Grey Def. Guru, Lebeau liability

[juice]

At the end of 01 season the defense bought into the defensive schemes of Gray, bringing in LeBeau was overkill. The Blitz schemes didn't work and gray's gamecalling is the reason this defense finished ranked #2. With an end to pressure opposing QB's the forced turnovers and QB sacks will lift this unit to #1.

[helmetguy]

Huh?

You're talking in circles again. LeBeau was overkill, but the zone blitz schemes didn't work? Which is it? Either LeBeau was overkill or he was window dressing. At least be consistent, whichever side you come down on.

JG is staying. Happy? I just HOPE he can keep us progressing. Only time will tell.

[juice]

Originally posted by helmetguy
Huh?

You're talking in circles again. LeBeau was overkill, but the zone blitz schemes didn't work? Which is it? Either LeBeau was overkill or he was window dressing. At least be consistent, whichever side you come down on.

JG is staying. Happy? I just HOPE he can keep us progressing. Only time will tell.

It was a bit of overkill and he wasn't needed. With the way the "D" was playing at the end of '01 why even bring in LeBeau, why the lack of confidence. We gave the guy a free paycheck, was he the Ass. head coach or a Def. asst.? This "D" would be top 3 with or without DL last season. Thats what I mean by overkill.

[helmetguy]

I really want to see what JG can do on his own. LeBeau was here for '03, and near the end of '01, this D was, um....I can only come up with unsundry expletives (Pennington juking Eddie Robison out of his jock comes to mind). When is it overkill to bring in knowlegeable personnel to assist? Had LeBeau not been brought aboard, how far do you think JG could have progressed; considering who his immediate boss was? GW may be a good DC. Anything's possible. If nothing else, LeBeau provided JG with some different perpectives on D that he might not have been able to acqire on his own. "GURU" is NOT an appellation befitting JG just yet. In time? Maybe. BTW, you can bet LeBeau earned every penny the Bills paid him.

[lunatic_bills_fan]

Originally posted by helmetguy
I really want to see what JG can do on his own. LeBeau was here for '03, and near the end of '01, this D was, um....I can only come up with unsundry expletives (Pennington juking Eddie Robison out of his jock comes to mind). When is it overkill to bring in knowlegeable personnel to assist? Had LeBeau not been brought aboard, how far do you think JG could have progressed; considering who his immediate boss was? GW may be a good DC. Anything's possible. If nothing else, LeBeau provided JG with some different perpectives on D that he might not have been able to acqire on his own. "GURU" is NOT an appellation befitting JG just yet. In time? Maybe. BTW, you can bet LeBeau earned every penny the Bills paid him.

DUDE, enough with all the big words, "appellation", "befitting", what are ya tryin to do, confuse us less edemacated ones.

[juice]

In what way did DL Zone Blitz advance this team this year? LeBeau might have helped with Takeo's transition but there was no big assault, LB blitz or corner blitz that changed any outcome of any game. The end of the season they played as a unit in '01 with Takeo and Adams the defense would have been a top 5 unit with no Lebeau.

[helmetguy]

In what way? For one, Big Sam's INT came directly as a result of a zone blitz. That certainly helped determine the outcome of a game, didn't it?

I'm wondering... how do you really KNOW that this could have been a top 5 D without LeBeau? I'll grant you, JG IS becoming a pretty good coach. There's no denying that. However, there's no discounting the fact that, having LeBeau on board, it HAD to be a positive for JG AND the team.

What would have been REALLY great was to see our offense convert more of the TOs we DID get into points. It woulda helped, too, if Winfield could have held onto a couple of those sure INTs he dropped. (Just as a little reminder)

[juice]

Returning Int. for touchdowns isn't Sams strongepoint, Dropping into coverage was good timing, sending Winfield on more corner blitzes would have been a direct result of the Zone coverages and schemes.

[helmetguy]

Good timing? Seriously Looked like a zone blitz to me (and quite a few others from waht I've heard).

There's a huge difference between zine blitz and corner blitz. You DO know that, don't you?
but, back to the original topic...

Exactly how, if we could have been a #5 defense WITHOUT LeBeau, while we WERE a #2-3 defense WITH LeBeau, does that make LeBeau a liability? Not to mention, with LeBeau's 40-odd years of experience, compared to JG's what 7-8 years, you's STILL consider JG the guru? That's just logical dyslexia!

Hey, Eb? A little help here. Can we coin a new word for "logical dyslexia?"

[juice]

Games #3-8 call the impact plays, Posey any sacks? Anyone else? Where was the Malloy Safety Blitz like week 1? The "D" was #2 where were the Blitz schemes?

[TigerJ]

I know, I know the season's over. GW and KG are gone and there's not much point in continuing to gripe about them, so we've got to find something else to argue over and complain about. Whether it was LeBeau's schematic contribution, the infusion of talent like TKO and Sam Adams, or the maturation of the players who were already here (probably all of the above in differing proportions), the defence got better this year. It's not perfect yet. Third down efficiency (stopping the bad guys) and forcing turnovers were shortcomings. But it was pretty good. Whatever exactly accounted for the improvement, Dick LeBeau is gone and Jerry Gray is here. I'm not going to mourn the loss of LeBeau. Jerry Gray has been DC for three years, two with GW looking over his shoulder, and last year with both GW and DL watching over him. Mularkey won't do that because he's an offensive guy. It's time to watch him fly solo next season. It's going to be interesting to see how he does. I'm looking forward to it.

[helmetguy]

Good questions all. Your defensive "guru" was the one calling the plays! LeBeau even said as much. If that is the case, then the scenarios you just brought up go against your original premise. Perhaps you could explain to us where LeBeau was a liability. What specifically did LeBeau do to hurt the defense? I mean #5 without him, but #3 with him was a detriment? That just doesn't make sense.

LIke I said, I give JG a lot of credit. He's come a long way. I just got done watching the comeback game against the Oilers again. You remember that one don't you? The one where JG got lit up time and again in the second half?

[juice]

Originally posted by helmetguy
Good questions all. Your defensive "guru" was the one calling the plays! LeBeau even said as much. If that is the case, then the scenarios you just brought up go against your original premise. Perhaps you could explain to us where LeBeau was a liability. What specifically did LeBeau do to hurt the defense? I mean #5 without him, but #3 with him was a detriment? That just doesn't make sense.

LIke I said, I give JG a lot of credit. He's come a long way. I just got done watching the comeback game against the Oilers again. You remember that one don't you? The one where JG got lit up time and again in the second half?

What did DL and his blitz schemes do to help us win close games?

[helmetguy]

Originally posted by juice
What did DL and his blitz schemes do to help us win close games?

You're the one who called him a liability. Do you KNOW what a liability is? Unless you can say specifically how he HURT the Defense (that's what liabilities do, BTW) then you have no arguement. I'll admit the improvement in the defense was a collaborative effort; with JG being a very big part of it. If there was improvement (which there definitely was) where in that mix can you reasonably conclude that LeBeau was harmful?

[juice]

JG looking over his shoulder at a position coach without a position and a defensive specialist at that, undermines your existing DC. Second Guessing Gray's ability to do his job is a liability. Tends to split player loyalty between coaches.

[caveboy]

My two cents for what it's worth.

Keys for Bills to improve on defense:

1) Dramatic improvement in pass rush

2) Tighter play by DBs and corners on critical 3rd downs. We gave up too many 3rd down conversions after holding teams to short yardage on 1st and 2nd.

3) ALso related to tighter play on 3rd downs, no one stayed home on 3rd-and-long, resulting in McNabb or some other 1/2-mobile QB running for a 1st-down. LB's need to stop overpursuing against mobile QBs in those instances if nobody is backing them up.


Anyway, back to the thread: The blitz should be the rule, not the exception. Regardless of who ultimately was responsible for calling them, I don't think this team blitzed nearly as much as GW said we would when he first got here. Most of the blitzes I watched seemed to be used very sparingly, and often out of hidden packages. It definitely wasn't a Blitzburgh approach where they lined up 8 almost every play and dared you to try and stop them.

I would have liked to see that a lot more than we did under GW's time here. But his attitude at times seemed to be that we would get burned if we kept blitzing. When? We didn't do it in any great amounts to get 'burned' by it.

[Demon]

Gray isn't the best ever defensive genius in the world, but even if LeBeau is better then him, it's not by much. But, if we upgrade the defense even more, then i Gray will do just fine. We need to draft a DE in the 1st round and give Gray all the tools he can get for a great overall defense. I think the offense is fine, besides a few minor free agents, as long as Mularkey gets Bledsoe to what he was 2 years ago in the first half of the season.

[Tatonka]

schobel had an INT that was a direct result of DL's zone blitz scheme.. just wanted to point that out. i am happy with gray though.

[helmetguy]

The statement was made that LeBeau was a liability to the defense. The last I knew, "liability" meant detrement, a negative.I'm sure JG and LeBeau BOTH had a lot to do with how the defense improved this past season. The problem is, the poster making the claim still can not defend his claim that LeBeau was actually harmful to the defense. I'm just asking the guy to defend his premise. Instead, he's danced all the way around it; including the fact that LeBeau even declared that JG made the defensive calls. If that is so, and if the defense didn't do more, who is then responsible? He also states that, without LeBeau, the defense was a #5 calibre unit; whereas the unit ranked #2-3 WITH LeBeau in the mix. Where's the detriment? He even refers to JG as the guru, meaning that he's the one teaching LeBeau? That's just patently absurd. If the original poster just simply doesn't like LeBeau for whatever reason, that's fine. However, once he declares an opinion as an observation, it would be great if he could defend it. Otherwise, it's sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[helmetguy]

Originally posted by Tatonka
schobel had an INT that was a direct result of DL's zone blitz scheme.. just wanted to point that out. i am happy with gray though.

Me too, tonk! I think he'll continue to develop, and working with LeBeau was a good learning experience for him. Hell, a little extra knowledge can't be a bad thing, can it?