Lets keep Winfield!

[ShadowHawk7]

Winfield is a much better cover man than u guyz will give him credit for. He's also the best tackling corner in the whole league. If he's worth his salt, he'll resign for not too much, cuz he knows how full the market is. Winfield has shut many great recievers. So wut that he makes one pick a year. The person I'd like to see step up wud be Clements. I'd say AT LEAST 6 picks next year, or he's gone. A 7-pick Clements wud be the PERFECT complement to Winfield. NC is a physical conver who makes plays, but should make more. He's a good pash rusher, very good in run coverage, good in coverage, and a pretty good tackler. Terrance Mcgee also plays in the equation. A very sure tackler and blitzer, who also made 2 very cool picks, showing excellent potential. One of my new fav. players. Needs to work on covering and run coverage skills, but i think that'll come naturally. Also a great special teamer both as a gunner, and returner; showing he'll do wutever to help his team. Come 2005, Winfield gets a pick or two, Clements gets 6 and a TD, Mcgee gets 2 or 3, and Milloy gets 2, and we got a effin scary secondary!!!:rocker:

I can't wait for next year. :popcorn:

[LtBillsFan66]

I'm with you man! :up:

I'll add that he's taken a lot of hear for "not really wanting to play in Buffalo."

But every quote I read, indicates that he likes it here and wants to stay.

One quote of his, "I want to play for a contender" is always brought up. Well he didn't say he wouldn't play for the Bills. He said he wants to go to the playoffs. It was more out of frustration than a jab at the Bills./

[Marvelous]

Originally posted by billsfanone
But every quote I read, indicates that he likes it here and wants to stay.

I've seen him after a couple games (Simon Cast) and his attutude was poor at best.
Other teams will want him for his tackling skills regardless of the market. I'm done with him.
Cmon guys you saw him get tourched last season.... I'm not a Winfield hater, i just want a CB who can generate picks not tackle. Clements is a solid tackler imo...

[kgun12]

I say keep him also, IF he isn't looking for top 5 money. Top 10 ok, his lack of interceptions hurts him making top 5 money. If we are going to pay top 5 money, I want it all, tackles interceptions, pass breakups, coveage shills, everything! There are CB's out there that do all that. Winfield has all the qualities I mentioned, BUT interceptions and that's the big missing in his paly!

[Marvelous]

I disagree about him being the total package - int's
He gets burned more then a little bit. And the int's are a big deal.
How long ago was that NE game when he had one?

[kgun12]

Originally posted by Sippio
I disagree about him being the total package - int's
He gets burned more then a little bit. And the int's are a big deal.
How long ago was that NE game when he had one?

All CB's get burned now and again. It's just the nature of the position. How many times have you heard from the booth. CB's have to have short memories? He doesn't get burned that much.

[Marvelous]

We need a stat guru for some CB stats.

[kgun12]

TACKLES INTERCEPTIONS FUMBLE REC
Player G Total Solo Assts Sacks No Yds Avg TD No TD

Antoine Winfield 16 124 109 15 1.0 1 11 11.0 0 0 0
Chris Mcalister 15 53 43 10 0.0 3 93 31.0 1 0 0
Champ Bailey 16 75 71 4 0.0 2 2 1.0 0 2 0

[Marvelous]

109 solo is impressive. We need stats on his coverage. lol good luck finding those.

[BADTHINGSMAN]

That last game against NE, Clements got shown up by Givens, as Givens just pushed Clements away and made a TD.. Clements needs to tackle better and Winfield needs to get some INT's.. If Buffalo is gonna pay top 5 CB money then it better be to either Law or Bailey..

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by kgun12
All CB's get burned now and again.

More so when they are playing Prevent. I think the Winfield bashers haven't watched him play all that much...either that or they think that 7-10 yards off the LOS is the customary spot for a CB to play in. :scratch:

[don137]

No way Winfield deserves top 5 money. He is probably one of the best at his position in tackling but is very mediocre in coverage and one of the worst in the league at INTs. You add it up and he deserves to be paid somewhere in the 10-15 spot at his position. While his skills would be missed, he is not the type of player you break the bank to re-sign.

[Pride]

F' Winfield! Don't let the door hit ya on the way out. He is the most overrated TACKLING CB in the league.

He couldnt catch a ball if he had duct tape for hands!

[wbat27]

I want champ for that kind of money he is the best in the league

[ryven]

personally if winfield was able to play closer to the LOS he would be able to jam him at the line and slow down the WR again our CB played 10 yards off the line and by that time WR could be running at full speed.

[DraftBoy]

I say we keep him. The argument on coverage goes both ways since we dont got stats to say how he did. I thought he looked good in coverage, and is one of the best tackling corners in the league.

Pride how is his tackling overrated? 109 solo tackles in one season thats damn impressive for a CB and hes very consistent on it too, unliek Clements who just gets shoved away by a #3 or #4 WR in Givens.

[TedMock]

Winfield has bad hands. He dropped quite a few picks last season. However, he is our best cover guy. Clements takes more chances so he'll get more picks but he also gets beat more often. I'd like to keep both of them for a long time because I really do think that they're both very solid. Each has strengths and weaknesses but straight coverage is NOT a weakness for either.

[Pride]

Winfield has so many tackles because his WR is always catching the ball. It's great that he makes the tackle immediately after the catch, but I would rather have an incompletion.

Once again, stats do NOT tell the whole story.

[Pride]

Originally posted by TedMock
Each has strengths and weaknesses but straight coverage is NOT a weakness for either.

What games were you watching where coverage was tight?

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Pride
Winfield has so many tackles because his WR is always catching the ball. It's great that he makes the tackle immediately after the catch, but I would rather have an incompletion.

Once again, stats do NOT tell the whole story.

A lot of his tackles are on run support.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I would love for him to stay. If he does go we better sign someone with experience because I am not sold on Mcgee.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Pride
Winfield has so many tackles because his WR is always catching the ball. It's great that he makes the tackle immediately after the catch, but I would rather have an incompletion.

Once again, stats do NOT tell the whole story.


What games are you watching is my question....Most of his tackles come on run support, also do you not think that the fact that we never had the CB up on the line had anything to do with the WR catching the ball sometimes. I can tell you that while I did not see many games (like 4) in every game I watched his coverage was often very tight and alot better than that of clements. Especially against Chambers in MIA, where he got beat for a touchdown but Chamber had to make one hell of a catch due to the good coverage from AW. I may be giving him mor credit than he deserves but I think you highly underestimate his talents and what he brings to this team, if we let him and go and dont sign Bailey or Woodson who is gonna shut down the opposing teams #1 WR? Clements still hasnt earned the job and hes supposedly much better than AW in alot of your minds. Our DC is still Jerry Gray and I think hed like to keep his CB's in tack since they compliment each other so well.

[ShadowHawk7]

Originally posted by don137
No way Winfield deserves top 5 money. He is probably one of the best at his position in tackling but is very mediocre in coverage and one of the worst in the league at INTs. You add it up and he deserves to be paid somewhere in the 10-15 spot at his position. While his skills would be missed, he is not the type of player you break the bank to re-sign.

Why wud u say he's a mediocre coverer? Give me sum good examples on wen he got burned multiple times. And don't even try the Tennessse game.

[ShadowHawk7]

Winfield 26 is right about AW and NC complementing each other. Winfield is a SOLID coverer (give me sum examples of wen he got burnt several times) that doesn't make plays too often, b/c he doesn't gamble. NC is a very physical corner, that gambles, and makes the play once in awhile. And his coverage and tackling skills are slightly lower than Winfield. I reely think NC has to step up in 2004.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by billsfanone
A lot of his tackles are on run support.

agreed.

[ryven]

Originally posted by Winfield_26



What games are you watching is my question....Most of his tackles come on run support, also do you not think that the fact that we never had the CB up on the line had anything to do with the WR catching the ball sometimes. I can tell you that while I did not see many games (like 4) in every game I watched his coverage was often very tight and alot better than that of clements. Especially against Chambers in MIA, where he got beat for a touchdown but Chamber had to make one hell of a catch due to the good coverage from AW. I may be giving him mor credit than he deserves but I think you highly underestimate his talents and what he brings to this team, if we let him and go and dont sign Bailey or Woodson who is gonna shut down the opposing teams #1 WR? Clements still hasnt earned the job and hes supposedly much better than AW in alot of your minds. Our DC is still Jerry Gray and I think hed like to keep his CB's in tack since they compliment each other so well.

Agreed

[TedMock]

Originally posted by Pride


What games were you watching where coverage was tight?

Anytime he was allowed to cover, he did. I'm impressed with his coverage skills and feel that he's way underrated. Now, where he shows weaknesses are: 1. his hands and 2. zone coverage. Watch him when he plays straight up vs. when he's 5 yards off. Being 5'9" does make it tougher for him to stop things in front when he plays zone but he also had many opportunities for INT's this year that he dropped. He's awesome when he's up in your face from the get-go because he does a great job jamming. Of course he's been beat downfield a few times, no corner in the league hasn't been. Clement's, whom I also like, gets beat more often because of his style. He's also more likely to come up with a pick because of it. A good free safety and good DE's would help both tremendously. Everybody around the leauge love Champ Bailey in Washington. I live here and have attended a few games over the years. I've seen Champ get burned a few times too. It always looks worse when Buffalo, though!

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Pride
Winfield has so many tackles because his WR is always catching the ball. It's great that he makes the tackle immediately after the catch, but I would rather have an incompletion.

Once again, stats do NOT tell the whole story.
They obviously don't. They sure as hell don't show how he was consistently lined up in Prevent. It would take a remarkable CB like, say Deion Sanders, to be able to keep up with a WR all the way down the field without getting the opportunity to jam the WR at the LOS....something that CBs should all be doing.

[Bert102176]

I would like him to stay also but I think he is only worth about the top 7 to 8th best at his position because of lack of the Int's.

[Bert102176]

but I really hate how they played the prevent D and hope to god they stop that crap I wanna see them being agressive at the line of scrimage and bumping the WR's

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Bert102176
but I really hate how they played the prevent D and hope to god they stop that crap I wanna see them being agressive at the line of scrimage and bumping the WR's

If they let him be more aggressive, his Int totals would likely rise.

[elltrain22]

I hope we can keep Winfield. He has been solid at his position, and i believe he and NC form one of the best young cb tandom's in the nfl.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The_Philster


If they let him be more aggressive, his Int totals would likely rise.

His coverage may improve, but he will never get more interceptions.

He only got 3 in college and he's only gotten 6 in the NFL so far (so that's 9 in 8 seasons incl. college).

If there's one thing you can be sure about Winfield, it's that he's not the sort of CB that will get picks.

At some point in time, people have to stop blaming Winfield's lack of picks on: team's avoiding him, coverage schemes, lack of luck, whatever. The guy can't catch the ball. That's it.

Now, his coverage is good ... not top-5, but good. His tackling is great. Overall, he's a good, not great CB. If he leaves and we don't pick up someone else, we're in trouble ... but he's definitely not irreplaceable considering who is available.

[STAMPY]

Originally posted by HenryRules


His coverage may improve, but he will never get more interceptions.

He only got 3 in college and he's only gotten 6 in the NFL so far (so that's 9 in 8 seasons incl. college).

If there's one thing you can be sure about Winfield, it's that he's not the sort of CB that will get picks.

At some point in time, people have to stop blaming Winfield's lack of picks on: team's avoiding him, coverage schemes, lack of luck, whatever. The guy can't catch the ball. That's it.

Now, his coverage is good ... not top-5, but good. His tackling is great. Overall, he's a good, not great CB. If he leaves and we don't pick up someone else, we're in trouble ... but he's definitely not irreplaceable considering who is available.


totally agree with ya. great points. i actually prefer clements. i rather sign law or champ or vincent. and keep nate around too

[Dozerdog]

Buffalo has had zero pass rush since Bruce Smith left.


Ever since, this defense has played very cautious in pass coverage. They play not to get burned by the big play. Last Year, with the LBers to compliment our good CB's- we strangled teams' attempts to move the ball and score.

The lack of turnovers are a direct result of the pass rush.


Look at one of the Best CB's in Buffalo history- Robert James (Early 1970's) went to the pro bowl every year despite only a handful of picks every season. Why? Because he was so good- no one threw at him.

http://www.billszone.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/timezone/1969-1978/RJamesBuf_186x250.jpg

[ShadowHawk7]

Originally posted by Bert102176
I would like him to stay also but I think he is only worth about the top 7 to 8th best at his position because of lack of the Int's.

Agreed, which is why he shud want and shud be paid top 7-12 CB money.

[ShadowHawk7]

Originally posted by BuffaloBillsSTAMPEDE



totally agree with ya. great points. i actually prefer clements. i rather sign law or champ or vincent. and keep nate around too

Why wud u say that u'd rather keep NC over AW?? Our "big play guy" made 3 picks this year, and got burnt hell lot more than AW. I still like NC tho, and i'm not knocking him on nething, except if he's a gambler, I'd like to see sum more results. O yea, sum1 pound Pride 4 me.
:hammeru: :stone: :chair:

[ShadowHawk7]

Originally posted by elltrain22
I hope we can keep Winfield. He has been solid at his position, and i believe he and NC form one of the best young cb tandom's in the nfl.

Definitley agreed! :beer: ;)

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
The lack of turnovers are a direct result of the pass rush.


Turnovers may increase with a better pass rush ... but our pass rush wasn't bad. We were 9th in the NFL in sacks last year.

The following teams had less sacks but more interceptions:
Chicago
Houston
Arizona
Jacksonville
Oakland
Washington
Detroit
San Diego
Cincinatti
Indianapolis
Dallas
New Orleans
Green Bay
Pittsburgh
Jets
Cleveland
Kansas City
Atlanta
Tampa Bay
Minnesota

Not really the shortest list.

[Dozerdog]

Seriously, though-

How many times do you remember the past few seasons the Bills actually putting heat on the QB on a consistent basis?


Sack numbers and other stats (as we have learned) can be twisted. Getting a ton in a handful of games and going non-existant in a half dozen or more can skew the numbers.

How many of those teams above got torched on long TD passes compared to the Bills? I remember only a handfull of long TDs against Buffalo- Those other teams got lit up regularly.

Sure- they got more interceptions- but they gave up a crapload of yards and points.

Cause and effect

[HenryRules]

Look, we were second-last overall in the NFL in interceptions.

I don't think that we had the 2nd worst pass-rush.

Schoebel is a top-15 pass rushing end. Adams and Williams are a good tandem at collapsing the pocket. LE we were lacking, but we definitely were not the worst pass rushing team, but we were almost the worst team at interceptions.

The purpose of hte list was to show how many teams had more interceptions than us ... you can't possibly think that all those 20 (give or take) teams had worse pass rushes.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by HenryRules


Turnovers may increase with a better pass rush ... but our pass rush wasn't bad. We were 9th in the NFL in sacks last year.

The following teams had less sacks but more interceptions:
Chicago
Houston
Arizona
Jacksonville
Oakland
Washington
Detroit
San Diego
Cincinatti
Indianapolis
Dallas
New Orleans
Green Bay
Pittsburgh
Jets
Cleveland
Kansas City
Atlanta
Tampa Bay
Minnesota

Not really the shortest list.

Worse Pass Rush:
Chicago-yes
Houston-yes
Arizona-yes
Jacksonville-yes
Oakland-yes
Washington-no
Detroit-yes
San Diego-yes
Cincinatti-no
Indianapolis-no
Dallas-yes
New Orleans-yes
Green Bay-no
Pittsburgh-no
Jets-yes
Cleveland-yes
Kansas City-yes
Atlanta-yes
Tampa Bay-no
Minnesota-no


13 out of 20 with worse pass rush IMO. Still yet more INT's. I agree with Dozer about the stats being skewed.

[Marvelous]

Originally posted by ShadowHawk7


Why wud u say that u'd rather keep NC over AW?? Our "big play guy" made 3 picks this year, and got burnt hell lot more than AW. I still like NC tho, and i'm not knocking him on nething, except if he's a gambler, I'd like to see sum more results. O yea, sum1 pound Pride 4 me.
:hammeru: :stone: :chair:
NC did have a off season. I just hope AW stays out of the East...
AW may be that good at coverage but imo He id not the kind of CB we need.....

Crooklyn Balla is that you?

[ShadowHawk7]

Whoze, Crookyn Balla? I'm still waiting for sum examples of wen AW got burned badly often in one game.

[Marvelous]

Originally posted by BuffaloBillsSTAMPEDE



totally agree with ya. great points. i actually prefer clements. i rather sign law or champ or vincent. and keep nate around too
Law and Champ i agree. Vincent is past his prime imo.
Clements is a solid #2 and Mcgee is a solid #3, soon to be #2 imo. I agree that Winfield leaving puts us in a situation. But we are guaranteed mote turnovers :)

I'm still new here and i was just um wondering about your signature BBStampede..??

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Seriously, though-

How many times do you remember the past few seasons the Bills actually putting heat on the QB on a consistent basis?


Sack numbers and other stats (as we have learned) can be twisted. Getting a ton in a handful of games and going non-existant in a half dozen or more can skew the numbers.

How many of those teams above got torched on long TD passes compared to the Bills? I remember only a handfull of long TDs against Buffalo- Those other teams got lit up regularly.

Sure- they got more interceptions- but they gave up a crapload of yards and points.

Cause and effect

:up:

Great post!