Some inside details of the 32nd pick trade

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Cam Wolfe said he was in Foxborough for the draft and talked about the story behind 32nd pick on the Steve Smith Sr. show. Basically he said the Pats had Legette and Coleman rated very similarly and wanted one of them, so they put an offer to the Bills. But they feel Bills used them by using that info to talk to the Panthers to allow Panthers to come up to take Legette and the Bills took Coleman. The Pats wound up with none. Cam said he does not know how Beane knew the Panthers are not going to take Coleman but speculated "Gentleman's agreement. You get your guy, I get my guy." - 50:20 mark

I did remember Beane said in post draft conference they had talked about trade with team in their own division as well as some better offers for trades. No specific details, like better offer for which trade nor which team in the division.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBQVjSm_VNA

https://youtu.be/HBQVjSm_VNA?t=3020

[YardRat]

The teams could have stayed where they were and still gotten "their guy", don't see why Carolina would make the trade if they knew Buffalo wanted Colemen.

[DraftBoy]

The teams could have stayed where they were and still gotten "their guy", don't see why Carolina would make the trade if they knew Buffalo wanted Colemen.

Maybe there didn’t know. Carolina calls wanting to get Legette and why would they care or need to know who Buffalo wanted as long as they got the deal done.

[sahlensguy]

The teams could have stayed where they were and still gotten "their guy", don't see why Carolina would make the trade if they knew Buffalo wanted Colemen.

If Carolina wouldn't have traded up with the us, then we could have traded with New England I guess. Possibly seeing the Patriots taking Legette.

I don't agree with the assumption that the Pats feel like we used them, though.

To do that we would have had confidential knowledge of the Patriots desires of who they wanted to draft, that Carolina did not have.

That can't be the case.

[Bill Cody]

The teams could have stayed where they were and still gotten "their guy", don't see why Carolina would make the trade if they knew Buffalo wanted Colemen.

Everyone knew NE wanted a receiver. Carolina wanted to make sure NE didn't leap frog them and grab Leggette. Buffalo had to know Carolina was trying to jump NE. Apparently we either liked Coleman as well as or better than Leggette. Screwing NE was just a side benefit for us.

[Woodman]

The teams could have stayed where they were and still gotten "their guy", don't see why Carolina would make the trade if they knew Buffalo wanted Colemen.

They traded with us because the Pats were going to.
They had to be aggressive to get their guy.
Years ago the Bears traded up 1 spot to draft their QB .. I always wondered why.
They were afraid somebody would jump up that one spot obviously.
Carolina did what they had to do.

[Goobylal]

Everyone knew NE wanted a receiver. Carolina wanted to make sure NE didn't leap frog them and grab Leggette. Buffalo had to know Carolina was trying to jump NE. Apparently we either liked Coleman as well as or better than Leggette. Screwing NE was just a side benefit for us.

This. The Bills wanted Coleman and asked the Panthers who they were going to take and when they said Legette they made the deal.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

This. The Bills wanted Coleman and asked the Panthers who they were going to take and when they said Legette they made the deal.
So Beane played Morgan then.

If Bills liked Coleman more than Legette, and Morgan refused to deal with Beane, Bills would pick Coleman and Panthers still get Legette. Pats still wound up empty.

If the Pats didn't call, would Beane still call Morgan and would Morgan still give away draft positions to the Bills for swap #33 for #32?

A more general question is whether this practice is prevalent on draft day. If I'm at pick x, I surely will ask the team at pick x+1 two questions: 1) do they want to swap with me and 2) who are they are going to. I can see a lot of resistance of answering the 2nd question in honesty.

[Mad Max]

If Carolina wouldn't have traded up with the us, then we could have traded with New England I guess. Possibly seeing the Patriots taking Legette.

I don't agree with the assumption that the Pats feel like we used them, though.

To do that we would have had confidential knowledge of the Patriots desires of who they wanted to draft, that Carolina did not have.

That can't be the case.
Leveraging (a more appropriate word here than using)your enemy to your advantage? Job well done.

[YardRat]

Maybe there didn’t know. Carolina calls wanting to get Legette and why would they care or need to know who Buffalo wanted as long as they got the deal done.

Maybe they didn't, but that's not what was said...Cam said he does not know how Beane knew the Panthers are not going to take Coleman but speculated "Gentleman's agreement. You get your guy, I get my guy."

[YardRat]

Everyone knew NE wanted a receiver. Carolina wanted to make sure NE didn't leap frog them and grab Leggette. Buffalo had to know Carolina was trying to jump NE. Apparently we either liked Coleman as well as or better than Leggette. Screwing NE was just a side benefit for us.

Buffalo was 32. Carolina was 33. New England was 34.

Carolina didn't have to jump New England.
And again, if as is insinuated there was a gentlemen's agreement between Bills and Panthers and each knew who the other was going to take them Carolina knew Buffalo wasn't going to move back with NE and risk not getting Coleman.

[YardRat]

They traded with us because the Pats were going to.
They had to be aggressive to get their guy.
Years ago the Bears traded up 1 spot to draft their QB .. I always wondered why.
They were afraid somebody would jump up that one spot obviously.
Carolina did what they had to do.

The Pats weren't going to, unless Buffalo was willing to pass on both Leggette and Coleman. And (yet again, as insinuated) if Carolina knew Buffalo wanted Coleman then they also knew the Bills weren't going to risk not getting him.

[Woodman]

Buffalo was 32. Carolina was 33. New England was 34.

Carolina didn't have to jump New England.
And again, if as is insinuated there was a gentlemen's agreement between Bills and Panthers and each knew who the other was going to take them Carolina knew Buffalo wasn't going to move back with NE and risk not getting Coleman.
they had to move up so we wouldn't take the Pats trade offer.

[sahlensguy]

Leveraging (a more appropriate word here than using)your enemy to your advantage? Job well done.
Yes, well done. I would expect no less from a top GM.

Used the Patriots, though? Sure. A little, but, that's just how negotiations work. No need to feign victimization over it.

It's not like we betrayed the Pat's or anything dishonest.

[YardRat]

they had to move up so we wouldn't take the Pats trade offer.

If we wanted Coleman, that wasn't happening.

[Woodman]

If we wanted Coleman, that wasn't happening.

They (Pats) were used as leverage.

We moved up to pick #141 from #200 .... 59 spots.

They wanted their guy .... we just made em (Panthers) pay for it.

I wonder what the Pats offered beside the #34 pick .... not enough to get us off Coleman obviously.

[acehole]

If Carolina wouldn't have traded up with the us, then we could have traded with New England I guess. Possibly seeing the Patriots taking Legette.

I don't agree with the assumption that the Pats feel like we used them, though.

To do that we would have had confidential knowledge of the Patriots desires of who they wanted to draft, that Carolina did not have.

That can't be the case.

It was barzzini...

[Woodman]

It was barzzini...

All along.

[YardRat]

They (Pats) were used as leverage.

We moved up to pick #141 from #200 .... 59 spots.

They wanted their guy .... we just made em (Panthers) pay for it.

I wonder what the Pats offered beside the #34 pick .... not enough to get us off Coleman obviously.

It isn't logical. If Carolina knew Buffalo wanted Coleman, they also knew Buffalo wasn't going to trade that far back and lose him to New England or another team. If Buffalo knew Carolina wanted Legette, why would they trade with a division team that coveted a WR, most likely Coleman? Carolina was going to get their guy regardless.

[sahlensguy]

It isn't logical. If Carolina knew Buffalo wanted Coleman, they also knew Buffalo wasn't going to trade that far back and lose him to New England or another team. If Buffalo knew Carolina wanted Legette, why would they trade with a division team that coveted a WR, most likely Coleman? Carolina was going to get their guy regardless.

You're assuming Carolina knew we only wanted Coleman.

[Goobylal]

Beane is tight with Morgan. He probably was told by Morgan that they wanted Legette and not Coleman and Beane told him he wanted Coleman. The Cheats come calling saying they want one of the two, Beane tells Morgan they want one of the 2 so Morgan moves up one to ensure they get Legette. The Bills win because they get their WR and a higher pick and the Cheats don't get either WR.

[Woodman]

You're assuming Carolina knew we only wanted Coleman.


Carolina guaranteed their guy by trading with us and that was the only way to do it. :boozer:

[YardRat]

You're assuming Carolina knew we only wanted Coleman.

I'm not assuming, it's the implication in the video that I am disagreeing with. The trade makes more sense if they didn't have a 'gentlemen's agreement' and didn't know who we wanted to pick.

[YardRat]

Beane is tight with Morgan. He probably was told by Morgan that they wanted Legette and not Coleman and Beane told him he wanted Coleman. The Cheats come calling saying they want one of the two, Beane tells Morgan they want one of the 2 so Morgan moves up one to ensure they get Legette. The Bills win because they get their WR and a higher pick and the Cheats don't get either WR.

If Buffalo traded with New England the Bills would have been the team shut out from the two receivers. NE takes one at 32, Carolina at 33, and Buffalo is sitting there at the Patriot's former 34 with both guys gone.

[YardRat]

On a side note, it's going to be ironic if down the road Legette becomes the real stud of the class and the trade with Carolina ends up being worse than the one with KC.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

If Buffalo traded with New England the Bills would have been the team shut out from the two receivers. NE takes one at 32, Carolina at 33, and Buffalo is sitting there at the Patriot's former 34 with both guys gone.

Buffalo is at the pole position whereas NE is at the vulnerable position - assuming (quite certain by all accounts) that they valued Legette and Coleman being the highest on their board, even borderline the remaining 1st rounders. I remember Beane explained last year in trade (up 2 slots) with the Jags to pick Kincaid, he had to give out info, like the pick is on offense or defense, even further down to O-line or other position etc. without actually giving out the name. Bottomline is the pole position team has to be comfortable that their prize is NOT threatened unless, of course, overwhelmed with the offer in which I don't believe is the case. We can probably assume that Beane felt threatened from NE's offer that they will pick one of Legette and Coleman. With Carolina in between, he had to make sure Caroline was not going to take Coleman. Like Gooblal said above, he is tight with Morgan. Morgan might have already checked with Beane but he should have no idea the conversation between the Bills and the Pats. The "gentleman's agreement" I suppose is referring to Beane shared that info to Morgan that the Pats were willing to pay to move up for one of Legette/Coleman. If Morgan was keying on Legette, then he felt threatened that his guy could go to the Pats right in front of him. Thus he had to pay up to the Bills to get to the pole position.

If the Bills want Legette, none of this happens.

If the Bills were taking open bids from the Pats and the Panthers, no one gives a damn about what comes about. But if you gather as much info as possible from me, probably already decided you don't want to do business with me based on that info, but turned around to use that info to benefit from a 3rd party, then you are "playing me." So Beane can forget about doing future trades with the Pats for awhile.

[Bill Cody]

If we wanted Coleman, that wasn't happening.

We wouldn't have told Carolina who we were drafting. No reason to.

[notacon]

Everyone knew NE wanted a receiver. Carolina wanted to make sure NE didn't leap frog them and grab Leggette. Buffalo had to know Carolina was trying to jump NE. Apparently we either liked Coleman as well as or better than Leggette. Screwing NE was just a side benefit for us.

As I wrote in another thread. (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/265808-No-Wonder-Beane-fell-in-love-with-Coleman?p=5103425&viewfull=1#post5103425)...it's rather obvious that once Brian Thomas went off the board, Keon Coleman was THE player they had their sites on and wanted.

A knowledgeable and skillful GM like Beane has already had his team of scouts and analysts not only develop their own draft board, but draft boards of other teams as well. It's well known that teams conduct their own mock drafts to go through all the possibilities of what other teams will do.

From my other post...

Beane knew that KC was not going to pick Coleman and did not care if they made Worthy (or any other WR on the board at that point) their pick. Beane also knew that the Cowboys, Ravens and 49ers were not going after Coleman. Turns out that he was ready to use #32 for Coleman, but then another gift landed in his lap with Carolina moving up. They obviously had their guy, Legette, in their sites and did not want any other team trading with the Bills to get him.

[Goobylal]

If Buffalo traded with New England the Bills would have been the team shut out from the two receivers. NE takes one at 32, Carolina at 33, and Buffalo is sitting there at the Patriot's former 34 with both guys gone.

Yup. That's why they didn't trade down with the Cheats and instead used their offer/interest to get Morgan to trade up. Maybe Beane didn't tell Morgan he wanted Coleman and/or told him the Cheats wanted Legette only, which would have been smart. IDK, but he got his WR and a higher pick in the 5th round.

[acehole]

On a side note, it's going to be ironic if down the road Legette becomes the real stud of the class and the trade with Carolina ends up being worse than the one with KC.

I actually think Leggete may have a better start.

Once K Colmen and Josh Mesh its over.

I do think that will take time.

[acehole]

Reaching for Polk would indicate there is some truth to this/

[Bill Cody]

On a side note, it's going to be ironic if down the road Legette becomes the real stud of the class and the trade with Carolina ends up being worse than the one with KC.

It is a possibility. The only real knock on Legette is he only performed at a high level for 1 year. But he could just be a late bloomer.

[Ed]

I think Dan Morgan knows Beane well enough to know that if he was willing to trade back from 28 to 32 then he didn't have any 1st round grades left, and would more than likely be willing to trade out of 32 again. So in order to not get jumped and secure Legette, Morgan made an easy offer to Beane that allowed both of them to still be in control of who they want. I'm sure Beane told Morgan he needed to know first who his guy was and in that scenario Carolina has nothing to lose by sharing the player.

It's similar to last year when Beane traded up with Jax for Kincaid. The Jags GM wanted whatever O-lineman they ended up with so the Jags GM told Beane "you need to tell me if you're going big or small." Beane said "Medium" and the Jags GM said "you're taking a TE aren't you?" and Beane said "yeah". So the Jags made the trade because they felt good about still getting their guy, but they weren't going to budge unless Beane shared that info.

[Woodman]

It is a possibility. The only real knock on Legette is he only performed at a high level for 1 year. But he could just be a late bloomer.

1 year wonder .... not worth the 1st round gamble for most GM's.