Offensive Line is salvagable - as is.

[Throne Logic]

I don't believe the OL is as bad as they look. With the current personnel, after some tweeking, I think they could be among the best in the league. Crazy, am I? Maybe. But here's my thought process:

People tend to overlook how complex the OL duties can be. You need reliable and adaptable blocking schemes for both the running plays and for passing plays. There are both distictive and subtle differences between the two. On top of this, you have to factor in ways to pick up blitzes coming from any given defensive position(s). This means that the "OL personnel" must include RB's, TE's and occationally, WR's. That's a whole lot of people to coordinate on the fly, each and every play. If you have shaky and/or overly complex schemes, then you're OL Personnel will spend more time compensating and/or thinking than reacting and blocking.

This is what I've observed (big picture) over the last two seasons from the Bills' OL Personnel: This line has, at times, been outstanding at either run blocking OR pass blocking - rarely both together in the same game. They are very poor at making in-game adjustments. Sometimes individual players look likes Pro-bowlers and sometimes those same players look like pratice squad wannabes.

My conclusions? Well, it should come as no shock that I feel that coaching is to blame. It looks as though they come into a game with a plan (based upon what, I have no idea). From that point forward, regardless of what the other team is doing, they stick to that plan without making ANY adjustments. This is why some players are constantly beat up in some games and are solid in other games. Furthermore, players are misused: Sam Gash, for whatever rediculous reason, is never part of the plan. I don't understand why they consistantly line up TE's in the FB position when Sam is easily the best blocker on the team. We've been wondering what happened to Sullivan all season. Price has been more consistent all over the line than Pucillo - why isn't he starting?

My solution: Very simple. 1) Hire an OL coach who has NFL experience; preferably, positive experience. It's very obvious that our last two OL coaches are newbies. 2) Hire an OC who's offense isn't rediculously dynamic and complex (read Ingtar's article on Gilbride's offense. It's very good). When the OL Personnel aren't relatively sure of where the play will be developing, they have a really difficult time deciding where and how to block.

OK - hit me with your thoughts. . . :couch:

[Stewie]

A QB that either a> can move around in the pocket or b> can look past the 1st read on a passing play would make our offensive line look much, much better.

Mark Brunell baby. I really think he's got some good years left.

[Pride]

I agree with everything you said... it all starts with the coaching tho... I have said it for months...

[IHateTheDullphins]

:up:

[E-Klips]

Originally posted by Throne Logic
I don't believe the OL is as bad as they look. With the current personnel, after some tweeking, I think they could be among the best in the league. Crazy, am I? Maybe. But here's my thought process:

People tend to overlook how complex the OL duties can be. You need reliable and adaptable blocking schemes for both the running plays and for passing plays. There are both distictive and subtle differences between the two. On top of this, you have to factor in ways to pick up blitzes coming from any given defensive position(s). This means that the "OL personnel" must include RB's, TE's and occationally, WR's. That's a whole lot of people to coordinate on the fly, each and every play. If you have shaky and/or overly complex schemes, then you're OL Personnel will spend more time compensating and/or thinking than reacting and blocking.

This is what I've observed (big picture) over the last two seasons from the Bills' OL Personnel: This line has, at times, been outstanding at either run blocking OR pass blocking - rarely both together in the same game. They are very poor at making in-game adjustments. Sometimes individual players look likes Pro-bowlers and sometimes those same players look like pratice squad wannabes.

My conclusions? Well, it should come as no shock that I feel that coaching is to blame. It looks as though they come into a game with a plan (based upon what, I have no idea). From that point forward, regardless of what the other team is doing, they stick to that plan without making ANY adjustments. This is why some players are constantly beat up in some games and are solid in other games. Furthermore, players are misused: Sam Gash, for whatever rediculous reason, is never part of the plan. I don't understand why they consistantly line up TE's in the FB position when Sam is easily the best blocker on the team. We've been wondering what happened to Sullivan all season. Price has been more consistent all over the line than Pucillo - why isn't he starting?

My solution: Very simple. 1) Hire an OL coach who has NFL experience; preferably, positive experience. It's very obvious that our last two OL coaches are newbies. 2) Hire an OC who's offense isn't rediculously dynamic and complex (read Ingtar's article on Gilbride's offense. It's very good). When the OL Personnel aren't relatively sure of where the play will be developing, they have a really difficult time deciding where and how to block.

OK - hit me with your thoughts. . . :couch:


I don't think this is crazy. I do think we need better coaching for the OL. We also need better starters at C and G though. Mike Pucillo flat out SUCKS! I've seen more than enough of this loser to know he's not a good quality NFL starter. Teague could be a valuable backup or even compete for a starting job as a T, but as a center, he's not that good. I also think it's time to look to replace Ruben Brown. Get us 3 quality players from guard to guard and we'll see a much better line. There's some pretty decent players available this offseaon in free agency and some may be available at a nice price. One in particular I've heard some good things about is Cory Withrow of Minnesota. He's the backup to their Pro Bowl center Matt Birk. This guy filled in for Birk while he was out injured late last season and played very well. He also has filled in nicely for the Vikes at both G spots. He is highly regarded by their organization; seen as an Ostroski type player who gives you the flexibility to use him at different positions. I think he could be available and would be a solid choice and a much cheaper one than Damien Woody.

[caveboy]

Starts with coaching for sure. And play calling. How can this line be consistent from play to play when KG doesn't even know what the hell he's calling. Run-throw-throw-run-throw??!?!? KG doesn't have anyone back to pick up blitzers and Jennings has no choice but to grab someone's shirt on the way to sacking Drew.

This line hasn't had time to develop as a run- or pass blocking line – they're a blitz-pick-up line. It's like every play they're under pressure with a blitz. Having a statue back there doesn't help either.

Agree about a QB that can move around back there. Seeing Drew stand back there makes Jim Kelly in a knee brace look like Barry Sanders. RJ was more mobile, but if it was possible, he held onto the ball longer than Drew. We need quick feet and a quick release.

It's obvious how teams play us: stack the line and blitz Drew, yet the only counter that KG/GW pin their hopes on is Drew hitting 'the big play' downfield to 'back them off.' Bulls_ _T.

Everyone knows Drew's slow, so they ALWAYS come after him. Their attitude is to blitz until they get burnt by Drew consistantly, which has happened since the season began. Opposing defenses willl allow a play or two downfield without it hurting their chance at winning cuz they know we are inconsistent in our scoring now.

[juice]

Originally posted by E-Klips
I don't think this is crazy. I do think we need better coaching for the OL. We also need better starters at C and G though. Mike Pucillo flat out SUCKS! I've seen more than enough of this loser to know he's not a good quality NFL starter. Teague could be a valuable backup or even compete for a starting job as a T, but as a center, he's not that good. I also think it's time to look to replace Ruben Brown. Get us 3 quality players from guard to guard and we'll see a much better line. There's some pretty decent players available this offseaon in free agency and some may be available at a nice price. One in particular I've heard some good things about is Cory Withrow of Minnesota. He's the backup to their Pro Bowl center Matt Birk. This guy filled in for Birk while he was out injured late last season and played very well. He also has filled in nicely for the Vikes at both G spots. He is highly regarded by their organization; seen as an Ostroski type player who gives you the flexibility to use him at different positions. I think he could be available and would be a solid choice and a much cheaper one than Damien Woody.

People critisize Rubon for getting some holding penalties, but the best in the game know thats what makes a good lineman the ability to hold and get away with it. I dont remember a holding call Sunday against him (I could be wrong). And give me a lineman who firers off the ball and gets a few falsestarts at least he's not afraid to mix it up. The line should not have been changed from last years starters just when they were starting to jell at the end of the year. The line coach made the wrong call with Sullivan which was most apparent at the beginning of the year when the run game was non-existant. ACC COUNTRY

[R. Rich]

Originally posted by E-Klips



I don't think this is crazy. I do think we need better coaching for the OL. We also need better starters at C and G though. Mike Pucillo flat out SUCKS! I've seen more than enough of this loser to know he's not a good quality NFL starter. Teague could be a valuable backup or even compete for a starting job as a T, but as a center, he's not that good. I also think it's time to look to replace Ruben Brown. Get us 3 quality players from guard to guard and we'll see a much better line. There's some pretty decent players available this offseaon in free agency and some may be available at a nice price. One in particular I've heard some good things about is Cory Withrow of Minnesota. He's the backup to their Pro Bowl center Matt Birk. This guy filled in for Birk while he was out injured late last season and played very well. He also has filled in nicely for the Vikes at both G spots. He is highly regarded by their organization; seen as an Ostroski type player who gives you the flexibility to use him at different positions. I think he could be available and would be a solid choice and a much cheaper one than Damien Woody.

Good observation on Withrow! He's one of the guys I've been tracking as a possibility at center. Like you said, the Vikes really like this guy and he's a versatile backup for them. I think he would be a great replacement for Teague.

[User Manuel]

Originally posted by paulB
A QB that either a> can move around in the pocket or b> can look past the 1st read on a passing play would make our offensive line look much, much better.

Mark Brunell baby. I really think he's got some good years left.

If your team must have a mobile qb to have a passing game, your team isn't good enough to win a super bowl!

The mobility should be a bonus to go along with a quality line to enhance it, not to bail it out repeatedly.

Remember, Brunell looked great all those years with Searcy on the right, Boselli on the Left.

I agree. Buffalo's line has the ability, but I think that Pucillo is a true center, Jennings is a true guard and Teague is a Tackle.

I thin a little reshuffling of positions could go a long way to helping.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Lawesome97


If your team must have a mobile qb to have a passing game, your team isn't good enough to win a super bowl!

The mobility should be a bonus to go along with a quality line to enhance it, not to bail it out repeatedly.

Remember, Brunell looked great all those years with Searcy on the right, Boselli on the Left.

I agree. Buffalo's line has the ability, but I think that Pucillo is a true center, Jennings is a true guard and Teague is a Tackle.

I thin a little reshuffling of positions could go a long way to helping.

I agree 100% ... QB's that aren't primarily pocket passers will never win a Super Bowl. While a scramble first QB works against mediocre D's, any playoff calibre D can stop those sort of QB's. A good pocket passer is a requirement if you ever hope to go far in the playoffs. Even a guy like Elway had to learn to look for the pass first before he ever won anything (and he even won largely on the back of TD.)

[G. Host]

Originally posted by juice
The line coach made the wrong call with Sullivan which was most apparent at the beginning of the year when the run game was non-existant.

Sullivan came into camp unmotivated partly because he did not want to play Guard and looked terrible in camp and preseason doing so which is why he was replaced.

The mistake, if anything, was not trying one of the other players (and trying again if necessary) as guard like Ross Tucker.

Tjose who constantly critisize Puc illo need to realize that Sullivan would be even worse this year. His performance in game 1 of preseason was pathetic.

[R. Rich]

Originally posted by G. Host
Sullivan came into camp unmotivated partly because he did not want to play Guard and looked terrible in camp and preseason doing so which is why he was replaced.

The mistake, if anything, was not trying one of the other players (and trying again if necessary) as guard like Ross Tucker.

Tjose who constantly critisize Puc illo need to realize that Sullivan would be even worse this year. His performance in game 1 of preseason was pathetic.


I didn't really track the progress at camp, so it's interesting about Sullivan losing his job like that. What I do know is that Pussywillow is horrible as the starter at RG, and they need to do something to replace him and get better performance out of the position.

[SABURZFAN]

the OL has been a major disappointment.it was so noticable even after we won the first 2 games.ruel is a disaster and TD did nothing in the offseason,or the draft,to help the situation.

[clumping platelets]

Who has played next to Mike Williams the past 2 seasons? Inexperienced Sullivan and Pucillo. My solution to the OL problems:

1) Sign veteran ROG like Chris Villarial from the Bears.
2) Draft the future at "C" and another young developmental OL that can play both G/T
3) Do not tender Marques Sullivan
4) Have Pucillo back up C/G next year and definitely bulk up
5) ALWAYS leave Mike Williams at ROT

[R. Rich]

Originally posted by clumping platelets
Who has played next to Mike Williams the past 2 seasons? Inexperienced Sullivan and Pucillo. My solution to the OL problems:

1) Sign veteran ROG like Chris Villarial from the Bears.
2) Draft the future at "C" and another young developmental OL that can play both G/T
3) Do not tender Marques Sullivan
4) Have Pucillo back up C/G next year and definitely bulk up
5) ALWAYS leave Mike Williams at ROT


The more I discover about this Cory Withrow for the Vikings, the more I feel that he could take care of your scenario in #2 all by himself. He's a capable backup that they use at center and guard. I think he's worth a look.

[clumping platelets]

Originally posted by R. Rich



The more I discover about this Cory Withrow for the Vikings, the more I feel that he could take care of your scenario in #2 all by himself. He's a capable backup that they use at center and guard. I think he's worth a look.


I agree with you Richie, but I would still draft an interior OL early because Ruben ain't getting younger :lol:

[R. Rich]

Originally posted by clumping platelets
I agree with you Richie, but I would still draft an interior OL early because Ruben ain't getting younger :lol:


Sounds like we're in agreement. Here's one of my early offseason scenarios (these will change as I get more info on possible free agents and as players get signed by teams or re-signed by their own):

1. Acquire Eric Hicks of KC in free agency.
Hicks is a very good pass rusher who also is tough against the run, two things we are lacking right now. He would also be cheaper than Javon Kearse.

2. Acquire Cory Withrow of Minnesota in free agency.
As I mentioned before, this guy sounds like a real steal! He's able to back up at both guard spots and at center for the Vikes now. He would bring the sort of versatility we used to get from Jerry Ostroski.

3. Draft Vince Wilfork of the Univ. of Miami in the first round.
Wilfork is the best tackle prospect available, and he would give us a great 1-2 punch with Pat Williams. This allows us to use Sam Adams as a backup, which would be ideal due to his age, injury history, and conditioning. If Wilfork is not there, get Tommie Harris of Oklahoma, another great prospect.

4. Draft Adrien Clarke of Ohio State in the second round.
Clarke is just what the offensive line needs: a huge (6-5, 315) player who is incredibly strong and just engulfs defenders. If Clarke is gone by our pick, we can look to Stephen Peterman of LSU; another huge (6-5, 321) road grader with a VERY nasty attitude when blocking!

5. Draft Phillip Rivers of NC State with our third pick.
Rivers is a big QB (6-5, 236) who has good fundamentals, a nice arm and great awareness. He's no burner, but can avoid pressure; he's certainly no statue. If he's gone by our pick, we should look to Jeff Smoker of Michigan State; a good sized (6-3, 224) QB with a nice arm and the ability to make some nice plays.