If you said we would have the top defense 3 years ago-

[Dozerdog]

3 Seasons ago we brought in Wishy Washy Williams based on his claim of building the #1 defense in the league.


Had you been told he would accomplish the feat in 3 seasons- would you have been happy?


Ironic that in his worst year- he is on the verge of delivering the top defense in the league.


Bills have sights on goal of being NFL's top defense (http://www.tennessean.com/sports/titans/archives/03/12/43485183.shtml?Element_ID=43485183)


The Buffalo Bills are 5-7 and the playoffs are little more than a pipe dream, but Coach Gregg Williams has dangled a noteworthy goal in front of his team.

''Our defense is chasing that mythical No. 1 defense,'' Williams said. ''I've been a part of that before with Tennessee, and we're close, we'd like to see that happen.''

None of Buffalo's final four opponents have an offense ranked in the top 10. The Titans were 11th heading into last night's game, the Jets 18th, the Patriots 16th, the Dolphins 26th.

''We're so close to being the type of defense we want to be, being the No. 1 defense,'' Bills linebacker Takeo Spikes said. ''Being dominant ... That's what we're fighting for, to be the No. 1 defense by the end of the season.''

They have some work to do. The Bills are currently ranked third, allowing 271.6 yards per game.

[stuckincincy]

Disagree. Defense is purported to win games. Cause turn-overs. And U can always look good in the def. rankings when your off. messes up and gives the def. a short field to defend.

They are not bad, but this is a 5 and 7 team. That gave up 30 pts to the Jets and 30+ to the Chiefs.

They have no depth whatsoever. Maybe Stamer, Wire, McGee but that's it IMO.

Typical GW speil...or spew.

[Historian]

So it took us three years to go from the third rated defense in the league to the third rated defense in the league?

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Billsology
So it took us three years to go from the third rated defense in the league to the third rated defense in the league?

You thought of that too, huh? :chuckle:

[HenryRules]

I wouldn't put us as a top-10 defense right now.

We're about 10-15, but they'll have to play better when the game is on the line to be a top-10 defense.

[caveboy]

Loaded question Doze, but first:

"Defense is purported to win games."

Agree too. This is a very solid, GOOD, not great, defense. We are now rarely giving up big plays constantly like we used to, (like Mary Collins TD pass Sunday). But...having said that, to be great, this defense needs to score at will. The same opening day performance vs. NE that we saw. Not only stopping drives and forcing 3-and-outs, but going the extra mile and both causing turnovers, then converting them into points on the same play. (Fumble recovery, INT for TDs, etc.)

We do that on a regular basis, then were #1 and can be considered great. That, and stop freakin finhead Ricky Williams from running all over us.

Back to the point of the thread - I'd have to say that the RESULT may be close at hand, but how he got there was not the way he said we would. I've rarely seen mulitple blitz schemes with pressure constantly on opposing QBs. Most of the blitzes are disguised and come off the ends, but inconsistantly IMO.

The speed rushes from the outside he talked about with multiple substitution packages have been non-existant, (granted, that could be traced to lack of personnel, but not all of is due to that).

I also think the great D we are approaching has been offset by the lackluster offensive performance we are seeing, not to mention the lack of discipline he said he'd instill. Jennings seems to be getting disciplined, NOT.

I also give Gray as much credit for the D. If we are going to tear KG a new one because the O is tanking, but GW escapes criticism, why should GW then get all the credit for the D, you know? The co-ordinators need to both be responsible for the good and bad. So I'm lumping GW in with KG for the offensive offence. GW could override him anytime IMO.

[Turf]

If Lebeau wasn't here, we'd be even worse. Meaning GW has repeatedly failed at every aspect of hiring a coaching staff.

[Scott]

This D may not give up alot of yards or points but they do not seem to be able to get a stop or create a turnover when they really need one (ie: the Indy game).

[Historian]

Originally posted by Scott
This D may not give up alot of yards or points but they do not seem to be able to get a stop or create a turnover when they really need one (ie: the Indy game).

This is a classic Buffalo defense. Bend, but don't break, with very few turnovers, but also very few big plays made against it. It reminds me of Wade's '95 defense, and Zeman's '83 defense. It makes a good case for trying to keep Winfield.

I'm still waiting for the 4-6 defense that Gregg promised us on 2/1/01!!!!

[Patrick76777]

You people are WAY too cynical!

What does this team have to do? 5 weeks ago I told all of you that we have the number 3 defense in yardage. You all told me that yardage doesn’t matter, only points. So after last weekend, we’re also number 3 in points, now that doesn’t matter, it’s the Turnovers! Bizarre!

It’s just another example of my theory that we as fans have become way too overly critical of our sports teams.

This defense is playing LIGHTS OUT! Opponents are averaging 11.5 points a game over the last 4 weeks. 11.5 That’s ridiculous. An average of a touchdown and 2 FG’s will win you each of those games. Are offense should be able to do that. Over the course of the whole season are D is giving up an average of 16.1 points per game. Which means on average that our Offense only needs to score 17 points to win a game. This is the NFL, teams are going to score on any defense on occasion! The year Baltimore won the Superbowl, Jacksonville put up 36 points on them.

Hell, besides for the NY and KC game we’re giving up an average of 12.6 points in the other 10 games.


People, it’s OK to admit that the defense is playing well! Very well! I see it as a sign of very good things to come.


Jesus, I was driving home listening to Jerry Sullivan the other day. The guy from the Buffalo news! He’s the most negative guy ever on that Monday radio show and he was loving this defense.

[caveboy]

"Which means on average that our Offense only needs to score 17 points to win a game."

Yeah, but the problem is we ain't putting up the 2-3 TDs a game we need. The Ravens in their SB year held teams to 10 or less I believe. But as average as Dilfer was, he consistantly helped them get the 2 TDs a game they needed.

I think we aren;t that cycnical, it's just that when someone says we have a great D, we differ on what the difference between good and great really is. We're close, but we're not there – yet. Yeah we shut opponents down, but we still let teams back in with the prevent.

Good, but not great – yet.

[Patrick76777]

It's only because we watch it every week. And analyze every single day. Yet we only see the hi-lights and stats of the Miami and Dallas and Denver defense so we all think that they have the fastest and strongest defenses in the NFL! Yet their fans are saying the same thing that we are.


Let’s face it, this defense is good enough to be in the playoffs. And maybe if the offense would have showed up in the Miami, Dallas and Houston game, we’d be in position to be in the playoffs.

[Jan Reimers]

The D has played well, with the exception of complete meltdowns against KC and the Jets, and less than stellar 4th quarter performances against Miami, Philly, and Indy. But that's too many exceptions to consider this a superior defense.

[Jan Reimers]

... But it's a good D that, combined with a decent offense, could have gotten us into the playoffs.

[justasportsfan]

Although the D has improved , the O took a nose dive. Even w/ a no. 1 D (if it happens) I would base our entire performance on where we're at at the end of the season.

Imagine this, a no.1 D and still no playoff appearance. No thanks GW, I'm not buying into what you're trying to sell. I'd rather have a 20th ranked D with a playoff appearance.

[HenryRules]

I personally think that if you swap our D with about 10 other D's in the NFL, we're a 6-6 team.

I think we would still win the NE, Jax, Cincy, Washington, and Giants games, but would have won one of either Indy or Philly with a different D.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by caveboy
"Which means on average that our Offense only needs to score 17 points to win a game."

Yeah, but the problem is we ain't putting up the 2-3 TDs a game we need. The Ravens in their SB year held teams to 10 or less I believe. But as average as Dilfer was, he consistantly helped them get the 2 TDs a game they needed.
.


The Ravens also went 5 consecutive games without a TD that season as well.
<PRE>
<h2>Game-by-game results</h2><PRE>
+--------+-------------------------------+----------+---------+
| Week | Opponent | Result | Score |
+--------+-------------------------------+----------+---------+
| 1 | at <A HREF="../teams/pit2000.htm">Pittsburgh Steelers</A> | W | 16- 0 |
| 2 | <A HREF="../teams/jax2000.htm">Jacksonville Jaguars</A> | W | 39-36 |
| 3 | at <A HREF="../teams/mia2000.htm">Miami Dolphins</A> | L | 6-19 |
| 4 | <A HREF="../teams/cin2000.htm">Cincinnati Bengals</A> | W | 37- 0 |<B>
| 5 | at <A HREF="../teams/cle2000.htm">Cleveland Browns</A> | W | 12- 0 |
| 6 | at <A HREF="../teams/jax2000.htm">Jacksonville Jaguars</A> | W | 15-10 |
| 7 | at <A HREF="../teams/was2000.htm">Washington Redskins</A> | L | 3-10 |
| 8 | <A HREF="../teams/oti2000.htm">Tennessee Titans</A> | L | 6-14 |
| 9 | <A HREF="../teams/pit2000.htm">Pittsburgh Steelers</A> | L | 6- 9 |</B>
| 10 | at <A HREF="../teams/cin2000.htm">Cincinnati Bengals</A> | W | 27- 7 |
| 11 | at <A HREF="../teams/oti2000.htm">Tennessee Titans</A> | W | 24-23 |
| 12 | <A HREF="../teams/dal2000.htm">Dallas Cowboys</A> | W | 27- 0 |
| 13 | <A HREF="../teams/cle2000.htm">Cleveland Browns</A> | W | 44- 7 |
| 14 | BYE WEEK |
| 15 | <A HREF="../teams/sdg2000.htm">San Diego Chargers</A> | W | 24- 3 |
| 16 | at <A HREF="../teams/crd2000.htm">Arizona Cardinals</A> | W | 13- 7 |
| 17 | <A HREF="../teams/nyj2000.htm">New York Jets</A> | W | 34-20 |
+--------+-------------------------------+----------+---------+
</PRE>

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Patrick76777
An average of a touchdown and 2 FG’s will win you each of those games.

That is a very misleading statement.

We scored 14 points against the Colts (more than a TD and 2 FG's) and we lost.

[imbondz]

the unfulfilled potential on this team is staggering

[stuckincincy]

Originally posted by imbondz
the unfulfilled potential on this team is staggering

For the starters. If Buffalo suffered the def. injuries that the pats and eagles experienced, look out mama. Weak, weak bench.

Time for a house cleaning. GW and KG, we know they'll be booted.

[Patrick76777]

Originally posted by HenryRules


That is a very misleading statement.

We scored 14 points against the Colts (more than a TD and 2 FG's) and we lost.


Which is why I said AVERAGE!

if we average 17 points a game!

Do you know what AVERAGE means?

[Patrick76777]

Originally posted by stuckincincy


For the starters. If Buffalo suffered the def. injuries that the pats and eagles experienced, look out mama. Weak, weak bench.

Time for a house cleaning. GW and KG, we know they'll be booted.


Now we're starting with the IF's!

[Dozerdog]

We don't shut out the opponent each week, Pat- we suck

[Patrick76777]

I really don't understand the argument that a defense is not only supposed to hold teams down in points but now they're supposed to single-handedly win the game in order to be considered good.

[BuffaloRanger]

Turnovers and Sacks mean alot. If you hold teams down in points and yards and are middle of the pack in TOs and sacks that's one thing.

But the Bills are last in both TOs and sacks. LAST. That sucks any way you look at it. A Def can't be considered great if it is last in those 2 critical areas.

Solid? Yes. Good? Yes. Great? Dominant? No. No.

[HenryRules]

I don't understand how you can dispute that we would have a better record with more than a handful of other defenses and the same record with 5 or so more.

If we'd have the same record or better with many other defenses, I don't see what's so great about ours?

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Patrick76777



Which is why I said AVERAGE!

if we average 17 points a game!

Do you know what AVERAGE means?

Yes I do ... but you missed my point that our defense always seems to end up allowing that one extra field goal or TD that causes us to lose.


That is why our offense actually has to get a minimum (not average) of 20 points in order for us to win.

I base my number on actual games that have been won or lost ... you base yours on expectations that our defense would have allowed the exact same amount of points regardless of how many our offense scored, which is a risky assumption considering that the other teams playcalling will change dramatically if they are trailing versus leading and ignoring our defense's ability to come up with a big stop at the end of the 4th quarter.

So again, your statement is very misleading.

[Dozerdog]

So If we gave up a FG a week, and finished the year 0-16 losing 3-0 every week, the defense would stink?


Everything is tied to everything. Our offense can't move the Ball. Other teams know this. They employ the same strategy the Cowboys used- just don't mess up.

When we are not a threat to score, teams will be ultra-conservative in their playcalling. They won't air it out because they don't need to. Teams know all they have to do is play the field position game and they will win a very dull game.

I can only think of a handful of games where we forced teams to play catch up- and we did generate turnovers in those games- Patriots, Giants, Redskins.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
So If we gave up a FG a week, and finished the year 0-16 losing 3-0 every week, the defense would stink?


Everything is tied to everything. Our offense can't move the Ball. Other teams know this. They employ the same strategy the Cowboys used- just don't mess up.

When we are not a threat to score, teams will be ultra-conservative in their playcalling. They won't air it out because they don't need to. Teams know all they have to do is play the field position game and they will win a very dull game.

I can only think of a handful of games where we forced teams to play catch up- and we did generate turnovers in those games- Patriots, Giants, Redskins.

No, our defense wouldn't stink if we lost every game 3-0 ... however, that's not what has happened so I don't see your point.

As I have said, and no one has disputed, with about 6 or 7 other D's, we'd have an improved record. With about a handful more, we'd have the same record. How can we say our D is better than any of those defenses?

[The_Philster]

So how much is the defense allowed to allow? :scratch:

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The_Philster
So how much is the defense allowed to allow? :scratch:

When have I said anything related to points allowed?

If we'd have a better record with a different defense, then that defense is better than ours. To me that's a pretty simple statement that is irrefutable.

Please tell me the flaw.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by HenryRules
When have I said anything related to points allowed?

If we'd have a better record with a different defense, then that defense is better than ours. To me that's a pretty simple statement that is irrefutable.

Please tell me the flaw.

The flaw is that there is more than the defense as part of the equation. Your argument doesn't sound much different than the argument that the QB is the only one responsible. In the case of that, the QB gets all the credit and all of the blame. In the case of your ideas, it sounds like it's all up to the defense. What happens if the defense is forced to play 2/3 of the game? Or if the opponents constantly get excellent drive starts?

[Dozerdog]

We allow well under 17 points most weeks. Unfortunately, because we seem to give up the 12th or 17th point late in a game, we have a crappy defense.

Not because our Offense is the lowest scoring in the league. If we could average what the "Powerhouse" Texans or Chargers (17-19 points per game) this would be a 500 club easy- probably 7-5 or so. If we averaged what we did last season- we would be 8-4 or 9-3

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by HenryRules
When have I said anything related to points allowed?

If we'd have a better record with a different defense, then that defense is better than ours. To me that's a pretty simple statement that is irrefutable.

Please tell me the flaw.

I think with 27 or 28 other defenses- this team would have a worse record- and the margin of our defeats would be much, much wider.

We lose 12-10 games now. With most other defenses, we woulld lose 24-10, 27-10 each week

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The_Philster


The flaw is that there is more than the defense as part of the equation. Your argument doesn't sound much different than the argument that the QB is the only one responsible. In the case of that, the QB gets all the credit and all of the blame. In the case of your ideas, it sounds like it's all up to the defense. What happens if the defense is forced to play 2/3 of the game? Or if the opponents constantly get excellent drive starts?

I'm not saying it's all up to the defense at all ... that is why I only think that with a handful of defenses we'd have a better record than our own instead of with each of the 20 defenses that have won games with limited offensive support (again, that's 2/3 of the league, not one or two).

Your arguments make pretty much the exact same assumptions ... what happens if the other team has no faith in our offense, what if the other team is always kneeling and killing off the last 2 minutes of their possession ... there's a variety of what-if's that can make our defense's stats appear better than they may deserve.

[Halbert]

Bills Defense:
- 3rd in total yards allowed
- 3rd in points allowed, 0.3 points behind co-leaders TB and Miami
- 3rd in pass yardage allowed
- 7th in rush yardage allowed per game
- 5th hardest schedule in the league of opposing offenses
- On a team with a pathetic offense that continually leaves them hanging



I wouldn't put us as a top-10 defense right now.

Welcome to CrazyWorld.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Dozerdog


I think with 27 or 28 other defenses- this team would have a worse record- and the margin of our defeats would be much, much wider.


Really? There's many defenses that could have won if we had scored 31 against NE, 38 against Jax, 24 against Wash, 24 against NYG, and 22 against Cincy. Yes, there's about 25 different offenses that we'd have a better record with as well ... but I really don't think there's too many defenses that we'd have a worse record with.


We lose 12-10 games now. With most other defenses, we woulld lose 24-10, 27-10 each week

Who cares?

[HenryRules]

This is getting repetitive and pointless ... I'm going to agree to disagree and stop posting on this topic.

[Brian Griese Rulz]

Originally posted by Halbert
Bills Defense:
- 3rd in total yards allowed
- 3rd in points allowed, 0.3 points behind co-leaders TB and Miami
- 3rd in pass yardage allowed
- 7th in rush yardage allowed per game
- 5th hardest schedule in the league of opposing offenses
- On a team with a pathetic offense that continually leaves them hanging


-32nd in takeaways (13)
-18th in sacks (take away the miracle 6 Sacks against the crappy Giants O-line and the ranking would be 26th)
-Can't find the stat. for QB pressured. Im sure the Bills would be near last in that too.

I'd rather have the Rams Defense (36 Takeaways), KC's D (32), Miami's D (30), Tampa's D (28), NE's D (27), Ravens D (27), Titians D (26), then the Bills D.

Bend but don't break defense is boring. And we had that D for 4 straight Super Bowls and Im tired of it.

[helmetguy]

Yeah, Henry, there's room for improvement. How is, "if we had a different this or that" even relevant? Where we are ranked in those statistical areas are completely reliant on what we have done. It would be much more relevant to post about what this TEAM may have done with a better offense. Hell, think about it. Had we been playing from the lead more often, it would follow that the D could have been even MORE aggressive and opportunistic. The sacks and turnovers would be the likely outcome. This is a damned good defense getting better.

[Halbert]

Originally posted by Brian Griese Rulz
-32nd in takeaways (13)
-18th in sacks (take away the miracle 6 Sacks against the crappy Giants O-line and the ranking would be 26th)
-Can't find the stat. for QB pressured. Im sure the Bills would be near last in that too.

If you could only pick one of these for your defensive unit which would it be? How much importance would you say it has over the other ones?

A. 3rd in the league in takeaways.
B. 3rd in the league in sacks.
C. 3rd in the league in QB pressures.
D. 3rd in the league in points allowed.


I'd rather have the Rams Defense (36 Takeaways), KC's D (32), Miami's D (30), Tampa's D (28), NE's D (27), Ravens D (27), Titians D (26), then the Bills D.
This one really gives you away.

The Rams and Chiefs, and to a lesser extent Tennessee (DB’s) have average defenses that look better than they are because of strong offenses. All you have to do is watch them play to tell the difference. If I’m picking a fantasy team I’d agree with you, but that’s not how you distinguish a good defense in live play.

[Brian Griese Rulz]

I'd pick takeaways. Would be nice for our offense to have the ball 23 more times.

And like everyone says, win the turnover battle you'll win the game.

[Dozerdog]

That would be 23 more punts for Mo0rman!

[caveboy]

Dozer: interesting look at Ravens loses, which look eerily like ours in some cases. They only put up 6 or so at times, while opponents put up slightly more. Even with that TD drought (sp), they were able to get it back on track.

Overall, the most important stat in ranking D is points allowed – versus points your O scores. If you told me we'd give up 300-400 total yards EVERY game and 28 points, but our O could put up a steady 5 TD's a game? Then I'd take it.

I don't care if we lead the league in limiting opponents total yardage, or sacks, or pressures. If we score more than we allow, that's all we need. Before Dred-so was signed, we were close in points allowed vs. scored. Our points allowed was 21 while points scored was 19, on average. All we would have to do the next year is either stop one less TD on D or score one more on O. Not a big order to fill with the signing of Drew - or so we thought.


"win the turnover battle you'll win the game."

For the most part, but look at Matrz/Warner in St. Louis when that O was clicking during SB run. Warner threw a lot of INTs, but their attitude was 'so what', since they were scoring so much, it didn't matter.

Marv was a turnover fanatic who preeched what you said about winning that battle.

[Patrick76777]

Originally posted by Brian Griese Rulz



-18th in sacks (take away the miracle 6 Sacks against the crappy Giants O-line and the ranking would be 26th)



LMAO! LMAO!!!!!!! OMG!!! LMAO!!!


So can we take away the sacks for every other team that had a big day?

For example the Jets had 7 sacks against us last time. we played like crap that day, so let's take those 7 sacks away from the jets. We'll do this with every team and see where we rank. That'll make more sense then just looking at the stats as they are.

[Rude American]

Originally posted by imbondz
the unfulfilled potential on this team is staggering

Bad coaching, plain and simple.

[Patrick76777]

Originally posted by HenryRules




I base my number on actual games that have been won or lost ... you base yours on expectations that our defense would have allowed the exact same amount of points regardless of how many our offense scored, which is a risky assumption considering that the other teams playcalling will change dramatically if they are trailing versus leading and ignoring our defense's ability to come up with a big stop at the end of the 4th quarter.



So you're saying that had our offense played better, the other teams would play more aggressively and would have scored more points on our average defense?


So Dallas was so happy and comfortable with their 4-point lead, they decided to play conservatively for 90% of that game.

And same with Houston, they were so happy with their 12-8 lead that they didn’t need to score anymore points.

The Colts, who I’m sure you know have a great offense, needed to score 2 TD’s in the final 10 minutes to win. I think they did the same thing to Tampa Bay at one point. Didn’t they? Maybe if we had added one more TD in the second half!

And well sure the Giants were down 24-7, but they gave up, so that game doesn’t count.

[Brian Griese Rulz]

Originally posted by Patrick76777

So can we take away the sacks for every other team that had a big day?


You know as well as I do that the pass rush this year his sucked.

[Patrick76777]

Originally posted by Brian Griese Rulz


You know as well as I do that the pass rush this year his sucked.


I didn't say that, but you're trying to take away our best game in that dept. in order to prove your point. We're not the only team to pile up sacks in one game. It's a weak arguement!

[Dozerdog]

Take away the longest runs and.....it's a proven methodology Patrick

[Patrick76777]

Take away our biggest loss and we're 5-6 right now!

[Brian Griese Rulz]

Without taking away anything the Bills are still ranked 18th in sacks. That is unacceptable.

[Halbert]

FYI - The Bills D now ranks first in yards allowed and second in points allowed.

[Halbert]

Correction: the Bills rank second in yards allowed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=team&sort=ppg&pos=def&league=nfl&season=2&year=2003

[Dozerdog]

Interesting- Miami is teetering, and the Bills & Bucs are allmost out completely- as a matter of fact, Only 3 of the top 10 are going to the playoffs, with maybe 1 other one going (Denver OR Miami)

[juice]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Interesting- Miami is teetering, and the Bills & Bucs are allmost out completely- as a matter of fact, Only 3 of the top 10 are going to the playoffs, with maybe 1 other one going (Denver OR Miami)

And they say defense wins championships, Last week was the first game I can say the blitz schemes worked and better against the Jets, They'll need to be hot to contain Mcnair. ACC