what are you guys, a bunch of fin fans?

[Ingtar33]

geesh,

We didn't lose yesterday because of bad coaching, or because of Gregg Williams. We didn't lose from bad play from Bledsoe (he was 10 for 12 in the first half). The posts I’m seeing today should be on Fin Heaven for their loveable 70’s porn star of a coach. Wow, and we were bashing the fin fans for being fair weather? This is absurd! Since I have little to do today (a first) I’m going to break down the Bills offense for the 1st three quarters. At the end I have a small poll, I ask only that you read this before voting, as I think it lays out a few things fairly well.

Our O was stopped in the first half by penalties and Shaw's turnover (and there were some seriously bad penalties called out there as well as some deserved ones). Our O was undone in the 1st half by a D unable to force the eagles into a 3 and out (thank you refs for some seriously questionable 3rd down penalties). Think about it this way, our O had 1 possession the entire first quarter. What happened?

1st down, sack, loss of 8. 2nd down completion to Moulds for 5 yards. 3rd down incompletion.

That was our O for the WHOLE first 1/4 of the football game.

our second possession?
It came at 3 seconds left in the 1st quarter. How did that one go?
1st down holding penalty, making it 1st and 20. 1st down take 2, hand off to Burns for 2 yards. 2nd down, pass complete to Shaw for 10 yards. 3rd down pass complete to Moulds for 10 yards. 1st down Burns run for 5. 2nd down Burns run for 0 yards. 3rd down pass to Reed for 9 yards. 1st down, pass to Burns for 8 yards. 2nd down Burns run for 0 yards. 3rd down pass incomplete. result? missed FG.
Drive stats: 1 penalty for 10 yards. 4 runs for 7 yards. 5 passes (4 complete) for 37 yards

And the last possession of the half came at 6minuts left in the half with the score 10-0
1st down pass to Gash for 2 yards. 2nd down Burns run for 4 yards. 3rd down pass to Shaw for 14 yards. 1st down pass to Campbell for 14 yards. 1st down pass to Campbell for 6 yards. 2nd down Burns run for 1 yard. 3rd down pass to Shaw for 12 yards (Shaw fumbles).
Drive stats: 2 runs for 5 yards. 5 passes (all complete) for 48 yards

Tell me, what does Bledsoe, Gilbride or Gregg Williams have to do with this? Should they have run more? With what? They had 6 runs for 12 yards! They were 10 for 12 through the air, moved the ball well when they threw. When you have that sort of success through the air you want them to toss it all away to run more? For 2 ypc?

What do I see with this? Its two negative plays (sack and holding penalty) both on the first play of two of our 3 1st half drives dictating to the OC what plays he HAS to call. I see a third negative play ending the sole drive that didn't start with one.

How about the second half:

1st down offside from the eagles, making it 1st and 5. 1st down take 2, Simington run for 2. 2nd down Simington run for 1. 3rd down incomplete. Punt

At this point, the defense makes its 1st 3 and out stop.

1st down, false start. 1st down take 2, 8 yard pass to Moulds. 2nd down incomplete, 15 yard chop block penalty (an embarrassing penalty as Burns was blocking a man who was untouched). 2nd down and 22 take 2, 15 yard pass to Moulds. 3rd down, Sack. Punt
Drive Stats: 2 penalties for 20 yards. 1 sack. 2 passes (both complete) for 23 yards.

This was our LAST possesion of the 3rd quarter. We would be down 16-0 the next time we get the ball at 16 seconds left in the 3rd quarter. At this point the Bills go no-huddle for the rest of the game.


Now tell me Bills fans. Who is to fault? Did Gregg Williams do something that handicapped our offense? No. The players did that to themselves. What did K.G. have to do with our lack of running game? I see nothing here that indicates he could have or SHOULD have run it more.

So that leaves the culprit for the loss as either a) our defense. b) stupid and idiotic players taking dumb penalties. c) stupid and idiotic refs calling stupid penalties, that not only killed our offensive drives, but that also aided Philly drives. d) Gregg Williams because as HC he should always take the blame. e) Bledsoe for tossing the ball out of bounds on 4th down, down by 10, with 1 minute left. f) Jerry Grey and LeBeau for not getting the Eagles off the field. g) the O-line, two drive killing sacks, and one drive killing penalty.

[LtBillsFan66]

Thanks for injecting some sanity!

:up:

[northernbillfan]

:bf1:

Well said Ingtar.

[imbondz]

I was waiting for you to show up Ingtar!

thanks for the heads up.

[Dman]

:blamelog:


G DUBYA!!


:stupid:

:lastyr:

[THATHURMANATOR]

Great post.

[mchurchfie]

Good one Ingtar. I still feel, and it proves by what you pointed out, that the defense was the culprit in this. They may have allowed ony 16 points up to the last minute but the points came via long time consuming drives that kept the O off from field. The weak calls by the officials and dumb penelties by the players contributed with a lot of that also.:shakeno:

[don137]

As always, good posts.
From my interpretation of what I read from a lot posts of the GW bashing comes from the frustration of the lack of discipline (i.e penalties) and motivation of the team which the coach is responsible for. Do you believe that the team lacks discipline or has it been from overzealous refs?

Just curious Ing, Jeff Morrison said the players are being inidated with countless hours above and beyond the norm of film study and the players are getting burned out from all this films study and suggested that this could be affecting them on the field. Do you believe that this could be an factor or just an excuse?

[lordofgun]

NEVER have I said that GW was responsible for yesterday's loss. It's cumulative. He's terrible and we'll never win consistently with him as coach.

Boneheaded decision after boneheaded decision make LOG want a new head coach. :D

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, eh? I guess I got spoiled by Marv.

[Ð]

Fire Gregg Williams

[Ingtar33]

I never said GW was a good coach, only the moaning is pointless. NFL head coaches do not get fired durring the season, period.

To call for his head looks pathetic, especially since we did not lose because of Gregg.

Now as to penalties, when i was playing the holding call on Ruben was called a "good" penalty, though it was the result of Ruben just getting beat. Simply put, Ruben doesn't hold him, Bledsoe gets killed. The false start on Josh Reed, was a phantom call in my book, but if it happened, then that is Reed's fault, and second hand the coaches fault.

Milloy, Spikes and Burns all got jobbed by terrible penalties.

[Ð]

Green got fired during the season last year.

[lordofgun]

Sorry, but I was calling for his head before this year. I'm trying to get sigs to present to Ralph AFTER this year. I know he's not getting fired right this second.

I said sign the petition NOW, not fire him NOW. I figure if get enough sigs now, we can blast him with hundreds of sigs after the season.

Would I like him to get fired now? HECK YEAH! But I'm not unrealistic.

[Mr. Miyagi]

:bf1: Thank you Ingtar for straightening us up. :miyagi:

We true Bills fans will never jump off the bandwagon. Some of us slip off a little bit once in a while, but we always manage to hang on, especially with the occasional help of veterans like you. :D

[EricStratton]

Originally posted by Ð
Green got fired during the season last year.


Who?

[Pride]

Wow... the first time that I have not agreed with Intgar.

Lack of running game. We do not have a lack of a running game, we have a lack of an effort to get the running game going.

All I have to say is 3rd and 1 (2 times), and we throw. Incomplete both times, and punt. 2 Plays killed 2 drives. GW has the ultimate say, but Gilbride should get fired for that crap.

We are seeing the same problems week in and week out, dating back to last year. I am sick of the vanilla play calling on both O and D.

Off with the entire coaching staff! I said this after last season, and I stick by it!

[imbondz]

Originally posted by EricStratton
Who?

Green

[JJamezz]

I'm getting a little PO'd at all the 'jumping off the bandwagon' comments.. As log said, this is cumulative - its the result of the last 2+ years of undisciplined play & penalties, flat out asinine gameday decisions, total lack of ability to make game time adjustments (or WEEK TO WEEK adjustments for that matter...)

I agree - coaching didn't directly cost us the game yesterday. But I'm getting tired of the excuses. We're currently 31ST in the league in rushing yardage... Do we have the 2nd worst O-line in the league? Doubtful... Particularly considering we ran the ball much more effectively last season with the same personnel minus Sullivan. Is this all Pucillo's fault? Or does the blame sit squarely with the coaching staff?

As far as penalties, we're 28th... Where does the fault lie there? THe immediate blame obviously goes to the players, but who's responsible for creating discipline to remedy this?

Most of us are not placing the blame completely on GW's or Gilbride's shoulders, but there are some GLARING inadequacies coaching wise on this team, and again, they've been going on for 2+ seasons - this is in NO way a knee-jerk reaction as so many people are trying to imply (and I don't include you in that group Ingtar). My concern is that this coaching staff is going to prevent the current and future talent from reaching their potential - remember, next offseason we will have more money to spend than we did this year. If poor coaching costs us 1-2 games in any season, that's TOO much.

I think everyone is just sick and tired of the same old excuses, now 1/4 of the way through GW's 3rd year - we're hearing the SAME EXACT soundbites after a loss that we heard 2 years ago - this week was all about how we have to get back to the fundamentals... how long does it take to establish the basics/fundamentals? Enough is enough already.

[lordofgun]

Originally posted by JJamezz
I'm getting a little PO'd at all the 'jumping off the bandwagon' comments.. As log said, this is cumulative - its the result of the last 2+ years of undisciplined play & penalties, flat out asinine gameday decisions, total lack of ability to make game time adjustments (or WEEK TO WEEK adjustments for that matter...)

I agree - coaching didn't directly cost us the game yesterday. But I'm getting tired of the excuses. We're currently 31ST in the league in rushing yardage... Do we have the 2nd worst O-line in the league? Doubtful... Particularly considering we ran the ball much more effectively last season with the same personnel minus Sullivan. Is this all Pucillo's fault? Or does the blame sit squarely with the coaching staff?

As far as penalties, we're 28th... Where does the fault lie there? THe immediate blame obviously goes to the players, but who's responsible for creating discipline to remedy this?

Most of us are not placing the blame completely on GW's or Gilbride's shoulders, but there are some GLARING inadequacies coaching wise on this team, and again, they've been going on for 2+ seasons - this is in NO way a knee-jerk reaction as so many people are trying to imply (and I don't include you in that group Ingtar). My concern is that this coaching staff is going to prevent the current and future talent from reaching their potential - remember, next offseason we will have more money to spend than we did this year. If poor coaching costs us 1-2 games in any season, that's TOO much.

I think everyone is just sick and tired of the same old excuses, now 1/4 of the way through GW's 3rd year - we're hearing the SAME EXACT soundbites after a loss that we heard 2 years ago - this week was all about how we have to get back to the fundamentals... how long does it take to establish the basics/fundamentals? Enough is enough already.

BRAVO!!! You really should post more, dude. :D

[EricStratton]

Originally posted by imbondz


Green


I know who, I was just wondering if he meant Dennis Green. Dennis wasn't fired last year.

[Ð]

My apologies, Dennis Green had his contract bought out before the last game of the season in 2001...just seemed like last year :D

[Valerie]

I thought the Bills defense looked bad. There were a lot of missed tackles and they couldn't sack McNabb to save themselves!

[TedMock]

Dennis Green's teams were good but were filled with turmoil and fighting. There's just nobody out there, other than maybe coughlin, that I'd want.

[Pride]

Originally posted by JJamezz
I'm getting a little PO'd at all the 'jumping off the bandwagon' comments.. As log said, this is cumulative - its the result of the last 2+ years of undisciplined play & penalties, flat out asinine gameday decisions, total lack of ability to make game time adjustments (or WEEK TO WEEK adjustments for that matter...)

I agree - coaching didn't directly cost us the game yesterday. But I'm getting tired of the excuses. We're currently 31ST in the league in rushing yardage... Do we have the 2nd worst O-line in the league? Doubtful... Particularly considering we ran the ball much more effectively last season with the same personnel minus Sullivan. Is this all Pucillo's fault? Or does the blame sit squarely with the coaching staff?

As far as penalties, we're 28th... Where does the fault lie there? THe immediate blame obviously goes to the players, but who's responsible for creating discipline to remedy this?

Most of us are not placing the blame completely on GW's or Gilbride's shoulders, but there are some GLARING inadequacies coaching wise on this team, and again, they've been going on for 2+ seasons - this is in NO way a knee-jerk reaction as so many people are trying to imply (and I don't include you in that group Ingtar). My concern is that this coaching staff is going to prevent the current and future talent from reaching their potential - remember, next offseason we will have more money to spend than we did this year. If poor coaching costs us 1-2 games in any season, that's TOO much.

I think everyone is just sick and tired of the same old excuses, now 1/4 of the way through GW's 3rd year - we're hearing the SAME EXACT soundbites after a loss that we heard 2 years ago - this week was all about how we have to get back to the fundamentals... how long does it take to establish the basics/fundamentals? Enough is enough already.

Post of the Day!

I agree 110% percent... This has been building for 2+ years... I was ready to fire him last year, but I kept hearing that it would improve once he got the player talent elevated. Well, here we are with mad skillz on O and D, and we are not performing!

It has to start with the Heach Coach, he cannot just be along for the ride.

[RedEyE]

Originally posted by JJamezz
I'm getting a little PO'd at all the 'jumping off the bandwagon' comments.. As log said, this is cumulative - its the result of the last 2+ years of undisciplined play & penalties, flat out asinine gameday decisions, total lack of ability to make game time adjustments (or WEEK TO WEEK adjustments for that matter...)

I agree - coaching didn't directly cost us the game yesterday. But I'm getting tired of the excuses. We're currently 31ST in the league in rushing yardage... Do we have the 2nd worst O-line in the league? Doubtful... Particularly considering we ran the ball much more effectively last season with the same personnel minus Sullivan. Is this all Pucillo's fault? Or does the blame sit squarely with the coaching staff?

As far as penalties, we're 28th... Where does the fault lie there? THe immediate blame obviously goes to the players, but who's responsible for creating discipline to remedy this?

Most of us are not placing the blame completely on GW's or Gilbride's shoulders, but there are some GLARING inadequacies coaching wise on this team, and again, they've been going on for 2+ seasons - this is in NO way a knee-jerk reaction as so many people are trying to imply (and I don't include you in that group Ingtar). My concern is that this coaching staff is going to prevent the current and future talent from reaching their potential - remember, next offseason we will have more money to spend than we did this year. If poor coaching costs us 1-2 games in any season, that's TOO much.

I think everyone is just sick and tired of the same old excuses, now 1/4 of the way through GW's 3rd year - we're hearing the SAME EXACT soundbites after a loss that we heard 2 years ago - this week was all about how we have to get back to the fundamentals... how long does it take to establish the basics/fundamentals? Enough is enough already.

Right on!!!!! The Philly game was the straw that broke the camel's back. In the last few years these mistakes were to be expected. This was a season that th Bills were out to make a decent run into the playoffs, giving them something to feed off of next season for a possible SB run.

The same **** continues, but the level of talent has increased 10 fold. Who can you blame? Answer me that Ingtar. When the penalties continue to mount game after game because of stupid mental errors...... Who can you blame? When the run works one season, and an upgrade (?) is installed in the offseason, suddenly it falls to the bottom of the league inevitably effecting the passing game......... Who can you blame? Consistent bad play calling (we're talking about the basic stuff here) week in and week out from the coordinators or GW or whoever the **** is calling that ****....... Who can you blame? Losing to teams that are struggling to stay alive and hadn't shown signs of life prior to playing the Bills..........Who can you blame? No execution and low intensity from an offense that has yet to play a full game this season......Who can you blame?

This has happened for way too long and it's time to correct it. You've said it yourself Ing, this is a team game, a game of cohesion that cannot be one or lost by one person. Well, if the cohesion is not there, who's job is it to create it? Who's job is it to spark the players in rough times? Who's job is it to say "Ok, that **** didn't work. Let's move on to something else."? Are we incorrect to blame the head coach for this ineffectivenss? I think not.

[Pride]

I want a game manager this time, not a D or O coordinator.

Dick Vermeil, Parcells type

[justasportsfan]

Nobody is jumping off the bandwagon here. We just want some results to show that at least the coaches have a clue of what is done out there. The lack of running game has to be blamed on the coaches especially when the eagles , regardless of which rb was running was able to run against us.

Ken Simonton would've been able to run against us if he played w/ the eagles. Although that reflects on our D, why is it we can't execute on O? Gilbride.

I have yet to call for GW head but it seems that he has no control over the team. He did not get this team ready to come out and play against the eagles. My biggest problem is Gilbride and not GW. I will reserve my judgement on him. Right now it isn't looking good for him.

WADE had half the talent GW has on both sides of the ball. There is no excuse if we don't make the playoffs.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Pride
Post of the Day!

I agree 110% percent... This has been building for 2+ years... I was ready to fire him last year, but I kept hearing that it would improve once he got the player talent elevated. Well, here we are with mad skillz on O and D, and we are not performing!

It has to start with the Heach Coach, he cannot just be along for the ride.

Couldn't agree more.

[mybills]

I voted defense. Prioleau seemed to be the only guy on defense in the first quarter, at least the only one making tackles. But if it were multiple choice, I'd also pick the stupid penalties by the players.
For example, Milloy was hardly touched when he accidently got hit in the leg, and he should know better than to shove someone. :rolleyes:

[Philagape]

I agree that this was a defensive failure. The run-pass ratio, yards per carry, play calling, etc. ... none of it matters if the offense isn't on the field. Of course, the offense needs to do its part, too, by converting third downs, but the more chances it gets, the more rhythm it can develop and the more adjustments can be made until we find something that works. The Eagles undoubtedly reviewed how the Fins ate up the clock. When our offense got on the field, they were cold and basically played like it was the first drive of training camp. We didn't know what calls to make because there weren't enough plays to get a good take on the opposing defenses.
That said, Mike Pucillo sucks.

[Ebenezer]

wow, nobody blamed DB..then again, it wasn't his fault...

GW.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
I never said GW was a good coach, only the moaning is pointless. NFL head coaches do not get fired durring the season, period.

To call for his head looks pathetic, especially since we did not lose because of Gregg.

Now as to penalties, when i was playing the holding call on Ruben was called a "good" penalty, though it was the result of Ruben just getting beat. Simply put, Ruben doesn't hold him, Bledsoe gets killed. The false start on Josh Reed, was a phantom call in my book, but if it happened, then that is Reed's fault, and second hand the coaches fault.

Milloy, Spikes and Burns all got jobbed by terrible penalties.


Your thoughts this offseason if we go 9-7 or worse?

Do you like Tom Coughlin?


Originally posted by EricStratton
Who?

Dennis Green, Vikes coach never made it to the end of the season

[John Doe]

Jaded 7 has is right on in her comment about the terrible tackling by the defense. Even when we got a sack it took three shots to actually wrap up McNab.

The two turning points IMHO were the Shaw fumble and the Milloy penalty. You can say that Milloy got jobbed by the ref, but he took a BIG run at the guy. The ref had to throw the flag. Now, did he suddenly have a mental lapse because of GW's coaching? He is a veteran and should know better. Did GW's "lack of dicipline" contribute to Shaw's fumble? Teams will lose games for a variety of reasons. In this game, I don't think that the coaching by GW was one of them.

[Historian]

He should have been canned after the 35-0 loss at San Francisco in 2001. This team has twice the talent of any Wade Phillips team, and has underachieved each year.

Its time to go in a different direction.

FIRE HIM!!!

[Philagape]

Originally posted by Philagape
That said, Mike Pucillo sucks.

I forgot, so does Pierson Prioleau

[Tatonka]

milloy did not get "jobbed"... he pushed a guy like a rookie, right in front of a ref... he is supposed to be a leader.. he play cost us dearly, as they scored the first td shortly there after.

the thing that bugs me is the 3 and 1 calls.. i am so sick of saying, right before a third and one play "wonder who they are going to THROW to this time"... on 3 and 1.. you pound it.. or spred them out, but you still run...

i am tired of seeing our pass rush go up in smoke. did you notice on that last series of the game, the eagle had the ball.. it was 3-7 i think. that O line just built a wall around mcnabb and he just stood there and waited.. it seemed like an hour.. it looked like every d lineman was just spinning their wheels.

i also dont think it is fair to say someone is "jumping off the bandwagon" because they ***** about a piss poor performance by poorly coached players.

[SABURZFAN]

i don't think that it was just ONE thing.it was a combination of a few things.

dumb penalties
OL
the playcalling
maybe a couple of bad calls from the refs


and maybe a couple of other things that i failed to mention.after our defense was on the field for about 12-13 minutes of the 1st quarter,i knew we were in for a long day.

[socalfan]

Originally posted by Tatonka
......because .......a piss poor performance by poorly coached players.


IMHO Tatonka hits the nail on the head with this one liner. You want to know why I blame the coaches for what happens....I couldn't answer that any better than Tatonka did.