View Full Version : We coulda had this guy...
Biggest draft steal
Dan Koppen has started eight games for the Patriots at center after being a fifth-round pick, and his solid play has allowed the team to keep Damien Woody at guard, where he has played well.
Biggest draft steal (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/6808403)
Instead, earlier in the same round, our "genius" leader Donahoe seems to prefer:
"Durability is extremely questionable. Hasn't played much since starting in '98. Toughness is also questionable, as he doesn't show much in the way of pain tolerance. Is sensitive to criticism and has had continuous shoulder problems.
Summary: Has shown he can be a dominant player, but history of injuries hurts his chances of getting drafted."
:bf1:
Nice job Tom!
:rolleyes:
Dozerdog
11-09-2003, 08:02 AM
Any genius can look back and pull a ton of all-pros and HOFer's that were passed over by every team a number of times. If i recall, you weren't whining about drafting this guy in April
Give me a break :rolleyes:
What is the point to this? More 20/20 hindsight?
Why not dog the guy for not buying Microsoft stock when it was cheap in 1985?
Dozerdog
11-09-2003, 08:02 AM
:deadhorse
Michael82
11-09-2003, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Dozerdog
:deadhorse
I agree! I am getting so sick of all the Tom Donahoe, Drew Bledsoe, Sam Adams, Ryan Denney, Dick LeBeau bashing. Let it go already! We get your damn point! :madcurse:
EricStratton
11-09-2003, 08:14 AM
31 teams and hundreds of player went before him and yet Tom is the bum.
I sense an agenda.
Billz_fan
11-09-2003, 08:32 AM
Yeah TD really missed the boat there. So did everyone else when Joe Montana wasn't selected untill the 3rd round :rolleyes:
Threads like this have made me a once a month poster. This one was irritating enough to bring me out of my hole for 30 seconds though :D
Michael82
11-09-2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by EricStratton
31 teams and hundreds of player went before him and yet Tom is the bum.
I sense an agenda.
Yup, Wys is out to get anyone named Tom Donahoe, Drew Bledsoe, Sam Adams, Kevin Gilbride, Dick LeBeau, Trey Teague, London Fletcher, Jeff Posey, Ryan Denney, Antoine Winfield, and Lawyer Milloy. :shakeno:
But yet, he likes Jerry Gray and doesn't think Gregg Williams has done that bad! :shakeno:
Dozerdog
11-09-2003, 08:32 AM
And I wonder if Modrak had a hand in passing this guy over.....
Replace Donahoe with Modrak and fire the entire coaching staff!
Then let's go to Disneyworld! :rolleyes:
Dozerdog
11-09-2003, 08:34 AM
Hey Wys- we will expect your Mock draft by February.
Michael82
11-09-2003, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Billz_fan
Yeah TD really missed the boat there. So did everyone else when Joe Montana wasn't selected untill the 3rd round :rolleyes:
Threads like this have made me a once a month poster. This one was irritating enough to bring me out of my hole for 30 seconds though :D
What about Thurman Thomas? look how many people passed on him. :rolleyes: Travis Henry? Aaron Schobel?
Originally posted by Dozerdog
Any genius can look back and pull a ton of all-pros and HOFer's that were passed over by every team a number of times. If i recall, you weren't whining about drafting this guy in April
Give me a break :rolleyes:
What is the point to this? More 20/20 hindsight?
Why not dog the guy for not buying Microsoft stock when it was cheap in 1985?
Yeah, and any "genius" can effectively ignore the team's top 4 or 5 direct needs and pick a wounded RB, a useless DE, an OLB that likely won't start for years to come if at all, a WR that was needed like a cup for a woman, and another CB in an already deepest area of the team.
Nice!
Originally posted by Mike32282
I agree! I am getting so sick of all the Tom Donahoe, Drew Bledsoe, Sam Adams, Ryan Denney, Dick LeBeau bashing. Let it go already! We get your damn point! :madcurse:
Don't worry Mikey, aren't you excited to see what Donahoe has up his sleeve for the '04 draft? Gosh, maybe we'll take a punter this year in round one! Or another safety! Wouldn't that be grand! LOL
Yes, any idiot can "look back and pull a ton of all-pros and HOFer's that were passed over by every team a number of times." Dozer, but it takes a special idiot to not be able to do a simple matching exercise to add a bunch of rookies and free agents (totally high injury-risk and performance risk ones at that) to areas where the team has it's greatest strengths and depths.
Interesting tho, ya know, I've never seen how an ILB can be changed post-draft to play C, G, DE, or DT, or heck, even QB. Isn't that odd!
Hmmm.....
LMAO!!!
Michael82
11-09-2003, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Dozerdog
Hey Wys- we will expect your Mock draft by February.
Oh, I can't WAIT for this one! :lol:
Viva La Donahoe and Dredsoe!
As they go, so opposite the team goes!
Ooops! I forgot, it's no longer about the "team"!
Sorry!!! Where on earth were my manners...!
Michael82
11-09-2003, 08:40 AM
Man, Wys....with all the trash talking you are doing about Tom Donahoe...I would love to see you play GM this offseason and let use know as it goes. Clump can tell you if it will work cap wise. You will figure out what to do with our FAs. You will figure out what FA's to bring in and who to sign and how to fit them under the cap. Don't forgot, Mr. GM, you have to also save money for June 1st cuts and your draft picks. And you have to make your draft on draft day with what is available to the Bills on Draft day. :D
Originally posted by Dozerdog
Hey Wys- we will expect your Mock draft by February.
How come I only have until February, and I'm sure you'll expect perfection then, when everyone else, TD and staff included, have until late April?
I gave you my picks last year, and quite frankly, if we had made those, we'd be better off now than we are.
Am I watching the same team you guys are?
Was this team .500/8-8 last year expecting to be at least 9-7 this year, now actually looking as if it'll be lucky to win another 3 games to finish 7-9! Lucky! A team that if it scores 17 points can be considered to have achieved an offensive bonanza?! A team that took 4 months to prepare for the Pats, then went flat like a tire over puncture strips!
Or am I and have I been watching the wrong team all these weeks....?
Did we adopt a new team here in Buffalo?
OK, that's it! And all these weeks I'm the only one not in on the joke! Oh, hahaha..., nice one fellas. OK, clue me in please so that I can ignore reality too and get all excited over our next losing coach hire, our next round of injured "steals" in FAcy, aging vet pickups, and totally out-of-need-area first four rounds of draft picks!
Clue me in please...
:lolcry:
I can tell you homers this, we had better win today, or you're all gonna look pretty silly...
:D
Originally posted by Mike32282
Man, Wys....with all the trash talking you are doing about Tom Donahoe...I would love to see you play GM this offseason and let use know as it goes. Clump can tell you if it will work cap wise. You will figure out what to do with our FAs. You will figure out what FA's to bring in and who to sign and how to fit them under the cap. Don't forgot, Mr. GM, you have to also save money for June 1st cuts and your draft picks. And you have to make your draft on draft day with what is available to the Bills on Draft day. :D
Again Mike, rookies are not a cap issue.
Matching a DT need by drafting a DT is easy.
Here were our biggest needs last offseason:
DT, DE, OG, C, and QB
We were deep at DBs, WRs, LBs, TEs, and RBS. At least much deeper than at the need spots. In addition, it wasn't any of those spots that caused us to be only 8-8 last year!
Here were our first 5 draft picks in the first four rounds:
RB (injured and extremely high risk injury-wise)
DE (in the same mold as the ones we have and questions as to his ability to play at the NFL level effectively)
OLB
CB
WR
Now, you can do the matching.
How quickly you who criticize me in the manner that you have when I was one of the few screaming last season to draft our need areas mentioned above.
William Joseph was one player who I remember saying we should have gotten. And OH, BTW, the word on him is that he's playing very well and showing quite a bit! Same as Kelsay... :rolleyes:
If we had to go after a WR, you can go look for yourself that I said let's go for a good one in Calico. Again, he seems to be doing very well and the talk on him is nothing but positive. Aiken??
and Crowell! When on earth is he gonna see starting time? Hopefully next year IMO after we cut Posey's ass for not performing up to standards of his pay. Won't happen tho.
TD has run an offseason media circus, not a good solid team management campaign which has strengthened the team!
I'm sorry you see otherwise and seem to feel that it would have been so difficult to match things up. You and Dozer then come down on me as if it takes some sort of well aware and astute NFL man to play Sesame Street's "one of these things is not like the others" game.
Laughable...
TD's done one of the worst draft jobs that I've ever seen this past offseason in the '03 draft. And since I've fully outlined what my picks would have been before, please don't make them an issue. And if you do, at least have the courtesy to go find some bumbling ones and dont' put the onus on me by saying things that aren't true and hoping that that **** is gonna stick. B/c quite frankly, if TD had had myself, or anyone of a number of posters here that I remember, conduct our draft, we'd without question be better this year than we are now. So as long as you're going for the proverbial throat, at least do it right. ;)
Enjoy today's game fellas...
And BTW, learn to realize when you're licked in an argument..., otherwise you begin to sound foolish.
:D
Originally posted by TheGhostofJimKelly
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
No way, Wys says the same things over and over.
I started two threads:
He rates us a "D" grade at midyear.
Only the Jets have a D also and only five other teams rated an F grade.
Seems like the only ones thinking we're much better than that, to date, and things unchanged in the second half, are right here on these boards.
Prisco's Halfway Report
that one and....
Originally posted by Wys Guy
Biggest draft steal
Dan Koppen has started eight games for the Patriots at center after being a fifth-round pick, and his solid play has allowed the team to keep Damien Woody at guard, where he has played well.
Biggest draft steal (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/6808403)
Instead, earlier in the same round, our "genius" leader Donahoe seems to prefer:
"Durability is extremely questionable. Hasn't played much since starting in '98. Toughness is also questionable, as he doesn't show much in the way of pain tolerance. Is sensitive to criticism and has had continuous shoulder problems.
Summary: Has shown he can be a dominant player, but history of injuries hurts his chances of getting drafted."
:bf1:
Nice job Tom!
:rolleyes:
That one.
The second one, hardly anyone agrees w/ me on, so mackey's incorrect there.
On the first, it was only pointing out Prisco's midterm grades. Go look at the posts and then come back and tell me I'm to blame for perpuating my posts/positions please.
Naturally, I'll expect the same world-class logic that is used in defending Blew's play as anything short of abysmal.
:lolcry:
Again, enjoy the game fellas. Let's reconvene during or afterwards.
TheGhostofJimKelly
11-09-2003, 09:03 AM
Just think, in 2002 instead of drafting Josh Reed we could have drafted Clinton Portis. Portis' draft preview:
Portis is an intriguing cutback runner who doesn't fit the normal NFL mode. He's too small (197 pounds) but doesn't play small. This helped make him a dominating college player but it isn't clear yet if he'll be able to keep it up in the pros.
This is about the dumbest thing I can think of people doing. Of course it is easy to critisize after the fact. C'mon Wys, don't do this to yourself.
If that's the case, then fully agreed. Instead, we draft a RB w/ an injury list a mile long, one that won't play this year much if at all, and who may never be fit to untie Portis' shoes at the end of the season.
The difference is that Reed was a matchup w/ a need!
Is that really that difficult to understand?
I wouldn't be all over TD if we had taken Joseph in the first, anyone other than Kelsay in round 2 for DE, a G or C in round 3, even McGee in round 4 wouldn't have bothered me then assuming it was in prep for letting AW go. If not, then it was an unnecessary pick.
Can't you see the difference? WE DIDN'T NEED A RB!!!
HELLO, McFly! Anyone home McFly!
WTH, why is the concept of "drafting to team needs" lost on most here? Is it more important that in your minds, many of you, that we have a "genius" and "poker player", who likes to bluff and gamble OH, BTW, than it is to put together a solid team with proper starters everywhere let alone depth?
Why are you or anyone else even arguing this?
Do you hate me that much that you'd rather see Donahoe screw us all over, as Bills fans, in another draft? What, what are we gonna go after this offseason?
We gonna trade our second rounder for Troy Brown who Drew needs to be good?
We gonna take a K, another OLB, another S, then a OT in our first 4 rounds while ignoring every single primary need at the starter spots again? All, what, in the name of what, "the best player available?"
I can't believe so many of you are not completely put out and off by Donahoe's bumbling off-season totally high risk and now in hindsight, and not so unpredictably BTW, offseason plan that has fallen far short of even mediocre management of the team's roster.
Whatever....
If we draft players in need spots and they don't pan out, then fine. At least we tried.
But to draft players in non-need spots, especially when we the need spots are what's holding us up makes about as much sense as denying that Blew's not worth $6M. At least from a "winning" perspective. I suppose those who believe that ticket sales at the expense of winning games takes precedence have an argument.
The_Philster
11-09-2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
I wouldn't be all over TD if we had taken Joseph in the first, anyone other than Kelsay in round 2 for DE, a G or C in round 3, even McGee in round 4 wouldn't have bothered me then assuming it was in prep for letting AW go. If not, then it was an unnecessary pick.
Can't you see the difference? WE DIDN'T NEED A RB!!!
Can't argue with you there. I almost spit out my beer when that pick was made
Dozerdog
11-09-2003, 09:24 AM
Who's to say we wouldbn't have drafted Kelsay #1 ?
What's Mcdougal done so far in Philly? He han't beat out Brandon Whiting for the Job- and Philly's defense isn't that great this year.
Michael82
11-09-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Dozerdog
Who's to say we wouldbn't have drafted Kelsay #1 ?
What's Mcdougal done so far in Philly? He han't beat out Brandon Whiting for the Job- and Philly's defense isn't that great this year.
BINGO! And the funny thing is...a lot of fans and media were predicting that. I wonder how many people would have been upset if the picks were switched. I bet the number would go down, drastically.
Billz_fan
11-09-2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
Do you hate me that much that you'd rather see Donahoe screw us all over, as Bills fans, in another draft?
Don't be silly, this is a MB for gosh sakes. It doesn't go one iota past a strong dislike :D
helmetguy
11-09-2003, 09:57 AM
Hmmmmm. Seems to me that there was another GM a long, long time ago, in a far and distant place who's Draft Day philosophy was to "draft the best player available..."
Ever hear of Bill Polian?
Tatonka
11-09-2003, 10:14 AM
wys
Originally posted by Wys Guy
I can tell you homers this, we had better win today, or you're all gonna look pretty silly...
:D
this statement right here shows me that wys gets enjoyment out of the bills losing.. it gives him more to complain about.
helmetguy
11-09-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Tatonka
wys
this statement right here shows me that wys gets enjoyment out of the bills losing.. it gives him more to complain about.
Naw, Tonk. He just likes to say "Na na NA NA na! I told you, poopie pants.!"
Tatonka
11-09-2003, 10:33 AM
yeah.. he likes doing that to fellow bills fans who root for their team to win.. wys doesnt seem to ever root for "his team" to win..
i can picture him just sitting back and pleasantly watching a game like the jets unfold so he can dog more people.
how is that being a fan?
Dozerdog
11-09-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Wys Guy
I can tell you homers this, we had better win today, or you're all gonna look pretty silly...
:D
How does this make us look silly? Explain please....
Tatonka
11-09-2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Dozerdog
How does this make us look silly? Explain please....
because you rooted for your team.. so that makes you a homer and homers are silly and you said drew wasnt the worst qb in the league and you think that td is a decent GM.. and you didnt agree with wys on every ridiculous point...
it is obvious how you will look silly isnt it?
Dozerdog
11-09-2003, 10:50 AM
Ahh... OK- so the reasonable Bills fan will Fire the coaches, fire the GM, cut the starting QB, Cut the second best DT on the team, cut the safety, cut one of the OLB's, cut a couple of OL guys.....
and we go 13-3!
Billz_fan
11-09-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Dozerdog
Ahh... OK- so the reasonable Bills fan will Fire the coaches, fire the GM, cut the starting QB, Cut the second best DT on the team, cut the safety, cut one of the OLB's, cut a couple of OL guys.....
and we go 13-3!
Close, the reasonable fan listens to Wys, believes in Wys and follows his teachings no matter how many times he says the same thing.
Then comes your part :D
helmetguy
11-09-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Dozerdog
Ahh... OK- so the reasonable Bills fan will Fire the coaches, fire the GM, cut the starting QB, Cut the second best DT on the team, cut the safety, cut one of the OLB's, cut a couple of OL guys.....
and we go 13-3!
Originally posted by Billz_fan
Close, the reasonable fan listens to Wys, believes in Wys and follows his teachings no matter how many times he says the same thing.
Then comes your part :D
THAT EXPLAINS IT!!! How could I have been so blind????
TigerJ
11-09-2003, 12:27 PM
If I could draft based on hindsight, I'd never miss.
Regarding Sobieski in particular. He has been inactive for every game thus far. I don't think that necessarily means he is a bust. Because of the economics of the game, first round draft choices start more often than not. Free agency contributes to that. You pay a guy a first round salary, you want to get as much out of him as you can. After his first contract is up, that first round player is already looking for big bucks, and depending on the teams cap situation, it may not be feasible for the team to resign him. A team will want to get as much productivity out of that three to five year contract as it can get.
That's not true of fifth rounders, who almost automatically get a league minimum salary and a small signing bonus. Coaches have a natural inclination not to start rookie fifth rounders, or sixth rounders etc. The thought is they were fifth rounders for a reason, that probably means they are not as ready to play the pro game either mentally or physically as a guy with experience, or the highly touted first rounder. Sometimes because of circumstances a team will have to start a rookie fifth round draft choice (Dan Koppen for NE). Sometimes, like Koppen they prove fully capable of starting as a rookie. Had there not been an injury he may never have had the chance to start, and Wys Guy would have had to look somewhere else to find material to use in bashing Tom Donahoe.
I don't know that Sobieski can't start now or that he won't be a great lineman even in the near future (next year?). I don't have any particular reason to think he has to be injury prone in the pros, or his inactivity thus far has anything to do with injury. There are plenty of stronger arguments to say that GW, or Drew Bledsoe, or Tom Donahoe are ineffective and wrong for the team. This was pretty weak.
BuffaloRanger
11-09-2003, 01:27 PM
Stating that TD should have improved the O-line in the draft is stating the obvious now.
But back before the draft there were alot of people that laughed at me and TigerJ (and a few others) when we were pulling for O-line help.
"The O-line is strong, they are jelling!" is what many said.
But enough of that. You can't rate a draft this soon. Sure it's nice to have instant contributors, but wait a year or two and see how things pan out. TD passed on alot of players I wanted and I was very disenchanted after the draft but I'm long over that. Stressing out now doesn't do any good.
Dozerdog
11-09-2003, 01:37 PM
If Damien Woody wasn't injured all year- this post would never have been created.
clumping platelets
11-09-2003, 01:38 PM
Marques Sullivan was a 5th rd pick
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