Questions for Ingtar-

[Dozerdog]

Good to see you back buddy- i hope you had your fill of turkey and giblits (whatever those are)


My Questions-


If Ruben Quit on us, do you think he would fetch a 3rd round pick in the draft?

[Dozerdog]

Here's another crazy thought-


The Rams will Tender Bulger- I heard it will cost them 1.9 million to give him the highest tender. I don't think they can afford to sign him to anything more because they just gave Warner a huge contract ($ 11 million in salary and bonus next year) and it would be a huge hit to trade and or cut him outright.

If someone signs Bulger to a bigger deal, the Rams will be compensated with a 1st and 3rd rd pick. Can the Bills pull a Redskins and snatch Bulger Like Washington did with Laverneous Coles?

And could the Bills Get that 3rd rd back by dealing Ruben Brown to a team like the Giants? Would the Giants or anyone else bite?

[Ingtar33]

hrmmm... tricky one...

I have the sneaking suspicion that the reason he was not suspended is because TD promised him he was going to come back next year... I don't think he quit so much as had a fight with KG...

Or at least that is the rumor I heard… but it is way too thin a rumor to not let you all know its only that… a rumor.

If Ruben was going to be gone next year, i think the team would have suspended him not given him a leave of absence... if a story comes out Ruben had spoken with TD last week, i think you can bank on this rumor as truth.

BTW: Ralph loves Ruben, and Ruben bleeds Bills red, white and blue... I just have problems believing we'd cut him when we'd effectively be giving him up and gaining no cap space.

[Dozerdog]

I don't think the Bills would cut him outright to save a measly $36,000 in cap space either- thus the trade option.


If the reason he missed the game was because he pulled a Buddy Ryan on Gillbride- I have to completely apologize about my earlier comments about his being a "quitter"


(Not that I think he handled it well)

[Ingtar33]

Well, for a 3rd most every team in the nfl would bite on that deal... but i'd rather not take Bulger... in essence, he's a mediocre QB surrounded by Pro Bowl and hall of fame talent.

The rams win in spite of Bulger, not because of him.

NFL value for RB could be as high as a late 1st round pick (there's always a sucker) to a mid 2nd round pick

[eyedog]

Ingtar for being a scout you are way off base on Rubens trade value. No way does any team give up a 1st or 2nd rd. pick for a 30+ old guard, especially at that salary.

[Novacane]

Originally posted by eyedog
Ingtar for being a scout you are way off base on Rubens trade value. No way does any team give up a 1st or 2nd rd. pick for a 30+ old guard, especially at that salary.


I agree! If anyone offered us a 3rd rounder I'd take it and run!

What did the Rams give up for Turley last year? No way Ruben would bring the same or better!

[Typ0]

Damn I am not a violent person at all but I sure wish RB kicked the crap out of KG...it would have been great seeing him limping with a couple black eyes today :snicker:



Originally posted by Ingtar33
hrmmm... tricky one...

I have the sneaking suspicion that the reason he was not suspended is because TD promised him he was going to come back next year... I don't think he quit so much as had a fight with KG...

Or at least that is the rumor I heard… but it is way too thin a rumor to not let you all know its only that… a rumor.

If Ruben was going to be gone next year, i think the team would have suspended him not given him a leave of absence... if a story comes out Ruben had spoken with TD last week, i think you can bank on this rumor as truth.

BTW: Ralph loves Ruben, and Ruben bleeds Bills red, white and blue... I just have problems believing we'd cut him when we'd effectively be giving him up and gaining no cap space.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by eyedog
Ingtar for being a scout you are way off base on Rubens trade value. No way does any team give up a 1st or 2nd rd. pick for a 30+ old guard, especially at that salary.
No offense, eyedog- even though Ingtar himself say's he's not 100% right all the time (no one is- except my wife:couch: but I'd lean more in his evaluation of RB's value any of us.

[Novacane]

The rams gave up a #2 for a 27 year old tackle(Turley) last year. No way we are going to get a #1 or #2 for a 32 year old guard. No way in Hell.

[eyedog]

Thats how I see it also Fairway. I hope we are wrong and the Bills can get an early pick for him, but I don't think so. He's not even a tackle. I actually don't think they will get anything more than a very late pick at best.

[Throne Logic]

Is Hasselbeck (Tim) an FA next year? He's looked pretty solid for Washington. Would at least make a good backup for Buffalo.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green
The rams gave up a #2 for a 27 year old tackle(Turley) last year. No way we are going to get a #1 or #2 for a 32 year old guard. No way in Hell.

However, Turley is also known as having a disruptive personality on the team - something that can be very harmful for an OL. Although his attitude helped the Rams line, it was seen as a drawback before the trade.

On the other hand, aside from this incident, Ruben has always been known as a teammate that everyone liked (as far as I know).

[eyedog]

I'll take Turley's game and his disruptive personality over Rubens overrated game and his likeability.

[The Natrix]

I don't think the Bills could even get a fourth for R. Brown.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by eyedog
I'll take Turley's game and his disruptive personality over Rubens overrated game and his likeability.

Until Turley blows his cool and costs you a game winning drive. Remember the Sunday Night Football game last year? Turley trying to rip a guy's helmet off vs the Jets- cost the Saints the win and they fell 1 game short of the playoffs

[Dozerdog]

It's one thing to play with a mean streak, another to play just plain stupid

[LtBillsFan66]

If all this is true about Ruben, I would even take a later round pick for him. Just to avoid the cap hit.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by billsfanone
If all this is true about Ruben, I would even take a later round pick for him. Just to avoid the cap hit.


The difference between Ruben staying and playing, or cutting him/trading him is a measly $36,000

Ingtar says the rumor circulating is that he didn't play because of a fight with Gillbride. If that's the case- bring him back.

If it's because he quit- then trade him and get something in return- he's costing 4 mill against the cap with or without him.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
The difference between Ruben staying and playing, or cutting him/trading him is a measly $36,000

Ingtar says the rumor circulating is that he didn't play because of a fight with Gillbride. If that's the case- bring him back.

If it's because he quit- then trade him and get something in return- he's costing 4 mill against the cap with or without him.

There's a cap hit even if we trade him?

I know jack about the cap...

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by billsfanone
There's a cap hit even if we trade him?

I know jack about the cap...


He has 4 Million in bonus spread out over a couple more years.

If he plays, he collects 3 million salary, plus 1.3 million of his signing bonus counts vs the cap.

If he gets cut/Traded, then all remaining signing bonus counts vs the cap in 2004- which is roughly also 4 Million.



No sweat, little buddy. If you watch the NFL channel- see my United Way commercial. .... I do a spot where Doug Flutie and I explain football at a home for those afflicted with dwarfism.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
He has 4 Million in bonus spread out over a couple more years.

If he plays, he collects 3 million salary, plus 1.3 million of his signing bonus counts vs the cap.

If he gets cut/Traded, then all remaining signing bonus counts vs the cap in 2004- which is roughly also 4 Million.



No sweat, little buddy. If you watch the NFL channel- see my United Way commercial. .... I do a spot where Doug Flutie and I explain football at a home for those afflicted with dwarfism.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[clumping platelets]

Salary cap?


:couch:

[eyedog]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Until Turley blows his cool and costs you a game winning drive. Remember the Sunday Night Football game last year? Turley trying to rip a guy's helmet off vs the Jets- cost the Saints the win and they fell 1 game short of the playoffs

Who would you rather have, a real all-pro like Turley or a fake all-pro like Brown ? The question is, what is the possible draft pick compensation for Ruben in a trade ? The Saints got a #2 for Turley. What would Ruben fetch ? I say 6th or 7th rd.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by eyedog
Who would you rather have, a real all-pro like Turley or a fake all-pro like Brown ? The question is, what is the possible draft pick compensation for Ruben in a trade ? The Saints got a #2 for Turley. What would Ruben fetch ? I say 6th or 7th rd.

Then you would be getting ripped off.

I'm not saying folks would give a #2 for RB in a deepp draft- but a #3 - connsidering high profile linemen trade history, I think that's realistic.

[eyedog]

I'd be happy as hell to get a #3 for that overrated bag of rocks. I hope your right.

[don137]

Didn't we get a 4th rounder for O. Gary? If we can do that than Rueban i worth more than him...I agree that if Rueban fight is with the coaching staff then it may be a moot point since that regime will be gone by Monday...

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Until Turley blows his cool and costs you a game winning drive. Remember the Sunday Night Football game last year? Turley trying to rip a guy's helmet off vs the Jets- cost the Saints the win and they fell 1 game short of the playoffs


turley was protecting his qb who almost got decapitated by a cheap play by robinson, the safety... i thought that play was sweet.

[DraftBoy]

I think people who call Rueben Brown overrated are unaware of his talent. There is a reason this guy went to so many pro bowls. I really dont put much faith into what either one of you 2 have said so far about RB. Because to grab anything lower than a 3rd round pick for RB would go down as one of the biggest ripoffs in history. The guy doesnt make the pro bowl on name recognition alone. Im sorry but we arent NFL scouts or players or coaches so to be perfectly honest your not watching him every play, your only seeing the bad and not the good. Can either of you tell me how man pancakes he had this season, or how many holes he opened up? Ill wait for the answer on that one, but I wont hold my breath. We dont know what the hell happened with Brown and last weeks game, we dont what brought it on, but we do know this...

Hes the anchor of our OL
Hes a pro bowler
Hes the only one I trust to open up holes for Herny and McGahee next season.

AND finally... You dont trade a repeat pro bowler for a lousy Day 2 pick, unless your a friggin idiot.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Tatonka
turley was protecting his qb who almost got decapitated by a cheap play by robinson, the safety... i thought that play was sweet.

While I also appreciated his intentions for sticking up for Brooks on that play (I had Brooks on my FFL) he's got to remember there was only what....20 seconds or something left? Instead of first and goal at the 3 or 4, it was offsetting dead ball penalties, an additional 15 yards for unsportsmanlike conduct, ejection, 4th down & long , (which they never converted ) and playoff elimination.

Any other part of the game and he's a hero. But you can't let the roid rage get the better of you.

If you were a Saints fan, you'de have kicked the dog.

[HenryRules]

Like all other sports ... there's a reason that players have #'s on their jerseys. That's so that when someone does something to a teammate at a key time in the game, you can remember who it was and get them back at a later date when the cost will be lower.

If Turley hasn't learned that by now, he's not only a selfish ass ... he's a moron.

[Ingtar33]

Turley's had many problems, he's a great player, but a head case... sort of like Brian Cox.

Trust me, Ruben could fetch a 2nd round pick with little difficulty, especially at his cap number. Pro Bowl guards in this league make more than he does... well, some of them do.

As to RB's talent, its slipped a fair amount, but I think fans tend to miss assigning blame for "sacks"... on TV you see one o-lineman push a d-lineman then turn to block someone else, seemingly forgetting the man he just hit, letting him get to the QB... most fans blame the sack on the o-lineman who had blocked the d-lineman however momentarily... that is simply inaccurate... in 90% of the plays you see this sort of sack it is the fault of the o-lineman to the side the d-lineman made his rush, as the blocking scheme calls for the o-linemen to pass off their blocks in a zone-blocking scheme.

example from two weeks ago...
Ruben Brown blocks Larry Chester, its an angled block, where he forces Larry back inside toward Teague, Larry bounces inside, and Ruben ignores him, turning outside to help Sullivan with Jason Taylor... Tre Teague, having drifted too far toward the right side of the line, is too slow to pick up Chester as he swings into the A gap, forcing Drew to throw off his back foot (incomplete), as Chester finds himself in the backfield after only getting a simple chuck block from Ruben.

I was watching this game in Buffalo in a sports bar, and everyone and their brother was screaming at Ruben for not blocking Chester... however Chester was not Ruben's responsibility, he was Teague's.

That situation I just highlighted, in a nutshell, can be blamed for maybe 60% of our sacks against this year, as Teague or Pucillo would time and time again, fail to pick up the block... or Teague would make a poor line call, resulting in D-linemen coming free.

New center, new RG and half your line problems will disappear overnight.

BTW: 2 years ago, Ruben was penalized 3 times all year, last season it was 6, this year it was 5…

*this is not to say RB is a great O-lineman, only that he is not nearly as bad as Bill fans seem to think. This year the line was a disaster, and I think the highering of that o-line coach alone should be call for Gregg to lose his job. It’s a shame the Bills didn’t fix their Center position last off season.

[eyedog]

Well that must explain Albert Haynesworth rolling over the top of Ruben all day in Tenn. I guess it was Teagues fault the whole game. I don't buy it, I know what I saw. Go get the tape of that game and watch again. When you have finished with that one I have a couple more you can look at this year.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by Ingtar33

BTW: 2 years ago, Ruben was penalized 3 times all year, last season it was 6, this year it was 5…



RB has had at least 10 penalties this year. Probably closer to 20. He gets at least one holding or false start penalties a game.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Here's another crazy thought-


The Rams will Tender Bulger- I heard it will cost them 1.9 million to give him the highest tender. I don't think they can afford to sign him to anything more because they just gave Warner a huge contract ($ 11 million in salary and bonus next year) and it would be a huge hit to trade and or cut him outright.

If someone signs Bulger to a bigger deal, the Rams will be compensated with a 1st and 3rd rd pick. Can the Bills pull a Redskins and snatch Bulger Like Washington did with Laverneous Coles?

And could the Bills Get that 3rd rd back by dealing Ruben Brown to a team like the Giants? Would the Giants or anyone else bite?

I am not really sold on Bulger Doze.

[Novacane]

Originally posted by Ingtar33


Trust me, Ruben could fetch a 2nd round pick with little difficulty,


.[/i]


I love reading your insights Ing but I just can't believe that one. I'd have to see it to believe it. If we could really get a 2nd for Ruben we ought to do it!

[eyedog]

If they can get a 2nd for Ruben in this upcoming draft, which they can't, but for arguments sake, why don't they do that then and draft the best guard available for his replacement. He would be much cheaper, younger, and most importantly an upgrade.
I'll be waiting for TD to pull that trade off.

[THATHURMANATOR]

What did the Chiefs trade for Willie Roaf? He was about the same age as RB is now when that trade happened. Both are perenial probowlers.

[Voltron]

Originally posted by eyedog
Well that must explain Albert Haynesworth rolling over the top of Ruben all day in Tenn. I guess it was Teagues fault the whole game. I don't buy it, I know what I saw. Go get the tape of that game and watch again. When you have finished with that one I have a couple more you can look at this year.

Kinda a hostile tone don't you think?

He is giving his proffesional opinion. He is the only person I know of here who has a profession in the game of football. Give him some respect as a person at least. I am not saying you don't know what you are talking about but sheesh he has been wrong very little since I have started to read his posts over the last year and 1/2 (maybe more :) ).

[THATHURMANATOR]

Originally posted by Voltron


Kinda a hostile tone don't you think?

He is giving his proffesional opinion. He is the only person I know of here who has a profession in the game of football. Give him some respect as a person at least. I am not saying you don't know what you are talking about but sheesh he has been wrong very little since I have started to read his posts over the last year and 1/2 (maybe more :) ).

I agree.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Does anyone know what the Chiefs gave up for Roaf?

[eyedog]

All right, all right calm down. I also enjoy reading Ingtars takes as he is very knowledgable. Thats why I can't see why he is so far off base on this topic. I hope to be proven wrong and the Bills get that 2nd round pick. We will see.

Also Roaf is a TACKLE, and a left one at that. Big difference compared to a guard. But I believe the Chiefs traded a 2nd rd. pick for him.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Originally posted by eyedog
All right, all right calm down. I also enjoy reading Ingtars takes as he is very knowledgable. Thats why I can't see why he is so far off base on this topic. I hope to be proven wrong and the Bills get that 2nd round pick. We will see.

Also Roaf is a TACKLE, and a left one at that. Big difference compared to a guard. But I believe the Chiefs traded a 2nd rd. pick for him.

Yes I know he is a tackle but it still is a similar situation. I don't think roaf went to 9 straight probowls either.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by THATHURMANATOR
Does anyone know what the Chiefs gave up for Roaf?

3rd rd pick

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by eyedog
If they can get a 2nd for Ruben in this upcoming draft, which they can't, but for arguments sake, why don't they do that then and draft the best guard available for his replacement. He would be much cheaper, younger, and most importantly an upgrade.
I'll be waiting for TD to pull that trade off.


Oh yeah- Pro Bowl guards just fall out of trees every year in the second or third round- but it doesn't explain why the people he plays against and coach against him keep voting him in-


Give RB up for a 6th or 7th? Can I play in your FFL next year??

[eyedog]

There you go a 3rd rd pick for Roaf. Now how is Ruben gonna fetch that 2nd ? And how is a left tackle similar to a left guard ? I assume you realize which of the two is the more important. And I don't care how many times in a row Ruben went to the popularity bowl, that means nothing. As most realize he souldn't have been to even half of those.

[Dozerdog]

Oh- Players vote for the most popular players instead of the best players- eespecially when many of ther players (including their own team mates) can make serious $$$ in pro bowl incentives. Pro Bowl is actually more like a homecoming King & Queen ceremony.


I did not know that.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by THATHURMANATOR
Yes I know he is a tackle but it still is a similar situation. I don't think roaf went to 9 straight probowls either.

Roaf had an injury riddled season, and was involved in some serious off field issues with another player (Joe Horn?)


Roid Rage Kyle Turley fetched a 2nd rounder.

[eyedog]

Well now you do. Ruben is the King.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Originally posted by eyedog
There you go a 3rd rd pick for Roaf. Now how is Ruben gonna fetch that 2nd ? And how is a left tackle similar to a left guard ? I assume you realize which of the two is the more important. And I don't care how many times in a row Ruben went to the popularity bowl, that means nothing. As most realize he souldn't have been to even half of those.

What are you talking about? I was asking what the chiefs got for Roaf because I didn't know. Not to make a point. If they only got a 3rd for Roaf I wouldn't see us getting more for RB.

[eyedog]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Roaf had an injury riddled season, and was involved in some serious off field issues with another player (Joe Horn?)

Sounds like Ruben. Maybe the Chiefs will give us a #3.

[Ingtar33]

There was some serious doubt Roaf would ever play football again (his injury was that serious)

As to Ruben getting steamrolled, yeah it has happened a few times... he's been having some problems handling the bigger DTs in the NFL by himself for a few years now (in pass blocking)... not gonna dissagree with that, however its not nearly as common as you make it sound.

I think in the end it all comes down to this, we have one of the top 10 guards in the AFC (no i don't think he's still pro bowl talent), getting paid a very resonable salary, who bleeds Bills Red, White and Blue... lives in this town year round, loves the city and folks, and will save the team no money if he leaves this off season.

Why would anyone want to get rid of him?

[Throne Logic]

Ingtar, that last paragraph pretty much sums it up as best as anyone could ever do it.

I, for one, expect him to be back next year.

[Dozerdog]

Peple wan to run everybody out of town these days.

Gregg and KG are gone.


Drew's fate is in the renegotiation of his contract.


They are running out of players

[Throne Logic]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Peple wan to run everybody out of town these days.

Gregg and KG are gone.


Drew's fate is in the renegotiation of his contract.


They are running out of players

Doz, man, I hear ya. This is absolutely frustrating.

It's like a witch hunt around here these days.

"How do you know she is a witch?"
"She turned me into a newt."
"A newt?"
"Uh . . . I got better."
"Burn her, BURN HER!!!!"

Finding intellectual / logical postings is becoming more of a challenge with each passing day. Kind of scary, if you really think about it.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Throne Logic
Doz, man, I hear ya. This is absolutely frustrating.

It's like a witch hunt around here these days.

"How do you know she is a witch?"
"She turned me into a newt."
"A newt?"
"Uh . . . I got better."
"Burn her, BURN HER!!!!"

Finding intellectual / logical postings is becoming more of a challenge with each passing day. Kind of scary, if you really think about it.

:lol:

[THATHURMANATOR]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
There was some serious doubt Roaf would ever play football again (his injury was that serious)

As to Ruben getting steamrolled, yeah it has happened a few times... he's been having some problems handling the bigger DTs in the NFL by himself for a few years now (in pass blocking)... not gonna dissagree with that, however its not nearly as common as you make it sound.

I think in the end it all comes down to this, we have one of the top 10 guards in the AFC (no i don't think he's still pro bowl talent), getting paid a very resonable salary, who bleeds Bills Red, White and Blue... lives in this town year round, loves the city and folks, and will save the team no money if he leaves this off season.

Why would anyone want to get rid of him?

I say he stays!

[eyedog]

Since there really isn't any other options on this team at the guard position he may stay, but if a team is willing to drop a 2nd rd. pick on us, then it's bye bye Ruben.

Also some of you need to open up your eyes and watch him play instead of believing all the media hype/bs that they throw in your face. Because most of the national media really has no clue about the real strenghts and weaknesses of this team.

[Dozerdog]

I don't form my opinions on any "outside media"


The last thing I want to get my football info from are the Joe Theismans, Pete Prisco's, amd Randy Cross' of the world.

[Ingtar33]

or Ingtar's... ;)

Trust me folks, i enjoy it when someone smacks me in the face and says "You're Wrong!" Its the only way anyone can learn... either you go out and prove your point, or you go out and admit your failing.

Yeah, there was a time no DT could move Ruben... its not true anymore, something happens when you turn 30... i know, i'm well past that point... but he get to the 2nd lvl (blocking linebackers) better than most every OG in the league, is one of th best "pulling guards" in the game, and gets away with more holding than any o-lineman i've ever seen. We've got us a classy vet, just sit back and enjoy the ride folks... give him a break, we all know he's not the best LG in the AFC... but he's sure been great for the town, the team, and the fans hasn't he?

[eyedog]

Ingtar if your referring to me, which I believe you are, I'm not talking smack. Just disagreeing with your assesment of getting a 1st or 2nd rd pick for Ruben. Can't see it no way no how.
I have nothing personally against Ruben. He is very good in the community and with charities. Thats always a plus. It's his play on the field that sucks and it has for a long time. If he could earn half that salary, be some kind of a leader, and keep the qb from getting killed, then I'll get off his case.
On draft issues, what do you think of Antwan Odom ?

[Throne Logic]

Eyedog: Don't forget that Ruben's play has been heavily influenced over the past 3 years by absolutely horrid coaching and the subsequent blocking schemes. You could point out problems with each of the Offensive Lineman on this current roster.

I firmly believe that the individual play of each guy on that line would appear to improve solely by better coaching that could install solid blocking schemes that account for the strengths and weaknesses of each member of that line. With this, Ruben would probably look a whole lot better than he has these past 3 years. Pucillo might be a serious stretch, but Sullivan played well last year and did OK when they finally put him in the game this year (despite him being moved to the LT position instead of his normal RG spot).

I hesitate to seriously criticize the play of just about anyone on this team until real coaching has had a chance to "fix" them.