Requiem for the Bills - When will Josh Learn??

[notacon]

A week after the divisional round, Peter King (who is one of the best sports writers in the country) revisited the Bills loss to KC within his weekly (long) Monday column "FMIA" (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/fmia/news/fmia-conference-championships-brock-purdy-delivers-again-to-meet-mahomes-in-super-bowl) (Football Monday in America).

It is an astute analysis and is spot on.

Requiem for the Bills (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/fmia/news/fmia-conference-championships-brock-purdy-delivers-again-to-meet-mahomes-in-super-bowl)


Immediately after a titanic game is not the time to form permanent opinions on what you’ve just seen. I was at the Kansas City-Buffalo game last weekend and covered it from the winner’s angle. During the week, I had time to re-watch the game and consider it from Buffalo’s perspective, and I was left with one overriding question:

Why did the Bills—in the middle of their final, inexorable drive of the game—drastically change their offensive approach at the most critical moment of the season?

To refresh: Buffalo, down 27-24, got the ball back at their 20-, with 8:23 left in the game. The Bills, after a huge miss on a Josh Allen-to-Stefon Diggs bomb (Diggs missed a very catchable ball) on first down, settled into a patient, clock-eating drive, seemingly trying to either tie it or win it and leave KC with very little time left. On seven of the 15 plays on the drive with the clock moving, Allen snapped the ball with an average of 5.1 seconds remaining on the play clock. Efficient, methodical.

So, Buffalo advanced to the Kansas City 26-, at the two-minute warning. Second-and-9. Two timeouts left per team. And here’s where the line of demarcation came. The Bills had to know they were either:



One first down away from moving closer for a Tyler Bass field-goal try inside the 35-yard line that could have tied the game and sent it to overtime;
Or one first down away from scoring a touchdown with very little time left, and leaving KC needing a touchdown, likely on a long field, to win. It was vital, with how great Patrick Mahomes is down the stretch and in the clutch, to give him next-to-no time to do that.


The Bills had to know on any play that ended with the clock running, Kansas City would burn its second timeout, and then its third. So, the strategy for Buffalo was: under all circumstances, get a first down and keep the clock running. Allen—second-and-9, KC 26-, 2:00 left—surveyed the defense as he prepared to take the snap.

Second down: With a wide-open receiver running a crossing route at the KC 22- and an open receiver running an out-route at the 16-, Allen chose to try to hit Khalil Shakir in the back of the trafficky end zone. Overthrown.

Third down: Allen got chased out of the pocket to the right, and probably missed seeing two intermediate receivers shy of the first down to the left. He threw the ball away, deep.

Fourth down: Bass pushed a 44-yard field-goal attempt wide right. The Chiefs, never having to use one of their timeouts in the fourth quarter, won 27-24.

Allen, on this drive, had flipped and thrown and side-armed completions of 7, 4, 8, 10, 6 and 7 yards. And needing a first down here, he went gunslinger. I just don’t know why. Kurt Warner, one who would know, tried to explain it a few days after the game.

“Sometimes,” Warner said, “you talk yourself into a play and say, ‘I’m gonna make this play, and this is the throw that’ll send us to the championship game,’ instead of saying, ‘I’m gonna let the defense dictate where I throw the ball.’ As a quarterback, you have to have the ability to balance those things.”

I thought Warner put it best on Allen in this game, and Allen as a player. He said, “It’s impossible to play perfect games, and Josh played an incredible game—until the end. In the end, he took some chances that wouldn’t have been what I would have done. But he chose to make those throws, and if you choose those throws, you’ve got to make ‘em. That’s part of being great. Brady, Montana, Mahomes—they have careers of making the plays in the absolute crucial times of the game. Now they’re on the Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks.”

Allen is just six years into his career. He’s got much of his NFL life in front of him. He’s a smart guy. He’s one of the most talented quarterbacks ever to play in the NFL. He’s going to have plenty of chances to go deep into the playoffs, and to win a Super Bowl. But this is a crucial lesson he must learn, or he may never hold the Lombardi Trophy.



I (along with others) have been observing the same reality (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/264951-Bills-officially-interviewing-Joe-Brady-for-full-time-OC-position?p=5080285&viewfull=1#post5080285). The decisions made by Josh (and possibly...we just don't know...Joe Brady) after the 2 min warning break were head scratchingly stupid.

I put 80%-90% of the blame on Josh because HE is handling the ball, and HE makes the final decision on what to do with it. His mindset should have been....run the clock...take what the defense gives you...FORCE KC TO USE THEIR TIMEOUTS.

Kurt Warner (who Peter King appropriately observes is "one who would know") tried to explain the mental part of the game in these moments.

Josh is (IMO) the greatest QB the Bills have ever had...he may have the most unique qualities of any QB in history and is certainly capable of winning multiple championships.....and I do not want ANY other QB for my team.

BUT, as I have said before (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/261680-The-Bills-Have-a-QB-Problem?highlight=) "Josh Allen is THE reason the Bills are considered a legitimate Super Bowl contender, and Josh Allen will be THE reason they don’t even get there, much less win it."

He may not win a Lombardi until he learns these crucial mindset lessons. <style>@font-face {font-family:Wingdings; panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:2; mso-generic-font-family:decorative; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 268435456 0 0 -2147483647 0;}@font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1107305727 0 0 415 0;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073732485 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1593833729 1073750107 16 0 415 0;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:#222222;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:#0563C1; mso-themecolor:hyperlink; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;}a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; color:#954F72; mso-themecolor:followedhyperlink; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;}p {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.5pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.5pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Verdana; color:#222222; mso-font-kerning:0pt; mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}ol {margin-bottom:0in;}ul {margin-bottom:0in;}</style>

[sahlensguy]

When? Probably when he's broke.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

When? Probably when he's broke.

Sooooooo never?

[Typ0]

Well McDermott would never sit his ass down when it was prudent and he would sit down a fly that landed on the ball for 8 weeks ....

Maybe he should manage him a little more as opposed to kiss his ass all the time.

[Ingtar33]

i disagree with kurt on the 2nd down. I've watched that play a couple of times from various angles, and the reality is, it was a high-low read, meaning he was reading deep then short; he saw shakir, shakir was about as open as they come on a seam route, and he threw it. a pass he's completely countless times against countless teams including the chiefs. he get hit hard in the middle of his motion. I just can't blame him on that one.

the third down is a little muddier, he had 2 receivers about 3-5 yards short of the first down he could have thrown it to, but he wanted the first down, and while Kincade might have been able to get it, he would have had to run someone over to do it. I actually think what happened on that play was Allen didn't want a 3 yard comletion and drive ended, so he disregarded the underneath options, and then he had a miscommunication with diggs. diggs was covered on his initial route. but with how the coverage was shifting with his scramble, if diggs ran toward allen he was 100% open with a huge throwing lane, for an easy completion at the 5-10 for a first down, and allen's eyes clearly locked onto diggs. however instead of running at allen, diggs ran into the endzone which incidentally ran him right into coverage again. Once diggs did that allen looked for other options, and no one was open anymore. he didn't throw it deep into the endzone, he threw the ball away entirely. he didn't want to mess up the FG with a sack, or throw an INT, he was being safe and just tossed the ball away.

if he had any fault on that sequence it was probably not taking the checkdown to kincade. i know he blames himself for the 2nd down because had he stepped to the side he doesn't get hit by his OT, but i think that's just hindsight. just like diggs being open underneath is hindsight. the fault in my book was being a little greedy for the first down on 3rd.

[Oaf]

First read on 2nd down was Kincaid, Ing. Very complete-able out route (watch the TV replay behind QB) for 10yds. Shakir may've been after that.

I agree with the total analysis from PK, but there's one omission. Good coaching comes into play and saves players from themselves. It's as much on McD and JB here to not reiterate the winning strategy during the 2min timeout, or to not do so effectively enough for JA.

[Typ0]

Good coaching comes into play and saves players from themselves.


This is the issue we have ... and it stems from McDermott not being able to save himself from himself. He is far too hypocritically bias and can't put together good evidence to redirect his own bias. He constantly falls victim to it. His systems have it running through their veins.

Allen is like inside an impenetrable optimism zone with McDermott that other players do not have access to -- he can't manage Allen effectively.

[sahlensguy]

When? Probably when he's broke.


Sooooooo never?

I mean, would you?

[Typ0]

i disagree with kurt on the 2nd down. I've watched that play a couple of times from various angles, and the reality is, it was a high-low read, meaning he was reading deep then short; he saw shakir, shakir was about as open as they come on a seam route, and he threw it. a pass he's completely countless times against countless teams including the chiefs. he get hit hard in the middle of his motion. I just can't blame him on that one.

the third down is a little muddier, he had 2 receivers about 3-5 yards short of the first down he could have thrown it to, but he wanted the first down, and while Kincade might have been able to get it, he would have had to run someone over to do it. I actually think what happened on that play was Allen didn't want a 3 yard comletion and drive ended, so he disregarded the underneath options, and then he had a miscommunication with diggs. diggs was covered on his initial route. but with how the coverage was shifting with his scramble, if diggs ran toward allen he was 100% open with a huge throwing lane, for an easy completion at the 5-10 for a first down, and allen's eyes clearly locked onto diggs. however instead of running at allen, diggs ran into the endzone which incidentally ran him right into coverage again. Once diggs did that allen looked for other options, and no one was open anymore. he didn't throw it deep into the endzone, he threw the ball away entirely. he didn't want to mess up the FG with a sack, or throw an INT, he was being safe and just tossed the ball away.

if he had any fault on that sequence it was probably not taking the checkdown to kincade. i know he blames himself for the 2nd down because had he stepped to the side he doesn't get hit by his OT, but i think that's just hindsight. just like diggs being open underneath is hindsight. the fault in my book was being a little greedy for the first down on 3rd.

All the second guessing. How about they try and run the ball on 2nd or 3rd down. That is my question about the whole thing ... but I don't so much question the play calls or what happened on the field. We needed to score 7 points. Honestly, it sounds like that is where everyone was at ... but they screwed up when they settled for 3. That is where I start getting lost. So going for the end zone because you see 7 as tantamount to W that also means you aren't kicking that field goal. Because you are trading the 4 points off for not being able to manage the clock as well because you are putting that TD on the board and that is how you see it.

And when it comes into light the TD has to be your goal and Josh Allen is your Quarterback why isn't he running the football on one of those downs?

So the players could have executed differently and there could have been different results but I would say it was all a set up based in marginal coaching in some areas.

[sahlensguy]

All the second guessing. How about they try and run the ball on 2nd or 3rd down. That is my question about the whole thing ... but I don't so much question the play calls or what happened on the field. We needed to score 7 points. Honestly, it sounds like that is where everyone was at ... but they screwed up when they settled for 3. That is where I start getting lost. So going for the end zone because you see 7 as tantamount to W that also means you aren't kicking that field goal. Because you are trading the 4 points off for not being able to manage the clock as well because you are putting that TD on the board and that is how you see it.

And when it comes into light the TD has to be your goal and Josh Allen is your Quarterback why isn't he running the football on one of those downs?

So the players could have executed differently and there could have been different results but I would say it was all a set up based in marginal coaching in some areas.

We didn't need to just score seven points. We needed a score seven points while burning as much clock as possible.

Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[imbondz]

Dude was wide open in the end zone. Josh missed the throw. Let’s say we do what King says and tie the game, then KC wins in OT. We would have been pissed Josh didn’t find the wide open receiver in the endzone. But yes I agree we should have done what King says. lol

[Thurmal]

Hahaha, like a 10,000 word column where Allen is criticized for trying to throw to an open WR in the end zone, only to have his tackle pushed into him at the last second, and absolutely ZERO criticism for Lamar Jackson, who was abysmal yet again in the playoffs. They way those two are treated by the media couldn't be more unequal.

[Typ0]

We didn't need to just score seven points. We needed a score seven points while burning as much clock as possible.

Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Well yeah in a perfect world you burn all the clock too. But that wasn't their strategy obviously when they weren't burning the clock.

You need the TD though no matter what you do to force Mahomes to get into the end zone which can help your defense a lot.

What good is a field goal other than you couldn't score a TD and the clock is about to run out? I mean, what good is a tie score with 90 seconds on the clock and giving the ball to Mahomes to run the clock out (like you are saying we should have done) and kick a game winning field-goal?

There just isn't sound thinking going on in these situations you can tell when you don't just listen to a bunch of spin and excuses and see **** doesn't add up.

[sahlensguy]

Hahaha, like a 10,000 word column where Allen is criticized for trying to throw to an open WR in the end zone, only to have his tackle pushed into him at the last second, and absolutely ZERO criticism for Lamar Jackson, who was abysmal yet again in the playoffs. They way those two are treated by the media couldn't be more unequal.

It was a poorly written article. Ive seen better and more concise rants around here.

[sahlensguy]

Well yeah in a perfect world you burn all the clock too. But that wasn't their strategy obviously when they weren't burning the clock.

You need the TD though no matter what you do to force Mahomes to get into the end zone which can help your defense a lot.

What good is a field goal other than you couldn't score a TD and the clock is about to run out? I mean, what good is a tie score with 90 seconds on the clock and giving the ball to Mahomes to run the clock out (like you are saying we should have done) and kick a game winning field-goal?

There just isn't sound thinking going on in these situations you can tell when you don't just listen to a bunch of spin and excuses and see **** doesn't add up.

The strategy was illconceived on numerous levels. It wasn't good enough and they got what they deserved.

[Typ0]

Lamar Jackson wasted several possessions just tossing bombs downfield trying to get a big play. That's something the coaches did. I don't know what the hell they were doing but they did it.

[Typ0]

The strategy was illconceived on numerous levels. It wasn't good enough and they got what they deserved.

You aren't going to beat Andy Reid and Patrick Mahommes with that kind of stuff and quite honestly, you are making them look a lot better than they are too because they are a hell of a lot smarter than you are.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Why did the Bills—in the middle of their final, inexorable drive of the game—drastically change their offensive approach at the most critical moment of the season?

BECAUSE McD is a ****ing CHICKEN.

Thats why.

[Mace]

I still can't blame Allen much. They've had six years to build a savage offense around him... they've porked around with the ol, receivers and backs...and it's still his fault no matter what he does.

No. It's on staff and personnel it's ridiculous we haven't maximized a franchise qb and it's his fault he couldn't carry them farther with receivers that can,t catch.

Yeah, bounce another ball off the open guy and let's pretend he'll really catch it this time.

[YardRat]

Been asking that question since after 13 seconds.

[sahlensguy]

I still can't blame Allen much. They've had six years to build a savage offense around him... they've porked around with the ol, receivers and backs...and it's still his fault no matter what he does.

No. It's on staff and personnel it's ridiculous we haven't maximized a franchise qb and it's his fault he couldn't carry them farther with receivers that can,t catch.

Yeah, bounce another ball off the open guy and let's pretend he'll really catch it this time.

Allen could have thrown to prime Jerry Rice out of the 2:00 warning for a TD and it still would have been dumb, dumb, dumb.

[sahlensguy]

You aren't going to beat Andy Reid and Patrick Mahommes with that kind of stuff and quite honestly, you are making them look a lot better than they are too because they are a hell of a lot smarter than you are.

The Chiefs are the new Patriots. Opponents will curl up when it matters most and do stupid ****.

[Typ0]

The Chiefs are the new Patriots. Opponents will curl up when it matters most and do stupid ****.

Hey it wasn't long prior they gave us the game fumbling that ball through the end zone. We were kinda toast at that point and got a whole lot of life and should have stolen it away.

[Typ0]

Allen could have thrown to prime Jerry Rice out of the 2:00 warning for a TD and it still would have been dumb, dumb, dumb.

Don't you think it is kinda too hard to score a TD to think you can do it at any moment you want? I think if you are trying to coach through this situation you really have to consider that. Yes, prudence is really important ... but if you are letting the clock run down you are playing for a tie which is probably not the right approach. So I can see putting the TD on the board and think it is a pretty big ask to score at will against one of the better defenses in the league.

[sahlensguy]

Don't you think it is kinda too hard to score a TD to think you can do it at any moment you want? I think if you are trying to coach through this situation you really have to consider that. Yes, prudence is really important ... but if you are letting the clock run down you are playing for a tie which is probably not the right approach. So I can see putting the TD on the board and think it is a pretty big ask to score at will against one of the better defenses in the league.

It was only 2nd down, in FG position. A late second FG was the fail safe position. Knowing that, work the clock down with perhaps a couple of keepers with Josh and if that doesn't pick up the 1st down, decide what to do on 4th down. There's time and snaps to try to get a TD. Doing so on the 1st snap after the the T.O. is so premature.

[Typ0]

It was only 2nd down, in FG position. A late second FG was the fail safe position. Knowing that, work the clock down with perhaps a couple of keepers with Josh and if that doesn't pick up the 1st down, decide what to do on 4th down. There's time and snaps to try to get a TD. Doing so on the 1st snap after the the T.O. is so premature.

yeah well that may be the case but it looked like it shoulda worked. I wish they understood it was 4 down territory and ran the ball too. It would have been nice to have won that game.

[sahlensguy]

yeah well that may be the case but it looked like it shoulda worked. I wish they understood it was 4 down territory and ran the ball too. It would have been nice to have won that game.

Only one team can win, so just giving it your best shot would be great.

It's not wether you win or lose, it's how you play the game.

And we both can agree that we didn't give ourselves the best chance to beat them.

[Historian]

Why did the Bills—in the middle of their final, inexorable drive of the game—drastically change their offensive approach at the most critical moment of the season?

BECAUSE McD is a ****ing CHICKEN.

Thats why.

Sooo.....when he runs the ball, and Allen only throws for 179 yards....he's a chicken?

When he plays for the FG....he's a chicken?

When he throws to the end zone for the go-ahead score....he's a chicken?

Sorry, it can't be both.

Please explain your thinking.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Sooo.....when he runs the ball, and Allen only throws for 179 yards....he's a chicken?

When he plays for the FG....he's a chicken?

When he throws to the end zone for the go-ahead score....he's a chicken?

Sorry, it can't be both.

Please explain your thinking.

No guts, no glory.

I've explained my rationale countless times.

I've watched EVERY GAME of the McD era. He's an ass-coverer. When the pressure is on, he will ALWAYS choose the option that will bring him the LEAST amount of criticism if it fails.

We need a coach that likes to win more than he's afraid to lose.

The team recognizes that.

Think about it.

When was the last time we said "Boy, did McD ever make the other guy look like a fool!"?

Can't remember a single time.

Can you?

[imbondz]

Yes there’s been times when McDermott coaches a great game like the first Miami game and Dallas game. The problem is he’s inconsistent and folds when under playoff pressure.

[Typ0]

Sooo.....when he runs the ball, and Allen only throws for 179 yards....he's a chicken?

When he plays for the FG....he's a chicken?

When he throws to the end zone for the go-ahead score....he's a chicken?

Sorry, it can't be both.

Please explain your thinking.

The thing is we have seen signs of McDermott maybe learning and moving forward but it always ends up being undermined by more of the same....so yes it can be both. It's just a matter of McDermott's own lack of humility incapacitates him from really engaging in the growth mindset he is trying to get everyone to engage in. He then shoots himself in the foot with his fear which in turn shoots the whole team in the foot because he's the head coach.

Throwing into the EZ for the go ahead score is chicken because you need some time off the clock but you are AFRAID you won't be able to score a TD later so you take it now....

Then turning around and playing for the tie is also chicken because it loses the game but looks like the thing a responsible coach would do.

Running the ball is not chicken....but bailing on that when the going got rough was chicken. We really could have used one of those runs to maybe get to 4th and 3 as opposed to 4th and 9.

There just is a lot of missing mindfulness going on with McDermott he's convinced of his own BS and it's not going to get better when people keep telling him how great he is and kissing his ass so he has the ass kissing energy to turn around and kiss Allen's ass.

It's no wonder our team is soft and looks like they can't execute -- it has all been set up by the narcissist at the top who beats up his players with his excuses....and they don't even know or understand the effects they are just trying to do their individual jobs.

[sahlensguy]

The thing is we have seen signs of McDermott maybe learning and moving forward but it always ends up being undermined by more of the same....so yes it can be both. It's just a matter of McDermott's own lack of humility incapacitates him from really engaging in the growth mindset he is trying to get everyone to engage in. He then shoots himself in the foot with his fear which in turn shoots the whole team in the foot because he's the head coach.

Throwing into the EZ for the go ahead score is chicken because you need some time off the clock but you are AFRAID you won't be able to score a TD later so you take it now....

Then turning around and playing for the tie is also chicken because it loses the game but looks like the thing a responsible coach would do.

Running the ball is not chicken....but bailing on that when the going got rough was chicken. We really could have used one of those runs to maybe get to 4th and 3 as opposed to 4th and 9.

There just is a lot of missing mindfulness going on with McDermott he's convinced of his own BS and it's not going to get better when people keep telling him how great he is and kissing his ass so he has the ass kissing energy to turn around and kiss Allen's ass.

It's no wonder our team is soft and looks like they can't execute -- it has all been set up by the narcissist at the top who beats up his players with his excuses....and they don't even know or understand the effects they are just trying to do their individual jobs.

It's also not going to get better while McD is riding Josh's coat tails to $8.5 mil/yr.

[Typ0]

It's also not going to get better while McD is riding Josh's coat tails to $8.5 mil/yr.

Exactly. They can sit around and jerk each other off about how great they are and all the excuses that don't involve their own actions that incapacitate them from obtaining a championship -- because what makes them great is people buy into them and give them the $$$ in the first place not what their accomplishments on the field are.

[sahlensguy]

Exactly. They can sit around and jerk each other off about how great they are and all the excuses that don't involve their own actions that incapacitate them from obtaining a championship -- because what makes them great is people buy into them and give them the $$$ in the first place not what their accomplishments on the field are.

It takes real change for McD to become a championship level coach. Like have fire in the belly when it's all on the line. He plays it safe and will always play it safe and teams like the Chiefs will take his lunch in big moments even when they are not playing their A-game.

Why would he change?

He's secure in his position, thanks to Josh.

[notacon]

Hahaha, like a 10,000 word column where Allen is criticized for trying to throw to an open WR in the end zone, only to have his tackle pushed into him at the last second, and absolutely ZERO criticism for Lamar Jackson, who was abysmal yet again in the playoffs. They way those two are treated by the media couldn't be more unequal.


Except that is not 100% accurate.

There was this...



So many Baltimore errors, many of them so, so careless—and many by veterans. Kyle Van Noy, trusted 10-year vet, head-butting Travis Kelce for a penalty. Lamar Jackson, throwing a fourth-quarter pick into triple-coverage. Defensive leader Roquan Smith barreling into the KC line early for an unnecessary-roughness call, handing Kansas City a gift first down on the last series of the game. Jadeveon Clowney, with a big 15-yard roughing hit on Mahomes. And then, of course, the Zay Flowers stuff. A dumb taunting call late in the third quarter. And 10 inches from the goal line on the first play of the fourth quarter, fumbling away Baltimore’s best chance to get back in the game. “He didn’t have to extend the ball,” said one viewer, Sauce Gardner, on social media.


Jackson has been and will continue to get criticized for being "abysmal yet again in the playoffs". Except he was anything but that in the Houston game.

The story that cannot be ignored is that the Bills have been knocked out of the playoffs by KC three times. Despite the (mostly) stellar play of Josh Allen.

What happened in the last two minutes of a game that the Bills were in perfect position to win is ripe for closer looks.

I reject the idea that the way "those two are treated by the media couldn't be more unequal". Lamar has been criticized over and over and over again for his playing style (a RB who throws the ball and not a QB who runs the ball) and opinions that without his running ability is s 2nd tier QB.

Josh has correctly been lionized as a freak of nature and almost single handily rises Buffalo into contention year after year.

The GLARING OBSTACLE is KC, and the fact that only two QB's have been able to beat Mahomes in the playoffs. And what does Josh Allen have to do to get over that monumental hump???

The analysis by Kurt Warner and Peter King is spot on!

In any event, Josh's decision on that 2nd down play was terrible.

It's irrelevant that Shakir was (supposedly) wide open. The game situation should have been RUN THE CLOCK!!!! MAKE KC TAKE their time outs.

Besides the fact that Shakir was NOT "wide open". Not even close. DIGGS WAS. Here are two screen shots from the ALL-22 replay at a moment before Josh lets the ball go and while it's in the air (next post)....

The second before Josh throws the ball...

20148

Diggs is WIDE OPEN. NO ONE within SIX YARDS. He's at the 23 and would have probably easily gotten the first down. Shakir is DOUBLE TEAMED outside the end zone

A moment after the ball is release (you can see it in the air)....Diggs is even MORE wide open, with the left side cleared out....and Kincaid in perfect position to block the defender on him, making the first down EASY PICKINGS.

See next post...can only upload one image per post....

[notacon]

The ball is IN THE AIR at this moment.....

20149

Shakir is STILL DOUBLE TEAMED, and NOT "wide open".

Diggs IS "WIDE OPEN" and would have easily gotten the first down. Putting the Bills in an even more perfect situation to win the game!!

RUN THE CLOCK. Make KC take their second time out. Get closer to make a game tying FG much easier if needed.

Instead, the clock stopped at 1:55. Ran only FIVE seconds off the clock.

Third down missed pass took only EIGHT seconds off the cloak.

Missed FG from 44 yards leaving 1:47 left. The Bills had the ball on the Chiefs 26 yards line, second down and only 2 minutes left.

Instead of playing it smart, Josh tried HERO BALL and got stung in the ass AGAIN!!!!

Even if Diggs did not get the NINE yards for first down, and the Bills fail to get it on third down (which is silly....if Diggs did not get the first he would probably get within a yard (8 yard gain)...and then a Josh sneak gets the first)....but, for argument ts sake lets say he does get it, but rather is a yard short.


That means a THIRTY SIX yard FG try instead of 44.

And please, stop blaming the coaches. The ball is in JOSH'S HANDS. HE decides where to throw it. JOSH could have (and should have) had the mindset of RUN THE CLOCK, and get the Bills in a position to score the wining TD with as little time as possible for the Chiefs and MAKE SURE they use ALL their time outs.

In other words SMART SITUATIONAL FOOTBALL.

Kurt Warner is SPOT ON when he said....

“Sometimes,” Warner said, “you talk yourself into a play and say, ‘I’m gonna make this play, and this is the throw that’ll send us to the championship game,’ instead of saying, ‘I’m gonna let the defense dictate where I throw the ball.’ As a quarterback, you have to have the ability to balance those things.”


When Josh finally learn to think that way, the Bills will have an much better chance at winning a Super Bowl. <style>@font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1107305727 0 0 415 0;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073732485 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1593833729 1073750107 16 0 415 0;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:#222222;}p {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.5pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.5pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Verdana; color:#222222; mso-font-kerning:0pt; mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection</style>

[sahlensguy]

The ball is IN THE AIR at this moment.....

20149

Shakir is STILL DOUBLE TEAMED, and NOT "wide open".

Diggs IS "WIDE OPEN" and would have easily gotten the first down. Putting the Bills in an even more perfect situation to win the game!!

RUN THE CLOCK. Make KC take their second time out. Get closer to make a game tying FG much easier if needed.

Instead, the clock stopped at 1:55. Ran only FIVE seconds off the clock.

Third down missed pass took only EIGHT seconds off the cloak.

Missed FG from 44 yards leaving 1:47 left. The Bills had the ball on the Chiefs 26 yards line, second down and only 2 minutes left.

Instead of playing it smart, Josh tried HERO BALL and got stung in the ass AGAIN!!!!

Even if Diggs did not get the NINE yards for first down, and the Bills fail to get it on third down (which is silly....if Diggs did not get the first he would probably get within a yard (8 yard gain)...and then a Josh sneak gets the first)....but, for argument ts sake lets say he does get it, but rather is a yard short.


That means a THIRTY SIX yard FG try instead of 44.

And please, stop blaming the coaches. The ball is in JOSH'S HANDS. HE decides where to throw it. JOSH could have (and should have) had the mindset of RUN THE CLOCK, and get the Bills in a position to score the wining TD with as little time as possible for the Chiefs and MAKE SURE they use ALL their time outs.

In other words SMART SITUATIONAL FOOTBALL.

Kurt Warner is SPOT ON when he said....

“Sometimes,” Warner said, “you talk yourself into a play and say, ‘I’m gonna make this play, and this is the throw that’ll send us to the championship game,’ instead of saying, ‘I’m gonna let the defense dictate where I throw the ball.’ As a quarterback, you have to have the ability to balance those things.”


When Josh finally learn to think that way, the Bills will have an much better chance at winning a Super Bowl. <style>@font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1107305727 0 0 415 0;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073732485 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1593833729 1073750107 16 0 415 0;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:#222222;}p {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.5pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.5pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Verdana; color:#222222; mso-font-kerning:0pt; mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection</style>

McD absolutely is to blame. Why would he not at least share it? The players don't play in a vacuum and this play wasn't in a vacuum.

The Shakir wlthrow directly followed the timeout. The 2:00 warning is a time for the team to collect themselves, which then let's them play closer to their true nature. McD had two years since 13 seconds to instill in them and Allen the importance of situational awareness. He taught nothing and they learned nothing. Allen threw that like a rookie (but not all rookies) would. And it's a big black eye on McD.

[notacon]

When you watch the end zone view of the All-22, it's obvious that Josh never even looked at Diggs....he ALREADY DECIDED to go into the end zone....just like Kurt Warner surmised his mindset.

The third down play was just as bad.

Shakir is WIDE OPEN on the left side at the 20 yard line about two yards from the first down, with the defender SIX YARDS AWAY and running away from what would have been an easy first down (before Josh bails out of the pocket)

Josh never looked (obvious in the end zone view) his way. It was obvious he was STILL trying HERO BALL and a TD.



20150

[notacon]

McD absolutely is to blame. Why would he not at least share it? The players don't play in a vacuum and this play wasn't in a vacuum.

The Shakir wlthrow directly followed the timeout. The 2:00 warning is a time for the team to collect themselves, which then let's them play closer to their true nature. McD had two years since 13 seconds to instill in them and Allen the importance of situational awareness. He taught nothing and they learned nothing. Allen threw that like a rookie (but not all rookies) would. And it's a big black eye on McD.


Nope.

I already said it was probably 80% Josh's fault and 20% coaches.

Josh has the ball in HIS HANDS. HE MAKES THE DECISION WHEN AND WHERE TO LET IT GO!!!

Kurt Warner is SPOT ON (and he knows about this from experience), and too many fans want to give Josh a pass and continue their (per-determined) ****ting over McD.

I don't buy it.

[sahlensguy]

When you watch the end zone view of the All-22, it's obvious that Josh never even looked at Diggs....he ALREADY DECIDED to go into the end zone....just like Kurt Warner surmised his mindset.

The third down play was just as bad.

Shakir is WIDE OPEN on the left side at the 20 yard line about two yards from the first down, with the defender SIX YARDS AWAY and running away from what would have been an easy first down (before Josh bails out of the pocket)

Josh never looked (obvious in the end zone view) his way. It was obvious he was STILL trying HERO BALL and a TD.



20150

Yes. He threw it like many rookies would in that situation. So? That does not excuse MCD for sharing the blame of that throw in that situation.

[notacon]

Yes. He threw it like many rookies would in that situation. So? That does not excuse MCD for sharing the blame of that throw in that situation.
You are just too dug into your McD hatred to see what's right in front of you.

[sahlensguy]

Nope.

I already said it was probably 80% Josh's fault and 20% coaches.

Josh has the ball in HIS HANDS. HE MAKES THE DECISION WHEN AND WHERE TO LET IT GO!!!

Kurt Warner is SPOT ON (and he knows about this from experience), and too many fans want to give Josh a pass and continue their (per-determined) ****ting over McD.

I don't buy it.

Well you did say: And please, stop blaming the coaches.

McD gets way more blame for 20% of the blame for that throw. It is in Josh's nature to do it but Josh and the team still takes on the mentality of the head coach. Look at the Lions. And it was a dumb throw and McD is a dumb coach in big moments. The blame is more like 59/50. It's not Josh's 1st year anymore under MvD after all.

[sahlensguy]

You are just too dug into your McD hatred to see what's right in front of you.

You are stuck on the one play. What is in front of both of us is the big picture which had a lot to do with the one play. And the big picture says more about McD's weakness than what happened on that final series.

[notacon]

Well you did say: And please, stop blaming the coaches.

McD gets way more blame for 20% of the blame for that throw. It is in Josh's nature to do it but Josh and the team still takes on the mentality of the head coach. Look at the Lions. And it was a dumb throw and McD is a dumb coach in big moments. The blame is more like 59/50. It's not Josh's 1st year anymore under MvD after all.


:rofl: Yeah...McD is to blame Josh throwing the ball?!?!?! :rofl:

Do you realize how dumb that is????

It's like blaming Taylor Swift (or the NFL "rigging" the game) for Baltimore losing to KC in the AFCCG. :rofl:

[notacon]

You are stuck on the one play. What is in front of both of us is the big picture which had a lot to do with the one play. And the big picture says more about McD's weakness than what happened on that final series.


Because that play (and the next play that was just as dumb on Josh's part), in large part decided the game.

The final series was going fantastic taking 6:23 off the clock and putting the Bills in PERFECT position to run the clock and win the game....

UNTIL Josh goes into hero mode.

Kurt Warner is SPOT ON. And he knows. He's been there. What NFL teams have you played on?!?!? :rofl:

[sahlensguy]

Yes. He threw it like many rookies would in that situation. So? That does not excuse MCD for sharing the blame of that throw in that situation.


:rofl: Yeah...McD is to blame Josh throwing the ball?!?!?! :rofl:

Do you realize how dumb that is????

It's like blaming Taylor Swift (or the NFL "rigging" the game) for Baltimore losing to KC in the AFCCG. :rofl:

Dumb? What's dumb as you trying to justify your we have a quarterback problem thread, even further.

So if you're going to let the coach off the hook, what do you think he told Josh at the 2-minute morning?

[sahlensguy]

Because that play (and the next play that was just as dumb on Josh's part), in large part decided the game.

The final series was going fantastic taking 6:23 off the clock and putting the Bills in PERFECT position to run the clock and win the game....

UNTIL Josh goes into hero mode.

Kurt Warner is SPOT ON. And he knows. He's been there. What NFL teams have you played on?!?!? :rofl:

Those plays after the 2:00 warning were years in the making.

[notacon]

Funny (and revealing), in another thread that asks the question "If we had a TJ Watt would we win the Super Bowl" (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265012-If-we-had-a-TJ-Watt-would-we-win-the-Super-Bowl) your response was....


Idk. Would he have passed underneath to Diggs?

:rofl: SO, you already accept the undeniable fact that that play, and bad decision by Josh Allen was instrumental in helping to prevent the Bills from winning a SB, and your posts here are more trolling than engaging in a good faith discussion.

I'll leave you to your trolling. I've made my point with irrefutable logic and evidence and watching you flail in a lame attempt to refute it (and failing) has it's limits of amusement.

[sahlensguy]

Funny (and revealing), in another thread that asks the question "If we had a TJ Watt would we win the Super Bowl" (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265012-If-we-had-a-TJ-Watt-would-we-win-the-Super-Bowl) your response was....



:rofl: SO, you already accept the undeniable fact that that play, and bad decision by Josh Allen was instrumental in helping to prevent the Bills from winning a SB, and your posts here are more trolling than engaging in a good faith discussion.

I'll leave you to your trolling. I've made my point with irrefutable logic and evidence and watching you flail in a lame attempt to refute it (and failing) has it's limits of amusement.

That's your evidence of a troll job? A super sleuth you ain't.

Again, that play and decision was not in a vacuum, and had a variety of supporting actors. It was years in the making and I'm sorry if that reality doesn't validate your position.

And I noticed that you avoided my question of what do you think McD told Josh at the 2-minute warning. Want to answer?

[Typ0]

UNTIL Josh goes into hero mode.



What you are missing in the entirety of your argument in this thread is McDermott's responsibility in Allen going into hero mode. It is his responsibility to correct it and it is not getting corrected.

[Typ0]

The other thing about that play is why is it even on the table? Is Josh Allen calling plays?

- - - Updated - - -

I would really like to know the answer to that. Someone hack into their radio communications.

[sahlensguy]

The other thing about that play is why is it even on the table? Is Josh Allen calling plays?

- - - Updated - - -

I would really like to know the answer to that. Someone hack into their radio communications.

This is what I'm getting at when I ask noticon what does he think McD told Allen at the time out.

I don't know if he's going to answer. It will make his We have a quarterback problem thread look bad.

[Typ0]

This is what I'm getting at when I ask noticon what does he think McD told Allen at the time out.

I don't know if he's going to answer. It will make his We have a quarterback problem thread look bad.

Personally, I think if Notty had hacked into their radio communications and knew anything about it a transcription would be pasted all over the place here with cherry picked piece by piece out of context pro notty vomit.

[Historian]

No guts, no glory.

I've explained my rationale countless times.

I've watched EVERY GAME of the McD era. He's an ass-coverer. When the pressure is on, he will ALWAYS choose the option that will bring him the LEAST amount of criticism if it fails.

We need a coach that likes to win more than he's afraid to lose.

The team recognizes that.

Think about it.

When was the last time we said "Boy, did McD ever make the other guy look like a fool!"?

Can't remember a single time.

Can you?

Both Miami games this year.

[DetoxTent]

Why did the Bills—in the middle of their final, inexorable drive of the game—drastically change their offensive approach at the most critical moment of the season?

BECAUSE McD is a ****ing CHICKEN.

Thats why.

No sir. It's because the NFL is fixed. The Bills were told to do that.

[DetoxTent]

You are just too dug into your McD hatred to see what's right in front of you.

Look in the mirror to see the poster with the "...too dug in..." problem.

[YardRat]

Great play design, for the spot on the field.
Great play call, for the circumstances of the game.
Josh ****ed up and threw it to the wrong guy.

It's that simple.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Both Miami games this year.

So, all the Bills losses are Josh and the teams fault and all the wins can be credited to McD?

You're willing to demonize our best player and ruin his career to support a guy with nothing to his credit other than a history of choking?

Man, with "fans" like you....

[YardRat]

So, all the Bills losses are Josh and the teams fault and all the wins can be credited to McD?

You're willing to demonize our best player and ruin his career to support a guy with nothing to his credit other than a history of choking?

Man, with "fans" like you....

Unfortunately, that's the same dude.

[jamze132]

No one here wants to give any credit to KC simply having a great defense.

KC has dominated the AFC for close to six years. Must be McDermott’s fault Mahomes is soooo good. Maybe Beane shouldn’t have traded the pick to KC in the first place.

[Typ0]

The coach sat there and said his goal was to build a team to beat the Chiefs a few years ago. That is the coaches goal. He had a nice excuse last year when he got thumped by the Bengals "they aren't the Chiefs". Well this year there is no excuse. The bottom line is the goal is to beat the Chiefs and he isn't able to do it -- and I would say it is his own damn fault because the games aren't being managed correctly the team doesn't close.

He doesn't change. He does work to cover things up pretty well though ... but the evidence is there we are riding on the same train wreck if we go forward....

Remember what George Bush said ... Fool me once shame on you .... fool me twice ... awe heck don't keep trying to fool me I can't handle it.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Unfortunately, that's the same dude.

Josh doesn't call the plays, he makes his mistakes trying to rescue them.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Ask yourself this.

If you were the owner of a team that needed a head coach and a qb and you had the opportunity to acquire either Josh or McD, who would you choose?

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Ask yourself this.

If you were the owner of a team that needed a head coach and a qb and you had the opportunity to acquire either Josh or McD, who would you choose?
Bart Starr

aka Nathan peterman

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Ask yourself this.

If you were the owner of a team that needed a head coach and a qb and you had the opportunity to acquire either Josh or McD, who would you choose?

In all seriousness though, yes McDermott is a problem. I do agree that he’s likely hit his ceiling

[CommissarSpartacus]

Bart Starr

aka Nathan peterman

Dude still has a job.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Dude still has a job.

I have no effing clue how are why but yes, you are correct

[notacon]

Great play design, for the spot on the field.
Great play call, for the circumstances of the game.
Josh ****ed up and threw it to the wrong guy.

It's that simple.
You just validated my premise perfectly.

It's obvious that coaches can do only so much. When it comes down to it, players make plays.

Anyone who is or has been a parent to a teenager knows exactly how similar the situation is.

[JoeMama]

Just gonna throw this out there for forum consumption:

How many Super Bowl rings to you think Allen would have if Andy Reid was his coach?

[jamze132]

Just gonna throw this out there for forum consumption:

How many Super Bowl rings to you think Allen would have if Andy Reid was his coach?

With a healthy defense?

[notacon]

No one here wants to give any credit to KC simply having a great defense.

KC has dominated the AFC for close to six years. Must be McDermott’s fault Mahomes is soooo good. Maybe Beane shouldn’t have traded the pick to KC in the first place.


Yes, KC does have a great defense and they played a very good game.

BUT...JUST WATCH THE TWO LAST PLAYS FROM JOSH ALLEN!!!!

He HAD THE DEFENSE BEAT....BADLY, BOTH TIMES.....and he simply made the wrong decision.

Yes, there are always a LOT of factors that go into one team winning a game. Especially as critical and closely contested as this AFCDG.

YES. Mahomes is sooooo good! THAT"S THE POINT!!!!!


In those critical moments, Mahomes makes the play and hardly EVER ****s up. We all saw exactly what happens when he DOES **** up in those critical moments. There were three in the last time KC lost the AFCCG vs Cincy.

Last play of first half when Mahomes had a brain fart and prevented KC from scoring points at the 1 yards line....at the 6:16 mark....


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nhtkNBDk31A?si=J71p4GwJuFr-s1W-&start=376" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>


This awful fumble.....

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9-1zn6nc_m0?si=3O-PfGLzSXPA2hEo" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

The (pretty much) game ending terrible INT in OT (the two passe before that were just as bad)....



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1EUpUXMnjwQ?si=Y4qVL0YzSvH20IXu" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>


There is a very fine line between elite QB play and CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL ELITE QB PLAY when need the most.

That MOMENT when the QB has to rise to the occasion. Josh simply failed to do so when he could have. HE HAS THE BALL IN HIS HANDS. HE MAKES THE DECISION on what to do with the ball.


Kurt Warner has it spot on....

"“Sometimes,” Warner said, “you talk yourself into a play and say, ‘I’m gonna make this play, and this is the throw that’ll send us to the championship game,’ instead of saying, ‘I’m gonna let the defense dictate where I throw the ball.’ As a quarterback, you have to have the ability to balance those things.”"

"I thought Warner put it best on Allen in this game, and Allen as a player. He said, “It’s impossible to play perfect games, and Josh played an incredible game—until the end. In the end, he took some chances that wouldn’t have been what I would have done. But he chose to make those throws, and if you choose those throws, you’ve got to make ‘em. That’s part of being great. Brady, Montana, Mahomes—they have careers of making the plays in the absolute crucial times of the game. Now they’re on the Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks.”"


Those are the moment when a QB can TRANSCEND and OVERCOME the opposition.

Josh had those moments vs KC. What is so frustrating is that he is EMINENTLY CAPABLE to win a game like vs KC. Does not mean that he never will. In fact I am a firm believer that he most definitely WILL, as opposed to some sour puss "fans" (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/263749-Jets-Week?p=5040036&viewfull=1#post5040036).

[notacon]

Just gonna throw this out there for forum consumption:

How many Super Bowl rings to you think Allen would have if Andy Reid was his coach?


Impossible to answer and rather specious at that.

The FACT remains that Andy Reid was head coach for TWENTY ONE YEARS before he won a Super Bowl.

The difference??? PATRICK MAHOMES!!!

As I have detailed before (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/264044-Is-Josh-Allen-the-very-normal-simple-to-please-man-we-think-he-is?p=5051528&viewfull=1#post5051528), the facts are undeniable.

Another impossible to answer question.....How many Super Bowl rings to you think McD would have if Patrick Mahomes was his QB?

In any event I will answer the two impossible to answer questions....


How many Super Bowl rings to you think Allen would have if Andy Reid was his coach? NONE.


How many Super Bowl rings to you think McD would have if Patrick Mahomes was his QB? At least one....quite possibly two.

[sahlensguy]

You just validated my premise perfectly.

It's obvious that coaches can do only so much. When it comes down to it, players make plays.

Anyone who is or has been a parent to a teenager knows exactly how similar the situation is.

A nature vs nurture expert, are we?

[jamze132]

Yes, KC does have a great defense and they played a very good game.

BUT...JUST WATCH THE TWO LAST PLAYS FROM JOSH ALLEN!!!!

He HAD THE DEFENSE BEAT....BADLY, BOTH TIMES.....and he simply made the wrong decision.

Yes, there are always a LOT of factors that go into one team winning a game. Especially as critical and closely contested as this AFCDG.

YES. Mahomes is sooooo good! THAT"S THE POINT!!!!!


In those critical moments, Mahomes makes the play and hardly EVER ****s up. We all saw exactly what happens when he DOES **** up in those critical moments. There were three in the last time KC lost the AFCCG vs Cincy.

Last play of first half when Mahomes had a brain fart and prevented KC from scoring points at the 1 yards line....at the 6:16 mark....


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nhtkNBDk31A?si=J71p4GwJuFr-s1W-&start=376" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>


This awful fumble.....

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9-1zn6nc_m0?si=3O-PfGLzSXPA2hEo" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

The (pretty much) game ending terrible INT in OT (the two passe before that were just as bad)....



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There is a very fine line between elite QB play and CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL ELITE QB PLAY when need the most.

That MOMENT when the QB has to rise to the occasion. Josh simply failed to do so when he could have. HE HAS THE BALL IN HIS HANDS. HE MAKES THE DECISION on what to do with the ball.


Kurt Warner has it spot on....

"“Sometimes,” Warner said, “you talk yourself into a play and say, ‘I’m gonna make this play, and this is the throw that’ll send us to the championship game,’ instead of saying, ‘I’m gonna let the defense dictate where I throw the ball.’ As a quarterback, you have to have the ability to balance those things.”"

"I thought Warner put it best on Allen in this game, and Allen as a player. He said, “It’s impossible to play perfect games, and Josh played an incredible game—until the end. In the end, he took some chances that wouldn’t have been what I would have done. But he chose to make those throws, and if you choose those throws, you’ve got to make ‘em. That’s part of being great. Brady, Montana, Mahomes—they have careers of making the plays in the absolute crucial times of the game. Now they’re on the Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks.”"


Those are the moment when a QB can TRANSCEND and OVERCOME the opposition.

Josh had those moments vs KC. What is so frustrating is that he is EMINENTLY CAPABLE to win a game like vs KC. Does not mean that he never will. In fact I am a firm believer that he most definitely WILL, as opposed to some sour puss "fans" (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/263749-Jets-Week?p=5040036&viewfull=1#post5040036).

31 other teams don’t have a Mahomes or didn’t have a Brady. Josh is a top 3 QB in this league…but he’s no Mahomes between the ears. But I do think Josh has it in him to win a Super Bowl but it takes an entire team. Pinning the loss on one player is ridiculous.

[Borosai]

Just gonna throw this out there for forum consumption:

How many Super Bowl rings to you think Allen would have if Andy Reid was his coach?

Allen on the Chiefs > 0
Mahomes on the Bills = 0

[YardRat]

Just gonna throw this out there for forum consumption:

How many Super Bowl rings to you think Allen would have if Andy Reid was his coach?

How many would Reid have if Allen was his QB?

This premise has been recently tested, and the results favor the QB not the coach.

[YardRat]

Josh doesn't call the plays, he makes his mistakes trying to rescue them.

When the play call and design presents an opportunity for successful execution there is no need for rescue. Diggs, by design, was wide open.

And Josh absolutely has influence on the play calls, the coaches are a complete non-factor during execution.

[sahlensguy]

When the play call and design presents an opportunity for successful execution there is no need for rescue. Diggs, by design, was wide open.

And Josh absolutely has influence on the play calls, the coaches are a complete non-factor during execution.

Of course coaches can influence execution. That play didn't happen in a vacuum. It took years to develop.

[CommissarSpartacus]

When the play call and design presents an opportunity for successful execution there is no need for rescue. Diggs, by design, was wide open.

And Josh absolutely has influence on the play calls, the coaches are a complete non-factor during execution.

You've totally convinced me.

Josh is the problem.

We need to get rid of him and get a qb that will do what McD tells him to do, because McD is the REAL winner and Josh is the REAL loser!

[DetoxTent]

Josh doesn't call the plays, he makes his mistakes trying to rescue them.
Yeah, this is just you playing devil' advocate, as you do. It's a team game. Much of Diggs not getting open was a failure to have a WR #2 that can get open consistently. That was not happening. Or there was some other reason Gabe Davis was not getting looks. Everyone in the NFL knew, by mid-season, that Allen was giving Diggs 10 targets and Davis 3 in a typical game, so they double covered Diggs. Diggs production went down. Hence more pressure on Allen. The improvement in the running game obscured all this to some degree. A better Gabe Davis (a tall, fast WR #2) would rectify much of this. The Bills should draft Brian Thomas Jr. (https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/bills/jones-get-to-know-lsu-wide-receiver-brian-thomas-jr) in the draft.

[DetoxTent]

When the play call and design presents an opportunity for successful execution there is no need for rescue. Diggs, by design, was wide open.

And Josh absolutely has influence on the play calls, the coaches are a complete non-factor during execution.
Josh misses stuff sometimes. He did there. It's not the first time. He does it often. But ALL QBs do that. Looking at all the current starting QBs in the NFL, who would you rather have? Mahomes misses too. He just has much more confidence in himself in the moment than Josh does. That is the difference between the two. We thought we'd get that from Allen by year 5, but it didn't look like it. However it has given him his celebrity status. Seeing Twitter pics of him this morning golfing with Tom Brady. I wish they'd make him stop that. At least the photo opps until he actually wins something on the football field. And the Bills should pay Peyton Manning anything they want to be Allen's QB coach.

[YardRat]

Of course coaches can influence execution. That play didn't happen in a vacuum. It took years to develop.

Not once the ball is snapped. It's out of their hands completely.

[YardRat]

You've totally convinced me.

Josh is the problem.

We need to get rid of him and get a qb that will do what McD tells him to do, because McD is the REAL winner and Josh is the REAL loser!


He is a big part of it. So is McDermott, never said he wasn't.

Both have appeared to hit their ceiling, and both need to overcome that and grow.

[YardRat]

Josh misses stuff sometimes. He did there. It's not the first time. He does it often. But ALL QBs do that. Looking at all the current starting QBs in the NFL, who would you rather have? Mahomes misses too. He just has much more confidence in himself in the moment than Josh does. That is the difference between the two. We thought we'd get that from Allen by year 5, but it didn't look like it. However it has given him his celebrity status. Seeing Twitter pics of him this morning golfing with Tom Brady. I wish they'd make him stop that. At least the photo opps until he actually wins something on the football field. And the Bills should pay Peyton Manning anything they want to be Allen's QB coach.

Yes, they all do.

The difference is when the stakes are the highest and the lights are the brightest.

[sahlensguy]

Not once the ball is snapped. It's out of their hands completely.

It's not cut and dry like that. Dion Dawkins' butt influanced Allen's throw too but the ball didn't touch it. The play call got Diggs and Shakir open and even Kincaid.

[CommissarSpartacus]

He is a big part of it. So is McDermott, never said he wasn't.

Both have appeared to hit their ceiling, and both need to overcome that and grow.

This is just platitudes.

The fact is, THE PLAY CALL PRECEDES THE PLAY.

The qb can only run it, with all that entails.

[YardRat]

It's not cut and dry like that. Dion Dawkins' butt influanced Allen's throw too but the ball didn't touch it. The play call got Diggs and Shakir open and even Kincaid.

Yes the play call got guys open.

What could the coaches have done differently to prevent Dawkins from getting pushed back and Josh not throwing to Diggs?

Nothing. They are spectators at that point, just like us.

[YardRat]

This is just platitudes.

The fact is, THE PLAY CALL PRECEDES THE PLAY.

The qb can only run it, with all that entails.


The QB has options to change the play completely with an audible...change some of the aspects of the play with checks...and make the decision what to do with the ball in the moment.

It's not platitudes, it's how football works.

[sahlensguy]

Yes the play call got guys open.

What could the coaches have done differently to prevent Dawkins from getting pushed back and Josh not throwing to Diggs?

Nothing. They are spectators at that point, just like us.

I already said that that play was years in the making. What could McD have done differently to give Dawkins the best shot at rising to the moment? Well first, he'd have to stop shrinking in the big moments, himself.

[CommissarSpartacus]

The QB has options to change the play completely with an audible...change some of the aspects of the play with checks...and make the decision what to do with the ball in the moment.


QBs optioning out of plays in general, and especially in crucial situations, has gone the way of the Dodo.

I haven't heard a single reference all year to Josh optioning out of any playcall and calling the play himself.

Have you?

[notacon]

31 other teams don’t have a Mahomes or didn’t have a Brady. Josh is a top 3 QB in this league…but he’s no Mahomes between the ears. But I do think Josh has it in him to win a Super Bowl but it takes an entire team. Pinning the loss on one player is ridiculous.

Jesus. You just don't want to understand, do you?

I'm not "Pinning the loss on one player"....quite the opposite.

The point is that Josh must RISE TO THE OCCASION, and enter that rarefied level of elite championship caliber moment. He HAD that opportunity this game and flubbed it.

Does not mean I "blame" him for the LOSS....I am frustrated for HIM because he he has not learned (yet) the lessons that Kurt Warner articulated impeccably.

Yes, Josh is undoubtedly "a top 3 QB in this league". BUT, as Kurt observed (and he KNOWS from experience)...

“It’s impossible to play perfect games, and Josh played an incredible game—until the end. In the end, he took some chances that wouldn’t have been what I would have done. But he chose to make those throws, and if you choose those throws, you’ve got to make ‘em. That’s part of being great. Brady, Montana, Mahomes—they have careers of making the plays in the absolute crucial times of the game. Now they’re on the Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks.”


Josh has ALL the ability to be on the "Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks". And I believe, eventually, he will. <style>@font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1107305727 0 0 415 0;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073732485 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1593833729 1073750107 16 0 415 0;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:#222222;}p {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.5pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.5pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Verdana; color:#222222; mso-font-kerning:0pt; mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}</style>

[notacon]

Josh misses stuff sometimes. He did there. It's not the first time. He does it often. But ALL QBs do that. Looking at all the current starting QBs in the NFL, who would you rather have? Mahomes misses too. He just has much more confidence in himself in the moment than Josh does. That is the difference between the two. We thought we'd get that from Allen by year 5, but it didn't look like it. However it has given him his celebrity status. Seeing Twitter pics of him this morning golfing with Tom Brady. I wish they'd make him stop that. At least the photo opps until he actually wins something on the football field. And the Bills should pay Peyton Manning anything they want to be Allen's QB coach.

THAT'S THE POINT!!!!

Mahomes hardly EVER misses. When he does, like the AFCCG like I detailed vs Cincy) he losses. The difference between those on the Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks and Josh Allen (so far) is minuscule. He is almost there....but not quite.

The opportunity to get there was in his hands vs KC. He flubbed it. That does not mean he will keep on flubbing it, nor does it mean that the head coach is the reason for him flubbing it.

He just did.

[sahlensguy]

THAT'S THE POINT!!!!

Mahomes hardly EVER misses. When he does, like the AFCCG like I detailed vs Cincy) he losses. The difference between those on the Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks and Josh Allen (so far) is minuscule. He is almost there....but not quite.

The opportunity to get there was in his hands vs KC. He flubbed it. That does not mean he will keep on flubbing it, nor does it mean that the head coach is the reason for him flubbing it.

He just did.

It's not an either/or scenario. The blame is shared for that play.

Allen didn't flub it because of McD. Only partly.

[notacon]

To the subject of if Andy Reid would win SB's with Josh Allen....or if McD would win some with Mahomes.

As I already stated I believe....

How many Super Bowl rings to you think Allen would have if Andy Reid was his coach? NONE.
How many Super Bowl rings to you think McD would have if Patrick Mahomes was his QB? At least one....quite possibly two.

Andy Reid was head coach for twenty one years before finally winning a SB. THE DIFFERENCE in ALL Of those years was that he did not have Patrick Mahomes.

He was head coach for Philly for FOURTEEN YEARS. He came in and hand picked his QB....Donovan McNabb picking him 2nd overall in 1999, his first year as HC. Not surprisingly, McNabb's style of play is extremely similar to Mahomes (and Josh Allen's for that matter).

In his (and McNabb's) second season they saw immediate success going from 3-13 (the year before Reid took over) to 5-11 his first year to 11-5 his second, the season McNabb took over full time starting QB....and went to the playoffs for the first time in in five years.

The success was not complete though. The next three years they LOST the NFCCG. Finally getting to the Super Bowl in his sixth year, only to lose to NE and a QB that was simply better than McNabb...Tom Brady.

Philly, under Reid, got to the NFCCG one more time in 2008 (Reid's 10th season). They lost to Arizona who lost to Pittsburgh in the SB.

Reid leaves Philly and goes to KC in 2013. He immediately hand picks his QB and trades for Alex Smith. I've already chronicled the fact that (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/264044-Is-Josh-Allen-the-very-normal-simple-to-please-man-we-think-he-is?p=5051528&viewfull=1#post5051528), although Reid had success at KC with Smith, they could not get far in the playoffs....UNTIL MAHOMES comes along.

We see this pattern with some of the most celebrated head coaches in history...as I observed in that post (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/264044-Is-Josh-Allen-the-very-normal-simple-to-please-man-we-think-he-is?p=5051528&viewfull=1#post5051528)...


Sensing a pattern here???? No Mahomes, no success. Mahomes - great success.

Same with Belichick and Brady.

Same with Paul Brown and Otto Graham (yes, the great Paul Brown never won a championship without Otto Graham at QB).

Same with Vince Lombardi and Bart Starr (yes, the great Vince Lombardi never won a championship without Bart Starr at QB).

[notacon]

It's not an either/or scenario. The blame is shared for that play.

Allen didn't flub it because of McD. Only partly.

How silly. Your insistence of assigning "blame" to McD is seriously absurd.

Sorry, but the FACT is that Josh Allen failed to rise to the critical moment. It had NOTHING to do with McD.

[YardRat]

QBs optioning out of plays in general, and especially in crucial situations, has gone the way of the Dodo.

I haven't heard a single reference all year to Josh optioning out of any playcall and calling the play himself.

Have you?

Yes, literally every single time he lines up behind center everybody can hear him making checks and adjustments (if he reads them being necessary).

"Down Set. Hut one. Hut two. Hike!" went out in the '40's for chrissakes.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Yes, literally every single time he lines up behind center everybody can hear him making checks and adjustments (if he reads them being necessary).


Checks and adjustments don't mean he's changing the play.

[sahlensguy]

How silly. Your insistence of assigning "blame" to McD is seriously absurd.

Sorry, but the FACT is that Josh Allen failed to rise to the critical moment. It had NOTHING to do with McD.

No need to apologize.

Since you absolve McD of any fault, what do you think he said to Josh at the 2:00 warning?

[Woodman]

Well McDermott would never sit his ass down when it was prudent and he would sit down a fly that landed on the ball for 8 weeks ....

Maybe he should manage him a little more as opposed to kiss his ass all the time.

maybe :scratch:

[sahlensguy]

maybe :scratch:

Maybe?

[Woodman]

the fault in my book was being a little greedy for the first down on 3rd.

2nd down was wasted when you want to run clock and score that's a :nono:

[Woodman]

Allen could have thrown to prime Jerry Rice out of the 2:00 warning for a TD and it still would have been dumb, dumb, dumb.

So true.

no explanation needed! :cheers:

[Woodman]

Both Miami games this year.

There's that! :cheers:

[sahlensguy]

So true.

no explanation needed! :cheers:

It wouldn't be so maddening if McD/Allen addressed this head on. Without doing so, you just know that they are destined to repeat playing this way.

You can't expect a roster full of all stars but your HC and QB could learn to play with awareness in big moments, but you know their not learning anything.

[Woodman]

It wouldn't be so maddening if McD/Allen addressed this head on. Without doing so, you just know that they are destined to repeat playing this way.

You can't expect a roster full of all stars but your HC and QB could learn to play with awareness in big moments, but you know their not learning anything.

In his mind it was like faking the punt ..... he was trying to trick them ..... somebody please tell him to stop that **** right now.

[sahlensguy]

In his mind it was like faking the punt ..... he was trying to trick them ..... somebody please tell him to stop that **** right now.

Right. Not smart, like short cuts. They don't think it was foolish. Just that the execution was bad. so they're not learning from this.

[notacon]

No need to apologize.

Since you absolve McD of any fault, what do you think he said to Josh at the 2:00 warning?

If I were to guess it would be 'Don't make any stupid pays. Don't take foolish risks with the ball. Take what the defense gives you. Run the clock down as much as possible'

[YardRat]

Checks and adjustments don't mean he's changing the play.

Adjustments do. Literally.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Adjustments do. Literally.

Not necessarily.

The same play can be run with adjustments for zone vs man to man, for example.

[notacon]

No need to apologize.

Since you absolve McD of any fault, what do you think he said to Josh at the 2:00 warning?

BTW....I answered your question....why don't you???


What do YOU think he (McD) said to Josh at the 2:00 warning?

[DetoxTent]

THAT'S THE POINT!!!!


I know. That's why I said it.

Allen needs a calm, focused tutor. That's why I keep openly pining for the Bills to figure out a way to sign Peyton Manning to do that. I think he'd be just the ticket for Allen.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

I know. That's why I said it.

Allen needs a calm, focused tutor. That's why I keep openly pining for the Bills to figure out a way to sign Peyton Manning to do that. I think he'd be just the ticket for Allen.

this is pure speculation on my part, but i feel like manning is happy doing his rich, celebrity thing. i don't ever see him coaching

[notacon]

I know. That's why I said it.

Allen needs a calm, focused tutor. That's why I keep openly pining for the Bills to figure out a way to sign Peyton Manning to do that. I think he'd be just the ticket for Allen.


Except you misrepresent what "the point" is. Seems like I have to repeat myself...

Mahomes hardly EVER misses. When he does, like the AFCCG like I detailed vs Cincy) he losses. The difference between those on the Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks and Josh Allen (so far) is minuscule. He is almost there....but not quite.

The opportunity to get there was in his hands vs KC. He flubbed it. That does not mean he will keep on flubbing it, nor does it mean that the head coach is the reason for him flubbing it.

He just did.

This is WAY past the time for a "calm, focused tutor". This has to come from Josh himself....he's had all the "tutoring" that a young QB could hope for....from Brain Daboll to Jordan Palmer. There is no reason to believe that Joe Brady is not a "calm, focused tutor".

Pulling a famous name out of the hat is silly at best. Along with the (almost sure) fact that Peyton Manning will never coach on the NFL level.

This is ON JOSH ALLEN to get his head straight. He is 100% capable of doing just that.

Time to remember Peyton Manning's playoff and SB record.

Peyton first three trips to the playoffs were all "one-and-out", LOSING every one of his first three playoff games in his first five years of his career.

It was not until his SIXTH year in the league that he got to his first AFCCG....he lost to, who else, Tom Brady and the Pats.

The next two season he LOST in the divisional round...in 2004 (his 7th season) it was to the same Tom Brady and the Pats after winning a WC game.

The next season (2005...his EIGHTH year) it was another "one-and-out" losing in the divisional round (Indy was the #1 seed and bye for WC round) to Pittsburgh.

FINALLY in his NINTH season, he beat Brady and NE in the AFCCG and went on to win his first Super Bowl.

The next TWO SEASONS (his TENTH and ELEVENTH, he went "one-and-out", losing as the #2 seed (with a bye) in 2007 to San Diego in div. round, and losing to the same San Diego the next season in the WC round.

His TWELVE season in 2009, again with the #1 seed, (and not having to face Brady or the Pats) he won two playoff games and lost his second SB appearance, rather badly to N.O. 31-7.

The following year, the 2010 season, THIRTEENTH, and last with Indy, another one-and-out, losing in the WC at home vs the Jets.

After his lost 2011 season to injury (and being released by Indy), on to Denver.

His FOURTEENTH season has him supercharging the Broncos to the #1 seed. Manning for the second time, beats Brady and the Pats in the AFCCG (at home) and goes on to a humiliating blow out loss in the Super Bowl at the hands of Seattle, 43-8. OUCH!!!

Next up, his FIFTEENTH season, after leading Denver to the #2 seed and a first round bye, goes one-and-out once again, losing, at home, rather handily to his old team Indy 24-13.

In his SIXTEENTH and last season, again with the advantage of the #1 seed, gets Brady and the Pats at home and beats him. Going on to his fourth SB appearance and his second win.

Career playoff record?....14-13. With the fact that he saw a LOT of losing. His first 10 games he went 4-6 (compared to Josh Allen's 5-5).

In case you were not counting, in Peyton's illustrious 17 year career, he went "ONE-AND-OUT" and astounding EIGHT TIMES in the playoffs...almost HALF of his 15 playoff appearances. (vs Josh Allen's ONCE, his first playoff game, in his five playoff appearances).

So maybe Peyton Manning can "tutor" Josh Allen on how to go "one-and-out" repeatedly and lose a LOT of playoff games. :rolleyes:

[Bill Cody]

I know. That's why I said it.

Allen needs a calm, focused tutor. That's why I keep openly pining for the Bills to figure out a way to sign Peyton Manning to do that. I think he'd be just the ticket for Allen.

Peyton was a choker.

[notacon]

Peyton was a choker.

Maybe.


A "choker" with two Super Bowl rings and a Hall of Fame Gold Jacket among a plethora of awards, MVP's, 1st team All-Pro's, and a Super Bowl MVP.


Would any Bills fan mind if Josh Allen had a career like Peyton's (minus the winning second SB on another team)???


For the record, I am confident that Josh will have a more successful career than Manning and will be shocked if he does not win at least two SB's, both with the Buffalo Bills.

[Kenny]

Peyton was a choker.

nah... he just didnt have a consistently complete team around him every season. Brady didnt have great weapons all the time, but he was good enough to make the offense better and to carry it when needed. The difference between him and Manning is that Brady was backed by a pretty good defense.

You can almost say the same about Josh and Mahomes. Mahomes gets all the media attention because he's good, the team wins, and he plays QB. But it's that defense that allows him to win.
Josh, for as great as he is... isnt good enough to carry the entire team. And yeah, he might make more highlight reel plays, but it's those bone headed mistakes that hold him back. Splash plays dont win games... being consistently good does.

Not saying anything new, but in that game vs. KC, Josh was good. He wasnt the reason we lost, though you could also argue he was one of the reasons we didnt win as well.... but I digress. The difference was the defense. No pass rush, extremely poor tackling, no linebackers, and a slow and aging secondary. I can almost guarantee if we played with KC's defense, and vice versa, we would have won that game.
So I wouldnt spend too much trying to improve this offense. Josh is good enough to elevate that side of the ball. Find a way to fix (or should I say retool) this defense.

[notacon]

nah... he just didnt have a consistently complete team around him every season. Brady didnt have great weapons all the time, but he was good enough to make the offense better and to carry it when needed. The difference between him and Manning is that Brady was backed by a pretty good defense.

You can almost say the same about Josh and Mahomes. Mahomes gets all the media attention because he's good, the team wins, and he plays QB. But it's that defense that allows him to win.
Josh, for as great as he is... isnt good enough to carry the entire team. And yeah, he might make more highlight reel plays, but it's those bone headed mistakes that hold him back. Splash plays dont win games... being consistently good does.

Not saying anything new, but in that game vs. KC, Josh was good. He wasnt the reason we lost, though you could also argue he was one of the reasons we didnt win as well.... but I digress. The difference was the defense. No pass rush, extremely poor tackling, no linebackers, and a slow and aging secondary. I can almost guarantee if we played with KC's defense, and vice versa, we would have won that game.
So I wouldnt spend too much trying to improve this offense. Josh is good enough to elevate that side of the ball. Find a way to fix (or should I say retool) this defense.

Except KC's defense has not been that great during most of Mahomes reign of excellence.


In FACT, the ranking of defense as measured by average yards allowed per game for the regular season (the most accurate and accepted measurement of quality of defense), 2023 was the ONLY year that KC's defense ranked better than Buffalo's...


<tbody>

KC D Rank
Bills D rank


2018
31
2


2019
17
3


2020
16
14


2021
27
1


2022
11
6


2023
2
9

</tbody>
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Josh DOES have the ability and ABSOLUTELY CAN and DOES "carry the entire team". That is the very definition of a Tier 1 elite QB (https://theathletic.com/4723809/2023/07/31/nfl-quarterback-tiers-rankings-2023/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=7356484), which Josh Allen is unquestionably one.

It's not a matter of "blame" and blaming the defense for the KC loss is NOT credible. KC's defense COULD NOT STOP THE BILLS.

Josh had the opportunity to win the game after the 2 min. mark. KC's defense is NOT the reason he failed.

JOSH is the reason he failed.

[notacon]

BTW....2023, the only season that KC's defense ranked better than Buffalo is the season they had the LEAST number of wins....11....since Mahomes became their starting QB.

2018 - 12
2019 - 12
2020 - 14
2021 - 12
2022 - 14
2023 - 11

[ghz in pittsburgh]

From Buffalo News in Vegas:

BN: How much do you replay the end of that game against Kansas City?


JA: “A lot.”

BN: So it sticks with you, or are you able to move on from it?

JA: "It does stick with me. It sticks with me until I play again, so it will haunt me all offseason. There is every which way that you can think about ‘I could have done something different. I could have done something more.’ That's never a good feeling.”

[notacon]

From Buffalo News in Vegas:

BN: How much do you replay the end of that game against Kansas City?


JA: “A lot.”

BN: So it sticks with you, or are you able to move on from it?

JA: "It does stick with me. It sticks with me until I play again, so it will haunt me all offseason. There is every which way that you can think about ‘I could have done something different. I could have done something more.’ That's never a good feeling.”

Thanks for this!!

GOOD!!!! You watch it Josh...over and over and over again.

If one has NFL+ subscription (which I do) you can watch the "All-22" film for each play. Two version of each play. Sideline and end zone.

I watched two plays after the 2 min warning several times. I even posted stills for it here (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265007-Requiem-for-the-Bills-When-will-Josh-Learn?p=5080987&viewfull=1#post5080987) and here (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265007-Requiem-for-the-Bills-When-will-Josh-Learn?p=5080991&viewfull=1#post5080991).

It is glaringly obvious that Josh screwed the pooch and let a golden opportunity to win that game slip through his fingers and there is NO DOUBT that Josh is correct that ‘I could have done something different. I could have done something more.’

And it SHOULD BE "...never a good feeling".

That is what this thread is all about. Josh has to LEARN....the question is "WHEN"????

Until he DOES learn, the Bills will probably not win a Super Bowl.

[Thurmal]

this is pure speculation on my part, but i feel like manning is happy doing his rich, celebrity thing. i don't ever see him coaching

Haha, it's not speculation. He makes probably 5X in endorsements what he'd be paid as a coach. It's a no-brainer. Keep doing that or take a paycut and have to travel all over the country for six months a year. Uhhh

[YardRat]

From Buffalo News in Vegas:

BN: How much do you replay the end of that game against Kansas City?


JA: “A lot.”

BN: So it sticks with you, or are you able to move on from it?

JA: "It does stick with me. It sticks with me until I play again, so it will haunt me all offseason. There is every which way that you can think about ‘I could have done something different. I could have done something more.’ That's never a good feeling.”


The rhetoric is getting old.

If Josh doesn't like it, he should work harder to correct it. Or work smarter. Or both.

Win something.

[Bill Cody]

nah... he just didnt have a consistently complete team around him every season. Brady didnt have great weapons all the time, but he was good enough to make the offense better and to carry it when needed. The difference between him and Manning is that Brady was backed by a pretty good defense.

You can almost say the same about Josh and Mahomes. Mahomes gets all the media attention because he's good, the team wins, and he plays QB. But it's that defense that allows him to win.
Josh, for as great as he is... isnt good enough to carry the entire team. And yeah, he might make more highlight reel plays, but it's those bone headed mistakes that hold him back. Splash plays dont win games... being consistently good does.

Not saying anything new, but in that game vs. KC, Josh was good. He wasnt the reason we lost, though you could also argue he was one of the reasons we didnt win as well.... but I digress. The difference was the defense. No pass rush, extremely poor tackling, no linebackers, and a slow and aging secondary. I can almost guarantee if we played with KC's defense, and vice versa, we would have won that game.
So I wouldnt spend too much trying to improve this offense. Josh is good enough to elevate that side of the ball. Find a way to fix (or should I say retool) this defense.

Well if the team around him wasn't good enough that was partly his own choice as he always wanted to scrape the last nickel in contracts unlike Brady. But he almost always had better weapons than Brady did except maybe 2007 with Moss.

He was probably the greatest regular season QB ever. But it's impossible to argue his play generally went down significantly in the playoffs. He did beat Brady in 2015 and that IMO was the highlight of his career. Whoever won that game was guaranteed a SB against the Rex Grossman led Bears. The 2nd SB he was washed and carried completely by an historically good Denver D.

KC's D has been excellent this year but that hasn't usually been the case. Josh just needs to be a little bit better although it certainly wasn't his fault with 13 seconds. But it's a tall order beating Mahomes. If Mahomes wins tomorrow he's on a path to be the GOAT.

[Mad Max]

Haha, it's not speculation. He makes probably 5X in endorsements what he'd be paid as a coach. It's a no-brainer. Keep doing that or take a paycut and have to travel all over the country for six months a year. Uhhh
Josh wouldn’t need full time coaching which of course Manning doesn’t have the time nor inclination to do. What Josh needs is to ask for guidance from a mentor of Mannings pedigree. Someone who’s been to where he wants to take us.

Someone would do it, if not Manning then Brady or Steve Young.

I don’t think the Bills even have any Super Bowl winning staff members?

[Woodman]

Josh misses stuff sometimes.

They all do to be fair.

[Woodman]

It's not cut and dry like that. Dion Dawkins' butt influanced Allen's throw too but the ball didn't touch it.

It did ever so slightly influence it.

[Woodman]

Yes there’s been times when McDermott coaches a great game like the first Miami game and Dallas game. The problem is he’s inconsistent and folds when under playoff pressure.

Very inconsistent.

[Woodman]

I still can't blame Allen much. They've had six years to build a savage offense around him... they've porked around with the ol, receivers and backs...and it's still his fault no matter what he does.

No. It's on staff and personnel it's ridiculous we haven't maximized a franchise qb and it's his fault he couldn't carry them farther with receivers that can,t catch.

Yeah, bounce another ball off the open guy and let's pretend he'll really catch it this time.

[sahlensguy]

If I were to guess it would be 'Don't make any stupid pays. Don't take foolish risks with the ball. Take what the defense gives you. Run the clock down as much as possible'

I suspect he told Allen the same thing he told the players before the half, "Go for it".

No hard directive. Just hard clapping.

[Historian]

https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426520617_934155311404154_3319806376960891985_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s640x640&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=O7MPMEtzl9gAX-ezW9T&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&oh=00_AfBGLnkkerVXvPjn1HvmMKz7-9HF-TWF1auUre3ckwnfPA&oe=65D2E6D0

[sahlensguy]

https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426520617_934155311404154_3319806376960891985_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s640x640&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=O7MPMEtzl9gAX-ezW9T&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&oh=00_AfBGLnkkerVXvPjn1HvmMKz7-9HF-TWF1auUre3ckwnfPA&oe=65D2E6D0

Good for him, but why would he change? He's got money and the status.

[notacon]

https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/426520617_934155311404154_3319806376960891985_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s640x640&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=O7MPMEtzl9gAX-ezW9T&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&oh=00_AfBGLnkkerVXvPjn1HvmMKz7-9HF-TWF1auUre3ckwnfPA&oe=65D2E6D0

Maybe Tiger could give Josh some mental tips as Tiger embodied the realization of the great Bobby Jones' famous quote, that is absolutely applicable to those biggest moments for a NFL QB...


"Competitive golf (insert: NFL QB Playoff football) is played mainly on a five-and-a-half-inch course....the space between your ears"

[sahlensguy]

Maybe Tiger could give Josh some mental tips as Tiger embodied the realization of the great Bobby Jones' famous quote, that is absolutely applicable to those biggest moments for a NFL QB...


"Competitive golf (insert: NFL QB Playoff football) is played mainly on a five-and-a-half-inch course....the space between your ears"

Josh is there to have a good time.

[notacon]

Josh is there to have a good time.

Sure he is....but that did not stop him from teaching Tiger how the throw a football...


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[sahlensguy]

Sure he is....but that did not stop him from teaching Tiger how the throw a football...


<iframe style="width:100%;height:100%;position:absolute;left:0px;top:0px;overflow:hidden" frameborder="0" type="text/html" src="https://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x8ss8h4?autoplay=1" width="100%" height="100%" allowfullscreen="" title="Dailymotion Video Player" allow="autoplay"> </iframe>

"Did you throw up before it?

"No, I did not"

"It's your signature move"

Ouch. Stomach of champions.