Bills "D" over rated or overacheiving

[juice]

H
ow is this "D" who got ripped by KC a few weeks ago ranked #2. almost the worst in causing turnovers, no player has stepped up to be #1 free safety, average end play at best, and not even 1 player stands out as a sure Pro Bowler is this truely a #1 "D" or just a spacesaver for the Ravens super "D". ACC

[helmetguy]

They manage to keep points off the scoreboard. Isn't THAT what good defenses do?

[juice]

Originally posted by helmetguy
They manage to keep points off the scoreboard. Isn't THAT what good defenses do?

Yes THAT is what good defenses manage, but to be #1 in defense next to keeping your opponent out of the endzone your most important job is creating opporitunities by taking the rock. We have showed a lacking ability to create turnovers with our corners not getting interceptions and our pass rush not causing QB fumbles. THAT is why we have no defensive Pro Bowlers. ACC

[Tatonka]

i looked at all their numbers and all the rankings.. they are doing a great job.. i am just not sure how..

the bills defense doesnt envoke fear like a ravens D or miami D does.. but they do a good job most of the time.

they really let us down in the KC game.. and the first jets game..

and a couple key breakdowns cost us the houston game and the miami game.

[Brian Griese Rulz]

Originally posted by juice
almost the worst in causing turnovers

Not almost, They ARE the worst in causing turnovers.

[helmetguy]

With our offensive struggles, "getting the rock" hasn't really panned out, has it? How many points has our offense scored off turnovers? You have to walk before you can run. These things also come in stages. First, you limit what an offense can do against you. Then you shut down the possibility of the "big play." Then, you keep points off the board. So far, so good. Give these guys a chance!

[Buckets]

Originally posted by juice
H
ow is this "D" who got ripped by KC a few weeks ago ranked #2. almost the worst in causing turnovers, no player has stepped up to be #1 free safety, average end play at best, and not even 1 player stands out as a sure Pro Bowler is this truely a #1 "D" or just a spacesaver for the Ravens super "D". ACC

Over the years I have noted that usually an aboration like the KC game is the responsibility of poor game planning. Even the great Bills teams of the SB years would pitch a real bomb once in a while and you could trace it back to the game plan.

[casdhf]

I think Steve Tasker said it best, when he said the team is very good on 1st and second down. That's when the great defenses shine....leaving 3rd and longs often

[juice]

Originally posted by casdhf
I think Steve Tasker said it best, when he said the team is very good on 1st and second down. That's when the great defenses shine....leaving 3rd and longs often

The #1 defenses cause QB fumbles and interceptions on 3rd down giving the offense a short field and dictating game flow. Md 58 Fla 57

[TigerJ]

I think there is a strong connection between the relatively ineffective pass rush most of the year and the lack of forcing turnovers. A strong pass rush raises the number of interceptions and fumbles by the QB. Another factor is the poor offence by the Bills in a lot of games. In theory the passing game is a higher risk aspect of the game than the running game. Because the Bills haven't scored a lot of points, there haven't been a lot of games where opposing offences have had to alter their game plan away from running the ball to passing. The last two games were particularly encouraging IMHO because of the number of sacks. The Bills also got turnovers on both games.

[HenryRules]

I think our D is both overrated and overachieving.

After the last 2 weeks performances, I don't think they're as overrated as they were a few weeks ago ... but I just don't think our D makes game-changing plays that I think great D's do. Plus, when the other offense has the ball in the 4th quarter, I don't have nearly the confidence in our D that I would in a lot of others.

[juice]

Originally posted by TigerJ
I think there is a strong connection between the relatively ineffective pass rush most of the year and the lack of forcing turnovers. A strong pass rush raises the number of interceptions and fumbles by the QB. Another factor is the poor offence by the Bills in a lot of games. In theory the passing game is a higher risk aspect of the game than the running game. Because the Bills haven't scored a lot of points, there haven't been a lot of games where opposing offences have had to alter their game plan away from running the ball to passing. The last two games were particularly encouraging IMHO because of the number of sacks. The Bills also got turnovers on both games.


Originally posted by HenryRules
I think our D is both overrated and overachieving.

After the last 2 weeks performances, I don't think they're as overrated as they were a few weeks ago ... but I just don't think our D makes game-changing plays that I think great D's do. Plus, when the other offense has the ball in the 4th quarter, I don't have nearly the confidence in our D that I would in a lot of others.

I agree. MD over #1 Fla ACC

[Brian Griese Rulz]

Originally posted by helmetguy
How many points has our offense scored off turnovers?

Since the Bills have a league low of 14 takeaways, I bet the Bills are also last in Points off Tunronver.

St. Louis has a league high 40 takeaways.

[helmetguy]

Over rated? Over acheiving? How about evolving? Remember that "No-Name" D of Miami? How many HOF'ers are there from that unit?

(Shut up, Phil! Let these guys figure it out!)

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by helmetguy
Over rated? Over acheiving? How about evolving? Remember that "No-Name" D of Miami? How many HOF'ers are there from that unit?

(Shut up, Phil! Let these guys figure it out!)

End of story!:clap:

[juice]

No name defense= No win defense= No playoff defense= no pro bowl defense. MD over #1Fla!!

[The Spaz]

Umm the no name defense won a superbowl

[loyal2dagame]

turnovers aside,

it really doesnt matter in my opinion if any of the bills defenders make the probowl or not.

i hope none of the bills d make the probowl.

i think not having any 1 player make the p.b. would be more important to this team than 3-5 making it.

"he's crazy....., players making the probowl shows you have talent on your team"<-------some might say

well having a top defense with no 1 superstar shows me that the bills work better as a team than as individuals.

which is more important in your opinion?

[ShadowHawk7]

u've got a good point there Loyal, but it's too bad none of the loser sport writers, analysts, commentators, and spectators, will take the Bills serioulsy unless sum people make it.

[juice]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Umm the no name defense won a superbowl

Not this years version
Originally posted by loyal2dagame
turnovers aside,
With all the hoopla with Spikes I hoped he would be that Dominator, It just seems that all the top "D" have that Ray Lewis or Warren Sapp. The overall top ranking might be overrated because NE plays excellent "D" and are't ranked that high with no superstars.
it really doesnt matter in my opinion if any of the bills defenders make the probowl or not.

i hope none of the bills d make the probowl.

i think not having any 1 player make the p.b. would be more important to this team than 3-5 making it.

"he's crazy....., players making the probowl shows you have talent on your team"<-------some might say

well having a top defense with no 1 superstar shows me that the bills work better as a team than as individuals.

which is more important in your opinion?

[helmetguy]

Originally posted by juice
No name defense= No win defense= No playoff defense= no pro bowl defense. MD over #1Fla!!

Seems to me that "No Name" defense won 17 straight games back in the early '70's (as much as I hate to admit it!). Using your equation, I came up with:

No Name Defense = 14-0 (reg season) 2-0 Post season, inc. SB win) = 4 Pro Bowlers on D (Scott, Anderson, Stanfill, Buoniconti).

Now, you were saying...?
BTW, how many from that D made the HOF?

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by loyal2dagame


well having a top defense with no 1 superstar shows me that the bills work better as a team than as individuals.

which is more important in your opinion?


That's quite an optimistic way of looking at things ... weren't people saying the exact same thing about the Bears D a few years ago?

I can't think of the last Super Bow winners that didn't have any pro bowlers (has there ever been one)?

Having a top defense with no superstar shows me that we don't have anyone capable of winning a game by themselves ... come playoff time, those guys are how you advance through the rounds.

[juice]

Originally posted by loyal2dagame
turnovers aside,

it really doesnt matter in my opinion if any of the bills defenders make the probowl or not.

i hope none of the bills d make the probowl.

i think not having any 1 player make the p.b. would be more important to this team than 3-5 making it.

"he's crazy....., players making the probowl shows you have talent on your team"<-------some might say

well having a top defense with no 1 superstar shows me that the bills work better as a team than as individuals.

which is more important in your opinion?

Just seems that all the top defenses have a few superstars Ray Lewis or Sapp, as far as the ranking itself might be overrated because NE plays excellent "D" with no superstars or Pro bowlers and they're not ranked that high. MD over #1 Fla ACC

[loyal2dagame]

With all the hoopla with Spikes I hoped he would be that Dominator, It just seems that all the top "D" have that Ray Lewis or Warren Sapp. The overall top ranking might be overrated because NE plays excellent "D" and are't ranked that high with no superstars.


hey juice, i never said that, but it sounds darn good!!!

:cheers:

[helmetguy]

With the exception of the first couple of weeks into the season, the Bills haven't been attracting an awful lot of attention, save for being labelled as "struggling/disappointing." Among the fans around the league, that won't garner many votes for any player on either side of the ball. Face it, our two appearances on the national stage (@Miami, @ KC) didn't do much to help the cause, either. If we don't get players into the annual "some star" game, it isn't a big deal. Better that we keep improving; something to pin the hopes on for next season. With our current offense and the hole we were put in, winning a SB this year is a pipe dream, at best!

[loyal2dagame]

another thought:

how could anybody not be happy with the d we have this year?

sure turnovers are one of the most important parts of the game, if not the most important.

BUT,

our d has given up more than 20 points in a game in only 2 out of 13 games.

if we had a d like this last year, we would have crushed whom ever we might have played in the superbowl.

BUT,

it can also be said that if we had an offense this year like we did last year, no body would be able to touch us.

SO,

inconclusion, our team didnt truely gain any ground with all the free agents we brought in.......we were only able to keep the team similar to last years team.........

one side of the ball dominates, and the other is average to crappy

maybe t.d. isnt as great as we thought........

[helmetguy]

TD did what he needed to do after last year-improve the D. Sure, the O took major steps backward, but you can put the lion's share for that squarely on KG and GW. Against KC, we didn't run the ball until it was far too late, when KC was in the bottom half of the league against the run. Too many times, KG eschewed the running game for the pass-particularly in the red zone, and we came away empty.

[loyal2dagame]

helmet,

i kinda agree with you,

BUT,

i think coy wire may have been able to come close to the job milloy is doing.

which to me means that the money t.d. threw at milloy(i'm not saying it was a bad decision in any way) may have been put to better use getting a good #2 reciever.

BUT,

hindsight is 20-20

[juice]

Originally posted by loyal2dagame
another thought:

how could anybody not be happy with the d we have this year?

sure turnovers are one of the most important parts of the game, if not the most important.

BUT,

our d has given up more than 20 points in a game in only 2 out of 13 games.

if we had a d like this last year, we would have crushed whom ever we might have played in the superbowl.

BUT,

it can also be said that if we had an offense this year like we did last year, no body would be able to touch us.

SO,

inconclusion, our team didnt truely gain any ground with all the free agents we brought in.......we were only able to keep the team similar to last years team.........

one side of the ball dominates, and the other is average to crappy

maybe t.d. isnt as great as we thought........

I have a problem with our corner play, they havn't been used in blitz schemes and neither are getting any interceptions, Posey should be used more in the zone blitz, we dont have a true starter at FS which has hurt Nate's Picks.End play average yet they're still ranked #2?

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by helmetguy
BTW, how many from that D made the HOF?

:gag:

[TigerJ]

"Evolving" might be an apt word for the defence if you buy what some of the players themselves have been saying lately. One of the linebackers, I forget whether it was Fletcher or Spikes was reported on Buffalo TV as saying they have finally come to the point where they instinctively know what the other guys are going to do, so they take less time to react to situations. They have more confidence in each other so they can take more chances. That can only be good in a defence that depends on aggresiveness.

[BillsNick]

I would like to see more takeaways, but there is no way in hell, I'm gonna sit here here and pick apart the one thing that has kept us alive this far. Are you kidding me? We keep points off the board. Period. that's what it comes down to. We need better offense. let's talk about that, shall we?

[TedMock]

Also, with our offense not performing we're not putting up points. As long as the score is close, the other team doesn't have to get away from their game plan and put themselves in positions to make stupid mistakes. It'd be a lot easier to get turnovers if we're ahead by a couple of TD's forcing the other team to stray from their plan. They'd be passing more making more opportunity for INT's, sacks and fumbles. For the most part our defense has kept the opponent to a minimal scoring level. That's the most important part.

[BillsNick]

Originally posted by TedMock
Also, with our offense not performing we're not putting up points. As long as the score is close, the other team doesn't have to get away from their game plan and put themselves in positions to make stupid mistakes. It'd be a lot easier to get turnovers if we're ahead by a couple of TD's forcing the other team to stray from their plan. They'd be passing more making more opportunity for INT's, sacks and fumbles. For the most part our defense has kept the opponent to a minimal scoring level. That's the most important part.


Excelent post, TedMock:bf1: This is true, if we had larger margins of leads, like say for instance, the Rams and Chiefs, two offensive powerhouses, who also happen to be in the top 5 in takeaways. This is something we haven't really considered yet.

[BillsNick]

I think this article puts things in perspective.:D




BUFFALO’S DEFENSE

There is not a better unit in the League, but Takeo Spikes and company have recently come under fire from sports writers decrying the NFL’s second-ranked defense as overrated.

I wholeheartedly disagree. If anything, the defense is underrated.

Considering that while facing the toughest schedule in the NFL this season, the Bills’ “D” has still compiled some very impressive statistics. Despite the fact that their offensive counterparts have provided opponents with prime field position countless times, they have still yielded an astoundingly low 15.4 points-per-game.

Criticism has been directed at one particular stat: takeaways. The Bills’ D has intercepted or recovered a fumble an NFL-low 14 times this year. But there is more to football than meets the statition’s eye.

Turnovers come when an opposing team has to take some chances. Teams haven’t been forced into taking offensive chances because the Bills’ offense hasn’t put many points up themselves. Buffalo ranks 27th in scoring (16.5 points per game). The few times the Bills did score a few touchdowns in a game, they Bills defense took full advantage and turned them into blowouts.

In a game which momentum can mean everything, the D has played strong through some very low times this season. Even when the D or special teams gets an interception or a blocked punt, the offense kills the momentum by going three and out or otherwise handing the ball back to the other side. It is nearly impossible to force another team into making mistakes when they have the momentum.

Jerry Gray, the Bills’ defensive coordinator, has done his part too. Just this past week against the Jets he showed the skill to adjust. After the New Jersey team was able to start the game by marching to a field goal, Gray quickly detected the Jets’ game plan and moved to counter. The only other Jets’ score came in the second half on another field goal after a decent kickoff return. All that even though the offense turned the ball over a couple of times.

Put this defense on a team with even a middle-of-the-pack offense, and Super Bowl talks would be realized. One-hundred percent of the Bills’ failures this season can be placed on the shoulders of the offense and coaching staff. The defense has nothing at all to be ashamed of.

Tom Donahoe’s work at putting together this defensive squad is an absolute success. The great news is that almost the entire defense is signed for the next few years. I have to think the offense should be fixed before that period of time elapses.

http://www.billsdaily.com/articles/chenelly/musing.shtml

[SABURZFAN]

this defense is neither overrated or overachieving.if i could have these numbers every year by our defense,i'd be a happy fan.let's not forget about our stumbling offense from week 3 to week 11.otherwise,the numbers posted by our defense would be a little lower.

[SABURZFAN]

Originally posted by juice
No name defense= No win defense= No playoff defense= no pro bowl defense. MD over #1Fla!!


Originally posted by helmetguy
Seems to me that "No Name" defense won 17 straight games back in the early '70's (as much as I hate to admit it!). Using your equation, I came up with:

No Name Defense = 14-0 (reg season) 2-0 Post season, inc. SB win) = 4 Pro Bowlers on D (Scott, Anderson, Stanfill, Buoniconti).

Now, you were saying...?
BTW, how many from that D made the HOF?

there's nothing more than i like to see than someone being schooled with Old School knowledge.

[Jan Reimers]

It's a very good D that is a pass rushing DE and a play making FS away from being a super D.

[juice]

Originally posted by SABURZFAN
there's nothing more than i like to see than someone being schooled with Old School knowledge.

Dont get things twisted we're not talking the Phins we're talking about the Bills and our Suspect #2 "D", which is going have to playlike a legit #2 or McNair will expose our suspect pass rush and soft middle deep coverage. Just to have a chance at postseason and to keep our DC position not to get swept up in "Regime Change". Lose Gray and you lose Winfield. A little new school knowledge. ACC

[IHateTheDullphins]

I am perfectly happy with our D. It's our O that needs to stay consistent.

[juice]

If you lose the game Sunday, you might lose the staff and Gray, if you lose Gray you might lose Winfield, then you have one more huge hole in a defense that already has gaps. McNair will be a good test for the #2 #1ACC Basketball

[BillsNick]

Winfield is as good as gone. Hey juice, do you know how to add things to your sig? I notice you always put something about ACC and stuff after your post. You can avoid having to do it everytime by adding a sig.

[juice]

Originally posted by BillsNick
Winfield is as good as gone. Hey juice, do you know how to add things to your sig? I notice you always put something about ACC and stuff after your post. You can avoid having to do it everytime by adding a sig.

I think he likes playing for Gray, Alot like spikes wanted to be around Lebeau. I update with upsets like ; UNRANKED MD over #1 Fla.

[helmetguy]

I was merely pointing out, Juice, that you don't need to have a star-studded unit to achieve the level of success the Bills' defense has this season. While there are several notables on that unit, that does not necessarily lead to Pro Bowl votes. Further, not placing individuals in the Pro Bowl does not necessarily invalidate the unit's accomplishments. That is why i pointed out the Phins' 1972 "No Name Defense" as an example. That unit went undefeated, so you would be quick to conclude that they were a star-studded unit. Sure, they did place four guys in the Pro Bowl that year; back when only players and coaches made the selections. Now, again, of that entire unit, how many do you think are in the Hall of Fame? Bottom line is, they were recognized as an entire unit, not eleven individual pieces of it.

One other question: Is it more important to you to have players in the Pro Bowl, or to build for the ultimate TEAM success?

[Throne Logic]

Originally posted by BillsNick

Considering that while facing the toughest schedule in the NFL this season, the Bills’ “D” has still compiled some very impressive statistics.

I'd certainly like to know how they reached this conclusion. This schedule is not nearly the hardest in the NFL.

[helmetguy]

Originally posted by Throne Logic
I'd certainly like to know how they reached this conclusion. This schedule is not nearly the hardest in the NFL.

Basing it on the composite W/L percentage of our opponents, I would suspect. seems I did see that stat somewhere, though.

[juice]

Sunday against the Titans I'd have to go with Overrated, and onc again lack of turnovers didn't help. There was the one Pass rush that caused the fumble but nothing late in the game.

[helmetguy]

I move that we ban the use of the words "over/underrated." "Ratings" are subjective. As far as where our D was RANKED, the numbers are what determined that. The D did play pretty well against a good football team, though. Face it, Tennesse is simply better than we are right now...mainly because they're better coached.

[juice]

But a first time starter, he kind of shredded our secondary.

[helmetguy]

Hell, we've been beaten by backup QB's this year! If we could ****ing SCORE, that wouldn't happen!