Would you be mad if we drafted Rivers

[BillsSabresB.C.T. Fan]

Would you be mad if we selected Rivers?

[BlueFire]

Depends on who else is available.

[gonzo1105]

No not unless Manning is available and I really highly dont even give it a chance that that'll happen

[Devin]

depending on whos avail, but at 13 id love the idea.

[That Guy]

I don't like players who move up a lot just because of their workouts. I'd be wary of him... in the original mock drafts they had him going late first round/early second... now he's suddenly a top 5/10 pick. I'm not sure what made him go so far up, but it obviously wasn't his play on the field during an actual football game.

Either way, I guess I'd be okay with it, since they really need to go into the direction of quarterback eventually. However, in my opinion, he isn't anywhere close to Manning or Roethlisberger.

[gonzo1105]

Woah obviously not what he did on the field. That is his man credential along with all the intangibles. The reason he was a 2nd rounder was his delievery and suspect arm strength. Now GM's know his delivery isn't a problem and during his workouts showed better arm strength then they thought

[mypoorfriendme]

Originally posted by That Guy
I don't like players who move up a lot just because of their workouts. I'd be wary of him... in the original mock drafts they had him going late first round/early second... now he's suddenly a top 5/10 pick. I'm not sure what made him go so far up, but it obviously wasn't his play on the field during an actual football game.

Either way, I guess I'd be okay with it, since they really need to go into the direction of quarterback eventually. However, in my opinion, he isn't anywhere close to Manning or Roethlisberger.

i completely agree with you. one or two work outs shouldnt prove what scouts thought of you based on the last four years of school wrong. i like rivers and all, but if we take him over roy, mike, or tommie i will be very upset

[That Guy]

Let me say this, I'm not a big fan of the combine or any Pro Days to determine where a guy is going to go.

After watching him on the field they said 'This guy is going to go somewhere in the middle of Day One'. If they can tell that he's going to have problems from his play on the college field, most likely he's going to struggle a bit in the NFL. I don't think there should be ANYTHING, ANY FACTOR that moves a guy up 40 picks into the top 10 tier because of a workout on a college practice field against air.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by That Guy
I don't like players who move up a lot just because of their workouts. I'd be wary of him... in the original mock drafts they had him going late first round/early second... now he's suddenly a top 5/10 pick. I'm not sure what made him go so far up, but it obviously wasn't his play on the field during an actual football game.

Either way, I guess I'd be okay with it, since they really need to go into the direction of quarterback eventually. However, in my opinion, he isn't anywhere close to Manning or Roethlisberger.

I totally agree. When I see that, I think of Mike Mamula and guys like Erik Flowers. I am not too naive to think that they might actually be worth it, but I feel that if after the season they don't think he is worth a top ten pick, why would he all of the sudden move up after a couple all star games when the players have never played together before and they play vanilla offenses and defenses.

Welcome to the zone, I donated you some zonebucks.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by That Guy
I don't like players who move up a lot just because of their workouts. I'd be wary of him... in the original mock drafts they had him going late first round/early second... now he's suddenly a top 5/10 pick. I'm not sure what made him go so far up, but it obviously wasn't his play on the field during an actual football game.

Either way, I guess I'd be okay with it, since they really need to go into the direction of quarterback eventually. However, in my opinion, he isn't anywhere close to Manning or Roethlisberger.



Originally posted by chernobylwraiths
I totally agree. When I see that, I think of Mike Mamula and guys like Erik Flowers. I am not too naive to think that they might actually be worth it, but I feel that if after the season they don't think he is worth a top ten pick, why would he all of the sudden move up after a couple all star games when the players have never played together before and they play vanilla offenses and defenses.

Welcome to the zone, I donated you some zonebucks.


Originally posted by That Guy
Let me say this, I'm not a big fan of the combine or any Pro Days to determine where a guy is going to go.

After watching him on the field they said 'This guy is going to go somewhere in the middle of Day One'. If they can tell that he's going to have problems from his play on the college field, most likely he's going to struggle a bit in the NFL. I don't think there should be ANYTHING, ANY FACTOR that moves a guy up 40 picks into the top 10 tier because of a workout on a college practice field against air.

hey guys.. you are way off here... way off. i can understand your concern of a workout warrior.. but i would put a guy like ben watson in that class.. not rivers.. watson was a 3 round guy.. then ran a 4.4 and benched 34 reps and scored a 31 on his wonderlic and shot up the charts to a early 2nd guy..

rivers is not same at all.. his college stats are much better than that of almost all college qbs.. ever. there was never any doubt about his college skill. the reason that he was considered a 2nd/3rd round guy is because scouts and gms were concerned about his release and arm strength.. plain and simple. his work outs have not been spectacular.. nothing above the ordinary.. there were in no way superior to what big ben did in his work out, with the 60 yard bomb standing flat footed.. the simple fact is that scouts and gms got to meet him.. see his release up close.. see that he was capable of making all the throws.. and when they got those reassurances, along with the fact that he was absolutely dominant in college over the 51 games he started, it is easy to see why he moved up.

he is far from a workout warrior..

[The Spaz]

41 on his wonderlic!:snicker::beers:

[Tatonka]

same difference. :D

[That Guy]

I understand what the argument is here, but I don't understand what could possibly move a guy up 40 picks. Plain and simple, this guy was a second round pick after playing four seasons of surely outstanding college football. That's all I need to know. After playing the actual game of football, he was a second round pick. In my opinion, nothing that a GM sees in a workout can justifiably move a player up forty spots.

I'm young, so I'll use this reference as well as I can.... but Rick Mirer was barely in the Top 100 on Mel Kiper's overall draft list in 1993. I'd say he was only picked at second overall because of things that were seen off the field, or because Seattle was desperate for a quarterback, and the best one was gone (Bledsoe). He turned out very well, eh?

Am I saying that Rivers is Rick Mirer? No. Am I saying Rivers is going to turn out bad? No. Am I saying that 13 is still a risky place to take Rivers? Yes.

[lunatic_bills_fan]

Originally posted by Tatonka







hey guys.. you are way off here... way off. i can understand your concern of a workout warrior.. but i would put a guy like ben watson in that class.. not rivers.. watson was a 3 round guy.. then ran a 4.4 and benched 34 reps and scored a 31 on his wonderlic and shot up the charts to a early 2nd guy..

rivers is not same at all.. his college stats are much better than that of almost all college qbs.. ever. there was never any doubt about his college skill. the reason that he was considered a 2nd/3rd round guy is because scouts and gms were concerned about his release and arm strength.. plain and simple. his work outs have not been spectacular.. nothing above the ordinary.. there were in no way superior to what big ben did in his work out, with the 60 yard bomb standing flat footed.. the simple fact is that scouts and gms got to meet him.. see his release up close.. see that he was capable of making all the throws.. and when they got those reassurances, along with the fact that he was absolutely dominant in college over the 51 games he started, it is easy to see why he moved up.

he is far from a workout warrior..

I dunno T, I cant see them being able to make that kind of decision on "seeing it up close", these scouts had 4 years of sseing this kid play if they wanted. Everyone already knew how he throws.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by That Guy
I understand what the argument is here, but I don't understand what could possibly move a guy up 40 picks.

first of all..you dont know he was considered a second round pick.. you know what "draft experts" thought he would be.

rivers didnt have to throw a ton of deep balls in college.. that was not the offense they ran.. he also threw the ball a bit weird. scouts and gms got a chance to see that it was not going to be an issue and that was the only thing that would have conceivably been a concern.

therefore, once those issues were investigated and cleared up, they ranked him where he is now.

my point is that he is NOT a workout warrior.. he isnt doing anything different than he was expected to do at workouts.. the simple fact is that people didnt know enough about him and know they do and he will be drafted accordingly because of that.

[That Guy]

Don't the 'draft experts' get the word from scouts? And then the lesser 'draft experts' get it from the bigger 'draft experts'... that's how it always seemed to me lol.

I'm just not convinced that these guys watched him play for four years and missed something about him that would move him up a full round.

If he had question marks large enough to set him back to the second round, I'm not sure something like that can suddenly be shored up in two months time.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Tatonka
hey guys.. you are way off here... way off. i can understand your concern of a workout warrior.. but i would put a guy like ben watson in that class.. not rivers.. watson was a 3 round guy.. then ran a 4.4 and benched 34 reps and scored a 31 on his wonderlic and shot up the charts to a early 2nd guy..

rivers is not same at all.. his college stats are much better than that of almost all college qbs.. ever. there was never any doubt about his college skill. the reason that he was considered a 2nd/3rd round guy is because scouts and gms were concerned about his release and arm strength.. plain and simple. his work outs have not been spectacular.. nothing above the ordinary.. there were in no way superior to what big ben did in his work out, with the 60 yard bomb standing flat footed.. the simple fact is that scouts and gms got to meet him.. see his release up close.. see that he was capable of making all the throws.. and when they got those reassurances, along with the fact that he was absolutely dominant in college over the 51 games he started, it is easy to see why he moved up.

he is far from a workout warrior..

I understand what you are saying T, but disagree with you one one point. I thought his stock raised after the senior bowl game when he carved up the defense. Plus, I don't see how even an experienced GM would reasses his decision based on an interview and seeing the guy's release up close.

But then again, we hired Gregg Williams after a good interview. :D

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by chernobylwraiths
I understand what you are saying T, but disagree with you one one point. I thought his stock raised after the senior bowl game when he carved up the defense. Plus, I don't see how even an experienced GM would reasses his decision based on an interview and seeing the guy's release up close.

But then again, we hired Gregg Williams after a good interview. :D


his stock rose when he went through a week of practices at the senior bowl when they were able to see him practice in conjunction with his bowl game against the best seniors in the country.

but regardless.. the definition of a workout warrior would be a guy that had poor to average college numbers then because he had incredible work outs moved up, because teams disregarded his bad or mediocere play and just looked at his speed and strength..

rivers has better college numbers than any of the current draft picks and that is the majority of why his is there.

[That Guy]

Klingler had amazing numbers too.


Either way, I don't think question marks as large as that can be measured up in a couple workouts and practices.

[smack541]

Rivers would be fine with me if Winslow or Roy Williams still werent on the board.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by That Guy
Don't the 'draft experts' get the word from scouts? And then the lesser 'draft experts' get it from the bigger 'draft experts'... that's how it always seemed to me lol.

I'm just not convinced that these guys watched him play for four years and missed something about him that would move him up a full round.

If he had question marks large enough to set him back to the second round, I'm not sure something like that can suddenly be shored up in two months time.

Seriously, most of these "draft experts" are clowns. If you are an NFL scout, why would you give them info of any value for them to make a buck on? And it only hurts you in the long run if you really like the guy!


Draft experts are used as pawns by some to inflate or devalue a player's stock. But when it all boils down to it, NFL teams aren't going near the media or draft internet sites to build their draft boards. Each has a plan. Some better than others, but that's for another discussion.

If Mel Kiper, Frank Coyle, or any other of these dart board draft gurus rank Rivers as a 2nd round pick- it's based purely on their own scouting instincts- which are for the most part terrible.

[That Guy]

So you're telling me that the media and the teams keep COMPLETELY seperate? No tip-offs or anything?

I find that hard to believe... the draft guys are usually dead-on to the range of where a player is selected. Not very often does an alleged "first round guy" slip to the third... and not often does a "third round guy" get taken in the top 30.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by That Guy
Klingler had amazing numbers too.


Either way, I don't think question marks as large as that can be measured up in a couple workouts and practices.

that is a great freaking avatar!!

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Tatonka



his stock rose when he went through a week of practices at the senior bowl when they were able to see him practice in conjunction with his bowl game against the best seniors in the country.

but regardless.. the definition of a workout warrior would be a guy that had poor to average college numbers then because he had incredible work outs moved up, because teams disregarded his bad or mediocere play and just looked at his speed and strength..

rivers has better college numbers than any of the current draft picks and that is the majority of why his is there.

I understand what a workout warrior is. I know it usually has to do with actual workouts or working out, not games. But even the BEST college players aren't usually as good as a decent NFL journeyman, and that is who he will be playing against. Players that would dominate in a college game.

There have also been players who had incredible numbers in college that just didn't translate into NFL numbers. Players like Doug Flutie, Corey Moore, and any RB that came out of Penn State.

I'm not saying he will be bad, or that he won't be able to overcome his unusual throwing style. I am just saying that I am uncomfortable with players that make big jumps up the charts that aren't based on games.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by That Guy
So you're telling me that the media and the teams keep COMPLETELY seperate? No tip-offs or anything?

I find that hard to believe... the draft guys are usually dead-on to the range of where a player is selected. Not very often does an alleged "first round guy" slip to the third... and not often does a "third round guy" get taken in the top 30.


yeah.. like rien long.. the 1st rounder that went in the 4th and eddie more.. the 5th rounder that went in the 2nd. it happens all the time.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Tatonka



yeah.. like rien long.. the 1st rounder that went in the 4th and eddie more.. the 5th rounder that went in the 2nd. it happens all the time.

I remember getting close to the draft that Long started dropping down the charts because he played to stiff or something like that. Said he had trouble getting off blocks. From what I understand, that came from scouts.

What it REALLY all boils down to is, some of us will listen to "draft experts", some of us won't, and some of us feel that we can conclude things based on a lot of info on the internet. I KNOW that I don't know crap when it comes to college players and how their skills will translate into the pros. But I also know that a lot of first rounders bust and plenty of players from rounds two through seven do too, so the scouts aren't all that great either. :)

[Tatonka]

well i personally judge rivers on what i have seen with my own eyes. i personally think he played well enough to be a top pick. he was incredible against the best competition. i personally love the guy and i also think that he is the style of qb that will absolutely perfect for MM's new offense.

i would be happy if we got him.. i also dont think we will.

[That Guy]

Even though Rien Long was predicted fairly high... not only did he drop near the end, but he also was still like the twelth rated defensive lineman out of last year's supposedly stellar class. After the first five or six, you ran out of teams that needed defensive lineman. That is just supply and demand.

[elltrain22]

I for one, would be absolutely ecstatic if we choose Rivers. Philip Rivers will be a good NFL quarterback, period.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

Welcome aboard that guy, it appears you and I are in the same boat. The anti-Rivers contingent grows daily around here. Don't worry about these guys that cream all over Rivers. You won't change their minds on the guy. They are still ga-ga over the "winner" label. Everyone here has been hearing what a gutsy player he is.

That being said, if this is said, With the 13th pick in the NFL draft, the Buffalo Bills select QB from North Carolina State...., I wouldn't be mad or upset. It will tell me that the three offensive "gurus" the team hired to fix this offense feel that he is capable of being a star NFL QB. Not only is the team telling their "franchise" QB that he is not in their future plans, but they are also committing 1st round money on a QB.

Another thing, the Bills are the last organization that I believe. They say they are going to draft a QB and a WR in the first round? I will believe it when I see it.

[NC-BILLS44]

To answer the question, I would not be mad if the Bills draft Rivers. I would love the Bills to draft Philip Rivers!!

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by TheGhostofJimKelly
1) Don't worry about these guys that cream all over Rivers. You won't change their minds on the guy. They are still ga-ga over the "winner" label. Everyone here has been hearing what a gutsy player he is.

2) Another thing, the Bills are the last organization that I believe. They say they are going to draft a QB and a WR in the first round? I will believe it when I see it.


1) as usual.. nicely put.. very tactful. :D

2) good point... we are taking harris. :D