The "R" Word

[The_Philster]

By Mark Weiler, Bills Report
Things appear to be a bit tentative in Buffalo these days. If you ask varying groups of fans on one hand for the upcoming season the Bills are expected to compete. Some are expecting all things to click perfectly. Others are more wisely aware that in all likelihood, everything will not go exactly as planned and foretold by a seemingly overconfident coaching staff and GM. Many factors can alter a season for better or worse.

It is partly understandable that the front office wants to hype the team for the upcoming season. Afterall, no one wants to see less than a full boat for each home game. The fans are unarguably an integral part of home field performance, particularly in Buffalo. As was pointed out in my last piece however, there are certainly issues associated with over-hyping the team. ...
more (http://bills.theinsiders.com/2/249062.html)

I really don't see people over-hyping things. :shakeno:

[The Spaz]

I'm sure I have read it already...

[BigZ]

Just finished reading the article.

I don't get the same feeling of the team being hyped. Yea, I'm optimistic and would love to see Mularkey get the team to 9 or 10 wins. I also know that this coming year will be a transition. I think we will be disappointed if they don't win at least 6.

More importantly, we'll all be disappointed if the guys don't give it their all every game.

[Voltron]

I do see some of the hype. I mean Sam Wyche saying drew still has all the tools when he hasn't played decent in about 5 years. That to me was over hype. I have not seen Malarkey hype anything but saying that we are going to be a run first team. We have all heard that for 3 years. I will believe it when I see it. I think people need to get off Marks back and remember that while he writes these columns and does use all fact. Much is his opinion. we are all entitled to our opinion here, or last I knew at least :huh:

[clumping platelets]

Nothing wrong with opinion but how many times can you write the same thing? :shakeno:

He's all negative :down:

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Voltron
I do see some of the hype. I mean Sam Wyche saying drew still has all the tools when he hasn't played decent in about 5 years. That to me was over hype. I have not seen Malarkey hype anything but saying that we are going to be a run first team. We have all heard that for 3 years. I will believe it when I see it. I think people need to get off Marks back and remember that while he writes these columns and does use all fact. Much is his opinion. we are all entitled to our opinion here, or last I knew at least :huh:

Sam Wyche has been in the NFL and is well respected and has faith in his capabilities that's not over-hype.

[bills_7]

Originally posted by zielinski
I think we will be disappointed if they don't win at least 6.

More importantly, we'll all be disappointed if the guys don't give it their all every game.

I will be disappointed if they dont make the playoffs....

We r as good as any team on paper.... lets just hope we can bring it on to the field!

[Voltron]

I don't think so. I see him as a realist. He also said the D was a solid unit last year with the RDE being the only very large need we need to fill. That is not a negative comment. I have seen many people here say the same thing. How is he being negative? He is trying to keep the hype to a min. and I have to say I agree with him to an extent. Too many people think that MM and TC and SW have some magic wand that is going to fix Drews play and that is just being over optimistic and I know you would agree CP.

[The Spaz]

RDE is fine it's the LDE that that is the problem.

[Voltron]

yeah i noticed that about 2 seconds after I posted and you beat me to fixing it :(

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by The Spaz


Sam Wyche has been in the NFL and is well respected and has faith in his capabilities that's not over-hype.

Wyche maybe a respected coach but when you go and say a player that hasnt played consistently well in 5 seasons is due I think its overhyping it abit.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by DraftBoy


Wyche maybe a respected coach but when you go and say a player that hasnt played consistently well in 5 seasons is due I think its overhyping it abit.

He thinks he can do it so to him it's not over-hype maybe to us it is.

[DraftBoy]

Well Williams said he could make this team a playoff team and that now seems lile hype. I think we as fans have a certain right to be questioning what our new coaches are saying after all the broken promises of the last regime.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
Well Williams said he could make this team a playoff team and that now seems lile hype. I think we as fans have a certain right to be questioning what our new coaches are saying after all the broken promises of the last regime.

Like I said to us it may be hype but to them they don't see themselves failing, nor should they.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by The Spaz


Like I said to us it may be hype but to them they don't see themselves failing, nor should they.

Either did the last group of coaches

[Michael82]

Originally posted by Voltron
I think people need to get off Marks back and remember that while he writes these columns and does use all fact. Much is his opinion. we are all entitled to our opinion here, or last I knew at least :huh:

This is the thing I have a problem with. Mark is not "Wys" the poster anymore. People critique his articles and his viewpoints, thats the same thing as saying Mel Kiper sucks, he can't predict anything right. Or how about when John Clayton or Len P from ESPN says something about the team and everyone bashes them or their article. What is wrong with critiquing Mark Weiler's articles? Its the same difference. I like Mark as a friend, but I disagree with some of the stuff in his articles and I don't see why I am not allowed to give my opinions? It's not getting on his back...it's just stating our comments about the work and our opinions. I do that in person sometimes, we get heated over an issue (the TD being overrated stuff) and he has no problem with me giving him critiques or telling him my opinion.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
Well Williams said he could make this team a playoff team and that now seems lile hype. I think we as fans have a certain right to be questioning what our new coaches are saying after all the broken promises of the last regime.

the broken promises of the last idiot group of coaches have nothing to do with this new group of idiot coaches.

:D

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by DraftBoy


Either did the last group of coaches

Yeah but should they say they're going to fail? I'm sure coaching staffs will get a lot of backing saying well we're not sure etc.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Mikey82


This is the thing I have a problem with. Mark is not "Wys" the poster anymore. People critique his articles and his viewpoints, thats the same thing as saying Mel Kiper sucks, he can't predict anything right. Or how about when John Clayton or Len P from ESPN says something about the team and everyone bashes them or their article. What is wrong with critiquing Mark Weiler's articles? Its the same difference. I like Mark as a friend, but I disagree with some of the stuff in his articles and I don't see why I am not allowed to give my opinions? It's not getting on his back...it's just stating our comments about the work and our opinions. I do that in person sometimes, we get heated over an issue (the TD being overrated stuff) and he has no problem with me giving him critiques or telling him my opinion.

I agree with that mikey but some posters have taken it too far and go on into person bashing and insults and thats not needed, simply stating your opinion if it agrees or is in disagreement with Mark is fine but some cross the line.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka


the broken promises of the last idiot group of coaches have nothing to do with this new group of idiot coaches.

:D

Well said!

[Michael82]

Personally, I don't think the team is anything close to overhyped. The team has a TON of talent, however this is the first year for Mike Mularkey coaching, and the the first year with the coaching staff and the new systems. I expect it to take some time for them to meld. I'm expecting AT LEAST 7-9. :D

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by The Spaz


Yeah but should they say they're going to fail? I'm sure coaching staffs will get a lot of backing saying well we're not sure etc.

OK I think im missing the point, bc as I see it your saying that Wyche "has" to say he can turn Bledsoe around which in turns tells me that since he "has" to say it, its fluff, or therefor hype! B.c as you say above, the team cant say they are going to fail b,c they wouldnt get the job then.

[Michael82]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
I agree with that mikey but some posters have taken it too far and go on into person bashing and insults and thats not needed, simply stating your opinion if it agrees or is in disagreement with Mark is fine but some cross the line.

I agree with that. Bashing Mark Weiler as a fan or as a person is not right...however if you want to bash his articles, or his opinions...feel free to critique it and say what you feel instead.

[Voltron]

Originally posted by DraftBoy


I agree with that mikey but some posters have taken it too far and go on into person bashing and insults and thats not needed, simply stating your opinion if it agrees or is in disagreement with Mark is fine but some cross the line.

Ditto! :up:

[BAM]

I'm in a good mood right now I'm not gonna read that :up:

[BuffaloRanger]

How are we in a rebuilding year? What players have we lost? Rueben, Morris? Who have we added? Villarial, Gibson? The term "Rebuilding" to me signifies wholesale player changes. Yes, the old coaching staff was shown the door, but teams can change coaches without rebuilding.

Were the Bills rebuilding last season when they added Spikes, Milloy, Adams, etc? No. I think they were making improvements.

"Rebuilding" gives the sense that you won't be competitive for 3 seasons.

Face it, barring unforseen injuries to key players, this team's fortunes depend on Bledsoe. If he sucks the Bills won't make the playoffs. If he plays like he did in the first part of 2002 (when he broke 10 franchise passing records) the Bills will make the playoffs. It's that simple.

No rebuilding, just questions on offense.

[helmetguy]

I have another word that Weiler might just want to become familiar with-OBJECTIVITY.

If objectivity were a country, Weiler would need a map to find it and a passport to visit it.

[BigZ]

Originally posted by DraftBoy


I agree with that mikey but some posters have taken it too far and go on into person bashing and insults and thats not needed, simply stating your opinion if it agrees or is in disagreement with Mark is fine but some cross the line.

:fab:

Totally agree. It's ok (and expected) that we disagree with some of the opinions posted here and published by the columnists. The folks who make it personal and make mean-spirited attacks on the individuals take it way too far.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by BuffaloRanger
How are we in a rebuilding year? What players have we lost? Rueben, Morris? Who have we added? Villarial, Gibson? The term "Rebuilding" to me signifies wholesale player changes. Yes, the old coaching staff was shown the door, but teams can change coaches without rebuilding.

Were the Bills rebuilding last season when they added Spikes, Milloy, Adams, etc? No. I think they were making improvements.

"Rebuilding" gives the sense that you won't be competitive for 3 seasons.

Face it, barring unforseen injuries to key players, this team's fortunes depend on Bledsoe. If he sucks the Bills won't make the playoffs. If he plays like he did in the first part of 2002 (when he broke 10 franchise passing records) the Bills will make the playoffs. It's that simple.

No rebuilding, just questions on offense.

:bf1:

[Halbert]

I honestly feel the Bills have as much talent overall as any team in the league. The only question marks are depth and coaching, both of which could be huge in determining their success in '04, meaning they literally could end up anywhere between 5-11 and 11-5.

Based on the stability of the defense and McNally's ability to forge an OL that can exploit what looks like an ideal halfback situation, I'm expecting a ball control strategy that wins low scoring games. I'd be disappointed with anything less than the playoffs.

[Dozerdog]

It is partly understandable that the front office wants to hype the team for the upcoming season. Afterall, no one wants to see less than a full boat for each home game. The fans are unarguably an integral part of home field performance, particularly in Buffalo. As was pointed out in my last piece however, there are certainly issues associated with over-hyping the team.

For once I'd like to see him back these statements up. Except for one line by Wyche on the buffalobills.com website hyping Drew, (And when is Wyche Front office?) where is the Hype? I don't live in Buffalo- are they running ads on TV boasting "We are goiing to kick ass!"?

Is Tom Donehoe or Mike Mularkey doing the TV/Radio talk show circuit pimping the Bills like they are next up on Oprah's book of the month club?


When I have heard these interviews, it's the generic answers to generic questions (How's McGahee, How's Bledsoe)


Everything is a conspiracy with Mark- as if TD has some hidden agenda to keep Bledsoe or to secretly sell out stadiums and field a poor team. What Mark fails to tell the reader is that the Bills will spend the same amount of money if they go 0-16 or 16-0. So his theories (and I use the tearms very losely- more like fantasies) of what goes on in TD's head are pure nonsense.

[Philagape]

This is a playoff team, or SHOULD be. We have a top-3 defense that should be better, one and possibly two franchise RBs, a star WR and a QB who's bound to do better than last year. To me, the biggest question is interior O-line, but McNally is said to be a genius, so that is bound to improve.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by BAM
I'm in a good mood right now I'm not gonna read that :up:

:rofl:

[TedMock]

I don't think we're overhyped one bit. Most of the country feels that we suck. There are obviously Bills fans (me included) who feel that this team is talented and should be better this year. I don't think that it's over-hyping. If a coach isn't confident enough to feel that they can improve a guys play then I don't want that coach here...period. Also, Gregg William IS NOT Sam Wyche when it comes to evaluating and coaching QB's. I'm not saying Drew's gonna be awesome but I am saying that I'm willing to give a guy like Wyche the benefit of the doubt. He'll try and if it doesn't work then he was wrong about this one but it doesn't mean that he's not a good talent evaluator and that we shouldn't feel somewhat positive about.

[Mr. Miyagi]

POST EDITED FOR TOS VIOLATION

[Halbert]

I feel obligated to point out that it is a sportswriter's job to create interest and attention for the media he represents.

Mission accomplished.

[Halbert]

... and I thought this was his best article yet. Even if I don't agree with some of it, he did a nice job.

[Mr. Cynical]

Since I am relatively new to the zone and haven't been pummeled with Wysmania for a long time, I think I'm in a good position to look at Wys' article in a fairly objective manner.

It is partly understandable that the front office wants to hype the team for the upcoming season. Afterall, no one wants to see less than a full boat for each home game. The fans are unarguably an integral part of home field performance, particularly in Buffalo. As was pointed out in my last piece however, there are certainly issues associated with over-hyping the team.

Valid point. I agree.

Again, it is fully understandable that Tom Donahoe is trying to gamble on hyping a season while coming close to fulfilling the expectations that the team sets forth. It is in Donahoe’s interests to have McGahee turn out to have been worth wasting a season on not using a first round draft pick elsewhere last season. He also needs Bledsoe to play as well as he did in the ’96 and ’97 seasons and/or not have play characterized primarily by sacks and turnovers. He also needs Kelsay or Denney to step up and provide the level of play at the LDE position that has eluded the Bills for several seasons now and which has been the single biggest weakness on an otherwise solid defense without major issue and an issue which affects the entire defense.

Valid point. I agree.

Incoming rookie head coach Mike Mularkey and incoming rookie offensive coordinator Tom Clements are in a different boat however. They do not need all of that to happen. All they need is a solid season as rookie coaches with even a slight improvement, at least in the level of play if not in terms of wins-losses, over last season.

Valid point. I agree.

Tom Donahoe’s credibility may be at risk because upon his arrival in Buffalo at the onset of the 2001 season he promised to have a competitive team on the field capable of reaching a Super Bowl within three seasons. While many of the shortcomings of the team during that stretch have been coaching related, it was Donahoe who selected those coaches given that it was he who hired Williams who showed Donahoe what his selections for assistants were prior to actually hiring them and was on board with them.

Valid point. I agree.

Donahoe corrected the cap malady plaguing the Bills fairly quickly but has not built a winner as promised on the heels of doing that. In fact the word that best describes the Bills from other than a salary cap situation is "regression." Numerous top players on the current Bills team will be coming up for free agency over the next couple of seasons. This current team will undoubtedly not look nearly the same in ’06 as it does now. Therefore it is important to get the team moving in the right direction but quick. Final results for this season in terms of wins-losses mean less than momentum generated for this team heading into the’05 season.

No so valid. Moot point.

The one word that has not been uttered at One Bills Drive is that dreaded "R" word! It is not a "four letter word" but it may as well be. "Rebuilding." Someone has to say it so it may as well be you-know-who. This may not be a full-fledged rebuilding, but it is a rebuilding nonetheless. It is hopefully just a one-year hiccup in Donahoe’s overall rebuilding program. There should have been no shame in the Bills front office admitting that. To expect the Bills to make the playoffs this season given the circumstances at present, would be naïve. While no one has stated that this will happen, other irrationally strong statements have been made regarding player performance expectations.

:10: I agree.

Regardless, it matters not what I say in this matter. What matters is what the front office and coaches say. Thus far they are not admitting even a hint of rebuilding or anything resembling it. They do so at their own risk. Donahoe likely understands that risk and realizes the need for himself to accept it. However Mularkey and Clements are doing themselves a tremendous disservice, especially given some of their strong statements regarding the play of significant individual players and their expectations for this upcoming seasons in the team’s biggest single position problem areas.

Valid point. I agree.

The problem, which is more a problem for the incoming coaches than for anyone else at present, is that if the team came clean and admitted yet another season of a fix and a minor rebuilding, then the coaches would be served much better in their inaugural seasons. Donahoe is also risking much by fostering an environment where the team is being touted as highly as it is for this coming season. The coaches are needlessly risking more.

The coaches have made some very strong statements regarding players at the biggest problem areas of the team thus far. This will put the onus on them for anteing up what they say they will. The standard that they have set and continue to set will be the standard against which they are measured. Why they would want to set the bar as high as possible and higher than necessary is entirely beyond explanation. Yet, that is exactly what they have done and continue to do.

Valid points. I agree.

As a contrast, after having spoken with some Redskin fans and having paid attention to the local media in the D.C. area, the expectations in Washington are not as high. Well, Gibbs has been out of coaching for over a decade you may say. True, however he is also a hall of fame coach with Super Bowl wins who has plenty of experience, past or present, to assist him, give him credibility, and foster respect from the players. He has also brought in some very good assistants. The point is that in contrast, in spite of perhaps having a greater reason for hope, Redskin fans and media realize that to expect too much in Gibbs’ first season again is not wise. The circumstances of the two teams otherwise are not all that much different.

:10: Great point.

Bills’ coaches have made some extremely strong statements indicating that the talent that the Bills have at the two weakest individual player positions are not only adequate, but far more than that. Wyche promises to make Bledsoe play at a level that will be compared to Montana and Esiason. Ryan Denney and Chris Kelsay also get the coaches’ top endorsements for finally providing a pass rush from the perennially issue-laden left defensive end position. Is it not possible that the coaches are correct? Sure it is. More likely the latter than the prior. But that is not the point here.

The comment from Wyche comparing Drew to Montana is pure lunacy or pure PR. Either way, it is a ridiculous comparison.

Now, I didn't include the rest of the article as he just restates everything above using different words. In this regard I agree, it got tiresome. If this is what people mean when they Wys-bash, I can understand.

But as for the content of what he is saying, I think for the most part he is right.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Man, whenever you need some zonebucks, just start a thread about wys. :eek:

[The Natrix]

Good read. :up:

[Jeff1220]

I live in Baltimore, and most of the people here think the Bills suck and don't have a chance in the world at the playoffs. I don't feel the over-hype.

[lordofgun]

Originally posted by Halbert
I feel obligated to point out that it is a sportswriter's job to create interest and attention for the media he represents.

Mission accomplished.


Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
Man, whenever you need some zonebucks, just start a thread about wys. :eek:

You guys aren't kidding.

[BigZ]

Originally posted by TedMock
I don't think we're overhyped one bit. Most of the country feels that we suck. There are obviously Bills fans (me included) who feel that this team is talented and should be better this year. I don't think that it's over-hyping.

Agreed. Maybe the "comparison" with Montana is hype but what Wyche actually said was: "He's unusually good, and I've been around some unusually good ones with Boomer and Montana,"

[Halbert]

Wyche and Mularkey have a pretty damn impressive track record of squeezing good play out of their QB's.

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by Jeff1220
I live in Baltimore, and most of the people here think the Bills suck and don't have a chance in the world at the playoffs. I don't feel the over-hype.

TD and Co. only care about hyping the team to Bills' fans, since they attend games and buy Bills gear. Otherwise, who cares what the rest of the country thinks. In fact, it would be better if others felt we sucked, since that would be an advantage.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
For once I'd like to see him back these statements up. Except for one line by Wyche on the buffalobills.com website hyping Drew, (And when is Wyche Front office?) where is the Hype? I don't live in Buffalo- are they running ads on TV boasting "We are goiing to kick ass!"?

Is Tom Donehoe or Mike Mularkey doing the TV/Radio talk show circuit pimping the Bills like they are next up on Oprah's book of the month club?


When I have heard these interviews, it's the generic answers to generic questions (How's McGahee, How's Bledsoe)


Everything is a conspiracy with Mark- as if TD has some hidden agenda to keep Bledsoe or to secretly sell out stadiums and field a poor team. What Mark fails to tell the reader is that the Bills will spend the same amount of money if they go 0-16 or 16-0. So his theories (and I use the tearms very losely- more like fantasies) of what goes on in TD's head are pure nonsense.


:bf1:

[helmetguy]

Since when is it in TD's "best interests" to "overhype" the Bills? Weiler assumes that, aside from him, all Bills' fans are mindless dolts who wouldn't know it if TD were simply blowing smoke up their asses. If ever there was a "credibility" question associated with the Bills, it was during the three-year Williams fiasco; with Williams' credibility being the problem.

[smack541]

I don’t think the Bills are over hyped this year. I believe the fans would like to see an improvement over last year. But everyone’s not going to be surprised if we don’t make the playoffs. I still feel the Bills have the tools to make it all the way next year. They just need to get it all together on the field not just on paper. You can’t have a Pro Bowler at every position. Look at New England and Carolina, they didn’t have as much talent as alot of the other teams, but they still got it done.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi
POST EDITED FOR TOS VIOLATION


really? you dont say.. :idunno:

[Tatonka]

it depends on what you mean by overhyped.. if you are talking about the public perception... then we are NOT overhyped.. overhyped was what happened after buffalo's first 2 games last year. that was being seriously overhyped.. and we all believed it too... every single one of you on this board thought for a second to yourself.. hey.. maybe all these guys on sportcenter are right.. we are going to the superbowl.

now the public perception of the redskins is easy to not overhype as well.. becuase the public has seen the skins sign everyone in sight every year.. and they always suck.. i think the redskins are more of a joke because they always try to fix their problems via FA, and it never works.. ever.

[cordog]

Originally posted by zielinski
:fab:

Totally agree. It's ok (and expected) that we disagree with some of the opinions posted here and published by the columnists. The folks who make it personal and make mean-spirited attacks on the individuals take it way too far.

But its okay for posters to bash Bledsoe?

"It is partly understandable that the front office wants to hype the team for the upcoming season. Afterall, no one wants to see less than a full boat for each home game. The fans are unarguably an integral part of home field performance, particularly in Buffalo. As was pointed out in my last piece however, there are certainly issues associated with over-hyping the team."

You show me one NFL team, no one professional sports team whose selling point is "Don't come watch us play."

"Again, it is fully understandable that Tom Donahoe is trying to gamble on hyping a season while coming close to fulfilling the expectations that the team sets forth. It is in Donahoe’s interests to have McGahee turn out to have been worth wasting a season on not using a first round draft pick elsewhere last season."

What player could we have chosen that would have made an impact last season, and exactly how many 1st rounders did?

and with this hole rebuilding thing, its bullcrap, no rebuilding team goes out and signs Troy Vincent, a 32 yr old CB.

I cant believe i wasted some of my life reading that joke fora column.

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by cordog
What player could we have chosen that would have made an impact last season, and exactly how many 1st rounders did?

Good question. Anyone know? Who was drafted in the 1st round last year?


Originally posted by cordog
and with this hole rebuilding thing, its bullcrap, no rebuilding team goes out and signs Troy Vincent, a 32 yr old CB.

They don't need to rebuild the defense - they just needed a stopgap for Winfield until they either draft a CB or get another one in FA. However the offense does need a rebuild, although TD is not going to admit that publicly. If he did say that, it would make him look bad, since he is the one who locked up a major % of the offensive payroll in one guy who is not performing. Add to that his colossal screw up with GW/KG (he let GW hire KG which is still TD's fault) and he doesn't have the luxury of a "do over". He knows he'll likely be gone after this season unless major strides are taken. Therefore he can't rebuild it....only try to reload it enough to win some games to hold off the hook.

Personally, I would like give him the time on offense since he has done such a good job with the D. But I would only give him the time if I felt he were building a foundation, not just cleaning the windows or shining the doorknobs.

And that all starts with cutting Drew. :D

[helmetguy]

Anyone who thinks TD will be gone if Buffalo doesn't make the playoffs this year has spent too much time listening to Thursday Night Wys. What REALLY did the late John Butler do for the team, besides plug holes left when guys Polian brought in left?

If we did business the way Wys suggests, we may as well take the Redskins/Fantasy League approach. That is, identify who the chic fashionable "name" players are, buy 'em all up, and hope for the best. Or, we can show a little more patience and let TD do what has been pretty successful in the past. The structure is already built. All that is left is the finishing touches. I think I'd have a little more faith in a guy who's livelihood is football than a self-styled hack writer with a vanity webcast.

[doug45]

Originally posted by clumping platelets


He's all negative :down:


I would say realistic. If you do not face the negitives, you can not fix them.

[cordog]

Originally posted by kal123
Good question. Anyone know? Who was drafted in the 1st round last year?



They don't need to rebuild the defense - they just needed a stopgap for Winfield until they either draft a CB or get another one in FA. However the offense does need a rebuild, although TD is not going to admit that publicly. If he did say that, it would make him look bad, since he is the one who locked up a major % of the offensive payroll in one guy who is not performing. Add to that his colossal screw up with GW/KG (he let GW hire KG which is still TD's fault) and he doesn't have the luxury of a "do over". He knows he'll likely be gone after this season unless major strides are taken. Therefore he can't rebuild it....only try to reload it enough to win some games to hold off the hook.

Personally, I would like give him the time on offense since he has done such a good job with the D. But I would only give him the time if I felt he were building a foundation, not just cleaning the windows or shining the doorknobs.

And that all starts with cutting Drew. :D

Rebuild the offensive line-yes, and i wouldnt even say rebuild, it needed some work done, and got some of it with Villarial and Mc Nally.
The offense as a whole rebuilding? No not at all. You dont rebuild an offense with a pro bowl qb, rb, wr, and some promising youngsters like jennings, williams, sullivan, mcgahee, and henry. Were already done with our rebuilding, that was done a couple years ago. Does the offense need tweeked? obviosly, but not rebuilt.

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by helmetguy
Anyone who thinks TD will be gone if Buffalo doesn't make the playoffs this year has spent too much time listening to Thursday Night Wys. What REALLY did the late John Butler do for the team, besides plug holes left when guys Polian brought in left?

If we did business the way Wys suggests, we may as well take the Redskins/Fantasy League approach. That is, identify who the chic fashionable "name" players are, buy 'em all up, and hope for the best. Or, we can show a little more patience and let TD do what has been pretty successful in the past. The structure is already built. All that is left is the finishing touches. I think I'd have a little more faith in a guy who's livelihood is football than a self-styled hack writer with a vanity webcast.

Where did I say "make the playoffs"? I said "He knows he'll likely be gone after this season unless major strides are taken."

To me, major strides means:

...an offense that doesn't suck a**.
...the D already is solid, so it can't slip into mediocrity.
...8-8 or better, but not necessarily the playoffs. Reason being a record of 10-6 may not even make it, so it wouldn't be a fair assessment.

As for the structure of the offense already being built and all that is left is the finishing touches.....aside from Moulds, Henry (or WM) and possibly Williams (some will utter the word bust, but I won't yet), what structure do you mean?

QB: Not there yet
C: Not there yet
LG: Not there yet
LT: Ok, but nothing great.
RG: Don't know yet how Villarial will do.
TE: Not there yet
#2 WR: Reed (hopefully), but most agree we need a #2 speed WR to build upon, making Reed a slot.
FB: Not there yet

IMHO we have alot more to do than polish doorknobs. We need to pour a new foundation. I agree with giving TD more time...but like I said, I don't want band-aids.

[helmetguy]

Major strides WERE taken last year. Left in the hands of dolts, you've seen the results. If there is a major REGRESSION, then TD might want to dust off his resume.

You can make the same list for all but maybe three or four franchises. I have no definitive clue as to how we'll do. Nor does anyone else. There IS reason for optimism, though. Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber are already gone. That's a VAST improvement already.

[cordog]

Originally posted by helmetguy
Major strides WERE taken last year. Left in the hands of dolts, you've seen the results. If there is a major REGRESSION, then TD might want to dust off his resume.

You can make the same list for all but maybe three or four franchises. I have no definitive clue as to how we'll do. Nor does anyone else. There IS reason for optimism, though. Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber are already gone. That's a VAST improvement already.

BINGO!! Well said helmetguy. This is the FA era, every team has some questions somewhere.


Originally posted by kal123

QB: Not there yet
C: Not there yet
LG: Not there yet
LT: Ok, but nothing great.
RG: Don't know yet how Villarial will do.
TE: Not there yet
#2 WR: Reed (hopefully), but most agree we need a #2 speed WR to build upon, making Reed a slot.
FB: Not there yet

IMHO we have alot more to do than polish doorknobs. We need to pour a new foundation. I agree with giving TD more time...but like I said, I don't want band-aids.

QB- 3 time pro bowler, will flourish with a new regime
C- Ill give you this one, but for most of the year Teague had to play 2 positions
LG- Sullivan played all 16 games in 2002 and looked pretty damn good, he was supposed to be a member of last years line that we all thought would be better than 2002.
RG- Villarial is a proven G
TE- Cambell made some tough catches last year, i think hell have a damn good year.
WR- 3rd year kid who is still promising after some regression last year. Its only his 3rd year, plus we may draft someone here.
FB- Its a ?

[ECUCHRIS]

RDE is fine it's the LDE that that is the problem

[ECUCHRIS]

I also think that the R word needs to start happening this year in the draft and then we can continue after this season is over. I dont see the Bills making any big trades in the middle of the season.

[helmetguy]

Originally posted by ECUCHRIS
I also think that the R word needs to start happening this year in the draft and then we can continue after this season is over. I dont see the Bills making any big trades in the middle of the season.

What do you think we've been doing since 2001? When TD took over as GM, the first thing he did was to get the salary cap situation straightened out. From 2001 to 2002, we went from 3-13 (with a bargain basement roster) to 8-8 (with a defense that needed LOTS of work). So, in 2003, TD addressed the critical need-dfense; or supposed Achilles' heel. What happened? GW and KG had already reached their level of incompetence (classic Peter Principle stuff here). You rebuild if you have nothing. There's plenty of talent and experience on the roster to make a run at the playoffs. It's up to MM and his staff to do what the old staff couldn't-match that talent and experience with executable game plans.

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by helmetguy
Major strides WERE taken last year. Left in the hands of dolts, you've seen the results. If there is a major REGRESSION, then TD might want to dust off his resume.

You can make the same list for all but maybe three or four franchises. I have no definitive clue as to how we'll do. Nor does anyone else. There IS reason for optimism, though. Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber are already gone. That's a VAST improvement already.

One thing to remember though helmet - TD *hired* those dolts. (KG indirectly, but still TD's responsibility) So that's 2 strikes right there. And he brought Drew in as well, so if he doesn't miraculously turn around, he's on strike 3.

From what you are saying, the only way he gets the boot is if "there is major REGRESSION". I say he gets the boot if "there isn't major PROGRESSION."

For the record - I'm not being negative. I'm just pointing out the situation as *I* see it. Could be totally wrong....could be totally right. In any case, I don't want to us lose just to see him go. That would be insane.


Originally posted by cordog
QB- 3 time pro bowler, will flourish with a new regime
C- Ill give you this one, but for most of the year Teague had to play 2 positions
LG- Sullivan played all 16 games in 2002 and looked pretty damn good, he was supposed to be a member of last years line that we all thought would be better than 2002.
RG- Villarial is a proven G
TE- Cambell made some tough catches last year, i think hell have a damn good year.
WR- 3rd year kid who is still promising after some regression last year. Its only his 3rd year, plus we may draft someone here.
FB- Its a ?

In the interest of not starting another Drew thread, suffice it to say I think this is completely ignoring the Reality of Drew. You disagree, so let's drop it.

Granted KG's plan and Drew's ineptness were a part of the sack problem, but Sully had more than his fair share of "Lookout!" blocks. As such I don't consider him a solid part of the foundation for the future.

Villarial apparantly was solid for the Bears so I guess I can give you that one.

Campbell is mediocre at best. 5 TDs in 5 years and I wouldn't call him a fierce blocker, so I don't consider him a solid part of the foundation for the future.

I hope Reed breaks out this year. In fact I'm betting on it. However, he still may be better suited as a slot receiver than a #2 speed guy like Price. In light of that, it is still a ?.

Yes, FB is a ?. Who do we have? Burns?

[helmetguy]

Here we go with the "Blame it all on TD" stuff again. What would you do? As much as I was against GW's hire, I did give him credit for the improvement between 2001 and 2002. Given that TD set out to improve the personnel on D, there was an indication that GW and KG could continue to improve the team. Now, if you saw a 5-game improvement in your record from one year to the next, do you send those guys packing? Even at 4-4 last year, there were some on this board calling for GW's head (myself included). Apparently, TD got some assurance that changes would be made during the "bye" week, that, in hindsight, obviously weren't made (so much for GW's "self-scouting"). Although the Bills finished 6-10 last season, this in no way was a 6-10 team. You can't put that one on TD, just because he hired Gw and "indirectly" hire KG. If anything, TD saw the problem and set out to correct it. If nothing else, the offense shouldn't look like a disorganized playground game this year. Don't count on any MAJOR progression or regression this year. If you want that much progress, resurrect George Allen. As for regression, we could always bring GW back.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by helmetguy
. As for regression, we could always bring GW back.

:jawdrop: NO!!! Take it back!! Take it back!!! HG :chair: Phil

[Mr. Cynical]

I didn't "blame it all on TD", but he is the top of the chain and has to be accountable at some point. Say what you will, but TD is basically like the CEO of a company and that means he is responsible for what happens. The fact remains he did the hiring of GW, KG and Drew. You yourself said "Left in the hands of dolts, you've seen the results." (concerning GW/KG) Who is the one who "left it" in the hands of the dolts?

TD.

Normally the first to go when a team sucks is the HC. So, GW got the axe and most deservedly so. Now, if we don't see major progression this year, who are you going to blame next? MM? Drew? But then you have to ask who hired MM and kept Drew....

TD.

But in all honesty I really don't want to argue about this anymore. It is what it is, so let's just agree to disagree. :peace:

[helmetguy]

Originally posted by The_Philster
:jawdrop: NO!!! Take it back!! Take it back!!! HG :chair: Phil

NO! I won't take it back! If one wants to make a point, one must supply some perspective as well, don't ya think? Besides, aren't YOU the one who started this thread? You should be ashamed!

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by helmetguy
NO! I won't take it back! If one wants to make a point, one must supply some perspective as well, don't ya think?
Absolutely...but can you imagine that moron coming back to Buffalo? :eek:


Originally posted by helmetguy
Besides, aren't YOU the one who started this thread? You should be ashamed!

:ontome:

[Tatonka]

kal, i disagree completely on campbell.. using his entire 5 years as a base is not accurate, because he wasnt a starter until last year.. i dont if you were watching him or not, but campbell was a huge steal, and i think he will continue to improve.. did you see him drop any passes? i saw him make at least 4 incredible catches where he threw his body out there, knowing he was going to get creamed.. got creamed.. and held onto the ball.

i like campbell alot.

and FB is about the easiest position to fill.. we have a good blocking fb in shelton, who paved the way for anthony thomas while he was busy getting rookie of the year. and there is a large enough group in the draft that we can grab someone on the middle of day 2 and come out way ahead.

[helmetguy]

GEE WHIZ! I never would have thought of that analogy! I suupose that for every clunker of a coach that gets hired, the GM should be shown the door as well? I don't get it.

I've followed TD's career since he was in Pittsburgh. There were six million reasons why he wasn't re-signed-Bill Cowher's salary (a TD hire, by the way). For every "star" that the Steelers lost in TD's tenure, there was always a replacement. It was when Cowher demanded more control over salary/personnel issues (and TD's contract came up for renewal) Rooney had to make a choice-either eat Cowher's $6 million contract and re-sign TD, or let TD go. For that kind of money, it was a no-brainer.

[BuffaloRanger]

1. "He also needs Bledsoe to play as well as he did in the ’96 and ’97 seasons and/or not have play characterized primarily by sacks and turnovers."

2. "However Mularkey and Clements are doing themselves a tremendous disservice, especially given some of their strong statements regarding the play of significant individual players and their expectations for this upcoming seasons in the team’s biggest single position problem areas. "

3. "The coaches have made some very strong statements regarding players at the biggest problem areas of the team thus far."

4. "Bills’ coaches have made some extremely strong statements indicating that the talent that the Bills have at the two weakest individual player positions are not only adequate, but far more than that. Wyche promises to make Bledsoe play at a level that will be compared to Montana and Esiason. "

____________________________________________________

Come on now!! He's like a frickin' broken record. How many different ways can he say the same thing?

Why can't he make his point in less than 3 pages?

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by helmetguy
GEE WHIZ! I never would have thought of that analogy! I suupose that for every clunker of a coach that gets hired, the GM should be shown the door as well?

Yup! :up:

Ok, I'll ask you one last question then. At what point do YOU put the blame on the GM?

I'm all ears.

[helmetguy]

Answer: The John Butler legacy.

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by helmetguy
Answer: The John Butler legacy.

:huh:

I asked at what point do you say the GM of a team is to blame for the lousy condition of the team. If you are implying Butler was a bad GM, fine. But then I ask again...at what point in his time with the Bills did you feel he was to blame?

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by Tatonka
kal, i disagree completely on campbell.. using his entire 5 years as a base is not accurate, because he wasnt a starter until last year.. i dont if you were watching him or not, but campbell was a huge steal, and i think he will continue to improve.. did you see him drop any passes? i saw him make at least 4 incredible catches where he threw his body out there, knowing he was going to get creamed.. got creamed.. and held onto the ball.

i like campbell alot.

and FB is about the easiest position to fill.. we have a good blocking fb in shelton, who paved the way for anthony thomas while he was busy getting rookie of the year. and there is a large enough group in the draft that we can grab someone on the middle of day 2 and come out way ahead.

To be honest I don't feel that strongly either way about him, but I still question if he was all that good why it took him this long to start.

As for the FB I agree - not a huge deal. I was just trying to be thorough and go through all positions on the offense. But I agree - not hard to fill.

[mikemac2001]

Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi
POST EDITED FOR TOS VIOLATION

Yo whats this???

[One Bills Drive]

Mr. helmetguy,

Thank you for your unwavering support. It is good to know that someone appreciates my efforts.

Sincerely,

TD

[helmetguy]

I can't give you a definitive cut loose point. If I could, I'd be in TD's spot as we speak. However, if we start a revolving door policy in the front office, we might as well be the Arizona Cardinals. There has to be some stability in that position; otherwise, it'd be nearly impossible to attract quality personnel. How many Head Coaches lost their jobs this past season? Seven? That means there are seven other GMs in the hot seat as well, I suppose. To base TD's entire stewarship on one bad coaching hire is just plain ludicrous.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by kal123
Yup! :up:

Ok, I'll ask you one last question then. At what point do YOU put the blame on the GM?

I'm all ears.

TD's only major mistake so far has been his first move- head coach.

Now the Buffalo Bills are not the Washington Redskins- they do not have the resources to fire coaches mid season. I say that because unless a team is in complete mutiny, coaches are just not let go in the middle of a campaign.

TD did everything by the book as far as NFL coaching ediquette went- he hired a guy, gave him all the opportunity to suceed, supplied the players- allowed him to hire his coaches- then let him go.

Canning him after a 2-2 start (like a lot of guys here wanted) might hav efelt good, but it winds up costing you big time in the end. No respectable coach will sign with you under those conditions unles syou break the bank- ala Dan Snyder ... or you end up with guys desperate for the Job.

Mike Mularkey declined the Bengals job a year ago- because their ownership is not respected and is a Joke.

TD got throuh this maintaining the Bills as an excellent organization to work for.


TD is now 1-1 hiring coaches- Cower has been in his spot over a decade and has big successes, GW stunk. Most GMs have worse records.


I'll continue to weigh his successes vs his failures- the former vastly outweight he latter

[Big M]

His Articles reminds me of an old song by The Smiths - Bigmouth Strikes Again.

You were right to give this guy the boot. He must just detest sunny days.

Let's let the season play out before we sink the ship.

[cordog]

Originally posted by helmetguy
I can't give you a definitive cut loose point. If I could, I'd be in TD's spot as we speak. However, if we start a revolving door policy in the front office, we might as well be the Arizona Cardinals. There has to be some stability in that position; otherwise, it'd be nearly impossible to attract quality personnel. How many Head Coaches lost their jobs this past season? Seven? That means there are seven other GMs in the hot seat as well, I suppose. To base TD's entire stewarship on one bad coaching hire is just plain ludicrous.

Your right helmetguy, and the thing about GW is that TD wasnt the only one in the football world who thought GW was gonna be a good HC. If i remember correctly he pulled his name out of the running for a couple of HC jobs because he wanted the Buffalo job and i remember reading more than a few articles about the guy and how he deserves a shot. Yes TD did hire him, but there were quite a few people who thought he would flourish.

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by helmetguy
I can't give you a definitive cut loose point. If I could, I'd be in TD's spot as we speak. However, if we start a revolving door policy in the front office, we might as well be the Arizona Cardinals. There has to be some stability in that position; otherwise, it'd be nearly impossible to attract quality personnel. How many Head Coaches lost their jobs this past season? Seven? That means there are seven other GMs in the hot seat as well, I suppose. To base TD's entire stewarship on one bad coaching hire is just plain ludicrous.

I agree you can't base TD's entire stewardship on one bad coaching hire. That's why I said if this season doesn't pan out, it will not be just "one" bad hire. I'm not saying this will be the case. Again, I'm merely pointing out the fact that TD has used up his Mulligan and cannot have another screw up or he will be gone. IMO, a "screw up" means another bad year - whether it is because of MM, Drew, a gimped WM or any other host of possibilities that he was directly involved in. All I'm saying is that the Bills have to progress or he will (or should) be held accountable.



Originally posted by dozerdog
TD's only major mistake so far has been his first move- head coach.

Heck of a mistake though. ;) It's not like he picked some player who turned out to be a bust. The HC is the most important "position" on the team. Just look at what Parcells, Belichick and Fox did with their teams. He also allowed GW to hire KG, which in my book is two mistakes, not one. And another in my book is Drew, but I won't go there. ;)

In any case, I'm not saying "TD sucks", or "Get rid of TD". I reserve that for Drew. What I am saying is "TD is out of credits" and "Needs to move the team ahead this year or he will be gone." Meaning, I want to give him another chance, but that's it. Not 3, 4, 5 etc.

[helmetguy]

How many "credits" did George Young use up? Or Charlie Casserly? Or Ron Woolf? Or Bill Polian? Or..... See what I'm getting at? For every Parcells, Fox, Belichick, there are at least a dozen GW's, Rick Venturi's, and Jack Pardees.

TD would have been a fool to deny GW his choice of hires as assistants. Had that been the case, no qualified guy in his right mind would consider taking the HC job in Buffalo. TD did what anyone would be expected to do. When GW screwed up TWICE just with his OC choice, TD decided that GW wasn't getting the job done, despite the fact that TD made every effort to get him quality personnel on the roster. I'm sure he has much more faith in Mularkey, since he knows him and has worked with him before. Like I said before, I have no idea what our record will be this year. But I do know that they're headed in the right direction. In Mularkey, they have a guy who was game tested as a player, and learned from two of the better coaches in NFL annals-Cowher a Chuck Noll.

[Mr. Cynical]

I don't care about how many credits other GMs got. What does that prove? As you even pointed out, for every success there is a failure, so there's no guaratee either way.

The bottom line is that all I care about are the Bills' credit policy, not other teams'. And right now *IMHO* TD is out of credits. One more screw up and he should be shown the door.

[helmetguy]

So, to summarize your position, would it be accurate to say that, because it's the Bills' organization, there's a loftier standard; a sort of "Zero-Tolerance" policy with regard to Donahoe?

Let's look at a hypothetical situation here:

Suppose you, as a fan, have a certain player you are really set on for the Bills to draft in the first round. Suppose, further, that this particular player is highly regarded among the most notable and respected draft analysts as well. Suppose also, that this particular player is selected by the Bills. Lastly, suppose that this highly touted player-whom you yourself have considered an excellent selection-turns out to be a bust. As optimistic as you were about this particular prospect, how do you reconcile that with TD's selection of that player? Does that count against TD's "credit account?"

You see, you have to have some sort of perspective in order to establish some sort of performance standard. Each decision a GM makes can not be judged in the vacuum of that single decision. In the case of TD's hire of GW, the decision was lauded by a great number of writers and analysts; guys who make their livings at it. By all accounts, GW was very impressive in his interview with TD, and had some impressive work product to show for his efforts as DC in Tennessee. By the same token, Bill Belichick's resume included a stint as HC with an underachieving Cleveland Browns team. The reason I mentioned guys like Casserly, Young, and the like is that, in NFL circles, they are among the most repected front office guys in the business. Should TD be held to an even higher standard than those guys? As I said earlier, to hold TD to as lofty a standard as you have set, then the Bills' front office would resemble that of Arizona's-complete disarray. Be careful what you wish for in the short run. The long term effects could be a lot worse.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by helmetguy
So, to summarize your position, would it be accurate to say that, because it's the Bills' organization, there's a loftier standard; a sort of "Zero-Tolerance" policy with regard to Donahoe?

Let's look at a hypothetical situation here:

Suppose you, as a fan, have a certain player you are really set on for the Bills to draft in the first round. Suppose, further, that this particular player is highly regarded among the most notable and respected draft analysts as well. Suppose also, that this particular player is selected by the Bills. Lastly, suppose that this highly touted player-whom you yourself have considered an excellent selection-turns out to be a bust. As optimistic as you were about this particular prospect, how do you reconcile that with TD's selection of that player? Does that count against TD's "credit account?"

You see, you have to have some sort of perspective in order to establish some sort of performance standard. Each decision a GM makes can not be judged in the vacuum of that single decision. In the case of TD's hire of GW, the decision was lauded by a great number of writers and analysts; guys who make their livings at it. By all accounts, GW was very impressive in his interview with TD, and had some impressive work product to show for his efforts as DC in Tennessee. By the same token, Bill Belichick's resume included a stint as HC with an underachieving Cleveland Browns team. The reason I mentioned guys like Casserly, Young, and the like is that, in NFL circles, they are among the most repected front office guys in the business. Should TD be held to an even higher standard than those guys? As I said earlier, to hold TD to as lofty a standard as you have set, then the Bills' front office would resemble that of Arizona's-complete disarray. Be careful what you wish for in the short run. The long term effects could be a lot worse.

:bf1:

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by helmetguy
So, to summarize your position, would it be accurate to say that, because it's the Bills' organization, there's a loftier standard; a sort of "Zero-Tolerance" policy with regard to Donahoe?

Let's look at a hypothetical situation here:

Suppose you, as a fan, have a certain player you are really set on for the Bills to draft in the first round. Suppose, further, that this particular player is highly regarded among the most notable and respected draft analysts as well. Suppose also, that this particular player is selected by the Bills. Lastly, suppose that this highly touted player-whom you yourself have considered an excellent selection-turns out to be a bust. As optimistic as you were about this particular prospect, how do you reconcile that with TD's selection of that player? Does that count against TD's "credit account?"

You see, you have to have some sort of perspective in order to establish some sort of performance standard. Each decision a GM makes can not be judged in the vacuum of that single decision. In the case of TD's hire of GW, the decision was lauded by a great number of writers and analysts; guys who make their livings at it. By all accounts, GW was very impressive in his interview with TD, and had some impressive work product to show for his efforts as DC in Tennessee. By the same token, Bill Belichick's resume included a stint as HC with an underachieving Cleveland Browns team. The reason I mentioned guys like Casserly, Young, and the like is that, in NFL circles, they are among the most repected front office guys in the business. Should TD be held to an even higher standard than those guys? As I said earlier, to hold TD to as lofty a standard as you have set, then the Bills' front office would resemble that of Arizona's-complete disarray. Be careful what you wish for in the short run. The long term effects could be a lot worse.

Of course I hold the Bills' organization to a loftier standard. Don't you? Or would you be satisfied with an organization like the Lions, who gave Wayne Fontes countless chances and went nowhere for years and years. Matt Millen? Another wonderful example of their standard. No, I think I will continue to stick with my loftier standard for the Bills. :)

Now, in your example I think it is fairly clear that you are justifying TD's choice of GW by mentioning the positive reviews from other people "in the circle" of the NFL. No offense, but I just find it a little too convenient that, becuase GW was a bust, you bring up other people's opinions on him as a justfication for TD's colossal mistake. More important, regardless of the reason he made the choice he is still ultimately responsible for that decision no matter what. Right or wrong, that's how it is.

I can't understand why you won't just acknowledge he screwed up? More people than not agree with that assessment (professional and otherwise). It doesn't mean he is a garbage GM. But you keep defending him as if he hasn't made any mistakes and that simply isn't true.

Edit: To answer your hypothetical, yes it does count against his credits. As I mentioned earlier, it is his job and has to be measured with results, not excuses. Right or wrong, that is business. However, to be clear - I'm not saying you fire him if this is his first "mistake". But yes, it would cost him a credit, which leaves less for future mistakes.

Let's try another hypothetical....

TD keeps Drew but he does not improve, thus losing $8M. WM does not impress as expected. The offense ranks in the bottom third of the league again. The Bills go 6-10 again or worse this year.

Now, does that count against TD's "credit account"? Or do you chalk it up to a rookie HC and that he needs another year to really get to know the team, get his groove on, etc. Or do you finally say TD has had a few years to turn it around and has failed?

Throughout all your replies, I still have not heard your conditions where you would fire a GM. :idunno: