ok ok now I know what you guys meant about Wys

[the dude]

When I first started perusing this board, I was a Wys fan - actually I'm still a Wys fan - hey, he's a realist I thought, he makes cogent, lucid arguments - I've even hyped him over on TBD. But now I know why he gets under everybody's skin ... he's a 1-trick pony, actually a 3-trick pony with his steady repetition of mantras that would make a yogi proud:

1. Bledsoe sucks so bad I guess I can't even remember the yahoos we had for 4 sucky years.
My take: look, the way Bledsoe started last year, how could we not get caught up in the hype? He stood back in the pocket , took a beating physically due to our ill-coached and youthful line, yet ALWAYS bounced up and still rifled passes 40 yards downfield with precision. He's a lot like Kelly, a brash ego that can carry a team for a while. We need to make sure he doesn't feel the need to do that all the time - then his arm becomes a scary weapon to keep the defense at bay. I know when he was a Pat, he was the 1 QB that scared me in the division. If we gave him time, he'd eat us up with pinpoint throws.

2. Jerry Gray's defense became a top 10 defense at the end of the year - who needs to upgrade the D?
My take: I partially agree with Wys here. The defense progressed the 2nd half of the year, almost in unison with the offense showing signs of regress. The one overriding FACT that he continually overlooks in all his discussion about statistics is the complete inability of that same defense to create turnovers or big plays. There were 3 causes for this. Putrid run-D in the center of the line, lack of a consistent pass rush, and a mediocre LB corps to cut off screens and short passing games. It looks like TD fixed the first 2 problems. Fat Sam's job is to duplicate what Fat Ted did. Occupy the middle - he'll do fine and now Edward and Bannon will be decent backups instead of overmatched starters. We all know how good Spikes will be but I don't think we'll be able to judge Posey's value till we see real schemes and gameplans - at least the coaches seem to rave about his skills. Our 1 glaring weakness is still the pass rush, however. TD is trying a quick cheap fix with Jones and McKenzie - early returns don't look great. this is where Lebeau's schemes and our LB talent should help somewhat. Unfortunately, we have a HUUUGE game the first week against the Pats and I'm not sure that we'll have gelled yet.

3. We look horrible in preseason - we'll probably suck.
My take: I do worry that we didn't match up well in the simple 1-on-1 schemes with the Titans, but they have experienced, veteran OL and DL ... ours' are relatively freshfaced except for Ruben, Fat Sam and Phat Pat. I have no doubt, barring injury, that we'll look a whole lot better when we meet them in the regular season than we did last week. Gameplanning, experience and confidence go a long way when you combine it with the talent we have. I claim that Ruel, our new OL coach will be the biggest positive in our offense since ... Bledsoe. You can already see better technique in run-blocking from the interior of the line. If you remember, most of Henry's yards last year came after he turned the corner. At least in the preseason, the interior guys seem to be learning effective ways to seal off their man. We have the obvious talent to be a good pass blocking team but don't yet have the experience. I know Wys screamed about Bledsoe taking too much time to throw last week - and he probably needs to get in the mindset to dump off passes from time to time - but if you compared his pocket to that of McNair and even the Titan backups- yikes! It wasn't close. Look, it's hard to look good when you're constantly facing a long field due to penalties. If we stay that undisciplined in the regular season, you could have a All-star team in there and not be very successful.

One thing I think people will be pleasantly surprised at this year is how our wideouts will make the cruscial block to spring Henry for a big gain. I remember at least half a dozen instances where I'd be watching Henry about to break free and Peerless vainly trying to shield his guy from an area. Reed and Shaw will finish those blocks.

I'm sorry Wys, I didn't mean for this to be a diatribe against you - I like your realism, but jeez, sometimes I think all you see is the cloud inside the silver lining. Anyway, your comments gave me a chance to introduce myself to the forum. This is a great place for some lively debate.:punchu:

[The_Philster]

:shakeno: You gotta double the size of that to make it a Wys-style post.


;)

[RedEyE]

Wys is our most controversial poster. :up:

[Ð]

http://www.jackinthebox.com/jacks_office/postcards/cards/card1.gif

Wys ordering at Jack in the Box...

"Of course I'd like to supersize my post"
"Unbelievable"
"You people are totally non-engaging"
"What game were you watching?"

[Mr. Miyagi]

Great post, dude! :up:

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Ð
http://www.jackinthebox.com/jacks_office/postcards/cards/card1.gif

Wys ordering at Jack in the Box...

"Of course I'd like to supersize my post"
"Unbelievable"
"You people are totally non-engaging"
"What game were you watching?"

:lol: :welcome back, Ð

[WG]

Originally posted by the dude
1. Bledsoe sucks so bad I guess I can't even remember the yahoos we had for 4 sucky years.
My take: look, the way Bledsoe started last year, how could we not get caught up in the hype? He stood back in the pocket , took a beating physically due to our ill-coached and youthful line, yet ALWAYS bounced up and still rifled passes 40 yards downfield with precision. He's a lot like Kelly, a brash ego that can carry a team for a while. We need to make sure he doesn't feel the need to do that all the time - then his arm becomes a scary weapon to keep the defense at bay. I know when he was a Pat, he was the 1 QB that scared me in the division. If we gave him time, he'd eat us up with pinpoint throws.

2. Jerry Gray's defense became a top 10 defense at the end of the year - who needs to upgrade the D?
My take: I partially agree with Wys here. The defense progressed the 2nd half of the year, almost in unison with the offense showing signs of regress. The one overriding FACT that he continually overlooks in all his discussion about statistics is the complete inability of that same defense to create turnovers or big plays. There were 3 causes for this. Putrid run-D in the center of the line, lack of a consistent pass rush, and a mediocre LB corps to cut off screens and short passing games. It looks like TD fixed the first 2 problems.

3. We look horrible in preseason - we'll probably suck.
My take: I do worry that we didn't match up well in the simple 1-on-1 schemes with the Titans, but they have experienced, veteran OL and DL ... ours' are relatively freshfaced except for Ruben, Fat Sam and Phat Pat. I have no doubt, barring injury, that we'll look a whole lot better when we meet them in the regular season than we did last week.

I'm sorry Wys, I didn't mean for this to be a diatribe against you - I like your realism, but jeez, sometimes I think all you see is the cloud inside the silver lining. Anyway, your comments gave me a chance to introduce myself to the forum. This is a great place for some lively debate.:punchu:

Alright dude,

A worthy polemicist, ....:evil:....,

Well taken BTW!!!!

:handsrubbing:

:D

First of all, to the first point above, what happened the last 4 years has no bearing at all on this or last year or next year or 2011. As to making sure he doesn't have to throw 40-yards downfield all the time, you are incorrect! If we could, that's exactly what we'd want to do. The problem is that that option is taken away as soon as you get into the red zone or even w/in the 30. That's the problem, not Drew's "deep throws." Drew would be much better suited for the field up in the CFL w/ 25m EZs.

As to scaring me when he was on the Pats, my mantra during that time was that "the Pats would never win a SB w/ him at the helm!" NEVER! Now, why would, first of all that scare me? Second of all, why would I feel differently just b/c he's playing here now?

As to the D last year, my point is "who cares how many takeaways we had if points were held to a minimum?" If we can hold a team to only 9, 10, 13, or 16 points w/ no or few TAs, then who cares? Is it the goal of the D to amass TAs or keep points to a minimum?

I agree that it's unusual for a team to hold teams down w/o TAs and sacks, but hey, we did it, so who cares! They contributed.

Secondly, and here's the "part 2" to that issue. The premise of that statement by you is that TAs are critical for the D and bad for the opposing O, right? Well, if that's the case, then how come Drew didn't take much heat for his 18 GAs in 7 losses, usually the only GAs of ours for the entire game? That's where I get a little confused. People, Bills fans, completely downplay those while saying what you just said! Puzzling, eh!

As to TD "fixing those first two problems," the pass-rush and run-D, I do not agree. Sam isn't anything except a stand-up immobile pilon! We have no pass rush, so I'm a little at a loss as to why you think we do. B/c the same sacks that you inherently say were problematic, we haven't gotten in PS.

Clements has had the only two INTs by the first unit and we've had only one sack in two games by guess who, Schobel and Williams splitting it! On Redmon v. the Raven OL to boot! So big deal! So where's all this evidence that "we've fixed the problem?" I don't see it. If it's game films of Adams in '99, I don't think that counts. Same-old, same-old from last year.

Lastly, I simply don't know what your following statement:

"I have no doubt, barring injury, that we'll look a whole lot better when we meet them in the regular season than we did last week."

...is based on! B/c as I see it, we haven't addressed those issues that we had last year, at least not "beyond the paper" and certainly not evident on the field so far in the least. Thus, I am concerned.

As to a silver lining, I'm always trying to find one. But we all speak as if we were truly the 11th ranked O that everyone thinks we were when I don't really think we were that good last year.

Our O put up an average of only 17.8 PPG over our last ten games. If we had played that way all year, then we'd have finished the season ranked 26th, ahead of only Chicago, Cincy, Arizona, Carolina, Dallas, and Houston!

That isn't good. Considering that it was a trend that occurred not only over the majority fo the season, but also over the last portion of our games, I think it more accurately represents the notion that it was the rule last year, not the exception. We cannot, nor will not, benefit this year from teams being perplexed as to how we're gonna come outta the gates! Nor do we have the luxury again of opening up the season against a bunch of the league's stiffs.

The bottom line for me is that I am finding it very difficult to remain nearly as enthusiastic as I've been over the past month or two. I thought Sam's contract would provide him w/ the necessary "kick in the ass" that he needed. Apparently I was wrong.

I thought that of many options, Denney from last year, Kelsay from this year touted as a first rounder stolen, Jones, Irons, newcomer McKenzie, that we'd have hit on one of those. Yet we haven't.

I thought that perhaps GW & Co. knew what they were talking about by hyping up Pucillo, Sobieski, and Tucker as interior line depth, but I see that that could not have been further from the truth based on the way those guys played and looked totally confused during the games!

As I see it, the only real difference that we have heading into the season this year is Spikes and Posey. For a team that averaged less than 20 PPG for most of the latter part of last season and given that the D held opponents to under 20 PPG average in those same games, I don't think the issue was D. It was O.

I feel let down by the current management and coaching!

I didn't think that we should rely on injured players like Jones. I felt McKenzie was not more than average, players of which we have plenty of. I didn't think that Kelsay was a wise use of our 2nd rounder not to mention our first pick. BUT, I said to myself, maybe TD knows what he's doing.

We'll see, but other than a few high-profile moves, I don't think the rest have done much for us!

;)

Thanks for the great post and WELCOME to the BZ boards!!!

[The_Philster]

:eek: :dizzy:

[mackey789]

I agree with everything "the dude" said. WYS, you are out numbered. I hope Bledsoe leads us to the superbowl on his shoulders just so you will shush

[WG]

Hey, me too!

But something tells me that sh&% performances against teams like K.C., S.D., Jets, N.E., G.B., mean more in achieving that than do stellar performances against Minnesota and Chicago!

Just a hunch!

And BTW, I guess since I'm outnumbered, truth falls by the wayside, eh...

;)

Hitler had such a following!

[Tatonka]

welcome dude.. great post..

[Ð]

OMG, Wys, would you just listen to yourself.

Bringing Hitler analogies into a football message board tells us all you've completely lost it.

[bernielivsey_1]

We can evolve if we run the ball 60/40. Our O-line is good enough to handle it. We cant pass like last year. Losing Price, Larry, & Jay will make sure of that. So Drews mistakes will become less of a factor. Even if Gilbride trys to he will see it wont work (I hope).
The D will be OK if we use DICKS blitzing plays. Our lack of pass rush can be helped with blitz's. The DB's will be better than last year. No Watson.
Wys had a thing with Drew at summer camp when they were kids. . Ya know experementing being curious. He hasnt gotten over him getting married yet:whip:

[MDFINFAN]

Can I ask a question, here, Wys, you're not allowed to answer this one. I know your thoughts.. If everyone earnestly respond, How do you guys really feel about where your team is Right Now?
Not what you think they will do, but based on the 2 ps games, what do you really think of them?

[BillsMan80]

What do I think? I honestly have no worries. This is preseason. I am honestly not worried about execution and stuff like that. Look at a lot of other sports. In golf, most of the time you don't hit the ball like you do on the range before a round. In horse racing, when our horse works out, it doesn't have to be great. It's just to keep him in shape. I think that we'll be a 10-win team honestly. I'll start worrying when the Pats defense is blowing past our OL, when Brady is working that dink-and-dunk offense to perfection, and when guys like Fat Sam are getting blown off the ball on September 7th.

[bernielivsey_1]

:date: Honestly pre season aside. We are going to be a better team than last year. But I also think the Pats will be better this year if they figure out how to run the ball. 3 good players added on D will help their team a lot . Miami is the same. Knight, Seau are OK but the fins already had a good D. And the Jets moved to D.C. There done. We just need to bang it out and see.

[LABillsFan]

Even before the workouts began in spring, I said this would be an 8-8 to a 9-7 team based on schedual and how the Bills stack up against the other teams in the AFCE. I believe it would be a sucessful season. The O line is still young and while the depth is strengthening it will be 1-2 more years of playing together and upgrading the team before they will contend in the SB.

[the dude]

Wys



Originally posted by Wys Guy


First of all, to the first point above, what happened the last 4 years has no bearing at all on this or last year or next year or 2011. As to making sure he doesn't have to throw 40-yards downfield all the time, you are incorrect! If we could, that's exactly what we'd want to do. The problem is that that option is taken away as soon as you get into the red zone or even w/in the 30. That's the problem, not Drew's "deep throws." Drew would be much better suited for the field up in the CFL w/ 25m EZs.


The reason I respect your arguments is you always provide a bevy of facts to support your arguments. Here's a stat I found quite telling to describe this whole idea of defenses helping their offenses.

http://www.twominutewarning.com/rz.htm

I agree Bledsoe turned sour in the 2nd half. However, with the exception of the NE games (Bellichek flat out outcoached Williams and Gilbride) and the GB weather fiasco (score had little to do with the quality of the defenses), I believe Gilbride made a concerted effort to pull the reins in on Bledsoe. And he did just enough to win against the bad teams. Anyway here's the key stat about red zone efficiency. Not only was the Bills D the worst at stopping offenses in the red zone (the Offense was about average by the way) but they created ZERO turnovers. Again, I think all the stats from your earlier well-reasoned analysis missed this key point. Just a few key big plays could have helped the offense. I read an earlier stat in a D&C article that showed the average scoring drive length for the Bills was among the 3 longest in the league. Turnovers that could shorten the field (aka Miami games) can sure swing the momentum of games. Although I agree Drew does better with more open field in front of him, the red zone stats indicate the O was no worse than average.

Also with regard to INTs, Bledsoe's 15 were only worse than 11 teams - that's 19 teams with as many or more. Now if you include Travis' fumbles, then yes- the O was in the bottom half of the league - but again 13 teams were worse - and most of those better were not nearly as proficient. Whereas, defensively no team, not Houston, not Cincy provided less help to their offense.

Unlike others, I readily admit Drew's game fell off significantly in the latter part of the year - too many turnovers, he has to be smarter. I still think better coaching, specifically utilizing Bledsoe's long ball as a changeup as opposed to the default scenario and utilizing wideouts that help block for the running game, should help the offense. Gilbride, contrary to poular opinion, did ride Jerome Bettis when he was the Steelers OC. If he can use that same philosophy with Travis, he can force teams to come out of Cover-2's and that's where Bledsoe can shine. He has the tools, he's smarter than he was when Parcells helped him reach a Super Bowl - he just needs good coaching.



Originally posted by Wys Guy


As to the D last year, my point is "who cares how many takeaways we had if points were held to a minimum?" If we can hold a team to only 9, 10, 13, or 16 points w/ no or few TAs, then who cares? Is it the goal of the D to amass TAs or keep points to a minimum?

I agree that it's unusual for a team to hold teams down w/o TAs and sacks, but hey, we did it, so who cares! They contributed.

Secondly, and here's the "part 2" to that issue. The premise of that statement by you is that TAs are critical for the D and bad for the opposing O, right? Well, if that's the case, then how come Drew didn't take much heat for his 18 GAs in 7 losses, usually the only GAs of ours for the entire game? That's where I get a little confused. People, Bills fans, completely downplay those while saying what you just said! Puzzling, eh!




sorry - see above stat pages, they correspond directly to the efficiency of the offense.


Originally posted by Wys Guy

As to TD "fixing those first two problems," the pass-rush and run-D, I do not agree. Sam isn't anything except a stand-up immobile pilon! We have no pass rush, so I'm a little at a loss as to why you think we do. B/c the same sacks that you inherently say were problematic, we haven't gotten in PS.


I mis-stated that ... I meant to say TD solved the LB weakness and the "Meat in the middle" issue. Pass rush remains THE weak link for this team. Maybe Lebeau's schemes can soften this deficiency - you're right, I'm just hoping here.



Originally posted by Wys Guy

"I have no doubt, barring injury, that we'll look a whole lot better when we meet them in the regular season than we did last week."

...is based on! B/c as I see it, we haven't addressed those issues that we had last year, at least not "beyond the paper" and certainly not evident on the field so far in the least. Thus, I am concerned.


Fair enough, perhaps that's the fan in me ... but I've seen reports quoting AFC F/O personnel calling our OL one of the most talented in the league, inexperienced, but talented.


Originally posted by Wys Guy

As to a silver lining, I'm always trying to find one. But we all speak as if we were truly the 11th ranked O that everyone thinks we were when I don't really think we were that good last year.



Again, I like the way you present your points. I still think we should win 10 games this year with an improved defense, a more efficient offense and decent special teams (when's the last time a Bills fan could say that?). Again that's IF we beat NE in the opener, else all bets are off.:huddle:

[northernbillfan]

:bf1: the dude!

Well said man. Welcome to the Zone, It's nice to have someone in here who can go head to head with Wys, AND kick his ass like you just did, not once but twice. Nicely handled.

[cordog]

Hey, i like this guy

[WG]

Originally posted by Ð
OMG, Wys, would you just listen to yourself.

Bringing Hitler analogies into a football message board tells us all you've completely lost it.

See, there's a thing D, something that liberals can't seem to be able to grasp BTW, that is called being able to see the point instead of merely looking at the face of something.

Here's a clue:

Hitler deceived an entire nation into believing what was false!

That is what you should take away from that. Nothing more, nothing less!

I'm very sorry you were unable to grasp that important part of that.

[WG]

Originally posted by BillsMan80
What do I think? I honestly have no worries. This is preseason. I am honestly not worried about execution and stuff like that. Look at a lot of other sports. In golf, most of the time you don't hit the ball like you do on the range before a round. In horse racing, when our horse works out, it doesn't have to be great. It's just to keep him in shape. I think that we'll be a 10-win team honestly. I'll start worrying when the Pats defense is blowing past our OL, when Brady is working that dink-and-dunk offense to perfection, and when guys like Fat Sam are getting blown off the ball on September 7th.

Q for ya 80,

Since we didn't execute offensively throughout the last 10 games, w/ only one exception, perhaps two, and given that "lack of execution by the O" hasn't been existent, to be polite, this year in PS, why are you not worried? Especially since we're supposedly changing our offense to a system whereby Drew doesn't play as well as he even did last year where we managed only 17.8 PPG over our last 10!

I'm curious as to why there isn't more concern. Not just you, but by everyone.

[WG]

Originally posted by MDFINFAN
Can I ask a question, here, Wys, you're not allowed to answer this one. I know your thoughts.. If everyone earnestly respond, How do you guys really feel about where your team is Right Now?
Not what you think they will do, but based on the 2 ps games, what do you really think of them?

Post a poll question

[WG]

Originally posted by bernielivsey_1
:date: Honestly pre season aside. We are going to be a better team than last year.

Again, what's the basis for that statement?

[WG]

dude,

I'll get back to ya, I gotta run out for a lunch appt....

[Ð]

Sorry Wys, when you allude that posters who don't agree with you are akin to followers of Hitler, it's very telling of your grasp on reality.

And BTW, you use the "liberal" label like it's a bad thing.
How does a football discussion digress into partisanship ?

Oh, I forgot who I'm dealing with :D

[WG]

Originally posted by Ð
Sorry Wys, when you allude that posters who don't agree with you are akin to followers of Hitler, it's very telling of your grasp on reality.

And BTW, you use the "liberal" label like it's a bad thing.
How does a football discussion digress into partisanship ?

Oh, I forgot who I'm dealing with :D

D,

Learn to read and comprehend! I said nothing of the sort.

The point was, since you seem to be the only one who missed it, is that if a single person can fool so many people due to perceptions vice reality and truth, then certainly the task can be repeated. History bears out that is has millions of times over.

Can we cut the 6th grade nonsense please...

:rolleyes:

:deadhorse:

[Ð]

Oh the irony of Wys using the kick the dead horse smilie ;)

It's very clear what your allusion was...
To allude that those who disagree with you are akin to followers of Hitler is pretty GD desparate.

You're just backtracking now.

[StillLurkin]

:movie:


This is getting good!

[LtBillsFan66]

I want to know how one thinks so many are so wrong when they are almost all alone in their thinking.

[Buckets]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


Alright dude,

A worthy polemicist, ....:evil:....,

Well taken BTW!!!!

:handsrubbing:

:D

First of all, to the first point above, what happened the last 4 years has no bearing at all on this or last year or next year or 2011. As to making sure he doesn't have to throw 40-yards downfield all the time, you are incorrect! If we could, that's exactly what we'd want to do. The problem is that that option is taken away as soon as you get into the red zone or even w/in the 30. That's the problem, not Drew's "deep throws." Drew would be much better suited for the field up in the CFL w/ 25m EZs.

As to scaring me when he was on the Pats, my mantra during that time was that "the Pats would never win a SB w/ him at the helm!" NEVER! Now, why would, first of all that scare me? Second of all, why would I feel differently just b/c he's playing here now?

As to the D last year, my point is "who cares how many takeaways we had if points were held to a minimum?" If we can hold a team to only 9, 10, 13, or 16 points w/ no or few TAs, then who cares? Is it the goal of the D to amass TAs or keep points to a minimum?

I agree that it's unusual for a team to hold teams down w/o TAs and sacks, but hey, we did it, so who cares! They contributed.

Secondly, and here's the "part 2" to that issue. The premise of that statement by you is that TAs are critical for the D and bad for the opposing O, right? Well, if that's the case, then how come Drew didn't take much heat for his 18 GAs in 7 losses, usually the only GAs of ours for the entire game? That's where I get a little confused. People, Bills fans, completely downplay those while saying what you just said! Puzzling, eh!

As to TD "fixing those first two problems," the pass-rush and run-D, I do not agree. Sam isn't anything except a stand-up immobile pilon! We have no pass rush, so I'm a little at a loss as to why you think we do. B/c the same sacks that you inherently say were problematic, we haven't gotten in PS.

Clements has had the only two INTs by the first unit and we've had only one sack in two games by guess who, Schobel and Williams splitting it! On Redmon v. the Raven OL to boot! So big deal! So where's all this evidence that "we've fixed the problem?" I don't see it. If it's game films of Adams in '99, I don't think that counts. Same-old, same-old from last year.

Lastly, I simply don't know what your following statement:

"I have no doubt, barring injury, that we'll look a whole lot better when we meet them in the regular season than we did last week."

...is based on! B/c as I see it, we haven't addressed those issues that we had last year, at least not "beyond the paper" and certainly not evident on the field so far in the least. Thus, I am concerned.

As to a silver lining, I'm always trying to find one. But we all speak as if we were truly the 11th ranked O that everyone thinks we were when I don't really think we were that good last year.

Our O put up an average of only 17.8 PPG over our last ten games. If we had played that way all year, then we'd have finished the season ranked 26th, ahead of only Chicago, Cincy, Arizona, Carolina, Dallas, and Houston!

That isn't good. Considering that it was a trend that occurred not only over the majority fo the season, but also over the last portion of our games, I think it more accurately represents the notion that it was the rule last year, not the exception. We cannot, nor will not, benefit this year from teams being perplexed as to how we're gonna come outta the gates! Nor do we have the luxury again of opening up the season against a bunch of the league's stiffs.

The bottom line for me is that I am finding it very difficult to remain nearly as enthusiastic as I've been over the past month or two. I thought Sam's contract would provide him w/ the necessary "kick in the ass" that he needed. Apparently I was wrong.

I thought that of many options, Denney from last year, Kelsay from this year touted as a first rounder stolen, Jones, Irons, newcomer McKenzie, that we'd have hit on one of those. Yet we haven't.

I thought that perhaps GW & Co. knew what they were talking about by hyping up Pucillo, Sobieski, and Tucker as interior line depth, but I see that that could not have been further from the truth based on the way those guys played and looked totally confused during the games!

As I see it, the only real difference that we have heading into the season this year is Spikes and Posey. For a team that averaged less than 20 PPG for most of the latter part of last season and given that the D held opponents to under 20 PPG average in those same games, I don't think the issue was D. It was O.

I feel let down by the current management and coaching!

I didn't think that we should rely on injured players like Jones. I felt McKenzie was not more than average, players of which we have plenty of. I didn't think that Kelsay was a wise use of our 2nd rounder not to mention our first pick. BUT, I said to myself, maybe TD knows what he's doing.

We'll see, but other than a few high-profile moves, I don't think the rest have done much for us!

;)

Thanks for the great post and WELCOME to the BZ boards!!!

Way to go WYS!
This post has to be a personal record or at least near the top.

:lolcry:

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Buckets
Way to go WYS!
This post has to be a personal record or at least near the top.

:lolcry:


What? A record for his shortest post? :D

[WG]

Originally posted by the dude
Wys


The reason I respect your arguments is you always provide a bevy of facts to support your arguments. Here's a stat I found quite telling to describe this whole idea of defenses helping their offenses.

http://www.twominutewarning.com/rz.htm

I agree Bledsoe turned sour in the 2nd half. However, with the exception of the NE games (Bellichek flat out outcoached Williams and Gilbride) and the GB weather fiasco (score had little to do with the quality of the defenses), I believe Gilbride made a concerted effort to pull the reins in on Bledsoe. And he did just enough to win against the bad teams. Anyway here's the key stat about red zone efficiency. Not only was the Bills D the worst at stopping offenses in the red zone (the Offense was about average by the way) but they created ZERO turnovers. Again, I think all the stats from your earlier well-reasoned analysis missed this key point. Just a few key big plays could have helped the offense. I read an earlier stat in a D&C article that showed the average scoring drive length for the Bills was among the 3 longest in the league. Turnovers that could shorten the field (aka Miami games) can sure swing the momentum of games. Although I agree Drew does better with more open field in front of him, the red zone stats indicate the O was no worse than average.

Also with regard to INTs, Bledsoe's 15 were only worse than 11 teams - that's 19 teams with as many or more. Now if you include Travis' fumbles, then yes- the O was in the bottom half of the league - but again 13 teams were worse - and most of those better were not nearly as proficient. Whereas, defensively no team, not Houston, not Cincy provided less help to their offense.

Unlike others, I readily admit Drew's game fell off significantly in the latter part of the year - too many turnovers, he has to be smarter. I still think better coaching, specifically utilizing Bledsoe's long ball as a changeup as opposed to the default scenario and utilizing wideouts that help block for the running game, should help the offense. Gilbride, contrary to poular opinion, did ride Jerome Bettis when he was the Steelers OC. If he can use that same philosophy with Travis, he can force teams to come out of Cover-2's and that's where Bledsoe can shine. He has the tools, he's smarter than he was when Parcells helped him reach a Super Bowl - he just needs good coaching.





sorry - see above stat pages, they correspond directly to the efficiency of the offense.



I mis-stated that ... I meant to say TD solved the LB weakness and the "Meat in the middle" issue. Pass rush remains THE weak link for this team. Maybe Lebeau's schemes can soften this deficiency - you're right, I'm just hoping here.




Fair enough, perhaps that's the fan in me ... but I've seen reports quoting AFC F/O personnel calling our OL one of the most talented in the league, inexperienced, but talented.




Again, I like the way you present your points. I still think we should win 10 games this year with an improved defense, a more efficient offense and decent special teams (when's the last time a Bills fan could say that?). Again that's IF we beat NE in the opener, else all bets are off.:huddle:

dude,

I highly appreciate your taking the time to run through all this stuff and present some facts. It's a refreshing change of pace!!!

Now, ...:D....

Nice site BTW! Bookmarked!!!

OK, first of all, it's quite clear to me why we see things differently. On your last several points we fully agree. I think our starting OL is solid but that we are only one interior line injury away from disaster. Henry's da man! Moulds, Price, promising young talent looks promising.

On D, LBing is solid at minimum, perhaps better. Secondary is as solid as we could hope for realistically. Big issues, DL, still, and Drew's personal play.

OK, now on to why we disagree. Here's why:

You seem to be lumping the entire season into one giant category when in fact it really more resembled two separate seasons.

In the first 6 games, the team put up 194 points or 32.3 PPG. We simultaneously allowed, which most will attribute solely to defense but which I will assign primarily to STs, 214 points or 35.7 PPG.

Over the last 10 games, the same exact team, put up 178 offensive points, or only 17.8 PPG, and allowed 193 points, or 19.3 PPG.

OK, now let's use the entire season's NFL stats as the standard then.

Over the first 6 games:

O scoring rank: 1st
D scoring rank: 32nd

Over the last 10 games:

O scoring rank: 26th
D scoring rank: 7th

TDs/FGs in the first 6 games:

22 TDs/10 FGs or 3.7 TDs p/g and 1.7 FGs p/g

TDs/FGs in the last 10 games:

19 TDs/16 FGs or 1.9 TDs p/g and 1.6 FGs p/g

Deltas:

O drop from over 'first 6' vice 'last 10': - 25
D climb from over 'first 6' vice 'last 10': + 25
Delta points scored 'first 6' vice 'last 10': - 14.5
Delta points allowed 'first 6' vice 'last 10': - 16.4
Delta TDs/game 'first 6' vice 'last 10': - 1.8 TDs/game
Delta FGs/game 'first 6' vice 'last 10': - 0.1 FGs/game

Now, I don't suppose you'd care to wager me any amount of money, that if I go and recalculate those same stats from that page that we'd be near the bottom of the league, would ya?

B/c I'm not gonna waste the time or energy unless I'm gettin' paid for it. ;)

Either way, I don't think that what happened over the last 10 games are really enough to place us in the "best of anything offensively" categories.

Needless to say however, that since we had a new team, w/ new coaching, w/ new players, and Drew new to the team, it would make perfect sense that the games up front, whether good or bad, were not nearly as reflective as those towards the end of the season once the team had reached a "steady state" of performance.

Secondly, in the Minnesota game for example, of the 39 regulation points, do not overlook the fact that 14 of them were scored by the D and STs. only 25 by the O. Not exactly marvelous against a team w/ no D. Minnesota gave up 27.6 on average.

As to your comments on the D, I would only say that the D's first and foremost responsibility, which seems to have been lost through all of this TO discussion, is to keep points off the boards, not to seek to bolster defensive stats.

They did that in many a game.

In the first Jet game, you can only hold the D accountable for 13 of the Jets 37 points. Drew is accountable for 7 and the STs for 14.

In many other games the D held opponents' scores down:

K.C., the league's leading O at one point, to 17
Pats to only 13 that you can blame them on in game 2.
Cincy, 9
G.B. 10
Miami 10
S.D. 13
Detroit 17
Miami 21, OK but not great
Denver 21

I don't think that's too bad.

Now as to Bledsoe's TOs, again, we will differ on this likely b/c you are looking at them from a high level standpoint.

Consider this, that 18 of Drew's 19 TOs came in 7 losses of our 8 losses.

In the first Jet game, his INT set the Jets up for their first TD inside our 20 and handed them 7. The other created a huge change in FP.

In the Raider game, he tossed two straight, three total, at the most critical moment of the game when the game was still very much winable. Led to 14 Raider points, 7 directly, 7 indirectly.

In the N.E. game he tossed 5 INTs resulting in 10 Pat points and costing us 7 of our own.

In the K.C. game his sole INT cost us the game.

In the 2nd Jets game, he set the Jets up at midfield after stalling two of our own drives. Both resulted in Jet TDs.

In the G.B. game he had 4 TOs resulting in 14 Pack points and costing us 7 at the goal line.

In 4 of those 7 games, the 8 TOs were the only ones the team had.

In 7 of those lost games, the team had 22 TOs, Drew had 18 of them!

So, I think it's important to look at how Drew played down the stretch and vs. the types of teams that litter our schedule this year. Since the O apparently hinges on his play, since we won 8 games and only lost 8, mostly (7 games that is), on the merits of his TOs largely, I think it's very important how well he plays this year.

As to the D, if we pick up where we left off over the last 10 games, then we'll be fine.

You also made comments about Drew "turning sour" in the second half. Well, again, being honest here, that's not exactly true. He didn't play particularly well over the last 10 games, but he also didn't play particularly well in several of the other 6 too.

He was only nominal in the first Jets game. Good D and Henry's running kept us in that. Drew's INT coupled w/ two STs (Jets) TDs cost us that game. But to say Drew played well is to take liberties.

In the Vikings game, we only put up 25 offensive points thru regulation! Drew only tossed 2 TDs on 415 yards. Good, but again, not great. If the D and STs hadn't each scored a TD in regulation, then we'd have lost in regulation.

In the Raider game, he contributed 2 TDs but tossed 3 INTs, all key and losing the game for us.

So of those "first 6", Drew played well in 4 of those games, I hope we can agree. Minnesota, Chicago, Houston, and Denver.

So really, once we sort out the dross, we have a QB who pitched 11 TDs and 0 INTs in 4 games vs. how shall we say, "not so stellar" opponents, and in the remaining 12 games, pitched 13 TDs to 14 INTs. I'd say that's very average.

Notwithstanding, let's consider what happened over the last 10, which reflects more how we're playing now. Also, which is more than the "last half", more accurately the "last 2/3." And that is what IMO we should be looking at.

Again, if you want me to recalculate those 3rd-down-stats reflecting what happened over the last ten games, I'll gladly do it as long as we have a wager of sorts. But it doesn't take a genious to see that they'd be really bad.

When you try and match all this up w/ these media notions that we were one of the best offenses in the league, you have to find yourself asking "why?". Then when you look at it a bit more closely, you begin to get discouraged if you are a Bills fan. You begin to see that the early season success had more to do w/ circumstances than w/ great play. Great play yes, but only against primarily bad teams. Minnesota and Chicago, the 25th and 30th ranked Ds in the league, v. Houston, a first year startup in their 6th game, and then v. Denver which was good. But one game does not a season make.

Neither should 4 to 6 games a season make, whether statistically or perceptionally!

Cordially!

BTW, I've gotta run for a while...

Work you know, it gets in the way at times...! :D

[Buckets]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


Hitler deceived an entire nation into believing what was false!



Does this sound like anyone we know?

:huh:

[Patrick76777]

You gotta be kidding me with that post wys. I can't read that. My eyes will glaze over.

[EricStratton]

Originally posted by Patrick76777
You gotta be kidding me with that post wys. I can't read that. My eyes will glaze over.


I'll sum it up.

I'm right/you're wrong.

[Patrick76777]

Originally posted by EricStratton



I'll sum it up.

I'm right/you're wrong.


Ok, I see!

[bernielivsey_1]

I feel it in my gut Wys.

[WG]

Originally posted by Patrick76777
You gotta be kidding me with that post wys. I can't read that. My eyes will glaze over.

Don't kid yourself 76!

They were glazed over years ago...

:D

[Patrick76777]

It was all that drug use in the 60's

[WG]

Was it that long ago...

You sure it wasn't a bit more recent!

:D

[IHateTheDullphins]

:puke:

[WG]

Yet you're right back here loppin' up the same old vomit, time after time, eh...

;)

[IHateTheDullphins]

If you're refering to your posts as vomit, it's more like swimming, not loppin', time after time oh mighty wizard master of knowledge. :bigwave:

[RedEyE]

Ð isn't a liberal, he's a Canadian. :shakeno:





:snicker2:

[IHateTheDullphins]

Originally posted by RedEyE
Ð isn't a liberal, he's a Canadian. :shakeno:

so......it does get worse...





:snicker2:

[RedEyE]

Very clever. Never seen that done before. :rolleyes:

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


Again, what's the basis for that statement?

Could it be your sig? :const:

"GO BILLS!!!

Bills 2003 Super Bowl Bound!! "

[WG]

dude,

COME BACK!!!

PLEASE!!!

I can only take so much more of this!

I love you dude!!! Please don't go away....

:D

[the dude]

Wys

Hey I liked your article about the defense on the Zone front page that voiced - in hard facts - some of the same concerns I had with the offense at the end of last year.

With regard to your overall assessment of our offense and defense, I agree with you - but methinks you found a scapegoat in Bledsoe for all the team's ills.

I'm not sure if you read TMQ, Gregg Easterbrook's column on ESPN's page 2 ... usually a funny and incisive page-turner. And I believe he's also a Bills fan - who also happens to hate our unis. Well, he must have looked at your summary of O and D cause this is what he had to say about the 2002 Bills.


Buffalo's defense, underachieving since Smith was tossed out like the wrapper on a Snapple, came together in the second half last season. In the first half, the defense was 30th-ranked; by the end of the season, the defense had risen to 15th-ranked, which means it was one of the league's top units in the 2002 second half. Important free agents have been added, while no one was lost. This augurs well.

Yet offense, No. 1 in the first half of the 2002 season, finished 11th, which means it went out stumbling. During last year's first eight games, Drew Bledsoe threw 16 touchdown passes and only five interceptions, as the team averaged 30 points; during the second eight games, Bledsoe declined to eight touchdown passes vs. 10 interceptions, as the team averaged 17 points. Pundits (including TMQ) blamed this on pass-wacky play calling, but predictability was as much an issue.

Last year Bledsoe and his receivers started off hot by endlessly working the same few routes - intermediate outs and deep fades. By midseason, defenses were stacking against these routes, which meant other areas of the field had to be open. But Bills offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride, archbishop in the Church of Pass-Wacky, never adjusted. Endlessly in the second half of the season, Buffalo receivers ran deep fades and intermediate outs: no crossing patterns, posts or tight-end routes for variation. When asked late last season why his offense was bogging down, Gilbride would testily snap that his plays were No. 1 in yardage earlier in the season and he wasn't about to change them now. That is a formula for wheeze-out.


I lived in Houston during the Buddy Ryan/Gilbride era ... he used Warren Moon and the spread offense to near perfection, but he refused to adjust to game situations - I seem to recall some kind of comeback game in the early 90s:evil: I have to admit, a large part of my optimism for the current season is hoping that the ultra-conservative Les Steckel (former OC of Tampa) will offset the hyper-gambling mentality of KG. I hope, like Bledsoe says, we remain a big play offense. We just can't look for big plays all the time like we did last year. Without Peerless, we HAVE to change our MO but I still see us using Bledsoe's arm strength at least a dozen times a game.

What surprised me last year is that KG didn't adjust like he seemed to with the Steelers and Kordell/Bettis - at that time, he went to the team's strength and ran the ball - a lot, but he got Stewart into the Pro Bowl too. I contend 2 things about our offense last year: Gilbride lost faith in Henry's ability to hang onto the football, and he was too stubborn to make adjustments in the passing game. I do think Henry will take better care of the ball this year - they worked hard on it in the offseason, yada yada yada. But whether the coaching staff will make adjustments as well as Wade and his staff used to, that is the key question on offense. Not Bledsoe or his abilities.

As far as the D, yes they did improve - I grant you that. But they were, in no way a top 10 defense at the end of the year. Instead, they were a below- average defense with some gaping holes that Gray did well at covering up - again, a point of agreement between us. Now that the team has playmakers, we'll see if they can become a great defense with only adequate DEs. Just to emphasize the difference, look at the Miami games - Bledsoe didn't play great, the defense played well but the key is they came up with TURNOVERS. If you can credit the defense and blame special teams and offense for points, you have to allow that the lack of turnovers from our D (the absolute WORST in the league in that category - I don't care what half of the season) led to the need for longer drives and subsequently more potential turnovers from a stilted O. I don't care how you spin points allowed in that GB weather fiasco or against a putrid Cincy team or a slumping Chargers O. The D played 1 great game - against the Chiefs - and even there, when it came down to crunch time, they reverted back to early season rituals against the run.

So, in summary :drool: , I agree the offense slumped, but the defense only improved to a solid below-average level while the offensive playcalling slipped to atrocious. While Ruel will definitely help our young OL, the key to success definitely lies with Gilbride.

I don't have your limitless patience Wys ... we'll have to resume discussion on another topic since my ADD is kicking in and I'm outa Ritalin :D

[northernbillfan]

Originally posted by the dude
I hope, like Bledsoe says, we remain a big play offense. We just can't look for big plays all the time like we did last year. Without Peerless, we HAVE to change our MO but I still see us using Bledsoe's arm strength at least a dozen times a game.

The pass protection is suspect here. If that doesn't gel for us, it may all be in vain. That is our biggest weakness.


I agree the offense slumped, but the defense only improved to a solid below-average level while the offensive playcalling slipped to atrocious. While Ruel will definitely help our young OL, the key to success definitely lies with Gilbride.

15th ranked D over all hardley puts them at a "solid below average". I see that as being pretty much average, but on the way uo as you mentioned earlier. And yes Gilbrides head should roll if he can't get the job done.


Wys ... we'll have to resume discussion on another topic since my ADD is kicking in and I'm outa Ritalin

"When i can't stop fiddlin' I just take my Ritalin.
I'm poppin' and sailin' man (toot toot)" :bart:

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by northernbillfan
The pass protection is suspect here. If that doesn't gel for us, it may all be in vain. That is our biggest weakness.

They've played together for a season in those spots. There's no excuse why the OL can't be a strength of this team.

[the dude]

NBF - you're right the pass pro does need to get better - part of the problem I address to slow-developing (re: BIG) pass plays, part to bad coaching last year, part to Bledsoe's propensity to hang on till the last second and lastly (in no small part) the line's inexperience.

WRT defense, ok - stas are fine, Gray did a decent job to make them competeive. But the worst in the league at turnovers and sacks puts them below average in my book.

Philster, I agree - this OL just needs a while to gel. That same Titan OL that I watched for years in the mid nineties - Brad Hopkins was a liability on that line his first 2 years, and now he's considered one of the best in the league. I guarantee you, Mike W and Jonas both look better than Hopkins did his first couple years.

[WG]

Originally posted by the dude
I hope, like Bledsoe says, we remain a big play offense. We just can't look for big plays all the time like we did last year. Without Peerless, we HAVE to change our MO but I still see us using Bledsoe's arm strength at least a dozen times a game.

I contend 2 things about our offense last year: Gilbride lost faith in Henry's ability to hang onto the football, and he was too stubborn to make adjustments in the passing game. I do think Henry will take better care of the ball this year - they worked hard on it in the offseason, yada yada yada. But whether the coaching staff will make adjustments as well as Wade and his staff used to, that is the key question on offense. Not Bledsoe or his abilities.

As far as the D, yes they did improve - I grant you that. But they were, in no way a top 10 defense at the end of the year. Instead, they were a below- average defense with some gaping holes that Gray did well at covering up - again, a point of agreement between us.

...If you can credit the defense and blame special teams and offense for points, you have to allow that the lack of turnovers from our D (the absolute WORST in the league in that category - I don't care what half of the season) led to the need for longer drives and subsequently more potential turnovers from a stilted O. I don't care how you spin points allowed in that GB weather fiasco or against a putrid Cincy team or a slumping Chargers O. The D played 1 great game - against the Chiefs - and even there, when it came down to crunch time, they reverted back to early season rituals against the run.

In order:

A big play offense is fine dude, however, unless all those throws go for TDs, you still will need to have an efficient red zone Offense which we didn't have in other than a handful of games!

The big-play is overrated. It's nice to have a QB who can deliver a deep ball, but again, there can't be such a huge tradeoff that mistakes made on "negative" big plays are worse. Which they were for us. Bledsoe made more negative big plays that led to opponent scores than he did for us leading to scores. Perhaps it's time to consider that perhaps Drew isn't the right man for the job. This year will reveal much.

Secondly, you say that Gilbride lost faith in Henry. The only issue that I have w/ that is that he then turns around and hands the ball to a QB who's demonstrated even less in terms of ball security in critical situations!

Here's Drew's TO history:

1st Jets game: 2 INTs, one setting the Jets up at our 19 for a TD; 2 of 3 team TOs

Raiders game: 3 INTs, one going directly for a TD while we were threatening and down by only 4. Another leading to 7 for the Raiders on the following drive to put the game away. A third to ice the cake later. 3 of all 3 team TOs

K.C. game: INT w/ 4:00 left in the game on 2nd-and-10 after an incomplete pass on 1/10. INT halted our drive at the K.C. 40 YL and effectively ended the game. 1 of 1 team TOs. Henry was averaging 5.3 YPC and K.C. had not demonstrated that they could stop him.

2nd Jets game: 2 INTs, 1 FUM LOST, both INTs set up the Jets at midfield where they promptly scored from leading to 14 Jet points. Both halted our drives as we were nearing their red zone. 3 of all 3 team TOs.

2nd N.E. game: Had 4 INTs, 4 of 5 team TOs. One ended our drive in their RZ. Another set the Pats up at our own 9 YL. Can't blame that on the D. Another set up the Pat for a FG. 4 of 5 team TOs. Other was Price's.

G.B. game: Had 2 INTs and 2 LOST FUMs. 4 of 6 team TOs. 2 cost us 14 in or very near the RZ. The other set up the Pack at our own 39 YL for their only TD.

I don't know why Gilbride would trust that more in games where Henry was averaging 5.3 YPC and had well over 100. As well, he "trusted" Drew so much that in the face of Henry averaging 6.5 YPC, he still kept passing Drew on the heels of an 11 for 33 dismal peformance that almost cost us a win. The only reason we won, is b/c, and seemingly reluctantly, handing the ball to Henry who finished off the last series rushing for 8, 8, 8, 3, and 26 yards for a TD amidst Drew's 1 for 2 for 11 yards after going 10 for 31 on the day. And please don't tell me that it was Drew's arm that "frightened them", :rolleyes:, that gets old!

Bottom line is that Drew and the passing game led us to 13 points thru 57 minutes v. a very mediocre D!

So this notion that Gilbride "didn't trust Henry" makes no sense. That's why Gilbride is an idiot!

And yes, the issue is Bledsoe's abilities. He tossed 4 redzone INTs last year in games where we may have won had he not done that in conjunction w/ his others. He also fumbled once in the red zone v. Cincy. No consequence there however. But that's 5 RZ TOs. 35 points we otherwise would have had and should have had.

Thirdly, on the D, the held:

In game 1 v. the Jets, they held the Jet O to 13 points that had to do w/ their play.

They held the Texans to only 17 that were their fault.

Miami to 10
Detroit to 10 that were their fault
K.C. to 17 on the road
Miami 21
N.E. to 17 that were their fault
S.D. 13
G.B. 10 but set up by Drew
Cincy 9

I don't know what more you expect. They hold teams to below 17 consistently and you and others are griping that they didn't do it properly! :huh:

Doesn't make any sense!!!

If they hold all of our opponents to fewer than 20 points this year they'll be a top ten D easily and I'll be very happy. If this O, w/ all the talent it has, w/ a highly touted Drew at QB, can't amass at least 20 PPG, then the reason we won't be good won't be the D's fault!

Again, what happened late in the season speaks volumes to the D and it shouldn't matter the details of how they kept opponent points down. All we need to concern ourselves w/ is that they did.

[WG]

Originally posted by northernbillfan
15th ranked D over all hardley puts them at a "solid below average".

NBF,

I can't speak for the guy writing that piece, but we allowed only 19.3 PPG over the last 10 games. Had we played that way all season long, it would have placed us at # 7 in the league defensively. When you consider that many of those "points allowed" were set up by the O to put the D in impossible situations, the average would drop to around 17 PPG which would rate #3!

Here's the link BTW:

2002 Scoring D stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=team&sort=ppg&pos=def&league=nfl&season=2&year=2002)

Can't argue w/ 7th. If it were to happen all season long, I'd be happy.

BTW, we all discount the numerous drives, at least 6 or 7 where the O dropped the ball to the opponent in or very near the red zone. We can't expect Drew to toss an INT setting up a team at our own 9 YL and prevent them from scoring! Not always anyway.

But where was the heat on Drew for doing that?

Where was the heat on Drew for tossing 4 red zone, often goal line, picks to prevent us from scoring?

I saw precious little if any criticism of him openly in the media over that!

I'm tellin' ya, the D's gettin'/gotten a raw deal here! Sure, they weren't stellar, and they didn't generate many TOs. But daggone it, they kept points to very, very controllable levels insofar as they could control it in many, many games!

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by Wys Guy



Secondly, you say that Gilbride lost faith in Henry. The only issue that I have w/ that is that he then turns around and hands the ball to a QB who's demonstrated even less in terms of ball security in critical situations!


You are right wys, whenever KG abandoned the run, he should've put in T Brown. Let's just pay Drew millions to hand off to TH and TB to throw deep whenever we're behind. :scared:


Hopefully, running the ball successfully will take pressure off of Drew. I agree w/ you that he does tend to break under pressure and make dumb decisions.

Like I said before, we can blame KG but who is the HC of this team and why doesn't he straighten out KG?

[WG]

You're like a fly buzzing around my head...

Remember the game Defender? The video game? I think that's what it was called. Well I could use a "smartbomb" right about now...

Now you go away! You no welcome here no more!

:D

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
You're like a fly buzzing around my head...

Remember the game Defender? The video game? I think that's what it was called. Well I could use a "smartbomb" right about now...

Now you go away! You no welcome here no more!

:D

:laughter:

[Ð]

***** attracts flies

[WG]

When I see that you are the last one who posted D, I get the kind of feeling you get when you hear a knock at the door and know that it's Jehovah's Witnesses!

:D

[Bulldog]

Hey wys, did you ever think of looking at it the other way around! You seem to harp on the fact that Bledsoe put the defense in vulnerable positions by turning the ball over on our opponents side of the field, which I agree with. But how about the fact that the special teams sucked and the defense could not force a turnover, thus leading to drive starts that typically began at or around our own 24 yd line. Find me any offense in the league that can consistantly put together 80yd drives without turning the ball over occasionaly. I realize that Bledsoe played like crap over the second half of the season, but you also need to look in other directions before you place all the blame on Bledsoe.

[WG]

I'll tell ya what Bulldog, I've cited example after example of stuff like that, so how about going to a few games and finding some examples?

Use the games we lost.

As well, does the notion that Drew's INTs very often caused his own field position detriments that you are mentioning spring up in your mind as a possibility as well?

Support your positions! ;)

We've been through all that. Weather, we were behind and had to throw, the D set us up poorly, etc., and for the most part, it simply isn't true. Weather was hardly a factor and certainly not a factor in losses more than poor QB play was in the G.B. game.

Being behind wasn't a factor unless you consider two things; first, the reason why we were behind early in at least a few games was b/c Drew put us there.

Examples!!! You're incorrect btw, but if you think you can find them, be the man! Then we'll look at the entire game.

Look, I'm a HUGE proponent that football is a team game. But all I heard last year is that "Our best chances of winning are when the ball's in Drew's hands!" FALSE! "The only reason why we were 8-8 is b/c of Drew!" FALSE! "We need Drew's deep arm to win games!" FALSE! "The defense didn't play well!" FALSE!

This has turned into one big game of "the boy who cried wolf!" If we need to err to one side in order to get to the bottom of what really beplagued us last year, then it's not erring towards the side that "Drew's the man!" We've done that for 12 months now and in hindsight and after careful examination and not simply spouting off ESPN media mantras, we've found that things in reality are quite a bit different that the "partyline."

Again, examples. If you have some, then we'll discuss them and your argument will have some credibility. If not, throw the towel in.

[Ð]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
When I see that you are the last one who posted D, I get the kind of feeling you get when you hear a knock at the door and know that it's Jehovah's Witnesses!

:D

You get a hard-on ?

I'm flattered, but that's a little too much information.

[WG]

Pssst!

D...

That's not the normal reaction that normal mentally healthy men get when JW's come to the door! Especially if they're men, and they usually are...

Shhhh....

I won't tell anyone though... but you may want to watch spilling your reactions like that on public forums.

You're dirty little secret's safe w/ me however!

;)

[WG]

All my confidences are off however if I ever hear of JW's mysteriously missing from your area...

:scared:

[The_Philster]

:lol: Wys

[Ð]

Wys, you gotta see the JW chicks who come to the door up here in North Bay. I've got 34 subscriptions to Awake and 25 subscriptions to Watchtower. As a matter of fact I'm going out with Heidi from the JW's on a hot date next Friday.

http://www.comcentral.com/tv_shows/themanshow/profiles/images/suzanne/suzanne_big_03.jpg

I figured we'd do some crazy stuff like get transfused, sing the National Anthem and then go out & register for the draft...

But I'm still flattered...

[The_Philster]

:lol: at this thread

[WG]

You're gonna need a bigger shovel than that to dig yourself outta this one there D...

[Ð]

Ohhhhhhhh, the irony :D

Wys, do yourself a favour and leave the heckling to the professionals.

You got nuttin', honey