DIFFERENCE IN THE BILL'S AND CHEIFS .....very simple..

[cas22]

talent evaluation is the #1 difference, hear me out!

KC has 3 guys left on this years team vs there 1st SuperBowl victory with Mahomes, they are Mahomes ,Kelce and Chris Jones on defense, year in and year out they move on from players demanding big salary's or expiring contracts.

who doe's that sound like? New England when they had Brady.. we need to start drafting and quit worrying about guys that had decent play in years past, we have Allen Cook , Kincaid and Oliver on defense, do the same..

we are just the opposite as KC, we try and re-sign everyone... KC has went through 2 left tackles, we have Dawkins, we have resigned way to many guys like Hyde and Poyer and White and Milano and Diggs and Knox just for starter.

in order to win and keep the cap in check you have to get play out of young guys while they are under there 1st contract then move on, but you have to know talent and that just might be where The Bills are different from the KC's and NE's of the Brady years.

[Typ0]

Yeah it's the coaching.

[Forward_Lateral]

Andy Reid is an offensive genius.

Nobody on the Bills can sniff his undies.

Combine that with the best QB to ever breath (yes, I said it), and the best TE to ever breath (yes, I said it again), and it's an unstoppable force.

Not to mention their Defense was lights out this year.

[Typ0]

Combine that with the best QB to ever breath (yes, I said it), and the best TE to ever breath (yes, I said it again), and it's an unstoppable force.



I don't buy that. These two guys are really excellent players OK ... but the recency bias is profound. Allen has more talent and capability than Mahomes he just doesn't apply his brain the same way so he ends up being inferior to a lot of folks.

[Mad Max]

I don't buy that. These two guys are really excellent players OK ... but the recency bias is profound. Allen has more talent and capability than Mahomes he just doesn't apply his brain the same way so he ends up being inferior to a lot of folks.

Correct. No dynasty lives forever no matter how invincible they seem. They ALL ultimately fade away. At one point in time the 49ers were a dynasty whom the Chicago Bears just couldn’t eclipse…until they did, all while carrying around a refrigerator.

Everyone then thought that that Bears team wouldn’t/couldn’t be defeated for years. They never won another Super Bowl

Then there were the Dallas Cowboys who crushed everything in front of them including our beloved Bills and whom Steve Young’s 49ers just couldn’t get past…until they did.

We have the right David to slay this most recent Goliath.

[Woodman]

Not to mention their Defense was lights out this year.

This was the difference .... you shoulda mentioned it 1st. :idunno:

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Where are the Bills Mahomes, Kelce and Jones? We have Allen. Cook and Kincaid are still early in their career; I don't know I'll put them in the Kelce, Jones, or Hill (departed) category in term of HoF level players.

That is the theme I've been on. The Bills have not hit any of them other than Allen. Not an indictment on Beane - he at least got one and may have a few that turn out to be. But prior to Beane, the previous regime really didn't leave us with anything. Kyle Williams was good, that's about it. The one who could've been here is Jason Peters and we didn't want to pay him. Did I left over anyone who could've carried over to Beane -McDermott era?

Oliver is a good player but we didn't get the a Jones caliber one from the same draft class: we have no shot at Quinnen Williams, Christian Wilkens is about the same as Oliver, might be a tad better. Dexter Lawrence is better, Jeffrey Simmons is the one we really missed out - he's best of the that draft class at DT. You can also say we missed Brian Burns. Looking back, I'd trade Oliver for any one of them, straight up.

[Mr. Pink]

Difference?

Patrick Mahomes.

We have one of those generational talented guys at QB, who will likely be a HOFer when he's done however Mahomes before his career is even done will be in the conversations about all time great at the position.

[cas22]

Where are the Bills Mahomes, Kelce and Jones? We have Allen. Cook and Kincaid are still early in their career; I don't know I'll put them in the Kelce, Jones, or Hill (departed) category in term of HoF level players.

That is the theme I've been on. The Bills have not hit any of them other than Allen. Not an indictment on Beane - he at least got one and may have a few that turn out to be. But prior to Beane, the previous regime really didn't leave us with anything. Kyle Williams was good, that's about it. The one who could've been here is Jason Peters and we didn't want to pay him. Did I left over anyone who could've carried over to Beane -McDermott era?

Oliver is a good player but we didn't get the a Jones caliber one from the same draft class: we have no shot at Quinnen Williams, Christian Wilkens is about the same as Oliver, might be a tad better. Dexter Lawrence is better, Jeffrey Simmons is the one we really missed out - he's best of the that draft class at DT. You can also say we missed Brian Burns. Looking back, I'd trade Oliver for any one of them, straight up.

I agree we don't have a Chris Jones talent on defense, but Allen is as good as Mahomes and Kincaid and Cook together = Kelce in my eyes, the biggest difference on offence is Andy Reid and a west coast offense which I'd give my left nut for Buffalo to change too.

[cas22]

Difference?

Patrick Mahomes.

We have one of those generational talented guys at QB, who will likely be a HOFer when he's done however Mahomes before his career is even done will be in the conversations about all time great at the position.

Im gonna disagree, If Allen was in Kc he would have 3 SB rings, the difference is Andy Reid and his scheme,, remember Reid fired McD in Philly.

great QBs all have great head coach's, can we really say McD is on pace to be a HOF coach?

[Mr. Pink]

Im gonna disagree, If Allen was in Kc he would have 3 SB rings, the difference is Andy Reid and his scheme,, remember Reid fired McD in Philly.

great QBs all have great head coach's, can we really say McD is on pace to be a HOF coach?

Flip Allen and Mahomes and the Bills have 3 SB wins and the Chiefs have none.

Give Mahomes, Diggs, Shakir and Davis to throw to instead of Hardman, MVS and Toney and you'd see back to the days of Mahomes throwing for 5000 yards and 40 TDs.

[notacon]

The difference between the Bills and Chefs IS "very simple"

Patrick Mahomes.

[cas22]

Flip Allen and Mahomes and the Bills have 3 SB wins and the Chiefs have none.

Give Mahomes, Diggs, Shakir and Davis to throw to instead of Hardman, MVS and Toney and you'd see back to the days of Mahomes throwing for 5000 yards and 40 TDs.

no way, Allen is as good if not better than Mahomes when it comes to talent, I do agree Allen would have 3 rings maybe 4 if he was in KC...

- - - Updated - - -


Flip Allen and Mahomes and the Bills have 3 SB wins and the Chiefs have none.

Give Mahomes, Diggs, Shakir and Davis to throw to instead of Hardman, MVS and Toney and you'd see back to the days of Mahomes throwing for 5000 yards and 40 TDs.

not in our offensive scheme..

[cas22]

allen had 4300 passing yards, Mahomes 4100

Allen had 29 passing TDs Mahomes had 27

Allen had 385 completions Mahomes had 401 that 16 less

Allen had 534 rushing yards Mahomes had 389

Allen had 15 rushing TDs Mahomes had 0

Allen had 18 ints Mahomes had 14 4 less



so Mahomes if the difference ??

[notacon]

Im gonna disagree, If Allen was in Kc he would have 3 SB rings, the difference is Andy Reid and his scheme,, remember Reid fired McD in Philly.

great QBs all have great head coach's, can we really say McD is on pace to be a HOF coach?


NOPE!!!!

If Allen was in KC he would probably have NO Super Bowl wins.

If Mahomes was in Buffalo, he probably would have had THREE.

I've posted the FACTS (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/264044-Is-Josh-Allen-the-very-normal-simple-to-please-man-we-think-he-is?p=5051528&viewfull=1#post5051528) several times. Some just simply do not want to accept what is GLARINGLY obvious.

_____________________________________________________________

the Chiefs were a very good team with a very good QB, Alex Smith (with Kelce) from his first year with KC. Their playoff success?? Not much.

2013 - one and out - lost in WC round
2014 - missed playoffs
2015 - won WC, lost Div to NE and Brady
2016 - one and out - lost in Div to Pittsburgh (did not play in WC, they were #2 seed)
2017 - one and out - lost to Tenn in WC


For the math challenged, that is a 1-4 record.

2018 Patrick Mahomes takes over as starting QB....

2018 - lost in AFCC to NE and Brady (they had fist round bye via #1 seed)
2019 - won Super Bowl beating HOU in Div, and Tenn in AFCC. Did not have to play against NE and Brady. (they had fist round bye via #2 seed)
2020 - lost SB to Tampa Bay and TOM BRADY. (they had fist round bye via #1 seed) - Bills get #2 seed but because of playoff change do NOT get first round bye.
2021 - lost to Cincy in AFCC - they did NOT get first round bye
2022 - won SB - (they had fist round bye via #1 seed)

Sensing a pattern here???? No Mahomes, no success. Mahomes - great success.

Same with Belichick and Brady.

Same with Paul Brown and Otto Graham (yes, the great Paul Brown never won a championship without Otto Graham at QB).

Same with Vince Lombardi and Bart Starr (yes, the great Vince Lombardi never won a championship without Bart Starr at QB).
_____________________________________________________________

Andy Reid was head coach for TWENTY ONE YEARS until he won his first Super Bowl.


In Philly he had DONOVAN MCNABB for TEN YEARS and could not win one. His teams (with McNAbb) LOST THREE CONSECUTIVE NFC CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES. Before FINALLY making it to the Super Bowl where his team LOST!!!

The Chiefs won a LOT of games with Alex Smith....in FACT, as Mike Sando observes (https://theathletic.com/5234530/2024/02/05/chiefs-49ers-super-bowl-lviii-rosters/?source=freedailyemail&campaign=601983)....

"For as much as quarterback Patrick Mahomes drives the team’s success, coach Andy Reid’s .658 win rate in 76 games with Alex Smith behind center exceeds the career winning percentages for Bill Belichick, Tom Landry, Bud Grant, Joe Gibbs, Bill Walsh and Reid himself."


Reid is a very good coach. Patrick Mahomes made him a Super Bowl winning coach.

[cas22]

NOPE!!!!

If Allen was in KC he would probably have NO Super Bowl wins.

If Mahomes was in Buffalo, he probably would have had THREE.

I've posted the FACTS (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/264044-Is-Josh-Allen-the-very-normal-simple-to-please-man-we-think-he-is?p=5051528&viewfull=1#post5051528) several times. Some just simply do not want to accept what is GLARINGLY obvious.

_____________________________________________________________

the Chiefs were a very good team with a very good QB, Alex Smith (with Kelce) from his first year with KC. Their playoff success?? Not much.

2013 - one and out - lost in WC round
2014 - missed playoffs
2015 - won WC, lost Div to NE and Brady
2016 - one and out - lost in Div to Pittsburgh (did not play in WC, they were #2 seed)
2017 - one and out - lost to Tenn in WC


For the math challenged, that is a 1-4 record.

2018 Patrick Mahomes takes over as starting QB....

2018 - lost in AFCC to NE and Brady (they had fist round bye via #1 seed)
2019 - won Super Bowl beating HOU in Div, and Tenn in AFCC. Did not have to play against NE and Brady. (they had fist round bye via #2 seed)
2020 - lost SB to Tampa Bay and TOM BRADY. (they had fist round bye via #1 seed) - Bills get #2 seed but because of playoff change do NOT get first round bye.
2021 - lost to Cincy in AFCC - they did NOT get first round bye
2022 - won SB - (they had fist round bye via #1 seed)

Sensing a pattern here???? No Mahomes, no success. Mahomes - great success.

Same with Belichick and Brady.

Same with Paul Brown and Otto Graham (yes, the great Paul Brown never won a championship without Otto Graham at QB).

Same with Vince Lombardi and Bart Starr (yes, the great Vince Lombardi never won a championship without Bart Starr at QB).
_____________________________________________________________

Andy Reid was head coach for TWENTY ONE YEARS until he won his first Super Bowl.


In Philly he had DONOVAN MCNABB for TEN YEARS and could not win one. His teams (with McNAbb) LOST THREE CONSECUTIVE NFC CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES. Before FINALLY making it to the Super Bowl where his team LOST!!!

The Chiefs won a LOT of games with Alex Smith....in FACT, as Mike Sando observes (https://theathletic.com/5234530/2024/02/05/chiefs-49ers-super-bowl-lviii-rosters/?source=freedailyemail&campaign=601983)....

"For as much as quarterback Patrick Mahomes drives the team’s success, coach Andy Reid’s .658 win rate in 76 games with Alex Smith behind center exceeds the career winning percentages for Bill Belichick, Tom Landry, Bud Grant, Joe Gibbs, Bill Walsh and Reid himself."


Reid is a very good coach. Patrick Mahomes made him a Super Bowl winning coach.
thats strictly your opinion.. I disagree right along with 100 experts, if mahomes would have been in this offense he might be on the shelf, they are 2 entirely different schemes, something Allen would thrive in, Mahomes isn't a bruising runner like Allen nor could he take the pounding Allen has endured so far, take Kelce off KC and they don't even make the playoffs .. Mahomes has never been on a none playoff caliber team in his career, Allen was thrown to the fire with no talrnt around him..

[YardRat]

The last post had a bad link and was making the thread unreadable.

[sahlensguy]

Talent didn't cause us to lose 13 seconds.

Talent didn't cause our collapse after the 2 minute warning.

The difference is that they have the "it" factor, relatively speaking.

[Oaf]

Talent didn't cause us to lose 13 seconds.

Talent didn't cause our collapse after the 2 minute warning.

The difference is that they have the "it" factor, relatively speaking.

"It" being relatively strategic and not so tight.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

I agree we don't have a Chris Jones talent on defense, but Allen is as good as Mahomes and Kincaid and Cook together = Kelce in my eyes, the biggest difference on offence is Andy Reid and a west coast offense which I'd give my left nut for Buffalo to change too.

Kincaid << Kelce. Before this year I would use <<< but Kelce has a down year in general. But he sure showed up in the playoffs. I'm not down on Kincaid because he is a rookie after all.
Cook? He might be the best we had since McCoy, but whether he is better than Pacheco is still a question. Sure Cook has a more yards but per carrier number is very similar. Pacheco had a lot less carries and had 9 total TDs.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Speaking of Pacheco, that brings me to another issue in Bills chasing the Chiefs for the glory. Both teams are paying QB big money so the cap is going to be an issue for both. Winning on draft days are going to be a key factor (injury of course is an unknown factor).

That 2022 draft, the Bills had Elam, Cook, Bernard, Shakir, Ariza, Benford, Tenuta, and Spector. A year later, I can say 4 starters (I count Shakir starting next year) and 1 ST contributer. Very good draft in its own right.

Now look at the Chiefs draft that year - 8 oout the 10 picks making significant contribution by the snaps they played. 1 star already (McDuffie), 2 other budding stars Karlaftis and Pacheco.
Chiefs 2022 Draft Class and grade ranks among rookies
<colgroup style="box-sizing: inherit;"><col width="65" style="box-sizing: inherit;"><col width="116" style="box-sizing: inherit;"><col width="36" style="box-sizing: inherit;"><col width="95" style="box-sizing: inherit;"><col width="77" style="box-sizing: inherit;"><col width="81" style="box-sizing: inherit;"></colgroup><tbody style="box-sizing: inherit;">
Pick No.
Name
Pos.
Offensive/defensive Snaps
PFF Grade
Grade rank


21
Trent McDuffie (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/trent-mcduffie/72191)
CB
809
73.5
3 of 26


30
George Karlaftis (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/george-karlaftis/98319)
EDGE
791
50.3
16 of 19


54
Skyy Moore (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/skyy-moore/97116)
WR
371
67.7
8 of 11


62
Bryan Cook (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/bryan-cook/55940)
S
387
60.6
6 of 9


103
Leo Chenal (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/leo-chenal/101463)
LB
278
66.7
1 of 11


135
Joshua Williams (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/joshua-williams/156083)
CB
499
63.2
15 of 26


145
Darian Kinnard (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/darian-kinnard/51789)
OT
0
—
—


243
Jaylen Watson (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jaylen-watson/131960)
CB
719
59.6
17 of 26


251
Isiah Pacheco (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/isiah-pacheco/83747)
HB
414
76.3
5 of 10


260
Nazeeh Johnson (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/nazeeh-johnson/42553)
CB
0
—
—

</tbody>

[Mad Max]

Speaking of Pacheco, that brings me to another issue in Bills chasing the Chiefs for the glory. Both teams are paying QB big money so the cap is going to be an issue for both. Winning on draft days are going to be a key factor (injury of course is an unknown factor).

That 2022 draft, the Bills had Elam, Cook, Bernard, Shakir, Ariza, Benford, Tenuta, and Spector. A year later, I can say 4 starters (I count Shakir starting next year) and 1 ST contributer. Very good draft in its own right.

Now look at the Chiefs draft that year - 8 oout the 10 picks making significant contribution by the snaps they played. 1 star already (McDuffie), 2 other budding stars Karlaftis and Pacheco.
Chiefs 2022 Draft Class and grade ranks among rookies


<tbody>
Pick No.
Name
Pos.
Offensive/defensive Snaps
PFF Grade
Grade rank


21
Trent McDuffie (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/trent-mcduffie/72191)
CB
809
73.5
3 of 26


30
George Karlaftis (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/george-karlaftis/98319)
EDGE
791
50.3
16 of 19


54
Skyy Moore (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/skyy-moore/97116)
WR
371
67.7
8 of 11


62
Bryan Cook (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/bryan-cook/55940)
S
387
60.6
6 of 9


103
Leo Chenal (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/leo-chenal/101463)
LB
278
66.7
1 of 11


135
Joshua Williams (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/joshua-williams/156083)
CB
499
63.2
15 of 26


145
Darian Kinnard (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/darian-kinnard/51789)
OT
0
—
—


243
Jaylen Watson (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jaylen-watson/131960)
CB
719
59.6
17 of 26


251
Isiah Pacheco (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/isiah-pacheco/83747)
HB
414
76.3
5 of 10


260
Nazeeh Johnson (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/nazeeh-johnson/42553)
CB
0
—
—

</tbody>


Yep. We gotta cash in 3-4 draft picks including at least one game changer.

Beane’s a power hitter that likes to swing for the fences so he’s gonna strike out a fair amount …but he’s also gonna crush one out of the park on occasion along with some doubles and triples (like Shakir, Benford, and Cook).

im fine with that strategy. Beats a bunch of meh players like our previous regime used to always net us, or Jimmy Johnson’s picks with the fish or Belichicks picks.

[DraftBoy]

I don't buy that. These two guys are really excellent players OK ... but the recency bias is profound. Allen has more talent and capability than Mahomes he just doesn't apply his brain the same way so he ends up being inferior to a lot of folks.

No, Allen doesn’t. He’s tremendous and capable of one day winning a Super Bowl, but he’s not at the same level as Mahomes.

[Historian]

talent evaluation is the #1 difference, hear me out!

KC has 3 guys left on this years team vs there 1st SuperBowl victory with Mahomes, they are Mahomes ,Kelce and Chris Jones on defense, year in and year out they move on from players demanding big salary's or expiring contracts.

who doe's that sound like? New England when they had Brady.. we need to start drafting and quit worrying about guys that had decent play in years past, we have Allen Cook , Kincaid and Oliver on defense, do the same..

we are just the opposite as KC, we try and re-sign everyone... KC has went through 2 left tackles, we have Dawkins, we have resigned way to many guys like Hyde and Poyer and White and Milano and Diggs and Knox just for starter.

in order to win and keep the cap in check you have to get play out of young guys while they are under there 1st contract then move on, but you have to know talent and that just might be where The Bills are different from the KC's and NE's of the Brady years.
This is a really good point.

And it's the reason the Patriots were never in "cap hell" during their 20 year run.

Once a guy got too expensive, he was jettisoned out for draft picks....draft picks who pretty much had immediate impact.

The only X factor is injuries, and NE, as well as the current Chiefs have gotten very lucky in avoiding them, probably since the teams were younger....and they played on real grass.

[jamze132]

Anyone crapping on Josh Allen is a complete fool. He is plenty good enough to win multiple Super Bowls but it’s a TEAM game. He’s not out kicking FGs or covering TEs.

I stand behind this…if we had Milano or Bernard playing instead of Klein, we’d have beat KC and they wouldn’t look like the team they appear to be. Any one of four teams were good enough to win the SB this year. It takes a bit of luck sometimes too. One thing KC does have a distinct advantage though is their coaching. They don’t make stupid decisions.

[sahlensguy]

Anyone crapping on Josh Allen is a complete fool. He is plenty good enough to win multiple Super Bowls but it’s a TEAM game. He’s not out kicking FGs or covering TEs.

I stand behind this…if we had Milano or Bernard playing instead of Klein, we’d have beat KC and they wouldn’t look like the team they appear to be. Any one of four teams were good enough to win the SB this year. It takes a bit of luck sometimes too. One thing KC does have a distinct advantage though is their coaching. They don’t make stupid decisions.

Anyone not crapping on Josh's two minute performances a complete idiot.

[Canadian'eh!]

Andy Reid is an offensive genius.

Nobody on the Bills can sniff his undies.

Combine that with the best QB to ever breath (yes, I said it), and the best TE to ever breath (yes, I said it again), and it's an unstoppable force.

Not to mention their Defense was lights out this year.

Reid/Spags having Mahomes, Kelce and Jones.

[DraftBoy]

Reid/Spags having Mahomes, Kelce and Jones.

A key difference though would be that both Reid and Spags have a long history of winning before Mahomes, Kelce, and Jones. I don’t think it’s quite fair to assume their current success is because they have those three now.

[Canadian'eh!]

A key difference though would be that both Reid and Spags have a long history of winning before Mahomes, Kelce, and Jones. I don’t think it’s quite fair to assume their current success is because they have those three now.
I’m saying it’s the combination of great coaches with great players. You can be a great coach but you need those key guys.

Spags coached a great D, but several times in the playoffs Jones gave them that extra special play they needed.

Reid makes life easy for Mahomes and vice versa.

[jamze132]

Anyone not crapping on Josh's two minute performances a complete idiot.

You’re ignoring the other good things he did to put his team in a position to win. No other team scored more points against the Chiefs in the playoffs than Josh Allen. To pin the entire loss on him is plain stupid.

[imbondz]

Mahomes has been in the league 6 years and has been to 6 AFC Championship games, won 3 SBs, 3 SB MVPs. He’s the reason. Reid is one of the greatest coaches ever but never won a SB until Mahomes. It’s Mahomes. Our only hope is that Allen can get one like Manning did against Brady.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

This is a really good point.

And it's the reason the Patriots were never in "cap hell" during their 20 year run.

Once a guy got too expensive, he was jettisoned out for draft picks....draft picks who pretty much had immediate impact.

The only X factor is injuries, and NE, as well as the current Chiefs have gotten very lucky in avoiding them, probably since the teams were younger....and they played on real grass.
Two factors for the Bills. 1) McDermott and Beane are still chasing the 1st one, as such they tend to hold-on to said expansive players and hope next year is the year ... NE of the past and KC would never do a Von kind of deal bringing an aging vet to wreck your cap for a few years because they had won without him. 2) the culture is a big thing for McDermott in a 2nd or 3rd level market of Buffalo. There is a ruthless side of the business we saw time again in NE and KC but will be hard for McDermott/Beane. Let's see what they do with White.

[sahlensguy]

You’re ignoring the other good things he did to put his team in a position to win. No other team scored more points against the Chiefs in the playoffs than Josh Allen. To pin the entire loss on him is plain stupid.

How am I ignoring the previous 58 minutes?

He played well. The team played good enough to have a great chance of exorcising some demons. They/Josh crapped the bed after the time out

[Historian]

Mahomes has been in the league 6 years and has been to 6 AFC Championship games, won 3 SBs, 3 SB MVPs. He’s the reason. Reid is one of the greatest coaches ever but never won a SB until Mahomes. It’s Mahomes. Our only hope is that Allen can get one like Manning did against Brady.

And I'm sorry, but a big part of that is the lame AFC West, which has essentially been a one-horse pony since the merger.

I'll die on that hill, because that's a big advantage when it comes to playoff seeding and tiebreakers.

[Forward_Lateral]

This is a really good point.

And it's the reason the Patriots were never in "cap hell" during their 20 year run.

Once a guy got too expensive, he was jettisoned out for draft picks....draft picks who pretty much had immediate impact.

The only X factor is injuries, and NE, as well as the current Chiefs have gotten very lucky in avoiding them, probably since the teams were younger....and they played on real grass.
One of the main reasons they were never in cap hell was Brady never demanded to be the highest paid at his position. If I remember correctly, his pay was always modest compared to other guys like Manning, Favre, etc

- - - Updated - - -


A key difference though would be that both Reid and Spags have a long history of winning before Mahomes, Kelce, and Jones. I don’t think it’s quite fair to assume their current success is because they have those three now.
What did Reid win before he had those 3?

I thought the only thing that mattered was superbowls?

[cas22]

Speaking of Pacheco, that brings me to another issue in Bills chasing the Chiefs for the glory. Both teams are paying QB big money so the cap is going to be an issue for both. Winning on draft days are going to be a key factor (injury of course is an unknown factor).

That 2022 draft, the Bills had Elam, Cook, Bernard, Shakir, Ariza, Benford, Tenuta, and Spector. A year later, I can say 4 starters (I count Shakir starting next year) and 1 ST contributer. Very good draft in its own right.

Now look at the Chiefs draft that year - 8 oout the 10 picks making significant contribution by the snaps they played. 1 star already (McDuffie), 2 other budding stars Karlaftis and Pacheco.
Chiefs 2022 Draft Class and grade ranks among rookies


<tbody>
Pick No.
Name
Pos.
Offensive/defensive Snaps
PFF Grade
Grade rank


21
Trent McDuffie (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/trent-mcduffie/72191)
CB
809
73.5
3 of 26


30
George Karlaftis (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/george-karlaftis/98319)
EDGE
791
50.3
16 of 19


54
Skyy Moore (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/skyy-moore/97116)
WR
371
67.7
8 of 11


62
Bryan Cook (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/bryan-cook/55940)
S
387
60.6
6 of 9


103
Leo Chenal (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/leo-chenal/101463)
LB
278
66.7
1 of 11


135
Joshua Williams (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/joshua-williams/156083)
CB
499
63.2
15 of 26


145
Darian Kinnard (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/darian-kinnard/51789)
OT
0
—
—


243
Jaylen Watson (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jaylen-watson/131960)
CB
719
59.6
17 of 26


251
Isiah Pacheco (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/isiah-pacheco/83747)
HB
414
76.3
5 of 10


260
Nazeeh Johnson (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/nazeeh-johnson/42553)
CB
0
—
—

</tbody>

this is my point i'm not sure our scouting dept is all that, take Allen out of the equation and Mcd and Bean probably would have been fired already.. no other Bean draft pick is what I call a great pick, he has had some good ones in later rounds but there not steals.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

this is my point i'm not sure our scouting dept is all that, take Allen out of the equation and Mcd and Bean probably would have been fired already.. no other Bean draft pick is what I call a great pick, he has had some good ones in later rounds but there not steals.

You can't take Allen out of the equation, just like you cannot say for KC to take Mahomes out of the equation. It's a gamble we both won, but teams like 49ers lost.

My point is that we need to do better drafting in order to chase KC, not compared to the rest of the league. We both draft near the bottom every year and we have to gain on them. As it is now, KC has all those rookies for cheap in the next 2 years after winning 2 Superbowl in a row. There should be high urgency on Beane. It is hard because you have not won but you have to stick to your principle: cultivate draft and not making irrational decisions going for it all by going after expensive yesterday's heros. Evaluate your own player objectively. Let go non super star players. If you have Mahomes, Kelce, Jones type of guys, hold onto to them. Everyone else is replaceable from the draft.

I'm also surprised no one has raided the KC front office the last 2 years. Usually these things even out when one front office does outstanding work. NE in its run, GM, Coaches were picked apart by other teams completely and left BB himself standing, and you see the result in his last few years.

[Forward_Lateral]

You can't take Allen out of the equation, just like you cannot say for KC to take Mahomes out of the equation. It's a gamble we both won, but teams like 49ers lost.

My point is that we need to do better drafting in order to chase KC, not compared to the rest of the league. We both draft near the bottom every year and we have to gain on them. As it is now, KC has all those rookies for cheap in the next 2 years after winning 2 Superbowl in a row. There should be high urgency on Beane. It is hard because you have not won but you have to stick to your principle: cultivate draft and not making irrational decisions going for it all by going after expensive yesterday's heros. Evaluate your own player objectively. Let go non super star players. If you have Mahomes, Kelce, Jones type of guys, hold onto to them. Everyone else is replaceable from the draft.

I'm also surprised no one has raided the KC front office the last 2 years. Usually these things even out when one front office does outstanding work. NE in its run, GM, Coaches were picked apart by other teams completely and left BB himself standing, and you see the result in his last few years.

This. You can't afford to pay a franchise QB and then pay a WR 30 million a year. The formula of both the Patriots and Chiefs has been this. Get your QB. Built through the draft and free agents that fit your team and won't break the bank.

[imbondz]

And I'm sorry, but a big part of that is the lame AFC West, which has essentially been a one-horse pony since the merger.

I'll die on that hill, because that's a big advantage when it comes to playoff seeding and tiebreakers.
Can’t argue with that. If Chiefs were in our division we definitely would have one 1-2 division titles over the past 6 years with them in our division. Doesn’t mean we would have beaten them in the playoffs tho. Cuz we’ve proven we can yet.

[notacon]

thats strictly your opinion.. I disagree right along with 100 experts, if mahomes would have been in this offense he might be on the shelf, they are 2 entirely different schemes, something Allen would thrive in, Mahomes isn't a bruising runner like Allen nor could he take the pounding Allen has endured so far, take Kelce off KC and they don't even make the playoffs .. Mahomes has never been on a none playoff caliber team in his career, Allen was thrown to the fire with no talrnt around him..

Yes, Josh Allen did not have a "playoff caliber" team around him his rookie year. He did every other year of his career, and especially starting 2020 when the traded for Diggs.

A lot of people around the league were saying the Chiefs were a diminished team when Treek Hill left. Baloney. They have now won two SB's without him, and today have a sad sack group of below average WR's around him. BTW, Kelce was on the team for FIVE YEARS when Smith was QB....not even close to a SB.


No Mahomes...no SB. Mahomes...multiple SB's.

In any event, I presented FACTS about Reid and Mahomes.

The same facts exist for multiple Super Bowl winning coaches. They almost all (Joe Gibbs is the anomaly) won when they had elite QB's, and did not win then they did not have one.

There are only 14 NFL head coaches that have one more than one SB....


<tbody>

Years HC
# of Teams
# SB Wins
QB




Bill Belichick (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Belichick)
24
2
6
All with Tom Brady




Chuck Noll (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Noll)
23
1
4
All with Terry Bradshw




Bill Walsh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Walsh_(American_football_coach))
10
1
3
All with Joe Montana




Joe Gibbs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Gibbs)
16
1
3
Joe Theisman
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien


Andy Reid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Reid)
26
2
3
All with Patrick Mahomes




Vince Lombardi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Lombardi)
9
2
2
Both with Bart Starr




Tom Flores (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Flores)
12
2
2
Both with Jim Plunkett




Jimmy Johnson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Johnson_(American_football_coach))
9
2
2
Both with Troy Aikman




George Seifert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Seifert)
14
2
2
Joe Montana
Steve Young



Mike Shanahan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Shanahan)
20
3
2
Both with John Elway




Tom Coughlin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Coughlin)
21
2
2
Both with Eli Manning




Bill Parcells (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Parcells)
19
4
2
Phil Simms
Phil Simms/Jeff Hostetler*



Don Shula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Shula)
33
2
2
Both with Bob Griese




Tom Landry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Landry)
29
1
2
Both with Roger Staubach



</tbody>

*Phil Simms was the QB that got the 1990 NY Giants to the Super Bowl. He was injured in week #15.

NO NFL HC has ever won a Super Bowl with two different teams.

TWO QB's HAVE. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Two other QB's started a Super Bowls for two different teams...Kurt Warner (won one) and Craig Morton (did not win any as starter).

The anomaly of a HC winning SB's with multiple QB's (two of which were not elite and journeymen) is Joe Gibbs. Notably, those SB wins were before the salary cap era and especially the myriad of rules changes to protect the QB, and exponentially increase the importance of the passing game.

Great QB"s MAKE great coaches.

The most stunning example of that is Bill Belichick. No Brady, not even close to a SB. Brady goes to another team, and he makes long time coach Bruce Arians (FORTY SIX YEARS in coaching at all levels including NINE different NFL franchises for 28 years, including eight years as HC for two different NFL teams) look like a great HC by winning a Super Bowl...the only SB title he ever got.

No Brady....NO SB for Belichick
No Brady...NO SB for Arians.
No Patrick Mahomes....NO SB for Reid.

I am not saying that a good head coach is not necessary to win a SB. But if I were to dole out the degree of importance, my opinion for SB success is 75% QB...25% coach.

Josh Allen has at least 10 more years to prove that he is one of those QB's and I predict he WILL win multiple Super Bowls with the Bills and McD as HC. And JOSH will be the reason why. <style>table {mso-displayed-decimal-separator:"\."; mso-displayed-thousand-separator:"\,";}tr {mso-height-source:auto;}col {mso-width-source:auto;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}td {padding-top:1px; padding-right:1px; padding-left:1px; mso-ignore:padding; color:black; font-size:11.0pt; font-weight:400; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-family:Verdana, sans-serif; mso-font-charset:0; mso-number-format:General; text-align:general; vertical-align:bottom; border:none; mso-background-source:auto; mso-pattern:auto; mso-protection:locked visible; white-space:nowrap; mso-rotate:0;}.xl65 {text-align:center;}.xl66 {border:.5pt solid windowtext;}.xl67 {text-align:center; border:.5pt solid windowtext;}.xl68 {color:#0563C1; text-decoration:underline; text-underline-style:single; border:.5pt solid windowtext;}.xl69 {color:#0563C1; text-decoration:underline; text-underline-style:single; text-align:center; border:.5pt solid windowtext;}</style>

[jamze132]

Yes, Josh Allen did not have a "playoff caliber" team around him his rookie year. He did every other year of his career, and especially starting 2020 when the traded for Diggs.

A lot of people around the league were saying the Chiefs were a diminished team when Treek Hill left. Baloney. They have now won two SB's without him, and today have a sad sack group of below average WR's around him. BTW, Kelce was on the team for FIVE YEARS when Smith was QB....not even close to a SB.


No Mahomes...no SB. Mahomes...multiple SB's.

In any event, I presented FACTS about Reid and Mahomes.

The same facts exist for multiple Super Bowl winning coaches. They almost all (Joe Gibbs is the anomaly) won when they had elite QB's, and did not win then they did not have one.

There are only 14 NFL head coaches that have one more than one SB....


<tbody>

Years HC
# of Teams
# SB Wins
QB




Bill Belichick (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Belichick)
24
2
6
All with Tom Brady




Chuck Noll (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Noll)
23
1
4
All with Terry Bradshw




Bill Walsh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Walsh_(American_football_coach))
10
1
3
All with Joe Montana




Joe Gibbs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Gibbs)
16
1
3
Joe Theisman
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien


Andy Reid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Reid)
26
2
3
All with Patrick Mahomes




Vince Lombardi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Lombardi)
9
2
2
Both with Bart Starr




Tom Flores (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Flores)
12
2
2
Both with Jim Plunkett




Jimmy Johnson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Johnson_(American_football_coach))
9
2
2
Both with Troy Aikman




George Seifert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Seifert)
14
2
2
Joe Montana
Steve Young



Mike Shanahan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Shanahan)
20
3
2
Both with John Elway




Tom Coughlin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Coughlin)
21
2
2
Both with Eli Manning




Bill Parcells (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Parcells)
19
4
2
Phil Simms
Phil Simms/Jeff Hostetler*



Don Shula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Shula)
33
2
2
Both with Bob Griese




Tom Landry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Landry)
29
1
2
Both with Roger Staubach



</tbody>

*Phil Simms was the QB that got the 1990 NY Giants to the Super Bowl. He was injured in week #15.

NO NFL HC has ever won a Super Bowl with two different teams.

TWO QB's HAVE. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Two other QB's started a Super Bowls for two different teams...Kurt Warner (won one) and Craig Morton (did not win any as starter).

The anomaly of a HC winning SB's with multiple QB's (two of which were not elite and journeymen) is Joe Gibbs. Notably, those SB wins were before the salary cap era and especially the myriad of rules changes to protect the QB, and exponentially increase the importance of the passing game.

Great QB"s MAKE great coaches.

The most stunning example of that is Bill Belichick. No Brady, not even close to a SB. Brady goes to another team, and he makes long time coach Bruce Arians (FORTY SIX YEARS in coaching at all levels including NINE different NFL franchises for 28 years, including eight years as HC for two different NFL teams) look like a great HC by winning a Super Bowl...the only SB title he ever got.

No Brady....NO SB for Belichick
No Brady...NO SB for Arians.
No Patrick Mahomes....NO SB for Reid.

I am not saying that a good head coach is not necessary to win a SB. But if I were to dole out the degree of importance, my opinion for SB success is 75% QB...25% coach.

Josh Allen has at least 10 more years to prove that he is one of those QB's and I predict he WILL win multiple Super Bowls with the Bills and McD as HC. And JOSH will be the reason why. <style>table {mso-displayed-decimal-separator:"\."; mso-displayed-thousand-separator:"\,";}tr {mso-height-source:auto;}col {mso-width-source:auto;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}td {padding-top:1px; padding-right:1px; padding-left:1px; mso-ignore:padding; color:black; font-size:11.0pt; font-weight:400; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-family:Verdana, sans-serif; mso-font-charset:0; mso-number-format:General; text-align:general; vertical-align:bottom; border:none; mso-background-source:auto; mso-pattern:auto; mso-protection:locked visible; white-space:nowrap; mso-rotate:0;}.xl65 {text-align:center;}.xl66 {border:.5pt solid windowtext;}.xl67 {text-align:center; border:.5pt solid windowtext;}.xl68 {color:#0563C1; text-decoration:underline; text-underline-style:single; border:.5pt solid windowtext;}.xl69 {color:#0563C1; text-decoration:underline; text-underline-style:single; text-align:center; border:.5pt solid windowtext;}</style>

Smartest thing you’ve said in days…

[sukie]

Great QB or a specific QB? I believe Bill and Andy would have won with a different great QB

[Woodman]

And I'm sorry, but a big part of that is the lame AFC West, which has essentially been a one-horse pony since the merger.

I'll die on that hill, because that's a big advantage when it comes to playoff seeding and tiebreakers.

Just the facts! :cheers:

I'm hopeful that the addition of Harbaugh will disrupt that situation.

[Woodman]

This is a really good point.

And it's the reason the Patriots were never in "cap hell" during their 20 year run.

Once a guy got too expensive, he was jettisoned out for draft picks....draft picks who pretty much had immediate impact.



The Patriot way!

[Woodman]

No, Allen doesn’t. He’s tremendous and capable of one day winning a Super Bowl, but he’s not at the same level as Mahomes.
I believe Josh would be insanely successful in Andy's offense.

[Woodman]

Anyone crapping on Josh Allen is a complete fool. He is plenty good enough to win multiple Super Bowls but it’s a TEAM game. He’s not out kicking FGs or covering TEs.

I stand behind this…if we had Milano or Bernard playing instead of Klein, we’d have beat KC and they wouldn’t look like the team they appear to be. Any one of four teams were good enough to win the SB this year. It takes a bit of luck sometimes too. One thing KC does have a distinct advantage though is their coaching. They don’t make stupid decisions.

:10: Excellent post!

[Woodman]

Reid/Spags having Mahomes, Kelce and Jones.

Having Sneed, Jones and McDuffie they are the reason.

^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^

Take any two of those away we put 40+on the board.

We had neither starting CB and more and still fell by 3.

[Novacane]

Reid> McDermott. By a lot! That's the difference.

[sahlensguy]

Reid> McDermott. By a lot! That's the difference.

That's part of it. Mahomes is more poised than Josh in big moments though. Is Reid/McD the difference makes in that or are the 2 QBs just wired differently to begin with. We'll never really know.

[Novacane]

That's part of it. Mahomes is more poised than Josh in big moments though. Is Reid/McD the difference makes in that or are the 2 QBs just wired differently to begin with. We'll never really know.

True. I'd like to think Reid could have coached a lot of Josh's recklessness out of him. He's apparently fine with players pushing him and screaming in his face so maybe Josh wouldn't have listened to him either.

[sahlensguy]

True. I'd like to think Reid could have coached a lot of Josh's recklessness out of him. He's apparently fine with players pushing him and screaming in his face so maybe Josh wouldn't have listened to him either.

Josh's recklessness isn't his biggest problem. It's his lack of championship mentality, at least from a football standpoint. Mahonmes has way more fire in him. Josh plants himself on the end of the bench when he's not out there. Sums up his off the field demeanor for me. Like Reid/Kelce, Diggs can yell in his face and he just takes it.

[notacon]

Reid> McDermott. By a lot! That's the difference.


Nonsense.

Mahomes>Allen. By just enough. That's the difference.

[Novacane]

Nonsense.

Mahomes>Allen. By just enough. That's the difference.


If you don't think Reid is a better coach than Mcd than you're only the 2nd person in the world who thinks that. McD's wife is the first.

[Typ0]

The difference is our coaches do **** to lose games and don't learn while Reid minimizes those things and actually tries to help his players. McDermott doesn't really give a **** from moment to moment he has a predefined idea in his head and that is what he wants to follow through on. McDermott's persists with some very flawed ideas that undermine his success. He doesn't learn.

I also doubt McDermott teaches the players what he wants he instead dictates to them and then practices them into the zone of proximal development where he often leaves them.

He doesn't learn and make adjustments in favor of following through on the process. Basically, everyone else is doing things wrong but his systems he obviously thinks very highly of even though they keep blowing up in his face. The players always fail to do what he asks and he never perceives that as a problem with what he's asking people to do and how he is leading them to do it.

[notacon]

If you don't think Reid is a better coach than Mcd than you're only the 2nd person in the world who thinks that. McD's wife is the first.

I did not say that. Why do you feel the need to misrepresent (read: lie) about what I wrote????? Don't do that.

What I AM saying is that Reid is not THE difference....not even close.

It's Mahomes.

I have proven that without any doubt whatsoever (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5083520&viewfull=1#post5083520).

[Turf]

The difference between the Bills and Chefs IS "very simple"

Patrick Mahomes.

Yeah but it's also Reid. If the Bills had Reid and the Chiefs McD you could flip the script.

[DetoxTent]

Yeah it's the coaching.

Yeah. The OP should stop for a second and think about what Andy Reid could accomplish with the Bills roster. Super Bowl. We had a chance to get Reid. The Bills were shopping for a coach when Reid signed with KC. It was, sadly, never even considered. In 2013 Reid went to KC while the Bills signed Doug Marrone.

[DetoxTent]

That's part of it. Mahomes is more poised than Josh in big moments though. Is Reid/McD the difference makes in that or are the 2 QBs just wired differently to begin with. We'll never really know.

Much of why that is is because Reid has made Mahomes more composed than Allen. It's not just "wiring."

[sahlensguy]

Much of why that is is because Reid has made Mahomes more composed than Allen. It's not just "wiring."

We'll never know. Mahomes backed up Alex Smith his rookie year. They said it was a huge factor for his success, being drafted in the "right" situation. Allen was in as good of a spot. Who knows how much that contributed to the poise each one plays with in big moments today. It was a harsh quote at Allen's golf outing with Tiger that his signature move was to throw up before games.

[Mad Max]

We'll never know. Mahomes backed up Alex Smith his rookie year. They said it was a huge factor for his success, being drafted in the "right" situation. Allen was in as good of a spot. Who knows how much that contributed to the poise each one plays with in big moments today. It was a harsh quote at Allen's golf outing with Tiger that his signature move was to throw up before games.

Just like Josh was able to become accurate at throwing the ball when he really never was before coming to the NFL (a statistical near impossibility) we’re going to have to hope he can develop poise.

Poise is something you usually have or don’t. So Josh is gonna have to perform a second miracle.

[notacon]

Yeah but it's also Reid. If the Bills had Reid and the Chiefs McD you could flip the script.


To an extent.

I'd say 90% Mahomes...10% Reid.

[notacon]

Much of why that is is because Reid has made Mahomes more composed than Allen. It's not just "wiring."

Seriously?!?!? What absurd psychobabble. I mean really, really silly.

Reid had 21 years of head coaching. Two superior QB's in McNabb and Alex Smith.

Mahomes is (at least according to your superior psychoanalysis of NFL QB's :rolleyes:) "more composed" because it's what makes Mahomes, Mahomes.

I don't even buy the idea that he's "more composed" than Josh Allen. He makes better decision and has better instincts. That has little to do with who the HC is.

[cas22]

I believe Josh would be insanely successful in Andy's offense.

https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/427938473_18258088675225177_3710387178706714787_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s960x960&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=z2b8snkcngcAX9FYAsn&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfBriS7Dbsy6iuU9JwGzxdxwdbRD37FrVV_N1rpIptp5bQ&oe=65D77613

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Another rating, grades, whatever.

I think we all know Allen is one of the top QBs in NFL. At this point what matters is ... rings. It is a little unfair in a 22 starters sport, but it is as real as there ever is. Lionel Messi knew. Carl Malone knew, too.

[sahlensguy]

Another rating, grades, whatever.

I think we all know Allen is one of the top QBs in NFL. At this point what matters is ... rings. It is a little unfair in a 22 starters sport, but it is as real as there ever is. Lionel Messi knew. Carl Malone knew, too.
"The Mailman dont deliver on Sunday" ~ Scottie Pippen

[cas22]

Another rating, grades, whatever.

I think we all know Allen is one of the top QBs in NFL. At this point what matters is ... rings. It is a little unfair in a 22 starters sport, but it is as real as there ever is. Lionel Messi knew. Carl Malone knew, too.

you just said it all, it takes 22 men to play the game, we have the best position finally fixed now fixed around him and that includes coaching.

[sahlensguy]

you just said it all, it takes 22 men to play the game, we have the best position finally fixed now fixed around him and that includes coaching.

There are less talented QBs than Josh with more poise. JA ain't all that...not a hater

[cas22]

There are less talented QBs than Josh with more poise. JA ain't all that...not a hater

name one!

[sahlensguy]

name one!

Brock Purdy

[cas22]

Brock Purdy

give me a break. Purdy isn't the main stay in that offense, how many QBs has Shanahan had that have looked good? Jimmy G went to a superbowl in this offense minus McCaffery. and put Purdy in Buffao he would be out of the league.

[sahlensguy]

give me a break. Purdy isn't the main stay in that offense, how many QBs has Shanahan had that have looked good? Jimmy G went to a superbowl in this offense minus McCaffery. and put Purdy in Buffao he would be out of the league.

If Purdy and Allen had equal physical ability, Purdy would be the better QB. That was the point.

[Goobylal]

It's mostly coaching. Mahomes is a great QB but switch him and Josh and Josh is hoisting his 3rd Lombardi.

[Turf]

Talent didn't cause us to lose 13 seconds.

Talent didn't cause our collapse after the 2 minute warning.

The difference is that they have the "it" factor, relatively speaking.

Josh in fact beat Mahoney that game.

[sahlensguy]

Josh in fact beat Mahoney that game.
That's right (just not in the final score)

When neither McD nor Allen want to address their crunch time inadequacies, they'll never learn.

[Mad Max]

That's right (just not in the final score)

When neither McD nor Allen want to address their crunch time inadequacies, they'll never learn.
IMO neither task is insurmountable.

I see McD evolving, now he’s still a cromag not quite human but he’s getting there.

Josh needs to channel the chill of guys like Montana/Brady/Brees and not do stupid AVOIDABLE ish throughout the courier of entire games. (People too often trumpet his end of game or complete game heroics while ignoring the egregious mistakes he made in those games that made heroics necessary in the first place).

If he can avoid the easily avoidable mistake the Bills will hoist.

For example he single-handedly lost us the jets and broncos games with completely idiotic decisions. We win those games and we probably win the AFC and avoid playing in the costly WC game where those key injuries occurred which then likely cost us the Division game and…

[sahlensguy]

IMO neither task is insurmountable.

I see McD evolving, now he’s still a cromag not quite human but he’s getting there.

Josh needs to channel the chill of guys like Montana/Brady/Brees and not do stupid AVOIDABLE ish throughout the courier of entire games. (People too often trumpet his end of game or complete game heroics while ignoring the egregious mistakes he made in those games that made heroics necessary in the first place).

If he can avoid the easily avoidable mistake the Bills will hoist.

For example he single-handedly lost us the jets and broncos games with completely idiotic decisions. We win those games and we probably win the AFC and avoid playing in the costly WC game where those key injuries occurred which then likely cost us the Division game and…

We'll see.

Did you know that Allen doesn't have a single 4th quarter comeback or game winning drive in the post season? Or that Josh has yet to win a single game in OT?

McD/Allen has a longer way to go before hoisting than it appears on paper, imo.

[Mad Max]

We'll see.

Did you know that Allen doesn't have a single 4th quarter comeback or game winning drive in the post season? Or that Josh has yet to win a single game in OT?

McD/Allen has a longer way to go before hoisting than it appears on paper, imo.
Let’s what happens when they get him a WR and Brady gets a full off season of integration.

[sahlensguy]

Let’s what happens when they get him a WR and Brady gets a full off season of integration.

Yep, that's all we can do.

[Typ0]

What will happen at the WR position is intriguing. Like they could theoretically neglect the WR position, again, and still acquire multiple WRs. It would be a good thing having a guy on a rookie contract lining up on the outside if he can fill the shoes ... but that is a big ask. Shakir might really be able to do a lot. I still would not argue about seeing slot by committee with the guys we have. Shakir, Diggs, Kincaid, Cook ... send them all down through the slot in a rotation. Yeah baby. This WR we are going to add to the mix could be a huge piece or something we don't get the value out of we need.

[Goobylal]

What will happen at the WR position is intriguing. Like they could theoretically neglect the WR position, again, and still acquire multiple WRs. It would be a good thing having a guy on a rookie contract lining up on the outside if he can fill the shoes ... but that is a big ask. Shakir might really be able to do a lot. I still would not argue about seeing slot by committee with the guys we have. Shakir, Diggs, Kincaid, Cook ... send them all down through the slot in a rotation. Yeah baby. This WR we are going to add to the mix could be a huge piece or something we don't get the value out of we need.

They haven't neglected the WR yet. Since 2000, when they traded for Diggs, they were never drafting a WR high to take targets away from Diggs and make him unhappy. Now that it appears age is catching up to him, that thinking will change.

[notacon]

Here is another mind boggling fact that illustrates THE difference is Patrick Mahomes from Go Long's Mailbag Column (https://www.golongtd.com/p/mailbag-part-i-beanes-drafts-tom?utm_campaign=email-post&r=7jk34&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email)....




This stat from fellow Substacker Neil Paine boggles the brain and helps put Mahomes’ current greatness into proper perspective.

Paine writes:

“Since 2001, there have been 125 drives in the NFL postseason where it was at least the fourth quarter, there was under a minute left to play, and the team on offense trailed by seven points or fewer at the start. These are your standard clutch moments for a football team, the do-or-die drives that win and lose critical games.

“Out of those 125 drives, only 40 percent of them saw the team on offense pull off the magic trick and get the points they needed. Some quarterbacks are pretty good at it, such as Tom Brady, who went 5-for-11 (46%), or Drew Brees, who went 3-for-6 (50%). Only Patrick Mahomes, though, 7-for-7, or perfect, in those dire situations.”

[notacon]

It's mostly coaching. Mahomes is a great QB but switch him and Josh and Josh is hoisting his 3rd Lombardi.
I TOTALLY disagree.

I see it the other way.

Switch him and Josh and Mahomes is STILL hoisting his 3rd Lombardi, but for the Buffalo Bills instead.

[sahlensguy]

Here is another mind boggling fact that illustrates THE difference is Patrick Mahomes from Go Long's Mailbag Column (https://www.golongtd.com/p/mailbag-part-i-beanes-drafts-tom?utm_campaign=email-post&r=7jk34&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email)....

JA has yet to have a 4th qtr comeback or game winning drive in the playoffs.

[Mad Max]

JA has yet to have a 4th qtr comeback or game winning drive in the playoffs.

To be fair, Mahomes has Butker and Brady had Vinatieri…two of the clutchest kickers in NFL history. We have a decidedly anti-clutch keeker.

[sahlensguy]

To be fair, Mahomes has Butker and Brady had Vinatieri…two of the clutchest kickers in NFL history. We have a decidedly anti-clutch keeker.

Add in 0-5 in overtime games. The problem goes way beyond a kicker.

[Mace]

And I'm sorry, but a big part of that is the lame AFC West, which has essentially been a one-horse pony since the merger.

I'll die on that hill, because that's a big advantage when it comes to playoff seeding and tiebreakers.

Well don't die on that hill...Andrew Luck"s entire perception of success was 24-7 in a weak division. He was 53-33 career...so outside the division he was 29-26 and made it to one conference championship.

Mahomes is 30-5 division....74-22 total....outside the division 44-17.

Allen is 23-11 division...63-21 total....outside 40-20.

Two of those guys have one conference championship appearance...one has multiple super bowl titles.

If Harbaugh is successful in San Diego.....we just have another evolving brick wall in front of us to add to the chiefs,Bengals,and ravens with others coming up behind while we're still working on a passing game and crowing about our running game,trying to replace our defense,, on the 8th year of our process to hopefully sniff another conference championship appearance.

Dunno....this is not looking good to me.

[Oaf]

Josh Allen is plenty good enough to beat KC - we've seen it three regular seasons in a row. KC was the better team in BUF last month, so they won. They'll continue to do so unless we make gains via drafting and coaching, which is fairly unlikely. Assuming we don't, we'll just have to hope for a close game that we pull out at the end. Happens all the time, including our KC reg season games.

[Goobylal]

I TOTALLY disagree.

I see it the other way.

Switch him and Josh and Mahomes is STILL hoisting his 3rd Lombardi, but for the Buffalo Bills instead.

No one would take any of the Bills' OC's during Josh's time over Reid or McD over Spagnuolo.

[notacon]

No one would take any of the Bills' OC's during Josh's time over Reid or McD over Spagnuolo.

Bullcrap.

Reid could not win a SB with McNabb, or Alex Smith....both stints with stellar rosters. 21 years of HC and no SB wins UNTIL Mahomes came along.

[notacon]

Josh Allen is plenty good enough to beat KC - we've seen it three regular seasons in a row. KC was the better team in BUF last month, so they won. They'll continue to do so unless we make gains via drafting and coaching, which is fairly unlikely. Assuming we don't, we'll just have to hope for a close game that we pull out at the end. Happens all the time, including our KC reg season games.


NOPE!!!!

Buffalo was the better team than KC "last month", but Mahomes was the better QB in the clutch than Josh. It's been that way since both QB's came into the league.


That does not mean that Josh will not rise to the occasion in the future.

[Goobylal]

Bullcrap.

Reid could not win a SB with McNabb, or Alex Smith....both stints with stellar rosters. 21 years of HC and no SB wins UNTIL Mahomes came along.

Josh is better than McNabb and Smith and just as good as Mahomes. A QB on his own doesn't win SBs and no one would take the Bills' OCs and McD over Reid and Spags.

[Typ0]

The Chiefs have done a better job of managing their roster and they have better coaching. Maybe it simply is because McDermott is early career and Reid is on the cusp of entering the relic stage ... but that presence is so strong it works better with a young whipper snapper than what McDermott brings to Allen.

The Chiefs are in a position to grow right now as well....while we are gonna have to weather some storms at least this year. The Tyreek Hill trade really hurt us KC is so much better for doing that.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Chiefs had a better team against the Bills period. They are not that far apart to the point where there can be stretch of times the Bills played better than them. I will even contest the notion Mahomes really played better than Allen, this season, or the playoff game. I'm talking about overall performance of the game. You can single out plays Allen didn't make like the end of the game. But I can counter there are plays Mahomes didn't make earlier in the game that could make the game not reachable by the end.

The Chiefs have Kelce, Jones, Sneed, McDuffie other than the QB playing at all-pro level, at times HoF taking-over-the-game level. Who the Bills got besides Allen? I remember Cook had the Dallas game on that level, but nothing else. Jones was reportedly playing on one leg in the Bills playoff game and he still made impact. Von didn't do squat.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

The thing is, all of the KC guys I listed above, included departed Hill, are drafted by them, and only McDuffie was a 1st round pick - a late 1st pick at that. Everyone else is 2nd round or later. Where do the Bills stack up here? The closest ones to that caliber are resource intensive acquisition in terms of picks (Diggs) and cap (Von).

[notacon]

Josh is better than McNabb and Smith and just as good as Mahomes. A QB on his own doesn't win SBs and no one would take the Bills' OCs and McD over Reid and Spags.
:rofl: Nope.

Josh is NOT "just as good as Mahomes". What lame homerism.

Does not mean that Josh cannot get better and reduce the gap between him and Mahomes. Once he learns to make better decisions at the most crucial moments in the playoffs, he will win some SB's.

Josh is "just as good" as Joe Burrow....but neither of them is on the level of Mahomes.

Even then, at the end of each of their careers, there is NO DOUBT that Patrick Mahomes will be widely considered (like he is accurately today considered the head and shoulders best QB in the NFL) the better QB. Just like Tom Brady is considered the better QB than Peyon Manning.

[Goobylal]

:rofl: Nope.

Josh is NOT "just as good as Mahomes". What lame homerism.

Does not mean that Josh cannot get better and reduce the gap between him and Mahomes. Once he learns to make better decisions at the most crucial moments in the playoffs, he will win some SB's.

Josh is "just as good" as Joe Burrow....but neither of them is on the level of Mahomes.

Even then, at the end of each of their careers, there is NO DOUBT that Patrick Mahomes will be widely considered (like he is accurately today considered the head and shoulders best QB in the NFL) the better QB. Just like Tom Brady is considered the better QB than Peyon Manning.

Yeah he is. Again what Mahomes has is better coaching. No one would dispute this.

Now if the Bills were getting blown out by the Chefs instead of barely losing to them, you'd have a point. But they aren't so you don't.

[sahlensguy]

Yeah he is. Again what Mahomes has is better coaching. No one would dispute this.

Now if the Bills were getting blown out by the Chefs instead of barely losing to them, you'd have a point. But they aren't so you don't.

McD's ball control game plan worked great against the Chiefs...until the final 2 minutes.

What would the KC coaches' game plan have been for the Bills that would have yielded a better outcome?

[Woodman]

The thing is, all of the KC guys I listed above, included departed Hill, are drafted by them, and only McDuffie was a 1st round pick - a late 1st pick at that. Everyone else is 2nd round or later. Where do the Bills stack up here? The closest ones to that caliber are resource intensive acquisition in terms of picks (Diggs) and cap (Von).

Picked 21st overall.

We took Elam 23rd overall.

[Gibby 2.0]

We'll see.

Did you know that Allen doesn't have a single 4th quarter comeback or game winning drive in the post season? Or that Josh has yet to win a single game in OT?

McD/Allen has a longer way to go before hoisting than it appears on paper, imo.
13 seconds was on Josh? How?

[Woodman]

Picked 21st overall.

We took Elam 23rd overall.

The New England Patriots received pick Nos. 29 (first round), 94 (third), 121 (fourth) in exchange for the 21st pick.

With the 29th overall pick, the Pats selected Chattanooga guard Cole Strange (https://www.nfl.com/prospects/cole-strange/32005354-5219-1447-a46e-56c3beaaebab).

[Goobylal]

McD's ball control game plan worked great against the Chiefs...until the final 2 minutes.

What would the KC coaches' game plan have been for the Bills that would have yielded a better outcome?

Did you see the play that won the SB for the Chefs?

[sahlensguy]

Did you see the play that won the SB for the Chefs?

Mahomes to Hardman. So?

[Woodman]

The thing is, all of the KC guys I listed above, included departed Hill, are drafted by them, and only McDuffie was a 1st round pick - a late 1st pick at that. Everyone else is 2nd round or later. Where do the Bills stack up here? The closest ones to that caliber are resource intensive acquisition in terms of picks (Diggs) and cap (Von).

Draft 2022

McDuffie was pick 21 overall and Karlaftis 30 overall they had 2 first rounders in the 2022 draft.

They traded up with the Patriots to get McDuffie at 21 that year.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Woodman, thanks to bring Karlaftis' name up. I didn't included Karlaftis in my listed of the KC players because I don't think he played at the level of those, at least this season.

I agree that he trends to be a good player, somewhat resembling the trajectory of of Rousseau's career at year 2 but McDuffie is already there in year 2.

But again, my point is the big picture. McDuffie is the part result of the Hill trade. That's exactly what a team like KC should do, and I might add, Beane should've done when he gave Diggs all those money.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Woodman, thanks to bring Karlaftis' name up. I didn't included Karlaftis in my listed of the KC players because I don't think he played at the level of those, at least this season.

I agree that he trends to be a good player, somewhat resembling the trajectory of of Rousseau's career at year 2 but McDuffie is already there in year 2.

But again, my point is the big picture. McDuffie is the part result of the Hill trade. That's exactly what a team like KC should do, and I might add, Beane should've done when he gave Diggs all those money.
pure speculation on my part, but i always felt that McDuffie was the Bills target and they panicked when he was taken

[ghz in pittsburgh]

pure speculation on my part, but I always felt that McDuffie was the Bills target and they panicked when he was taken

I said many times before, I don't care position needs. If you see a potential game changer, go for it. Hindsight is 20-20. Looking back now, I'm pretty sure the Bills would try to get him in 2022, and many other teams would as well.

As far as the 2022 draft, I think we all know the Bills were looking for boundary corners. Elam had the prototypical physical traits that fits what the Bills were looking for at that position. McDuffie is a slot corner that can play outside at times; he's shorter, with shorter arms compared to Elam. So I can't be 100% sure the Bills were targeting him then.

[sahlensguy]

Yeah he is. Again what Mahomes has is better coaching. No one would dispute this.

Now if the Bills were getting blown out by the Chefs instead of barely losing to them, you'd have a point. But they aren't so you don't.

And what would Mahomes' coaches have done throughout 13 seconds to yield better results? McD and Daboll had our O humming at the highest level.

[notacon]

Yeah he is. Again what Mahomes has is better coaching. No one would dispute this.

Now if the Bills were getting blown out by the Chefs instead of barely losing to them, you'd have a point. But they aren't so you don't.


Baloney.

The difference is so slight, but it's there. And it's NOT mainly coaching.....it's in QB decision making.


In fact, your statement that "Now if the Bills were getting blown out by the Chefs instead of barely losing to them, you'd have a point". is more applicable to refuting that the coaching from the two teams is THE difference. If it was, then the Bills would be getting blown out by KC. They are not.

In FACT, the Bills have BEATEN KC THREE TIMES IN A ROW, IN KC in the regular season. If "better coaching" was THE factor, that would not have happened.


It's all about decisions made in the most crucial times in the BIGGEST games...playoff time.. That is NOT about coaching. Yes, the 2021 playoff loss Josh DID perform at an extremely high level in the clutch moment....and the coaching at 13 seconds and beyond left a lot to be desired. Josh did NOT do so in the last loss to KC. That's on JOSH, not the coaches.

BUT, notice the NEXT GAME for KC, the OT AFCC game vs Cincy, WHY DID KC LOSE?!?!?!? Mahomes made crappy decisions at critical times....first at the end of the first half when he had a brain fart and prevented KC from scoring any points when they were on the Cincy ONE YARD LINE!!!

Then, in OT, Mahomes made THREE TERRIBLE PASSES (go back and watch the ALL-22 film....I have, several times....Mahomes sucked in OT) The last one reminded me of too many of the BAD decisions that Josh makes way to often resulting in a easy INT.

It's glaringly obvious. Mahomes makes noticeably FEWER mistakes at the crucial times than Josh does. It's a FACT. Plus Mahoems makes exponentially more clutch plays at the most crucial times. That is ALSO a FACT.


This fact tells it all. (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5085277&viewfull=1#post5085277)...

“Since 2001, there have been 125 drives in the NFL postseason where it was at least the fourth quarter, there was under a minute left to play, and the team on offense trailed by seven points or fewer at the start. These are your standard clutch moments for a football team, the do-or-die drives that win and lose critical games.

“Out of those 125 drives, only 40 percent of them saw the team on offense pull off the magic trick and get the points they needed. Some quarterbacks are pretty good at it, such as Tom Brady, who went 5-for-11 (46%), or Drew Brees, who went 3-for-6 (50%). Only Patrick Mahomes, though, 7-for-7, or perfect, in those dire situations.”

[notacon]

Did you see the play that won the SB for the Chefs?

Mahomes went 8-8 and was flawless for the winning drive.....Josh Allen not even close to flawless in the last drive vs KC.

Mahomes - 8/8 42 yards
Mahomes - 2 runs for 27 yards
Pacheco - 3 runs for 6 yards


Last drive for Bills VS KC

Allen - 6/11 for 42 yards
Allen - 2 runs for 10 yards - 1 fumble (recovered by Buffalo)
Cook - 2 runs - 1 yard

[Goobylal]

Mahomes to Hardman. So?


And what would Mahomes' coaches have done throughout 13 seconds to yield better results? McD and Daboll had our O humming at the highest level.

What do you mean "so?" Hardman is a JAG and was wide ****ing open on that play. You think that's because he's such a great player/Mahomes?

And the Bills for all their "ball control" offense scored just 7 points in the 2nd half. Brady got outcoached by a guy who shut down the greatest offense in NFL history in the 2007 Cheats and then did it again in 2011. This is so obvious it doesn't even need to be said.


Baloney.

The difference is so slight, but it's there. And it's NOT mainly coaching.....it's in QB decision making.


In fact, your statement that "Now if the Bills were getting blown out by the Chefs instead of barely losing to them, you'd have a point". is more applicable to refuting that the coaching from the two teams is THE difference. If it was, then the Bills would be getting blown out by KC. They are not.

In FACT, the Bills have BEATEN KC THREE TIMES IN A ROW, IN KC in the regular season. If "better coaching" was THE factor, that would not have happened.


It's all about decisions made in the most crucial times in the BIGGEST games...playoff time.. That is NOT about coaching. Yes, the 2021 playoff loss Josh DID perform at an extremely high level in the clutch moment....and the coaching at 13 seconds and beyond left a lot to be desired. Josh did NOT do so in the last loss to KC. That's on JOSH, not the coaches.

BUT, notice the NEXT GAME for KC, the OT AFCC game vs Cincy, WHY DID KC LOSE?!?!?!? Mahomes made crappy decisions at critical times....first at the end of the first half when he had a brain fart and prevented KC from scoring any points when they were on the Cincy ONE YARD LINE!!!

Then, in OT, Mahomes made THREE TERRIBLE PASSES (go back and watch the ALL-22 film....I have, several times....Mahomes sucked in OT) The last one reminded me of too many of the BAD decisions that Josh makes way to often resulting in a easy INT.

It's glaringly obvious. Mahomes makes noticeably FEWER mistakes at the crucial times than Josh does. It's a FACT. Plus Mahoems makes exponentially more clutch plays at the most crucial times. That is ALSO a FACT.


This fact tells it all. (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5085277&viewfull=1#post5085277)...

“Since 2001, there have been 125 drives in the NFL postseason where it was at least the fourth quarter, there was under a minute left to play, and the team on offense trailed by seven points or fewer at the start. These are your standard clutch moments for a football team, the do-or-die drives that win and lose critical games.

“Out of those 125 drives, only 40 percent of them saw the team on offense pull off the magic trick and get the points they needed. Some quarterbacks are pretty good at it, such as Tom Brady, who went 5-for-11 (46%), or Drew Brees, who went 3-for-6 (50%). Only Patrick Mahomes, though, 7-for-7, or perfect, in those dire situations.”


Mahomes went 8-8 and was flawless for the winning drive.....Josh Allen not even close to flawless in the last drive vs KC.

Mahomes - 8/8 42 yards
Mahomes - 2 runs for 27 yards
Pacheco - 3 runs for 6 yards


Last drive for Bills VS KC

Allen - 6/11 for 42 yards
Allen - 2 runs for 10 yards - 1 fumble (recovered by Buffalo)
Cook - 2 runs - 1 yard

The difference is far greater than "slight." Reid has 20 years of HC'ing on McD. He's also a far better OC than what the Bills have had under McD. And again, Spags proved himself with the way his defense shut down the Cheats in 2007. Again no one would take the Bills' coaches over them. No one. And again, it's not like the Chefs have blown out the Bills in any game save for the 2020 playoffs. They were a missed easy FG away from tying the game against the Chefs, despite having a MASH unit on defense much of the game.

[sahlensguy]

What do you mean "so?" Hardman is a JAG and was wide ****ing open on that play. You think that's because he's such a great player/Mahomes?

And the Bills for all their "ball control" offense scored just 7 points in the 2nd half. Brady got outcoached by a guy who shut down the greatest offense in NFL history in the 2007 Cheats and then did it again in 2011. This is so obvious it doesn't even need to be said.


So? Shakir AND Diggs were open on the play after the 2 minute warning. You are not backing up your claim of superior coaching with evidence.

And just to recap...Davis was out, Diggs was supposedly checked out and our D was riddled with injuries. Did you really expect a shoot out? We played it perfectly, controlling the clock with great position to pull it out in the end...until the ball control plan was abandoned after the time out, for no good reason.

[Goobylal]

So? Shakir AND Diggs were open on the play after the 2 minute warning. You are not backing up your claim of superior coaching with evidence.

And just to recap...Davis was out, Diggs was supposedly checked out and our D was riddled with injuries. Did you really expect a shoot out? We played it perfectly, controlling the clock with great position to pull it out in the end...until the ball control plan was abandoned after the time out, for no good reason.

The point is there's a lot of stuff that happens prior to the last 2 minutes. Again they scored just 7 points in the 2nd half.

[sahlensguy]

The point is there's a lot of stuff that happens prior to the last 2 minutes. Again they scored just 7 points in the 2nd half.

Yes. That's my point too. The game plan work great in my opinion for 58 minutes. Set us up in a good position to get the win.

So my question to you what would mahomes' coaches have done differently if they were on the bills in those first 58 minutes to yield a different result?

Again Davis was out and Diggs was checked out apparently.

[Goobylal]

Yes. That's my point too. The game plan work great in my opinion for 58 minutes. Set us up in a good position to get the win.

So my question to you what would mahomes' coaches have done differently if they were on the bills in those first 58 minutes to yield a different result?

Again Davis was out and Diggs was checked out apparently.

Again, just 7 points in the 2nd half isn't setting the team up to win. Doing little in the 2nd half is what cost them dearly.

And again, I'll point to the game-winning play in the SB. That was all scheme. I don't think Mahomes even had to look anywhere else.

Yes the Bills were injured and the Chefs were almost completely healthy. That played a major role as well. And is a common theme come playoff time.

[sahlensguy]

Again, just 7 points in the 2nd half isn't setting the team up to win. Doing little in the 2nd half is what cost them dearly.

And again, I'll point to the game-winning play in the SB. That was all scheme. I don't think Mahomes even had to look anywhere else.

Yes the Bills were injured and the Chefs were almost completely healthy. That played a major role as well. And is a common theme come playoff time.

I think the ball control did set us up good at the end though. My question still remains what would mahomes' coaches have done differently if they were coaching the bills?

[Typ0]

I think the ball control did set us up good at the end though. My question still remains what would mahomes' coaches have done differently if they were coaching the bills?

I think the coaches would have coached Allen differently right from the beginning ... and the results would have been different. Our system begs Uber Allen to show up and play hero ball all the time. Reid would not put Josh Allen out there alone the way McDermott has.

[sahlensguy]

I think the coaches would have coached Allen differently right from the beginning ... and the results would have been different. Our system begs Uber Allen to show up and play hero ball all the time. Reid would not put Josh Allen out there alone the way McDermott has.

I don't know if your argument holds water in 13 seconds or in this game. 58 minutes of mostly ball control doesn't sound like hero ball and in 13 seconds, we needed Allen to play perhaps the greatestgame ever by a Bills qb, and he did.

[Goobylal]

I think the ball control did set us up good at the end though. My question still remains what would mahomes' coaches have done differently if they were coaching the bills?

So you're saying the quality of coaches is exactly the same and they would coach exactly the same? OK. There's nothing else to discuss then.

[sahlensguy]

So you're saying the quality of coaches is exactly the same and they would coach exactly the same? OK. There's nothing else to discuss then.

You said


.Yeah he is. Again what Mahomes has is better coaching. No one would dispute this.

Now if the Bills were getting blown out by the Chefs instead of barely losing to them, you'd have a point. But they aren't so you don't.

What I'm saying is that you have not supported this claim.

[Goobylal]

You said

What I'm saying is that you have not supported this claim.

I don't think I have to support the claim that Reid and Spagnuolo are far better coaches than Brady/Dorsey/Daboll and McD. Everyone knows it.

[sahlensguy]

I don't think I have to support the claim that Reid and Spagnuolo are far better coaches than Brady/Dorsey/Daboll and McD. Everyone knows it.

All I wanted to know was what you thought that those coaches would do differently in the 13 seconds and the 58 minute games that would have yielded different results. If they are so much better, the answer should be easy.

[notacon]

The difference is far greater than "slight." Reid has 20 years of HC'ing on McD. He's also a far better OC than what the Bills have had under McD. And again, Spags proved himself with the way his defense shut down the Cheats in 2007. Again no one would take the Bills' coaches over them. No one. And again, it's not like the Chefs have blown out the Bills in any game save for the 2020 playoffs. They were a missed easy FG away from tying the game against the Chefs, despite having a MASH unit on defense much of the game.

Baloney.


The "slight" I was speaking to was the difference between QB's, Allen and Mahomes. With Mahomes CLEARLY (slightly) better at the most crucial times in playoff games....in particular comparing the Bills loss to KC this year and KC's win in OT at the SB.

"Reid has 20 years of HC'ing on McD." and Reid NOT winning a SB (after being a HC for 21 years UNTIL he had Mahomes) is the point.

All the other observations you have made IGNORE the FACT That the Bills have beaten KC THREE TIMES IN A ROW, in KC, during the regular season.

The Bills were in PRIME POSITION to BEAT KC in the playoffs, until Josh crumbled in the last two minutes making bad decisions that Mahomes hardly ever makes (when he does, like the AFCC game vs Cincy, KC loses)...and DID NOT make in the last drive of the SB.

The fact that the Bills "were a missed easy FG away from tying the game against the Chefs, despite having a MASH unit on defense much of the game." proves that Reid was NOT the difference.

Josh makes better decision in the last two minutes, it would be very likely the Bills would have the Lombardi instead of KC.

THAT'S THE POINT!!!!

[Goobylal]

All I wanted to know was what you thought that those coaches would do differently in the 13 seconds and the 58 minute games that would have yielded different results. If they are so much better, the answer should be easy.

I'm not an X's and O's guy. Someone else could probably tell you specifically what they would have done differently. Again what I do know, and what everyone else would agree with, is they have better coaches.

[Goobylal]

Baloney.


The "slight" I was speaking to was the difference between QB's, Allen and Mahomes. With Mahomes CLEARLY (slightly) better at the most crucial times in playoff games....in particular comparing the Bills loss to KC this year and KC's win in OT at the SB.

"Reid has 20 years of HC'ing on McD." and Reid NOT winning a SB (after being a HC for 21 years UNTIL he had Mahomes) is the point.

All the other observations you have made IGNORE the FACT That the Bills have beaten KC THREE TIMES IN A ROW, in KC, during the regular season.

The Bills were in PRIME POSITION to BEAT KC in the playoffs, until Josh crumbled in the last two minutes making bad decisions that Mahomes hardly ever makes (when he does, like the AFCC game vs Cincy, KC loses)...and DID NOT make in the last drive of the SB.

The fact that the Bills "were a missed easy FG away from tying the game against the Chefs, despite having a MASH unit on defense much of the game." proves that Reid was NOT the difference.

Josh makes better decision in the last two minutes, it would be very likely the Bills would have the Lombardi instead of KC.

THAT'S THE POINT!!!!

Yeah and Josh's receivers, RB's, TE's and OL were flawless in the game, right? Please.

Even you could have thrown that game-winning TD pass in the SB, Hardman was that wide open.

And yeah, Reid never won a SB before because he didn't have a QB as good as Mahomes. Or Allen.

[notacon]

Yeah and Josh's receivers, RB's, TE's and OL were flawless in the game, right? Please.

Even you could have thrown that game-winning TD pass in the SB, Hardman was that wide open.

And yeah, Reid never won a SB before because he didn't have a QB as good as Mahomes. Or Allen.

Who said that "Josh's receivers, RB's, TE's and OL were flawless in the game"?!?!?! NO ONE!!!!!!


Even you could have thrown that 2nd down pass with 2 min left in the game to Diggs who was that wide open. Which would have been SMART GAME MANAGEMENT as it would have probably resulted in a first down (or set up 3rd and very short)....and KC would have to burn timeouts. Making the winning TD that much easier...leaving hardly any time on the clock (or at the very least, gaining extra yards that would have made the tying FG much easier).

There would have been (with a go ahead TD) little chance of the 13 second situation, because KC would have NO time outs, and 75 yards to score a TD....not having to gain about 35 yards for a FG.

It's irrelevant what happened the previous 58 minutes. Josh had the ball, with 2 min left, on KC's TWENTY SIX YARD LINE, with two time outs. Instead of rising to the occasion, like we have seen the greats do time after time after time....two dumb passes (stopping the clock) ZERO yards gained......and even if Bass made the tying FG, KC would have had the ball with 1:43 left, two time outs, and the need to gain only about 35 yards for the wining FG.


Who in the their right mind doubts that Mahomes would have done that with relative ease.


Josh screwed the pooch. You want to keep your Josh homerism glasses on, that's your business. I'm not buying it. Neither is Kurt Warner (scroll to "Requiem for the Bills) (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/fmia/news/fmia-conference-championships-brock-purdy-delivers-again-to-meet-mahomes-in-super-bowl).

Back to KC's SB winning drive. It's not about Hardman being wide open for the winning TD it's about Mahomes performance in the last drive as I already detailed above (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5085880&viewfull=1#post5085880)....

Mahomes went 8-8 and was flawless for the winning drive.....Josh Allen not even close to flawless in the last drive vs KC.

Mahomes - 8/8 42 yards
Mahomes - 2 runs for 27 yards
Pacheco - 3 runs for 6 yards


Last drive for Bills VS KC

Allen - 6/11 for 42 yards
Allen - 2 runs for 10 yards - 1 fumble (recovered by Buffalo)
Cook - 2 runs - 1 yard

[Goobylal]

Who said that "Josh's receivers, RB's, TE's and OL were flawless in the game"?!?!?! NO ONE!!!!!!


Even you could have thrown that 2nd down pass with 2 min left in the game to Diggs who was that wide open. Which would have been SMART GAME MANAGEMENT as it would have probably resulted in a first down (or set up 3rd and very short)....and KC would have to burn timeouts. Making the winning TD that much easier...leaving hardly any time on the clock (or at the very least, gaining extra yards that would have made the tying FG much easier).

There would have been (with a go ahead TD) little chance of the 13 second situation, because KC would have NO time outs, and 75 yards to score a TD....not having to gain about 35 yards for a FG.

It's irrelevant what happened the previous 58 minutes. Josh had the ball, with 2 min left, on KC's TWENTY SIX YARD LINE, with two time outs. Instead of rising to the occasion, like we have seen the greats do time after time after time....two dumb passes (stopping the clock) ZERO yards gained......and even if Bass made the tying FG, KC would have had the ball with 1:43 left, two time outs, and the need to gain only about 35 yards for the wining FG.


Who in the their right mind doubts that Mahomes would have done that with relative ease.


Josh screwed the pooch. You want to keep your Josh homerism glasses on, that's your business. I'm not buying it. Neither is Kurt Warner (scroll to "Requiem for the Bills) (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/fmia/news/fmia-conference-championships-brock-purdy-delivers-again-to-meet-mahomes-in-super-bowl).

Back to KC's SB winning drive. It's not about Hardman being wide open for the winning TD it's about Mahomes performance in the last drive as I already detailed above (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5085880&viewfull=1#post5085880)....

Mahomes went 8-8 and was flawless for the winning drive.....Josh Allen not even close to flawless in the last drive vs KC.

Mahomes - 8/8 42 yards
Mahomes - 2 runs for 27 yards
Pacheco - 3 runs for 6 yards


Last drive for Bills VS KC

Allen - 6/11 for 42 yards
Allen - 2 runs for 10 yards - 1 fumble (recovered by Buffalo)
Cook - 2 runs - 1 yard

Every throw on that drive was to a guy who was wide open because of the scheme/play-calling. What are you not getting here?

Again this was Reid against McD and Brady versus Spagnuolo, which was already a huge advantages for the Chefs in terms of HC'ing and coordinating talent and experience alone. Then you add-in the Bills' defense being depleted in the back 7 against a passing team and you get what happened. And that's why McD is on a short leash going forward since we can't waste Josh's best years.

[notacon]

Every throw on that drive was to a guy who was wide open because of the scheme/play-calling. What are you not getting here?

Again this was Reid against McD and Brady versus Spagnuolo, which was already a huge advantages for the Chefs in terms of HC'ing and coordinating talent and experience alone. Then you add-in the Bills' defense being depleted in the back 7 against a passing team and you get what happened. And that's why McD is on a short leash going forward since we can't waste Josh's best years.

Keep on ignoring the elephant in the room if it makes you feel better. What are YOU "not getting here"????

Diggs was WIDE OPEN on the 2nd and 9 play from KC's 26 yard line which was the EASY LAY UP, that would have put KC in the worst position....forcing them to use their time outs...and the Bills in a PERFECT situation to run down the clock and either score the winning TD, with hardly any time left, or in a position to kick an easy tying FG with hardly any time left on the clock.

SITUATIONAL FOOTBALL...that Josh, in his sixth year should have down pat by now. He doesn't.


It is OBVIOUS to anyone without Josh homerism glasses that Josh simply did not rise to the occasion after the 2 min mark of the KC game, and Mahomes almost always does.


Josh Allen had the game within grasp....and ****ed it up. Again, what are YOU not getting here?????

[Goobylal]

Keep on ignoring the elephant in the room if it makes you feel better. What are YOU "not getting here"????

Diggs was WIDE OPEN on the 2nd and 9 play from KC's 26 yard line which was the EASY LAY UP, that would have put KC in the worst position....forcing them to use their time outs...and the Bills in a PERFECT situation to run down the clock and either score the winning TD, with hardly any time left, or in a position to kick an easy tying FG with hardly any time left on the clock.

SITUATIONAL FOOTBALL...that Josh, in his sixth year should have down pat by now. He doesn't.


It is OBVIOUS to anyone without Josh homerism glasses that Josh simply did not rise to the occasion after the 2 min mark of the KC game, and Mahomes almost always does.


Josh Allen had the game within grasp....and ****ed it up. Again, what are YOU not getting here?????

Diggs was wide open...for a TD? WRONG!

Josh made the right read on that play but misfired because Dawkins got pushed-into him by Chris Jones.

The Bills should have been looking to milk clock at that point. Who is that on?

And as you showed, Cook had 2 runs for 1 yard. Is that on Josh?

How about Bass missing an easy FG to tie the game? That on Josh as well?

What about earlier in the drive when Josh rushed and stood still because his forward progress was stopped but the Chefs pushed him back and Pennel landed on top of him, which should have been RTP?

Again no one would take the Bills' coaches over the Chefs'. No one. And it shouldn't come down to one play where, again, mistakes were made by several people.

[notacon]

Diggs was wide open...for a TD? WRONG!

Josh made the right read on that play but misfired because Dawkins got pushed-into him by Chris Jones.

The Bills should have been looking to milk clock at that point. Who is that on?

And as you showed, Cook had 2 runs for 1 yard. Is that on Josh?

How about Bass missing an easy FG to tie the game? That on Josh as well?

What about earlier in the drive when Josh rushed and stood still because his forward progress was stopped but the Chefs pushed him back and Pennel landed on top of him, which should have been RTP?

Again no one would take the Bills' coaches over the Chefs'. No one. And it shouldn't come down to one play where, again, mistakes were made by several people.
Jesus. Now you are just pissing me off.

NO ONE SAID that "Diggs was wide open for a TD". NO ONE!!!!!

DO I REALLY have to repeat myself AGAIN?!?!?!?

No, Josh did NOT make "the right read", he made a TERRIBLE DECISION!!!!!! JOSH MAKES THE DECISION ON WHERE TO THROW THE BALL. PERIOD!!!!! It's ON HIM!!!!!

The SMART PLAY was to throw to a WIDE OPEN DIGGS for either the first down, OR, setting up for 3rd down and short. Which would FORCE KC TO USE THEIR TIME OUTS!!!!!

Even if Josh makes that TD pass...SO WHAT?!?!?!

The Chiefs would have gotten the ball after a kickoff on their 25 yard line with (about ) 1:55 left with TWO TIME OUTS.

It would be almost inevitable that Mahomes would lead them for the winning TD....leaving no time on the clock.

Keep your Josh homerism glasses on if you like. It's dumb.

[Goobylal]

Jesus. Now you are just pissing me off.

NO ONE SAID that "Diggs was wide open for a TD". NO ONE!!!!!

DO I REALLY have to repeat myself AGAIN?!?!?!?

No, Josh did NOT make "the right read", he made a TERRIBLE DECISION!!!!!! JOSH MAKES THE DECISION ON WHERE TO THROW THE BALL. PERIOD!!!!! It's ON HIM!!!!!

The SMART PLAY was to throw to a WIDE OPEN DIGGS for either the first down, OR, setting up for 3rd down and short. Which would FORCE KC TO USE THEIR TIME OUTS!!!!!

Even if Josh makes that TD pass...SO WHAT?!?!?!

The Chiefs would have gotten the ball after a kickoff on their 25 yard line with (about ) 1:55 left with TWO TIME OUTS.

It would be almost inevitable that Mahomes would lead them for the winning TD....leaving no time on the clock.

Keep your Josh homerism glasses on if you like. It's dumb.

Oh no, you're pissed off. Who TF are you and who TF cares?

Josh made the right read. Don't listen to Romo who talks out of his ass and couldn't win a playoff game to save his career. If Diggs had been wide open for a TD, you'd have a point, but you don't.

The Bills came into the game under-manned and the Chefs came in 100% healthy. And still the Bills should have tied it at the end if not for Bass missing an easy FG. And that's ignoring how Reid and Spags out-coached Brady and McD for most of the game.

Go take your Mahomes fantasies elsewhere as Reid could easily win SBs with Josh. To say otherwise is what's dumb.

[sahlensguy]

Oh no, you're pissed off. Who TF are you and who TF cares?

Josh made the right read. Don't listen to Romo who talks out of his ass and couldn't win a playoff game to save his career. If Diggs had been wide open for a TD, you'd have a point, but you don't.

The Bills came into the game under-manned and the Chefs came in 100% healthy. And still the Bills should have tied it at the end if not for Bass missing an easy FG. And that's ignoring how Reid and Spags out-coached Brady and McD for most of the game.

Go take your Mahomes fantasies elsewhere as Reid could easily win SBs with Josh. To say otherwise is what's dumb.

You'll never get anywhere with those who think Josh made the wrong read.

[Goobylal]

You'll never get anywhere with those who think Josh made the wrong read.

Yup. What they're actually saying is that Josh can't win a SB even with the best coaches in the league and a healthy team, neither of which he has (in the playoffs, that is).

[sahlensguy]

Yup. What they're actually saying is that Josh can't win a SB even with the best coaches in the league and a healthy team, neither of which he has (in the playoffs, that is).

Well when you are committed 100% that Josh made the right read, I don't think you're the best one to put words in the mouths of your detractors.

[Goobylal]

Well when you are committed 100% that Josh made the right read, I don't think you're the best one to put words in the mouths of your detractors.

I don't care what my detractors think.

[sahlensguy]

I don't care what my detractors think.

How are they going to care what you think?

[notacon]

Oh no, you're pissed off. Who TF are you and who TF cares?

Josh made the right read. Don't listen to Romo who talks out of his ass and couldn't win a playoff game to save his career. If Diggs had been wide open for a TD, you'd have a point, but you don't.

The Bills came into the game under-manned and the Chefs came in 100% healthy. And still the Bills should have tied it at the end if not for Bass missing an easy FG. And that's ignoring how Reid and Spags out-coached Brady and McD for most of the game.

Go take your Mahomes fantasies elsewhere as Reid could easily win SBs with Josh. To say otherwise is what's dumb.

Baloney.

I'm "pissed off" because you are LYING about what I wrote....TWICE!!!! Don't do that!!!

First, I (nor anyone else) even suggested, much less said that "Diggs was wide open...for a TD" You pulled that lie that right out of your ass.

Plus, I never mentioned Tony Romo or one word that he said. I DID cite Kurt Warner's astute and spot on observations (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/fmia/news/fmia-conference-championships-brock-purdy-delivers-again-to-meet-mahomes-in-super-bowl). Yeah, the undrafted free agent QB, who not only HAS WON playoff games, his playoff record is 9-4 with three NFC Championships (never lost a NFCC game), one Super Bowl win, one Super Bowl MVP and two NFL MVP's. Hie led the Rams to a LOMBARDI TROPHY his FIRST YEAR as starting QB in the NFL.

Yeah, Kurt Warner knows what he is talking about from first hand experience. You have no ****ing clue.

The reality if the reality, no matter if you can't take off your Josh homerism glasses to see them.

[notacon]

You'll never get anywhere with those who think Josh made the wrong read.
Josh made the WRONG DECISION based on the GAME SITUATION.

[Goobylal]

Baloney.

I'm "pissed off" because you are LYING about what I wrote....TWICE!!!! Don't do that!!!

First, I (nor anyone else) even suggested, much less said that "Diggs was wide open...for a TD" You pulled that lie that right out of your ass.

Plus, I never mentioned Tony Romo or one word that he said. I DID cite Kurt Warner's astute and spot on observations (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/fmia/news/fmia-conference-championships-brock-purdy-delivers-again-to-meet-mahomes-in-super-bowl). Yeah, the undrafted free agent QB, who not only HAS WON playoff games, his playoff record is 9-4 with three NFC Championships (never lost a NFCC game), one Super Bowl win, one Super Bowl MVP and two NFL MVP's. Hie led the Rams to a LOMBARDI TROPHY his FIRST YEAR as starting QB in the NFL.

Yeah, Kurt Warner knows what he is talking about from first hand experience. You have no ****ing clue.

The reality if the reality, no matter if you can't take off your Josh homerism glasses to see them.

So your official position is that Josh can never win a SB, is that it? Or that the Chefs win SBs solely because of Mahomes? If so, you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Typ0]

Josh made the WRONG DECISION based on the GAME SITUATION.

And the coach says that is lack of execution. I am saying it is lack of information and practice about what to do in game situations. It is about everyone being on the same page about what the TEAM is doing. Our guys aren't. It goes back to times where the only people left in this organization are McDermott, Beane & Pegula. It's not the players that fail to prepare themselves.

[notacon]

So your official position is that Josh can never win a SB, is that it? Or that the Chefs win SBs solely because of Mahomes? If so, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Jesus. This is the THIRD TIME you are lying about what I have written.....THIS is (some) of what I have said....NOT the bullcrap you have pulled out of your butt.






I am not saying that a good head coach is not necessary to win a SB. But if I were to dole out the degree of importance, my opinion for SB success is 75% QB...25% coach.

Josh Allen has at least 10 more years to prove that he is one of those QB's and I predict he WILL win multiple Super Bowls with the Bills and McD as HC. And JOSH will be the reason why.



Mahomes>Allen. By just enough. That's the difference.



I did not say that (in response to what Novacane said (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5084151&viewfull=1#post5084151) "If you don't think Reid is a better coach than Mcd than you're only the 2nd person in the world who thinks that. McD's wife is the first.". Why do you feel the need to misrepresent (read: lie) about what I wrote????? Don't do that.

What I AM saying is that Reid is not THE difference....not even close.

It's Mahomes.

I have proven that without any doubt whatsoever (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5083520&viewfull=1#post5083520).



Here is another mind boggling fact that illustrates THE difference is Patrick Mahomes from Go Long's Mailbag Column (https://www.golongtd.com/p/mailbag-part-i-beanes-drafts-tom?utm_campaign=email-post&r=7jk34&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email)....


This stat from fellow Substacker Neil Paine boggles the brain and helps put Mahomes’ current greatness into proper perspective.

Paine writes:

“Since 2001, there have been 125 drives in the NFL postseason where it was at least the fourth quarter, there was under a minute left to play, and the team on offense trailed by seven points or fewer at the start. These are your standard clutch moments for a football team, the do-or-die drives that win and lose critical games.

“Out of those 125 drives, only 40 percent of them saw the team on offense pull off the magic trick and get the points they needed. Some quarterbacks are pretty good at it, such as Tom Brady, who went 5-for-11 (46%), or Drew Brees, who went 3-for-6 (50%). Only Patrick Mahomes, though, 7-for-7, or perfect, in those dire situations.”


NOPE!!!! (in response to Oaf saying (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5085309&viewfull=1#post5085309) "Josh Allen is plenty good enough to beat KC - we've seen it three regular seasons in a row. KC was the better team in BUF last month, so they won....."

Buffalo was the better team than KC "last month", but Mahomes was the better QB in the clutch than Josh. It's been that way since both QB's came into the league.


That does not mean that Josh will not rise to the occasion in the future.


:rofl: Nope.

Josh is NOT "just as good as Mahomes". What lame homerism.

Does not mean that Josh cannot get better and reduce the gap between him and Mahomes. Once he learns to make better decisions at the most crucial moments in the playoffs, he will win some SB's.

Josh is "just as good" as Joe Burrow....but neither of them is on the level of Mahomes.

Even then, at the end of each of their careers, there is NO DOUBT that Patrick Mahomes will be widely considered (like he is accurately today considered the head and shoulders best QB in the NFL) the better QB. Just like Tom Brady is considered the better QB than Peyton Manning.


Baloney. (in response to your dishonest suggestion (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5085900&viewfull=1#post5085900) (that means FOUR times you have lied about what I wrote) that "The difference is far greater than "slight." Reid has 20 years of HC'ing on McD."


The "slight" I was speaking to was the difference between QB's, Allen and Mahomes. With Mahomes CLEARLY (slightly) better at the most crucial times in playoff games....in particular comparing the Bills loss to KC this year and KC's win in OT at the SB.

"Reid has 20 years of HC'ing on McD." and Reid NOT winning a SB (after being a HC for 21 years UNTIL he had Mahomes) is the point.

All the other observations you have made IGNORE the FACT That the Bills have beaten KC THREE TIMES IN A ROW, in KC, during the regular season.

The Bills were in PRIME POSITION to BEAT KC in the playoffs, until Josh crumbled in the last two minutes making bad decisions that Mahomes hardly ever makes (when he does, like the AFCC game vs Cincy, KC loses)...and DID NOT make in the last drive of the SB.

The fact that the Bills "were a missed easy FG away from tying the game against the Chefs, despite having a MASH unit on defense much of the game." proves that Reid was NOT the difference.

Josh makes better decision in the last two minutes, it would be very likely the Bills would have the Lombardi instead of KC.

THAT'S THE POINT!!!!

The reality is NOT that anyone (except Opi (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/263799-Drought-Era-Football?p=5042538&viewfull=1#post5042538)) that "Josh can never win a Super Bowl" (at least as Opi's sourpuss prediciton that he will never do so with the Bills) it's that Josh is almost there and in this KC game FAILED to RISE TO THE OCCASSION, like Mahomes deos over and over and over again in the msot critcal moments.

Kurt Warner (and Peter KIng) has got it SPOT ON when they say (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/fmia/news/fmia-conference-championships-brock-purdy-delivers-again-to-meet-mahomes-in-super-bowl)....



Allen, on this drive (last of the game for Buffalo), had flipped and thrown and side-armed completions of 7, 4, 8, 10, 6 and 7 yards. And needing a first down here, he went gunslinger. I just don’t know why. Kurt Warner, one who would know, tried to explain it a few days after the game.
“Sometimes,” Warner said, “you talk yourself into a play and say, ‘I’m gonna make this play, and this is the throw that’ll send us to the championship game,’ instead of saying, ‘I’m gonna let the defense dictate where I throw the ball.’ As a quarterback, you have to have the ability to balance those things.”

I thought Warner put it best on Allen in this game, and Allen as a player. He said, “It’s impossible to play perfect games, and Josh played an incredible game—until the end. In the end, he took some chances that wouldn’t have been what I would have done. But he chose to make those throws, and if you choose those throws, you’ve got to make ‘em. That’s part of being great. Brady, Montana, Mahomes—they have careers of making the plays in the absolute crucial times of the game. Now they’re on the Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks.”

Allen is just six years into his career. He’s got much of his NFL life in front of him. He’s a smart guy. He’s one of the most talented quarterbacks ever to play in the NFL. He’s going to have plenty of chances to go deep into the playoffs, and to win a Super Bowl. But this is a crucial lesson he must learn, or he may never hold the Lombardi Trophy.

<style>@font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1107305727 0 0 415 0;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073732485 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1593833729 1073750107 16 0 415 0;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:#222222;}p {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.5pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.5pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Verdana; color:#222222; mso-font-kerning:0pt; mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}</style>


This is NOT rocket science. It's COLD HARD REALITY!!!!

Like I said in this thread (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265007-Requiem-for-the-Bills-When-will-Josh-Learn)....



I'm not "Pinning the loss on one player"....quite the opposite.

The point is that Josh must RISE TO THE OCCASION, and enter that rarefied level of elite championship caliber moment. He HAD that opportunity this game and flubbed it.

Does not mean I "blame" him for the LOSS....I am frustrated for HIM because he he has not learned (yet) the lessons that Kurt Warner articulated impeccably.

Yes, Josh is undoubtedly "a top 3 QB in this league". BUT, as Kurt observed (and he KNOWS from experience)...

“It’s impossible to play perfect games, and Josh played an incredible game—until the end. In the end, he took some chances that wouldn’t have been what I would have done. But he chose to make those throws, and if you choose those throws, you’ve got to make ‘em. That’s part of being great. Brady, Montana, Mahomes—they have careers of making the plays in the absolute crucial times of the game. Now they’re on the Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks.”


Josh has ALL the ability to be on the "Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks". And I believe, eventually, he will.


Not only do I believe that Josh CAN learn from his mistakes but he ABSOLUTELY WILL and is DESTINED to win MULTIPLE SUPER BOWLS WITH THE BUFFALO BILLS!!!

[Goobylal]

Not only do I believe that Josh CAN learn from his mistakes but he ABSOLUTELY WILL and is DESTINED to win MULTIPLE SUPER BOWLS WITH THE BUFFALO BILLS!!!

So what you're saying is that Josh can't win a SB at this time and that he is the sole reason the Bills haven't gone to, much less won, a SB yet. Because the Bills' coaching staff is as good as KCs and they've been just as healthy in the playoffs.

[sahlensguy]

So what you're saying is that Josh can't win a SB at this time and that he is the sole reason the Bills haven't gone to, much less won, a SB yet. Because the Bills' coaching staff is as good as KCs and they've been just as healthy in the playoffs.

Wow, man. Talk about putting words in the mouth of someone who disagrees with you.

[notacon]

So what you're saying is that Josh can't win a SB at this time and that he is the sole reason the Bills haven't gone to, much less won, a SB yet. Because the Bills' coaching staff is as good as KCs and they've been just as healthy in the playoffs.
What I am saying is that Josh Allen has NOT shown he can get to, much less win a SB at this time. That is a FACT.

I am NOT saying that he is the "sole reason the Bills haven't gone to, much less won, a SB yet".

What I AM saying is that THIS YEAR, Josh had the opportunity in the palm of his capable hands to step up and win the game vs KC. He has already shown that he can do that....as he did in 2021.


THIS YEAR, Josh FAILED to rise to the occasion, like Mahomes almost always seems to.

The other undeniable fact is that Patrick Mahomes is THE difference between the Bills and KC and why KC has won three SB's.

Mahomes is simply a better QB than Josh, and has been since 2018 when they both began their stating careers in the NFL. I REJECT the idea that coaching staffs have much to do with the the FACT that Mahomes is the best QB in the NFL and has been either the best or second best since 2018.

Every year since 2014 (https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/11156302/nfl-anonymous-league-insiders-rank-32-starting-quarterbacks-tiers), Mike Sando (first with ESPN and then with The Athletic) has brought together between 26 (2014 (https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/11156302/nfl-anonymous-league-insiders-rank-32-starting-quarterbacks-tiers)), 35 (2015 (https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/2015-nfl-qb-tier-rankings/story?id=32652348)), 42 (2016 (https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/2016-nfl-qb-tier-rankings/story?id=41230629)) 50 (2017 (https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/20400339/2017-nfl-qb-tier-rankings-new-england-patriots-tom-brady-green-bay-packers-aaron-rodgers), 2018 (https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/24119488/2018-nfl-qb-tier-rankings-best-worst-quarterbacks-voted-league-execs)) 54 (2019 (https://theathletic.com/1082093/2019/07/22/2019-nfl-quarterback-tiers-rankings/)), 50 (2020 (https://theathletic.com/1945894/2020/07/27/2020-quarterback-tiers-50-coaches-and-evaluators-rank-the-nfl-starters/), 2021 (https://theathletic.com/2727336/2021/07/28/2021-nfl-quarterback-tiers-50-coaches-and-evaluators-rank-the-leagues-starters/), 2022 (https://theathletic.com/3443022/2022/07/25/nfl-best-quarterbacks-tiers/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=4658383) & 2023 (https://theathletic.com/4723809/2023/07/31/nfl-quarterback-tiers-rankings-2023/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=7356484)) "NFL insiders" including current NFL coaches, GM's, coordinators, talent evaluators and QB coaches that are "granted anonymity to share unvarnished evaluations" to place each starting QB into "Tiers".

These evaluations are done PURELY on the traits each QB shows. These are published in the summer or each year so 2023 Tiers was based on 2022 observations, 2022 is based on 2021 etc.

The QB's placed into four or five Tiers (depending on year, most had four Tiers some had five....most years there were not any starting QB's bad enough to be in Tier 5). Each NFL professional votes fore each QB into a Tier.

Quarterbacks were then ranked by average vote and placed into tiers based on vote distribution. They are ranked from #1, #2, etc based on this average.

Each Tier is defined as:

Tier 1 - A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game.

Tier 2 - A Tier 2 quarterback can carry his team sometimes but not as consistently. He can handle pure passing situations in doses and/or possesses other dimensions that are special enough to elevate him above Tier 3. He has a hole or two in his game.

Tier 3 - A Tier 3 quarterback is a legitimate starter but needs a heavier running game and/or defensive component to win. A lower-volume dropback passing offense suits him best.

Tier 4 - A Tier 4 quarterback could be an unproven player (not enough information for voters to classify) or a veteran who ideally would not start all 17 games.

Tier 5 (when there is any) - A Tier 5 quarterback is best suited as a backup.

There have been only two QB’s that have been in Tier 1 since 2019 (based on 2018 performance….the year that both Mahomes and Allen became starters for each team)

Patrick Mahomes
Aaron Rodgers

Rodgers is the ONLY QB voted into Tier 1 in every of the 10 years this has been done. No, Tom Brady was NOT in Tier 1 every year he was playing while this has been published.

Brady was relegated to Tier 2 in 2020 (based on 2019 season) when he got more Tier 2 votes (28( than Tier 1 (22). So these evaluations are not based on reputation.

The 2023 had Mahomes getting ALL 50 votes placing him in Tier 1.
2022 he got 49 Tier 1 votes and one Tier 2.
2021 he got ALL 50 votes for Tier 1.
2020 he got ALL 50 votes for Tier 1.
2019 he got 48 votes for Tier 1 and 7 votes for Tier 2.

So, in all the FIVE season Patrick Mahomes was the starting QB for KC, he got 247 votes out of a possible 255 for Tier 1. A whopping 96.8%.

Josh Allen on the other hand, took three years to climb into Tier 1 territory.

2023 – JA got 44 Tier 1 votes and 6 Tier 2.
2022 – JA’s first year obtaining Tier 1 status his voting average was 1.22 for Tier 1 (they do not give vote totals every year)
2021 – JA got 20 Tier 1 votes and 30 Tier 2. He was deemed a “Tier 2” that year.
2020 – JA got 4 Tier 2 votes, 40 Tier 3 and 6 Tier 4. He was deemed a “Tier 3” QB.
2019 – JA received 18 Tier 3 votes, 36 Tier 4 and 1 Tier 5. He was deemed a “Tier 4” QB.

So, NFL professionals with all their expertise and experience, have made it crystal clear that Mahomes has been an ELITE TIER 1 QB since the day he became starter.

Josh Allen has steadily improved and now is consider a Tier 1 QB, but STILL behind Mahomes.

THAT REALITY IS WHAT is what I am saying. It is undeniable and indisputable.

[Goobylal]

What I am saying is that Josh Allen has NOT shown he can get to, much less win a SB at this time. That is a FACT.

I am NOT saying that he is the "sole reason the Bills haven't gone to, much less won, a SB yet".

What I AM saying is that THIS YEAR, Josh had the opportunity in the palm of his capable hands to step up and win the game vs KC. He has already shown that he can do that....as he did in 2021.


THIS YEAR, Josh FAILED to rise to the occasion, like Mahomes almost always seems to.

The other undeniable fact is that Patrick Mahomes is THE difference between the Bills and KC and why KC has won three SB's.

Mahomes is simply a better QB than Josh, and has been since 2018 when they both began their stating careers in the NFL. I REJECT the idea that coaching staffs have much to do with the the FACT that Mahomes is the best QB in the NFL and has been either the best or second best since 2018.

Every year since 2014 (https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/11156302/nfl-anonymous-league-insiders-rank-32-starting-quarterbacks-tiers), Mike Sando (first with ESPN and then with The Athletic) has brought together between 26 (2014 (https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/11156302/nfl-anonymous-league-insiders-rank-32-starting-quarterbacks-tiers)), 35 (2015 (https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/2015-nfl-qb-tier-rankings/story?id=32652348)), 42 (2016 (https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/2016-nfl-qb-tier-rankings/story?id=41230629)) 50 (2017 (https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/20400339/2017-nfl-qb-tier-rankings-new-england-patriots-tom-brady-green-bay-packers-aaron-rodgers), 2018 (https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/24119488/2018-nfl-qb-tier-rankings-best-worst-quarterbacks-voted-league-execs)) 54 (2019 (https://theathletic.com/1082093/2019/07/22/2019-nfl-quarterback-tiers-rankings/)), 50 (2020 (https://theathletic.com/1945894/2020/07/27/2020-quarterback-tiers-50-coaches-and-evaluators-rank-the-nfl-starters/), 2021 (https://theathletic.com/2727336/2021/07/28/2021-nfl-quarterback-tiers-50-coaches-and-evaluators-rank-the-leagues-starters/), 2022 (https://theathletic.com/3443022/2022/07/25/nfl-best-quarterbacks-tiers/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=4658383) & 2023 (https://theathletic.com/4723809/2023/07/31/nfl-quarterback-tiers-rankings-2023/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=7356484)) "NFL insiders" including current NFL coaches, GM's, coordinators, talent evaluators and QB coaches that are "granted anonymity to share unvarnished evaluations" to place each starting QB into "Tiers".

These evaluations are done PURELY on the traits each QB shows. These are published in the summer or each year so 2023 Tiers was based on 2022 observations, 2022 is based on 2021 etc.

The QB's placed into four or five Tiers (depending on year, most had four Tiers some had five....most years there were not any starting QB's bad enough to be in Tier 5). Each NFL professional votes fore each QB into a Tier.

Quarterbacks were then ranked by average vote and placed into tiers based on vote distribution. They are ranked from #1, #2, etc based on this average.

Each Tier is defined as:

Tier 1 - A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game.

Tier 2 - A Tier 2 quarterback can carry his team sometimes but not as consistently. He can handle pure passing situations in doses and/or possesses other dimensions that are special enough to elevate him above Tier 3. He has a hole or two in his game.

Tier 3 - A Tier 3 quarterback is a legitimate starter but needs a heavier running game and/or defensive component to win. A lower-volume dropback passing offense suits him best.

Tier 4 - A Tier 4 quarterback could be an unproven player (not enough information for voters to classify) or a veteran who ideally would not start all 17 games.

Tier 5 (when there is any) - A Tier 5 quarterback is best suited as a backup.

There have been only two QB’s that have been in Tier 1 since 2019 (based on 2018 performance….the year that both Mahomes and Allen became starters for each team)

Patrick Mahomes
Aaron Rodgers

Rodgers is the ONLY QB voted into Tier 1 in every of the 10 years this has been done. No, Tom Brady was NOT in Tier 1 every year he was playing while this has been published.

Brady was relegated to Tier 2 in 2020 (based on 2019 season) when he got more Tier 2 votes (28( than Tier 1 (22). So these evaluations are not based on reputation.

The 2023 had Mahomes getting ALL 50 votes placing him in Tier 1.
2022 he got 49 Tier 1 votes and one Tier 2.
2021 he got ALL 50 votes for Tier 1.
2020 he got ALL 50 votes for Tier 1.
2019 he got 48 votes for Tier 1 and 7 votes for Tier 2.

So, in all the FIVE season Patrick Mahomes was the starting QB for KC, he got 247 votes out of a possible 255 for Tier 1. A whopping 96.8%.

Josh Allen on the other hand, took three years to climb into Tier 1 territory.

2023 – JA got 44 Tier 1 votes and 6 Tier 2.
2022 – JA’s first year obtaining Tier 1 status his voting average was 1.22 for Tier 1 (they do not give vote totals every year)
2021 – JA got 20 Tier 1 votes and 30 Tier 2. He was deemed a “Tier 2” that year.
2020 – JA got 4 Tier 2 votes, 40 Tier 3 and 6 Tier 4. He was deemed a “Tier 3” QB.
2019 – JA received 18 Tier 3 votes, 36 Tier 4 and 1 Tier 5. He was deemed a “Tier 4” QB.

So, NFL professionals with all their expertise and experience, have made it crystal clear that Mahomes has been an ELITE TIER 1 QB since the day he became starter.

Josh Allen has steadily improved and now is consider a Tier 1 QB, but STILL behind Mahomes.

THAT REALITY IS WHAT is what I am saying. It is undeniable and indisputable.

You're so far removed from reality it's not even funny. Mahomes isn't the reason they win SBs. Reid took the Eagles to a SB with a good but not great (like Mahomes or Allen) Donovan McNabb and would have won it if McNabb didn't keep inexplicably throwing long passes that kept getting INT'd. And Reid never had a SB-winning DC like he has in Spagnuolo. And now that Brady and Belicheat are gone, their path is clear.

Again, no one will say that they'd take McD and Brady over Reid and Spags (never mind the STCs). That means they're a better coaching staff and coaching is obviously a huge part of winning.

[notacon]

You're so far removed from reality it's not even funny. Mahomes isn't the reason they win SBs. Reid took the Eagles to a SB with a good but not great (like Mahomes or Allen) Donovan McNabb and would have won it if McNabb didn't keep inexplicably throwing long passes that kept getting INT'd. And Reid never had a SB-winning DC like he has in Spagnuolo. And now that Brady and Belicheat are gone, their path is clear.

Again, no one will say that they'd take McD and Brady over Reid and Spags (never mind the STCs). That means they're a better coaching staff and coaching is obviously a huge part of winning.


So, you are ignoring all the facts, and instead of refuting what I actually write, you put up false straw-man misrepresentations (read: lie) and argue against what I did not say or even think.

Ignore reality if you like. Saying that "Mahomes isn't the reason they win SBs." has got to be one of stupidest, ridiculous things I have heard in quite a while.

YOU are the one that is "so far removed from reality it's not even funny.". Hope you enjoy yourself in La-La Fantasy Land. :rofl:

[Goobylal]

So, you are ignoring all the facts, and instead of refuting what I actually write, you put up false straw-man misrepresentations (read: lie) and argue against what I did not say or even think.

Ignore reality if you like. Saying that "Mahomes isn't the reason they win SBs." has got to be one of stupidest, ridiculous things I have heard in quite a while.

YOU are the one that is "so far removed from reality it's not even funny.". Hope you enjoy yourself in La-La Fantasy Land. :rofl:

No I've pretty much nailed that you are (conveniently) ignoring the large discrepancy in coaching talent and experience between the two teams, and in doing so putting all the blame on Josh and all the success on Mahomes. Again the Bills have barely lost to the Chefs in the playoffs while they've beaten them in the regular season, since 2020.

[notacon]

No I've pretty much nailed that you are (conveniently) ignoring the large discrepancy in coaching talent and experience between the two teams, and in doing so putting all the blame on Josh and all the success on Mahomes. Again the Bills have barely lost to the Chefs in the playoffs while they've beaten them in the regular season, since 2020.

I almost missed this (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5087536&viewfull=1#post5087536)….

“Reid took the Eagles to a SB with a good but not great (like Mahomes or Allen) Donovan McNabb and would have won it if McNabb didn't keep inexplicably throwing long passes that kept getting INT'd.”

Uhhhhh…..the “…keep inexplicably throwing long passes that kept getting INT'd” is describing much of Josh Allen’s negative's, not McNabb’s.

The fact is that both McNabb and Alex Smith threw a LOT less INT’s than Josh.

Josh Allen:

Career INT% - 2.5%
# of season with 10+ INT – 5
Percentage of seasons with 10+ INT’s – 83.3%
# of season with less than 10 INT’s – 1 – 2019 when he had nine.
Percentage of seasons with Less than 10 INT’s – 16.6%
Highest number of INT’s in one season – 18 – THIS YEAR, 2023

Donovan McNabb:

Career INT% - 2.2%
# of season with 10+ INT – 6
Percentage of seasons with 10+ INT’s – 46.1%
# of season with less than 10 INT’s – 7
Percentage of seasons with Less than 10 INT’s – 53.8%
Highest number of INT’s in one season – 15

Alex Smith:
Career INT% - 2.1%
# of season with 10+ INT – 4
Percentage of seasons with 10+ INT’s – 28.5%%
# of season with less than 10 INT’s – TEN - ONE in the last TEN seasons of his career
Percentage of seasons with Less than 10 INT’s – 71.4%
Highest number of INT’s in one season – 16

You are bolstering my premise that Andy Reid, although he is a great HC, did not see Super Bowl success until he had Patrick Mahomes. An undeniable FACT.

McNabb was a “GREAT” QB, no matter how mcuh you want to crap on him.

BTW…I am NOT “putting all the blame on Josh and all the success on Mahomes”

Why do you feel the need to continually misrepresent (read:lie) what I write????

What I AM saying is that Josh Allen does not rise to the occasion at the most critical times in the most critical games nearly as much as Mahomes has ABSOLUTELY DONE. Over and over and over and over again.

That REALITY was particularly evident in the Bills last loss.

That is NOT “putting all the blame of Josh” for the loss…simply that it is a FACT that he did NOT rise to the occasion and win the game like Mahomes has done time and time and time again.

This is a simple concept. The facts and reality support my premise.

Patrick Mahomes has been a better QB than Josh Allen every year since he became starter. NFL professionals agree.

He is ONE of THE main reasons (I opine the most important factor, but not the "only" (declaring absolutes are dumb)) Reid and KC has seen instant higher-level success (than any other team Reid has coached) and an oversized most critical reason why KC has been in the AFCC game EVERY ****ING YEAR MAHOMES HAS BEEN QB….SIX years in a row…ALL at home.

Winning FOUR of those. And Wining THREE Super Bowls.

[Goobylal]

I almost missed this (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5087536&viewfull=1#post5087536)….

“Reid took the Eagles to a SB with a good but not great (like Mahomes or Allen) Donovan McNabb and would have won it if McNabb didn't keep inexplicably throwing long passes that kept getting INT'd.”

Uhhhhh…..the “…keep inexplicably throwing long passes that kept getting INT'd” is describing much of Josh Allen’s negative's, not McNabb’s.

The fact is that both McNabb and Alex Smith threw a LOT less INT’s than Josh.

Josh Allen:

Career INT% - 2.5%
# of season with 10+ INT – 5
Percentage of seasons with 10+ INT’s – 83.3%
# of season with less than 10 INT’s – 1 – 2019 when he had nine.
Percentage of seasons with Less than 10 INT’s – 16.6%
Highest number of INT’s in one season – 18 – THIS YEAR, 2023

Donovan McNabb:

Career INT% - 2.2%
# of season with 10+ INT – 6
Percentage of seasons with 10+ INT’s – 46.1%
# of season with less than 10 INT’s – 7
Percentage of seasons with Less than 10 INT’s – 53.8%
Highest number of INT’s in one season – 15

Alex Smith:
Career INT% - 2.1%
# of season with 10+ INT – 4
Percentage of seasons with 10+ INT’s – 28.5%%
# of season with less than 10 INT’s – TEN - ONE in the last TEN seasons of his career
Percentage of seasons with Less than 10 INT’s – 71.4%
Highest number of INT’s in one season – 16

You are bolstering my premise that Andy Reid, although he is a great HC, did not see Super Bowl success until he had Patrick Mahomes. An undeniable FACT.

McNabb was a “GREAT” QB, no matter how mcuh you want to crap on him.

BTW…I am NOT “putting all the blame on Josh and all the success on Mahomes”

Why do you feel the need to continually misrepresent (read:lie) what I write????

What I AM saying is that Josh Allen does not rise to the occasion at the most critical times in the most critical games nearly as much as Mahomes has ABSOLUTELY DONE. Over and over and over and over again.

That REALITY was particularly evident in the Bills last loss.

That is NOT “putting all the blame of Josh” for the loss…simply that it is a FACT that he did NOT rise to the occasion and win the game like Mahomes has done time and time and time again.

This is a simple concept. The facts and reality support my premise.

Patrick Mahomes has been a better QB than Josh Allen every year since he became starter. NFL professionals agree.

He is ONE of THE main reasons (I opine the most important factor, but not the "only" (declaring absolutes are dumb)) Reid and KC has seen instant higher-level success (than any other team Reid has coached) and an oversized most critical reason why KC has been in the AFCC game EVERY ****ING YEAR MAHOMES HAS BEEN QB….SIX years in a row…ALL at home.

Winning FOUR of those. And Wining THREE Super Bowls.

The facts and reality are that superior coaching will almost always win when the talent level is equal. Not that it was equal in that game seeing as how the Bills' defense was decimated in the back 7.

Did you think that Joe Brady, a guy who was an OC for just 2 seasons in the NFL and who took over someone else's offense mid-season was going to be able to compete with a guy who has been a DC for decades and shut down the greatest offense in NFL history in the SB? Did you think that the fake punt was a smart coaching decision?

And Josh rose to the occasion in 2021. Only to see bad coaching and defensive play lose it for him. See a trend? So spare me.

[notacon]

The facts and reality are that superior coaching will almost always win when the talent level is equal. Not that it was equal in that game seeing as how the Bills' defense was decimated in the back 7.

Did you think that Joe Brady, a guy who was an OC for just 2 seasons in the NFL and who took over someone else's offense mid-season was going to be able to compete with a guy who has been a DC for decades and shut down the greatest offense in NFL history in the SB? Did you think that the fake punt was a smart coaching decision?

And Josh rose to the occasion in 2021. Only to see bad coaching and defensive play lose it for him. See a trend? So spare me.

Actually, you are offering up the reason why I think that McD did a fantastic coaching job (equal to Reid's....KC had one of the lowest number of games lost to starters, much, MUCH less than the Bills and the Bills still were the higher seed), and DESPITE THE FACT that "Bills' defense was decimated in the back 7" they were in PRIME POSITION to WIN THAT GAME.

Earlier in this thread you whined that (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265108-DIFFERENCE-IN-THE-BILL-S-AND-CHEIFS-very-simple?p=5085900&viewfull=1#post5085900) "And the Bills for all their "ball control" offense scored just 7 points in the 2nd half."....uhhhhh.....KC only scored 7 points less...14.

BUT, the Bills were in a PERFECT SITUATION to equal KC's 2nd half scoring and WIN THE ****ING GAME, IF Josh made better decisions. It was LESS of KC's defense that prevented the Bills to do so, over JOSH'S BAD DECISIONS after the 2 min mark, and poor game awareness.


The FACT is that the Bills and KC DO have "talent level that is equal" EXCEPT at QB.

The more you post, the more you bolster my arguments. Spare me me your blind spot.

[notacon]

BTW...in 2021. After the OT win vs the Bills (that the rules were so unfair that it caused a CHANGE to playoff rules) KC LOST to Cincy in the AFCC game at home.

The lost because of VERY RARE TERRIBLE decision making by Mahomes both at the end of the first half and especially in OT, when he threw three AWFUL passes in a row....the last one a extremely POOR boneheaded INT that allowed Cincy to win and go to the SB.

Was that Reid's fault or Mahomes????

[notacon]

It's been fun bantering with you Gooby, but we are both dug into our positions and the evidence, facts and plain common sense favor mine (which is why I embraced it in the first place) your continuing misrepresentation of what I have actually written which describes the basis my position is annoying and tiresome.

Especially the dishonest canard that I am "blaming" Josh Allen for the latest loss and why the Bills have not gotten to a Super Bowl during his young career.

I am not "blaming" Josh Allen as much as I am accurately observing that he has failed to rise to the level (and frequency) of Mahomes in clutch play at the most critical times. Does not mean that he won't in the future....in fact I not only believe that Josh will do so, but he will bring more than one Lombardi to Buffalo once he learns the lessons that Kurt Warner so aptly observed (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/fmia/news/fmia-conference-championships-brock-purdy-delivers-again-to-meet-mahomes-in-super-bowl).

Since you brought up INT's in your lame effort to downplay Donovan McNabb's stellar career, here is one last stat that I'll leave you with.

Career INT % from BEST to WORST for the four QB's that have been mentioned....


1. Patrick Mahomes - 1.8%
2. Alex Smith - 2.1%
3. Donovan McNabb - 2.2%
4. Josh Allen - 2.5%

With that final fact that supports my arguments, I rest my case.