92% of NFL players want grass fields

[Woodman]

"It's really basic," Howell said, according to ESPN. "It's not rocket science. Ninety-two percent of our union wants grass. That's compelling. The bottom line is, it's unquestionable that our union wants to have a working condition where they play on grass."

The debate between grass and artificial playing surfaces (https://www.foxnews.com/sports/former-nfler-says-playing-turf-fields-felt-like-car-crashes) has been raging for the past couple of years as player safety has come to the forefront.

Half of the 30 NFL stadiums use artificial turf, while the remaining 15 stadiums use either hybrid or natural grass, per The Associated Press.

Grass surfaces are supposed to be softer and allow for fewer injuries.



92% of NFL players want grass fields, NFLPA head says | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/sports/92-nfl-players-want-grass-fields-nflpa-head-says)

[OpIv37]

It’ll never happen because it will cost the owners too much money.

But has anyone done a study to see if there really are more serious injuries on turf? If there really are more significant injuries, maybe the owners will want to invest in grass to protect their investment in the players.

[Goobylal]

Good thing the Bills will have grass for the new stadium.

[Forward_Lateral]

They'll never switch. NFL owners are the greediest bunch of bastards in sports.

[Typ0]

Football should be played on grass that becomes mud when it rains.

[Forward_Lateral]

It’ll never happen because it will cost the owners too much money.

But has anyone done a study to see if there really are more serious injuries on turf? If there really are more significant injuries, maybe the owners will want to invest in grass to protect their investment in the players.
How many soccer players tear their ACL/Achilles in non-contact situations. How many in the NFL?

That would answer the question, for the most part. I'd love to see if there's any studies been done on this.

[Goobylal]

How many soccer players tear their ACL/Achilles in non-contact situations. How many in the NFL?

That would answer the question, for the most part. I'd love to see if there's any studies been done on this.

It happens all the time. And then they bounce right back up after the offending player gets a card...

[Typ0]

The turf of my day you basically were playing on a concrete pad. Today's stuff I don't know much about. Anyone have experience with todays technology? Having seen it and stood on it you could tell a lot. What if they make it so they have to play on a very well defined matt under artificial turf?

What if they do start to legislate things about the field that reduce home field advantage? What do you think about that?

[Goobylal]

The turf of my day you basically were playing on a concrete pad. Today's stuff I don't know much about. Anyone have experience with todays technology? Having seen it and stood on it you could tell a lot. What if they make it so they have to play on a very well defined matt under artificial turf?

What if they do start to legislate things about the field that reduce home field advantage? What do you think about that?

Today's artificial turf is much better than the hard plastic "blades" put over concrete fields. It has soft "blades" and infill, with a pad underneath/on top of the concrete. Grass is best in non-frozen conditions.

[sukie]

It happens all the time. And then they bounce right back up after the offending player gets a card...
:rofl:

[Gibby 2.0]

It’ll never happen because it will cost the owners too much money.

But has anyone done a study to see if there really are more serious injuries on turf? If there really are more significant injuries, maybe the owners will want to invest in grass to protect their investment in the players.
I'd have to look them up because I looked into this when my high school got a stadium of its own for the first time in decades. Because of a DL who went to Mizzou and has played for Miami and Atlanta and now plays for Detroit they were actually able to build a stadium for the school. Anyways, the school chose to use turf instead of grass, and yeah, there are lots of studies out there that show that natural grass is far less damaging on knees, and legs, and feet and toes than turf, especially if its well maintained. OF course, if you have a poorly maintained grass field you could get injuries galore as well

[Woodman]

Good thing the Bills will have grass for the new stadium.

:gobills:

[Forward_Lateral]

It happens all the time. And then they bounce right back up after the offending player gets a card...

:snicker:

[OpIv37]

The turf of my day you basically were playing on a concrete pad. Today's stuff I don't know much about. Anyone have experience with todays technology? Having seen it and stood on it you could tell a lot. What if they make it so they have to play on a very well defined matt under artificial turf?

What if they do start to legislate things about the field that reduce home field advantage? What do you think about that?

If it reduces injuries then I'm for it. And honestly, how much home field advantage does the turf itself provide? We know players tend to be slightly faster on turf than grass, but no team is faster than their opponent every time. Do you really want Tyreek Hill or Sauce Gardner to be faster on our turf? Conversely, if we switched to grass, then guys like Diggs would be slower. It's completely situational.

[OpIv37]

How many soccer players tear their ACL/Achilles in non-contact situations. How many in the NFL?

That would answer the question, for the most part. I'd love to see if there's any studies been done on this.

My cousin got seriously injured playing indoor soccer on turf. He wasn't anywhere near the play. He just turned to run towards the ball, his cleat got caught in the turf and he broke his leg in 2 places. It took multiple surgeries to get back to normal.

Of course, that was over 20 years ago at some white trash sports complex in South Jersey, so I'm sure the NFL has better turf than what he was playing on.

[Forward_Lateral]

My cousin got seriously injured playing indoor soccer on turf. He wasn't anywhere near the play. He just turned to run towards the ball, his cleat got caught in the turf and he broke his leg in 2 places. It took multiple surgeries to get back to normal.

Of course, that was over 20 years ago at some white trash sports complex in South Jersey, so I'm sure the NFL has better turf than what he was playing on.
I don't know how much more advanced turf is. it seems like a lot of the non contact, and even some of the contact knee injuries are due to the shoe/spike getting caught up in the turf with no give.

It's just another reason on the list of many that the NFL is the greediest sports entity in the world

[notacon]

DUH!!!! Of COURSE "92% of NFL players want grass fields".

I do not share the negatively that it will "never happen".

It may have to wait until the current NFL CBA expires in March 2030, but I strongly suspect there will be a LOT of pressure on the NFLPA to make it a critical issue in the negotiations.

We already know that it is not only possible to change field surfaces, but when the rubber hits to road it gets done.

Half of the NFL stadiums have artificial playing surfaces. Seven of those will host matches during the 2026 FIFA World Cup soccer matches. Ahead of the tournament, grass field MUST be installed at the stadiums in Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Houston, LA, New Jersey and Seattle.

It's a matter of time. The players ARE the NFL. Over the years they have used their clout to demand close to 50% of almost all of the revenue generated in the NFL. Since grass fields affects their very career and health, with the FACT that once a league REQUIRES grass fields (like thew FIFA) it gets done, excuses for not doing it are exposed as pure bullcrap.

The method to ensure it gets done is the NFL CBA.

[OpIv37]

DUH!!!! Of COURSE "92% of NFL players want grass fields".

I do not share the negatively that it will "never happen".

It may have to wait until the current NFL CBA expires in March 2030, but I strongly suspect there will be a LOT of pressure on the NFLPA to make it a critical issue in the negotiations.

We already know that it is not only possible to change field surfaces, but when the rubber hits to road it gets done.

Half of the NFL stadiums have artificial playing surfaces. Seven of those will host matches during the 2026 FIFA World Cup soccer matches. Ahead of the tournament, grass field MUST be installed at the stadiums in Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Houston, LA, New Jersey and Seattle.

It's a matter of time. The players ARE the NFL. Over the years they have used their clout to demand close to 50% of almost all of the revenue generated in the NFL. Since grass fields affects their very career and health, with the FACT that once a league REQUIRES grass fields (like thew FIFA) it gets done, excuses for not doing it are exposed as pure bullcrap.

The method to ensure it gets done is the NFL CBA.

Jones and Kraft will change it for the World Cup then change it back because long-term, turf is cheaper to maintain than grass. The other owners will probably do the same.

[notacon]

Jones and Kraft will change it for the World Cup then change it back because long-term, turf is cheaper to maintain than grass. The other owners will probably do the same.

That's not the point.

Turf being cheaper to maintain than grass is shortsighted and dumb. The owners will not do it without being forced...like they were to host the FIFA tournament.

The point is that the NFLPA is going to have to force them to do it. If they do, it will get done.

[DraftBoy]

That's not the point.

Turf being cheaper to maintain than grass is shortsighted and dumb. The owners will not do it without being forced...like they were to host the FIFA tournament.

The point is that the NFLPA is going to have to force them to do it. If they do, it will get done.

I believe this was tried in both of the last two CBA negotiations but the owners wanted too much back to cover their costs so the NFLPA nixed it. The overwhelming majority of players may want it, but what are they willing to give up to get it?

[BuffaloBlitz83]

It’ll never happen because it will cost the owners too much money.

But has anyone done a study to see if there really are more serious injuries on turf? If there really are more significant injuries, maybe the owners will want to invest in grass to protect their investment in the players.

You could compare injury rate From these 2 grass fields vs turf fields.

The Cleveland Browns and Pittsburgh Steelers are two franchises that have stadiums in cold-weather climates, but also cultivate natural grass fields in both Lambeau and Heinz Field.

[TheConsigliere]

97% just want good grass to smoke.

[notacon]

I believe this was tried in both of the last two CBA negotiations but the owners wanted too much back to cover their costs so the NFLPA nixed it. The overwhelming majority of players may want it, but what are they willing to give up to get it?

I have no idea what it will take. I suspect that other issues (percentage of shared revenue....reducing practice time...etc...) were more critical in respect to priorities.

The "cost" argument is pretty much a canard.....in other words bullcrap.

I do not buy for ONE SECOND that there is an overwhelming "cost" issue. The cost for installing and maintaining a grass field, although more than turf, is NOT in any way daunting or would come even close to seriously impacting the bottom line.

There are a lot of numbers thrown around as to the cost difference in installing (and replacing every so often) a turf field as compared to the ongoing cost to maintain a grass field.

The differences are not that great. According to this article, "Costs: Grass vs Synthetic Turf" (https://www.safehealthyplayingfields.org/cost-grass-vs-synthetic-turf)....the conclusion is....."Synthetic turf costs more to install, ALMOST as much to maintain, and HAS TO BE replaced once it wears out."

The estimates to install grass field in each stadium, a report by Forbes said. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/terencemoore/2022/12/23/for-119-million-nfl-could-save-maybe-1-billion-with-grass-fields-instead-of-artificial-ones/?sh=d064be0b48ed)...


….the Associated Press (https://apnews.com/article/new-york-jets-carolina-panthers-nfl-sports-aaron-rodgers-1d22c7efbe62ff9d58d1df1a1f45ee47) reported the cost for each one would be “roughly $500,000 for demolition, new rock underlayment and irrigation (drainage could be reused) and another $350,000 for lay-and-play sod.”

Let’s see.

That’s $850,000 overall.


Yes, cold weather stadiums would have to change the grass more often and more difficult to maintain. Indoor stadiums present a challenge but not that much with the advent of advanced LED technology. Gee....they have been growing marijuana (and other less critical plants :D: ) indoors for decades, a little grass (yes, the grass that is played on) would present more maintenance cost but it is extremely possible and realistic.

As the article above states, the difference in maintaining a grass vs turf field is not that great....For arguments sake, let's say it would cost $2M more annually to maintain grass over turf.

<style>@font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1107305727 0 0 415 0;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073732485 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1593833729 1073750107 16 0 415 0;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:#222222;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; color:#0563C1; mso-themecolor:hyperlink; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;}a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; color:#954F72; mso-themecolor:followedhyperlink; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;}p {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.5pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.5pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Verdana; color:#222222; mso-font-kerning:0pt; mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}</style>Forbes also annually publishes (https://www.forbes.com/lists/nfl-valuations/?sh=db3e26417386) some extremely interesting numbers of each NFL team's worth, revenue and "operating income"...better known as PROFIT.

The numbers are eye opening.

Average Worth - $5.1B
Average Revenue - $581M
Average Profit - $126M

Highest Worth - Dallas - $9B
Lowest Worth - Cincy - $3.5B

Highest Revenue - Dallas - $1.14B
Lowest Revenue - Detroit - $495M (only two teams below $550M - Cincy - $498)

Highest Profit - Dallas - $504M
Lowest Profit - Detroit - $51M

Only 13 Teams with profit under $100M (Minny - $99M, Pittsburgh - $96M, KC - $95M)

Bills Worth - $3.7B
Bills Revenue - $503M
Bills Profit - $119M

$581M in Revenue...the average for NFL teams - if spend $2M on Grass (.34%)

Equivalent as a family with $100,000 income - spending $344.23

You would think that NFL owners, all of which became wealthy well before they bought or owned (if passed down within the family) would want to protect THE most valuable asset they have. THE PLAYERS!!!!

I suspect that they do not believe, for whatever reason, that grass field will not effect injuries in a substantial way. Studies are mixed on that subject.

What is NOT "mixed" is that players HATE PLAYING ON TURF. They may not get injured, but it is UNDENIABLE that their bodies take a MUCH worse beating with turf than grass.

Whenever the "it costs to much" argument comes up, it's bullcrap!!! When the NFLPA raises the priority of grass field, over or close to the subject of percentage of the overall revenue (and what constitutes sharable revenue) grass field will become the norm.

[Historian]

In addition to it being en vogue at the time, this is the reason the Bills put artificial turf into Rich Stadium, and why they never changed to grass over the last 50 years:



https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/426742650_426957719676303_519132769552912039_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s2048x2048&_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8cd0a2&_nc_ohc=wKCPobBjET0AX95ZD9_&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=03_AdTqEOYZdUvPLnGqrEAMEngPf-yutefNcGi3opB6kYNnKQ&oe=65F192F5

https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/423766203_310703734892658_1651137765961208747_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s2048x2048&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8cd0a2&_nc_ohc=TrpCdJn6tIsAX-mFrE3&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=03_AdSoJ8ZV_xI9hp-7EpyxFOadLO2d5MY2Q9wCSnzhvBfZTA&oe=65F1A84E

[Historian]

Here's a better illustration.

Opening day, 1971.

Rained like hell. My first regular season game.

Watch how the field deteriorates as the game goes on.

The Bills then have to play on it for another seven games, lol.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-wx7u89Pa-g?si=WlKPeKzD4mHJSApv" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[sukie]

I have no idea what it will take. I suspect that other issues (percentage of shared revenue....reducing practice time...etc...) were more critical in respect to priorities.

The "cost" argument is pretty much a canard.....in other words bullcrap.

I do not buy for ONE SECOND that there is an overwhelming "cost" issue. The cost for installing and maintaining a grass field, although more than turf, is NOT in any way daunting or would come even close to seriously impacting the bottom line.

There are a lot of numbers thrown around as to the cost difference in installing (and replacing every so often) a turf field as compared to the ongoing cost to maintain a grass field.

The differences are not that great. According to this article, "Costs: Grass vs Synthetic Turf" (https://www.safehealthyplayingfields.org/cost-grass-vs-synthetic-turf)....the conclusion is....."Synthetic turf costs more to install, ALMOST as much to maintain, and HAS TO BE replaced once it wears out."

The estimates to install grass field in each stadium, a report by Forbes said. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/terencemoore/2022/12/23/for-119-million-nfl-could-save-maybe-1-billion-with-grass-fields-instead-of-artificial-ones/?sh=d064be0b48ed)...



Yes, cold weather stadiums would have to change the grass more often and more difficult to maintain. Indoor stadiums present a challenge but not that much with the advent of advanced LED technology. Gee....they have been growing marijuana (and other less critical plants :D: ) indoors for decades, a little grass (yes, the grass that is played on) would present more maintenance cost but it is extremely possible and realistic.

As the article above states, the difference in maintaining a grass vs turf field is not that great....For arguments sake, let's say it would cost $2M more annually to maintain grass over turf.

<style>@font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1107305727 0 0 415 0;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073732485 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1593833729 1073750107 16 0 415 0;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:#222222;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; color:#0563C1; mso-themecolor:hyperlink; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;}a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; color:#954F72; mso-themecolor:followedhyperlink; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;}p {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.5pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.5pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Verdana; color:#222222; mso-font-kerning:0pt; mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}</style>Forbes also annually publishes (https://www.forbes.com/lists/nfl-valuations/?sh=db3e26417386) some extremely interesting numbers of each NFL team's worth, revenue and "operating income"...better known as PROFIT.

The numbers are eye opening.

Average Worth - $5.1B
Average Revenue - $581M
Average Profit - $126M

Highest Worth - Dallas - $9B
Lowest Worth - Cincy - $3.5B

Highest Revenue - Dallas - $1.14B
Lowest Revenue - Detroit - $495M (only two teams below $550M - Cincy - $498)

Highest Profit - Dallas - $504M
Lowest Profit - Detroit - $51M

Only 13 Teams with profit under $100M (Minny - $99M, Pittsburgh - $96M, KC - $95M)

Bills Worth - $3.7B
Bills Revenue - $503M
Bills Profit - $119M

$581M in Revenue...the average for NFL teams - if spend $2M on Grass (.34%)

Equivalent as a family with $100,000 income - spending $344.23

You would think that NFL owners, all of which became wealthy well before they bought or owned (if passed down within the family) would want to protect THE most valuable asset they have. THE PLAYERS!!!!

I suspect that they do not believe, for whatever reason, that grass field will not effect injuries in a substantial way. Studies are mixed on that subject.

What is NOT "mixed" is that players HATE PLAYING ON TURF. They may not get injured, but it is UNDENIABLE that their bodies take a MUCH worse beating with turf than grass.

Whenever the "it costs to much" argument comes up, it's bullcrap!!! When the NFLPA raises the priority of grass field, over or close to the subject of percentage of the overall revenue (and what constitutes sharable revenue) grass field will become the norm.

Still haven’t seen any LED grown grass surfaces that could stand up to NFL play. Soccer perhaps but that’s not an equivalent. As of now there are no football stadiums that are domes with real grass NOT on a removable”Tray” setup.

[notacon]

Still haven’t seen any LED grown grass surfaces that could stand up to NFL play. Soccer perhaps but that’s not an equivalent. As of now there are no football stadiums that are domes with real grass NOT on a removable”Tray” setup.

Then you are not looking close enough....or more likely, you do not have enough knowledge about LED lighting.

I do.

The last 16 years of my career was in photo/video lighting. The company I worked for also produced and sold LED lighting for agricultural use.

Not only is it possible to grow "grass surfaces that could stand up to NFL play", the ability to precisely control the color wavelength output of LED lights make it better suited than relying on fickle sunshine in cold weather cites, even in open air stadiums.

Baltimore was the second cit (https://www.espn.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/27672/no-sun-no-problem-ravens-become-second-nfl-team-to-use-artificial-lighting-for-grass-field)y to use artificial lighting (after Green Bay) to ensure a healthy grass field (Green Bay uses a hybrid that is mostly grass but fortified with synthetic fibers....the field is heated as well, like the Bills field will be), suitable to stand up to NFL play, when late in the year, there is diminished amount of sunshine....along with sometimes too much water and too cold temperatures.

The ability to completely control light, water and temperature could provide domed stadiums with extremely good field surfaces.

Additionally, new sod surfaces can be and ARE changed regularly and artificial lighting is perfectly suitable to assist in maintaining a good field surface. All it takes is a little bit more money.

The Athletic (who else....best sports media site in the US) had this tidbit in a story (https://theathletic.com/5262153/2024/02/11/super-bowl-58-grass-field-turf-las-vegas/?source=freedailyemail&campaign=601983&userId=13460465)about how the field was prepared for the Super Bowl....


Allegiant Stadium is a domed stadium that utilizes a field tray that enables the Raiders (https://theathletic.com/nfl/team/raiders/) to play on natural grass. Using an artificial turf field would be more convenient, but owner Mark Davis insisted on natural grass because that’s what the majority of NFL players prefer. On Wednesday, the NFLPA revealed it surveyed about 1,700 players to ask whether they preferred to play on grass or turf.


THAT is the attitude that is missing from too many NFL owners.

The field surface in last years SB, in Arizona, was TERRIBLE, despite the fact that they use the same tray system as Las Vegas. This years' field was perfect.

George Toma, the longtime groundskeeper of every Super Bowl until he retired after last year's debacle (at the age of 94) had choice words (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35754546/ex-nfl-groundskeeper-george-toma-super-bowl-lvii-field-was-overwatered) for NFL field director, Ed Mangan, who reportedly screwed up in the care of the field.

Not surprisingly, Ed Mangan was replaced by the NFL and hired Nick Pappas last March to prepare for this years SB surface.

The point is that proper CARE for a grass field is what matters. Domed stadiums could ALL have grass fields if they are forced to do so.<style>@font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1107305727 0 0 415 0;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073732485 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1593833729 1073750107 16 0 415 0;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:#222222;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;}a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; color:#954F72; mso-themecolor:followedhyperlink; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.5pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.5pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Verdana; color:#222222; mso-font-kerning:0pt; mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}</style>

[sukie]

I understand the lighting. But your examples of Baltimore and GB are outdoor facilities in the cold north. There has yet to be a football played indoor grass surface that I am aware of (other than the rail-tray systems.)

im not saying that it may not be possible in the future it’s just not ready yet.

[notacon]

I understand the lighting. But your examples of Baltimore and GB are outdoor facilities in the cold north. There has yet to be a football played indoor grass surface that I am aware of (other than the rail-tray systems.)

im not saying that it may not be possible in the future it’s just not ready yet.

Uhhhh....you certainly suggested as much.


It IS possible TODAY!!!! NO QUESTION WHATSOEVER.


It's a matter of will and money.

[notacon]

BTW...the examples of Baltimore and Green Bay are perfectly applicable is so much as the conditions of those cites in winter is much more difficult than inside a dome for both light and temperature.

A completely controlled environment as to amount and colr spectrum (and wavelength) of light, water and temp all favor doing so inside a dome.

LED lighting has been in use for agricultural use for many years. Here is an article discussing it back in 2018....

Growing the future (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/lifestyle/led-growing/)
High-tech farmers are using LED lights in ways that seem to border on science fiction


Mike Zelkind stands at one end of what was once a shipping container and opens the door to the future.

Thousands of young collard greens are growing vigorously under a glow of pink-purple lamps in a scene that seems to have come from a sci-fi movie, or at least a NASA experiment. But Zelkind is at the helm of an earthbound enterprise. He is chief executive of 80 Acres Farms (https://www.eafarms.com/), with a plant factory in an uptown Cincinnati neighborhood where warehouses sit cheek by jowl with detached houses.

Since plants emerged on Earth, they have relied on the light of the sun to feed and grow through the process of photosynthesis.

But Zelkind is part of a radical shift in agriculture — decades in the making — in which plants can be grown commercially without a single sunbeam. A number of technological advances have made this possible, but none more so than innovations in LED lighting.

“What is sunlight from a plant’s perspective?” Zelkind asks. “It’s a bunch of photons.”

Diode lights, which work by passing a current between semiconductors, have come a long way since they showed up in calculator displays in the 1970s. Compared with other forms of electrical illumination, light-emitting diodes use less energy, give off little heat and can be manipulated to optimize plant growth.

In agricultural applications, LED lights are used in ways that seem to border on alchemy, changing how plants grow, when they flower, how they taste and even their levels of vitamins and antioxidants. The lights can also prolong their shelf life.

“People haven’t begun to think about the real impact of what we are doing,” says Zelkind, who is using light recipes to grow, for example, two types of basil from the same plant: sweeter ones for the grocery store and more piquant versions for chefs.

….snip…

In addition to shaping the plants, LEDs allow speedy, year-round crop cycles. This permits Zelkind and his team of growers and technicians to produce 200,000 pounds of leafy greens, vine crops, herbs and microgreens annually in a 12,000-square-foot warehouse, an amount that would require 80 acres of farmland (hence the company’s name).

….snip….


Production in the Cincinnati location began in December 2016. In September, the company broke ground on the first phase of a major expansion 30 miles away in Hamilton, Ohio, that will eventually have three fully automated indoor farms totaling 150,000 square feet and a fourth for 30,000 square feet of vine crops in a converted factory. (The company also has indoor growing operations in Alabama, North Carolina and Arkansas, which acted as proving grounds for the technology.)

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A reminder....a NFL football field is 57,600 sq feet.

The ability to grow food with more control as to their output, taste and even their levels of vitamins and antioxidants is more difficult than growing something as simple as grass.


All that is needed is light, water and relatively warm temp.

[Mr. Pink]

Football should be played on grass that becomes mud when it rains.

I miss the days of old Municipal Stadium in Cleveland with the painted dirt.

[notacon]

I miss the days of old Municipal Stadium in Cleveland with the painted dirt.

That was before the minimum salary for a NFL player in his third year is over $1M, and the best QB's demand between $40M (the 3 tied for 10th highest APY salary...Daniel Jones, Stafford and Prescott) and $55M (Joe Burrow).

[Typ0]

That was before the minimum salary for a NFL player in his third year is over $1M, and the best QB's demand between $40M (the 3 tied for 10th highest APY salary...Daniel Jones, Stafford and Prescott) and $55M (Joe Burrow).

You mean the days when they put down the indoor/outdoor carpet on the concrete?

[notacon]

You mean the days when they put down the indoor/outdoor carpet on the concrete?

I went to a couple of concerts at Rich Stadium in the 70's sitting on the field with little more than a tarp on it.

It was, in fact, just like sitting on concrete. Thankfully, my grass consumption mitigated the pain and discomfort. :D:

The turf fields have gotten much better than the bad days of "indoor/outdoor carpet on the concrete", but none of them can compares to a structurally sound, carefully designed, well maintained grass field.

There is a reason why the FIFA has banned artificial turf for all World Cup games, and the US stadiums that do not have grass will change install it just to get the games.

[sukie]

Uhhhh....you certainly suggested as much.

Someone would have the will somewhere if it was viably possible.
It IS possible TODAY!!!! NO QUESTION WHATSOEVER.


It's a matter of will and money.

[notacon]

So, sukie has to resort to dishonestly "quoting" me, and changing the quote.

If you use the "reply with quote" feature, adjusting the quote is dishonest. Please don't do that.

Let's go over what I ACTUALLY wrote and your lame response.

I wrote this...


"Uhhhh....you certainly suggested as much (that installing and maintaining a grass field in a dome may not be possible)

It IS (installing and maintaining grass field in a dome) possible TODAY!!!! NO QUESTION WHATSOEVER.

It's a matter of will and money."

And you dishonestly inserted your own silly response....

"Someone would have the will somewhere if it was viably possible"


What convoluted, lazy and false logic.

It IS "viably possible" TODAY as I clearly illustrated with the FACT that indoor growing of FOOD (which is MUCH harder to grow than grass) has been "viably possible" for YEARS!

Just because NFL franchises have not done it yet, somehow proving that it's NOT "viably possible" is totally lacking in any reasonable sense of logic.

Installing and maintaining a grass field in a dome IS in FACT, already going to take place in FIVE domes in North America (FOUR in the US and one in Canada) when the FIFA World Cup commences in 2026, which requires grass fields (up to the standards that they set) in order to host these games.

Of course you are the guy that is doubting that EV's are "viably possible"....so the lack of foresight is a thing with your mindset.

[sukie]

I mistakenly replied in the [quote] box.

mistake. not a purposeful change in your thought stream.

sue me.

[notacon]

I mistakenly replied in the [quote] box.

mistake. not a purposeful change in your thought stream.

sue me.

Believe me...if it was possible to get any money I would sue you. :D:

[sukie]

Indoor growing of food is different than turf that may take the rigors of soccer but not the grinding abuse of football or even Rugby.

a company that could pull it off would do well in partnering with an NFL Guinea Pig just to make a name for itself.

[notacon]

Indoor growing of food is different than turf that may take the rigors of soccer but not the grinding abuse of football or even Rugby.

a company that could pull it off would do well in partnering with an NFL Guinea Pig just to make a name for itself.

That is specious at best and (I believe the facts prove) not accurate in the least.

[sukie]

Name one indoor stadium that has natural grass grown inside that hosts American football.

[Turf]

The technology today is so much better than 50 years ago. There is no reason cost or ability wise why every stadium cannot have real grass. The NFL itself could pay for the cost increase and not even feel it with all the copious amounts of cash they have.

[DetoxTent]

Name one indoor stadium that has natural grass grown inside that hosts American football.
He can't. But watch his bull**** dance around the question.

[sukie]

The technology today is so much better than 50 years ago. There is no reason cost or ability wise why every stadium cannot have real grass. The NFL itself could pay for the cost increase and not even feel it with all the copious amounts of cash they have.
So domes in Detroit and Minn could have real grass just … like…. ?

[Turf]

Certainly! �� Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas, despite being a dome, boasts a natural grass field. Here’s how it works:

The grass field is mounted on a track with wheels.
This movable field can be rolled in and out of the stadium to receive sunlight when needed.
The NFL grows the grass for the Super Bowl years in advance, using a hybrid grass that takes two years to mature.
Ahead of Super Bowl 58, the grass field was laid on Allegiant Stadium’s track, ensuring optimal conditions for the game1.
So, even under the dome, players get to experience the thrill of real grass beneath their feet! ����

Maintaining natural grass in a dome stadium requires careful planning and specialized techniques. Here are some key aspects of grass maintenance in such stadiums:

Lighting and Sun Exposure:
Since domes block natural sunlight, stadium managers use artificial lighting systems to simulate sunlight for the grass.
These systems provide the necessary photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) to support grass growth.
The grass receives light exposure during non-game hours to maintain its health.

Just a tidbit. The rest is easily available.

[sukie]

I chose Detroit and Minnesota specifically because the rail system wouldn’t work in winter .

[notacon]

Name one indoor stadium that has natural grass grown inside that hosts American football.


Jesus. You just can't get a simple concept through your Luddite head, can you?????

It's TOTALLY IRRELEVANT that no American NFL dome stadium has grass that is grown inside TODAY!!!!

The POINT that you refuse to comprehend is that is is EXTREMELY POSSIBLE and VIABLE. What it is going to take to get it done is the NFLPA to FORCE the issue.

The arguments from owners (and other skeptics) that requiring grass in all NFL stadiums is "too expensive" or "not feasible in domes" is TOTAL BALONEY!!!!

[notacon]

He can't. But watch his bull**** dance around the question.


No "bull****" and no "dance around the question.". Just the facts, common sense and glaringly obvious reality.

[notacon]

The technology today is so much better than 50 years ago. There is no reason cost or ability wise why every stadium cannot have real grass. The NFL itself could pay for the cost increase and not even feel it with all the copious amounts of cash they have.

Duh!!! Of course "There is no reason cost or ability wise why every stadium cannot have real grass".

Cost is a FAKE excuse.

I already posted the facts (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5082792&viewfull=1#post5082792)on cost vs team revenue and put into terms that are easy to understand (to those that want to understand), that a $2M annual increase in cost is the equivalent to $344.23 to a family living on a $100,000 annual income.

Increase the expense and the math STILL shows how insipid and false the "it costs to much" canard.

Let's say that grass field costs $2M more PER GAME over turf (it doesn't even come close to that, but for arguments sake)....so....say TEN GAMES.....that means the annual expense is equivalent to $3,442.30 to a family living on a $100,000 annual income.

Pocket change to each and every NFL team.

[sukie]

Jesus. You just can't get a simple concept through your Luddite head, can you?????

It's TOTALLY IRRELEVANT that no American NFL dome stadium has grass that is grown inside TODAY!!!!

The POINT that you refuse to comprehend is that is is EXTREMELY POSSIBLE and VIABLE. What it is going to take to get it done is the NFLPA to FORCE the issue.

The arguments from owners (and other skeptics) that requiring grass in all NFL stadiums is "too expensive" or "not feasible in domes" is TOTAL BALONEY!!!!

I said football . Could be college for that matter. You saying it is viable and possible doesn’t make it so until somewhere there is grass grown indoors that can handle football.

how can you not get that simple point. Scribbles on paper do not make it so.

you are wrong until someone does it. I am right until someone does it.

the lunatic is on the grass.
Remembering games and Daisy chains and laughs… got to keep the looney’s on the path.

Pink Floyd Lyrics added to lengthen post so Nottie thinks enough effort put in to crushing his argument yet again.

[notacon]

I said football . Could be college for that matter. You saying it is viable and possible doesn’t make it so until somewhere there is grass grown indoors that can handle football.

how can you not get that simple point. Scribbles on paper do not make it so.

you are wrong until someone does it. I am right until someone does it.

the lunatic is on the grass.
Remembering games and Daisy chains and laughs… got to keep the looney’s on the path.

Pink Floyd Lyrics added to lengthen post so Nottie thinks enough effort put in to crushing his argument yet again.


More silly and totally non-logic logic.

Sorry, but the whole idea that "you are wrong until someone does it. I am right until someone does it." is so absurd and ludicrous. I mean, it's just downright dumb.

[sukie]

You will be wrong for a long long time. Meanwhile I’ll bask in my rightness.

[Goobylal]

Duh!!! Of course "There is no reason cost or ability wise why every stadium cannot have real grass".

Cost is a FAKE excuse.

I already posted the facts (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5082792&viewfull=1#post5082792)on cost vs team revenue and put into terms that are easy to understand (to those that want to understand), that a $2M annual increase in cost is the equivalent to $344.23 to a family living on a $100,000 annual income.

Increase the expense and the math STILL shows how insipid and false the "it costs to much" canard.

Let's say that grass field costs $2M more PER GAME over turf (it doesn't even come close to that, but for arguments sake)....so....say TEN GAMES.....that means the annual expense is equivalent to $3,442.30 to a family living on a $100,000 annual income.

Pocket change to each and every NFL team.

Is there a domed stadium anywhere in the world that has a grass field that doesn't use a tray system like in Arizona or LV?

[notacon]

Is there a domed stadium anywhere in the world that has a grass field that doesn't use a tray system like in Arizona or LV?

Irrelevant. I have addressed that canard several times.

In fact, the whole question "Is there a domed stadium anywhere in the world that has a grass field that doesn't use a tray system like in Arizona or LV?" is a canard since (as far as I can tell) there are NO domed stadiums in use outside the US for major professional soccer or rugby. If you can find one, let us know.

In FACT, in order for the FIFA World Cup to be played US stadiums, they MUST install grass whether they are a dome or not. Most major international soccer leagues REQUIRE a grass field.

The MAIN REASON that NFL teams do not "grow grass in a dome" besides using a tray system like Arizona and LV is because the NFL does NOT REQUIRE GRASS FIELDS (Like I believe they SHOULD).

When the NFLPA makes it a priority in CBA negotiations, (that could very well come to fruition when the current CBA expires in March 2020) and they DO force the NFL to REQUIRE grass fields, we will see domed stadiums having grass fields....whether they use the extremely viable LED lighting system or incorporate a tray system will be the only question.

You are falling into the same hole of narrow minded thinking and deeply flawed logic (actually the almost total LACK of logic) that sukie is (and as he does global warming, fossil fuel use and the viability of EV's).



You will be wrong for a long long time. Meanwhile I’ll bask in my rightness.

:rofl: :rofl:

You make a good pimp for cheapskate NFL owners that do not care about player health...just like you make a good pimp for oil and coal companies....and you would have made a good pimp for horse breeders and horse and buggy manufacturers about 120 years ago. (because of your similar flawed logic and narrow mindedness about the viability of EV's)


Again, this kind of narrow mindedness and flawed logic are eerily similar to these famous "predictions (https://www.pcworld.com/article/532605/worst_tech_predictions.html)"....


“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.”
Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943


“Television won’t be able to hold on to any market it captures after the first six months. People will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night.”
Darryl Zanuck, executive at 20th Century Fox, 1946



“There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.”
Ken Olsen, founder of Digital Equipment Corporation, 1977


“Almost all of the many predictions now being made about 1996 hinge on the Internet’s continuing exponential growth. But I predict the Internet will soon go spectacularly supernova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse.”
Robert Metcalfe, founder of 3Com, 1995


“Apple is already dead.”
Nathan Myhrvold, former Microsoft CTO, 1997


“Two years from now, spam will be solved.”
Bill Gates, founder of Microsoft, 2004



Maybe the all-time narrow-minded, shortsighted baloney (https://www.forbes.com/sites/bensin/2017/01/09/these-are-the-people-who-thought-the-iphone-would-fail/?sh=2dace5a6544e)….


"There’s no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance. It’s a $500 subsidized item. They may make a lot of money. But if you actually take a look at the 1.3 billion phones that get sold, I’d prefer to have our software in 60% or 70% or 80% of them, than I would to have 2% or 3%, which is what Apple might get."
Steve Ballmer CEO Microsoft 2007 before iPhone was introduced.
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[Goobylal]

Irrelevant. I have addressed that canard several times.

In fact, the whole question "Is there a domed stadium anywhere in the world that has a grass field that doesn't use a tray system like in Arizona or LV?" is a canard since (as far as I can tell) there are NO domed stadiums in use outside the US for major professional soccer or rugby. If you can find one, let us know.

In FACT, in order for the FIFA World Cup to be played US stadiums, they MUST install grass whether they are a dome or not. Most major international soccer leagues REQUIRE a grass field.

The MAIN REASON that NFL teams do not "grow grass in a dome" besides using a tray system like Arizona and LV is because the NFL does NOT REQUIRE GRASS FIELDS (Like I believe they SHOULD).

When the NFLPA makes it a priority in CBA negotiations, (that could very well come to fruition when the current CBA expires in March 2020) and they DO force the NFL to REQUIRE grass fields, we will see domed stadiums having grass fields....whether they use the extremely viable LED lighting system or incorporate a tray system will be the only question.

You are falling into the same hole of narrow minded thinking and deeply flawed logic (actually the almost total LACK of logic) that sukie is (and as he does global warming, fossil fuel use and the viability of EV's).

So the answer would be "no." Thank you.

[DetoxTent]

So the answer would be "no." Thank you.

LOL.

[notacon]

So the answer would be "no." Thank you.

That is FALSE!!!!

The answer is "as far as I can tell there are NO domed stadiums in use outside the US for major professional soccer or rugby. If you can find one, let us know"

In any event it is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT CANARD.

My premise, which no one has come close to refuting, is that the reasons given to NOT require grass fields in the NFL are BOGUS!!!! From it "costing too much"....NONSENSE....to "you can't maintain grass filed is a dome"...total GARBAGE. THAT is being done ALREADY (on a limited basis).

In FACT, the Bills game in England is an example of how a grass field can be maintained without the sun. The Tottenham Hostspur stadium has a turf field UNDER the grass field (like every professional soccer team, they play on grass...NOT turf). They move the grass field UNDER a CAR PARK next to the stadium when they have concerts and, believe it or not, NFL football games.

Yeah...the same ****ty turf field that the players LOUDLY denounced as being like "F--king Cement (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10092634-bills-player-calls-tottenham-stadium-turf-f--king-cement-after-loss-vs-jaguars)".

The grass field is maintained under the car park with automatic grass cutting, watering and...OF COURSE LIKE I SAID...LED lighting (https://www.ns-businesshub.com/technology/tottenham-hotspur-stadium-technology/). The stadium itself has integrated "Stadium Grow Lighting" that assists maintaining grass. If you can "maintain a grass" for two weeks (at least) field with LED lighting you can maintain it for a NFL season.


I have no ****ing clue why you and sukie are ****ting on NFL player's well being and health. It's inexplicable.

NFL field surfaces are a growing concern to players as evidenced by the subject of this thread...."92% of NFL players want grass field". Why are you spitting in their faces and disrespecting them????

WOW!!!

Maybe you are of the mindset of "shut up and play"?!?!?

There are several ways that the NFL can (and I suspect almost assuredly WILL eventually) REQUIRE GRASS FIELDS FOR ALL NFL GAMES.

First of all the advent of "hybrid grass" where synthetic fibers are used to fortify the grass has been in use in Green Bay and Philadelphia for years . It will probably be the field surface in the new Bills stadium.

When the 2030 CBA negotiations start, it is quite easy to see the trade off of starting the movement to grass in exchange for what the owners want BADLY....a 18 game season. With two bye weeks. The wear and tear of every NFL player's body BECAUSE of turf field are a pretty big factor in why 17 game season is difficult. Not surprisingly the two Super Bowl teams this year also had some of the fewest number of games missed by starters....both KC and San Fran have grass fields.

The change would not have to be immediate. There are 15 out of 30 stadiums (two stadiums have two teams, NY and LA) that do not play on grass. Seven of those stadiums can be immediately changed without much muss or fuss simply requiring that every stadium that is open air and has turf change to grass. That involves these seven...

Carolina's Bank of America Stadium
Cincinnati Bengals Paycor Stdium
New England Patriots Gillette Stadium
NY Giants/Jets Metlife Stadium (there is talk of them keeping the grass field that will be installed in order to host the FIFA Word Cup in 2026)
Seattle Seahawks Lumen Field
Tennessee Titans Nissan Stadium

Although the Buffalo Bills stadium has turf today, it will be grass in the new stadium....so that means six open air stadiums could immediately be required to install grass.

There are eight NFL domed stadiums....most of which have a retractable roof, or in the case of SoFi...a translucent roof, letting plenty of sunshine in....

Atlanta Mercedes-Benz Stadium - Retractable
Dallas AT&T Stadium - Retractable
Detroit Ford Field
Houston NRG Stadium - Retractable
Indianapolis Lucas Oil Stadium - Retractable
Los Angeles SoFi Stadium
Minnesota U.S. Bank Stadium
New Orleans Caesars Superdome

Atlanta, LA, Houston dome stadiums are installing temporary grass fields to host 2026 FIFA world cup. Two other open air stadiums are installing grass to do the same...New England and NJ/NY.

A retractable dome would make grass field much simpler to maintain.

That leaves only FOUR dome stadiums, without retractable roof that installing grass field would be more problematic but ABSOLUTELY EXTREMELY POSSIBLE!!!!!

More likely would be the simple requirement that ANY new stadium MUST HAVE GRASS FIELD!!!! A grandfathering model.

The four domes that do not have a retractable roof are....

Detroit Ford Field - 22 years old
Los Angeles SoFi Stadium (but roof is translucent) - 4 years old
Minnesota U.S. Bank Stadium - 8 years old
New Orleans Caesars Superdome - 53 years old.

It's still astounding that they spend $5 BILLION on SoFi and refused to put a grass field. Jesus. Make them install a tray system if they don't want to go the LED (the roof is translucent so it would not take much)

Detroit & New Orleans will probably want to build new stadiums in the next 10+ years (the CBA expires in 6 years). Minnesota would just have to go to LED and grow light system.

My premise that requiring grass field in the NFL is not only is desirable, but extremely viable goes non-refuted.

[sukie]

I stopped after no stadiums with non retracting domes grow grass without the rail system.

it is not proven that it can be done and saying it is with bold text scattered through 9 paragraphs doesn’t change that fact.

soccer is not as hard on natural grass as football is.

it is “no” until someone shows that it can be done. Don’t put up the Tottenham field as an example. Milano will crack you in the mouth.

[notacon]

I stopped after no stadiums with non retracting domes grow grass without the rail system.

it is not proven that it can be done and saying it is with bold text scattered through 9 paragraphs doesn’t change that fact.

soccer is not as hard on natural grass as football is.

it is “no” until someone shows that it can be done. Don’t put up the Tottenham field as an example. Milano will crack you in the mouth.

Of course you did. :rofl:

You don't want to know the facts and are stuck into your narrow minded position that ****s on players, besides the fact that you cannot come close refuting my premises.

It is NOT a "no" and it already HAS been shown that it can be done. You are just too blind to to see it and too stubborn to admit it.

Whatever, I don't need you to see reality (or read my spot on posts) nor do I need to to admit that your mindset is child-like and your refusal show any shred of intellectual honesty has you mired in the same sort of small-minded tunnel vision illustrated by the ludicrous quotes questioning the future of TV's, computers and the iPhone that have not aged very well, like wine that turned to vinegar.


The facts and unerring logic stands on it's own.

[sukie]

The FACTS are that the technology to grow grass indoors in Minnesota strong enough to handle football doesn’t exist outside the drawing board.

[notacon]

The FACTS are that the technology to grow grass indoors in Minnesota strong enough to handle football doesn’t exist outside the drawing board.

Total unmitigated NONSENSE!!!!!

[sukie]

Total unmitigated NONSENSE!!!!!
List the stadiums then. The ones attempting or have succeeded in growing Football ready grass indoors without roof retraction or a rail system. I will wait.

if there isn’t any then it isn’t me spewing nonsense in an unmitigated error.

just a list. No need for paragraphs.

[Goobylal]

List the stadiums then. The ones attempting or have succeeded in growing Football ready grass indoors without roof retraction or a rail system. I will wait.

if there isn’t any then it isn’t me spewing nonsense in an unmitigated error.

just a list. No need for paragraphs.

Yeah, if it can be done, why install even more expensive retractable roofs or tray/rail systems?

[notacon]

List the stadiums then. The ones attempting or have succeeded in growing Football ready grass indoors without roof retraction or a rail system. I will wait.

if there isn’t any then it isn’t me spewing nonsense in an unmitigated error.

just a list. No need for paragraphs.


I already went through many of the possibilities and realities. You admit to not even reading my full posts.


This is going nowhere...so, I'll leave you to your own bully button gazing.

[sukie]

Because growing nfl grass indoors isn’t a thing without retracting a roof and if a rail system. You said it yourself…possibilities.

take your L.

[notacon]

Because growing nfl grass indoors isn’t a thing without retracting a roof and if a rail system. You said it yourself…possibilities.

take your L.

I have to respond to this dishonest lack of logic or common sense before I look away as you continue gazing at your bellybutton.

Yes, I am talking about the “possibilities” of maintaining a grass field inside a dome that does not have a retractable roof or a tray system….in reality that (as of today) is only TWO stadiums. Detroit's Ford Field & New Orleans Superdome…...Minnesota's U.S. Bank Stadium & Los Angeles' SoFi Stadium feature translucent roofs that let in a considerable amount of natural sunlight.

My undeniable premise is that IS “POSSIBLE” TODAY!!!!! Absolutely and without any shred of doubt, even in Ford Field and The Superdome.

I am not saying (in ANY way, shape or form) that ANY stadium IS doing that today.

Your total lack of any shred of common sense and non-logic is YOU saying that since no domed stadium without a retractable roof or a tray system that somehow, illogically and stupidly means that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE.


THAT IS SILLY FALSE RUBBISH.

Additionally, I have said, several times, that the NFL owners will NOT do what IS possible (and not as expensive as they claim…installing and maintaining grass field in all stadiums) irrespective of it being in a closed dome UNTIL FORCED TO DO SO BY THE NFL.

In all likelihood, that will NOT come to pass until the NFLPA insists on it…possibly in the 2030 CBA.

There is NO “loss” for me to take. How lame and childish.

YOU need take ownership of misrepresenting my premise and having a narrow mindedness that, for all intents and purposes, defends and makes excuses for filthy rich NFL owners while ****ting on players health, well-being and preferences in their work environment that very well could extend their careers and make them more effective players in a long NFL season.

[sukie]

The angle of sunlight hitting the translucent roof in Minnesota in the months mid November to spring does not afford enough grow worthy sunlight. Has it been tested to allow enough vital light in during summer months? It’s not just light that is needed. The correct light but you knew that.

so possibilities are realities? Mmmkay.







(take the L)

[Typ0]

If they can grow huge fields of weed inside they can grow huge fields of any kind of grass inside. If we can get a grip on fusion maybe we can grow wheat crops when the next ice age gets here.

[Goobylal]

If they can grow huge fields of weed inside they can grow huge fields of any kind of grass inside. If we can get a grip on fusion maybe we can grow wheat crops when the next ice age gets here.

Then why did Arizona and LV install expensive tray/rail systems?

[notacon]

The angle of sunlight hitting the translucent roof in Minnesota in the months mid November to spring does not afford enough grow worthy sunlight. Has it been tested to allow enough vital light in during summer months? It’s not just light that is needed. The correct light but you knew that.

so possibilities are realities? Mmmkay.







(take the L)
https://rationalfaiths.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Navel-Gazing.jpg

[notacon]

If they can grow huge fields of weed inside they can grow huge fields of any kind of grass inside. If we can get a grip on fusion maybe we can grow wheat crops when the next ice age gets here.


Maybe the NFL can play on this surface that they installed in MetLife Stadium last week....

https://saltwire.imgix.net/2024/2/20/nhl-players-laud-electric-atmosphere-of-stadium-series-games.jpg?cs=srgb&fit=crop&h=568&w=847&dpr=1&auto=format%2Ccompress%2Cenhance

[notacon]

Then why did Arizona and LV install expensive tray/rail systems?
Of course you have to ask them.

But thee are several reasonable reasons why.

First, it was not that expensive. In LV case about $21M that is all inclusive. The rail system is only a part of that cost. Depending on the exact surface and type of fill it costs up to $10M to install a turf field. And there are still maintenance costs although not as much as grass.

With the reality that both Arizona and Las Vegas have about 300 days of sunshine it's not necessarily cost effective (over the long haul) to install and power artificial lighting. Like WHY would they do that with 300+ days of sunshine??? DUH!!!!

Most importantly, (especially in Las Vegas) the venue is used for a myriad of non-football events...including HUGE concerts including Elton Josh, Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Rolling Stones (in 2021 coming back in 2024) and Billy Joel with Sting in 2024 (my wife and I are considering going to that one), 57th Academy of Country Music Awards, Monster Truck Show and WWE Summer Slam which all have a stage, seating and thousand of fans on the field area.

Instead of having to protect the field (or deal with extensive damage from these events) it's easier and cheaper to just roll the field out and use the concrete foundation to hold these events.

The point is not that maintaining a grass field inside a dome with LED lighting is desirable or a more suitable option than using a tray system, the point is that it is absolutely POSSIBLE TODAY!!!!

As I surmised in another post (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5085276&viewfull=1#post5085276), this change can be done over time, starting with the decision to FORCE NFL stadiums to have grass...possibly in 2030 via the next NFL CBA.

First require the SIX open air stadiums that use turf today to install grass immediately. EASY PEASY!!!!

Second, REQUIRE that ANY new stadium has a grass field. Third, (without massive changes) supplement, with LED's the natural light that already is there in SIX stadiums that have either a retractable roof or translucent roof.

In reality, that leaves just TWO stadiums that are pure, closed, non translucent roof that pose the biggest problems....Detroit Ford Filed (22 years old today) and New Orleans Superdome (53 years old today).

It would be easy to suspect that both of these cites would, after 2030, agree to build new stadiums that make the use of grass easier. Stadium use is NOT static. Any owner with a stadium older than 20 years (in 2030) will almost assuredly be pining for a new one.

The issue with the naysayers and skeptics is (once again it is very apparent) are steeped in narrow, short sighted lack of vision.

[notacon]

BTW sukie, the "correct light" is easier to provide with LED lighting (complete control over intensity, duration and, most critically, color spectrum) than relying of the fickle sun.

[sukie]

BTW sukie, the "correct light" is easier to provide with LED lighting (complete control over intensity, duration and, most critically, color spectrum) than relying of the fickle sun.

and that had been applied to indoor football stadiums where? Oh on a napkin at a bar somewhere.

[sukie]

Maybe the NFL can play on this surface that they installed in MetLife Stadium last week....

https://saltwire.imgix.net/2024/2/20/nhl-players-laud-electric-atmosphere-of-stadium-series-games.jpg?cs=srgb&fit=crop&h=568&w=847&dpr=1&auto=format%2Ccompress%2Cenhance

Grow Lighting was perfect to crystallize water. It’s all about the LEDs

[notacon]

and that had been applied to indoor football stadiums where? Oh on a napkin at a bar somewhere.


https://s3-prod.modernhealthcare.com/s3fs-public/styles/width_792/public/MAGAZINE_307259939_AR_-1_0.jpg

[sukie]

Nice dodge.

[notacon]

Nice dodge.

:rofl: No "dodge"....I already easily brushed aside your lame arguments and narrow, short-sighted closed minded baloney.

Just go back and read everything I wrote on this thread...it destroys the insipid rubbish you have tried on. Of course, you already admit to not actually reading what I write, so you are content with being mired in your own ignorance.


https://i.pinimg.com/236x/4e/b3/57/4eb3571ec5280e5896e98bfebf888c10.jpg

[Goobylal]

If grass could be grown feasibly in enclosed stadiums without a tray system, they'd be doing it already. Otherwise the Cardinals and Raiders wouldn't have gone through the added and significant extra expense of installing said tray systems.

Grass is better when it's not frigid and early in the season. Outside of those, AT is probably better.

I'm glad the Bills are going to a heated grass field with the new stadium. It will help attract players from a greater pool.

[Typ0]

If grass could be grown feasibly in enclosed stadiums without a tray system, they'd be doing it already. Otherwise the Cardinals and Raiders wouldn't have gone through the added and significant extra expense of installing said tray systems.

Grass is better when it's not frigid and early in the season. Outside of those, AT is probably better.

I'm glad the Bills are going to a heated grass field with the new stadium. It will help attract players from a greater pool.

I think the added and extra expense actually ends up being less because you don't have to generate any power to create the right environment for the grass.

[notacon]

If grass could be grown feasibly in enclosed stadiums without a tray system, they'd be doing it already. Otherwise the Cardinals and Raiders wouldn't have gone through the added and significant extra expense of installing said tray systems.

Grass is better when it's not frigid and early in the season. Outside of those, AT is probably better.

I'm glad the Bills are going to a heated grass field with the new stadium. It will help attract players from a greater pool.
Total nonsense. I mean really total nonsense.

"They", meaning NFL owners, will only even think about attempting to maintain....you do not have to "grow grass".....and in fact NO grass fields are the result of "growing grass"....they ALL get sod that is grown somewhere else and most grass field have their sod replaced at least once a year if not several times (In FACT, the grass field for the Super Bowl was NEW SOD that was installed weeks before the game....which is exactly what happened in Arizona for last year's SB....the issue with the bad field last year was it was not cared for properly after it was installed)....

....grass fields inside a dome WHEN THEY ARE FORCED TO DO SO!!!!!


When they are FORCED TO DO SO, they will find a way by many of the solutions that I have outlined and are eminently feasible TODAY. There is NO NEED to do so until the NFL (with pressure from the NFLPA) REQUIRES ALL NFL games to be played on grass fields.

[Goobylal]

Total nonsense. I mean really total nonsense.

"They", meaning NFL owners, will only even think about attempting to maintain....you do not have to "grow grass".....and in fact NO grass fields are the result of "growing grass"....they ALL get sod that is grown somewhere else and most grass field have their sod replaced at least once a year if not several times (In FACT, the grass field for the Super Bowl was NEW SOD that was installed weeks before the game....which is exactly what happened in Arizona for last year's SB....the issue with the bad field last year was it was not cared for properly after it was installed)....

....grass fields inside a dome WHEN THEY ARE FORCED TO DO SO!!!!!


When they are FORCED TO DO SO, they will find a way by many of the solutions that I have outlined and are eminently feasible TODAY. There is NO NEED to do so until the NFL (with pressure from the NFLPA) REQUIRES ALL NFL games to be played on grass fields.

How much does it cost to sod a field?

[notacon]

How much does it cost to sod a field?

Why are you asking me?? Do your own homework.

I've already done enough. Read my posts...really read (and check out the numerous links I provided) them and try to comprehend (it's easy...nothing complicated) what I am actually saying and not what you think I'm saying.

WHY are you taking the side of GREEDY NFL owners and, basically, ****TING AL OVER the players, their well being, health and preferences for their work environment?!?!?!

It's insanely INEXPLICABLE!!!!

[sukie]

Notty link 1 Baltimore grass field . No duh!!!!! Using grow lights . Duh again

Notty link 2 Vegas… rail system works!!! Duh!

Notty link 3. Fully domed stadium has artificial grass grown with grow lights and can withstand testing by the beast.

(I made that last one up)

[notacon]

Jesus. I have rebutted every single specious argument concerning the viability in every NFL stadium today and no one has come close to credibly refuting any of the premises I have put forward (with supporting information) and I even laid out a reasonable way forward to make the smart move toward requiring grass field for all NFL games.

Yet, some confused naysayers STILL cannot and will not explain WHY they are taking the side of GREEDY NFL owners and, basically, ****TING ALL OVER the players, their well being, health and preferences for their work environment?!?!?!

It's insanely INEXPLICABLE!!!!

[sukie]

Not taking the side of greedy NFL owners… just stating that the tech to grow turf indoors isn’t NFL ready. You keep saying it is and we collectively say “where”.

Thats where the drink ringed napkin scribble comes in.

because I tell you that a solar powered bus doesn’t exist and you show me a picture of a bus with photoshopped solar panels on top doesn’t make it exist. Sure Bus tech is there and solar power tech is there but together?

[Turf]

I thought it was 93%.......

[Goobylal]

Jesus. I have rebutted every single specious argument concerning the viability in every NFL stadium today and no one has come close to credibly refuting any of the premises I have put forward (with supporting information) and I even laid out a reasonable way forward to make the smart move toward requiring grass field for all NFL games.

Yet, some confused naysayers STILL cannot and will not explain WHY they are taking the side of GREEDY NFL owners and, basically, ****TING ALL OVER the players, their well being, health and preferences for their work environment?!?!?!

It's insanely INEXPLICABLE!!!!

While it is partly a matter of cost, it's also a huge waste of resources. You need to keep the lights/electricity going all the time, water it, etc. All for 3 hours on a Sunday eight to ten days a year.

[notacon]

Not taking the side of greedy NFL owners… just stating that the tech to grow turf indoors isn’t NFL ready. You keep saying it is and we collectively say “where”.

Thats where the drink ringed napkin scribble comes in.

because I tell you that a solar powered bus doesn’t exist and you show me a picture of a bus with photoshopped solar panels on top doesn’t make it exist. Sure Bus tech is there and solar power tech is there but together?

Yes, you are.

[notacon]

While it is partly a matter of cost, it's also a huge waste of resources. You need to keep the lights/electricity going all the time, water it, etc. All for 3 hours on a Sunday eight to ten days a year.
What lame arguments.

NFL teams are wildly profitable. The cost baloney is really dumb. The "waste of resources" canard is even dumber.

One can apply the "All for 3 hours on a Sunday eight to ten days a year" premise to everything surrounding NFL football. Especially BILLION DOLLAR PLUS stadiums. NFL football could be played on a studio stage (preferably outside on grass) since TV and broadcasting is where most of the money comes from.

We already saw that a NFL season can be extremely successful with almost NO CROWDS. Stadiums, in and of themselves are "huge waste of resources".

So, you are virtually admitting to taking the side of GREEDY NFL owners and, basically, ****TING ALL OVER the players, their well being, health and preferences for their work environment?!?!?!

[sukie]

Yes, you are.
You failed to comprehend the rest of my post.

oh, I see with your response to Goob… you won’t address the 100% indoor lack of grass anywhere in the planet that would take an NFL pounding.

[notacon]

You failed to comprehend the rest of my post.

oh, I see with your response to Goob… you won’t address the 100% indoor lack of grass anywhere in the planet that would take an NFL pounding.

Oh I comprehend all of your post. Unlike you, I read them in full.

It's undeniably clear....you are taking the side of GREEDY NFL owners and, basically, ****TING ALL OVER the players, their well being, health and preferences for their work environment?!?!?!

It's insanely INEXPLICABLE!!!!

[sukie]

Okay if I admit that I sleep with fat sweaty NFL owners and do hourly reach around handies… will you address the rest of my posts?

where is turf used fully indoors utilizing grow lights to produce a NFL durable playing surface. Anywhere in the world?

[Woodman]

Okay if I admit that I sleep with fat sweaty NFL owners and do hourly reach around handies… will you address the rest of my posts?

where is turf used fully indoors utilizing grow lights to produce a NFL durable playing surface. Anywhere in the world?

Uruguay?

[notacon]

Okay if I admit that I sleep with fat sweaty NFL owners and do hourly reach around handies… will you address the rest of my posts?

where is turf used fully indoors utilizing grow lights to produce a NFL durable playing surface. Anywhere in the world?


I already did "address the rest of (your) posts". Pay attention and, you know, actually READ them.

[notacon]

Uruguay?

As I noted above (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5085276&viewfull=1#post5085276)...."as far as I can tell there are NO domed stadiums in use outside the US for major professional soccer or rugby. If you can find one, let us know"

The question is a canard and irreverent.

The more salient question is WHY is the US the ONLY country that has major professional sports played inside a ****ing dome.

And WHY does the NFL NOT adopt the standards that most other major sports leagues around the world have adopted that their sport (mainly soccer and rugby) be played ON GRASS!!!!

That is why several US domed stadiums (and those without a dome) that have turf MUST change to grass in order to hold the 2026 FIFA World Cup matches.

[Goobylal]

What lame arguments.

NFL teams are wildly profitable. The cost baloney is really dumb. The "waste of resources" canard is even dumber.

One can apply the "All for 3 hours on a Sunday eight to ten days a year" premise to everything surrounding NFL football. Especially BILLION DOLLAR PLUS stadiums. NFL football could be played on a studio stage (preferably outside on grass) since TV and broadcasting is where most of the money comes from.

We already saw that a NFL season can be extremely successful with almost NO CROWDS. Stadiums, in and of themselves are "huge waste of resources".

So, you are virtually admitting to taking the side of GREEDY NFL owners and, basically, ****TING ALL OVER the players, their well being, health and preferences for their work environment?!?!?!

I root for the laundry. Players come and go after several years but owners/teams typically remain for decades.

And a lot of workers don't get to choose every aspect of their work environment to make it 100% of their liking. If an NFL player feels so strongly about the playing surface, he can ask for a trade, or if he's a FA, cross off teams with artificial turf.

[sukie]

As I noted above (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5085276&viewfull=1#post5085276)...."as far as I can tell there are NO domed stadiums in use outside the US for major professional soccer or rugby. If you can find one, let us know"

The question is a canard and irreverent.

The more salient question is WHY is the US the ONLY country that has major professional sports played inside a ****ing dome.

And WHY does the NFL NOT adopt the standards that most other major sports leagues around the world have adopted that their sport (mainly soccer and rugby) be played ON GRASS!!!!

That is why several US domed stadiums (and those without a dome) that have turf MUST change to grass in order to hold the 2026 FIFA World Cup matches.

Coming from someone that stated that the Bills should have a dome in Orchard Park or open air downtown… a dome advocate should be able to answer the salient question

[DraftBoy]

As I noted above (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5085276&viewfull=1#post5085276)...."as far as I can tell there are NO domed stadiums in use outside the US for major professional soccer or rugby. If you can find one, let us know"

The question is a canard and irreverent.

The more salient question is WHY is the US the ONLY country that has major professional sports played inside a ****ing dome.

And WHY does the NFL NOT adopt the standards that most other major sports leagues around the world have adopted that their sport (mainly soccer and rugby) be played ON GRASS!!!!

That is why several US domed stadiums (and those without a dome) that have turf MUST change to grass in order to hold the 2026 FIFA World Cup matches.

Because fans allow it to happen. If you truly want to find a party at fault then put that blame on the fans that couldn’t give any **** what surface the players are forced to play on and happily subsidize the building of domes through tax breaks and direct payments for new stadium construction.

For as passionate an argument as you want to make you’re not stopping your viewing, buying of merch, or attending games over this issue. Which is why nothing changes, same with the refs, and the other litany of items that fans love to complain about, but aren’t willing to do anything about.

[notacon]

Coming from someone that stated that the Bills should have a dome in Orchard Park or open air downtown… a dome advocate should be able to answer the salient question

My #1 preference BY FAR was an open air stadium in (or actually near) downtown.

I'm not sure what I ever said about a "dome in OP". If you have a actual quote of what exactly I said, with full context, than dish it up. The effort (from you) to make my stated preferences for an "open air downtown" on EQUAL FOOTING as a "dome in Orchard Park" is specious at best, downright dishonest in reality.

In any event, if the Bills built a domed stadium I would be in the forefront to insist they have a grass field. Which would probably be easier to maintain grass field indoors than in the worst location possible in WNY, in the middle of the snowbelt.

Your lame attempt at trying to frame my position (preference of new stadium location and type) as in conflict is dumb since I already know that maintaining a grass field is extremely viable and possible inside a dome.

I have already answered "the salient question". What are you whining about????

You are flailing sukie.

[notacon]

I root for the laundry. Players come and go after several years but owners/teams typically remain for decades.

And a lot of workers don't get to choose every aspect of their work environment to make it 100% of their liking. If an NFL player feels so strongly about the playing surface, he can ask for a trade, or if he's a FA, cross off teams with artificial turf.

So, you are not only admitting to, bit are proud to be taking the side of GREEDY NFL owners and, basically, ****TING ALL OVER the players, their well being, health and preferences for their work environment?!?!?!

Wow!

[notacon]

Because fans allow it to happen. If you truly want to find a party at fault then put that blame on the fans that couldn’t give any **** what surface the players are forced to play on and happily subsidize the building of domes through tax breaks and direct payments for new stadium construction.

For as passionate an argument as you want to make you’re not stopping your viewing, buying of merch, or attending games over this issue. Which is why nothing changes, same with the refs, and the other litany of items that fans love to complain about, but aren’t willing to do anything about.

This argument is such a stretch. Really??? You want to blame the FANS?!?!?! Oy vey!!!

[sukie]

Not hunting for it again. You stated that you preferred a stadium downtown and if they couldn’t afford a downtown stadium open air then at least put a dome in the snow belt middle of no where location.

[Goobylal]

So, you are not only admitting to, bit are proud to be taking the side of GREEDY NFL owners and, basically, ****TING ALL OVER the players, their well being, health and preferences for their work environment?!?!?!

Wow!

Again, if they really feel that strongly about it, they have options. Like not playing at all.

[notacon]

Not hunting for it again. You stated that you preferred a stadium downtown and if they couldn’t afford a downtown stadium open air then at least put a dome in the snow belt middle of no where location.


That is irreverent to the subject of what kind of field NFL should play on. IF I wrote "...if they couldn’t afford a downtown stadium open air then at least put a dome in the snow belt" that has NOTHING to do with a grass field.

In FACT, in June last year a confused poster (rather stupidly) criticized the heating a grass field after it was announced that the Bills would install one in the new stadium, with this silly misnomer of ignorance...


Heated grass = warm mud, is anyone still playing in their yard come December ?

I responded with the same reasoning (and rock solid premise) that "Non-grass stadiums should be banned in the NFL. Even for domes". Here is my post from then....


Yep. The Packers play on one of the most advanced “grass” fields in the NFL.....”GrassMaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GrassMaster)”. Besides heating it, GrassMaster “reinforces a natural grass pitch by vertically inserting 20 million polypropylene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polypropylene) (PP) fibres into the soil equally spread over the entire playing field.”


It is widely used around the world for soccer stadiums (the list is extensive...see the link above) as most soccer league require grass fields.

Philadelphia is the other stadium that uses the same technology. Here is a list of the various field types (https://en.as.com/nfl/what-nfl-stadiums-have-real-grass-what-kind-of-grass-do-they-have-n-2/) for each NFL stadium....




Arizona Cardinals, State Farm Stadium, Bermuda grass
Atlanta Falcons, Mercedes-Benz Stadium, FieldTurf Revolution
Baltimore Ravens, M&T Bank Stadium, Bermuda grass
Buffalo Bills, Highmark Stadium, A-Turf Titan 50
Carolina Panthers, Bank of America Stadium, FieldTurf
Chicago Bears, Soldier Field, Kentucky bluegrass
Cincinnati Bengals, Paul Brown Stadium, UBU Speed Series S5-M Synthetic Turf
Cleveland Browns, FirstEnergy Stadium, Kentucky bluegrass
Dallas Cowboys, AT&T Stadium, Hellas Matrix Turf
Denver Broncos, Empower Field at Mile High, Kentucky bluegrass
Detroit Lions, Ford Field, FieldTurf Classic HD
Green Bay Packers, Lambeau Field, Desso GrassMaster
Houston Texans, NRG Stadium, Hellas Matrix Turf
Indianapolis Colts, Lucas Oil Stadium, Shaw Sports Momentum Pro
Jacksonville Jaguars, TIAA Bank Field, Bermuda grass
Kansas City Chiefs, Arrowhead Stadium, Bermuda grass
Las Vegas Raiders, Allegiant Stadium, Bermuda grass
Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Chargers, SoFi Stadium, Hellas Matrix Turf
Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Raymond James Stadium, Bermuda grass
Tennessee Titans, Nissan Stadium, Bermuda grass
Washington Football Team, FedExField, Bermuda grass
New Orleans Saints, Caesars Superdome, FieldTurf Revolution 360
New York Giants, New York Jets, MetLife Stadium, UBU Sports Speed Series S5-M Synthetic Turf
Philadelphia Eagles, Lincoln Financial Field, Desso GrassMaster
Pittsburgh Steelers, Heinz Field, Kentucky bluegrass
San Francisco 49ers, Levi’s Stadium, Bermuda grass, Perennial Ryegrass mixture
Seattle Seahawks, Lumen Field, FieldTurf Revolution 360



Non-grass stadiums should be banned in the NFL. Even for domes. All grass needs to grow is water and light. With today’s LED technology it is relatively easy (but not necessary cheap) to provide artificial “sunlight”.

The last 16 years of my career was with a photo/video lighting manufacturer, and LED technology has come a long way in that time. A different division of the company developed, manufactured and sold a portable lighting system that could grow marijuana.

Large indoor marijuana fields are lit by LEDS. (https://www.ledsmagazine.com/horticultural-lighting/article/14183163/implement-light-mapping-software-from-a-plant-perspective-to-improve-cannabis-grows)


https://img.ledsmagazine.com/files/base/ebm/leds/image/2020/10/2010LED_Fre_p01_NEW.5f7caa865b3d6.png?auto=format,compress&w=1050&h=590&fit=clip


LEDS are already being used in soccer stadiums (https://sglsystem.com/EN/ALL/1074/Grow-Light-Technology) to aid in grass growth year round. This is used to maintain “pitch” quality during the winter in cold climate locations.

http://sglsystem.com/images/news/SGL-LED-allianz-arena2.jpg


Domes are not commonly used for soccer but it is not a stretch to believe that LED technology can, in fact, grow and maintain grass in a domed stadium

With the vast wealth of the NFL they could relatively easily require grass fields in the name of player safety.

So, if you are lamely trying to illustrate inconsistencies in my opinion, you are WRONG, WRONG WRONG!!!

[notacon]

I root for the laundry. Players come and go after several years but owners/teams typically remain for decades.

And a lot of workers don't get to choose every aspect of their work environment to make it 100% of their liking. If an NFL player feels so strongly about the playing surface, he can ask for a trade, or if he's a FA, cross off teams with artificial turf.


Again, if they really feel that strongly about it, they have options. Like not playing at all.

There you go again with absurd absolutes.

In the real world, UNIONS do, IN FACT, negotiate many (saying "100% of their liking" is silly) work environment and WORKER SAFETY issues. They have done so for over 100 years.

In FACT, UPS workers have been asking for AC in their trucks for years. The latest contract (https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebanker/2023/08/23/ups-strike-averted-workers-gain-heat-protection/?sh=6d96ebf77607) (avoiding a crippling strike) included the long sought after addressing dangerous HEAT as it relates to HEALTH and WELL BEING of employees. The agreement institutes....



UPS had long resisted calls to add air conditioning to its fleet. The new contract includes an agreement to gradually equip the company’s fleet of vehicles with air conditioning systems, new heat shields and additional fans. The agreement requires in-cab air conditioning in most UPS delivery vehicles purchased after Jan. 1, 2024. Two fans would also be installed in package cars, which make up most of the company’s 93,000-vehicle fleet. Newer vehicles would also be equipped with exhaust heat shields.

Existing and newly purchased package cars would be fitted with air induction vents to alleviate extreme temperatures in the back of the vehicles where cargo is loaded and unloaded. Occupational Safety and Health Administration inspectors have documented heat indexes of 126 degrees Fahrenheit, and temperature readings provided to NBC News (https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/ups-drivers-track-get-air-conditioned-trucks-first-time-ever-rcna88460) taken by workers in their trucks in Arizona and Florida have shown temperatures above 150 degrees Fahrenheit. More than 100 UPS workers have been hospitalized for heat illnesses in recent years, with some falling so ill that they neared kidney failure.

Your other comment that "...if they really feel that strongly about it, they have options. Like not playing at all." shows the FACT that you are, gleefully, ****TING ALL OVER the players, their well being and health.

WOW.

I find that attitude disgusting and showing a shocking lack of concern for fellow human beings, but not surprising with your known (from discussions we have had in the past) political leanings.

[Goobylal]

There you go again with absurd absolutes.

In the real world, UNIONS do, IN FACT, negotiate many (saying "100% of their liking" is silly) work environment and WORKER SAFETY issues. They have done so for over 100 years.

In FACT, UPS workers have been asking for AC in their trucks for years. The latest contract (https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebanker/2023/08/23/ups-strike-averted-workers-gain-heat-protection/?sh=6d96ebf77607) (avoiding a crippling strike) included the long sought after addressing dangerous HEAT as it relates to HEALTH and WELL BEING of employees. The agreement institutes....


Your other comment that "...if they really feel that strongly about it, they have options. Like not playing at all." shows the FACT that you are, gleefully, ****TING ALL OVER the players, their well being and health.

WOW.

I find that attitude disgusting and showing a shocking lack of concern for fellow human beings, but not surprising with your known (from discussions we have had in the past) political leanings.

If you're worried about safety, you shouldn't watch the game at all like DB suggested. Or advocate for it to become flag football. It's a violent game and injuries happen. How far do you want to take this?

[DraftBoy]

This argument is such a stretch. Really??? You want to blame the FANS?!?!?! Oy vey!!!

So what you’re saying is that you don’t really care about this issue because grass or no grass won’t impact what you do regarding the league.

[sukie]

Soccer is not football as far as wear and tear on the grass surface. Every article mentions the difference in abuse an NFL game puts on a grass surface. Grow lights aid in growth but do not replace natural sunlight which would be required in Ford Field.

stop pasting 3 inches when the obstacle of natural grass inside a dome up north isn’t addressed.

if you want to ban domes then there ya go but we are talking real grass fully indoors and it’s not possible. Except via hypothesis.

(this post paid for by NFL owners super pac.)

[notacon]

Soccer is not football as far as wear and tear on the grass surface. Every article mentions the difference in abuse an NFL game puts on a grass surface. Grow lights aid in growth but do not replace natural sunlight which would be required in Ford Field.

stop pasting 3 inches when the obstacle of natural grass inside a dome up north isn’t addressed.

if you want to ban domes then there ya go but we are talking real grass fully indoors and it’s not possible. Except via hypothesis.

(this post paid for by NFL owners super pac.)

As I have already knocked down these lame arguments, they are not getting any better with age and repetition.

[notacon]

So what you’re saying is that you don’t really care about this issue because grass or no grass won’t impact what you do regarding the league.

Huh?!?!?

Are you seriously trying to cite what I do regarding the league?!?!?!?

As you suggest that I should stop watching NFL football because not all the games are played on grass?!?!?!?

What a specious and lame argument that is as nonsensical as it is stupid. :rolleyes:

[notacon]

If you're worried about safety, you shouldn't watch the game at all like DB suggested. Or advocate for it to become flag football. It's a violent game and injuries happen. How far do you want to take this?

Ditto with the 'specious and lame argument that is as nonsensical as it is stupid'.

Are you SO disrespectful of the players heath, well being and preference that you are rejecting the idea that the NFL require (sometime in the future, quite possibly it becomes a salient issue in 2020 CBS negotiations) grass fields?!?!?

REALLY!?!?!?

Maybe if you are NOT concerned about "safety" you will support getting rid of helmets and most of the rules that have been put in place to protect players heath.

You (and DB) can take your ludicrous suggestion that "you shouldn't watch the game at all" and shove it where even bight LED lights cannot reach.

[DraftBoy]

Huh?!?!?

Are you seriously trying to cite what I do regarding the league?!?!?!?

As you suggest that I should stop watching NFL football because not all the games are played on grass?!?!?!?

What a specious and lame argument that is as nonsensical as it is stupid. :rolleyes:

No, I don’t care what you do. But for all your theatrics and trying to demean others for their thoughts or opinions you’ve clearly demonstrated that it’s just over dramatization over an issue that you and others don’t really care about.

If it meant anything to you or others then we’d see action from the fans. Since that’s never going to happen because they don’t really care, the field situation is going to remain the same until the next CBA negotiations.

It’s just what it is. The entire debate is basically pointless.

[jamze132]

Notty being his grumpy self, ****ting all over EVERYONE else’s opinions. I’ve been saying it for years folks…if you don’t share notty’s opinion on something, he’ll insult you and dictate how you’re supposed to feel.

[Bill Cody]

Because fans allow it to happen. If you truly want to find a party at fault then put that blame on the fans that couldn’t give any **** what surface the players are forced to play on and happily subsidize the building of domes through tax breaks and direct payments for new stadium construction.

For as passionate an argument as you want to make you’re not stopping your viewing, buying of merch, or attending games over this issue. Which is why nothing changes, same with the refs, and the other litany of items that fans love to complain about, but aren’t willing to do anything about.

lol

No that's not why. How would the NFL even know if Noty and some other like minded fans were upset about this issue? Is he supposed to picket? Just nonsense.

The ones directly impacted by the surface of the fields is the players not the fans. And they have made their views as clear as day. The owners have chosen profits over player safety, it's undeniable, ridiculous and short sighted.

[DraftBoy]

lol

No that's not why. How would the NFL even know if Noty and some other like minded fans were upset about this issue? Is he supposed to picket? Just nonsense.

The ones directly impacted by the surface of the fields is the players not the fans. And they have made their views as clear as day. The owners have chosen profits over player safety, it's undeniable, ridiculous and short sighted.

I agree it’s nonsense. It would require fans to actually do something and be held accountable, which they have no desire or intention to do. It’s an unfortunate reality, but it’s not going to change any time soon.

[Bill Cody]

I agree it’s nonsense. It would require fans to actually do something and be held accountable, which they have no desire or intention to do. It’s an unfortunate reality, but it’s not going to change any time soon.

It isn't on the fans to do something. That's the nonsense part. Your idea is just silly. The players will need to demand this in this next CBA.

[sukie]

As I have already knocked down these lame arguments, they are not getting any better with age and repetition.
But you haven’t shown an indoor only stadium using grow lights alone to grow natural turf. You showed me open air soccer

soccer is not football. The only abuse the turf gets is the theatrical shin grabbing pain writhe

[DraftBoy]

It isn't on the fans to do something. That's the nonsense part. Your idea is just silly. The players will need to demand this in this next CBA.

The fans are the entire market, if they wanted something or truly cared about it they could do something. They don’t and they won’t so the point is moot.

If the players want it enough then they will get it in the next CBA, just going to have to give on something. Just basic negotiations.

[notacon]

Notty being his grumpy self, ****ting all over EVERYONE else’s opinions. I’ve been saying it for years folks…if you don’t share notty’s opinion on something, he’ll insult you and dictate how you’re supposed to feel.


Just stop it. Your posts drip of whiny crying.

Funny (actually, not funny, but expected from you because you are very poor at debating or discussing arguments)...you are doing EXACTLY of what you falsely accuse me of doing.

If one does not "share my opinion" I state why, back up up with facts and evidence that rebut the opposing opinion, supported by credible sources.

Jesus. THAT'S WHAT IS DONE ON FORUMS.....at least by intelligent people that know how to debate an issue. You obviously don't.

It is VERY TELLING that the ONLY post you choose to **** out here, is NOT about the subject at hand, nor do you have ANYTHING of value to contribute toward discussing the subject of the thread...no....you come here to INSULT me and whine like a baby....dictating how EVERYONE should argue their opinion.


YOU are the "being your grumpy self".

[notacon]

No, I don’t care what you do. But for all your theatrics and trying to demean others for their thoughts or opinions you’ve clearly demonstrated that it’s just over dramatization over an issue that you and others don’t really care about.

If it meant anything to you or others then we’d see action from the fans. Since that’s never going to happen because they don’t really care, the field situation is going to remain the same until the next CBA negotiations.

It’s just what it is. The entire debate is basically pointless.

Oh please.

The one engaging in "theatrics' is YOU (and Gooby) with the stupid, silly and inane "If you're worried about safety, you shouldn't watch the game at all like DB suggested."

YOU have been moaning for YEARS (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/261771-Balls-and-Goats?p=4980036&viewfull=1#post4980036) that "There is only one goal every year and that’s to win the Super Bowl, everything else is a failure." So, by your pathetic (lack of) logic, since the Bills are FAILURES every year....YOU should stop watching games.

Or...when one disagrees with a rule (let's say the enforcement of roughing the passer) they should shut up or stop watching the games?!?!?

Please...YOU stop the theatrics.

All I did support the players almost unanimous preference to play on grass fields (the subject of this thread)....which pretty much every major professional sport outside the US (like soccer) REQUIRES grass fields....and here in the US SEVERAL STADIUMS (including domes) are INSTALLING GRASS in order to have the FIFA World Cup played in their stadiums with solutions that are extremely viable and realistic with ways it CAN be done....and even a gave suggestions on how the NFLPA could negotiate the much needed change in 2030.

Well SUE ME for presented well thought our ideas, backed up by multiple sources and giving the idea serious consideration.

For all that TERRIBLE support of NFL players...I basically get 'If you don't like it...stop watching NFL football'

How pathetic!!!

[notacon]

lol

No that's not why. How would the NFL even know if Noty and some other like minded fans were upset about this issue? Is he supposed to picket? Just nonsense.

The ones directly impacted by the surface of the fields is the players not the fans. And they have made their views as clear as day. The owners have chosen profits over player safety, it's undeniable, ridiculous and short sighted.

Spot on Bill.

Of course, this is about the players. Who have made their preference extremely well known. And have brought up the issue with the owners, both by individual players speaking up, on the record, and the NFLPA making it an issue in public (https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/national/story/2023-09-13/nfl-players-association-calls-on-nfl-to-switch-all-fields-to-natural-grass).

The fans have NOTHING to do with this. The whole idea of laying this responsibility on he fans (by what....boycotting games and not buying merch?!?!?) is STUPID beyond measure. The same warped mindset would be to suggest that people refuse to buy stuff that is shipped via UPS before the workers finally won the hard fought concession for AC in their trucks?!?!? Dumb!!!

The NFL is starting to take this issue seriously. They HAS to when the biggest stars in the league (and what makes NFL the cash cow it is) speak up, and it keeps on coming up time and time again.

The bottom line is that in order to get the NFL and owners to do what almost every NFL players prefers, which they know will keep them healthier and probably prolong their already short careers (it's not only about injuries...the day to day, game to game punishment that playing on turf presents takes it's toll) is the NFLPA to make it an issue in negotiations for the 2030 CBA.

I have suggested that owners would want something in return for that concession and the perfect chip the players can give them is something every owner wants....an 18th regular season game.

This is between the owners and the players...NOT the fans. It behooves the owners to listen to the ONLY reason they have franchises which are a virtual cash making machine...the payers. Without them, they have nothing,.

[Bill Cody]

If you're worried about safety, you shouldn't watch the game at all like DB suggested. Or advocate for it to become flag football. It's a violent game and injuries happen. How far do you want to take this?

Grass is safer. And they need to improve the helmets. It shouldn't be a lot to ask. The league is PRINTING MONEY. It's just a discussion. You don't have to agree.

[DraftBoy]

Oh please.

The one engaging in "theatrics' is YOU (and Gooby) with the stupid, silly and inane "If you're worried about safety, you shouldn't watch the game at all like DB suggested."

YOU have been moaning for YEARS (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/261771-Balls-and-Goats?p=4980036&viewfull=1#post4980036) that "There is only one goal every year and that’s to win the Super Bowl, everything else is a failure." So, by your pathetic (lack of) logic, since the Bills are FAILURES every year....YOU should stop watching games.

Or...when one disagrees with a rule (let's say the enforcement of roughing the passer) they should shut up or stop watching the games?!?!?

Please...YOU stop the theatrics.

All I did support the players almost unanimous preference to play on grass fields (the subject of this thread)....which pretty much every major professional sport outside the US (like soccer) REQUIRES grass fields....and here in the US SEVERAL STADIUMS (including domes) are INSTALLING GRASS in order to have the FIFA World Cup played in their stadiums with solutions that are extremely viable and realistic with ways it CAN be done....and even a gave suggestions on how the NFLPA could negotiate the much needed change in 2030.

Well SUE ME for presented well thought our ideas, backed up by multiple sources and giving the idea serious consideration.

For all that TERRIBLE support of NFL players...I basically get 'If you don't like it...stop watching NFL football'

How pathetic!!!

All you’re doing is illustrating my point.

[Goobylal]

Grass is safer. And they need to improve the helmets. It shouldn't be a lot to ask. The league is PRINTING MONEY. It's just a discussion. You don't have to agree.

The Bills are going to a heated grass field in the new stadium and for that I am happy because more players will put them on their list and the field won't be rock hard during the winter months. But the reality is that there's nothing we fans can do about it, but the players certainly can. And they should if they're so worried about their health. Maybe it means giving-up something in the next CBA, but that would be worthwhile, no?

[jamze132]

Just stop it. Your posts drip of whiny crying.

Funny (actually, not funny, but expected from you because you are very poor at debating or discussing arguments)...you are doing EXACTLY of what you falsely accuse me of doing.

If one does not "share my opinion" I state why, back up up with facts and evidence that rebut the opposing opinion, supported by credible sources.

Jesus. THAT'S WHAT IS DONE ON FORUMS.....at least by intelligent people that know how to debate an issue. You obviously don't.

It is VERY TELLING that the ONLY post you choose to **** out here, is NOT about the subject at hand, nor do you have ANYTHING of value to contribute toward discussing the subject of the thread...no....you come here to INSULT me and whine like a baby....dictating how EVERYONE should argue their opinion.


YOU are the "being your grumpy self".

You’re arguing about grass. Case closed.

[notacon]

All you’re doing is illustrating my point.
No, I'm not. I'm illustrating perfectly that YOU are projecting.

I know I have won an argument hands down when the whining starts about how I post (dishonestly and childishly), not the content.


You’re arguing about grass. Case closed.

Huh??? What in the world are you talking about???

Yeah...the "case (is) closed" that you are whining about childish stuff, and have NOTHING of substance or value to contribute on a very serious subject.....and instead seem to be all consumed on insulting me. How sad for YOU.

And, no, I am not "arguing about grass" I am arguing about the safety of players and their almost unanimous preference to play on grass surfaces that does, in fact, effect their careers and longevity along with the in-season performance issues.

It is a HUGE issue in the NFL. Are you not paying attention???? Or do you care that little about players health and safety that you keep your head buried in the sand of ignorance

Any and every Bills fan should be intelligent enough to comprehend the seriousness of this issue since the past two years we have lost some of our best and most critical players to severe injures on turf. Tre' White TWICE.

Contrast the backwards NFL with virtually every other major sport in the world that already either mandates or does play on grass.

So much so that several US stadiums, many of which are domes, WILL INSTALL GRASS FIELDS so they can host the FIFA 2026 World Cup.

[notacon]

Grass is safer. And they need to improve the helmets. It shouldn't be a lot to ask. The league is PRINTING MONEY. It's just a discussion. You don't have to agree.
Duh??? Of course YOU get it.

Helmet improvements are an ongoing effort and I have read reports that tons of money is going into that effort.

There was a very relevant article today in ESPN that chronicles another critical issue....the inconsistency of NFL playing surfaces that plaques BOTH grass and turf. So much so that the NFL is testing a machine that can measure various element of playing surfaces as it relates to the "stickiness" of that surface.

"Stickiness" is THE most critical negatives of turf surfaces and what not only cause non-contact injuries, but also the day-to-day wear and tear on player's bodies.


How collecting data on playing surfaces could lead to consistency across the NFL (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/39660380/the-beast-machine-nfl-gathers-data-consistent-playing-surfaces)





WHEN QUARTERBACK AARON Rodgers (https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/8439/aaron-rodgers) suffered a season-ending left Achilles injury on the first drive of his New York Jets (https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/nyj/new-york-jets) career, the yearslong debate over playing surfaces began anew.

Before the severity of Rodgers' injury had been confirmed, calls for natural grass fields rang out across the NFL. The grass vs. turf debate continued to take center stage throughout the 2023 season as star players suffered noncontact injuries.

MetLife Stadium, the site of Rodgers' injury, had received so much criticism in the seasons leading up to his Jets debut that new turf had been installed before the 2023 offseason (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/36003498/new-field-turf-installed-metlife-stadium-home-giants-jets) -- to which Rodgers gave his approval.

Perhaps more than the surface composition itself, the lack of consistency from one field to the next is often the most frustrating aspect of the debate for players. The NFL acknowledges that, as of now, there are potentially too many different types of surfaces, both synthetic and natural grass.

"If you're not going to mandate grass, then why aren't all turf fields the exact same turf so guys get used to playing on the same turf everywhere?" San Francisco 49ers (https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/sf/san-francisco-49ers) tight end George Kittle (https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/3040151/george-kittle) asked.

"Every field has a different turf, so it's just like you're playing on a different surface. NBA guys don't play on different wood. Hockey guys don't play on different ices all the time ... So, I just wish we played on a surface that was similar week in and week out."

While several studies have been published comparing injury rates on various synthetic versus grass surfaces (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38624943/inside-nfl-turf-debate-injuries-safety-measures-morehttps:/www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38624943/inside-nfl-turf-debate-injuries-safety-measures-more), thus far there has not been a means of onsite testing of individual field surfaces through a biomechanical engineering lens.

Enter: the BEAST.

During the 2023 season, the NFL and NFLPA launched a pilot program involving a mobile machine that traveled to multiple stadiums to test various surfaces under a range of conditions, the first such testing ever done. Additionally, four stadiums -- MetLife in New Jersey, Ford Field in Detroit, Mercedes-Benz in Atlanta and AT&T Stadium in Dallas -- had a mobile unit housed at their facilities.

The aggregated 2023 data is being analyzed now. The NFL/NFLPA Engineering and Joint Field Surfaces Committees will meet to discuss early findings this offseason, and those parties will continue the dialogue as data collection continues. The plan is to formally present their analytics to the league and the players association after another year of data collection, sooner if there is a dramatic discovery worthy of immediate attention.

"If you had fewer, instead of 30 surfaces that all play differently, you had two, or three, or five surfaces ... [Players] are going to know what their bodies, their joints and muscles, could expect when they're participating on a surface," said Jeff Miller, NFL executive vice president of communications, policy and health and safety. "And therefore they would probably be less unhappy moving from surface to surface."

While local variations, including the environment, prohibit a single surface that will be suitable for all 30 NFL stadiums, the NFL and NFLPA hope the BEAST can provide recommended practices and better standardization across the league.

"We want to set the safety and performance goal," said Dr. Kristy Arbogast, a member of the joint NFL/NFLPA Engineering Committee who has worked with the NFLPA on injury prevention topics for the last decade, "and then hold all fields, whatever they're made of, to that target."

Much more…



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[DraftBoy]

No, I'm not. I'm illustrating perfectly that YOU are projecting.

I know I have won an argument hands down when the whining starts about how I post (dishonestly and childishly), not the content.



Huh??? What in the world are you talking about???

Yeah...the "case (is) closed" that you are whining about childish stuff, and have NOTHING of substance or value to contribute on a very serious subject.....and instead seem to be all consumed on insulting me. How sad for YOU.

And, no, I am not "arguing about grass" I am arguing about the safety of players and their almost unanimous preference to play on grass surfaces that does, in fact, effect their careers and longevity along with the in-season performance issues.

It is a HUGE issue in the NFL. Are you not paying attention???? Or do you care that little about players health and safety that you keep your head buried in the sand of ignorance

Any and every Bills fan should be intelligent enough to comprehend the seriousness of this issue since the past two years we have lost some of our best and most critical players to severe injures on turf. Tre' White TWICE.

Contrast the backwards NFL with virtually every other major sport in the world that already either mandates or does play on grass.

So much so that several US stadiums, many of which are domes, WILL INSTALL GRASS FIELDS so they can host the FIFA 2026 World Cup.

The fact that you have convinced yourself that there is an argument to win speaks volumes.

[notacon]

The fact that you have convinced yourself that there is an argument to win speaks volumes.

What in the world are you talking about???? Uhhhhh.....have you not been paying attention????


EVERYTHING here becomes an "argument". This subject is no different.


The "argument" that I did "win" is refuting (with facts and evidence backed up by credible sources) the vociferous push back to my common sense suggestions and presenting of facts backed up by multiple sources and reasonable premises.

[Bill Cody]

The Bills are going to a heated grass field in the new stadium and for that I am happy because more players will put them on their list and the field won't be rock hard during the winter months. But the reality is that there's nothing we fans can do about it, but the players certainly can. And they should if they're so worried about their health. Maybe it means giving-up something in the next CBA, but that would be worthwhile, no?

Sure it would. And you're right it is a players issue, please explain this to intentionally obtuse Draftboy. But the fact that owners have to be bribed to do the right thing is pretty nuts when they all have printing presses for greenbacks in their basements.

[DraftBoy]

What in the world are you talking about???? Uhhhhh.....have you not been paying attention????


EVERYTHING here becomes an "argument". This subject is no different.


The "argument" that I did "win" is refuting (with facts and evidence backed up by credible sources) the vociferous push back to my common sense suggestions and presenting of facts backed up by multiple sources and reasonable premises.

Again you’re only illustrating my original point.

[DraftBoy]

Sure it would. And you're right it is a players issue, please explain this to intentionally obtuse Draftboy. But the fact that owners have to be bribed to do the right thing is pretty nuts when they all have printing presses for greenbacks in their basements.

It’s always somebody else’s problem, never our problem. Where do you draw the line?

[Goobylal]

Sure it would. And you're right it is a players issue, please explain this to intentionally obtuse Draftboy. But the fact that owners have to be bribed to do the right thing is pretty nuts when they all have printing presses for greenbacks in their basements.

I would think that with what they pay players, doing anything they can to try and reduce player injuries and thus money lost would be incentive enough.

[Bill Cody]

It’s always somebody else’s problem, never our problem. Where do you draw the line?

With common sense. Try it.

- - - Updated - - -


I would think that with what they pay players, doing anything they can to try and reduce player injuries and thus money lost would be incentive enough.

agree

[DraftBoy]

With common sense. Try it.

If it’s common sense then just explain where the line is. You are the market, we don’t disagree on that, so when do you actually choose to wield that power v sit on your hands?

For the record the you in the question is plural, not specifically an allegation or accusation about you individually or personally.

[Bill Cody]

If it’s common sense then just explain where the line is. You are the market, we don’t disagree on that, so when do you actually choose to wield that power v sit on your hands?

For the record the you in the question is plural, not specifically an allegation or accusation about you individually or personally.

The common sense part is that no individual fan has ANY power. You could be furious about the league doing x,y or z and it simply doesn't make any difference unless you have millions and millions of others that agree and feel very strongly about it, whatever IT might be. With something like the NFL that would take something so drastic it's hard to even think of an example. Maybe an official corruption scandal? Advising people to not watch is pointless.

[notacon]

Again you’re only illustrating my original point.
What "original point"???

Lamely blaming the FANS (so obtuse and silly) for the NFL not requiring grass fields???? Or, the even more inane and incredibly ludicrous, as Gooby observed "you shouldn't watch the game at all like DB suggested"

Please. Stop with the the drama. It's dumb.

[notacon]

I would think that with what they pay players, doing anything they can to try and reduce player injuries and thus money lost would be incentive enough.

Have you not been paying attention to how billionaire think and act??? Especially your favorite one.

[Goobylal]

Have you not been paying attention to how billionaire think and act??? Especially your favorite one.

My favorite billionaire is putting in a grass field for the players.

[Bill Cody]

My favorite billionaire is putting in a grass field for the players.

lol

[DraftBoy]

The common sense part is that no individual fan has ANY power. You could be furious about the league doing x,y or z and it simply doesn't make any difference unless you have millions and millions of others that agree and feel very strongly about it, whatever IT might be. With something like the NFL that would take something so drastic it's hard to even think of an example. Maybe an official corruption scandal? Advising people to not watch is pointless.

Never about a single fan and I didn’t advise anybody to watch or not watch.

What I said is that if Nottie going to demean and dismiss another poster then he should at least have the decency to actually care about what he says and not just let the words ring hollow by his own actions.

We can say we care about player safety, but we all watched Hamlin nearly die on the field and then turned right around and kept watching. It’s just bull**** and blame shifting, our collective inability to be honest about that is one of the worst parts of fan culture.

[DraftBoy]

What "original point"???

Lamely blaming the FANS (so obtuse and silly) for the NFL not requiring grass fields???? Or, the even more inane and incredibly ludicrous, as Gooby observed "you shouldn't watch the game at all like DB suggested"

Please. Stop with the the drama. It's dumb.

I never said watch or don’t watch nor was it about grass fields.

[Goobylal]

lol

He is.

[notacon]

lol


Maybe I should have said "...ONE of your favorite billionaires".

[notacon]

I never said watch or don’t watch nor was it about grass fields.

What lame whining because your absurd (filed) insult that I am guilty of "theatrics"....with a dishonest misrepresentation of what I wrote.

I did not say that you said "watch or don't; watch"...what I DID say was 100% accurate...."...as Gooby observed "you shouldn't watch the game at all like DB suggested"

The fact is that when one presents very reasonable, coherent, common sense and accurate premise, and backs it up with a plethora of credible sources, labeling it "theatrics" simply because you cannot refute any of it is, in fact, an example of "theatrics"

- - - Updated - - -


Never about a single fan and I didn’t advise anybody to watch or not watch.

What I said is that if Nottie going to demean and dismiss another poster then he should at least have the decency to actually care about what he says and not just let the words ring hollow by his own actions.

We can say we care about player safety, but we all watched Hamlin nearly die on the field and then turned right around and kept watching. It’s just bull**** and blame shifting, our collective inability to be honest about that is one of the worst parts of fan culture.


More bull****.

[Bill Cody]

Never about a single fan and I didn’t advise anybody to watch or not watch.

What I said is that if Nottie going to demean and dismiss another poster then he should at least have the decency to actually care about what he says and not just let the words ring hollow by his own actions.

We can say we care about player safety, but we all watched Hamlin nearly die on the field and then turned right around and kept watching. It’s just bull**** and blame shifting, our collective inability to be honest about that is one of the worst parts of fan culture.

Dude most of your post exchanges devolve into this netherworld where you don't know what you've typed or even the point you're trying to make, exhausting.

[DraftBoy]

Dude most of your post exchanges devolve into this netherworld where you don't know what you've typed or even the point you're trying to make, exhausting.

If you’d like to point out where you think I said don’t watch or watch then you can try that, but I’m very aware of what I actually said. What I can’t control for is how you or somebody else choose to infer the words that are typed.

[jamze132]

Dude most of your post exchanges devolve into this netherworld where you don't know what you've typed or even the point you're trying to make, exhausting.

This happens to everyone who argues with the zone’s resident crybaby. It’s not just DB.

[Oaf]

Would the players consider striking about this? Some are so wealthy, they could bankroll the vet min/UDFA players who actually need the money for a year even two.

To even suggest that 100M nfl fans could organize themselves and force action is laughable.

[notacon]

This happens to everyone who argues with the zone’s resident crybaby. It’s not just DB.
Good to see that you are self aware.

You came to this thread, not to offer up anything of value to say or add to the discussions, but rather to cry and whine over your obsession with the me. It's sad...for you.

I'm living rent free in your head...it's a lonely place to be.

[notacon]

Would the players consider striking about this? Some are so wealthy, they could bankroll the vet min/UDFA players who actually need the money for a year even two.

To even suggest that 100M nfl fans could organize themselves and force action is laughable.

A reasonable question.

The possibility of a strike over field surface? Very unlikely. Here is a list of "NFL Labor history since 1968" (https://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?page=nfl_labor_history)(up to 2011).

The impetuous for all labor strife between NFL players and owners has been over free agency (or better understood as how much control does a NFL team have over a NFL player's career and movement between teams) and money.

The players have a pretty good record of getting much of what they want in these two critical areas, with (more or less) reasonable concessions with the owners.

Free agency is now a given, within the negotiated parameters. Long gone are the days that an owner basically "owning" each player.

Money sharing with players is now codified into each CBA, where the average salary of players has skyrocketed (justifiably) with the concession to the owners of the Cap system. A set percentage of the total revenue of all the teams is now a given. The negotiating today is nibbling at the edges of what "income" is included and tweaking of the percentage.

I remember when OJ Simpson held out (he had NO recourse except to withhold his services) and Ralph Wilson dug in. OJ sat out before the 1976 season. He forced Wilson to offer up a contract that made him the highest paid NFL player.

Reportedly it was a series of three one-year contracts (https://www.nytimes.com/1976/09/13/archives/simpson-back-with-the-bills-has-new-pact.html) worth a total of $2.5M. That is $13.6M in 2023 dollars. Or, $4.5M a year. In 1979, when OJ retired, he was the NFL's highest paid player at $806,668.
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1980/02/01/simpson-was-paid-806668-in-1979/c29c4667-f244-4b91-8391-ff2b7e30fea4/)
That's $3.4M in 2023 dollars.

Today, the highest paid player is Joe Burrow...$55M a year....SIXTEEN TIMES MORE! $3.4M today would place him at #17 for RB's (Najee Harris on a rookie controlled contract) while RB's value has plummeted.

WR's today (the equivalent of yesteryear's RB's) $3.4M would be the 60th ranked pay.

Money will continue to be the main negotiation point for the NFLPA, as gambling money and other streams of revenue will be a point of contention to be included in the set percentage of revenue the players get.

Field surface is very likely to be an issue for the 2030 CBA negotiations, if not before. I have already suggested (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5088424&viewfull=1#post5088424) a possible negotiations for the 2030 CBA where field surface could be an issue. Grass fields in exchange for an 18th game....take away one preseason game and add a second bye for each team. That would make international games easier to schedule as well.

There is little reason to think that ANY issue will be critical enough for the players to even consider striking. They already have (more or less) won most of what they want as the pay is enormous even for fringe players (as it should be) and even the amount of practice time or how training camp is conducted is negotiated and enshrined in the CBA.

Striking is the last resort when the issue is so critical (money and freedom to move from team to team) and the parties are so far apart that the acrimony is so bitter that the two sides cannot get even close to an agreement. The gravy trains is SO good for both sides, it makes little sense to let it get even close to that dire.

Another very possible way forward is pretty simple. Every new stadium must have grass field. And every outdoor turf field be transitioned to grass (including hybrid grass like GB) ASAP.

[Woodman]

Football should be played on grass that becomes mud when it rains.

[Bill Cody]

Never about a single fan and I didn’t advise anybody to watch or not watch.

What I said is that if Nottie going to demean and dismiss another poster then he should at least have the decency to actually care about what he says and not just let the words ring hollow by his own actions.

We can say we care about player safety, but we all watched Hamlin nearly die on the field and then turned right around and kept watching. It’s just bull**** and blame shifting, our collective inability to be honest about that is one of the worst parts of fan culture.

I'll take one more stab at understanding your point: if you care about issues such as safety as a fan you're not really serious unless you stop watching or buying gear. You've said this twice now. Here is your earlier quote "For as passionate an argument as you want to make you’re not stopping your viewing, buying of merch, or attending games over this issue. Which is why nothing changes, same with the refs, and the other litany of items that fans love to complain about, but aren’t willing to do anything about."

Is that your point or no? If it isn't don't bother trying to explain what it is because it means what you type is literally indecipherable. If that is your point I would say what Noty or anyone else does as a fan won't change anything. As passionate as Noty may be he's not Dr. King starting a movement over grass fields. "I have a dream...."

[notacon]

I'll take one more stab at understanding your point: if you care about issues such as safety as a fan you're not really serious unless you stop watching or buying gear. You've said this twice now. Here is your earlier quote "For as passionate an argument as you want to make you’re not stopping your viewing, buying of merch, or attending games over this issue. Which is why nothing changes, same with the refs, and the other litany of items that fans love to complain about, but aren’t willing to do anything about."

Is that your point or no? If it isn't don't bother trying to explain what it is because it means what you type is literally indecipherable. If that is your point I would say what Noty or anyone else does as a fan won't change anything. As passionate as Noty may be he's not Dr. King starting a movement over grass fields. "I have a dream...."
Spot on Bill.

What has DB's panties in a illogical twist is when I wrote this (several times) "WHY are you (the silly rebuttals to the idea of requiring NFL games be played on grass....that is supported by 92% of NFL players) taking the side of GREEDY NFL owners and, basically, ****TING AL OVER the players, their well being, health and preferences for their work environment?!?!?!"

My premise is 100% accurate because the push-back against grass fields IS, in fact, "taking the side of greedy owners" and, at the same time it IS, in fact, ****TING AL OVER the players, their well being, health and preferences for their work environment. It is undeniable.

The premise that DB is putting forward and you have detailed and surmised perfectly with...."if you care about issues such as safety as a fan you're not really serious unless you stop watching or buying gear."

THAT premise is silly to the nth degree and just plain dumb.

[DraftBoy]

I'll take one more stab at understanding your point: if you care about issues such as safety as a fan you're not really serious unless you stop watching or buying gear. You've said this twice now. Here is your earlier quote "For as passionate an argument as you want to make you’re not stopping your viewing, buying of merch, or attending games over this issue. Which is why nothing changes, same with the refs, and the other litany of items that fans love to complain about, but aren’t willing to do anything about."

Is that your point or no? If it isn't don't bother trying to explain what it is because it means what you type is literally indecipherable. If that is your point I would say what Noty or anyone else does as a fan won't change anything. As passionate as Noty may be he's not Dr. King starting a movement over grass fields. "I have a dream...."

You’re limiting the options of things that can be done to just two actions for whatever reason. That’s not the only actions that can be taken to demonstrate care for the issue beyond just complaining about it.

As you may recall earlier in the thread I also said there are lots of of things that can be done.

[Bill Cody]

You’re limiting the options of things that can be done to just two actions for whatever reason. That’s not the only actions that can be taken to demonstrate care for the issue beyond just complaining about it.

As you may recall earlier in the thread I also said there are lots of of things that can be done.

Nothing you've said would make any difference. If it would please explain how.

[Woodman]

The fact that multiple NFL stadiums will convert to pristine, high-end grass surfaces in order to host FIFA World Cup games makes the argument tougher for the league. But it all comes down to bargaining power. If NFL venues want to host those matches, NFL venues must have acceptable grass surfaces.
For NFL games, there’s no equivalent business impetus for the owners to do what the players want. It’s something that could, in theory, be handled at the bargaining table. If it’s an issue on which management simply won’t yield, then the players would have to be willing to strike over it.
They likely won’t.
That’s the biggest problem for the NFLPA. The owners can and will shut the sport down for a year to get what they want. The players won’t.
Until they will, they likely won’t be getting grass in all stadiums — unless they make some other major concession that the owners deem to be a fair tradeoff.


NFLPA president Jalen Reeves-Maybin believes shift to grass fields "can happen" - NBC Sports (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/nflpa-president-jalen-reeves-maybin-believes-shift-to-grass-fields-can-happen)

[notacon]

Thanks for this Woody. These paragraphs from the article stood out for me...


Players want grass. New NFL Players Association president and Lions linebacker Jalen Reeves-Maybin thinks it’s possible to get grass in every NFL stadium.

“We see right now they’re changing all the fields for soccer to come over (for the World Cup) and soccer players don’t play on turf,” Reeves-Maybin tells Dave Birkett of the Detroit Free-Press. “I think it’s definitely a thing that can happen (https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2024/03/16/nfl-18-game-schedule-turf-fields-nflpa-president-jalen-reeves-maybin/72984461007/), and it’s proven to be a safer and healthier option. I think as time’s gone on, we’ve put player safety, health and safety to the forefront, and I think the surface that we play on plays a huge part in that.”

It can happen, in theory. But it won’t be easy.

It will be expensive, especially in closed-roof stadiums that don’t have a field that can be slid outside and properly grown and maintained, with real sunlight.

The fact that multiple NFL stadiums will convert to pristine, high-end grass surfaces in order to host FIFA World Cup games makes the argument tougher for the league. But it all comes down to bargaining power. If NFL venues want to host those matches, NFL venues must have acceptable grass surfaces.

The article that is linked to in that quote puts the issue exactly where I suspected it might end up....


New NFLPA president Jalen Reeves-Maybin talks 18-game schedule, banning turf fields (https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2024/03/16/nfl-18-game-schedule-turf-fields-nflpa-president-jalen-reeves-maybin/72984461007/)


Hmmmmmmm....."it all comes down to "bargaining power". The players want grass fields....the owners want an 18 game schedule.


It's not surprising that these two issues are highlighted as they sure seem like the "bargaining power" for each side to get what they want.


The CBA expires in 2030. Stand by.

[Bill Cody]

Sukie please explain what the difference between soccer grass and football grass is or why you think only less sturdy grass could be grown in a dome. That's the part of the back and forth in this thread I had trouble following. But then again my college didn't offer a major in Turfgrass so I don't claim to know that much about grass.

My speculation would be that almost all plants need a combination of the right light and the right water so you should be able to grow virtually any variety of grass you want with the right light but you seem to think otherwise. The fact that it hasn't been done for football yet isn't by itself a persuasive argument. They haven't put computer chips in footballs to see if the ball crossed the goal line either but that doesn't mean they can't. My guess is this is about money pure and simple.

[sukie]

Don’t have to explain it. Soccer grass in a dome is temporary for World Cup to be able to host. Soccer stadiums are all open air with grass. I didn’t make up the claim about soccer vs football . It was in articles about that very thing. Football is more taxing than soccer.

temporary turf maintained by grow lights 100% indoors is just that. Temporary.

Chicago is planning a downtown dome… non retractable.
grow lights and indoor irrigation in a dome has to be less expensive than a rail and tray system requiring the same irrigation after the field is moved outside. Why? Perhaps sunshine is more efficient than a grow light system slowly moved over a field and back again over and over.

Chicago has no choice but to put in real grass if all things are equal.

[notacon]

Sukie please explain what the difference between soccer grass and football grass is or why you think only less sturdy grass could be grown in a dome. That's the part of the back and forth in this thread I had trouble following. But then again my college didn't offer a major in Turfgrass so I don't claim to know that much about grass.

My speculation would be that almost all plants need a combination of the right light and the right water so you should be able to grow virtually any variety of grass you want with the right light but you seem to think otherwise. The fact that it hasn't been done for football yet isn't by itself a persuasive argument. They haven't put computer chips in footballs to see if the ball crossed the goal line either but that doesn't mean they can't. My guess is this is about money pure and simple.

SPOT ON!!!! No need to "guess". It's a FACT!!!

The issue of whether football is "more taxing" on a field than soccer is totally irrelevant.

Half of the NFL stadiums have grass. (soon to be more than half when Buffalo opens their new stadium) They are doing just fine with that surface.

There is NO DIFFERENCE of the quality or ability to maintain grass in a dome as compared to open air. It's ALL about cost.

I did find this article that put a price tag on it concerning Minnesota's dome....

Would a natural grass field be possible at US Bank Stadium? (https://www.fox9.com/news/would-natural-grass-field-be-possible-at-u-s-bank-stadium)


But for an enclosed facility like the Vikings home stadium, would a natural grass field even be possible?

"Complete enclosed canopy stadiums like U.S. Bank Stadium are almost never fielded with a natural turfgrass," said University of Minnesota Turfgrass Extension Educator Dr. Jon Trappe.

Even though part of the roof is made of EFTE, a plastic-like material that is lighter and cheaper than grass, experts say there wouldn't be enough hours of sunlight a day during our Minnesota winters for natural grass inside the stadium to grow or repair itself without grow lights.

"Sun angle is lower, so light quality and quantity are poor, so day length is short, and the light angle is weaker. So the grasses themselves are getting less sunlight, which is what they need for photosynthesis," said Dr. Trappe.

A turfgrass management professor at Michigan State, who is working with FIFA to bring natural grass to five domed stadiums when the World Cup comes to the U.S. in 2026, says a natural grass field in an enclosed stadium would most likely have to be swapped out every few weeks, which some outdoor NFL stadiums already do.

But with grow lights and other infrastructure, it could cost U.S. Bank Stadium $4 to $5 million a year to maintain.

"We're not talking about anything new. We're just talking about it would be new to a domed stadium," said Trey Rogers.

But experts say a football field takes more punishment than a soccer field and would have to be changed out with fresh sod more often for the NFL than the World Cup.




In other words, grass inside a dome is ABSOLUTELY possible with "grow lights", and the issue of football being tougher on a grass field than soccer is ALSO APPLICABLE TO ANY GRASS FIELD in an open air stadium!!!!

So, any argument against grass in a dome (besides money) is ALSO arguing against GRASS FIELDS ALTOGETHER!!!

It's ALL ABOUT MONEY!!!!!

As I already posted in detail (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5082792&viewfull=1#post5082792), the increased cost is relative PEANUTS to every NFL team. The "$4 to $5 million a year to maintain" a grass field inside a dome is the equivalent as a family with $100,000 income spending $688 to $860 a year.

[sukie]

Not arguing against grass fields altogether. Just norther domed stadiums.

that article as you can easily see is speculative. Grow lights are a big operation. The lights need to be as close to the surface as possible. To maintain a turf field 100% is theoretically possible but swapping out turf indoors and out is not an equal proposition. Outdoor fields don’t need massive lighting systems rolled over them constantly to provide light and outdoor fields (believe it or not) sometimes need no irrigation.

when someone accomplishes this feat then that would be something. Now? Chicago building a non retractable dome will not have real grass.

[Bill Cody]

Not arguing against grass fields altogether. Just norther domed stadiums.

that article as you can easily see is speculative. Grow lights are a big operation. The lights need to be as close to the surface as possible. To maintain a turf field 100% is theoretically possible but swapping out turf indoors and out is not an equal proposition. Outdoor fields don’t need massive lighting systems rolled over them constantly to provide light and outdoor fields (believe it or not) sometimes need no irrigation.

when someone accomplishes this feat then that would be something. Now? Chicago building a non retractable dome will not have real grass.

Sounds like you just have to go to some trouble and expense to swap out the turf, something as stated is already being done. Not buying this is that complicated. Expensive? Probably not that either when the increased cost of injuries is factored in.

I think if the teams were FORCED to do it they'd get this sorted pretty quickly. This isn't John Kennedy saying we're going to land a man on the moon and bring him back safely in < 10 years.

[sukie]

If it was not that complicated Arizona would be doing it. Outdoors in a dry desert on an expensive tray rail system vs grow lights constantly running over the field in a climate controlled setting. Same with Vegas.

they chose to put fields on trays and rails to move the entire surface outdoors.

there is much more not happening in the grow light indoor turf industry.

if there is such an industry outside of open air soccer fields.

[notacon]

Not arguing against grass fields altogether. Just norther domed stadiums.

that article as you can easily see is speculative. Grow lights are a big operation. The lights need to be as close to the surface as possible. To maintain a turf field 100% is theoretically possible but swapping out turf indoors and out is not an equal proposition. Outdoor fields don’t need massive lighting systems rolled over them constantly to provide light and outdoor fields (believe it or not) sometimes need no irrigation.

when someone accomplishes this feat then that would be something. Now? Chicago building a non retractable dome will not have real grass.


Yes, many of your arguments are applicable to all grass fields especially when you dismiss the fact that major soccer leagues around the world mandate it's use and the fact that several domed stadiums in the US are installing grass to hold the 2016 FIFA World Cup

The use of grow lights is NOT speculative. It's been done for years (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5083494&viewfull=1#post5083494).

The more you put out these lame arguments the more you illustrate constipated mindset that narrow minded fools have shown for (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5085050&viewfull=1#post5085050)decades (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5085050&viewfull=1#post5085050)(and in reality, centuries).

[notacon]

Sounds like you just have to go to some trouble and expense to swap out the turf, something as stated is already being done. Not buying this is that complicated. Expensive? Probably not that either when the increased cost of injuries is factored in.

I think if the teams were FORCED to do it they'd get this sorted pretty quickly. This isn't John Kennedy saying we're going to land a man on the moon and bring him back safely in < 10 years.


It's ALL about the money. Period.

[sukie]

Seems Vegas is saying it’s about being green vs energy intensive grow lights.

besides you seem to think swapping out turf every couple of weeks is a wash as far as money goes.

[notacon]

Seems Vegas is saying it’s about being green vs energy intensive grow lights.

besides you seem to think swapping out turf every couple of weeks is a wash as far as money goes.

That is SO DUMB.....incredibly imbecilic.

Phoenix and Las Vegas (the two stadiums that use a tray system) are ranked #1 and #3 in MOST SUNNIEST CITES IN THE U.S (https://www.moving.com/tips/sunniest-cities-us/). It's not about "being green" it's about all that "free" sunshine!!! Using grow lights in these two cites would be stupid beyond measure.

Many NFL stadiums ALREADY "swap out turf every few weeks" and doing so in a dome would be no different.


Like I said, it's ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!

Your arguments are silly and not very convincing.....unless one is a cheapskate owner or a Luddite.

[sukie]

So money to swap out is the same outdoors or indoors … why have expensive tray rail systems when grow lights are just as effective?

Vegas chose to not use lighting. There has to be a reason other than green energy requirements.

if you are seapping out turf on a tray or in open air stadiums that is a wash. Why the trays ? Can’t say money is the root of this. Notarized grow lighting systems have to be less expensive to use verses moving the entire mass of the field outdoors.

[sukie]

So… the fact that the newest dome chose not to
use grow lights is my evidence that grow lights aren’t the same as sunlight in maintaining football turf .

your evidence that dome stadiums can maintain turf using grow lights is what exactly? The owners are greedy?

[notacon]

Jesus sukie, you are going round and round with the same failed arguments. I've already refuted all your lame arguments many times over. You simply refuse to accept the facts and reality.


You lost this one. Take the loss and move along.

[sukie]

You have not. Why did Vegas opt for the expense of a tray rail field system when a grow light system would be just as good?

is Chicago even thinking about real turf in its plans for downtown stadium?

why has it not been attempted inside a dome anywhere other than temporarily for word cup events?

(your own words would be fine.)

[notacon]

You have not. Why did Vegas opt for the expense of a tray rail field system when a grow light system would be just as good?

is Chicago even thinking about real turf in its plans for downtown stadium?

why has it not been attempted inside a dome anywhere other than temporarily for word cup events?

(your own words would be fine.)

Yes, I have. Just stop it.

[sukie]

All you said was owners are greedy.

I’m all for natural grass and glad Bills will be playing on it but there will be no league mandate unless it includes exemptions for domed stadiums.

[notacon]

Great article from Rich Florio stating the GLARINGLY OBVIOUS....

NFL is committed to safety — when it doesn’t cost money to be (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/nfl-is-committed-to-safety-when-it-doesnt-cost-money-to-be)



As momentum was building over the weekend for a ban on the hip-drop tackle, a current head coach made an important observation.

Basically, as the league wraps itself in the “player safety” flag, it continues to ignore the basic fact that playing on grass is better for the human body than playing on an artificial surface.

It’s undeniable. The forces, on a grass field, go into the ground. On a turf field, they bounce back into the body. Anyone who has ever played on an artificial surface knows that. The NFL nevertheless tries to concoct a phony debate, and to bolster the pro-turf position with warped and misleading stats.

Frankly, the NFL supports safety only when it doesn’t cost any money to do so. And, alternatively, when it doesn’t get in the way of the ongoing obsession to maximize revenue.

Grass fields in all stadiums would create an expense that the league doesn’t want to incur, especially at a time when it’s pinching pennies with NFL Network programming and luring long-time employees to take buyouts and leave.

The NFL also will not hesitate to make the inevitable push for an 18-game regular season. That’s coming. It’s just a question of when. And when it does, it will result in more revenue. Regardless of whether it’s good for the players to play 18 regular-season games.

That’s a safety issue that doesn’t matter, because making it matter would mean making less money. Thus, look for any and all ongoing safety advancements to be made only as to items that aren’t hazardous to the health of Big Shield’s bottom line.

[sukie]

It is glaringly obvious that playing on grass is superior. No one is arguing that point. Especially when avid horticulture expert and Uber successful hydroponics enthusiast Mr Florio weighs in with bold fonts and stuff.

[notacon]

It is glaringly obvious that playing on grass is superior. No one is arguing that point. Especially when avid horticulture expert and Uber successful hydroponics enthusiast Mr Florio weighs in with bold fonts and stuff.

As usual, you miss the point entirely.

Yes it IS "glaringly obvious that playing on grass is superior", but the POINT is that glaringly obvious that THE reason that owners and NFL is pushing back against doing what IS glaringly obvious to better ensure player health and safety is ABOUT MONEY.

The other point is that the NFL and NFL owners supposedly being "committed to safety" ONLY when it does not cost money.

What else is glaringly obvious is that you inexplicably are taking the side and defending filthy rich owners and parroting their specious dishonest baloney so they can retain even more of their obscene wealth.

[sukie]

I am not missing the point. The one you side stepped by not mentioning Domes. Any proclamation to play on grass would hold an asterisk for Minnesota, Detroit, NO, Atlanta And Indy plus whatever fully domed stadium I am missing.

[Historian]

Yes it IS "glaringly obvious that playing on grass is superior", but the POINT is that glaringly obvious that THE reason that owners and NFL is pushing back against doing what IS glaringly obvious to better ensure player health and safety is ABOUT MONEY.

The other point is that the NFL and NFL owners supposedly being "committed to safety" ONLY when it does not cost money.

What else is glaringly obvious is that you inexplicably are taking the side and defending filthy rich owners and parroting their specious dishonest baloney so they can retain even more of their obscene wealth.
Key word: Obscene.

This is what I don't get, and I agree with you 100% on this.

How would this even affect their pocketbooks?

The teams split the tv money equitably, and that money pays all salaries and operational costs. (At least I thought it did)

Most stadiums are built and maintained with taxpayer funds in the first place. (aka corporate welfare)

This league makes BILLIONS. How does any of this hurt their revenues?

Seems to me that it would be a drop in the bucket to do the right thing.

[Historian]

Grass fields in all stadiums would create an expense that the league doesn’t want to incur, especially at a time when it’s pinching pennies with NFL Network programming and luring long-time employees to take buyouts and leave.

I know this is off the topic, but I would like to hear more about this too.

Pinching pennies?

Are you ****ing kidding me?

Employee buyouts?

How many people work for the NFLN? A few dozen? Mostly reporter types. Many ex-jocks.

Given the ****ty officiating....the obscene PSLs....the ridiculously priced merchandise....the watered down schedule....etc....etc....

At some point, people are just going to throw their hands up and say, screw this, and the league is going to collapse on itself.

[notacon]

Key word: Obscene.

This is what I don't get, and I agree with you 100% on this.

How would this even affect their pocketbooks?

The teams split the tv money equitably, and that money pays all salaries and operational costs. (At least I thought it did)

Most stadiums are built and maintained with taxpayer funds in the first place. (aka corporate welfare)

This league makes BILLIONS. How does any of this hurt their revenues?

Seems to me that it would be a drop in the bucket to do the right thing.

"Obscene" is spot on!!!!

This is what makes it SO frustrating.

As I already accurately observed (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5093134&viewfull=1#post5093134)........"As I already posted in detail (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5082792&viewfull=1#post5082792), the increased cost is relative PEANUTS to every NFL team. The "$4 to $5 million a year to maintain" a grass field inside a dome is the equivalent as a family with $100,000 income spending $688 to $860 a year."

Astounding pure greediness. There is NOTHING to prevent the NFL from mandating grass field for every NFL game, EXCEPT MONEY!!!!! The undeniable proof is the FACT that several NFL DOMES will install grass in order to host the 2026 FIFA World Cup soccer tournament.

EIGHT NFL stadiums are replacing their artificial crap to grass in order to host the FIFA, FIVE are DOMES!!!!

[Bill Cody]

"Obscene" is spot on!!!!

This is what makes it SO frustrating.

As I already accurately observed (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5093134&viewfull=1#post5093134)........"As I already posted in detail (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5082792&viewfull=1#post5082792), the increased cost is relative PEANUTS to every NFL team. The "$4 to $5 million a year to maintain" a grass field inside a dome is the equivalent as a family with $100,000 income spending $688 to $860 a year."

Astounding pure greediness. There is NOTHING to prevent the NFL from mandating grass field for every NFL game, EXCEPT MONEY!!!!! The undeniable proof is the FACT that several NFL DOMES will install grass in order to host the 2026 FIFA World Cup soccer tournament.

EIGHT NFL stadiums are replacing their artificial crap to grass in order to host the FIFA, FIVE are DOMES!!!!


I would think the world cup is actually a sterner test of grass in a dome than an NFL schedule would be which is every other week on average. When you consider a lot of teams swap out the grass every month or so already. So the grass can't stand up for 2 NFL games indoors? Calling BS on that.

[sukie]

Prancing around on a pitch with the occasional slide ? Ve 300 plus pound men crushing each other at the line of scrimmage up and down the field ? Football is rougher on turf.

[notacon]

I would think the world cup is actually a sterner test of grass in a dome than an NFL schedule would be which is every other week on average. When you consider a lot of teams swap out the grass every month or so already. So the grass can't stand up for 2 NFL games indoors? Calling BS on that.

It's really TOTALLY irreverent if soccer or football is harder on a grass field.

As of today, half of NFL teams play on grass...soon to be a majority when the Bills open their new stadium and even more if Met Life decides to make the change to grass permanent after the FIFA like they should.

There is almost universal agreement by the people that actually play on the surface, you know, NFL players, that grass is exponentially preferred over artificial crap.

Two of those stadiums (Green Bay & Philly) use a hybrid system which is grass fortified with turf. Perfect for harsher climates.

Yes, grass fields are regularly replaced with fresh grass turf, grown on farms (usually) from California. There is hardly any difference between maintaining a grass field in an open air stadium than one in a dome....except money.

The relative quality of any field is more dependent on how it is maintained.

There are NO credible arguments against mandating all NFL games be played on grass. NONE. ZERO, NADA. ZILCH.

[sukie]

Yes, grass fields are regularly replaced with fresh grass turf, grown on farms (usually) from California. There is hardly any difference between maintaining a grass field in an open air stadium than one in a dome....except money.

What dome has grass maintained completely indoors. List them.

[notacon]

What dome has grass maintained completely indoors. List them.

sukie going 'round and 'round and 'round...and STILL not getting it...


https://media1.tenor.com/m/0fMG9sbo9lQAAAAC/wadedotphoto-wade.gif

[sukie]

Can’t give examples. It’s okay. Maybe the tech will catch up to your whims.

[notacon]

BTW sukie, I have already knocked down all of your lame arguments....the latest too...the strawman baloney "What dome has grass maintained completely indoors. List them."

If you read my all of each one of of my posts on this thread (all the way though not just Cliff notes skimming) it's all there already.

Hint...it's unnecessary to use the word "grass" in your silly query.

Another hint....just because something is not being done, does not prove, in the least, that it can't be done.

That's like asking "What humans have walked on the surface of Mars. List them."

...or....in the 50's asking....

"What humans have walked on the surface of the Moon. List them."

....or....in the 70's asking....

"What households have a computer in their home. List them."

...or......in also in the 70's asking....

"What regular folks are using a network of computers using phone lines to communicate with each other (hint: the internet). List them."

...or.....in the 80's asking....

"What regular folks are using computers and the internet (what existed then) to communicate with each other (via the internet) that enabled them to upload a profile and make friends with other users (hint: Social Media) List them."

BTW...the additional (like I said, I have already addressed this lame argument) answer to "What dome has grass maintained completely indoors. List them."...in 2026 will be:

Atlanta Mercedes-Benz Stadium
Dallas AT&T Stadium
Houston NRG Stadium
Los Angeles SoFi Stadium

Don't try to use the canard that it will be for a short period of time. These domes will maintain their grass field for about 2 months. If it can be done for 2 months it can be done for 4/5 months.

I suggest you stop going 'round and 'round making yourself dizzy with flawed logic and stop acting like a narrow minded, shortsighted Luddite.

[notacon]

Can’t give examples. It’s okay. Maybe the tech will catch up to your whims.

I was typing when you posted this additional canard.

I just did give examples (besides the obvious ones in 2026)....accept the challenge of....I even gave you some hints....

If you read my all of each one of of my posts on this thread (all the way though not just Cliff notes skimming) it's all there already.

Hint...it's unnecessary to use the word "grass" in your silly query. (In FACT the "tech" is already being used and has been in use for many years.)

.....and also explained why "giving examples" is irrelevant......Another hint....just because something is not being done, does not prove, in the least, that it can't be done.

[sukie]

Just a city where located and use of the enclosed dome not buried in a wall of filler.

[notacon]

Just a city where located and use of the enclosed dome not buried in a wall of filler.
Huh???

Jesus sukie, you lost this argument on the first page. Not one of your objections is relevant or credible. It's ALL about money.

Give it up.

[sukie]

The objection that Detroit and Minnesota cannot have real turf? The objection where you said they could use grow lights ?

that objection?

just because something hasn’t been done doesn’t make it possible either.

comparing indoor nfl natural playing surfaces to personal computer proliferation is almost juvenile. I was surprised you omitted the electric vehicles that were all the rage back in 1909 that were wiped out by the advancement of the more advantageous ICE vehicles.

[DetoxTent]

Huh???
Jesus sukie, you lost this argument on the first page. Not one of your objections is relevant or credible. It's ALL about money.


Uh... no he didn't, you did. You continue to be a legend in your own mind. Only in your mind. Other posters just make fun of you.

The poster sukie tries to engage you in discussion (for some unknown reason) and you try to belittle and criticize him. I really don't know why the moderators of this site don't just send you packing. You don't add anything to any of these discussions. Outside of childish behavior, that is.

[notacon]

Uh... no he didn't, you did. You continue to be a legend in your own mind. Only in your mind. Other posters just make fun of you.

The poster sukie tries to engage you in discussion (for some unknown reason) and you try to belittle and criticize him. I really don't know why the moderators of this site don't just send you packing. You don't add anything to any of these discussions. Outside of childish behavior, that is.


:rofl: Sure looks like you did not read the facts either.

[notacon]

The objection that Detroit and Minnesota cannot have real turf? The objection where you said they could use grow lights ?

that objection?

just because something hasn’t been done doesn’t make it possible either.

comparing indoor nfl natural playing surfaces to personal computer proliferation is almost juvenile. I was surprised you omitted the electric vehicles that were all the rage back in 1909 that were wiped out by the advancement of the more advantageous ICE vehicles.

Except the idea that "Detroit and Minnesota cannot have real turf" is FALSE and belied by the facts that you refuse to hear or accept.

No matter, the facts and evidence do not need your approval to be accurate, credible facts, which, undeniably they are.

Jesus. Growing and maintaining plant based living things inside a dome HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE AND IS STILL BEING DONE VERY SUCCESSFULLY FOR YEARS!!!

Your denial of these facts IS juvenile and absurd.

[sukie]

Where has indoor playing turf been grown successfully for years?

seriously it’s obviously simple to list 1 fully indoor sports arena that uses this widely known technology. It doesn’t even have to be environmentally friendly. Just one and the sport it is maintained to handle.

[notacon]

Where has indoor playing turf been grown successfully for years?

seriously it’s obviously simple to list 1 fully indoor sports arena that uses this widely known technology. It doesn’t even have to be environmentally friendly. Just one and the sport it is maintained to handle.

I have already addressed (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265078-92-of-NFL-players-want-grass-fields?p=5095579&viewfull=1#post5095579)that canard and even gave you a hint...

If you read my all of each one of of my posts on this thread (all the way though not just Cliff notes skimming) it's all there already.

Hint...it's unnecessary to use the word "grass" (or "turf") in your silly query.

[sukie]

So let me know when a viable technology emerges and is adopted anywhere in the world to maintain natural contact sports turf 100% indoors.

until then your over use of the word canard is in of itself Canardic.

[notacon]

So let me know when a viable technology emerges and is adopted anywhere in the world to maintain natural contact sports turf 100% indoors.

until then your over use of the word canard is in of itself Canardic.

:rofl: So let me know when you accept undeniable facts, evidence and reality that your doubtful "viable technology" is ALREADY being adopted to maintain LIVING PLANTS!!! And has been for YEARS!!!


It is a TOTALLY IRRELEVANT CANARD to limit your assertions to the constipated "natural contact sports turf 100% indoors".

I've already addressed why that has not happened for a NFL team...YET. In any event, even that constipated criteria IS going to be adopted in 2026 for FIFA World Cup. Don't try to say that soccer is not a "contact sport". It's a (lame) distinction without a difference.

Anyway, I'm letting you know now.

[sukie]

The places you listed are putting in temporary grass for World Cup. The Dallas stadium is retractable roof.

the turf at Vegas for superbowl was horrid because it wasn’t railed outside. It was over watered and shoved indoors where it actually began to rot. Wouldn’t have happened if moved outdoors to dry.

shoving grass in for FIFA isn’t playing football.

the tech isn’t there for grass in Minnesota or Detroit. Those stadiums will get a waiver along with Chicago’s planned new dome

Did I mention the tech isn’t there?

[notacon]

The places you listed are putting in temporary grass for World Cup. The Dallas stadium is retractable roof.

the turf at Vegas for superbowl was horrid because it wasn’t railed outside. It was over watered and shoved indoors where it actually began to rot. Wouldn’t have happened if moved outdoors to dry.

shoving grass in for FIFA isn’t playing football.

the tech isn’t there for grass in Minnesota or Detroit. Those stadiums will get a waiver along with Chicago’s planned new dome

Did I mention the tech isn’t there?

This is SO tedious.

You keep on bringing back ZOMBIE talking points after I killed them several times.

[sukie]

Only way my “no natural turf in Ford Field” changes is when someone does it in similar environments. Tech doesn’t exist. When it does then fine but it doesn’t.

it’s not greedy owners hiding this fancy tech either. Let’s see how the pitches look while 180 lb guys prance around on it during World Cup. Especially a couple games in.

hope it’s better than the crappy Super Bowl turf.

[notacon]

Only way my “no natural turf in Ford Field” changes is when someone does it in similar environments. Tech doesn’t exist. When it does then fine but it doesn’t.

it’s not greedy owners hiding this fancy tech either. Let’s see how the pitches look while 180 lb guys prance around on it during World Cup. Especially a couple games in.

hope it’s better than the crappy Super Bowl turf.


The silly (that have been debunked over and over and over and over and over and over again) Zombie arguments just won't stop coming....

https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/6000eda3f1e35b53ec4a684e/Group-of-zombies-with-glowing-eyes-walking-and-reaching-out/960x0.jpg?format=jpg&width=1440

[sukie]

You have debunked nothing. You been spending time (too much) under grow lights?

whenever you are short answered with silly pics is your unconscious sign of surrender.

wake this thread up during World Cup… or if Minnesota goes “grass”

[notacon]

You have debunked nothing. You been spending time (too much) under grow lights?

whenever you are short answered with silly pics is your unconscious sign of surrender.

wake this thread up during World Cup… or if Minnesota goes “grass”


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Your arguments are as dead as Michael Jackson.