Is it me, or are some of the DL draft picks fom 2003 busts?

[Dozerdog]

November 29, 2003


The chart in the Giants' weekly media packet that lists William Joseph's contributions is a grim list of zeroes, one column after another of invisibility.

Tackles? He has four, one in the past seven games.

Sacks? One, when he got the Rams' Kurt Warner in the end zone on opening day.

The most startling entry, though, is not a zero. It is the one for Monday's game against the Buccaneers: INA. That's short for inactive.

That was not what the Giants had in mind when they used the 25th overall pick on Joseph, a defensive tackle who was to give them depth in the front four and be groomed to replace Keith Hamilton.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/giants/ny-giant293564143nov29,0,1088917.story?coll=ny-giants-headlines






Faced with enormous expectations, Robertson is slogging into the homestretch of a nondescript rookie year. His statistics aren't impressive (30 solo tackles), and there haven't been many impact plays.


Only 11/2 sacks. Only four quarterback pressures. In the last two games, he managed only four tackles in 105 plays. For someone who plays the so-called "3 Technique," a playmaking position in the Jets' 4-3 scheme, that production isn't nearly enough.


"It goes in spurts - some good and some not consistent enough," Edwards said.


"I'm not dissatisfied with my play," Robertson said recently, giving himself a C-minus for the season.


The Jets are protective of Robertson, and with good reason. After trading two No. 1 picks and a No. 4 to move up in the draft, and later giving him a contract containing $13 million in signing and option bonuses, the Jets aren't about to start griping about the player whose development could go a long way toward determining success or failure for the Edwards-Terry Bradway regime.


Nonetheless, the Jets are preparing to reduce Robertson's playing time.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/140796p-124885c.html

[The Spaz]

Nah we have the only busts in the league...lol:)!

[casdhf]

It usually takes DL a couple seasons to really develop, I think.

[Ingtar33]

hrmmm...

Does anyone have what i said about drafting D-linemen in the first round? (back before the draft)

it went something like this... Rookie d-linemen rarely make an impact of any sort in their first year. The notable exceptions are the players who often draw favorable comparisons to past NFL greats, like Javon Kearse or Julius Peppers.

Furthermore, DTs/DEs often take 3 to 5 years to develop in the nfl.

That’s why i don't call players like Kelsay, Denney, Bannon, or Edwards busts. That’s why i don't dismiss the comparison of Schobel to Jason Taylor (who have nearly identical career numbers at the same point in their third year), in fact Schobel has 3 sacks more than Taylor did at this point.

Remember last year, what i said about Edwards? I said he had the tools to become a serviceable to good DT in this league, he just needed two or three more years. I see flashes in Kelsay that say he'll be a good compliment to Schobel, and even the occasional signs of life from Denney.

D-linemen are tough to forecast well into the NFL, because the physical numbers often outweigh the actual on field production in scouts eyes. That’s how a genuinely non-productive, non-factor like Robinson could go at 4 overall. He wowed scouts with Sapp like numbers in his tryouts. That no-one bothered to notice he was a non-factor while on th field in college sort of surprised me.

To expect him to come in and produce at a high lvl his rookie year was a joke, and with all the snaps he's been getting he's been mediocre at best. With good coaching and some time he could develop into a good DT in 4 or 5 years.

remember folks, Moulds was a bust too his first 4 years. Some players just take longer to develop.

[clumping platelets]

Ingtar: Can you enlighten us about USC's Kenechi Udeze :)

[Ingtar33]

sure can...

Kenechi Udeze is probably the 2nd best DE in the draft this year (behind Will Smith), personally I like him better than Smith because in 3 or 4 years he could easily be the better of the two (I think Smith is close to his full potential now, where as Udeze is not)

He's big for a DE, at about 290ish, and has a fast first step, though i doubt he runs better than a 4.7... more likely in the 4.85 range.

He reminds me a bit of Richard Seymour, but i don't think he'll be a huge impact for a few years... he is sort of a "raw" player with sloppy technique.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
hrmmm...

Does anyone have what i said about drafting D-linemen in the first round? (back before the draft).


I do remember your lambasting the Jets for Robertson. I posted the article on the Jet's draft report card on our affiliate Gangreen.com, and I plan on digging it up t the end of this season.:snicker:

Has he played like a guy worth 2 first rounders?

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
sure can...

Kenechi Udeze is probably the 2nd best DE in the draft this year (behind Will Smith), personally I like him better than Smith because in 3 or 4 years he could easily be the better of the two (I think Smith is close to his full potential now, where as Udeze is not)

He's big for a DE, at about 290ish, and has a fast first step, though i doubt he runs better than a 4.7... more likely in the 4.85 range.

He reminds me a bit of Richard Seymour, but i don't think he'll be a huge impact for a few years... he is sort of a "raw" player with sloppy technique.


Withthat in mind, and keeping in mind the salary cap, and the makeup of this team- is drafting Will Smith the better option? By the time Udeze is ready, they will be dismantling this team (even if it's not as dramatic as 2001) due to the inevitable salary cap cycle.


Just for poops and giggles, we are drafting #8 in this year's draft and QB Rothesberger (sp), Safety Taylor, Will Smith, Udeze, or a big time WR like Roy or Roger Williams are available - who would you grab? Gallery will be gone, any OL you like?

[TigerJ]

I also remember, Ingtar, that you said the Bills would be better off not drafting William Joseph, something about him not being the type of DT Buffalo needed. At least with McGahee we knew we wouldn't be able to count on a contribution in 2003.

I'm sure we'll be asking you about a bunch of defensive linemen this year, Ingtar. Antwan Odom is another one. I think the general opinion of him is that physically he's talented, but technique wise is not at all refined. He'd need lots of work with a good position coach. Nathan Adibi, Jason Babin, Tommy Kelly, and Bobby McCray are some others I'll be following through the pre-draft meat market days.

[SoCalBillsFan]

Originally posted by clumping platelets
Ingtar: Can you enlighten us about USC's Kenechi Udeze :)

If I have my way, he'll stay another year! :D

[Ingtar33]

The trick with D-Linemen is production and physical tools... they both go into the "total package"

A lot of times teams only see one aspect, for example, Aaron Schobel was a fairly productive college player, his size was a bit on the small side, but he was fast. What ended up sinking him in th draft were two things.

1) he was seen as a pure speed rusher, with just one move
2) other than his 40 time, he showed nothing physically to the scouts in most his other physical drills.

As a result, they took his good production, his very good jump and threw them out the window (same thing happened to Jason Taylor)

Well we made out well as Schobel has rounded out into a very good DE, very solid against the run, and probably a productive 8-12 sack man for the rest of his career.

BTW: before anyone congratulates me too much on the DL prognosticating, I also said Kennedy was the best DT in the draft, and his weight problem was largely unimportant. Well Kennedy is sitting on he bench, and has turned out to be too lazy to work hard at getting off the bench.

Im much prouder about my lambasting the Bengals for picking Palmer over Leftwitch, as the talk out of cinci is Palmer’s been unable to grasp the cinci playbook, and as a result he couldn’t unseat the mediocre Kitna… where as Leftwitch needed just 3 regular season games to unseat Brunell, even though he had missed all of training camp due to a contract holdout.


Just for poops and giggles, we are drafting #8 in this year's draft and QB Rothesberger (sp), Safety Taylor, Will Smith, Udeze, or a big time WR like Roy or Roger Williams are available - who would you grab? Gallery will be gone, any OL you like?

well, most those players will be drafted... but if Roy Williams falls that far id draft him in a heartbeat. However... Roy Williams, Will Smith, and Rothesberger (i have no idea how to spell that either) will all be gone by the 8th pick (most likely). Assuming they're gone... I'd nab Sean Taylor in a heartbeat. He's a lock at being a Probowl FS for years to come in the NFL. Don’t forget what Brian Dawkins does for the eagles. He’ll be as good or even better.

[stuckincincy]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
The trick with D-Linemen is production and physical tools... they both go into the "total package"

Im much prouder about my lambasting the Bengals for picking Palmer over Leftwitch, as the talk out of cinci is Palmer’s been unable to grasp the cinci playbook, and as a result he couldn’t unseat the mediocre Kitna… where as Leftwitch needed just 3 regular season games to unseat Brunell, even though he had missed all of training camp due to a contract holdout.


After the rush in Cincy with David Klingler (funny pick in my mind) and again with Akili Smith (another funny one), there's a fair amount of trepidation here about rushing in yet another rookie QB. Hadn't heard anything abt. Palmer and playbook.

I think Kitna's doing a pretty good job. He's putting up pretty good numbers. I think he's "playing within his abilities", for whatever that can mean. He's taken all the snaps this year. An utilizing the TE's.

His running has been timely, usually straight up the middle when the pocket breaks down...and generally for 5 to 10 yards. Last year he had 4 rushing td's.

I think he's aslo smart...several times last year, and at least once this year, he hurried up the offense to get a snap off because he knew a replay might be coming.

PS: IMHO, LG Erik Steinback has been doing a tremendous job. Very good pass protection, pulls very well, and on the majority of run plays he gets well downfield to block.

He's the guy I really wanted the Bills to pick. I was elated when he fell to the Bill's position, and I was stunned about McGahee.

[Ingtar33]

Right now Leftwitch is a far superior QB to Kitner

[SoCalBillsFan]

Kitner or Kitna?

I think palmer willtake a little longer to learn the offense in the NFL. Took him till year 2 here before he learned Norm Chow's offense, and it was his fifth year in college when he really got good. But I think it's early to label him a bust. Leftwhich looked great tonight though....

also, I think the bengals are trying to make the playoffs and want to stick with a veteran, not throw the rookie in there. The jags season is over and the might as well let leftwhich learn. Its understandable why carson hasn't played yet.

[R. Rich]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
well, most those players will be drafted... but if Roy Williams falls that far id draft him in a heartbeat. However... Roy Williams, Will Smith, and Rothesberger (i have no idea how to spell that either) will all be gone by the 8th pick (most likely). Assuming they're gone... I'd nab Sean Taylor in a heartbeat. He's a lock at being a Probowl FS for years to come in the NFL. Don’t forget what Brian Dawkins does for the eagles. He’ll be as good or even better.

I think Taylor would be a great pick for us. He's a very talented player who could bring to our secondary what Ed Reed brings to Baltimore's, namely big play capability.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

There were a lot of people who have argued the fact that the Bills should have chosen the vaunted William Joseph in the first round last year. I guess we are just going to have to wait and see if the McGahee pick was worth it.