What's the book on #2 Kelsay?

[stuckincincy]

I'm wondering what your opinions are, to date, regarding #2 Kelsay? I've little idea how much he's played. Is he more suited for a 3-4 defense?

[The Spaz]

Both Kelsay and Denney are big enough to play the 4-3. The problem at least with Denney is that he has strength but he doesn't have the speed to get a rush on the edge of the OT. I can't really cooment on Kelsay because I don't think he has seen the field enoguh to get into a rythm.

[askabry]

I've broken down tapes of games; to my knowledge, the guy gets on the field about 7 plays a game.

Denney plays a fair game at DE, given that he gets ZERO help from the OLB (Posey) and his linemate (who is more often than not Bannan). He's shown the ability to penetrate the offensive line, if not take the right angles once he gets there.

As a first year starter, he's barely keeping his head above water ... but if Sam and Posey played to their abilities, you might see more from him.

[WG]

As a DE in a 4-3 you need to have one of two things. Two former greats exemplify the differences in the styles of the two types perfectly.

Bruce Smith and Reggie White.

Bruce as a speed demon but did not have White's strength/size/power.

White had excellent strength, size, and power, but did not have Bruce's speed.

You need on or the other to play a 4-3/46 D. Denney has neither. Schobel has enough speed to be decent, but not enough to be dominating.

On Kelsay, considering that we're getting zero production outta Denney, what, 1 sack, IMO if Kelsay were anywhere even remotely close to TD's hype of him being a "shoulda been first rounder", then he'd have been playing by now. The fact that he isn't is suspect to me unless we're satisfied w/ Denney-type, 2 sacks per season w/ little else, on the year.

Ergo, I have to think he was overrated.

Getting back to the point, if any of those three had enough speed then they'd be far more productive than they are. I rarely see any of them get double-teamed ever. So if they had the speed, IMO they'd have more than 1 sack/Denney, 3.5 sacks/Schobel, and Kelsay would be starting in spite of all that.

It's clear that at 275, Denney and Kelsay, and 260, Schobel, that they are not gonna be White type DEs, but will need to rely on their speed. But since they don't have enough to routinely, let even occasionally, beat most OTs in the league, I don't think they're ever gonna amount to players worthy of where they were drafted other than perhaps Schobel.

For some reason TD seems to like this prototype of DE. I don't get it. We either need a bruiser or a speed monster. We don't approach either w/ those three stooges. Alright, I'm being hard on Schobel whom I like, but really, Denney and Kelsay don't appear to have the tools or we'd be seeing some evidence of it.

[R. Rich]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
As a DE in a 4-3 you need to have one of two things. Two former greats exemplify the differences in the styles of the two types perfectly.

Bruce Smith and Reggie White.

Bruce as a speed demon but did not have White's strength/size/power.

White had excellent strength, size, and power, but did not have Bruce's speed.

What? Reggie had no speed? He was a 300 pound DE who could run, in his prime, a 4.8 40!!! That's slow??

[askabry]

How do you quantify speed, Wys? Denney was one of the fastest DE's in his draft, not only in the 40 (4.7) but also the 10 (1.65).

It's easy to say a guy is too slow, too small or too anything and quote some stupid statistics. It's quite another thing to look at game tapes and assess whether or not the player is getting what he needs from his teammates.

If you're not seeing enough evidence of Denney's play, I'd suggest you watch the games in slow motion. I see plenty of it.

[WG]

Originally posted by R. Rich
What? Reggie had no speed? He was a 300 pound DE who could run, in his prime, a 4.8 40!!! That's slow??

No, for a big guy he was very fast. But he did not possess Bruce Smith type speed. No way, no how. I didn't mean to imply that w/ size, power, and strength that speed wasn't necessary, but certainly less so. White used to manhandle opposing OTs whereas Bruce hardly ever touched them other than on the way by.

[WG]

Originally posted by askabry
How do you quantify speed, Wys? Denney was one of the fastest DE's in his draft, not only in the 40 (4.7) but also the 10 (1.65).

It's easy to say a guy is too slow, too small or too anything and quote some stupid statistics. It's quite another thing to look at game tapes and assess whether or not the player is getting what he needs from his teammates.

If you're not seeing enough evidence of Denney's play, I'd suggest you watch the games in slow motion. I see plenty of it.

Sometimes speed doesn't translate well from trials/timings to the field. That's why Vick is so impressive. He times well but is a speedy Gonzalez on the field too. Quite impressive in fact.

If Denney were that "field fast", then surely he'd have more than one single sack and be able to beat some OTs occasionally. But I haven't seen that.

If he's a speedy as you say, how come few others are seeing it and how do you explain the lack of production outta him? What, teams "fear him and run to the other side." We know that's not true. Could it be that he simply timed well, but doesn't play well?

What's your explanation of why he isn't producing more?

I can tell you he's rarely double-teamed and if you say he is then you're not telling the truth. So why can't he beat a single OT around the end w/ that type of speed?

What, the Skins, Bengals, Jags, Eagles, Jets, and Dolphins all have such world class OTs who can shut down any DE w/ the type of speed you're suggesting Denney has?

BTW, I'd like to see on those tapes where Denney has that speed. I have the Skins game on tape, the KC game second half and a little of the first, the Miami game. I try to tape them all but it's not always possible. So if you can find for me more than one or two isolated instances where Denney blows around his assignment I'd be interested in seeing that for myself. You're right, I don't believe it.

[stuckincincy]

Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully he'll turn on the next season, but of course that was Denney's hype this year.

What's gone wrong? The Bflo orgainzation has had a rep. for talent evaluation for many a year, especially in the lower rounds.

I sure got no answers...

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
If Denney were that "field fast", then surely he'd have more than one single sack and be able to beat some OTs occasionally. But I haven't seen that.

If he's a speedy as you say, how come few others are seeing it and how do you explain the lack of production outta him?

if you would read his post.. he clearly stated that he feels the DT and OL behind him are not doing their jobs.. therefore, denny has not been as effective. but you would not have seen that unless you read and comprehended..

[TigerJ]

The Bills are being their usual noncommunicative selves about their defensive ends. They must feel Denney still has some upside, though I'm not sure why. I think we've heard a few nice platitudes about Kelsay and a good story or two about Schobel. I agree none of them look like they have enough upside to ever be a star, though we know the least about Kelsay. Maybe the Bills think Denney can still pack on some more muscle. Supposedly he did get stronger over the past offseason. Schobel did too, or so the article I read a few weeks ago said. Eventually the Bills will probably get a bonafide star at DE, but whether its in the next offseason/draft I can't say. Until then we'll just have to wait and see if what the Bills have seen in all these guys is really there.

[Billzz]

So basically your saying if Kearse was on the otherside of Schobel we would have 2 dominating ends?

These guys are rarely getting doubled for a reason, they aren't getting penetration. Who is our rush threat that takes the attention of 2 of their linemen in any game? Atleast with B.Smith or J.Kearse on a line they command the attention of 2 linemen or atleast the runningback and a linemen in passing situations otherwise their going to pound your QB into the friggin dirt.

We have a average DE and a not so average DE. Somone needs to let these guys watch some Smith highlights in his great years, hell let em watch the damn game they just played against the skins.

[askabry]

Originally posted by Tatonka


if you would read his post.. he clearly stated that he feels the DT and OL behind him are not doing their jobs.. therefore, denny has not been as effective. but you would not have seen that unless you read and comprehended..

I appreciate that Tatonka. Some people - and hey, myself included- are too busy firing off a flame instead of reading before engaging their mind.

[zone]

We may as well take one more person off the line and move back to the 3-4, we have no rush, we can't contain so why have all the down lineman.

[WG]

Originally posted by Tatonka
if you would read his post.. he clearly stated that he feels the DT and OL behind him are not doing their jobs.. therefore, denny has not been as effective. but you would not have seen that unless you read and comprehended..

DT behind him??

Look, it's plainly simple and obvious here. If a DE is any good, then when he goes up one-on-one vs. OTs at some point he's gonna get around the guy. It's that simple and doesn't have anything at all to do w/ the play of guys around him or next to him. Bruce routinely went whipping around Ts as if they were standing still in his heyday.

Now, what you just said would make some sense if Denney were constantly getting double-teamed b/c our defenders were so poor that no one was worthy of a DT so that opponents had 2 extra blockers on any given play to allocate per their individual discretions as to where they saw fit and constantly chose Denney.

But as I've said, and perhaps you'd like to point out the exact times and plays on the game tapes so that I can go verify it, where Denney is showing anything, other than perhaps 2 or 3 times a game nominally, where he's shown the ability to beat his man let alone be able to capitalize off of the play of anyone around him.

Your statement suggests that if the DT and LBs were doing their jobs that Denney would have an unabated line-of-attack/approach to the QB. Clearly that isn't so. Since he gets constantly tied up by a single blocker, aka the man assigned specifically to him by design of the opponents O plan, I'd say his play, and more specifically his potential, has absolutely nothing to do with the play of anyone around him at all. How can you argue that?

Otherwise it's like a "Drew argument" where we're saying Denney needs three other linemen worthy of drawing a DT on each and every play taking up 6 blockers/linemen just to be effective. Well duh, if you or I line up, OK, perhaps not me w/ my knees, , but if you lined up and had a free and direct shot at the QB every time, then you'd be great too, eh.