and is on pace for 3200 passing yards this season.

Back when Fitzpatrick was our starter, I was firmly of the opinion he was not the long-term answer. I clamored then, and I'm clamoring now, for the Bills to upgrade the QB position in the draft. If they do use a first round pick on a QB, they need to not be idiots about it. No more taking QBs based on outstanding physical tools, while ignoring characteristics such as accuracy and information processing ability. I think it's reasonable to believe that McDermott and Beane are much better at QB evaluation than any of our previous post-Polian GMs had been.

Fitzpatrick's game killing INT's were not better QB play