View Full Version : Way to blow this one, TD
casdhf
08-19-2003, 04:37 PM
from Len P at ESPN:
Remember, this team wouldn't have taken Randle El in the second round of the '02 draft if former Pittsburgh personnel chief Tom Donahoe hadn't snatched defensive end Ryan Denney, a player the Steelers coveted. It was a stroke of good fortune because in Randle El, the Steelers got a diverse playmaker who can score in five different ways.
Coulda solved out KR duties and not have been stuck with another scrub DE. :ebenezer:
THATHURMANATOR
08-19-2003, 05:12 PM
Cant win them all...
mchurchfie
08-19-2003, 05:15 PM
Yo Thurm!:up:
THATHURMANATOR
08-19-2003, 05:16 PM
WHAT UP?
R. Rich
08-19-2003, 05:24 PM
Do you think we really would've taken him as opposed to Denney? Remember, we took Josh Reed, who I think will be a very good WR for us. I just don't know how high they had Randle El rated as a WR, since he was the quarterback at IU.
ArcticWildMan
08-19-2003, 06:29 PM
No way we would have taken Randle El.
All I know is that Denney wasn't a good pic.
DraftBoy
08-19-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
All I know is that Denney wasn't a good pic.
Really? so you is this just your opinion or is this formulated from your hard hitting stats that you choose to share in almost every thread where somebody dares argue with you?
Voltron
08-19-2003, 07:38 PM
Way to give him a chance to prove himself Wys.
V,
Plain and simple! If you take a look at all 2nd rounders from last year, and compare their expectations v. their performances or "what they brought to the table", I'd wager you that Denney's is among the greatest!
He was a "trade up 2nd rounder", not some 6th round stiff!
ArcticWildMan
08-19-2003, 08:38 PM
OK...lets list a few 2nd rd DE's and DT's...tell me what they did.
3 35 Detroit Edwards, Kalimba DE 6-5 265
10 42 Indianapolis Tripplett, Larry DT 6-2 305
11 43 Kansas City Freeman, Eddie DT 6-5 310
20 52 Baltimore (from Washington) Weaver, Anthony DT 6-3 296
28 60 Seattle (from Green Bay) Palepoi, Anton DE 6-3 279
29 61 Buffalo (from San Francisco) Denney, Ryan DE 6-7 276
OK...now tell me...how is Denney any worse than any of these others? Considering he was the LAST defensive lineman taken in Rd 2, I'd say you are being a little too premature in judging him.
http://www.dennys.com/images/MenuItems/Menu/sampler.gif
ArcticWildMan
08-19-2003, 08:48 PM
Kalimba Edwards is so exceptional, he isn't even listed on the NFL website.
Larry Triplett had a stellar 0 sacks and 19 tackles in 7 games
Eddie Freeman who was drafted AFTER Edwards and Triplett, had 4 sacks and 12 tackles.
Anthony Weaver had 4 sacks and 14 tackles.
Anton Palipoi had a whopping 1 sack and 12 tackles.
Those are hardly stellar numbers for players who by your logic, should be contributing a lot more due to them being 2nd round picks.
Somewhere I hear the word BINGO coming up.......
ArcticWildMan
08-19-2003, 08:57 PM
OK...now to take it even one step further..
Let's take a look at the DE's drafted in the 3rd round and compare....
Dennis Johnson, last draft pick in the third round (98th overall pick).
0 sacks, 10 tackles.
Will Overstreet, drafted in the 15th spot of round 3 (80th overall pick) by Atlanta. Another player who has contributed so much to his team, he isn't even listed on the NFL site.
Would you have preferred we pick one of these two guys?
bernielivsey_1
08-19-2003, 11:16 PM
:biggrin: Your all right lets fire TD. :wail:
Randel-el was a lucky longshot. Get over it. If Ryan gets better every year he'll be pretty good next year and TD's a geeneyus again. :biggrin:
northernbillfan
08-20-2003, 02:55 AM
Looks to me that Denney is stacking up well against his draft mates. I don't think he'll be just another scrub DE. ;)
clumping platelets
08-20-2003, 03:13 AM
Psst......Moulds didn't break out until his 3rd year
Not every player can be fully productive in their first season. Parellel this to any of our chosen professions, how many "new employees" are fully capable of handling their respective jobs in the first year. It takes minimum 3 yrs experience to fully handle my position on overnights.
Now TD has done an outstanding job since becoming GM/Prez but not every decision is going to work out and some may be second guessed :rolleyes: but I fully support TD and his FO and understand, as an educated fan, that he's not gonna hit paydirt on every player and/or decision.
TheGhostofJimKelly
08-20-2003, 07:30 AM
ArcticWildMan is now the king of this thread.
justasportsfan
08-20-2003, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
V,
Plain and simple! If you take a look at all 2nd rounders from last year, and compare their expectations v. their performances or "what they brought to the table", I'd wager you that Denney's is among the greatest!
He was a "trade up 2nd rounder", not some 6th round stiff!
Kinda like Rob Johnson :D Talk about expectations and trading our 1st rd. for that stiff.
justasportsfan
08-20-2003, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by clumping platelets
Psst......Moulds didn't break out until his 3rd year
Psst Rob didn't break out until his.....well he still hasn't broken out but he's broken a few body parts . That should count for breaking something. :scratch:
Originally posted by ArcticWildMan
OK...lets list a few 2nd rd DE's and DT's...tell me what they did.
3 35 Detroit Edwards, Kalimba DE 6-5 265
10 42 Indianapolis Tripplett, Larry DT 6-2 305
11 43 Kansas City Freeman, Eddie DT 6-5 310
20 52 Baltimore (from Washington) Weaver, Anthony DT 6-3 296
28 60 Seattle (from Green Bay) Palepoi, Anton DE 6-3 279
29 61 Buffalo (from San Francisco) Denney, Ryan DE 6-7 276
OK...now tell me...how is Denney any worse than any of these others? Considering he was the LAST defensive lineman taken in Rd 2, I'd say you are being a little too premature in judging him.
Right!
NOW, how 'bout the other 25 picks in that round!
Are you saying that those guys all were worse than Denney? I find that difficult to believe since Denney was so bad that he couldn't play, at a position where we had no one, OH, BTW!
B/c it's very unusual for a 2nd rounder, or first, to not play at all in their first season! Tripplett played. Can't say he was marvelous, but at least he warranted some playing time.
Weaver by the way is starting this year! He also played halfway decently last year. I watched b/c I wanted him here. He SAH contributed more than Denney did. Edwards is at least 2nd on Detroit's DC. Denney, other than he was a 2nd rounder, may not even make the team!
When you factor in that we had a HUGE hole at DE where no one stepped up, the fact that Denney got no PT doesn't exactly speak volumes to the notion that he was a good pick, especially as a trade up, in the 2nd round!
But either way, you've registered your opinion that you think he was a fine pick in round #2 as a trade up thereby supporting TD's decision.
I just don't see it! In fact I've seen precious little of anything from him.
You know, here in Buffalo we're noted for using the league's dregs to prove how marvelous our players are!
Denney's better than a handful of other busts!
Bledsoe's better than RJ! OH Boy...!
Posey's better than no one!
How about comparing players to other players who are the best at their positions instead of always trying to prove them better than some stiff somewhere. If we, if TD and GW, started doing that then perhaps we'd have built a winning team instead of hoping for aging vets past their primes w/ enormous question marks over their heads w/ one single season of anything other than nominal performance behind them to "step up" and do what any normal person wouldn't guess they would!
Instead of drafting guys who already have the things that can't be coached and are weak on those things which can, we draft players who excelled but not against the best! We draft players who don't have non-coachable traits such as speed, Kelsay/Denney, necessary and who overachieved in college.
I don't get it. Then instead of drafting guys like William Joseph who many admit has an enormous upside, we take an injured RB that likely won't even play for a year and then who knows what we'll get! We take Kelsay instead, a player w/ no speed that I've seen! Have you? Can "speed" be coached in? I don't think so. They said about him that he "doesn't beat superior competition!" What about that statement indicates that he'll succeed in the pros?!
I just don't get it.
I just don't get this argument!
You guys think Denney was a great choice, fine! I don't think he's gonna be on the team for long. I also don't think Kelsay will be here more than 2/3 years either and due entirely to performance or lack thereof. If they are, all I can say is that we're gonna be in trouble and surely won't have the type of D that at least I'm looking forward to having once again.
You think that they were great picks for that round, fine! What can I say. I don't think it speaks too well for anyone supporting that notion. Most first and second rounders, most that is, perform at least to a level where they can be on the field. Denney wasn't on the field last year, in fact, probably least of all of our DEs. He won't be on it much this year either. IMO if he's retained, again, it'll only be b/c we have no one and they'd prefer to go w/ youth than w/ Jones who'll likely be cut now, or McKenzie who's in his 30s.
Originally posted by ArcticWildMan
Kalimba Edwards is so exceptional, he isn't even listed on the NFL website.
Larry Triplett had a stellar 0 sacks and 19 tackles in 7 games
Eddie Freeman who was drafted AFTER Edwards and Triplett, had 4 sacks and 12 tackles.
Anthony Weaver had 4 sacks and 14 tackles.
Anton Palipoi had a whopping 1 sack and 12 tackles.
Those are hardly stellar numbers for players who by your logic, should be contributing a lot more due to them being 2nd round picks.
And those are better than being 3rd on the DC w/ only 9 total tackles and 0 of anything else how?
I'd take Weaver in two seconds in a straight up trade for Denney!
Same w/ Freeman!
Patrick76777
08-20-2003, 08:27 AM
I was never a big fan of the Denney pick.
But I'll still hold out hope and give him a chance.
Originally posted by northernbillfan
Looks to me that Denney is stacking up well against his draft mates. I don't think he'll be just another scrub DE. ;)
Based on what? He had 7 solo and 2 assisted tackles, nothing else. Does it get any less insignificant. Well, I suppose not playing at all.... :rolleyes:
I don't see it! He was so bad last year at a position where we had a void, that I don't see how that statement can be made. If Denney were anything, why would TD have drafted Kelsay? What's next, another such DE next year?
Originally posted by clumping platelets
Psst......Moulds didn't break out until his 3rd year
Not every player can be fully productive in their first season.
Moulds didn't even have the opportunity as we had WRs then. He played behind WRs Reed, Early, and Tasker. You remember those guys, don't you? :huh:
Unlike Denney, who was given every opportunity to show something but failed in spades!
Originally posted by Patrick76777
I was never a big fan of the Denney pick.
But I'll still hold out hope and give him a chance.
He'll get this season, but if he can't prove that he's at least a #2 on the DC, then we need to make room for some players.
Besides, it's not like we have a choice at this point. Jones doesn't appear that he'll even be able to step onto the field for any more than brief appearances. Kelsay's a rookie. McK hasn't shown much. That leaves Irons who hasn't shown much either.
Boy, what a crop to choose from...
:)
Patrick76777
08-20-2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
He'll get this season, but if he can't prove that he's at least a #2 on the DC, then we need to make room for some players.
I agree, 2 years is enough time for a 2nd rounder (he was a 2nd right). If he was a first rounder I'd give at least 3 years.
But if he shows any promise we should keep him around.
Patrick76777
08-20-2003, 08:36 AM
Actually I like McK.
I thought he's looked good when he's been in there. But at the same time I don't think he's any different then What we had last year in Chidi!
EricStratton
08-20-2003, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
Moulds didn't even have the opportunity as we had WRs then. He played behind WRs Reed, Early, and Tasker. You remember those guys, don't you? :huh:
A top pick not beating out an aging Quinn Early and a special teams ace but average WR in Steve Tasker sure looks like a bust in my eyes.
Cut Eric Moulds.
Novacane
08-20-2003, 08:41 AM
Bring back Chidi :boozer:
Yeah, I'd agree w/ that. CA and McK are about equal. But neither is anything beyond average. That's the issue here.
My big thing is that everyone praises TD for a few high level moves. He had a great first year draft, last year's was OK but only b/c of the no-brainers, MW and JR. After that it was only so-so. Thomas and Wire may be the only ones to be factors.
This year, w/ plenty of other options on the table, especially as we sit here what, $5M under the cap, we "re-draft" another similar DE. Why? Presumably b/c last year's didn't work out. We sign a washed up DT in Adams. If TD & Co. had done their homework, they would have seen that Adams really wasn't nearly as good as the media and fans made him out to be. All they had to do was watch 3 or 4 Raiders' games. IMO he got too much. $1.75M guaranteed I think, plus bonuses, which I cannot imagine for the life of me he's ever gonna see a dime of.
Meanwhile, we don't try to get some very affordable options at DT. If Kelsay doesn't pan out, man, it's gonna make TD look as if he should contract out the DE/DT acquisition duties. Meanwhile, our "hoping" doesn't make anyone better nor does it fill the holes we have/had.
TD's great moves:
Trading Price for a 1st rounder
Acquiring Spikes
Most would argue bringing Bledsoe here although I beg to differ and think we would have been better last year w/ someone else. But regardless of the enormous gap between perceptions and reality re: Drew, he did sell tons of tickets, and there's definitely something to be said for that. Although, that utility has now reached its peak. Now we need solid QB play, not more ticket sales. W/o solid play at QB, ticket sales will only decline henceforth.
TD's sketchy moves:
Signing all the injured and has-been vets whose best days are clearly past and who are well beyond their primesn along w/ old "Pittsburgh ties", all with very significant risks associated yet some who are supposed to be our primary solutions for the most part.
Adams seemingly, McGahee (a position where we currently have a pro-bowler), C. Johson, Huntley, Jones, Jett, McKenzie, Tucker. There are others, but some we signed b/c we had no cap space.
As well, he hasn't addressed certain areas at all:
OL depth. He's addressed it, but not w/ anyone who can fill in adequately. Meanwhile, Conaty, a proven vet is backing up our rival's C.
We let Carpenter go and sign Reese. Odd.
Buffatexas
08-20-2003, 09:16 AM
There is a flip side to this whole thing...at least TD is willing to roll the dice on FA's to try to better this team and keep them out of salary cap hell...this is today's nfl, where the Kurt Warners, Tommy Maddoxes, Doug Fluties, and all those other guys who come out of nowhere and give their teams a boost. We could be like Cincy and not spend a stinkin dime on FA's....so I say let Denney, Bannan, M. Jones, etc get out there and prove themselves in a REAL GAME situation before we as fans start questioning TD's motives. I thought Ahanotu played somewhat decent last year and where is he...obviously someone at OBD disagreed with me on him. I am sure if Wys is right about Denney then he will be gone as well.
BillsMan80
08-20-2003, 09:20 AM
That's it Wys, call Kelsay a bust before he's even played a regular season game. Real genius. In that case why don't we call McGahee a bust too. He hasn't played in a game yet and is injured. And you wonder why people question you time after time and wonder about your sanity.
cordog
08-20-2003, 09:52 AM
Wys,
Heres William Joseph's #s so far this preseason
0 tackles
0 sacks
using your philosophy he's a bust, lets move on
My big thing is that everyone praises TD for a few high level moves. He had a great first year draft, last year's was OK but only b/c of the no-brainers, MW and JR. After that it was only so-so. Thomas and Wire may be the only ones to be factors.
So getting 3 starters and Thomas who in a year or two might be a starter is an okay draft?? You have some high expectations here wys, because if you can get two starters and a guy or two to produce on the team is a damn good draft. And JR a no brainer ?? He was only a no brainer cuz he has produced. Ask the other 31 teams why they passed on him. It was a great pick by TD, not a no brainer
THATHURMANATOR
08-20-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
All I know is that Denney wasn't a good pic.
I hate your signature.
Originally posted by EricStratton
A top pick not beating out an aging Quinn Early and a special teams ace but average WR in Steve Tasker sure looks like a bust in my eyes.
Cut Eric Moulds.
Ahhhh, once again a superb display of Rhode Scholar reasoning skills and abilities here!
:D
There's a difference ES between not playing for "lack of opportunities" and "not playing b/c you suck!"
Moulds didn't get the opps. Why? B/c we didn't need him to. We were fine at WR.
Denney, we were actually looking for him to make an impact at an open position given that he was a trade-up high round draft pick!
Can you figure that out, or do you need guidance?
Originally posted by Buffatexas
There is a flip side to this whole thing...at least TD is willing to roll the dice on FA's to try to better this team and keep them out of salary cap hell...this is today's nfl, where the Kurt Warners, Tommy Maddoxes, Doug Fluties, and all those other guys who come out of nowhere and give their teams a boost. We could be like Cincy and not spend a stinkin dime on FA's....so I say let Denney, Bannan, M. Jones, etc get out there and prove themselves in a REAL GAME situation before we as fans start questioning TD's motives. I thought Ahanotu played somewhat decent last year and where is he...obviously someone at OBD disagreed with me on him. I am sure if Wys is right about Denney then he will be gone as well.
I agree to an extent.
But how long are we gonna run w/ Drew before trying to find those Warners or Madduxes?
As well, when you have grand canyon sized holes at a position like we've had at DE and DT, then it often makes sense to perhaps fill your biggest w/ good talent. TD did that w/ Spikes, but we had plenty of cap space left to add another DT, perhaps not on the magnitude of Spikes, but at least one who's started effectively w/o signing one who clearly was not playing well last year.
mchurchfie
08-20-2003, 10:27 AM
LMAO @ Wys's sig pic.:lol::rofl:
EricStratton
08-20-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
Moulds didn't get the opps. Why? B/c we didn't need him to. We were fine at WR.
Wrong.
If Eric was good enough as a rookie he sure as hell would have been on the field. The fact that a old slow QE was ahead of him shows as a rookie he wasn't good enough. It actuall took a couple season for him to adjust.
Warren Sapp had 17 tackles in 16 games as a rook, does that make a bust. Players need time to adjust to the NFL.
Maybe Denney will never make it but to call him a bust after 1 season and 1/2 a training camp is moronic.
Buffatexas
08-20-2003, 11:43 AM
Wys, to answer your question regarding how long we are going to run with Drew....Only TD or RW is going to make that call but I can tell you this, I would much rather have Drew on a bad day then have to live through the Dufek/Mathison/Ferragamo/Todd Collins/Rob Johnson era again. I don't want this to turn into another Drew debacle but really, What Drew brings to the table is his intangibles. He has leadership skills above and beyond at least 75 percent of the qbs in this league, If the Pats put Brady out there with out Bledsoe talking to him on the sidelines, he may have been Tom Cousineau for that matter. Bledsoe is a Leader can be mentioned in the same breath as Kelly, Marino, Montana and the list goes on.
You are correct about our DE/DT scenario as for now, but I have faith that Adams will come to play once it counts, like Bruce used to do...Maybe TD will find that "Diamond in the rough" from the cut down lists...stranger things have happened
ArcticWildMan
08-20-2003, 11:45 AM
:bf1: Buffatexas
The_Philster
08-20-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
Moulds didn't even have the opportunity as we had WRs then. He played behind WRs Reed, Early, and Tasker. You remember those guys, don't you? :huh:
He was behind Reed and Early but ahead of Tasker at WR.
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