So Allen, Mahomes, or Herbert?

[ghz in pittsburgh]

I'm not dissing Jackson or Burrow. Just looks to me those 3 are the best of the best new generation of great QBs. Once Watson plays, maybe I'll add him there - purely from the football point of view.

Herbert is 24, Allen 26, Mahomes 27. So I give Herbert a little slack, anticipating him to develop more in a couple of years.

However, their styles are kind of set. Herbert is like Marino, more of a pocket passer, hated contact, mechanically very sound. if you write a book about what a stereotype QB should be like, that's Herbert, just like Marino was back then.

Mahomes is like Kelly. Does not do things according to the book but very street smart -- he gets it done some how, some way. He's far from your text book QB.

Allen is like Elway. Physically gifted like never seen before, but can drive both opponent coaches and his own coaches crazy. Takes some time to realize that he can leverage his teammates instead of doing everything by himself in order to win. In crunch time, he'll find a way to win.

[Woodman]

Josh Allen

[Bill Cody]

Herbert makes so many great plays, even on 4th down, really clutch. But he seems to find a way to lose a ton of close games. 16-19 so far. Still small sample size and his first year the team wasn't very good but still.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I've thought for a long time that Josh Allen is the best QB for the Buffalo Bills and this city.

I don't think Mahomes would have a championship yet if the Bills drafted him.

I like how much more vocal Josh is than Herbert. Josh is willing to put his body on the line to win games more than I think Herbert is. His leadership is unquestionable.

Josh might not be a better QB than Mahomes or Herbert, or maybe he is, but I wouldn't take either of them over Josh. I'll ride with Josh Allen without looking back.

[Ingtar33]

Herbert makes so many great plays, even on 4th down, really clutch. But he seems to find a way to lose a ton of close games. 16-19 so far. Still small sample size and his first year the team wasn't very good but still.

Herbert is a pre-read guy. he has a great arm, makes a presnap read, and the ball will go to the main target on the play regardless the coverage. the thing is he's accurate enough to do that. it's amazing how often the ball is going to his first target. but he's seriously hamstrung by a very uncreative passing attack and strangely conservative playcalling at times. it's sorta strange how often the coaching staff takes the ball out of his hands on 3rd down.

Mahomes like most QBs is god tier if you can keep him away from pressure, but you keep him in the pocket and get him feeling pressure constantly, and he gets weirdly scattershot with both his accuracy and judgement. If you had to chose one of the three guys to play behind a bad o-line i'd pick mahomes dead last.

Allen used to be a bit streaky, but his "poor" play is getting rarer and rarer, as he keeps raising the floor to his play, it's getting surreal. I'm not worried about Allen behind a bad o-line, nor am I worried about him in a weird offensive system, as i think his physical gifts would probably overcome issues with it. Mahomes might be better if he's not being pressured, and Herbert might be more consistently accurate, but I think Allen is the most capable to carry a franchise in any condition (bad coaching, bad players), and he seems to have a higher ceiling then both, because when Allen is hot, he's legit unstoppable.

[Canadian'eh!]

I mean, who else would I pick. As a Bills fan, I'm rolling with Josh Allen all day.

But if I set aside being a Homer?

Mahomes has won the big games, made those clutch plays needed. Has the MVP, the SB. He has the crown until Josh knocks it off him.

To me Josh would be right there knocking on the door. The skill level is off the charts. He is the guy I expect to be gunning for that crown most.

Herbert is #3. Everyone sees the skill, he's just one step back. At times the team is still holding him back a bit too. But he's growing just as Josh did.

Burrow can very well become the 4th horse in this race. Week 1 aside, he's great. He has top notch weapons. But if the Bengals don't get him some protection they might derail the whole thing.

Lamar is Mike Vick until I see otherwise. I can't put him in the conversation unless his passing becomes the primary weapon. I don't see that happening.

[Forward_Lateral]

Allen makes plays that nobody else can make, not even Patrick.

[Cali512]

Mahomes is nothing like kelly at all lmfao. How in the world did you coo-relate those 2. Honestly Herbert reminds me of kelly much more than anybody


Mahomes to me is hard to judge. He has all the talent in the world but only needs to use it two or 3 times a game. Im curious what hed be like in a system that requires consistent tight window throws. To me, hes a mix of elway and brady.


Allen to me if Brett Favre with Cam Newton's prime mobility.

Based on this i would take Allen because i think his ability is soley on him where as Mahomes is at least partially due to scheme. Herbert doesnt have any arm angles and limited mobility. I think hes 3rd on this list

[Goobylal]

There is no other QB I'd rather have than Josh and when he hangs it up, I'll be sad because we'll never see another one like him.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Mahomes has the best vision of the field of any QBs I've seen. Note I'm not talking about anticipation, just the whole field at any given time, especially on the run. And he's able to get the ball out there a million different way EFFECTIVELY. I would rate him best, not just better than Allen, but better than Brady, Rodgers.

[Bill Cody]

Josh has to win at least one before he can be the best

[Kenny]

Mahomes is nothing like kelly at all lmfao. How in the world did you coo-relate those 2. Honestly Herbert reminds me of kelly much more than anybody


Mahomes to me is hard to judge. He has all the talent in the world but only needs to use it two or 3 times a game. Im curious what hed be like in a system that requires consistent tight window throws. To me, hes a mix of elway and brady.


Allen to me if Brett Favre with Cam Newton's prime mobility.

Based on this i would take Allen because i think his ability is soley on him where as Mahomes is at least partially due to scheme. Herbert doesnt have any arm angles and limited mobility. I think hes 3rd on this list
That's exactly who Allen is, except he's showing he has no problem dinking and dunking when defense are taking away the top. It's like a combination of Farve, Brady, and Newton.

I've said this before, and I dont see anything that would change this assessment. If I needed someone to win right now, it would be Allen. He puts it all out, everytime. Big game, small game, late in the half, etc... he'll do it all.
But if it was for the long term, I'm leaning towards Mahommes. Allen and the Bills are playing with fire.

[Cali512]

That's exactly who Allen is, except he's showing he has no problem dinking and dunking when defense are taking away the top. It's like a combination of Farve, Brady, and Newton.

I've said this before, and I dont see anything that would change this assessment. If I needed someone to win right now, it would be Allen. He puts it all out, everytime. Big game, small game, late in the half, etc... he'll do it all.
But if it was for the long term, I'm leaning towards Mahommes. Allen and the Bills are playing with fire.


Arm of Favre
Arm talent of Mahomes
Size and strength of Ben
Rushing ability of Cam Newton

And hes developing the mindset of Brady

I think thats honestly what he is. He makes a lot of the same arm angles mahomes does, maybe not specifically like yesterday, but in terms of lowering his angle to fit it in windows maintaining velocity, hes the only QB in history in mahomes ballpark

[ghz in pittsburgh]

I mentioned Mahomes has the best vision and unconventional effective throwing methods (probably due to he was a short stop playing baseball before). But I do think his sense of people around him -- pressure around the pocket is not as good as Allen. People mention that Mahomes has a little bit of happy feet is not untrue. Allen, from day one, showed best awareness of pressure among all Bills QB I have seen. That's just something you are born with.

[Goobylal]

It's amazing how every game, Mahomes has 2-3 sure INTs dropped.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I don't want my quarterback taking this slide. Even Fitzpatrick would try to get in the endzone here.


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Wanna know the difference between Allen &amp; Herbert? Here ya go. Allen wouldn’t slide on this play even if his life depended on it. <a href="https://t.co/5Tf8Lyg4Q3">pic.twitter.com/5Tf8Lyg4Q3</a></p>&mdash; Z-Bot (@zacb22) <a href="https://twitter.com/zacb22/status/1569070345985851392?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 11, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Novacane]

1. Josh
2. Mahomes
3. Herbert

[Woodman]

Mahomes is nothing like kelly at all lmfao. How in the world did you coo-relate those 2. Honestly Herbert reminds me of kelly much more than anybody


Mahomes to me is hard to judge. He has all the talent in the world but only needs to use it two or 3 times a game. Im curious what hed be like in a system that requires consistent tight window throws. To me, hes a mix of elway and brady.


Allen to me if Brett Favre with Cam Newton's prime mobility.

Based on this i would take Allen because i think his ability is soley on him where as Mahomes is at least partially due to scheme. Herbert doesnt have any arm angles and limited mobility. I think hes 3rd on this list
Mahomes is a shortstop playing QB.

[Night Train]

What ? No Mac Jones ? GASP !

[Cali512]

It's amazing how every game, Mahomes has 2-3 sure INTs dropped.



Last year he was number one in dropped interceptions, last in attempted tight window throws, while his receivers were number one in separation, top 3 in RAC, and 20% of his yds started from behind the LOS


I honestly feel like hes more of a product of his system than anything. Not saying hes not a great QB, he is, but i honestly feel like if you put 5-6 QBs in that system, they are equal or better than him

[Novacane]

What ? No Mac Jones ? GASP !

This thread is for 2nd best. There's no debate about Mac as #1.

[Goobylal]

Herbert plays scared. He's not fearless running like Josh is.

[Cali512]

Herbert plays scared. He's not fearless running like Josh is.


Herbert is interesting because he literally can only throw from one stance. Hes a machine but is very stationary and stiff. He doesnt have multiple arm angles like allen and mahomes.

[Woodman]

Herbert plays scared. He's not fearless running like Josh is.
I don't the sense he's very durable.

[YardRat]

I'll take Allen over anybody right now.

[Woodman]

In a heartbeat.

[notacon]

There is no other QB I'd rather have than Josh and when he hangs it up, I'll be sad because we'll never see another one like him.

As I have said numerous times, there is no other QB like Josh Allen in the history of the NFL.

The combination of size, strength, speed, accuracy, arm strength, football smarts, instinct and competitive fire make him a Unicorn.

He embodies traits from many famous elite QB’s but there is not ONE that has them all in one guy.

It’s a circular and never ending argument as who are the best of the best new generation of great QBs. I am grateful that there are so many that make NFL football the best and most entertaining sport in the world.

Of course Josh Allen is MY guy, and I would not want it any other way.

But, I cannot disrespect the numerous fantastic and exciting to watch young QBs today (besides the old guys, Rodgers, Brady and Russel Wilson).

For the first time in decades the Bills HAVE oe the best. That is enough to warm my heart and the realization that we have years and years ahead to celebrate as a Bills fan!!

[Buddo]

For all his arm talent, for me, Herbert is still significantly behind Allen and Mahomes.

I've not watched a whole heap of him, but I was pretty underwhelmed by a couple of things I saw in the Chiefs game.

There was a god awful throw into triple coverage, that never had a window, at all. I know guys with big arms will take an extra chance from time to time, thinking they can get it there quick enough, but it never looked like there was even a peephole of an opportunity, let alone a window.

I was distinctly unimpressed with his body language after the interception. He was being talked to on the sidelines by Everett, who he had been going to, and yet he was just staring straight ahead.

Atm, while I don't question his arm, I would question both his leadership, and experience, both of which are currently far behind Allen and Mahomes.

Experience will obviously come with more games played, but I wouldn't be oo quick to anoint him until he shows he's learning from experience.

[Cali512]

For all his arm talent, for me, Herbert is still significantly behind Allen and Mahomes.

I've not watched a whole heap of him, but I was pretty underwhelmed by a couple of things I saw in the Chiefs game.

There was a god awful throw into triple coverage, that never had a window, at all. I know guys with big arms will take an extra chance from time to time, thinking they can get it there quick enough, but it never looked like there was even a peephole of an opportunity, let alone a window.

I was distinctly unimpressed with his body language after the interception. He was being talked to on the sidelines by Everett, who he had been going to, and yet he was just staring straight ahead.

Atm, while I don't question his arm, I would question both his leadership, and experience, both of which are currently far behind Allen and Mahomes.

Experience will obviously come with more games played, but I wouldn't be oo quick to anoint him until he shows he's learning from experience.



I feel like allen and herbert are light years ahead of mahomes when it comes to tight window throws. But mahomes is way better in terms of field vision and finding the open receiver.
I feel like the narrative that mahomes is a gunslinger isnt fully accurate. Most of his plays are just efficient throws to the open reciever or the scramble drill. Even when you watch his career highlights, there isnt a lot of wow plays in terms of "how did he fit it in there". Its his arm angles, his deep ball accuracy, his ability to run around and find an open receiver. I also notice he NEVER rolls out to the left, and he's extremely quick to leave the pocket and play back yard football. I think we could shut him completely down if we keep Von and Rousseau on the right side all game. He never rolls to the left. phillips getting interior pressure with von and rousseau keeping contain to the right could be a recipe to shut mahomes down


That 40 yd pass is a pass that only Allen and Herbert can make also. Allen and Herbert are the best at pass velocity, but Herbert isnt that mobile or strong, and has to be in his form to throw a pass. I have never in herberts career, seen him throw from any form other than his stationary feet set throwing motion

[Typ0]

Josh Allen senses the time and place to will a team to victory as well as anyone I have ever seen. That is the bottom line about unleashing Josh Allen on the opponent. He is still learning to slow down and process. All signs are it is only going to continue to get better.

[swiper]

I am late in here, but asked others the same question. If you had to have any other person than Josh Allen, which non-Mahomes NFL QB would you take? Current QBs only.

Answer should be 100% Hebert.

[swiper]

Herbert plays scared. He's not fearless running like Josh is.

No he doesn't. That is ridiculous. Plus he's FARTHER along than Josh for where he is at in his career.

[Cali512]

I am late in here, but asked others the same question. If you had to have any other person than Josh Allen, which non-Mahomes NFL QB would you take? Current QBs only.

Answer should be 100% Hebert.



I still cant tell if its mahomes or his offense. Receivers are literally running wide open while herbert is making tight window throws all game, allen too. I feel like there it 5-7 QBs that would be equal to mahomes or even better in that offense. The 5 TD game was literally 4 swing passes/shovel passes and a pass to kelce in the back corner of the endzone. He gets so many tds that are schemed so perfectly, he just has to not mess it up. Hes extremely good at seeing the field, but when you force him to throw in tight windows, he struggles a lot. The other day the 4-5 times he had to make a pass in traffic, he nearly had 3 interceptions. Hes not used to throwing to receivers that are covered

[Buddo]

No he doesn't. That is ridiculous. Plus he's FARTHER along than Josh for where he is at in his career.

While that's a fair enough statement atm, if he doesn't get them to the playoffs this year, he won't be after it, regardless of big passing numbers. ;)

[Ingtar33]

just a sidenote to the people talking about the need for JA to slide more... or not run as much. Herbert broke a rib getting hit in the pocket.

[Goobylal]

No he doesn't. That is ridiculous. Plus he's FARTHER along than Josh for where he is at in his career.

We’ll agree to disagree on his toughness. Suffice it to say that Josh is a guy that opposing defenders fear facing because of his size, running ability and willingness to dish it out.

As for being farther along, Herbert was a better player that Josh in his first two years of their careers, but Josh has been the better player since Herbert entered the league.

[swiper]

While that's a fair enough statement atm, if he doesn't get them to the playoffs this year, he won't be after it, regardless of big passing numbers. ;)

What makes you say that?

[swiper]

We’ll agree to disagree on his toughness. Suffice it to say that Josh is a guy that opposing defenders fear facing because of his size, running ability and willingness to dish it out.

As for being farther along, Herbert was a better player that Josh in his first two years of their careers, but Josh has been the better player since Herbert entered the league.

That has nothing to do with anything. Both QBs are still developing. Allen is 2 seasons farther along.

Interesting. I did not realize that Hebert was an inch taller than Allen.

[swiper]

I still cant tell if its mahomes or his offense. Receivers are literally running wide open while herbert is making tight window throws all game, allen too. I feel like there it 5-7 QBs that would be equal to mahomes or even better in that offense. The 5 TD game was literally 4 swing passes/shovel passes and a pass to kelce in the back corner of the endzone. He gets so many tds that are schemed so perfectly, he just has to not mess it up. Hes extremely good at seeing the field, but when you force him to throw in tight windows, he struggles a lot. The other day the 4-5 times he had to make a pass in traffic, he nearly had 3 interceptions. Hes not used to throwing to receivers that are covered

And Mahomes always seems to know right where they are. Going to be some good football this season. The more good QBs out there, the better. Makes the games more fun to watch.

[Goobylal]

That has nothing to do with anything. Both QBs are still developing. Allen is 2 seasons farther along.

Interesting. I did not realize that Hebert was an inch taller than Allen.

Sure it does. Josh will always be ahead.

And yeah, he's an inch (1-3/8" to be exact) taller but they're the same weight.

[Mr. Pink]

I'd put Burrow above Herbert.

And outside of Brady, Mahomes is the best QB in the NFL today.

[Cali512]

I'd put Burrow above Herbert.

And outside of Brady, Mahomes is the best QB in the NFL today.


Allen, Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Herbert imo


I just cant put mahomes ahead of them with all his flaws. Hes great at reading the defense but he honestly is a one read QB then scrambles to the right and finds a receiver. Its worked for him so far but he gets away with a lot due to having an offense where he rarely has to put the ball in a tight window


The first game of the season he had literally one pass in a tight window, the whole game he was throwing to wide open receivers. All but one of his tds were swing passes to wide open RBs and a shovel pass


Vs LAC, he had once again, 2 difficult passes all night. His 2 TDs were impressive but watch herbert and what hes dealing with vs mahomes. Herbert had to 90% of the game, whip the ball into double coverage and make extremely tight window throws. Mahomes rarely has to do that and when the receivers are actually covered, hes not good at fitting the ball in there. The 4 times he had to make a play because his receivers were covered, he nearly had 4 ints.


I think Andy Reid masks a lot of his flaws and makes the game exceptionally easy for mahomes. He knows mahomes isnt that great at manipulating the pocket so he runs a lot of cross patterns and allows mahomes to always have someone when hes scrambling to the right. The more i watch mahomes, the more i see how much of his success is more due to andy reid than his actual skill. Just seeing the degree of difficulty when hes playing vs his opponent. Hes playing on rookie while other QBs are playing on all madden


People have got to quit worshiping mahomes, he literally has the easiest job in nfl history. 13 seconds was a routine pass to hill who had leverage in single coverage and then essentially a screen to kelce. The whole overtime was screen passes and swing passes. Like i said, hes great at reading the field, he has very good accuracy, his deep passes are pretty good, and hes good at running around and finding players during scramble drills. Hes not that good at passes to the sideline, he makes a lot of dumb passes which is why he consistently is top 5 in dropped ints, he is not good at staying in the pocket and manipulating it, he runs around as soon as he gets some pressure, hes an average runner. Hes not this magical QB that is obviously the best.

[notacon]

Allen, Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Herbert imo


I just cant put mahomes ahead of them with all his flaws. Hes great at reading the defense but he honestly is a one read QB then scrambles to the right and finds a receiver. Its worked for him so far but he gets away with a lot due to having an offense where he rarely has to put the ball in a tight window


The first game of the season he had literally one pass in a tight window, the whole game he was throwing to wide open receivers. All but one of his tds were swing passes to wide open RBs and a shovel pass


Vs LAC, he had once again, 2 difficult passes all night. His 2 TDs were impressive but watch herbert and what hes dealing with vs mahomes. Herbert had to 90% of the game, whip the ball into double coverage and make extremely tight window throws. Mahomes rarely has to do that and when the receivers are actually covered, hes not good at fitting the ball in there. The 4 times he had to make a play because his receivers were covered, he nearly had 4 ints.


I think Andy Reid masks a lot of his flaws and makes the game exceptionally easy for mahomes. He knows mahomes isnt that great at manipulating the pocket so he runs a lot of cross patterns and allows mahomes to always have someone when hes scrambling to the right. The more i watch mahomes, the more i see how much of his success is more due to andy reid than his actual skill. Just seeing the degree of difficulty when hes playing vs his opponent. Hes playing on rookie while other QBs are playing on all madden


People have got to quit worshiping mahomes, he literally has the easiest job in nfl history. 13 seconds was a routine pass to hill who had leverage in single coverage and then essentially a screen to kelce. The whole overtime was screen passes and swing passes. Like i said, hes great at reading the field, he has very good accuracy, his deep passes are pretty good, and hes good at running around and finding players during scramble drills. Hes not that good at passes to the sideline, he makes a lot of dumb passes which is why he consistently is top 5 in dropped ints, he is not good at staying in the pocket and manipulating it, he runs around as soon as he gets some pressure, hes an average runner. Hes not this magical QB that is obviously the best.

What nonsense. Your jihad against Mahomes is incredibly dumb and ignorant.

The REAL experts, fifty to fifty five "NFL coaches and executives” have voted Mahomes a “Tier 1” QB FOUR years n a row.

Their 1 is defined as :

“A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations.”

Here are the comments from the REAL experts for each year (these are published before the respective season....so 2019 was done before the 2019 season)

2019 - #4 overall.....48 Tier 1 votes, 7 Tier 2 votes (https://theathletic.com/1082093/2019/07/22/2019-nfl-quarterback-tiers-rankings/)



All voters agreed Mahomes played at a top-tier level in 2018, his first as the Chiefs (https://theathletic.com/team/chiefs/)’ full-time starter. The seven who placed Mahomes in the second tier said they wanted to see him do it again before granting him entry into the club that Rodgers and Brady headed for so long. It’s a tough crowd.
“He is as good as I’ve ever seen,” an exec who placed Mahomes in the top tier said. “I remember seeing that last game two years ago when he played against Denver (https://theathletic.com/team/broncos/), and I said, ‘Ho-lyyy s—!’ We just could not believe some of the throws he was making. It’s ridiculous, and he is only going to get better. How can you not give him a 1? Who is better right now? You would take him over any player in the league.”

Even voters who loved Mahomes coming out of college thought he would need more time to become an MVP candidate.
“I want to see him do it again when people study him and their offense,” another exec said, “but from what I’ve seen, he might end up being the best ever. He has got some of the best-ever superpowers.”
Playing in Andy Reid’s offense stocked with playmakers surely helped.

“You play for Andy Reid and you’re going to have numbers — to the point where what’s-his-name (Donovan McNabb) thinks he’s a Hall of Famer,” a former head coach said. “What Mahomes did was still amazing. I just don’t know if you can continue to play the way he plays and not have the big mistakes. He reminds me of Favre, and I think he’s going to end up having Favre moments.”

Favre had 19 touchdowns with 24 interceptions in his second season as a starter, back when defenders got their hands on the football much more frequently. Unlike Mahomes, Favre wasn’t close to achieving MVP status during his first full season in the lineup. Of course, if a Favre-like career is the floor for Mahomes, that seems quite acceptable.

“Mahomes hasn’t been scarred yet, so he don’t give a f—,” a head coach said. “That won’t change until he throws one of those across-the-field balls for a pick in the AFC Championship Game or he goes multiple years without playoff success like Peyton did for a while.”

Another head coach looked past the spectacular plays when evaluating Mahomes.

“The thing I was so impressed with: Yeah, he makes the spectacular play, but he is playing the position,” this head coach said. “He is seeing coverage, working through progressions. He is different than (Deshaun) Watson. He is making plays in rhythm when they are there, but then he is creating some of the most unbelievable off-schedule things I have ever seen in my life.”


2020 - #1 overall - 50 Tier 1 votes. NO votes for lower tiers. (https://theathletic.com/1945894/2020/07/27/2020-quarterback-tiers-50-coaches-and-evaluators-rank-the-nfl-starters/)



There was excitement but little shock when Mahomes led two late touchdown drives to beat the 49ers (https://theathletic.com/team/niners/) in the Super Bowl. The Tier 1 quarterback is supposed to expertly handle those treacherous situations when the opposing defense knows what is coming —not every time, of course, but enough to separate himself. The team without the Tier 1 quarterback is more apt to handle things the way San Francisco did shortly before halftime of the same game, when the decision was made not to play aggressively on offense.

Mahomes joins Wilson, Rodgers and Brady as the only unanimous Tier 1 selections in the seven-year history of the QB Tiers survey. Rodgers and Brady did it four consecutive seasons ending in 2018. Mahomes and Wilson stand alone this year, with most voters giving Mahomes the edge as the best quarterback in the league, while acknowledging his favorable circumstances.

“The guy is a freak show,” a head coach said. “I have never seen a guy that big, that athletic, that strong of an arm, that good at decision making, that many clubs in his bag. He’s got touch, he’s got zip, he can throw the long-ass bomb, he can avoid guys, he knows where his issues are protection-wise. He is a guy I really enjoy watching play.”

Counting playoffs, the Chiefs (https://theathletic.com/team/chiefs/) posted a 5-1 record last season in games when they trailed by 10 or more points. The rest of the league was 32-209-1.

“They are talented in Kansas City and they have a great coach, but Mahomes does carry that football team,” an evaluator with three decades of NFL experience said. “They have had a game manager (Alex Smith) and could not get over the hump. Mahomes has gotten them over. He has changed that whole thing. Patrick Mahomes dominates. You never feel like the game is over. I can’t think of anyone like him.”

Mahomes arguably enjoys the NFL’s best receiving tight end in Travis Kelce (https://theathletic.com/player/nfl/chiefs/travis-kelce/), its scariest deep receiver in Tyreek Hill (https://theathletic.com/player/nfl/dolphins/tyreek-hill/) and its most accomplished offensive coach.

“Extraordinary weapons,” a former head coach said, “but you have to give Mahomes credit. He’s accurate, especially when he has to move and he resets. He gets it, he understands the scheme of the plays. He is the perfect guy because if it’s not there, he can bail you out and make it look good.”



2021 - Tied #1 overall (with Rodgers) - 50 Tier 1 votes, ZERO votes for lower Tier (https://theathletic.com/2727336/2021/07/28/2021-nfl-quarterback-tiers-50-coaches-and-evaluators-rank-the-leagues-starters/)



It’s fitting that Mahomes and Rodgers are the only unanimous Tier 1 choices this year. They are indeed different.

“They are the only two that can operate in the pocket or escape left or escape right to throw off of any platform with a sniper’s accuracy,” a coach with both NFC North and AFC West experience said. “That is where they are really high-end athletes, like basketball player athletes. I’m taking Mahomes and Rodgers in anything from cornhole to match-play golf.”

Mahomes is a unanimous Tier 1 choice for the second consecutive season, joining Rodgers and Brady as the only players to earn that distinction more than once since the survey began in 2014 (Wilson in 2020 is the only other unanimous Tier 1 selection).

“Mahomes is the best I’ve seen,” a head coach said. “He’s played two bad games in his career. They’re both in Super Bowls, but I’ve never seen anybody as good as him, and seeing him live is even more impressive. If you are open, he doesn’t miss. He looks like he is playing JV football compared to everybody else.”

There are some who prefer Rodgers.
“It wasn’t Mahomes’ fault directly in the Super Bowl, but he was running for his life and he had a hard time,” a defensive coordinator said. “I think A-Rod sees the game better than him and doesn’t put himself in that position to the same degree. Mahomes might be a couple years away from living through that stuff. He will keep running around and making plays, which he is amazing at, but I think A-Rod gets to the answers faster.”

No quarterback performs at optimum levels consistently under pressure. Rodgers also struggled against the Buccaneers’ ferocious pass rush. He previously struggled against the San Francisco 49ers (https://theathletic.com/team/niners/)’ rush as well.

“Kansas City (https://theathletic.com/team/chiefs/) addressed their line, which means Mahomes can get back into his routine of stepping up in the pocket, moving subtly instead of running for his life,” an offensive play-caller said. “He should get back into a more natural flow.”

Flow or no flow, Mahomes was the only player to finish last season ranked among the top five in both total pass attempts and expected points added (EPA) per attempt, according to TruMedia. That’s an indication the Chiefs’ passing efficiency remained high despite high volume.

“Mahomes epitomizes what you want in that guy,” a former head coach said. “He makes those throws when he has to move and he sees the field, he can extend the play and he can stay in the pocket and make throws. He’s really grown a lot more than I thought he would be capable of.”



2022 - #2 overall - 49 Tier 1 votes, 1 Tier 2 votes (https://theathletic.com/3443022/2022/07/25/nfl-best-quarterbacks-tiers/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=4658383)



A single contrarian voter prevented Mahomes from tying Rodgers at the top. That voter, a veteran defensive play caller, thinks there were times last season when Mahomes failed to read defenses the way top-tier quarterbacks should.

“We love Mahomes because of his unorthodox throws, not because of his natural pocket presence,” this voter said. “And when that disappears, that is when they lose games. I don’t think that is a 1. I think that is a 2. Nothing against the guy. I love the kid. But take his first read away and what does he do? He runs, he scrambles and he plays streetball.”

Mahomes during the past three seasons has commanded 149 Tier 1 votes, with just this single vote in Tier 2.

“This guy, he’s box office,” a quarterbacks coach said. “I mean, anybody would pay to watch Aaron Rodgers and him play. If you had the worst seat in the house, you would still go watch Patrick Mahomes play.”

Last season, defenses for the first time curtailed Mahomes’ ability to strike for explosive plays. The Chiefs (https://theathletic.com/team/chiefs/) gained more than 15 yards on 14.6% of Mahomes’ pass attempts where gains that long were possible. That ranked 19th among qualifying quarterbacks. Mahomes ranked first during the previous three seasons at 20.3%.

“If I’m playing the optimistic side, I say defenses caught up with them a little bit, they wanted a slow death and he was still on a throw-it-downfield mentality because he had 10 (Tyreek Hill (https://theathletic.com/nfl/player/tyreek-hill-9f4ZZkppMneXJAFj/)),” an offensive coach said. “Without 10, he will dink and dunk, and they will coach him to that. He will complete so many balls this year because they will get his mind wired for that before the season. Moving Tyreek forced them to a mentality that they would have had to do anyway, and now it’s just easier. It is hard to sell that to a quarterback when you have 10 running around.”


A defensive coordinator said Hill was the No. 1 game-plan consideration when facing Kansas City, above Mahomes.

“It’s like they play NBA (https://theathletic.com/nba/) iso-ball and just try to get enough space for a matchup on (Travis) Kelce or a matchup on Tyreek,” another defensive play caller said. “If Mahomes has a quote-unquote flaw, I do not think he is the greatest at diagnosing, but he is so extremely talented with his arm, his release and the way that they run their offense, it is just pick your best matchup and go work that. If you’re a matchup-oriented team and you lose one of your top matchup guys like that, it is going to affect how you play. Maybe he has to adapt a little bit, but I think he has all the makeup to do it.”

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how dumb it is. Your opinion, ****ting and disrespecting Mahomes is monumentally dumb.

When you write total crap like: "I just cant put mahomes ahead of them with all his flaws.”....." he honestly is a one read QB then scrambles to the right and finds a receiver.”...."I think Andy Reid masks a lot of his flaws and makes the game exceptionally easy for mahomes”....."He knows mahomes isnt that great at manipulating the pocket”...."the more i see how much of his success is more due to andy reid than his actual skill.”...."Hes playing on rookie while other QBs are playing on all madden”...."People have got to quit worshiping mahomes, he literally has the easiest job in nfl history.”...."Hes not this magical QB that is obviously the best.”

When compared to what the REAL experts say....the ones being paid millions of $’s because of their experience, knowledge and expertise.......it makes your opinions and observations looks incredible ignorant, dumb, silly and just plain lacking in any credibility.

Just stop. You are making a fool of yourself.

[Mr. Pink]

I saw something online that I think put the argument well here, especially since Burrow isn't in the discussion for some dumb reason...

Josh Allen and Justin Herbert get credit for almost beating Mahomes and the Chiefs, while Mahomes gets no credit for actually beating Allen and the Bills plus Herbert and the Chargers.

[notacon]

I saw something online that I think put the argument well here, especially since Burrow isn't in the discussion for some dumb reason...

Josh Allen and Justin Herbert get credit for almost beating Mahomes and the Chiefs, while Mahomes gets no credit for actually beating Allen and the Bills plus Herbert and the Chargers.
A lot of what Cali writes dissing Mahomes (basically he is saying that the KC system developed by Andy Reid is “masking his flaws” and "the more i see how much of his success is more due to andy reid than his actual skill.”...etc...etc....) is what many idiots tried to say about Tom Brady.

[Cali512]

he was last in attempted aggressive throws, the team was number one in separation, top 3 in RAC, 25% of his yds start from behind the los


hes a one read then scramble. His stats make people blind to his flaws but andy reid masks alot of his deficiencies


His career highlights are the most unimpressive highlights ive ever seen. Half are screens, deep passes that are half the time underthrow, like 5 tight window throw's


like i said, his field recognition is amazing and hes very accurate. But he rarely throws in tight windows and when he does he struggles. Unlike allen and herbert, he isnt great at fitting a pass in a tight window


Hes the nfls darling becausw hald the nfl only looks at stats, but every game his receivers get more separation than any team ive ever seen. Like i said, he has the easiest job in nfl history


This offense had matt moore in 2 1/2 games throwing for 700 yds, 4 tds and no ints

[Novacane]

Josh is the right QB for our team. If you were starting a team you couldn't go wrong with any of them. Dissing Mahomes is nonsense.

[Cali512]

Josh is the right QB for our team. If you were starting a team you couldn't go wrong with any of them. Dissing Mahomes is nonsense.

Facts are facts. Half his production is literally handed to him on a silver platter


Like i said before, hes in the top 4 imo. He just isnt this unanimous goat that everyone acts like he is

[Novacane]

Facts are facts. Half his production is literally handed to him on a silver platter


Like i said before, hes in the top 4 imo. He just isnt this unanimous goat that everyone acts like he is



He's top 2. It's either him or Josh.

- - - Updated - - -


Facts are facts. Half his production is literally handed to him on a silver platter


Like i said before, hes in the top 4 imo. He just isnt this unanimous goat that everyone acts like he is

[Mr. Pink]

A lot of what Cali writes dissing Mahomes (basically he is saying that the KC system developed by Andy Reid is “masking his flaws” and "the more i see how much of his success is more due to andy reid than his actual skill.”...etc...etc....) is what many idiots tried to say about Tom Brady.

I remember when I was younger people always did the same with Joe Montana dismissing what he was doing because he was a "system" QB and Bill Walsh was the genius behind the 49ers WCO.

[Cali512]

I remember when I was younger people always did the same with Joe Montana dismissing what he was doing because he was a "system" QB and Bill Walsh was the genius behind the 49ers WCO.



I posted the stats that support my argument. Theres no arguing, he is throwing to wide open receivers all game and rarely if ever has to throw into a tight window and when he has to, its not pretty

[notacon]

he was last in attempted aggressive throws, the team was number one in separation, top 3 in RAC, 25% of his yds start from behind the los


hes a one read then scramble. His stats make people blind to his flaws but andy reid masks alot of his deficiencies


His career highlights are the most unimpressive highlights ive ever seen. Half are screens, deep passes that are half the time underthrow, like 5 tight window throw's


like i said, his field recognition is amazing and hes very accurate. But he rarely throws in tight windows and when he does he struggles. Unlike allen and herbert, he isnt great at fitting a pass in a tight window


Hes the nfls darling becausw hald the nfl only looks at stats, but every game his receivers get more separation than any team ive ever seen. Like i said, he has the easiest job in nfl history


This offense had matt moore in 2 1/2 games throwing for 700 yds, 4 tds and no ints


Facts are facts. Half his production is literally handed to him on a silver platter


Like i said before, hes in the top 4 imo. He just isnt this unanimous goat that everyone acts like he is

So, you have decided to continue embarrassing yourself with silly and nonsensical posts. Hey, that’s your business. Foolish is as foolish does.

Many people said that Mahomes would miss Tyreek Hill, and Hill made Mahomes look good. Kinda like the crap you are trying to dish out.

WRONG!!!

Here is someone who actually knows what he is talking about....with decades of experience and on speed dial with every NFL HC, GM, NFL owner and all the best NFL players, today and for years and years and years....Peter King....

Peter King’s Football Morning in America (https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/09/19/tua-tagovailoa-dolphins-peter-king-fmia-week-2/?cid=nbcsports)





Hello, Next Gen!
This season, FMIA has partnered with Next Gen Stats, the league’s new generation of advanced metrics and statistic, with data collected from 250 tracking devices per game on players, officials, pylons and footballs. Each week, I’ll use NGS to help tell a deeper story or stories about the games that week.


Today: How Patrick Mahomes (https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/8824/patrick-mahomes) is adjusting without Tyreek Hill (https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/8826/tyreek-hill).


Pretty well, so far. There is no disputing how dominant Hill can be and has been in the first two weeks for Miami. But Kansas City has been borderline explosive without him. Mahomes is a league-best plus-seven in TD-to-interception ratio (7-0). He also is the early league leader — and ahead of his career bests — in passer rating (127.9) and yards-per-attempt (9.9), with 73 percent accuracy.


With the speedy Hill last year, KC receivers averaged 11.0 yards per catch. Without Hill and with a cadre of four new receivers this year, KC receivers are averaging 11.0 yards per catch.


Next Gen Stats make Mahomes’ first two weeks even more impressive, particularly when you consider he’s getting pressured far more this season so far.


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/25/2022/09/mahomes-nextgen.jpg?resize=1024,576

Mahomes is throwing quicker than last year, getting blitzed at a much higher rate, and is more accurate. It’s almost like he likes being rushed—in part, of course, because with fewer bodies in coverage, he has a better chance to find a receiver quicker.

Look at the air yards numbers. Air yards is how far past the line of scrimmage each Mahomes pass travels, on average. It’s actually slightly further this year, per NGS, than last year when Hill was stretching defenses for Mahomes.


What’s most impressive about this chart? Mahomes has had to get familiar with four new receivers to the team this year — JuJu Smith-Schuster (https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/11412/juju-smith-schuster), Marquez Valdes-Scantling (https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/7798/marquez-valdes-scantling), Justin Watson (https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/12149/justin-watson) and Skyy Moore (https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/67165/skyy-moore). Those four receivers have averaged nine catches for 112 yards in the two games so far.


Watson’s 41-yard touchdown that got KC back in the game Thursday night was an outlier, but a classic football play. Mahomes had what for him was an otherworldly time to throw — 3.84 seconds. The Chargers blitzed, sending linebacker Drue Tranquill (https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/51676/drue-tranquill) up the A gap (over the center, essentially) and running back Jerick McKinnon (https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/11894/jerick-mckinnon) stone Tranquill—giving Mahomes the extra second to find, throw and lead Watson for the touchdown.

Next Gen Stats has one more gem about Mahomes, and one more reason why the blitz is simply not a smart move when playing defense on him. Since 2018, when Mahomes became Kansas City’s full-time starter, he’s faced the lowest blitz rate of the 49 quarterbacks with at least 500 attempts since then — just 19.0 percent of his pass attempts.

The compelling part, per Next Gen: Mahomes, since opening day 2018, has thrown three interceptions versus the blitz. But when rushed by four or fewer defenders, he has thrown 33 interceptions. When defensive coordinators who love to send pressure face Kansas City, they’d be wise to dial back their gameplans and keep seven men back. If not, chances are Mahomes will shred them.


I know you think you are being clever ignoring the facts, and literally every single NFL professional expert in the world (and basically everyone in the world that watches football) with your shallow, silly and ridiculous jihad against Mahomes which is incredibly dumb and ignorant.

You are on an island.....and no one is on the island of silly with you. Enjoy yourself. :rolleyes:

[Cali512]

So, you have decided to continue embarrassing yourself with silly and nonsensical posts. Hey, that’s your business. Foolish is as foolish does.

Many people said that Mahomes would miss Tyreek Hill, and Hill made Mahomes look good. Kinda like the crap you are trying to dish out.

WRONG!!!

Here is someone who actually knows what he is talking about....with decades of experience and on speed dial with every NFL HC, GM, NFL owner and all the best NFL players, today and for years and years and years....Peter King....

Peter King’s Football Morning in America (https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/09/19/tua-tagovailoa-dolphins-peter-king-fmia-week-2/?cid=nbcsports)




I know you think you are being clever ignoring the facts, and literally every single NFL professional expert in the world (and basically everyone in the world that watches football) with your shallow, silly and ridiculous jihad against Mahomes which is incredibly dumb and ignorant.

You are on an island.....and no one is on the island of silly with you. Enjoy yourself. :rolleyes:


Ive literally pointed out all the facts to support my argument. Its not my job to make you comprehend that. Im not trying to do mission impossible right now



The dumbest thing about you is i literally posted my top 10 QBs and had mahomes behind allen and i believe rodgers. Right now im explaining the facts that lead me to the conclusion. you even told me you agree with most of my list. Im literally saying hes closer to 3-5 than unanimously number one because of all the free yds and tds he gets


Your really bad at nuance and looking deeper than face value. You have a flat earther vibe