okay, Ingtar, et. al...How about this draft?

[shadowfax]

First of all, this is how I'm guessing the draft will fall, at this early point:

1. I think the chargers are going to take manning.
2. the Raiders will take Fitzgerald.
3. The cards will take Big Ben.
4. The Giants will take Sean Taylor
5. The Skins will take Tommie Harris.
6. The Lions will take Kellen Winslow, which sucks.
7. The falcons will take Roy Williams, who I'm not high on cuz he's knock kneed and inflexible, and then
8. The Browns will take Gallery and
9. the Jags will take DeAngelo Hall.
10. The Texans will take Starks.
11. Steelers will take Strait cuz their secondary flat blows
12. Jets will take Reggie Williams.
13. Bills will take...

Okay. At this point, considering only the major holes the Bills need to fill (WR, TE, FS, QB), the blue chippers are gone.

Some of the highly touted 1st round prospects that remain:
Wilfork, Lavalais, Vilma, DJ Williams, Clayton, JP Losman, Will Poole, Jake Grove, and some others.

If JP Losman is there, I can't imagine the Bills will want to pull the trigger on a 1st round QB, but they just might be able to pull a trade down for a 2nd round pick. So...

What do you think about the notion of the Bills trading down to a team that covets Losman, let's say...the Dolphins, who are on record as saying they're going to draft a QB on the first day (just like the Bills I guess) and then taking:

1. Lee Evans WR (fast, talented, should have healthy knees)
2a. Chad Lavalais (I saw a dominant player last night...)
2b. Ben Watson TE (Big, fast, good kid)
3. Jeb Terry, G
4. Josh Harris
5. Alex Stepanovich, G
6. Arnold Parker, S
7. Robert Kent, QB

Yes, two QB prospects because AVP is done and who on earth is convinced that TBrown can throw a TD pass? Both Harris and Kent have very different styles and skills, and in the 7th round, why not take a flyer?

Thoughts?

[The_Philster]

TE is not a major hole that needs filled. :shakeno: We need to utilize the TE more is all.

[TigerJ]

There are two schools of thought on tight end. Phil, you see TE as a blocker and a safe target for a QB under pressure. If a coach is going to use the TE for that purpose and only that purpose, then what we've got is good enough. Some teams use the TE as a stretch the field offensive weapon. If you've got a guy like Tony Gonzalez, then that's how you've got to use him. Otherwise you're wasting his talent. I think some people remember Ben Coates as a guy who could kill defences by beating safeties down the middle. He didn't have blazing speed, but he was faster than a lot of TEs. The rationale is that if Drew Bledsoe had a guy like that, he would be very comfortable throwing deep to him. It would have the same effect as adding a second fast receiver to pair with Moulds, forcing defences to play honest and opening up other parts of the offence.

I don't think Buffalo has to get a TE in the off season, but I think a more athletic (and faster) guy would enable the offence to do some things better that they don't do well now. Besides Dave Moore is in the twilight of his career. The Bills wouldn't lose a whole lot by losing him.

If the top twelve go as you predict, shadowfax, I think a case could be made for drafting Wilfork. Sam Adams was about everything Bills fans could have reasonably hoped for this past season, but with his arthritic knees, there is always going to be a question about whether he can finish a season. He's not the oldest DT around, but he's got about the oldest pair of knees and every year he gets closer to the end. Wilfork has the bulk and the quickness to be a long term solution, and he would have a little time to develop without the pressure of starting and playing full time right away.

If Winfield bolts the team, then Chris Gamble might be worth a top 15 pick. Not a lot of others though, and a trade down is not an impossibility.

One top player you missed is Shawn Andrews, OT from Arkansas. He should be a top 10 pick. If he is someone else will drop.

[justasportsfan]

I agree we need a TE. Question is, we may already have them. Seemed to me Travis Browns favorite targets were the TE's. Maybe Drew didn't have the confidence to throw it at them or Gibride just didn't want to and since Travis has been injured for most of the year, I doubt he knew Gilbrides system which is why he had success moving the ball :woeisme:

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The_Philster
TE is not a major hole that needs filled. :shakeno: We need to utilize the TE more is all.

I've heard this mentioned on this board quite frequently recently.

I'm of the opinion that if your guy isn't as good as the guy on the other team, then your guy is a weakness.

Having said that, I have a very difficult time finding even 10 other teams that have a TE worse than our starting TE (whether you value blocking, receiving, or a combination). Because of that, I think TE is a big weakness (I consider the 20-30 range to mean we're one of the worst in the league).

What teams do you think have a worse TE than we do?

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by justasportsfan
I agree we need a TE. Question is, we may already have them. Seemed to me Travis Browns favorite targets were the TE's. Maybe Drew didn't have the confidence to throw it at them or Gibride just didn't want to and since Travis has been injured for most of the year, I doubt he knew Gilbrides system which is why he had success moving the ball :woeisme:

Campbell got out of Cincy because he was going to be their 3rd TE. Moore has never been anything more than a fill-in at TE and now he's older.

I think we didn't throw to them because they suck.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Campbell got out of Cincy because he was going to be their 3rd TE. Moore has never been anything more than a fill-in at TE and now he's older.

I think we didn't throw to them because they suck.

campbell was not the 3rd TE... he was number 2.. and it was in cleveland, not cincy.. and did not get out.. he got traded... just to clear that entirely incorrect statement up a bit..

i think campbell showed ALOT last year.. for a 6th round pick, he didnt drop passes.. blocked well.. and hung on to the ball after some disgusting hits he took..

like tiger said though.. he fits the first school of thought on a TE.. he is not gonzo, obviously.

shadow.. there is no way that the lions take winslow.. they are happy with their TE Ricks, who is definately a pass catcher, not a blocker.

also, i dont think that Lavalais goes in the first.. there are alot of guys in front of him.

anyone follow florida state? i really liked what i saw from dennis dockery, a 4 year starter at FSU.. he looked great, and has a been a playmaker for some time there.. he looks to be right in that same 2nd round type guy as lavalais does.. in case someone snags him early.

[R. Rich]

Originally posted by shadowfax
First of all, this is how I'm guessing the draft will fall, at this early point:

1. I think the chargers are going to take manning.
2. the Raiders will take Fitzgerald.
3. The cards will take Big Ben.
4. The Giants will take Sean Taylor
5. The Skins will take Tommie Harris.
6. The Lions will take Kellen Winslow, which sucks.
7. The falcons will take Roy Williams, who I'm not high on cuz he's knock kneed and inflexible, and then
8. The Browns will take Gallery and
9. the Jags will take DeAngelo Hall.
10. The Texans will take Starks.
11. Steelers will take Strait cuz their secondary flat blows
12. Jets will take Reggie Williams.
13. Bills will take...

Okay. At this point, considering only the major holes the Bills need to fill (WR, TE, FS, QB), the blue chippers are gone.

Some of the highly touted 1st round prospects that remain:
Wilfork, Lavalais, Vilma, DJ Williams, Clayton, JP Losman, Will Poole, Jake Grove, and some others.

If JP Losman is there, I can't imagine the Bills will want to pull the trigger on a 1st round QB, but they just might be able to pull a trade down for a 2nd round pick. So...

What do you think about the notion of the Bills trading down to a team that covets Losman, let's say...the Dolphins, who are on record as saying they're going to draft a QB on the first day (just like the Bills I guess) and then taking:

1. Lee Evans WR (fast, talented, should have healthy knees)
2a. Chad Lavalais (I saw a dominant player last night...)
2b. Ben Watson TE (Big, fast, good kid)
3. Jeb Terry, G
4. Josh Harris
5. Alex Stepanovich, G
6. Arnold Parker, S
7. Robert Kent, QB

Yes, two QB prospects because AVP is done and who on earth is convinced that TBrown can throw a TD pass? Both Harris and Kent have very different styles and skills, and in the 7th round, why not take a flyer?

Thoughts?


In that scenario, T Shawn Andrews of Arkansas is still on the board after 12 picks. I don't think that will happen, but if it does, he would be a nice pickup at 13. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing the Bills trade down to a lower pick, acquire an additional 2nd rounder, and draft DE Kenechi Udeze of USC. He was all over the place at the Rose Bowl and I would love to see him as our pass rusher.

Kent will probably NOT be around in the 7th round. He could be gone in either the 4th or 5th round, as his stock is rising.

[Jan Reimers]

Udeze and Raushon Woods would both be available in Shadow's scenario - they are rated as the 8th and 9th best overall players in a couple of listings I have seen. Both could be playmakers at areas of critical need.

I would consider Losman if he is available in the 2nd round.

[Tatonka]

losman should go before rivers.. but either of them in the second would be ok.

[R. Rich]

Originally posted by Tatonka
losman should go before rivers.. but either of them in the second would be ok.


True. What do you think of Udeze? With the way he performed in the Rose Bowl, we may have to take him with the 13th pick, if we're interested in him.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by R. Rich



True. What do you think of Udeze? With the way he performed in the Rose Bowl, we may have to take him with the 13th pick, if we're interested in him.

If we take him were interested.:snicker:

[R. Rich]

Originally posted by The Spaz
If we take him were interested.:snicker:

I was hoping we could trade down to somewhere in the 20s, pick up another 2nd rounder, and still be able to draft Udeze. It doesen't look like that's going to be possible.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by R. Rich


I was hoping we could trade down to somewhere in the 20s, pick up another 2nd rounder, and still be able to draft Udeze. It doesen't look like that's going to be possible.

I like that scenario (who wouldn't) I agree though that it is a long shot. If we get 2 2nd rnd picks one of them could be be Losman or Rivers.

[Novacane]

Originally posted by HenryRules




I'm of the opinion that if your guy isn't as good as the guy on the other team, then your guy is a weakness.




By that thinking we have upgrade 20 starting positions since we have only 2 pro-bolwers.

Campbell is just fine. We did not throw to the TE's because Kevin Gilbride is an idiot!

[R. Rich]

Originally posted by The Spaz
I like that scenario (who wouldn't) I agree though that it is a long shot. If we get 2 2nd rnd picks one of them could be be Losman or Rivers.


Exactly. We could get a pass rusher AND a QB of the future that way.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by R. Rich
True. What do you think of Udeze? With the way he performed in the Rose Bowl, we may have to take him with the 13th pick, if we're interested in him.


i thought he looked great in his bowl game.. but that is just one game.. spears looked great too.. the word is that he has alot of skill , but is young and raw.. does that mean he will be able to come in and start right away? doubt it.. just my opinion..

do we need another de that is not ready to start? i dont know.. if the guy is further ahead than that and would come right in and play.. then great.. but if he is gonna be another denny or kelsay.. then no thanks.. i would much rather have a winstrom.

his combine will obviously make him or break him, as it does with alot of juniors who have big bowl games and open alot of eyes like he did.. if he stinks up the joint at the combine, he will drop way down like rein long did last year.. if he does well, he could be a top10 pick due to the lack of good DEs in this draft.

[SABURZFAN]

Originally posted by shadowfax
First of all, this is how I'm guessing the draft will fall, at this early point:

1. I think the chargers are going to take manning.
2. the Raiders will take Fitzgerald.
3. The cards will take Big Ben.
4. The Giants will take Sean Taylor
5. The Skins will take Tommie Harris.
6. The Lions will take Kellen Winslow, which sucks.
7. The falcons will take Roy Williams, who I'm not high on cuz he's knock kneed and inflexible, and then
8. The Browns will take Gallery and
9. the Jags will take DeAngelo Hall.
10. The Texans will take Starks.
11. Steelers will take Strait cuz their secondary flat blows
12. Jets will take Reggie Williams.
13. Bills will take...


shawn andrews-T-arkansas

that would be my pick and i would be jumping for joy.:up:

[SABURZFAN]

Originally posted by R. Rich



In that scenario, T Shawn Andrews of Arkansas is still on the board after 12 picks. I don't think that will happen, but if it does, he would be a nice pickup at 13.

i was thinking the same thing Rich.:up:

[R. Rich]

Originally posted by SABURZFAN
i was thinking the same thing Rich.:up:


Only thing with Andrews is whether or not he'll stay outside at tackle. He looks to be more of a Leonard Davis type that will be better suited moving inside to guard. He's HUGE (6-5, 370!!!) and could really do some damage. His big weakness is his lack of quick feet, which combined with his size will probably make him a guard in the NFL. But, that is what we need! It's just going to mean paying a lot more for one.

[SABURZFAN]

having big mike and andrews on the same side would be awesome.that andrews kid is a monster.it wouldn't hurt my feelings if they did do that.if that scenario were to happen like you had mentioned.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green
By that thinking we have upgrade 20 starting positions since we have only 2 pro-bolwers.

Campbell is just fine. We did not throw to the TE's because Kevin Gilbride is an idiot!
Thank you...the exact point I was trying to make. We wouldn't have given him an extension if we thought he wasn't any good.

[ArcticWildMan]

We gave Teague an extension :couch:

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Tatonka


campbell was not the 3rd TE... he was number 2.. and it was in cleveland, not cincy.. and did not get out.. he got traded... just to clear that entirely incorrect statement up a bit..


Cincy was a brain fart, sorry.

Campbell was going to be 3rd last year with Heiden and Sanders starting in front of him. They signed Heiden to an extension (before trading Campbell) and traded Campbell for a lower pick than they used on Sanders just one year before - to me, that indicates they thought of him as their 3rd TE.

Also, I know he got traded ... to me, that's the same as getting out, leaving, etc.. They all involve him leaving the team. I did not mean to imply that he left as a free agent, merely that he is no longer with the team.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green



By that thinking we have upgrade 20 starting positions since we have only 2 pro-bolwers.

Campbell is just fine. We did not throw to the TE's because Kevin Gilbride is an idiot!

If we went up against the NFC pro bowl team every game, then yes, we'd have to upgrade our entire team pretty much.

I said, "if your guy isn't as good as the guy on the <i>other</i> team". I didn't say or mean to imply that he must be better than the guy at that position on <i>all</i> other teams.

Game-to-game, a player can go from being a weakness to a strength, that's why we alter game plans from game-to-game. If a guy is a weakness less than half the time, that's good enough for me.

I still stand by the fact that Campbell is one of the worst starting TE's in the league (20-30 range) meaning that he is worse than the opposition TE's most of the time. Thus, that position is a weakness.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The_Philster

Thank you...the exact point I was trying to make. We wouldn't have given him an extension if we thought he wasn't any good.

Don't forget we offered GW an extension. The topic at hand was whether TE is a "need", not whether or not TD sees it as a need.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by HenryRules
If we went up against the NFC pro bowl team every game, then yes, we'd have to upgrade our entire team pretty much.

I said, "if your guy isn't as good as the guy on the <i>other</i> team". I didn't say or mean to imply that he must be better than the guy at that position on <i>all</i> other teams.

Game-to-game, a player can go from being a weakness to a strength, that's why we alter game plans from game-to-game. If a guy is a weakness less than half the time, that's good enough for me.

I still stand by the fact that Campbell is one of the worst starting TE's in the league (20-30 range) meaning that he is worse than the opposition TE's most of the time. Thus, that position is a weakness.
I ask you this...when has Gilbride ever been one who uses the TE as a big factor?

[HenryRules]

I hope Taylor doesn't go that high ... if he's around at 10 or 11, I'd like to see us move up and take him.

I think he could have the effect on this defense that Williams had in Dallas (turning a really good defense into a great defense).

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The_Philster

I ask you this...when has Gilbride ever been one who uses the TE as a big factor?

I don't think it matters, because he's not going to be our OC next year. But, I'll answer your question and say that I don't believe it has ever happened.

As a receiver, Campbell didn't do anything in Cleveland in 2002 that Sanders or Heiden didn't do this past year.

Now, answer my question, which teams have worse starting TE's than Campbell?

[The_Philster]

That's just it. We don't know how good Campbell really is. At times he looked pretty damn good. Other times he was never involved in the game plan.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The_Philster
That's just it. We don't know how good Campbell really is. At times he looked pretty damn good. Other times he was never involved in the game plan.

What's just it?

He played in Cleveland as well and they didn't feel the need to use him.

With all the questioning of the offensive game plans that have been done by players, how many have come out and said, "We didn't use the TE's enough?"

He's in the NFL, he has to look good at times or else he wouldn't have a job. But starters are supposed to look good all (or at least most) the time, and I'm sorry, but Campbell didn't do anything that 25 other TE's in the game couldn't do (some teams have backups better than him which is why the number got bumped up).

[The_Philster]

Under Gilbride, Tony Gonzalez wouldn't have always looked good.
That's my point. We had a moron as OC.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The_Philster
Under Gilbride, Tony Gonzalez wouldn't have always looked good.
That's my point. We had a moron as OC.

Too damned repetitive ... i had the courtesy to answer your question. Please give an answer to mine.

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by HenryRules




I'm of the opinion that if your guy isn't as good as the guy on the other team, then your guy is a weakness.



I don't think Kelly was ever better than Marino , but Dan was Kelly's biotch.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Too damned repetitive ... i had the courtesy to answer your question. Please give an answer to mine.
So even under the worst coaches in the league any decent player should be good enough to look like an All-Pro? Ok...gotcha ;)

Originally posted by HenryRules
Please give an answer to mine.

Unfortunately, I never joined any FF leagues so I don't pay too much attention to the stats of those around the league but after a quick glance
I'd rate Campbell ahead of the starting TEs of Cincy, Cleveland, Oakland, San Diego, Washington, San Fran, New Orleans, Detroit, Dallas, and Carolina

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The_Philster

So even under the worst coaches in the league any decent player should be good enough to look like an All-Pro? Ok...gotcha ;)


I never said that ... but he hasn't only played under Gilbride.




Unfortunately, I never joined any FF leagues so I don't pay too much attention to the stats of those around the league but after a quick glance
I'd rate Campbell ahead of the starting TEs of Cincy, Cleveland, Oakland, San Diego, Washington, San Fran, New Orleans, Detroit, Dallas, and Carolina

Don't worry, I don't play FF (and I think FF is a horrible way to judge TE's anyway). I won't disagree with any of your picks (not that I agree with them, I just don't need to).

According to you, Campbell is about the 22nd best starting TE in the league. That's a weakness in my book.

[Lone Stranger]

Quite a nice analysis by Tiger 3 - shows some intellectual acumen.

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by Tatonka




do we need another de that is not ready to start? .

Unless we get a DE who's just as good as Julius Peppers from the draft, I'd rather we get one via FA'cy. Another DE in the 2nd rd. would be at par with Kelsay and we know people expected him to ba a 1st rounder. Yet, he couldn't beat out Denney.

Our D is last in turnovers because we don't have a DE opposite Shoebel like Taylor had Ogun. Our pass rush was decent compared to last years but it didn't really scare anyone. We should all know what happens when a D doesn't give a qb time. Keep rushing a qb, he turns into Drew. And when they turn into Drew they end up tied for last in the NFL in td's.

Instead of putting Winfield is situations to intercept, we send him tackling. Not that it was a bad thing, but he's gotten burned at times because of that too.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by HenryRules
According to you, Campbell is about the 22nd best starting TE in the league. That's a weakness in my book.

I'd like to see how he performs under coaching that actually utilizes the TE before I really rank him that low. There's a few others around the league like Riemersma, Itula Mili, and Miller of the Texans that I'd put him on par with. Under the right coordinator, he could look pretty good.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The_Philster


I'd like to see how he performs under coaching that actually utilizes the TE before I really rank him that low.

Davis has a pretty solid history of using TE's (Daniel Franks and Jeremy Shockey both came up through him at Miami). Campbell didn't do anything for him.

[justasportsfan]

you both need to get a room :D