Labeau stealing Grays' light

[juice]

Gray has the "D" playing top 3 ball why is Labeau getting Soo much credit for his contribution when his blitz schemes didn't have much effect until the Giants game? ACC Basketball

[IHateTheDullphins]

Gray has been getting all the credit, bro. DL and Gray have a great working relationship. There has been some articles on the net about Gray and how well he is doing, one even suggests that he may be a candidate for HC.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by juice
Gray has the "D" playing top 3 ball why is Labeau getting Soo much credit for his contribution when his blitz schemes didn't have much effect until the Giants game? ACC Basketball I'm not sold on Gray- his defenses stunk the previous 2 seasons- he tried to implement a defense in which we did not have the talent to run. Instead of simplifying it, he still stuck to a 46 defense that continually got torched.

[Dozerdog]

LeBeau got here and fixedup a lot of problems. I'd have to see Gray do it on his own before I'm sold on him

[IHateTheDullphins]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
LeBeau got here and fixedup a lot of problems. I'd have to see Gray do it on his own before I'm sold on him

I agree:up:

[juice]

Originally posted by IHateTheDullphins
Gray has been getting all the credit, bro. DL and Gray have a great working relationship. There has been some articles on the net about Gray and how well he is doing, one even suggests that he may be a candidate for HC.

I dont think it will happen as far as HC, He'll hit the same obstacles as Cottrell, and he had alot more support for HC than Gray. A year or two ago many were calling for his head. What happens with a staff turnover, that could be why this defense is playing soo well, they want to secure his job.

[BillsNick]

This might be why keeping GW but dumping KG would be the best overall option for us. The major problem is KG.

[juice]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
I'm not sold on Gray- his defenses stunk the previous 2 seasons- he tried to implement a defense in which we did not have the talent to run. Instead of simplifying it, he still stuck to a 46 defense that continually got torched.

The team stunk those two years, bring in the talent we got the results. Poor London Fletcher, I thought those blocking fullbacks were going to end his career last year. He should have adjusted for talent level but the Zone Blitz has come up short and Posey has almost disappeared in pass rushing.

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by juice


The team stunk those two years, bring in the talent we got the results. Poor London Fletcher, I thought those blocking fullbacks were going to end his career last year. He should have adjusted for talent level but the Zone Blitz has come up short and Posey has almost disappeared in pass rushing.

We had the best lb's in the league last Sunday. Fletch, Spikes and Posey were all over the field. With a stud DE, this D could carry the team to the sb just like the ravens if the O decides to run of course.

[juice]

Posey was bought in as a Pass Rushing specialists, a Sackman, if he were playing that role DE play may not have hurt us as much earlier in the year. Shoebel is balling now and we seem to be blitzing 5'10 Fletcher who can be handled by any blocking FB or RB. ACC

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by juice
Posey was bought in as a Pass Rushing specialists, a Sackman, if he were playing that role DE play may not have hurt us as much earlier in the year. Shoebel is balling now and we seem to be blitzing 5'10 Fletcher who can be handled by any blocking FB or RB. ACC

thing is , he isn't being used as a pass rush . for what we are paying Posey I say he's a good pick-up.

[BillsNick]

I like Posey, he's made some good plays for us this year (quietly).

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by BillsNick
This might be why keeping GW but dumping KG would be the best overall option for us. The major problem is KG.

Why give Williams a third chance to hire the wrong OC?

[kill4bills]

gray never had the talent he has this year. lokk at what the bengals are doing now with worse talent than they had last year with lebeau. lebeau is helping but dont make him the HC or evenDC unless we want to be the laughing stock of the league

[BillsNick]

Originally posted by Dozerdog


Why give Williams a third chance to hire the wrong OC?

I think that it's the lesser of two evils.

1- We dump GW and KG. New HC is hired, he intern overhauls the staff. The staff implements their new schemes and ideas. This worries me because, while this could still work out in the future, these things tend to disrupt team chemistry and cohesiveness.

2-We keep the staff mostly intact, except for KG, he's a goner. We bring in a new OC or promote someone frome within the ranks (Les Steckle) thereby maintaining the chemistry formed in this year, and keeping us on track for a big 04' season.

[juice]

Originally posted by BillsNick
I like Posey, he's made some good plays for us this year (quietly).

I've never heard of Quiet defense. Posey was bought in to be a disruptive force.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by BillsNick
I think that it's the lesser of two evils.

1- We dump GW and KG. New HC is hired, he intern overhauls the staff. The staff implements their new schemes and ideas. This worries me because, while this could still work out in the future, these things tend to disrupt team chemistry and cohesiveness.

2-We keep the staff mostly intact, except for KG, he's a goner. We bring in a new OC or promote someone frome within the ranks (Les Steckle) thereby maintaining the chemistry formed in this year, and keeping us on track for a big 04' season.

I think this system does need a complete overhaul. It doesn't work.

A new guy with a new offense will do just fine- keep it simple if you have to the first year.

While I don't think it will take 2 years to impliment a new system- even if it did It would be better than wasting 2004 in the hands of yet another Williams mistake at OC.

[Dozerdog]

Look at Tampa Bay- they brought in Gruden- a completely different and much more complex offense than what they ran before- and they went to a super bowl.

[BAM]

No matter what, whoever is taking or stealing this "Light" deserves it! :D

:gobills: :gobills: :gobills:

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by juice
I've never heard of Quiet defense. Posey was bought in to be a disruptive force.

Only problem with that idea is that hev played in a 3-4 in Houston. If anyone thinks he would have the same kind of performance in a 4-3, I want whatever they're smoking. :D

[HenryRules]

why is it considered a given that a new coach will overhaul the staff?

Parcells left most of the D coaches in Dallas.

I think Gruden left most of the D coaches in TBay.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by HenryRules
why is it considered a given that a new coach will overhaul the staff?

Parcells left most of the D coaches in Dallas.

I think Gruden left most of the D coaches in TBay.
I don't think it's a given either. The new coach will come in, look over the staff, and keep who he wants and dump who he doesn't. It wasn't that many but Williams kept a few coaches off of Wade's staff

[juice]

Originally posted by The_Philster
Only problem with that idea is that hev played in a 3-4 in Houston. If anyone thinks he would have the same kind of performance in a 4-3, I want whatever they're smoking. :D

With the talent around him and with the blitz schemes DL was bringing in I hoped for double digit sacks and or alot of QB pressures. For pressure to be his specialty it just seems like he's underacheiving. I also feel like with the athletes on the corners we should bring more corner blitzes in the schemes.

[The_Philster]

The SLB in a 4-3 has a lot more coverage responsibilities than an SLB in a 3-4 and LeBeau's schemes weren't always seen. Remember Bryce Paup? He was a monster in a 3-4 but when we switched to the 4-3 his numbers tailed off drastically. Part of that is due to the fact he was dealing with a groin injury...and part of it is due to the fact that he spent a lot more time in coverage. They let him escape via free agency because of that and the price he was asking. Sam Rogers never put up the kind of sack numbers that Bryce did, but he was much more effective in coverage.

[juice]

I guess my problem is more with coverage schemes, just seems to me like were not playing towards his ability to cause havoc even though he has been active in coverage and tackles.

[juice]

Fletcher should shadow Mcnair, Spikes drop into coverage, and bring Posey to make Mcnair move around on that bad wheel. After his MRI it sounds like it might limit movement. Ga Tech #10 and counting

[juice]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Look at Tampa Bay- they brought in Gruden- a completely different and much more complex offense than what they ran before- and they went to a super bowl.

Our situation in Buffalo reminds me alot of TB, with a dominate defense and a struggleing offense. Adjustments not an overhaul is needed in our situation. Md defeats #1 Fla

[helmetguy]

I don't get it, juice. One minute, you're saying our defense is either over rated or overachieving, and criticizing guys like Posey for not having enough sacks. Next, you're saying we have a dominant defense with a struggling offense. Which is it? Better yet, do you even know what the hell you're talking about?

[juice]

Originally posted by helmetguy
I don't get it, juice. One minute, you're saying our defense is either over rated or overachieving, and criticizing guys like Posey for not having enough sacks. Next, you're saying we have a dominant defense with a struggling offense. Which is it? Better yet, do you even know what the hell you're talking about?

Is overacheiving a bad thing? Do you know what the hell you are talking about? Dont let you being a Bills fan dictate your opinion. I am also a fanatic but that doesnt keep me from feeling good and bad about my team, and expressing my opinion. ACC

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by juice
Is overacheiving a bad thing? Do you know what the hell you are talking about? Dont let you being a Bills fan dictate your opinion. I am also a fanatic but that doesnt keep me from feeling good and bad about my team, and expressing my opinion. ACC
overachieving is a good thing. Over rated is a bad thing. You saying you can't make up your mind?

[socalfan]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Look at Tampa Bay- they brought in Gruden- a completely different and much more complex offense than what they ran before- and they went to a super bowl.

The Tampa players claimed not much changed when Gruden came in, which seems reasonable to me. Even the offense wasn't much different. The pass routes were a little shorter.

[juice]

Defensive play will be key against the Titans,

[Ingtar33]

The 46 is rarely played anymore this year...

We look like we're playing a 3-4/46 hybrid... quite odd to see... there is a lot of basic 4-3, and then some formations that could only be called 3-4 if Schobel was a LB, then formations that look like a 46... mixed with the old 5-2 scheme...

The D playbook we use is huge, and the amount of pure 46 we play is quite small (10% of the plays... maybe 4 or 6 snaps a game)...

Most of the formations we use now, were not used last year, it looks to me like 75-80% of what we're using now is brand new as of this year... and those zone blitzes we're using have been getting good pressure and causing havoc all year... these last two weeks are the only two where a lot of sacks have resulted...

As to what I would do for next year?

Fire Gregg, hire LeBeau, fire Gilbride, promote Steckle

Gruden is the first coach in NFL history to win the superbowl in his first year as coach of a football team (i think).

[juice]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
The 46 is rarely played anymore this year...

We look like we're playing a 3-4/46 hybrid... quite odd to see... there is a lot of basic 4-3, and then some formations that could only be called 3-4 if Schobel was a LB, then formations that look like a 46... mixed with the old 5-2 scheme...

The D playbook we use is huge, and the amount of pure 46 we play is quite small (10% of the plays... maybe 4 or 6 snaps a game)...

Most of the formations we use now, were not used last year, it looks to me like 75-80% of what we're using now is brand new as of this year... and those zone blitzes we're using have been getting good pressure and causing havoc all year... these last two weeks are the only two where a lot of sacks have resulted...

As to what I would do for next year?

Fire Gregg, hire LeBeau, fire Gilbride, promote Steckle

Gruden is the first coach in NFL history to win the superbowl in his first year as coach of a football team (i think).

What about Fire Greg, hire Gray, fire Gilbride, promote Steckle?

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by juice
What about Fire Greg, hire Gray, fire Gilbride, promote Steckle?
Gray hasn't done anything without having his hand held by LeBeau :cynic:

[juice]

We just bought the talent in for Gray to work with, the only thing Lebeau did was hand deliver Spikes. The zone blitz has had limited sucess as evident by pOSEY'S LACK of QB sacks and pressure.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by juice
We just bought the talent in for Gray to work with, the only thing Lebeau did was hand deliver Spikes. The zone blitz has had limited sucess as evident by pOSEY'S LACK of QB sacks and pressure.

The Zone blitz comes from more places than the SLB spot for one thing.
Terence McGee, Lawyer Milloy, Antoine Winfield and Kevin Thomas are all players who wouldn't be getting sacks without blitzes.
And I've said it before and I'll say it one more time. SLB's in a 4-3 scheme rarely get high sack numbers. They have coverage responsibilities in the 4-3 that they wouldn't have as much of in the 3-4.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by juice
We just bought the talent in for Gray to work with, the only thing Lebeau did was hand deliver Spikes. The zone blitz has had limited sucess as evident by pOSEY'S LACK of QB sacks and pressure.

Limited success were No.2 in the league it has to be causing some confusion. Besides our team has been really getting after the QB the last few weeks and I think the zone blitz has a lot to do with it.

[juice]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Limited success were No.2 in the league it has to be causing some confusion. Besides our team has been really getting after the QB the last few weeks and I think the zone blitz has a lot to do with it.

I dont see the corners or safeties involved in the blitz schemes very often either as athletic as they are and how good they tackle. Blitz schemes have been more effective in the last few weeks, might be a little too late but lets hope not. The only reason I mention Posey is because pass rush was his specialty and now its pass coverage.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by juice
The only reason I mention Posey is because pass rush was his specialty and now its pass coverage.

They put him at SLB. That goes with the job in the 4-3. Bryce Paup had to go into coverage more when we went to the 3-4 and look how his numbers dropped. Sure part of it was due to the groin injury and the fact that teams became more aware of him, but when your job requires you to do something.......

[juice]

With the free agents bought in Gray could have got the job done, if you look at the addition of lebeau and his blitz schemes which have'nt caused many more sacks than last year, and cause less interceptions with not much more QB pressure. Keep in mind the difference in talent.

[juice]

Gray will have the chance to run the show, not having to look over his shoulder at LeBeau will make him a more effective DC.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
I'm not sold on Gray- his defenses stunk the previous 2 seasons- he tried to implement a defense in which we did not have the talent to run. Instead of simplifying it, he still stuck to a 46 defense that continually got torched.

did you pay attention to the defense for the second half of the 2002 season?

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by Tatonka


did you pay attention to the defense for the second half of the 2002 season?

That's a huge point. I said the same to a friend of mine. The D was already on the rise and doing pretty well when Lebeau got here. Not to say he didn't help improve it in '03, but I think as long as the players *want* Gray, the D is good to go. Well, good to go if they can get a #@$^% pass rusher on the other side of Schoebel.

And IMO, get Wire back out there. He got unlucky with Milloy coming in, but maybe he can transition to FS and replace Prioleau? (who I think is very, very average at best). Yeah, I know...Wire's strengths are a great engine and hits like a truck...the things you want in a SS. But I think Wire has a huge upside nonetheless. He just needs to learn the game a bit more so that he doesn't get burned as much as he did. Safeties really need to know how to read the play more than most others on the D imo, since they have choose which way to roll...and if they are wrong....points are typically the end result.

[hemi13]

I agree with The_Philster.

[hemi13]

Originally posted by hemi13
I agree with The_Philster.

:cheers:

[juice]

This "D" is a D-end and better safety play from being #1 now that we have a single DC and not by committee. Too much coaching can be detrimental to forming a cohesive unit.

[juice]

Originally posted by kill4bills
gray never had the talent he has this year. lokk at what the bengals are doing now with worse talent than they had last year with lebeau. lebeau is helping but dont make him the HC or evenDC unless we want to be the laughing stock of the league

We're better off with Gray. I think this "D" excells under Gray next season, and thats without answers to Safety, End, and corner positions.

[Drewpac]

I really don't think either guy was that great. The biggest difference was that we brought in guys who could play over the last two seasons (Fletcher, Spikes, Adams, Milloy, Posey). IMO you'll see the same type of improvement in the offense when we bring in another receiver and a new QB. You don't win without talent in this league.