What will another TD/TM draft be like?

[stuckincincy]

When I watch other teams, it seems that a greater percentage of their recent draft choices are playing with some regularity, in contrast to the Donohue/Mondrak draftees.

Discounting McGahee and Aiken due to injury,

From 2002 - McGahee, Kelsay, McGee, Aiken, Sobieski, Sape, Haggan, and from 2001 - Williams, Reed, Denney, Wire, Bannen, Thomas, Wright, Stephenson,

only Williams and Wire rated a fair amount of playing time, special teams excepted of course.

Perhaps these fellows will be late bloomers, maybe cap issues, perhaps they can't break into the linup...on a 6-10 team.

I'm not exactly overflowing with confidence in the upcoming draft.

The 2000 draft of Erik Flowers, Tavares Tillman, Corey Moore, Avion Black, Sammy Morris, Drew Haddad, and DaShon Polk wasn't exactly a barn-burner.

Fire away

[The_Philster]

We just have to hope we still have Modrak. The Fish might look to pick him up.

[ryguy8161]

I would think it a good thing if a team didn't have too many rookies playing. Rarely do 4th-7th round picks see much playing time anyway.

[Dozerdog]

2000 draft was Butler's - Not TD's


the 2003 draft was one of the weakest in eons. Only the Bengals got a fair amount of significant playing time out of their pics (Palmer aside) because they also gambled on injured/shot players (like Kelly Washington)

Where is the 2001 draft? Trade down and get Henry, Clements, Jennings, Sullivan- that doesn't count?

When the Bills didn't have cap space and a lot of holes- TD did a very good job drafting players who would eventually play significant time.

2002- When the cap space opened up, he filled the holes with FA's and back filled the roster with special teams players and some depth. He also managed to get a starting QB (who did get to the pro bowl) at the cost of nothing on the roster or draft for 2002.


2003- Pretty much got back what they paid for Bledsoe when they made something out of nothing (losing Price in FA) by getting the #1 pick back from Atlanta. Again did great in FA with the defensive additions.

Unfortunately, Gillbride & Williams didn't compensate for Price and messed with the O line- making it go from mediocre to horrid. Trying to run the same offense with inferior parts made DB's warts grow to humongous proportions.



Name me the players we should have drafted and what they are doing now in the NFL and make your points. Even with the hindsight advantage it's tough to argue with his drafts- unless you are just philisophically against the McGahee / Reed picks (drafting best players on the board when you are strong in those spots)

Name me teams who kicked our ass in the draft. (Pats are the only ones who come o mind)

[stuckincincy]

Originally posted by ryguy8161
I would think it a good thing if a team didn't have too many rookies playing. Rarely do 4th-7th round picks see much playing time anyway.

Understood. But if your vets go 3-13, 8-8 (fast start - then rest of league wises up) and 6-10, giving someother players a shot would seem in order, assuming they had a shot to give.

The GW/KG so-called coaching clouds everything, I know. So my questions are:

1) Are TD/TM not quite the evaluators of talent they are credited with,

2) am I being too hasty,

3) is it 90 pct. GW/KG?

Regrettable choice if #1 is true. High crime chargable to TD if #3 is true.

[stuckincincy]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
2000 draft was Butler's - Not TD's


the 2003 draft was one of the weakest in eons. Only the Bengals got a fair amount of significant playing time out of their pics (Palmer aside) because they also gambled on injured/shot players (like Kelly Washington)

Where is the 2001 draft? Trade down and get Henry, Clements, Jennings, Sullivan- that doesn't count?

When the Bills didn't have cap space and a lot of holes- TD did a very good job drafting players who would eventually play significant time.

2002- When the cap space opened up, he filled the holes with FA's and back filled the roster with special teams players and some depth. He also managed to get a starting QB (who did get to the pro bowl) at the cost of nothing on the roster or draft for 2002.


2003- Pretty much got back what they paid for Bledsoe when they made something out of nothing (losing Price in FA) by getting the #1 pick back from Atlanta. Again did great in FA with the defensive additions.

Unfortunately, Gillbride & Williams didn't compensate for Price and messed with the O line- making it go from mediocre to horrid. Trying to run the same offense with inferior parts made DB's warts grow to humongous proportions.



Name me the players we should have drafted and what they are doing now in the NFL and make your points. Even with the hindsight advantage it's tough to argue with his drafts- unless you are just philisophically against the McGahee / Reed picks (drafting best players on the board when you are strong in those spots)

Name me teams who kicked our ass in the draft. (Pats are the only ones who come o mind)

Thanks for firing away!

No, TD, drafts were not abysamal. And I know flowers et al was before TD. Yes '01 filled holes. Yes, I was philosophically opposed to picking McGahee when the deficiency of the bill's interior line existed (yes I know the pundits talked about the bills having "one of the stronger young lines" at the end of last season) . No I was not philosophically opposed to Josh Reed.

My thrust is that other teams, as I watch them on tv, seem to have a higher pct. of their choices playing. Coaching? Insufficient starters?

I'm not about to scrutinize 3 years of NFL drafts to provide a blow-by-blow analysis. I will take some time, however, to do some checking based on my observations. And name players that the bills could have picked. OBVIOUSLY hindsight exists.

[Dozerdog]

TD's worst moves were his first- Hiring a coach. TD's MO is not being hasty and researching the best solutions.

He narrowed his candidates to a small pool of assistants- unfortunately Gregg Williams was the only one not involved in a Super Bowl run and had 2 weeks to prepare. The others had about the amount of time that plane ride from the biggest game of their lives was airborne. Gregg came off polished, he got the job- and GW basically blew two rounds of assistant coaching hires (except for LeBeau)

His Best Moves-

Getting Fletch, Spikes, Adams, M Price, Milloy, Posey, Gash (even though he was misused) , a #1 for Peerless, Shaw

taking a 400,000 cap hit for an extra pick next year (O Gary)

Worst Moves - Lindell, Not replacing Watson

Baind Aide moves that worked (Temp FA moves- 1 year deals) Chidi Ahanoutou, Hollis, Izell Reese

Band Aides that failed- Farris, Robinson, maybe Rogers ( not sure on that one)

Average moves- (not great- Not terrible) Teague, Priouleu,

My "Not decided" moves-

Campbell- not used much but made some awesome grabs after getting some vicious hits

Bledsoe- Pro Bowl year 1, crap year 2, cost us 6 spots iin the 2003 draft. Brett Favre wouod have failed under Gillbride. But he played awful even when he had opportunies to succeed. Considering the cost and considering what was out there- I don't think any QB's we passed over would have mad ethis team any better tHAN 1-2 MORE WINS AT MOST.


I also rate him pretty well on his drafts- no immediate impacts, bu tthe talent is there if he gets coaches who can use Mike Williams, Reed, McGahee to their fullest potential.

[Dozerdog]

I'd have to add the Pats to the teams that got a lot from their rookies this year- a large part due to injury (over 40 different starters) and Bill Bellichick's system.

[stuckincincy]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
I'd have to add the Pats to the teams that got a lot from their rookies this year- a large part due to injury (over 40 different starters) and Bill Bellichick's system.

Indeed they did. As other teams were aided by rookies and and moreso by their bench. And I shall find the names that caught my eye and get back.

My cheif concern is that the bills are, in my view, are changing as an organization. I recall hearing somebody of note a few years ago, sayingthat the bills, along with the Steelers, niners, Dolphins, cowboys were well-run organizations, and were perennially successful because of it.

[Dozerdog]

I would have to agree. Organizationally, this team has done well - even winning with sub-par coaching (Phillips)

They scout relatively well, ownership is highly respected, and ex-players are usually on great terms with the club- even in the post cap era.

I think TD is a better evaluator of talent than Butler (and Butler was pretty good) and way better at cap management.

it's one thing to find talent, another to keep it.

[cordog]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
TD's worst moves were his first- Hiring a coach. TD's MO is not being hasty and researching the best solutions.

He narrowed his candidates to a small pool of assistants- unfortunately Gregg Williams was the only one not involved in a Super Bowl run and had 2 weeks to prepare. The others had about the amount of time that plane ride from the biggest game of their lives was airborne. Gregg came off polished, he got the job- and GW basically blew two rounds of assistant coaching hires (except for LeBeau)

His Best Moves-

Getting Fletch, Spikes, Adams, M Price, Milloy, Posey, Gash (even though he was misused) , a #1 for Peerless, Shaw

taking a 400,000 cap hit for an extra pick next year (O Gary)

Worst Moves - Lindell, Not replacing Watson

Baind Aide moves that worked (Temp FA moves- 1 year deals) Chidi Ahanoutou, Hollis, Izell Reese

Band Aides that failed- Farris, Robinson, maybe Rogers ( not sure on that one)

Average moves- (not great- Not terrible) Teague, Priouleu,

My "Not decided" moves-

Campbell- not used much but made some awesome grabs after getting some vicious hits

Bledsoe- Pro Bowl year 1, crap year 2, cost us 6 spots iin the 2003 draft. Brett Favre wouod have failed under Gillbride. But he played awful even when he had opportunies to succeed. Considering the cost and considering what was out there- I don't think any QB's we passed over would have mad ethis team any better tHAN 1-2 MORE WINS AT MOST.


I also rate him pretty well on his drafts- no immediate impacts, bu tthe talent is there if he gets coaches who can use Mike Williams, Reed, McGahee to their fullest potential.

One of the best posts ive ever read. I agree 100%

[BuffaloRanger]

TD's record as GM is the same as GW's as coach. 17-31.

His mistakes:

1. He hired GW.

2. He allowed GW to fill his staff with 10 coaches who hadn't coached at that level in the NFL.

3. Drafted WM. An arrogant pick plain and simple.
a. injured - didn't play a down
b. already had a young, Pro-Bowl quality RB (Team MVP for 2003)
c. So many other needs.

4. Made GW into a lame duck coach.

5. Allowed Kevin Gilbride to be a renegade in the face of logic the entire season.

6. Didn't fire GW or at lest KG at the bye when they were 4-4 and the season was still salvagable.

7. Ahh, the O-line. He absolutely refused to improve the offensive line in the off season. This is unforgivable and the cause of so many of the teams problems. In fact he hired a line coach with one whole year NFL experience at the position. He drafted a guy that didn't even start in college (Sobieski) passed on Coppen - starting Center on 14-2 Pats, for a much needed back-up, back-up LB. The Bills gave up 55 sacks in 2002 and have a pure pocket passer (immobile) QB who needs to be protected better than a daughter's virginity to have any success. What kind of idiot doesn't improve the line or at least add depth. TD that's who. Net result = DB is the most sacked QB in 2003, 2nd worst Bills Offense ever.

8. Say all you want about hindsight being 20/20. Foresight is what separates the decent GMs from the great. Why do people think TD is a Top Executive again? Because he has friends in the national media?

I don't like that guy. He has wasted 3 years of Bills fans lives. I'd like to see him kicked to the curb. Give Modrak the job to prevent him from becoming a fin.

[Ingtar33]

TD and Modrak work NFL management this way...

Build with the draft, don't resign players at the risk of your cap (basically draft with free agent losses in mind like they did with the Reed/Price deal, or the McGahee/Henry deal)... don't sign back ended deals, fill your worse holes with FA.

Expect to lose Winfield this year, as I think the Bills are comfortable going without him and going with McGee next year, or maybe taking a shot at Bailey or Ty Law...

If the Bills don't trade Henry this off-season, don't expect them to resign him next off season (if he's not traded this off-season, this will be his last year in buffalo)

Look for TD to replace Lindell

Teague will be replaced (obviously the worse player on th line even when the backups were in against the Pats)

Look for a high (1-3 round) pick used on a Guard or Tackle (Jennings is a FA soon)

Expect a QB in the top 4 rounds to replace AVP (cap reasons mainly)

Look for another offensive "skill" player either in the 1st or 2nd round this year... likely a high 1st round pick used on a WR... or if they go defense in the 1st (only likely if Smith or Taylor are still about), a 2nd used on a TE/QB, and a 3rd used on a G/T

*none of this is a big secret, as management styles are fairly obvious inside the NFL... look at both TD and Modrak's track record with Pit and Phi...

[Ingtar33]

BTW: the pats got a lot out of their draft... there was no doubting the talent of the guys they drafted last year... but those were all players who fell to the pats due to the fact they were widely considered head cases, lazy, or troublemakers.

BB rolled the dice that he'd be able to motivate them, while other teams ignored their god given talent, and struck gold. More power to him, i know my FO would have been fired by my team's owner had we taken those fliers... he likes character guys, and with the exception of Kelcko that whole Pats draft was described in our FO as "heartless"

Even Ty Warren (the guy i was secretly hoping would fall to the Bills) was described as playing largely "unmotivated" football.

[SABURZFAN]

i still think that butler "tanked" the 2000 draft.