Argue this... you who say our WR corp isnt good enough?

[Tatonka]

kansas city has jonnie morton, eddie kennison, and tony gonzales.

if you can sit there and tell me that they are more talented than moulds, reed/shaw, and campbell.. then you need to have your family members investigated, because someone is drugging you.

KC has a great offense.. one of the best in the nfl.. and it is based on the following, and in this order...

1. Great OL
2. Great RB
3. Great TE
4. average QB who doesnt make alot of mistakes
5. piss poor wrs who make a few plays.

we need another horse on the oline alot more than a 4th string wr.



:box:

[B-DON]

Exactly why we should trade down and get andrews ,carey then pick up some extra picks to get other players on the first day of this years draft. A third rounder in this draft could become a hidden gem or even talented enough to start somewhere right away if he does good enough in camp. Bottom line is we need o-linemen and more picks.

[Ebenezer]

Josh Reed is a great #3 WR...even when EM was healthy Reed did not show that he can stretch the field nor concentrate hard enough to catch the ball in important, let alone, unimportant situations.

[TedMock]

The WR's are capable of big plays and I think Josh Reed and Bobby Shaw are capable of big plays. They don't necessarily have to be "big play" WR's but play well enough within the system so that when they do make a big play it's icing on the cake. You did forget one other important part of KC's success.....Dick Vermeil. Some coaches just know how to get players to play within their means and stay disciplined. Vermeil's one of those coaches. It does all start, on the field, with the OL so that's a given but is Holmes a great RB? I'm not saying "no" but I do wonder. Either way your posts have been impressive for a V-Tech grad. Are you sure you went there? j/k

[Devin]

If we had Winslow on this offence, and grabbed Grove in the 2nd id be thrilled. Im a huge Rivers fan but based on that formula..........

Wed have a hell of an offence.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

For arguments sake:

Without Peerless Price the offense was 3rd last.

With him 11th

[juice]

Gonzalez is the best TE in the game... Kennison had better #s this season than Moulds, Morton was more consistent than Reed and they didn't loose a game till December... whats to argue... Who had the better Defense?

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Ebenezer
Josh Reed is a great #3 WR...even when EM was healthy Reed did not show that he can stretch the field nor concentrate hard enough to catch the ball in important, let alone, unimportant situations.

that is all piss poor offensive coaching by gilbride.. look at the second half the 2002 season.. moulds and price were not even getting it done.. so you can not hold reed accountable for that.. AND that was only reeds second year.. moulds looked a hell of alot worse in his first two years.


Originally posted by TedMock
Either way your posts have been impressive for a V-Tech grad. Are you sure you went there? j/k

:tongue:

[TedMock]

It's really not fair to compare Reed and Price. Yes, I know, #2 WR vs. #2 WR but that's not exactly what happened. Getting rid of Price was supposed to work because we were changing to a power offense with a shorter, more precise passing game. Same philosophy as dumping Centers in favor of Gash. Both are good, just at different things. Anyway, a year ago, they spoke about Reed's toughness and tackle breaking ability over the middle. He should've fit better into the system that never was. Yes, we do still need a WR to stretch the field (All teams do) and we need an eventual replacement for Moulds. This is a nice WR draft so why get a guy in the first round when we can accomplish what we need later? It's more likely that Williams or Adams will go before Moulds. They're all around the same age but Moulds isn't playing on the line with 300+ pounds on his knees. That's why a little rotation help this year and a starter next year is a good thing.

[Pride]

Originally posted by TheGhostofJimKelly
For arguments sake:

Without Peerless Price the offense was 3rd last.

With him 11th

For arguments sake:

Gilbride as OC: 11th
Gilbride as OC and QB Coach: 27th

Gilbride was the #1 reason our offense sucked.

He didnt adjust his entire time here. It only took defenses 8 games to catch on, then it was all over. Remember, the offense only looked good the first half of 2002. After that, they were VERY average.

[Tatonka]

and people who mention that we need a guy to stretch the field.. we have moulds.. moulds is a deep threat. it is not like we need 2 of them. and moulds is here for at least another 3 years. like ted said, pat is gone after this year and sam will be gone shortly after, if not at the same time.

we can grab a guy like berry or pk sam that will have just as much of an impact as a roy williams.

[Tatonka]

and for every randy moss, there are 20 troy edwards and eddie kennisons.

and the list of studs in the nfl at wr is stocked full of guys taken in the 2nd and later.. like chad johnson (3rd rounder), boldin, and plenty more.

[thefixer74]

What about a younger position WR to replace Shaw,like Michael Clayton.6'4"-200# with good hands and great leaping ability.

Besides I'm not ready to give up on Sam Aiken yet.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

Originally posted by Pride


For arguments sake:

Gilbride as OC: 11th
Gilbride as OC and QB Coach: 27th

Gilbride was the #1 reason our offense sucked.

He didnt adjust his entire time here. It only took defenses 8 games to catch on, then it was all over. Remember, the offense only looked good the first half of 2002. After that, they were VERY average.

I'm not sure what that has to do with me putting down Peerless Price. Maybe I am missing something.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

Originally posted by Tatonka
and for every randy moss, there are 20 troy edwards and eddie kennisons.

and the list of studs in the nfl at wr is stocked full of guys taken in the 2nd and later.. like chad johnson (3rd rounder), boldin, and plenty more.

For every Peyton Manning there are 20 Ryan Leafs, Heath Shulers, Cade McNowns.....

For every Javon Kearse there are 20 Eric Flowers, Aundrey Bruces,.....

For every...................................

[LtBillsFan66]

KC has some speed demons though. That's what we need, IMO. Peerless was a fast shifty threat.

[juice]

Originally posted by Tatonka
and people who mention that we need a guy to stretch the field.. we have moulds.. moulds is a deep threat. it is not like we need 2 of them. and moulds is here for at least another 3 years. like ted said, pat is gone after this year and sam will be gone shortly after, if not at the same time.

we can grab a guy like berry or pk sam that will have just as much of an impact as a roy williams.

Even Moulds says another deep threat is needed... Maybe he's not the deep threat he once was.. and we're just screwed if he pulls a Hammy or gets dinged up.. I fear another offensive breakdown like last year. Fix what's broken first.

[TedMock]

That's just it, though. Is the offense broken or is Kevin Gilbride's brain? I would like another speed guy but I don't think it's our most pressing need. There are a lot of them available. Not every position is as deep with a lot of equal talent.

[EDS]

Kansis City also had Dante Hall! Plus, their passing game was focused on the running back and tight end. Priest is exceptionally gifted as a receiver out of the back field and Gonzalez is one of the best tight ends. Campbell is average as a receiver. Same with Travis.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by TheGhostofJimKelly
For every Peyton Manning there are 20 Ryan Leafs, Heath Shulers, Cade McNowns.....

For every Javon Kearse there are 20 Eric Flowers, Aundrey Bruces,.....

For every...................................

the likely hood of a OL or DL being a bust is less than wr.. and qb..


Originally posted by juice
Even Moulds says another deep threat is needed... Maybe he's not the deep threat he once was.. and we're just screwed if he pulls a Hammy or gets dinged up.. I fear another offensive breakdown like last year. Fix what's broken first.

any team can say that.. if indy lost peyton, they are done.. if brady goes down , done.. if priest goes down.. kc is done


Originally posted by EDS
Kansis City also had Dante Hall! Plus, their passing game was focused on the running back and tight end. Priest is exceptionally gifted as a receiver out of the back field and Gonzalez is one of the best tight ends. Campbell is average as a receiver. Same with Travis.

dante hall was a 4th option in the passing game..

[DraftBoy]

Maybe a 4th option but you still respect the mans speed

[juice]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tatonka

any team can say that.. if indy lost peyton, they are done.. if brady goes down , done.. if priest goes down.. kc is done

But were one of the few that have lived the nightmare... Do we go into anther season with no answer?

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by juice
But were one of the few that have lived the nightmare... Do we go into anther season with no answer?

every team goes into the season with no answer at some very important positions every year.

[TedMock]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
Maybe a 4th option but you still respect the mans speed

...and he torched our secondary with his speed. This is the exact point. We can get a 3rd or 4th WR who can stretch the field and possibly return kicks after the first round. We don't need a #1 or a #2 WR. With Shaw, we don't even need a #3. It's been said before about WR's typically not being a huge impact in year one. If we find one that can pull the safties away from Moulds at times we can groom that person to start next year at #2 or #3, depending on Reed's development and eventually slide him over to Moulds' spot. Or, find a permanent #3 and wait until next season to find Moulds' successor. We're changing philosophy on offense and an immediate stud isn't necessary. Guys like Moulds, Owens, Horn, Harrison, etc. were not 1000 yard WR's in their first year. They all turned out fine.

[Tatonka]

daunte hall is not faster than brown.. why not just try the guy? we never got to see him on the field at all. he was a rookie last year

[justasportsfan]

I think we have depth at wr. Aiken and Coleman are still unknowns. Moulds is the only elite one however.

Comparing our wr's to KC is not precise after all , different coaches. This is a better comparison talent wise. IMO

Pitt- ranked 24 total offense and ranked 13th in passing O

QB- Tommy Maddox

Hines Ward 16 95 1163 12.2 72.7 10
Plaxico Burress 16 60 860 14.3 53.8 4
Amos Zereoue 16 40 310 7.8 19.4 0
Antwaan Randle El 16 37 364 9.8 22.8 1

Qb Drew Bledsoe.

Billsranked 3rd to last in total O and 26th in passing O.

Eric Moulds 13 64 780 12.2 60.0 1
Josh Reed 16 58 588 10.1 36.8 2
Bobby Shaw 16 56 732 13.1 45.8 4
Mark Campbell 16 34 339 10 21.2 1


Since their OC is now our HC.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Don't forget Moulds played on one leg for almost the whole year.

Watching that tape of the Bills / Viking game reminded me that Reed really is a slot receiver. I'm not sure that, given a healthy Moulds, Shaw is a #2. But neither Reed or Shaw really had a true chance to show what they could do with a healthy Moulds.

[lordofgun]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
Don't forget Moulds played on one leg for almost the whole year.

Watching that tape of the Bills / Viking game reminded me that Reed really is a slot receiver. I'm not sure that, given a healthy Moulds, Shaw is a #2. But neither Reed or Shaw really had a true chance to show what they could do with a healthy Moulds.

Good point.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by lordofgun
Good point.

for once. :snicker:

[Bmax]

Why are so many of you focused on year 1 production..The way some of you think it now or never in 2004 for the bills...When you draft you want production in year 1 . but remember most picks break out in year 2....Drafting a wr in early rd one or 2 would give us quality depth and speed we need something we just don't have now....

Bmax

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Bmax
Why are so many of you focused on year 1 production..The way some of you think it now or never in 2004 for the bills...When you draft you want production in year 1 . but remember most picks break out in year 2....Drafting a wr in early rd one or 2 would give us quality depth and speed we need something we just don't have now....

Bmax

why are you so convinced that we dont have quality depth as it stands now?

[Bmax]

Aiken, coleman and brown ? where is the quality there ? where is the big play capability...Except for brown on special teams none of these guys can be counted on if injury occurs... Shaw is a journeymen who gives you experience in a 3 wr set....Most nfl teams have at least 3 quality wr's with a fourth guy ready to play when needed...

Bmax

tonk-
If you want to speak up for shaw, coleman, aiken or brown here is your shot .....

[juice]

Originally posted by Bmax
Why are so many of you focused on year 1 production..The way some of you think it now or never in 2004 for the bills...When you draft you want production in year 1 . but remember most picks break out in year 2....Drafting a wr in early rd one or 2 would give us quality depth and speed we need something we just don't have now....

Bmax

I guess we'll be drafting players we dont expect to play without injuries this year. If you pick a player 1st rd. of course you expect them to contribute.

[elltrain22]

I never really looked at the issue from that point of view, and it is very valid what you are saying. So the question is, should we use our #1 or #2 pick to get an olineman.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Originally posted by TheGhostofJimKelly
For arguments sake:

Without Peerless Price the offense was 3rd last.

With him 11th

We will have a different offense this year. With a different coaching staff.

[TigerJ]

I agree that the Bills need a better O-line than they fielded in '03. I agree that Gilbride gets a lot of the blame for the ineffectiveness of the offense, and that Moulds' injury was an additional factor.

I don't think Buffalo has to draft a WR in the first round, but I would still like to see Buffalo draft a guy with speed and potential at some point in the draft. Antonio Brown supposedly was a poor route runner. If the new coaching staff can cure that, fine. If not, he's never going to be a factor. Coleman looked quick in preseason, but I don't know how much of a test that was. Aiken didn't show me anything that a hundred other WR hopefuls couldn't show.

[juice]

Originally posted by Tatonka
every team goes into the season with no answer at some very important positions every year.

But not many teams do this twice... That is why you address team needs through the Draft... Not to mention this will be an issue with Moulds winding down his carreer... Let him bring his replacment along.

After last years results it would be a huge mistake to think we have adequate depth at WR.

[Bmax]

Production and contrbution yes but 65, 1100 and 10 td's may be a little much for year one...Just being a guy that can makes plays from week 8 on would be great... Guys like fitzgerald and williams (roy )may have these numbers.. but reggie may not....year 2 reggie could lead the team in receptions .. just look at jerry rice he was the 16 th pick in 1985...and his first year numbers weren't earth shattering... I guess the 49ers should have traded down and drafted a og

BMAX

[Mahdi]

IMO in order to come out of this draft with players who can have a strong impact the bills need to either trade up or down ,,,in the first round the bills are just out of range for all three wrs and all three qb's and most probably udeze aswell. So we might aswell trade down for more picks or trade up and grab one big time player such as taylor, winslow , Roy , Mike, Rivers , Ben Roe, gallery and MAYBE udeze.

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by Bmax
Aiken, coleman and brown ? where is the quality there ? where is the big play capability...Except for brown on special teams none of these guys can be counted on if injury occurs... Shaw is a journeymen who gives you experience in a 3 wr set....Most nfl teams have at least 3 quality wr's with a fourth guy ready to play when needed...

Bmax

tonk-
If you want to speak up for shaw, coleman, aiken or brown here is your shot ..... Although I agree with your post, from a different perspective, none of our wr's had time to break away from their defenders because of lousy OL. Becuase of this, no one was able to really prove anything. If and when Mcnally improves this OL, our passin game could be easily top 10. This is hopin that MM can turn our wr's into that Pitts wr corp of 2002. I think we do have better talent than what Pitts had then.

Then again if Moulds goes down, there isn't much after that.

[juice]

Originally posted by Bmax
Production and contrbution yes but 65, 1100 and 10 td's may be a little much for year one...Just being a guy that can makes plays from week 8 on would be great... Guys like fitzgerald and williams (roy )may have these numbers.. but reggie may not....year 2 reggie could lead the team in receptions .. just look at jerry rice he was the 16 th pick in 1985...and his first year numbers weren't earth shattering... I guess the 49ers should have traded down and drafted a og

BMAX

I agree with you B-Max... A few deep patterns early in the season could set the tone of the entire year.. And Give a rookie the confidence to step up in case of injury to EM again.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Tatonka
the likely hood of a OL or DL being a bust is less than wr.. and qb..

I disagree, since QBs, WRs, and RBs are offensive and therefore have a much higher profile, they are just more visible. Plus since they are offensive, they are supposed to produce yardage and TDs, something a lot easier to gauge than an Olineman or defensive player whose statistics aren't as easily guaged by the general public.


Originally posted by Tatonka
any team can say that.. if indy lost peyton, they are done.. if brady goes down , done.. if priest goes down.. kc is done

And if Moulds goes down and Henry is dinged up it is ... nevermind. :)


Originally posted by Tatonka
dante hall was a 4th option in the passing game..

I agree that Hall was sometimes more of a deversion than a primary. Halls role was the role I thought that Antonio Brown should have been filling all last year, but our OC was too thick to realize it. Even after a 17 yard gain on a reverse against Washington.

In a way, I agree that WR isn't as dire a need as a very good DE, or maybe a backup QB and future starter, but at 13 the best available player might be a WR and there are several that are in the exceptionally gifted category this year. I wouldn't mind at all if the Bills traded to NE for their two firsts, but I doubt NE gives up that much, or even a trade down up to ten spots and gain an extra second. But I wouldn't mind getting one of the top 3 WRs either.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Tatonka
daunte hall is not faster than brown.. why not just try the guy? we never got to see him on the field at all. he was a rookie last year

I couldn't agree more. To not even bother throwing him out there and just try a deep pass is irresponsible.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Bmax
Aiken, coleman and brown ? where is the quality there ? where is the big play capability...Except for brown on special teams none of these guys can be counted on if injury occurs... Shaw is a journeymen who gives you experience in a 3 wr set....Most nfl teams have at least 3 quality wr's with a fourth guy ready to play when needed...

Bmax

tonk-
If you want to speak up for shaw, coleman, aiken or brown here is your shot .....


what makes you so sure that a rookie is going to outperform any of our current receivers.

[Jan Reimers]

Originally posted by Tatonka
what makes you so sure that a rookie is going to outperform any of our current receivers.

You could say that about any position. I think our problem at WR is simply a lack of speed to compliment Moulds. Reed could be real good, Shaw is a solid veteran, and Aiken has a lot of potential. But they're all the same guy - a possession guy.

And a player like Evans should outperform our only real speed guy other than Moulds - Antonio Brown.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Jan Reimers



And a player like Evans should outperform our only real speed guy other than Moulds - Antonio Brown.

I would change that should to could. Like Tatonka says, you never know. But heck man, they didn't even TRY to use Antonio Brown.

One thing I usually go back to when someone tells me something about Brown either not being able to run good routes or have good hands last year is that I ask them who were the people evaluating them in the first place. The obvious answer to that question would be the coaching staff. The same coaching staff that was fired for being inept in the first place.

[juice]

Originally posted by Tatonka
what makes you so sure that a rookie is going to outperform any of our current receivers.

The need for speed.

[Tatonka]

ok.. so by your need for speed theory.. then reggie williams and mike williams are both out of the running for us then right? reggie williams ran a high 4.4 and a 4.5.. williams is a 4.5-4.6 runner.. and fitzgerald is a 4.5 runner too.. so the only guys we can take are roy williams, evans, jenkins or henderson are our only real options then right?

[juice]

I cant run a 4.5 and neither can anyone on the Bills starting offense(Moulds?)... I'd call that fast and I think they all have run Sub-4.5 times before.. a few of those were against the wind.

Your also talking about guys that are 6' 2 - 6'4... With that size you can have Randy Moss type abilities a 4.5 forty is plenty fast enough.

Evans is too small for first rd. consideration.

[Tatonka]

:rolleyes:

you just said speed.. now your saying something different.. and not only that.. but evans isnt good enough.. even though he is the same size as peerless.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
:rolleyes:

you just said speed.. now your saying something different.. and not only that.. but evans isnt good enough.. even though he is the same size as peerless.

Morning T!:snicker::up::beer:

[Earthquake Enyart]

This conversation reminds me of when the Bills had J.D. Hill and Bobby Chandler. Chandler had a radio show back then, and guys like you guys kept harping on the need for speed....

Chandler got so POed one time he said, "Look, I may not be the fastest guy around, but I guarantee that I could beat all you guys sitting in taverns in Buffalo...."

:ee:

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Tatonka
and people who mention that we need a guy to stretch the field.. we have moulds.. moulds is a deep threat. it is not like we need 2 of them. and moulds is here for at least another 3 years. like ted said, pat is gone after this year and sam will be gone shortly after, if not at the same time.

we can grab a guy like berry or pk sam that will have just as much of an impact as a roy williams.

In My view, the Biggest reason to go WR would be to replace Moulds in 2005 or 2006 because of the large cap number combined with age. If paying him what, 5-7 million (don't know exactly) is OK, then address WR in the coming years.


I don't think that the WR, with all the talent that came out this year and last at the position, will be plentiful in the draft again for a few years.

[Ebenezer]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
In My view, the Biggest reason to go WR would be to replace Moulds in 2005 or 2006 because of the large cap number combined with age. If paying him what, 5-7 million (don't know exactly) is OK, then address WR in the coming years.

Cap hit:
2004 $7.345 mil
2005 $8.75 mil
2006 $9.339 mil

something will have to give.

[Pride]

Originally posted by TheGhostofJimKelly
I'm not sure what that has to do with me putting down Peerless Price. Maybe I am missing something.

Sorry, wasnt slamming you. Just making the point that I feel it is on Gilbride, rather than our WR core.