View Full Version : Just curious,...
Everyone blames the play-calling and coaching first. Drew continues to get a pass by many.
But let me ask this, I'll throw out some players and then I'm curious why many seem to think it's the coaching and not the talent at these individual positions.
Denney: We'll assume that no other of our DEs are better since they don't play in his place.
How many OTs are there in the league that Denney can beat one-on-one?
Adams: Many of you rave about Adams, but he rarely goes up against anything other than a single team and still doesn't make any tackles. What, 6 all season and most if not all of those were in the first couple of games. :huh:
Posey: The man can run around, but he's not good at reading things and often overpursues. He's not a great tackler and isn't that great against the run.
Fletcher: He simply can't cover TEs or RBs v. the pass. He's awful and only mediocre against the run and is constantly missing tackles.
So why is it necessarily the coaching? Couldn't it just be that we were sold a bill of goods about those players and that they're highly overrated by TD?
B/c it seems to me that if you have such inadequacies in talent, then there's no way you're gonna compete with half a line and an extremely overrated LBing crew.
It's easy to say "rah, rah, go Bills" and tell others they're not fans, but it's much more difficult to think that perhaps you favorite players aren't really as good as you think, or would like to think, actually are!
And if they're not as good, then even better coaching isn't going to turn a piece of dirty tin into a golden idol.
P.S. Not to say the coaching isn't an issue. I think we're all in unison that it is.
Wys..just an observation on Posey...
Why does he play decently in Houston's system and then comes here and turns into Newman?
venis2k1
10-28-2003, 07:29 AM
1. this is pretty much Dennys rookie year, you have to give him a little bit of a pass.
2.Adams was pretty much all that was available. and TD got him Cheap, cant ask for much more than that.
3. I think that Posey has been great, considering i didnt really expect him to do much of anything.
4. Fletch is overrated, he is always over pursuing and taking bad angles, BUT he is in on every tackle, and if he sucks, its not from lack of effort, its from lack of talent.
R. Rich
10-28-2003, 07:37 AM
I think you're onto something, Wys. I was just watching a tape I made of Howard Simon's show and he was saying something to that effect to one of his callers. He told the guy that maybe this team is overrated and that they don't have the talent to be as good as we all thought. I know that some of these players, like Pussywillow and Denney, need to be backups. We do need some big time talent up front, at DE, DT, and the interior of the OL. Hopefully, that will come our way this offseaon. Then, we can really expect to see some results. I think we're okay, for the most part, everywhere else. We could use a high draft pick to get a QB to succeed Drew, since he's not going to play forever and there is nobody in place now.
Originally posted by Dman
Wys..just an observation on Posey...
Why does he play decently in Houston's system and then comes here and turns into Newman?
IDK. But to counter that, why did he play miserably for 4 or 5 seasons prior to a single year last year and why did we expect that under a completely different system that he would match his last year's performances, or better them, vice not reverting back to the ways that he's borne out for over 80% of his career as I suggested way back when we picked him up?
Got an answer?
Simple odds I'd say or that perhaps his system, with very good defenders and a solid DL perhaps aided his play.
A lot of people looked at him as a playmaker instead of perhaps a player who benefitted from the play of the team, a stronger team than he now has, around him.
Also, in a 3-4 as an OLB you can more easily rush the passer w/o the resulting holes in the mid-secondary.
What's your answer to your own question as well?
Originally posted by venis2k1
1. this is pretty much Dennys rookie year, you have to give him a little bit of a pass.
2.Adams was pretty much all that was available. and TD got him Cheap, cant ask for much more than that.
3. I think that Posey has been great, considering i didnt really expect him to do much of anything.
4. Fletch is overrated, he is always over pursuing and taking bad angles, BUT he is in on every tackle, and if he sucks, its not from lack of effort, its from lack of talent.
1. Not true. Denney got plenty of playing time last year and on top of that he was a trade up second rounder. He should be better than he is and at least showing that he can beat an OT once in a while. Can you name one that we've played that he's beaten with even the slightest of regularity?
2. Not true. Thornton was available and we didn't even try to get him. The posters will tell you that we "wouldn't have gotten Spikes w/o Thornton going to the Bungals", but there is nothing out there to add validity to that other than opinions here. Lewis never said that. Nor did TD. Meanwhile we didn't even make a move to get him.
Besides, suppose what you say is true. Does that mean you rush out and pay a player like Adams $2M for play that you already have on your roster? Doesn't make any sense.
3. While you may not have expected him to do anything, others have. Others around you expected much more than we've gotten. As to 'great', I don't know how you can qualify his play v. runs as great. He's barely average there if that. He overpursues too. He's better than average as a pass rusher, but even if he were that good there, why doesn't he have more than 2.5 sacks?
Doesn't make sense that he's 'great.'
4. I'll agree with you mostly on Fletcher. But then why are we content w/ a below average MLB. As to his "being in on most tackles", Duh! He's a MLB w/ no DL. Stands to reason. :D
Novacane
10-28-2003, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
Denney: We'll assume that no other of our DEs are better since they don't play in his place.
How many OTs are there in the league that Denney can beat one-on-one?
Two! Unfortunately thier names are Jennings and Williams
Ebenezer
10-28-2003, 08:14 AM
In support:
Denney: He sucks...never denied it.
Adams: Never wanted him.
In disagreement:
Posey: He is a blitz line backer...not his fault he is being asked to do things he can't do well.
Fletcher: Are you on glue?? He's a MLB. Since when is a MLB suppose to cover a TE?? I want 200 tackles and containment out of my MLB and he seems to do that just fine.
The only wrong move on the DL was not getting Vonnie Holliday...who had the same injury concerns you always complain about.
Ebenezer
10-28-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
1. Not true. Denney got plenty of playing time last year and on top of that he was a trade up second rounder. He should be better than he is and at least showing that he can beat an OT once in a while. Can you name one that we've played that he's beaten with even the slightest of regularity?
2. Not true. Thornton was available and we didn't even try to get him. The posters will tell you that we "wouldn't have gotten Spikes w/o Thornton going to the Bungals", but there is nothing out there to add validity to that other than opinions here. Lewis never said that. Nor did TD. Meanwhile we didn't even make a move to get him.
Besides, suppose what you say is true. Does that mean you rush out and pay a player like Adams $2M for play that you already have on your roster? Doesn't make any sense.
3. While you may not have expected him to do anything, others have. Others around you expected much more than we've gotten. As to 'great', I don't know how you can qualify his play v. runs as great. He's barely average there if that. He overpursues too. He's better than average as a pass rusher, but even if he were that good there, why doesn't he have more than 2.5 sacks?
Doesn't make sense that he's 'great.'
4. I'll agree with you mostly on Fletcher. But then why are we content w/ a below average MLB. As to his "being in on most tackles", Duh! He's a MLB w/ no DL. Stands to reason. :D
1. Denney dressed for 8 games last year...mostly on special teams. Never played more than 10 plays in a game. 3 games he never even saw the field.
2. Maybe Thornton did not want to come here? Didn't he reup pretty quickly? I also never saw you once scream that you wanted him here. Don't pick a player who is having a good season and say we should have brought him in after the fact.
4. If Fletcher had 209 tackles and still on pace for that this year with no DL, as you admit, then how can he suck??
Come on. Be reasonable.
No, I'm not on glue.
:D
Since when is a MLB supposed to cover a TE?
Well, when we rush 6 men, our 4 fearless linemen, Posey and Spikes, and other QBs, surprisingly, :rolleyes:, have the wherewithall to dump the ball quickly over the middle to a RB out of the backfield or TE, who do you think is left to cover them?
Is this unusual in the NFL or something? I don't think so. It is for the Bills, but hey, there's a lot of unusual stuff on this team.
As to Posey, sure, he's a blitz LB as you say. But if he's as good as you say, then how come he doesn't have more than 2.5 sacks after half a season? Does that match the hype that was put out when he was signed? Don't think so. Even if we don't blitz as much as we should, he still lines up on a pass rush w/ the line in essentially what is a blitz, and he's still not putting up better numbers than I figured he would when we signed him. He's more on pace w/ his 5 "less than spectacular" seasons vice last season on a team w/ a very good defense that played a completely different scheme.
Does this mean that coaching doesn't feed into it? Absolutely not. Coaching is key. But we can't use coaching as 100% of the excuse as to why Posey's production, which is nominal at best, is so low.
Ebenezer
10-28-2003, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
Is this unusual in the NFL or something? I don't think so. It is for the Bills, but hey, there's a lot of unusual stuff on this team.
Name me other MLBs that cover TEs! Yes they sometimes cover backs out of the backfield but TEs? Rarely.
Originally posted by Ebenezer
1. Denney dressed for 8 games last year...mostly on special teams. Never played more than 10 plays in a game. 3 games he never even saw the field.
2. Maybe Thornton did not want to come here? Didn't he reup pretty quickly? I also never saw you once scream that you wanted him here. Don't pick a player who is having a good season and say we should have brought him in after the fact.
4. If Fletcher had 209 tackles and still on pace for that this year with no DL, as you admit, then how can he suck??
Come on. Be reasonable.
1. What? You sit there and count plays that Denney played?
He played regularly towards the end of the season and often at DE. He was used in a regular rotation there. Sure, he didn't see many plays. But again, expectations for a second rounder are a tad bit higher than needing three seasons to "come around."
And let me ask you, is he showing you signs, that no one else can see, that there's much hope! I'm not seein' it if there is. I routinely see him struggle, immensely I might add, against just about every OT he faces. He doesn't require double-teams in the least. So it's not like he's a half a season away!
2. Did we even ask him or his agent? B/c there were absolutely no quotes, at least no that I saw and I was looking for them at the time, in the media. So how do we know? Do you have ESP?
4. So what you're saying is that # of tackles defines a MLB, right?
OK. I think that many of those will simply be made b/c guys like Adams are missing them and that when you play in the middle of the field you're likely to walk into a hundred of those whether you try or not.
He's slow to the corners, makes a bunch of those tackles from behind. And I'm not saying he's bad against the run, IMO he's very average tho. But he can't cover at all and if you disagree, then you're simply not watching him.
I think we can do better at MLB fairly easily. I wouldn't say he's overpaid, but I would say we can do better. If you're content, then what can I say. :idunno:
Originally posted by Ebenezer
Name me other MLBs that cover TEs! Yes they sometimes cover backs out of the backfield but TEs? Rarely.
Come on. What is this a joke?
If a TE is anywhere near Ray Lewis on a blitz, then he's all over him like glue!
I detect an assumption here that I said that's Fletcher's primary role. Clearly that's not the case.
But on an obvious pass play where the D blitzes, WTH do you think the MLB is supposed to do? Wait for the run? :rolleyes: Or is he the game observer at that point. Sheesh...
Novacane
10-28-2003, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Ebenezer
2. Maybe Thornton did not want to come here? Didn't he reup pretty quickly? I also never saw you once scream that you wanted him here. Don't pick a player who is having a good season and say we should have brought him in after the fact.
He was calling for Thorton before FA even began. I remember it and I am sure others do too.
BTW, in case you've missed it lo these past weeks, in the Cincy game in particular, we've been eaten alive w/ over the middle short passes.
Why? B/c Spikes (often) and Posey (usually) are tied up rushing the passer thereby vacating the middle. If we're gonna play like that, then Fletcher had better be prepared to cover RBs, TEs, and even WRs who come over the middle. He's ill-suited to it.
TedMock
10-28-2003, 08:37 AM
I think Posey's actually playing okay, not great but okay. I've seen him several times this year turn plays back inside which is more than we can say for our DE's. Posey is not a good cover LB which is why I cringe when I see that. Also, you're right about the MLB having to cover in big blitz situations but that's not supposed to be the primary job. Unfortunately they've made it his primary job. Again, putting players in position to expose weaknesses rather than using their strengths. I'm very disappointed with both DE's right now. I'm also very disappointed with the offense as a whole. TH had a good 2 games but prior to that and prior to the injury he was running soft and indecisively. Hopefully he keeps it up. Bledsoe has played 3 decent games and 5 poor games which is just unacceptable from him. The OL looks much better on run blocking but seems to get worse with pass blocking every play. Gash is Gash and I'm pleased with him. I still say my MVP vote goes to Brian Moorman. He's been our best and most consistant player this season. I don't blame the coaches 100% but I put the huge majority on them. I've been screaming this for weeks now but I'll say it again. All players have weaknesses and strengths. It's up to the coaches to put them in positions to use their strengths and hide their weaknesses. Our coaches aren't doing that on either side of the ball especially offense. I can give you many examples if you're interested.
venis2k1
10-28-2003, 08:38 AM
MLBs do cover TEs more than you think, AND as for as im conserned for every tackle London made, there is one he should have but didnt.
MLB stats are very scheme-dependant. If you have a D line that knows what they're doing, and playing their proper role within the defensive scheme/stunt/slant called, then the MLB can make the "gift-wrapped" tackle because the schemes should be designed to funnel the runner to the MLB.
Not sure if it's coaching, physical mismatches, lack of talent or what, but the DL can't get it done this year. All you need to do is look at the way teams like KC could get 6 or 7 yards on a lot of running plays pretty much at will.
Originally posted by Fairway To Green
He was calling for Thorton before FA even began. I remember it and I am sure others do too.
I've liked Thornton since I knew he was gonna be a free-agent.
That's the difference between my approach and Donahoe's.
TD seems to prefer players who are either washed up, questionable due to injury status (Jones), or just beginning the downside of their career. (Milloy)
I prefer players who have not reached their full potential, who are either entering or in the midst of their primes, and who likely will become better.
Thornton was exactly such a player. In four seasons after his current contract ends he'll have a bigger dossier behind him. That's when TD will sign him after he's been his best and is 30 or close to it. I would have signed him and players like him before they amass their numbers so that they amass them here in Buffalo.
Milloy, is good, but IMO not worth what he's getting paid. Just like Adams it appears that Donahoe is paying for past production which is great if your goal is to sell tix, but not good if you want the best team that you can put on the field for the money you pay. Thornton went for only about a M more than we signed Adams for. Now if we had not signed Milloy or Adams, and signed Thornton instead, we'd not only have been set for years at DT, but we'd be much better this season with perhaps a better D. And we wouldn't have to worry about signing yet another DT this offseason as Williams and Thornton would be gold!
TedMock
10-28-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by venis2k1
MLBs do cover TEs more than you think, AND as for as im conserned for every tackle London made, there is one he should have but didnt.
I'm not saying that they don't cover but rather that they're not the primary TE cover guy. Usually they're handling short zone coverage instead. Fletcher is over playing a lot of downs too. He runs right by the ball carrier and takes himself out.
To answer my own question I have to ask this:
What is our Defensive philosophy?
Are we a 46?
Are we a 4-3?
Are we a 3-4?
Are we all of the above?
Are we none of the above?
I do sorta remember Newman being an up & comer until this staff showed up in Dodge.
Then his play tailed off drastically...until he was almost invisible.
All I ever here from GW...is "packages" this and "packages" that.
I don't think that I've ever heard a peep from Jerry Gray.
To simplify this..I don't think that the left hand knows what the right hand is doing.
How else do you explain:
"It was in a fire zone and we just didn't play coverage technique."????
Novacane
10-28-2003, 08:46 AM
that some players are talking about expecting a new coach in here this week.
I wonder if they are just hoping or they know something?
Originally posted by TedMock
I think Posey's actually playing okay, not great but okay. I've seen him several times this year turn plays back inside which is more than we can say for our DE's. Posey is not a good cover LB which is why I cringe when I see that. Also, you're right about the MLB having to cover in big blitz situations but that's not supposed to be the primary job. Unfortunately they've made it his primary job. Again, putting players in position to expose weaknesses rather than using their strengths. I'm very disappointed with both DE's right now. I'm also very disappointed with the offense as a whole. TH had a good 2 games but prior to that and prior to the injury he was running soft and indecisively. Hopefully he keeps it up. Bledsoe has played 3 decent games and 5 poor games which is just unacceptable from him. The OL looks much better on run blocking but seems to get worse with pass blocking every play. Gash is Gash and I'm pleased with him. I still say my MVP vote goes to Brian Moorman. He's been our best and most consistant player this season. I don't blame the coaches 100% but I put the huge majority on them. I've been screaming this for weeks now but I'll say it again. All players have weaknesses and strengths. It's up to the coaches to put them in positions to use their strengths and hide their weaknesses. Our coaches aren't doing that on either side of the ball especially offense. I can give you many examples if you're interested.
Yes, please list many examples...
...:D
JK obviously.
Very nice post TM!!! Astute!
R. Rich
10-28-2003, 08:47 AM
I remember on the Stadium Wall where we mentioned Thornton as an option as the season was winding down (along with others like Brandon Noble, Cletdius Hunt, and a few draftees we had our eyes on, like Nick Eason and William Joseph). It would've been a nice pickup, if we could have done it. Seeing the huge contract he was offered by the Bengals though, I don't think the Bills would make that big an offer to him. Oh well. Maybe this offseason, we can draft a big time DT to start alongside Pat Williams.
Dozerdog
10-28-2003, 08:50 AM
I prefer players who have not reached their full potential, who are either entering or in the midst of their primes, and who likely will become better.
Chris Chandler, Jeff Blake, Travis Brown, Shawn Bryson......
justasportsfan
10-28-2003, 08:51 AM
When every single player on a team plays like crap, it's the coaching. They can't get the players to play on a consistent basis. I've said before and I'll say it again, if Bellichick and Parcells can make a bunch of back-ups play as a "UNIT" where there are hardly any stars , you know that they have a good system and gets thier team ready no matter what.
I was listening to Harrison on the radio and he said Bellichick has the ability to get his players fired up and ready no matter who they are facing. He has this team ready to play different defensive schemes every week. This guys are ready to adjust at any point of the game while the bills are so freakin predictable and easy to coach against.
We've only been able to beat teams that have worse coaches and talent than we do.
Drew doesn't get a free pass. He sucked and so did our D. Clements , Winfield and everyone on our D was figured our by a better coach that knew how to play against this talent.
Vermiel (sp) has had three years just like GW. The bills would've been a better unit if he cioached this team.
TedMock
10-28-2003, 08:52 AM
Realistically we're gonna need two DT's. PW is playing well but he's 31. I wasn't disappointed with Sam Adams but a little weary. Hunt was the guy I really wanted. I like Thornton and Noble quite a bit too but I Hunt is a "space taker" that I felt would've been best with PW.
Originally posted by Dman
To answer my own question I have to ask this:
What is our Defensive philosophy?
Are we a 46?
Are we a 4-3?
Are we a 3-4?
Are we all of the above?
Are we none of the above?
I do sorta remember Newman being an up & comer until this staff showed up in Dodge.
Then his play tailed off drastically...until he was almost invisible.
All I ever here from GW...is "packages" this and "packages" that.
I don't think that I've ever heard a peep from Jerry Gray.
To simplify this..I don't think that the left hand knows what the right hand is doing.
How else do you explain:
"It was in a fire zone and we just didn't play coverage technique."????
Good questions!
I'm not sure myself. IMO as TM has more or less stated, this coaching staff is trying to force a square peg into a round hole. They hell bent on making this "46 D" work, if as you say that's in fact what it is.
The problem is that TD kept saying we need the talent to run the 46 and overemphasized the contributions of the LBs and neglected the contributions of the DLs. Yes, to run a true 46 you need fast LBs, but not at the expense of having no talent at DE and one DT position. That's silly, yet that's TD's beliefs apparently and something that a good chunk of the fan base bought into. I, like TM, have never understood how in any scheme w/ below average DL-men you are gonna do anything. Conventional football wisdom backs me and others thinking the same on that.
Yet, here we are! TD's team! Weak DL! Average and improperly used LBing. I don't care what ESPN says, our LBs are average! Great secondary but who cares b/c teams don't have to go deep to beat us. The irony is that KC did just that often against us.
Originally posted by TedMock
Realistically we're gonna need two DT's. PW is playing well but he's 31. I wasn't disappointed with Sam Adams but a little weary. Hunt was the guy I really wanted. I like Thornton and Noble quite a bit too but I Hunt is a "space taker" that I felt would've been best with PW.
Agree TM. Williams is a beast tho even at 31. Unless he really slows next year, he's got at least two good seasons left, perhaps more. It's not unusual for a few DTs to play well at 33 or 34. After that tho it's unusual.
I would have taken any one of those three players and all would have made this team incredibly more talented than it is. Noble made known however that he wanted to stay in Dallas w/ Parcells coming. That much I do know as I wanted him as well.
The nice thing about Adams is that we can cut him after this season w/o cap issue. The question is will TD?
I'm tellin' ya, he's McGahee's health away from some extreme criticism. If McGahee happens to bust, you're gonna see the floodgates open criticizing him.
Ironically, IMO this team couldn't be "trying to get this team moved" any better than if they were trying tho. If McGahee doesnt' work out well due to swelling in his knee or he simply isn't as good as we thought, then this team may very well be in a state of total disarray from the GM on down. We'd essentially find ourselves just where we were after the '00 season with only marginally better talent.
We have a LOT of holes to fix this offseason.
We need one starting DT and one who can play backup and possibly be PW's future replacement. (2)
We need the same for DEs. One starter, and one to push Schobel or take his place in the future. (2)
We need two OL men to start, one for Brown's replacement in a year or two, and at least one depth player that we don't have. Maybe Sullivan. (3 min.)
We need a QB since VPs finished in this league and Drew will be after the season when he has 20+ INTs with nowhere near a reasonable # of TDs to match. Either way, we need to groom a QB instead of locking ourselves into Drew. (1)
Drew has NEVER been pushed outside of Brady, and when he finally was once, he lost his job!
IMO we need a MLB too. (1)
That's 9 needs right there w/o addressing our other possible needs. It's also a lot of players in only a few positions making filling all of those viably in one offseason even that much more unlikely.
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