Winfield or Clements franchise DB

[juice]

If $ becomes the major issue with Winfield do you break the bank or look to the future?

Winfield's a liability in coverage, aside from overaggressive technique, his overall size has to be an issue. Taller recievers such as Miami's pose a problem on corner routes as well as exploit suspect safety play.

Winfield's size or brick hands or something keep him from making the big pick. Two Intercepts in like two seasons is a detriment to the team at the corner position.

Clement's big play ability is apparent, he puts himself in good position to make a play on EITHER the ball or the player.

Clement's combination of soft hands, quickness to the ball and flat out speed make him a threat to take a pick back the distance any time he is thrown at.

Nate is the future of this defensive backfield, he has the tools and the natural instincts to play the position at a high level, and to more importantly continue to progress.

We might do well to bring in some size at corner if Winfield vacates for Washington. Bobby Taylor looked to be back to near form in the playoffs as well as Vincint, both are free agents.

Whether Winfield stays or not TD had better not forget who the true defensive stud corner is and expect to have to shell out some top Five #'s to keep him. Nate is a big time player who you can expect in his third year with free agency coming up, will play to that big time pay level. Expect Nate to have a Pro Bowl caliber season. ACC GT over WAKE UPSET?

[zone]

Obviosly clements man, this shouldn't even be a discussion.

Clements is a cover corner and a pretty good tackler.

Winfield can tackle, but can not cover worth *****

There are plenty of good cover DB available.

[juice]

Originally posted by zone
Obviosly clements man, this shouldn't even be a discussion.

Clements is a cover corner and a pretty good tackler.

Winfield can tackle, but can not cover worth *****

There are plenty of good cover DB available.

So do you pay Winfield this year or go after a Bobby Taylor who wont be looking for top corner #'s coming off injury, and make sure you keep Clements Big play ability around next year?

It's not just discussion its also strategy. ACC GT

[helmetguy]

Vincent (13 yrs) and Taylor (10 yrs) are getting long in the tooth and would be, at best, a stop-gap measure if Winfield signs elsewhere. Terrence McGee did well in his rookie year, and gained considerable experience in the process. That could be what TD was thinking when he drafted him in the fourth round last year. Why not commit our FA expenditures to the positions where we have glaring needs? OG or C in particular.

[zone]

I get rid of winfield now. He is not only a terrible coverage reciever, he is only worried about himself and his stats rather than the team and wins.

I think he is the best tackling corner in the league, maybee he missed his calling. SS maybee?

[Ebenezer]

Ty Law will be released...bring him here...say bye-bye to Winfield.

[zone]

T.McGee is one of the best players on this team. and he is only a rookie!

[zone]

Originally posted by Ebenezer
Ty Law will be released...bring him here...say bye-bye to Winfield.

My thoughts exactly, him and milloy are friends and work very well togather, he whould be a huge boost for this team!

[juice]

Originally posted by Ebenezer
Ty Law will be released...bring him here...say bye-bye to Winfield.

Law is a Baller and didn't seem too thrilled with the Milloy situation, with him being the cornerstone of that Defense, you dont think NE will go ahead and pay him?

[zone]

Originally posted by juice
Law is a Baller and didn't seem to thrilled with the Milloy situation, with him being the cornerstone of that Defense, you dont think NE will go ahead and pay him?

They can't afford him. They are already in cap trouble....

[elltrain22]

If i had to choose i would choose Clements. Nate Clements, in my opinion, is on the verge of becoming one of the great corners in the league, but there has always been something just holding him back. I do want to see Winfield in a bills unie next year, but i really would wholeheartedly except the idea of getting rid of Winfield and signing Ty Law.

[Billsbabee]

Keep Clements. Winfield can go, Law would be sweet

[saviorbledsoe]

I wouldnt be surpsised to see TD trying to extend Clements' contract this offseason.

[Earthquake Enyart]

There are a lot of good FA CB's this year. No need to break the bank for Winfield. If we could get him back at a decent price, I'm all for it. If we're gonna spend big bucks, get McAllister.

[juice]

Originally posted by saviorbledsoe
I wouldnt be surpsised to see TD trying to extend Clements' contract this offseason.

That might be a good idea, because if he has another season like '02 I could see his price jumping dramatically.

[Billsouth]

bye bye antoine "stone hands" winfield.

i say we only keep him if he moves to safety. we then sign ty law and have a secondary of law, clements, milloy, winfield and mcghee/thomas as the nickel/dime.

sound pretty good? i know it wont happen but it sounds good

[juice]

Originally posted by Billsouth
bye bye antoine "stone hands" winfield.

i say we only keep him if he moves to safety. we then sign ty law and have a secondary of law, clements, milloy, winfield and mcghee/thomas as the nickel/dime.

sound pretty good? i know it wont happen but it sounds good

One too many SS's and 5'10 DB's

[Devin]

Originally posted by Ebenezer
Ty Law will be released...bring him here...say bye-bye to Winfield.

ding ding ding we have a weiner!

Absolutley man. Keep Clemenets next season. I ddint realize he was a FA next season lol.

[juice]

Originally posted by Billsouth
bye bye antoine "stone hands" winfield.

i say we only keep him if he moves to safety. we then sign ty law and have a secondary of law, clements, milloy, winfield and mcghee/thomas as the nickel/dime.

sound pretty good? i know it wont happen but it sounds good

Law will want top Three type #'s, not exactly a bargain when you already have Winfield and another stud to resign next season.

[Michael82]

Clements is NOT a free agent until AFTER the 2005 season. He has two more seasons to go. I'd leave him alone for now, unless you can get a cheap extension.

http://www.nflpa.org/Members/playerProfile.asp?ID=30107

[Michael82]

Pat Williams and Jonas Jennings are free agents AFTER the 2004 season. We need to work on a new contract for both of them, IMO.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by zone
T.McGee is one of the best players on this team. and he is only a rookie!

Wow.

[Michael82]

Oh man, Aaron Schobel's contract expires AFTER 2004, too. We need to work on signing players to extensions, this offseason, IMO.

[zone]

Originally posted by billsfanone
Wow.

You don't agree?

He is the best special teams player we have seen since tasker... he was down on 85% of tackles.

He can return kicks very well

He was 2nd on the team in picks, with very limited play.

He is just an all around darn good athlete. IMO one of the most versitile and best on the team.

[Devin]

yup i need to have a look at that list didnt realize so many were coming up soon.

[the dude]

that the prevailing sentiment on this board is that Clements is better than Winfield. I guess I was watching different games than all of you.

Now if you said Clements might one day be great, then maybe I'll buy into it. Personally, I think he regressed badly this year and based on his performance in most games, he wouldn't be the number 2 CB on half the teams in the league.

That being said, I don't think you pay Winfield anything better than top 15 CB money because, while he may be the best tackling corner in all of football, he does not make as many game changing plays as the Ty Laws or Champ Baileys.

Some of the smack people are laying on Winfield is wholly undeserved. Look, last year when Jerry Gray schemed the D to put Winfield on Gonzales in the KC game, he completely shut him down. Just because he's small does not mean he can't cover. Troy Brown of NE thinks he's the toughest corner to play against. Most teams tend to throw away from Winfield because Clements can be easily abused because he plays a high risk, high reward game. Smart QBs and coaches eat this stuff up. Again, some of this is because Nate seemed to pick up bad habits again.

Realistically, while I'd rather keep AW, I think this is a good year to pick up a free agent corner - like a Bobby Taylor to tide us over while McGee or another youngster develops. I just don't see how people can ignore all of Clements' gaffes this past year and denigrate Winfield's contributions.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by zone
You don't agree?

He is the best special teams player we have seen since tasker... he was down on 85% of tackles.

He can return kicks very well

He was 2nd on the team in picks, with very limited play.

He is just an all around darn good athlete. IMO one of the most versitile and best on the team.


He should go into the HOF!!!

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by the dude
that the prevailing sentiment on this board is that Clements is better than Winfield. I guess I was watching different games than all of you.

Now if you said Clements might one day be great, then maybe I'll buy into it. Personally, I think he regressed badly this year and based on his performance in most games, he wouldn't be the number 2 CB on half the teams in the league.

That being said, I don't think you pay Winfield anything better than top 15 CB money because, while he may be the best tackling corner in all of football, he does not make as many game changing plays as the Ty Laws or Champ Baileys.

Some of the smack people are laying on Winfield is wholly undeserved. Look, last year when Jerry Gray schemed the D to put Winfield on Gonzales in the KC game, he completely shut him down. Just because he's small does not mean he can't cover. Troy Brown of NE thinks he's the toughest corner to play against. Most teams tend to throw away from Winfield because Clements can be easily abused because he plays a high risk, high reward game. Smart QBs and coaches eat this stuff up. Again, some of this is because Nate seemed to pick up bad habits again.

Realistically, while I'd rather keep AW, I think this is a good year to pick up a free agent corner - like a Bobby Taylor to tide us over while McGee or another youngster develops. I just don't see how people can ignore all of Clements' gaffes this past year and denigrate Winfield's contributions.

Now this I agree with!

[juice]

Clements plays his position, to defend the pass 1st then make the stick. Two years ago he played near Pro Bowl level, last year ineffective Safety play alot of times left him out on an island.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by the dude
that the prevailing sentiment on this board is that Clements is better than Winfield. I guess I was watching different games than all of you.

Now if you said Clements might one day be great, then maybe I'll buy into it. Personally, I think he regressed badly this year and based on his performance in most games, he wouldn't be the number 2 CB on half the teams in the league.

That being said, I don't think you pay Winfield anything better than top 15 CB money because, while he may be the best tackling corner in all of football, he does not make as many game changing plays as the Ty Laws or Champ Baileys.

Some of the smack people are laying on Winfield is wholly undeserved. Look, last year when Jerry Gray schemed the D to put Winfield on Gonzales in the KC game, he completely shut him down. Just because he's small does not mean he can't cover. Troy Brown of NE thinks he's the toughest corner to play against. Most teams tend to throw away from Winfield because Clements can be easily abused because he plays a high risk, high reward game. Smart QBs and coaches eat this stuff up. Again, some of this is because Nate seemed to pick up bad habits again.

Realistically, while I'd rather keep AW, I think this is a good year to pick up a free agent corner - like a Bobby Taylor to tide us over while McGee or another youngster develops. I just don't see how people can ignore all of Clements' gaffes this past year and denigrate Winfield's contributions.


Originally posted by billsfanone
Now this I agree with!

Same here. Everyone's down on Antoine's coverage yet I don't know of many corners in the league that could cover a guy when he's forced to play 7-10 yards off the LOS. Antoine is consistently in Prevent mode

[the dude]

Originally posted by juice
Clements plays his position, to defend the pass 1st then make the stick. Two years ago he played near Pro Bowl level, last year ineffective Safety play alot of times left him out on an island.

So let me get this straight, Juice - you're saying that Lawyer Milloy and Izell Reeses or Prioleau were a worse combination than last year's Coy Wire/ Prioleau combo? I'm not sure many people would agree with you there - except Wys with his Coy-colored glasses.

The difference between Antoine and Nate this year was that when Winfield got beat, it usually took some great throws and catches (Usually!! - I do actually remember 2 plays when he got beat clearly). However, Nate got schooled out of his shorts at least a half dozen times with "stop and go" routes - and at crucial times.

Great throws and catches to beat you I can live with - that makes Winfield a good cover/great tackler corner. This year's performance by Nate puts him in the potentially good cover/potentially good tackler position. I'll give him a pass this year, and even though the overall defense was much better than last, his performance needs to improve by an order of magnitude to reach the class of elite corner. On his side, though, is that he obviously has the raw tools to get there.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by the dude
that the prevailing sentiment on this board is that Clements is better than Winfield. I guess I was watching different games than all of you.

Now if you said Clements might one day be great, then maybe I'll buy into it. Personally, I think he regressed badly this year and based on his performance in most games, he wouldn't be the number 2 CB on half the teams in the league.

That being said, I don't think you pay Winfield anything better than top 15 CB money because, while he may be the best tackling corner in all of football, he does not make as many game changing plays as the Ty Laws or Champ Baileys.

Some of the smack people are laying on Winfield is wholly undeserved. Look, last year when Jerry Gray schemed the D to put Winfield on Gonzales in the KC game, he completely shut him down. Just because he's small does not mean he can't cover. Troy Brown of NE thinks he's the toughest corner to play against. Most teams tend to throw away from Winfield because Clements can be easily abused because he plays a high risk, high reward game. Smart QBs and coaches eat this stuff up. Again, some of this is because Nate seemed to pick up bad habits again.

Realistically, while I'd rather keep AW, I think this is a good year to pick up a free agent corner - like a Bobby Taylor to tide us over while McGee or another youngster develops. I just don't see how people can ignore all of Clements' gaffes this past year and denigrate Winfield's contributions.


I agree too :beer:

[juice]

Originally posted by the dude
So let me get this straight, Juice - you're saying that Lawyer Milloy and Izell Reeses or Prioleau were a worse combination than last year's Coy Wire/ Prioleau combo? I'm not sure many people would agree with you there - except Wys with his Coy-colored glasses.

The difference between Antoine and Nate this year was that when Winfield got beat, it usually took some great throws and catches (Usually!! - I do actually remember 2 plays when he got beat clearly). However, Nate got schooled out of his shorts at least a half dozen times with "stop and go" routes - and at crucial times.

Great throws and catches to beat you I can live with - that makes Winfield a good cover/great tackler corner. This year's performance by Nate puts him in the potentially good cover/potentially good tackler position. I'll give him a pass this year, and even though the overall defense was much better than last, his performance needs to improve by an order of magnitude to reach the class of elite corner. On his side, though, is that he obviously has the raw tools to get there.

I'm saying Neither combination of Safeties was adequate and both corners will continue to get beat by good throws unless the Bills address the issue of safeties and the size or lack of they have in the DBackfield. God help these DB's if they have to face a R. Moss.
A corners primary responsibility is to defend the pass, Winfield plays like a S. Safety with less picks than most LBs.

Quality Safety play will free Nate up to be the playmaker of Two years ago and to make plays on the ball.

[DraftBoy]

Alot of you guys are making it out to seem like hes the next Charles Woodson here is the truth, the guy is a good corner who gambles too much. Occasionally he'll make the right play and come away with the pick but more often then not, he wont and he gets toasted. I love Clements and I hope that he gets another 6 INT year, but you talk about him like hes Champ Bailey or Rod Woodson for christ sake. We better resign Winfield or a CB of better quality b.c he is the one who locks down the opposing #1 WR, and I think TD knows it. Maybe its time we all figured it out too.