EXPERT's MOCK DRAFT

[DraftBoy]

Tatonka, Spaz, Ingtar, Dozer and myself got together this evening and pounded out a 2 round mock draft. Here it is so have fun with it.

1st Round:
trades-
SD trades #1 Overall to NYG for #4, 2nd 04, and 2nd 05
CLE trades #7 Overall to PIT for #11, 1st 05, 2nd 04

NYG-QB Manning
OAK-OT Gallery
ARZ-WR Fitzy
SD-QB Rivers
WAS-FS Taylor
DET-RB Jackson
PIT-QB Rothlesiburger
ATL-WR R. Williams
JAX-TE Winslow
HOU-DE Smith
CLE-CB Hall
NYJ-WR R. Williams
BUF-DT Harris
CHI-DT Wilfork
TB-WR Woods
SF-DE Udeze
DEN-RB K. Jones
NO-CB Robinson
MIN-LB Williams
MIA-OG Andrews
NE-OG Carey
DAL-OG Smiley
SEA-LB Vilma
CIN-CB Gamble
GB-WR Evans
STL-TE Troupe
TEN-DT Stark
PHI-RB G. Jones
IND-FS S. Jones
KC-LB Karlos Dansby
CAR-WR Clayton
NE-DT Tubbs
----------------------------------------------------
ROUND 2:
ARZ-DT Olanshky
SD-OG Snee
SD-TE Watson
DET-DT Edwards
CLE-WR Jenkins
ATL-DT Dockett
JAX-CB Poole
HOU-OC Grove
DEN-WR Henderson
TEN-OT Dorsey
BUF-QB Losman
CLE-LB Daryl Smith
OAK-LB Micheal Boulware
CHI-RB Chris Perry
NO-LB Thompson
CIN-OC Stepanovich
MIN-DE Odom
BAL-WR Darling
DAL-DT Sopaga
SEA-DT Washington
DEN-CB Ware
GB-DE Hill
CIN-RB Bell
TEN-DE Babin
PHI-WR Hamilton
IND-CB Carroll
NO-OT Pape
KC-CB Coclough
CAR-FS Schweigert
NE-LB Lehman

Well thats it, thats our mock. I must say we did a damn good job of it too. I think these picks could legitamtely happen. Ill bet ZB;s on some of them. Ill add a write up later on.

[Tatonka]

good work!

[TKO]

Tommie Harris AND J.P. Losman :up:

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka
good work!

my friggin hand hurts now thanks to you guys.

[SoCalBillsFan]

The "self-proclaimed experts'" mock draft :snicker:

[BigZ]

not bad

[chernobylwraiths]

We pass up Udeze for Harris, I hope not. I like the Losman pick though.

[mypoorfriendme]

personally, im not quite sold on losman in rd 2 yet

[willis_mchenry]

Good work, but isn't Woods too high, or do you think he will be selected in the mid-1st round?

[Bmax]

no way roy williams lasts that long and the bills will not draft a dt tommie harris with guys like lee evans on the board.... evans will picked by pick 20......


Bmax

[SoCalBillsFan]

I think detroit will trade down if they are gonna take jackson.

[SeatownBillsFan21]

No way this happens sorry.

[clumping platelets]

Steelers gave up more to move from #11 to #7 than Giants did to move from #4 to #1.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by SoCalBillsFan
I think detroit will trade down if they are gonna take jackson.

We tried to deal it to Buffalo at 13 but half the experts balked at the price


Originally posted by clumping platelets
Steelers gave up more to move from #11 to #7 than Giants did to move from #4 to #1.

That's what I said-

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
my friggin hand hurts now thanks to you guys.

stop looking at porn. ;)


Originally posted by willis_mchenry
Good work, but isn't Woods too high, or do you think he will be selected in the mid-1st round?

that was my pick.. yeah.. it was high.. and we all commented on it.. but it just seemed to fit.. and that kind of stuff happens every draft.. he would be a great replacement for meshawn.


Originally posted by SoCalBillsFan
I think detroit will trade down if they are gonna take jackson.

the trade down wasnt a viable option, based on what ingtar said it would cost the bills.


Originally posted by clumping platelets
Steelers gave up more to move from #11 to #7 than Giants did to move from #4 to #1.

i agreed.. i said 2 firsts and a 3rd this year at the most.. but :idunno:


Originally posted by SeatownBillsFan21
No way this happens sorry.

thanks for breaking it down for us.. :rolleyes:

[Big M]

The compensation for trades can be debated, still, a very good job. Harris and Losman would be a great start through 2 rounds.

:bf1:

[Tatonka]

i thought so too.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Bmax
no way roy williams lasts that long and the bills will not draft a dt tommie harris with guys like lee evans on the board.... evans will picked by pick 20......


Bmax



Ummm...Why wouldnt Roy Williams last this long? If your gonna criticize it at least tell us where he would go and why. We would pass on the best DT in the draft for Lee Evans? You gotta be kidding me.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by clumping platelets
Steelers gave up more to move from #11 to #7 than Giants did to move from #4 to #1.

The reasoning that Ingtar gave us was because the top 10 picks are so valuable and that Cleveland would get a bidding war between us and Pittsburg. When we said 2 1sts and a 3rd we all said the Bills would do it. He countered and said the Steelers would go as high as a second instead of a third and we all balked at it.

So the reasons the price was so steep is:
1. Its a bigger jump 4 spots instead of 3
2. It from outta the top 10 into the 10
3. Cleveland would likely get a bidding war going between B-Lo and Pittsburg

Trust me we beat these two trades to death and in the end these were the only ones we could realistically see happening.

[clumping platelets]

ATL took Roy Williams and Jets took Reggie Williams??

Jets, lacking a #2 due to the acquistion of WR Justin McCareins, will be going defense. They can get a decent WR in rd 3.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by clumping platelets
ATL took Roy Williams and Jets took Reggie Williams??

Jets, lacking a #2 due to the acquistion of WR Justin McCareins, will be going defense. They can get a decent WR in rd 3.

But with the expected release of Wayne Chrebet coming after June 1st that leaves the Jets with McCareins as their #2 a posistion he is yet to play and not familiar with. Ala Peerless in Atlanta. The Jets have no running game and no TE. With Chrebet gone they need to replace him and Reggie Williams is the best value WR left on the board with this pick. Also with Mike Williams not being eligible it bumps all receivers up. So some players like Derrick Hamilton and others wont/may not be available in the 3rd. There has yet to be a big run on CB's and we dont forsee one happening which is the Jets weakest posistion. They can pick up a really good one in rd 3. Derrick Strait, Keiwan Ratliff, Shantea Spencer are all still available.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by SoCalBillsFan
I think detroit will trade down if they are gonna take jackson.


Where to? Detroit could move down to Buffalo's pick but with a drop of 7 spots and out fo the top 10 we are gonna be paying a buttload and I dont think TD will pay it to be honest with you. I dont know where they would deal down to the pick was made due to lack of trading partners.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by chernobylwraiths
We pass up Udeze for Harris, I hope not. I like the Losman pick though.

Why take another DE so high? We have Schoebel on one side for atleast another season, and Kelsay and Denney on the other. Give these players time to develop first and formost. DT is a mich bigger need.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka


stop looking at porn. ;)


:dink:

[clumping platelets]

D.J. Williams fills a need for the Jets.......he's worth the #12

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by clumping platelets
D.J. Williams fills a need for the Jets.......he's worth the #12

Fox (GT), and Pope would fill that same voide on their D for 1/4 of the money. Williams is the best LB by far but on OLB these two are my 4 and 5 guys and the top 5 are by far and away the best.

[Tatonka]

there are always critics.. no one is gonna agree with every pick..

the draft was 5 guys who have done their homework as much as can be expected, and one is a pro scout..

we went with the consensus, so at least 3 had to agree. it isnt easy to get that. it took us over 2 hours just to do 2 rounds. believe me, there was plenty of debate and back and forth..

this is our final product. take it or leave it.

:box:

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
there are always critics.. no one is gonna agree with every pick..

the draft was 5 guys who have done their homework as much as can be expected, and one is a pro scout..

we went with the consensus, so at least 3 had to agree. it isnt easy to get that. it took us over 2 hours just to do 2 rounds. believe me, there was plenty of debate and back and forth..

this is our final product. take it or leave it.

:box:

:beers:

[ShadowHawk7]

If Roy did last to the Jets at 12, I'd hope the Bills would trade up a spot and get him. Other than that, nice job guys. Harris and Losman ain't too bad!

[Tatonka]

that is reggie to the jets.. roy was gone.

[Dantheman1280]

I don't agree with Losman( he reminds me of RJ, sry I am Prejudice), But this was one of the best mock drafts I have seen yet. Great work guys. BRAVO!!

[lordofgun]

Originally posted by Dantheman1280
I don't agree with Losman( he reminds me of RJ, sry I am Prejudice), But this was one of the best mock drafts I have seen yet. Great work guys. BRAVO!!

I really don't see the comparison to RJ...not at all. explain? :huh:

[Dantheman1280]

He just looks like him. Not like a clone but I can see similarities!

[THATHURMANATOR]

Originally posted by DraftBoy




Ummm...Why wouldnt Roy Williams last this long? If your gonna criticize it at least tell us where he would go and why. We would pass on the best DT in the draft for Lee Evans? You gotta be kidding me.

agreed.

[basenjiwarrior]

How can anyone claim to be an "expert" and pick Tommie Harris over Udeze?

Harris finished 11th on the team (Oklahoma) in tackles last year...and that doesn't even address his lack of big play production.

[Ingtar33]

yes, a few points to clear up confusion.

The lowest price conceived for the bills to move up to #6 and take Detroit’s pick and gain Big Ben, was Travis Henry and swapping firsts. I was the only "expert" who thought the price was low enough that the Bills would pay it. Remember folks, trades are a two way street, and you have to give up something to get something.

That said, at least half the guys we have going in the second could go in the first most years, this draft is looking more and more like the deepest in memory.

Do i agree with all of these? No, but i think this highly possible for the most part. The price for the Giants might turn out to be a little on the low side (maybe) but then again we have a desperate buyer and seller, so a cheap trade is very possible. Besides, that price is neither an over payment nor an under payment.

Is the Pit-Cle trade a little on the high side? Yes, but then your asking Cle to move back and out of the "assumed" pick of Winslow/Ben R (yes they like Big Ben enough to draft him here), AND you have two teams desperate to move into the #7 slot for Big Ben. Two teams drives up the price. Cle's reluctance to move drives it up higher. The resulting bidding war turned into a question of "how high will these teams go?" Pitt we figured would be willing to give up 2 firsts and a 2nd, and we figured that price was just too much for Buf. (the 2 1st and a 3rd was the highest we could see TD go)

Yes, there were some surprises. Roy Williams to Atlanta was a Falcons wet dream, Kellen Winslow to Jax was dream come true for Leftwich. Harris on the board all the way to Buffalo was a bit of a surprise, but still it is something I'd give an even money bet on though.

A heavy run on WR happened, another thing you'll see this Saturday... im not sure it will be this heavy, but then stranger things have happened. We almost had Losman going in Round 1 to two separate teams (who they were escapes me now), so he might not be there in round 2.

It pains me to admit it, but all the OL who are most needed in buffalo, will be gone by our second pick. If we want O-line high, we'll have to take it at 13, because Carey, Snee and Grove will be gone by our pick in the 2nd.

Oh, and the Pats got away with robbery in this draft. Not to mention their early draft pick, 56 pick for Corry Dillon. ***** the Pats

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
yes, a few points to clear up confusion.

The lowest price conceived for the bills to move up to #6 and take Detroit’s pick and gain Big Ben, was Travis Henry and swapping firsts. I was the only "expert" who thought the price was low enough that the Bills would pay it. Remember folks, trades are a two way street, and you have to give up something to get something.

That said, at least half the guys we have going in the second could go in the first most years, this draft is looking more and more like the deepest in memory.

Do i agree with all of these? No, but i think this highly possible for the most part. The price for the Giants might turn out to be a little on the low side (maybe) but then again we have a desperate buyer and seller, so a cheap trade is very possible. Besides, that price is neither and over payment nor an under payment.

Is the Pit-Cle trade a little on the high side? Yes, but then your asking Cle to move back and out of the "assumed" pick of Winslow/Ben R (yes they like Big Ben enough to draft him here), AND you have two teams desperate to move into the #7 slot for Big Ben. Two teams drives up the price. Cle's reluctance to move drives it up higher. The resulting bidding war turned into a question of "how high will these teams go?" Pitt we figured would be willing to give up 2 firsts and a 2nd, and we figured that price was just too much for Buf. (the 2 1st and a 3rd was the highest we could see TD go)

Yes, there were some surprises. Roy Williams to Atlanta was a Falcons wet dream, Kellen Winslow to Jax was dream come true for Leftwich. Harris on the board all the way to Buffalo was a bit of a surprise, but still it is something I'd give an even money bet on though.

A heavy run on WR happened, another thing you'll see this Saturday... im not sure it will be this heavy, but then stranger things have happened. We almost had Losman going in Round 1 to two separate teams (who they were escapes me now), so he might not be there in round 2.

It pains me to admit it, but all the OL who are most needed in buffalo, will be gone by our second pick. If we want O-line high, we'll have to take it at 13, because Carey, Snee and Grove will be gone by our pick in the 2nd.

Oh, and the Pats got away with robbery in this draft. Not to mention their early draft pick, 56 pick for Corry Dillon. ***** the Pats


Very well said and the teams were the Pack and the Rams.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
How can anyone claim to be an "expert" and pick Tommie Harris over Udeze?

Harris finished 11th on the team (Oklahoma) in tackles last year...and that doesn't even address his lack of big play production.

that is such an assinine post.

he is a DT, not a DE.. they have 2 different roles.

[Bmax]

the giants could take roy with pick 4 .....listening to ernie yesterday on mike and the mad dog ...he said he love gallery and manning .. but if he had to he would stay put and consider roy....

I think they may have to ..san diego wants a ton....of comp for the pick.. I am not thrilled with tommie harris ...We need guys on the edge....Not middle pluggers..plus harris is only 295...I was more impressed with lsu nt chad lavalis (sp)....

Harris i feel will be gone any way to either atlanta or houston...


You guys-(draft experts) have selling evans short all post season...the guy can play and will be a star the bills didn't bring him in for nothing.......Speed kills....

Oh by the way freel free to rip on my mock when it goes up tomorrow

Bmax

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
How can anyone claim to be an "expert" and pick Tommie Harris over Udeze?

Harris finished 11th on the team (Oklahoma) in tackles last year...and that doesn't even address his lack of big play production.

I guess winning the Lombardi Award for the best defenisive linemen means nothing.:rolleyes:

[Earthquake Enyart]

You guys did a good job. How come I wasn't invited? :mad:

Atlanta and Jacksonville would be creaming in their pants if it fell this way.

[basenjiwarrior]

Tatonka- your claim to be an "expert" is whats really assinine!

I'm glad your swift enough to realize that Harris and Udeze do not play the same position.

The bottom line is Harris did not make enough plays in college for a penetrating/tackle prospect. (since he is not a run stuffer)

Personally I see the argument for taking either a defensive tackle or end...I am not stuck on taking one or another....but if we do take one at the 13th pick let it be a difference maker!

Your immature response to my post only reaffirms what an "expert" you are....

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
Tatonka- your claim to be an "expert" is whats really assinine!

I'm glad your swift enough to realize that Harris and Udeze do not play the same position.

The bottom line is Harris did not make enough plays in college for a penetrating/tackle prospect. (since he is not a run stuffer)

Personally I see the argument for taking either a defensive tackle or end...I am not stuck on taking one or another....but if we do take one at the 13th pick let it be a difference maker!

Your immature response to my post only reaffirms what an "expert" you are....

I repeat Tommie Harris won the Lombardi Award for the best defensive linemen in college football!:up:

[basenjiwarrior]

Originally posted by The Spaz


I guess winning the Lombardi Award for the best defenisive linemen means nothing.:rolleyes:



Don't forget that Walt Patulski also won the Lombardi trophy!

The Lombardi trophy is not a very good indicator of future success in the NFL.

[Ingtar33]

Harris was a playmaker, and i probably should remind you all, he's bigger than Pat Williams was when he finished up college.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
Don't forget that Walt Patulski also won the Lombardi trophy!

The Lombardi trophy is not a very good indicator of future success in the NFL.


Hey! You can take all the shots at Tatonka that you want.....

But taking shots at Walt Patulski is totally unacceptable. :mad: I was a proud member of Patulski's Polish Army - The Pole Patrol to the Super Bowl. :ee:

[basenjiwarrior]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart



Hey! You can take all the shots at Tatonka that you want.....

But taking shots at Walt Patulski is totally unacceptable. :mad: I was a proud member of Patulski's Polish Army - The Pole Patrol to the Super Bowl. :ee:


Sorry! I mean no disrespect to the Army!

[Earthquake Enyart]

Past Winners

1970 Jim Stillwagon (Ohio State)
1971 Walt Patulski (Notre Dame)
1972 Rich Glover (Nebraska)
1973 John Hicks (Ohio State)
1974 Randy White (Maryland)
1975 Lee Roy Selmon (Oklahoma)
1976 Wilson Whitley (Houston)
1977 Ross Browner (Notre Dame)
1978 Bruce Clark (Penn State)
1979 Brad Budde (Southern Cal)
1980 Hugh Green (Pittsburgh)
1981 Kenneth Sims (Texas)
1982 Dave Rimington (Nebraska)
1983 Dean Steinkuhler (Nebraska)
1984 Tony Degrate (Texas)
1985 Tony Casillas (Oklahoma)
1986 Cornelius Bennett (Alabama)
1987 Chris Spielman (Ohio State)
1988 Tracy Rocker (Auburn)
1989 Percy Snow (Michigan State)
1990 Chris Zorich (Notre Dame)
1991 Steve Emtman (Washington)
1992 Marvin Jones (Florida State)
1993 Aaron Taylor (Notre Dame)
1994 Warren Sapp (Miami)
1995 Orlando Pace (Ohio State)
1996 Orlando Pace (Ohio State)
1997 Grant Wistrom (Nebraska)
1998 Dat Nguyen
1999 Corey Moore (Virginia Tech)
2000 Jamal Reynolds (Florida State)
2001 Julius Peppers (North Carolina)
2002 Terrell Suggs (Arizona State)
2003 Tommie Harris (Oklahoma)


Not a bad list.

[basenjiwarrior]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
Harris was a playmaker, and i probably should remind you all, he's bigger than Pat Williams was when he finished up college.

Do you see Harris staying at tackle...or possibly rotating to end depending on schemes ?

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
Do you see Harris staying at tackle...or possibly rotating to end depending on schemes ?

Tell us you're the expert...

[basenjiwarrior]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
Past Winners

1970 Jim Stillwagon (Ohio State)
1971 Walt Patulski (Notre Dame)
1972 Rich Glover (Nebraska)
1973 John Hicks (Ohio State)
1974 Randy White (Maryland)
1975 Lee Roy Selmon (Oklahoma)
1976 Wilson Whitley (Houston)
1977 Ross Browner (Notre Dame)
1978 Bruce Clark (Penn State)
1979 Brad Budde (Southern Cal)
1980 Hugh Green (Pittsburgh)
1981 Kenneth Sims (Texas)
1982 Dave Rimington (Nebraska)
1983 Dean Steinkuhler (Nebraska)
1984 Tony Degrate (Texas)
1985 Tony Casillas (Oklahoma)
1986 Cornelius Bennett (Alabama)
1987 Chris Spielman (Ohio State)
1988 Tracy Rocker (Auburn)
1989 Percy Snow (Michigan State)
1990 Chris Zorich (Notre Dame)
1991 Steve Emtman (Washington)
1992 Marvin Jones (Florida State)
1993 Aaron Taylor (Notre Dame)
1994 Warren Sapp (Miami)
1995 Orlando Pace (Ohio State)
1996 Orlando Pace (Ohio State)
1997 Grant Wistrom (Nebraska)
1998 Dat Nguyen
1999 Corey Moore (Virginia Tech)
2000 Jamal Reynolds (Florida State)
2001 Julius Peppers (North Carolina)
2002 Terrell Suggs (Arizona State)
2003 Tommie Harris (Oklahoma)


Not a bad list.


I agree their is some huge impact players in that list...but also some incredible busts.....

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
Tatonka- your claim to be an "expert" is whats really assinine!

I'm glad your swift enough to realize that Harris and Udeze do not play the same position.

The bottom line is Harris did not make enough plays in college for a penetrating/tackle prospect. (since he is not a run stuffer)

Personally I see the argument for taking either a defensive tackle or end...I am not stuck on taking one or another....but if we do take one at the 13th pick let it be a difference maker!

Your immature response to my post only reaffirms what an "expert" you are....


i responded to your post.. you attacked me personally.. who is the immature one again?

[basenjiwarrior]

Originally posted by The Spaz


Tell us you're the expert...


Sorry... the question wasn't for a Spaz... bot was for Ingtar33

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
I agree their is some huge impact players in that list...but also some incredible busts.....

Better percentage than the Heisman. :snicker:

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
Sorry... the question wasn't for a Spaz... bot was for Ingtar33

why are you worried about his opinion.. he is one of the experts that picked harris over udeze.. so he must not know what he is talking about either right?

:rolleyes:

[Novacane]

I would be disapointed if we ended up with Harris

[basenjiwarrior]

Originally posted by Tatonka


why are you worried about his opinion.. he is one of the experts that picked harris over udeze.. so he must not know what he is talking about either right?

:rolleyes:


I never made a claim that Ingtar33 did not know what he was talking about.....that comment was directed at you! I am sorry that you are obviously so insecure....

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green
I would be disapointed if we ended up with Harris

Why?

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
I never made a claim that Ingtar33 did not know what he was talking about.....that comment was directed at you! I am sorry that you are obviously so insecure....

you said that the pick of harris was a horrible pick with udeze on the board.. i am telling you that ingtar jumped all over harris when he was still on the board.. and never even mentioned udeze, just like i did.. so obviously if he made such a horrible pick.. and he and i agree on it.. he must suck too.. by your logic.

way to come into the board with a bang.. 9 horrible posts after 8 days. welcome aboard! it can only get better.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
I am sorry

you said it.

:snicker:

[Novacane]

Originally posted by The Spaz


Why?


Because I would rather have Smith or Udeze too. Denny is going to be a bust........kelsey will be a nice backup at best IMO and we may lose Schobel next offseason. If udeze, and Harris were there I would have taken Udeze. Thats all.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green
Because I would rather have Smith or Udeze too. Denny is going to be a bust........kelsey will be a nice backup at best IMO and we may lose Schobel next offseason. If udeze, and Harris were there I would have taken Udeze. Thats all.

I like Udeze too but I just think Harris gives us more versatilty because he can play DE/DT.

[basenjiwarrior]

Originally posted by Tatonka


you said that the pick of harris was a horrible pick with udeze on the board.. i am telling you that ingtar jumped all over harris when he was still on the board.. and never even mentioned udeze, just like i did.. so obviously if he made such a horrible pick.. and he and i agree on it.. he must suck too.. by your logic.

way to come into the board with a bang.. 9 horrible posts after 8 days. welcome aboard! it can only get better.


So if do not agree with you my posts are horrible?
Your rant above shows the mentality of a two rear old!

Lets sit back and see how the careers of Harris and Udeze unfold and then we will have plenty of oppoerunities to revist this further.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
So if do not agree with you my posts are horrible?
Your rant above shows the mentality of a two rear old!

Lets sit back and see how the careers of Harris and Udeze unfold and then we will have plenty of oppoerunities to revist this further.

this was your first post..


Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
How can anyone claim to be an "expert" and pick Tommie Harris over Udeze?

Harris finished 11th on the team (Oklahoma) in tackles last year...and that doesn't even address his lack of big play production.

you didnt say.. i disagree with your pick.. you basically said.. if you pick harris over udeze, your no expert.. your a fool... that is what you said..

if you want to disagree... fine.. i have no problem with varying opinions.. but you came out firing.. dont insult 5 guys that have done and do more for this sight than your insignificant little 10 posts. i promise you that the 5 guys you questioned have a hell of alot more combined knowledge than you.

[Novacane]

Originally posted by The Spaz


I like Udeze too but I just think Harris gives us more versatilty because he can play DE/DT.


Just a personal preferance. Udeze could be a dominant pass rusher. I don't see that in Harris even at DE

[Ingtar33]

I think the Bills have spent plenty of Picks the last few years on DE, A DT of Harris's quality on the board when you're picking doesn't happen often.

He's head and shoulders better than any of the DTs who came out last year, and both Adams and Williams are over 30. Throw in the fact that we were top 10 in sacks last year, and i think the Bills are not that worried about the DEs. We have Denney and Kelsay, and can always sign another DE if the chance comes along, DTs the quality of Harris are rare.

Furthermore, unlike most teams who take a DT, we won't need Harris to start for 2 or 3 years. This is the best possible situation for an NFL DT, who often take a handful of years to fill out into the role. He's possibly one of the best inside pass rushing DT ive seen in a while, so he should see some time in the 3rd down defense right away.

So with Harris we would get. Potential all pro DT (3 years down the road). A 3rd down inside pass rusher (this will make both ends markedly better), and a guy who could move outside to RE and fight for starting time right away (something im not sure that Udeze could do, start i mean).

Too much good here to pass up.

[basenjiwarrior]

if you want to disagree... fine.. i have no problem with varying opinions..



As I mentioned in my above post let's watch the careers of Udeze and Harris play out....we will have plenty of time to revist this further.

I am going on record as saying Udeze will a bigger difference maker in the NFL than Harris.

[Tatonka]

ingtar, that cant be right.. because no expert would take harris over udeze. ask basenjiwarrior


:snicker:

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
if you want to disagree... fine.. i have no problem with varying opinions..



As I mentioned in my above post let's watch the careers of Udeze and Harris play out....we will have plenty of time to revist this further.

I am going on record as saying Udeze will a bigger difference maker in the NFL than Harris.

i hope your not taking the pick of harris as a knock on udeze, because it isnt.. i like udeze alot.. but like ing said.. in the last three years, we have used 3 second round picks on DEs..

that is enough for me right now.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
if you want to disagree... fine.. i have no problem with varying opinions..


that is what i said.. but you came right out firing with, "your no expert if you dont pick the guy i think we should pick".

not exactly the best way to disagree, and start a viable conversation.

[basenjiwarrior]

Originally posted by Tatonka


i hope your not taking the pick of harris as a knock on udeze, because it isnt.. i like udeze alot.. but like ing said.. in the last three years, we have used 3 second round picks on DEs..

that is enough for me right now.



Let's remember that given the choice between Harris and Udeze....

I would choose Udeze and you would choose Harris.

Take care.............

[Ingtar33]

um... a bit off course here... just drop it

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by basenjiwarrior
Let's remember that given the choice between Harris and Udeze....

I would choose Udeze and you would choose Harris.

Take care.............

i am sure you will be back in 3 years to rehash it. :rolleyes: funny you didnt address the way you approached us inthe first place, which was the reason for the whole disagreement. crawl back under your rock. great first impression.


Originally posted by Ingtar33
um... a bit off course here... just drop it

dropped.

[DraftBoy]

Harris is the best DL in the draft anybody who doesnt think that hasnt been watching CFB for the past two years or they woulda seen Harris's consistent double team and yet he was still a force to be reckoned with. Harris doesnt need the award to prove that as Philster says stats dont always tell the whole story and this is exceptionally true with DLmen.

Basen-please dont personally attack anyone, and if your going to may wanna pick somebody with a lot less respected opinion that Tatonka. I can honestly say he has some of the best knowledge on this draft behind Ing and Myself of course.

[SoCalBillsFan]

Originally posted by DraftBoy

I can honestly say he has some of the best knowledge on this draft behind Ing and Myself of course.

:lol:

as the expert on experts around here, I'll say that Ing is the only real expert of the group.

That's not to say that tatonka, draftboy, or anyone else isn't very well respected. You all have some great views and thoughts. But let's not throw the word expert around to frequently.

and remember, I'm the expert on this subject :snicker:

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by SoCalBillsFan


:lol:

as the expert on experts around here, I'll say that Ing is the only real expert of the group.

That's not to say that tatonka, draftboy, or anyone else isn't very well respected. You all have some great views and thoughts. But let's not throw the word expert around to frequently.

and remember, I'm the expert on this subject :snicker:

Where's your tag? No tag no Expert!

:lolpoint: No-Tag Expert

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
Where's your tag? No tag no Expert!

:lolpoint: No-Tag Expert

:rofl:
Originally posted by SoCalBillsFan
:lol:

as the expert on experts around here, I'll say that Ing is the only real expert of the group.

That's not to say that tatonka, draftboy, or anyone else isn't very well respected. You all have some great views and thoughts. But let's not throw the word expert around to frequently.

and remember, I'm the expert on this subject :snicker:

:mad:

:tongue:


Originally posted by DraftBoy
Basen-please dont personally attack anyone, and if your going to may wanna pick somebody with a lot less respected opinion that Tatonka. I can honestly say he has some of the best knowledge on this draft behind Ing and Myself of course.

thanks... i agree.. with almost all of that *coughexceptthebehindyoupartcough*

:snicker:

[chernobylwraiths]

Just saw the little disagreement. I think that Udeze should be picked before Harris. That is my personal opinion. Now I DON'T watch a lot of college football and get most of my thoughts from what I read on players. Here and on ESPN etc. That being said, I feel that the Bills need a dominant DE NOW. Or one that has the potential to be one in the next couple years. We haven't been in the position to draft the most dominant DE in a draft in years except for the Mike Williams year and I think everybody knew we needed help on the Oline more. I look at the arguement that we have taken DEs in the second round for three straight years. Let's look at that. Schobel has shown that he looks to be the best of the bunch. He even made decent sack numbers his rookie year. Denney did nothing his rookie year and marginally more his second even though he started his second year. Some are already labelling him a bust. Kelsay is unproven, but I have to seriously question why a defensive coach wouldn't put him into more situations near the end of the season, especially when it was apparent that we weren't going anywhere. Add to that the fact that Schobel is a free agent at the end of this season and you have a possible need on those points alone.

It has also been stated that our defense was top 10 in sacks last year. Can anybody hear really say that we put a significant amount of pressure on QBs last year? Can you say that we did it when we really had too? I think maybe our sack numbers should be more a testament to decent coverage. I'm not saying we had good coverage all year, but I did notice on a lot of occasions that the opposing teams QBs had eons to throw the ball. I like Schobel a lot, but I feel that he will command far more on the FA market than he is worth. Kind of like Grant Wistrom. I don't see us retaining him, especially if we make an effort to retain either Jonas Jennings or Big Pat. In Udeze, the Bills get a gifted player with a lot of upside. Harris might be the next John Randel and I guess I wouldn't be too upset if we got him, but I just like Udeze better. With this being a win now type team, I see the need of a possible top DE on a team with a whole at DE above a top DT on a team already with two top DT right now.

[Tatonka]

that is how you say "i would take udeze over harris" without slamming someone.

chern, that was a good post.. and in the end you may be right.. but the front office has to decide that.. if either are even around.. there is also some hope that we extend schobel, as it was reported last month that they are talking to him about staying. and i am not ready to give up on kelsay just yet. if he and denny are horrible this season, there is always FA after the year is over.. someone like Ogun will be a FA.

[Tatonka]

also, grey has come out publically and stated that he thinks that kelsay is gonna be a good one.. so we know where the d coordinator stands on the issue.

[STAMPY]

UDEZE!!! But to be totally honest getting Udeze or Tommie Harris and ending up with my main man JP LOSMAN! And i will be ecstatic! Harris and Udeze are both great assets to our team, it's not like one of them is OVER RATED

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Tatonka
that is how you say "i would take udeze over harris" without slamming someone.

Slamming others only caused resentment and bitterness. I don't see that on this board often, and most of the slamming seems to be in good natured anyways.


Originally posted by Tatonka

chern, that was a good post.. and in the end you may be right.. but the front office has to decide that.. if either are even around.. there is also some hope that we extend schobel, as it was reported last month that they are talking to him about staying. and i am not ready to give up on kelsay just yet. if he and denny are horrible this season, there is always FA after the year is over.. someone like Ogun will be a FA.

I'm not writing off Kelsay either, just wondering why he wasn't used much when Denney didn't seem to be getting the job done and didn't put much pressure at all on the QB. I hope we can sign Schobel to a cap friendly multiyear deal too. But if we get a dominant DE, I think Schobel would be better suited to the other side. You never know with Ogun too, he might be traded still and sign his big contract.

[STAMPY]

i really don't think JP lasts till round 2, unless we trade down. We should talk to dallas, they need a RB, they can move up grab jackson, and we can grab JP then :snicker:

[STAMPY]

Draftboy isn't an Expert pssst... He's a GURU... And LOSMAN BACKER

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by chernobylwraiths
Slamming others only caused resentment and bitterness. I don't see that on this board often, and most of the slamming seems to be in good natured anyways.


95% of it is.. except when EE is talking about phil. they used to date and it was a bitter break up.

:snicker:

[STAMPY]

Originally posted by Tatonka
95% of it is.. except when EE is talking about phil. they used to date and it was a bitter break up.

:snicker:

I never knew Phil was gay :jawdrop:

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by BuffaloBillsSTAMPEDE


I never knew Phil was gay :jawdrop:

Refer to the post where he calls the person who cuts his hair his hairdresser. That should tell you all you need to know!:banme:

[Tatonka]

:rofl:

maybe the jills thing is an act?

phil?

:D

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by Tatonka
95% of it is.. except when EE is talking about phil. they used to date and it was a bitter break up.

:snicker:

Lowest blow ever. :mad:

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
Lowest blow ever. :mad:

:snicker:

sorry.

signed,
wys jr.

[BlueFire]

I'd Love to see Harris on this team, that guy is going ot be a beast, as much as it pains me as a Horn to say.

[BlueFire]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart


Lowest blow ever. :mad:

*grin* Your post mentions both blow and George W Bush

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by BlueFire
I'd Love to see Harris on this team, that guy is going ot be a beast, as much as it pains me as a Horn to say.

i got accepted into Texas, but decided to move go w/ virginia tech. i graduated in dallas, so alot of my friends went there.

welcome to the zone.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Tatonka
:rofl:

maybe the jills thing is an act?

phil?

:D
You're sick. :cynic: Everyone knows EE slams me out of jealousy

Originally posted by Bulldog
Refer to the post where he calls the person who cuts his hair his hairdresser. That should tell you all you need to know!:banme:

:rolleyes: It's not like I get a perm or anything, but barbers don't generally look even half as good as Holly.

[Bert102176]

no way we take Harris, and Losmann won't be there in round 2

[Nighthawk]

The Bills will not take Harris over a WR or defensive end in the 1st...and who says that you guys are experts?

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Nighthawk
The Bills will not take Harris over a WR or defensive end in the 1st...and who says that you guys are experts?

Damn, what's left to take?

[Nighthawk]

If Will Smith is there, I believe they will go with him. I don't think a QB will be there, but if so, that would be my guess. See, I don't claim to be an expert, just an interested fan. If there is a team who is HOT for Harris, I see the Bills trading down.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Bmax
the giants could take roy with pick 4 .....listening to ernie yesterday on mike and the mad dog ...he said he love gallery and manning .. but if he had to he would stay put and consider roy....

I think they may have to ..san diego wants a ton....of comp for the pick.. I am not thrilled with tommie harris ...We need guys on the edge....Not middle pluggers..plus harris is only 295...I was more impressed with lsu nt chad lavalis (sp)....

Harris i feel will be gone any way to either atlanta or houston...


You guys-(draft experts) have selling evans short all post season...the guy can play and will be a star the bills didn't bring him in for nothing.......Speed kills....

Oh by the way freel free to rip on my mock when it goes up tomorrow

Bmax

First- Oklahoma rotated their DL line in and out all the time- similar to Jimmy Johnson and the Super Bowl Cowboys. they rotated in 7 guys all the time. Keep the legs fresh. Sam Adams in his best seasons had what, 20-30 tackles all season?

Harris is versatile, and if used properly, can play DE or DT. He's one of the fastest DL in this draft (Will Smith is by far the fastest) so he can play DE at first then bulk up and move inside when Adams/Williams move on.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Nighthawk
The Bills will not take Harris over a WR or defensive end in the 1st...and who says that you guys are experts?

What's you're deal?

[STAMPY]

you're= you are :snicker:

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Nighthawk
If Will Smith is there, I believe they will go with him. I don't think a QB will be there, but if so, that would be my guess. See, I don't claim to be an expert, just an interested fan. If there is a team who is HOT for Harris, I see the Bills trading down.

NYG-QB Manning
OAK-OT Gallery
ARZ-WR Fitzy
SD-QB Rivers
WAS-FS Taylor
DET-RB Jackson
PIT-QB Rothlesiburger
ATL-WR Roy. Williams
JAX-TE Winslow
HOU-DE Smith
CLE-CB Hall
NYJ-WR Reg. Williams


Well, if you want Rashaun Woods or Losman at 13 and pass on two great DL, then that's your choice.

All 3 top WR's are gone, Will Smith is a Texan. With the list above selected- who is your pick? The Bills can't go wrong with Udeze or Harris- both will be valuable long term contributors. it's just that
Harris is rated higher (not by a lot) on most people's boards than Udeze, He's flexible enough to play 2 positions instead of one- and the Bills are better situated in the long run at DE with thte youth they have.

Either pick is a good one- we chose Harris because we felt it's a slightly better choice.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by BuffaloBillsSTAMPEDE
you're= you are :snicker:

:peace:

[Dozerdog]

BTW "Experts"


You got to realize our (your) opinions will be shredded and ask to be justified. So please don't jump ugly with the dissenters.


In this draft- the Bills could end up with any number of guys (10 maybe?) in Round 1 and whomever they pick, 2/3rds won't like it.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Nighthawk
The Bills will not take Harris over a WR or defensive end in the 1st...and who says that you guys are experts?

can you give me some rational behind your statement? and the people that run the site said we are experts.. doesnt mean we are right.. just means that we MAY have more knowledge about certain things.. specifically the draft and college players.


Originally posted by Nighthawk
If Will Smith is there, I believe they will go with him. I don't think a QB will be there, but if so, that would be my guess. See, I don't claim to be an expert, just an interested fan. If there is a team who is HOT for Harris, I see the Bills trading down.

again.. what makes you think that we take will smith? can you provide me with a link of any sort from anyone that works with the bills that states they are interested in taking another DE that early? because i can provide you with a link that has donahoe raving about kelsay and talking about how much he likes denny, and i can also provide you with a link to jerry gray saying that kelsay is going to make a big impact this year and has improved dramatically.


Originally posted by Dozerdog
Harris is versatile, and if used properly, can play DE or DT. He's one of the fastest DL in this draft (Will Smith is by far the fastest) so he can play DE at first then bulk up and move inside when Adams/Williams move on.

actually, isac hilton is the fastest, i believe. 4.55 or something around that.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
BTW "Experts"


You got to realize our (your) opinions will be shredded and ask to be justified. So please don't jump ugly with the dissenters.


In this draft- the Bills could end up with any number of guys (10 maybe?) in Round 1 and whomever they pick, 2/3rds won't like it.


hey, i get that.. no problem at all.. i just dont like people using that as a reason to **** on someones pick or idea.. i dont ever seriously say "your not an expert, so your opinion sucks".. and i dont appreciate it when someone says "your opinion sucks, why are you an expert".

just common courtesy.

[Nighthawk]

Tatonka...please! You may have more knowledge, are you kidding me? Just because you can take time to write out who you "believe" the Bills will take, makes you an expert? That's ridiculous. Half of the Mock drafts on this board are about who people "hope" will fall to the Bills and not what actually will, because nobody know that...just like I don't know who the Bills will pick. However, I can have an opinion and guess what...I'm not going to always agree with the "experts", no matter what they say. On the other hand, I'm not going to disagree with them all the time either. You're a fan, not an expert.

[Nighthawk]

Originally posted by Tatonka
can you give me some rational behind your statement? and the people that run the site said we are experts.. doesnt mean we are right.. just means that we MAY have more knowledge about certain things.. specifically the draft and college players.



again.. what makes you think that we take will smith? can you provide me with a link of any sort from anyone that works with the bills that states they are interested in taking another DE that early? because i can provide you with a link that has donahoe raving about kelsay and talking about how much he likes denny, and i can also provide you with a link to jerry gray saying that kelsay is going to make a big impact this year and has improved dramatically.



actually, isac hilton is the fastest, i believe. 4.55 or something around that.


I'll give you link for them stating they'll take Smith, if you give me a link stating that they'll take Harris. Also, show me a link that was posted before last years draft where they said that would take McGahee? You see my point...nobody's an expert...especially me, but it's cool to have an opinion, just don't try to force feed it to me!

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Nighthawk
I'll give you link for them stating they'll take Smith, if you give me a link stating that they'll take Harris. Also, show me a link that was posted before last years draft where they said that would take McGahee? You see my point...nobody's an expert...especially me, but it's cool to have an opinion, just don't try to force feed it to me!

Why are you being an ass?

[Nighthawk]

Who's being an ass? Just because I don't agree with you're opinions that makes me an ass? Like I stated before, I respect your opinions, but I don't necessarily agree with them.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Nighthawk
Who's being an ass? Just because I don't agree with you're opinions that makes me an ass? Like I stated before, I respect your opinions, but I don't necessarily agree with them.


Who's force feeding you? You can beleive what you want and think what you want.

[Nighthawk]

Being called an ass for disagreeing with you, I think, would constitute trying to be force fed an opinion...wouldn't you agree?

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Nighthawk
Being called an ass for disagreeing with you, I think, would constitute trying to be force fed an opinion...wouldn't you agree?


You said that before my statement.

[Nighthawk]

Huh?

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Nighthawk
I'll give you link for them stating they'll take Smith, if you give me a link stating that they'll take Harris. Also, show me a link that was posted before last years draft where they said that would take McGahee? You see my point...nobody's an expert...especially me, but it's cool to have an opinion, just don't try to force feed it to me!


Originally posted by Nighthawk
Huh?

[Nighthawk]

I was using your statement, which happened to come after what I said, as an example. I see that kind of treatment on this board all the time and it's ridiculous. People have different opinions and one person's "opinions" don't make them an expert...that's all I'm saying...nothing more, nothing less.

[The Spaz]

:up:

[chernobylwraiths]

Damn guys, relax. Of course they are just their opinions, but a group of guys apparently got together and put together this little mock. Of course a lot of their picks will be wrong. They did it for the hell of it and you can agree with it or disagree.

Lastly, they are the closest thing to "experts" this board has. Now you can disagree with that as well. John Clayton is supposed to be a good reporter for ESPN and I think he is full of crap more than he isn't. Plus, Mel Kiper who is supposedly one of the biggest "Experts" on the NFL draft, is full of crap to many people as well. Just relax.

[Nighthawk]

Now let's pray the Bills get somebody good on Saturday...I can't wait!

[Nighthawk]

Originally posted by chernobylwraiths
Damn guys, relax. Of course they are just their opinions, but a group of guys apparently got together and put together this little mock. Of course a lot of their picks will be wrong. They did it for the hell of it and you can agree with it or disagree.

Lastly, they are the closest thing to "experts" this board has. Now you can disagree with that as well. John Clayton is supposed to be a good reporter for ESPN and I think he is full of crap more than he isn't. Plus, Mel Kiper who is supposedly one of the biggest "Experts" on the NFL draft, is full of crap to many people as well. Just relax.

We're relaxed...just having a debate.

[SoCalBillsFan]

Originally posted by Tatonka



hey, i get that.. no problem at all.. i just dont like people using that as a reason to **** on someones pick or idea.. i dont ever seriously say "your not an expert, so your opinion sucks".. and i dont appreciate it when someone says "your opinion sucks, why are you an expert".

just common courtesy.

Tatonka, I don't think your opinion sucks at all. I think it's probably pretty good. I was just joking around at the "expert" thing, it's funny that we have a lot of self proclaimed "experts" around here, and I was just poking a little fun. That being said, I know you, draftboy, dozer, etc. have done more research than me, and probably have good reasons for your opinions. I think its cool you guys did this two round mock, and I think its pretty good for the most part. So your opinion doesn't suck. cool?

[elltrain22]

I like it. I like the choices ( especially Harris ), and I really think that that scenario has a very good possibility. I like the Losman pick also, I think he can be a good player, if put in the right system.

Here is a question: If Tommie Harris is drafted, does he play DT, and sit behind Adams & Williams, or does he move over to DE, and compete for that starting job???

[Nighthawk]

IF Harris is drafted by the Bills, I believe that they will try to move him to DE because of his versatility. He is a really good athlete and may be able to make the move.

[Ingtar33]

oh boy...

Well, let me see. This "mock" draft was the culmination of 2 hours and 5 people's minds, thoughts and discussion. We threw out names then discussed why a team would take who, then voted. The player who had the most votes was that team's pick. We dealt with trades the same way.

This mock draft looks pretty good, from an insider's point of view. And while you might think for some strange reason we conspired to get Harris to Buffalo, i can assure you, this was not the way we wanted it to go. We tried several times to work out reasonable trades to move Buffalo up to take Big Ben, in the end we decided Pitt would pay more than buffalo.

Will Smith went to Houston, largely due to the fact he's been worked out heavy by the 3-4 teams as a Sam backer, and has accounted himself rather well in the role.

This Mock is admittedly flawed. A few players went to teams they probably shouldn't have. But then this one worked out amazingly "real". We had runs, irrationality, and odd balls slip high, while accomplish players fell too low. Just like the real draft.

Now, if you'd like to discuss some issues in this draft im welcome to hear it, maybe talk about players you've never heard of... or surprises. I'll be around a bit tonight.

BTW: i never called myself an expert ;) I'm just a dumb ass ex-jock, who someone somewhere figured i might have a clue about evaluating talent. Personally i figure this just means i'm bright enough know ive got a lot to learn.

[Nighthawk]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
oh boy...

Well, let me see. This "mock" draft was the culmination of 2 hours and 5 people's minds, thoughts and discussion. We threw out names then discussed why a team would take who, then voted. The player who had the most votes was that team's pick. We dealt with trades the same way.

This mock draft looks pretty good, from an insider's point of view. And while you might think for some strange reason we conspired to get Harris to Buffalo, i can assure you, this was not the way we wanted it to go. We tried several times to work out reasonable trades to move Buffalo up to take Big Ben, in the end we decided Pitt would pay more than buffalo.

Will Smith went to Houston, largely due to the fact he's been worked out heavy by the 3-4 teams as a Sam backer, and has accounted himself rather well in the role.

This Mock is admittedly flawed. A few players went to teams they probably shouldn't have. But then this one worked out amazingly "real". We had runs, irrationality, and odd balls slip high, while accomplish players fell too low. Just like the real draft.

Now, if you'd like to discuss some issues in this draft im welcome to hear it, maybe talk about players you've never heard of... or surprises. I'll be around a bit tonight.

BTW: i never called myself an expert ;) I'm just a dumb ass ex-jock, who someone somewhere figured i might have a clue about evaluating talent. Personally i figure this just means i'm bright enough know ive got a lot to learn.

Very well stated. Hey, it could happen, but you never really know. Again, compliments on your rebuttal...very well thought out.

[Ingtar33]

what no questions? The draft is less than 3 days away... im sure something with that mock must jump out at you fellas.


A player you're not familiar with, maybe a player falling out of the top 2 rounds, or one in them.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Nighthawk
The Bills will not take Harris over a WR or defensive end in the 1st...and who says that you guys are experts?

Hey Im all for a differing opinion but the ending comment goes cross that line and I think thats why you got a rise out of T. Yea we so-called experts and yea we expect to get greif over it with everything we write its kinda like something that goes with the job. If you dont wanna get into a pissing contest next time try and be a little bit more informative about your response not just the "Stupid pick, you guys sucks" comment. Id love to hear what each and everyone of you thinks of the draft and would openly discuss it on pm, in a thread, or on AIM (melder1211). Im more than willing to give you my opinion if you wanna hear it.

As for Harris. The Bills have spent the past 3 years picking DE after DE. The true prospects lie in the later rounds IMO. Harris is a special player both DE and DT. At 295 hes big enough to hang in the middle and fast enough to rush the edge. This allows us to run many stunts with him in there and gives us more faith to rotate in and out Sam and Pat. I think both Harris will be there at 13 and that he will be Buffalo's pick. I cant prove it with a link. But knowing Buffalo's defensive style, drafting tradition, and the way Harris plays hes is a guy I really like. Hope that helps into some insight on why i think he fits in B-Lo

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
what no questions? The draft is less than 3 days away... im sure something with that mock must jump out at you fellas.


A player you're not familiar with, maybe a player falling out of the top 2 rounds, or one in them.

Lots of CBs falling there, will that be a trend come draft day?

With Archie Mannings idiotic comments will it cause SD's price to fall??

[Ingtar33]

heh... good questions.

This year im not a fan (nor most of the FO im with) of the CBs in this draft. They're normal for most years, in an abnormally talented draft.

Think of it this way.

CB/DB/OG/OC/TE/FB are often times the most underpaid position on the team short of kickers. This is largely because most folks don't veiw them as important. The Draft reflects this fact, as those players, no mater how good they are, they fall.

The times you get an exception to this "trend" is when either... A) a single player is truly exceptional, once a decade type... B) the draft is weak.

In weak drafts CBs and the like, FBs, kickers, whatever, tend to be taken higher than you'd normally see, mostly due to the fact there is not much to look at elsewhere. In Deep drafts, no mater how good they are, they tend to fall and keep falling. This draft has a single exemplary DB, in the form of Sean Taylor. After that they are mostly a "normal" draft class for talent. When you consider how deep this draft is, you'll see them fall this year.

About the only saving grace for them is that the DE draft is mediocre this year. Most teams with DB problems tend to go DE to fix it, not DB. This year's weak DE crop will force them to look DB

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
heh... good questions.

This year im not a fan (nor most of the FO im with) of the CBs in this draft. They're normal for most years, in an abnormally talented draft.

Think of it this way.

CB/DB/OG/OC/TE/FB are often times the most underpaid position on the team short of kickers. This is largely because most folks don't veiw them as important. The Draft reflects this fact, as those players, no mater how good they are, they fall.

The times you get an exception to this "trend" is when either... A) a single player is truly exceptional, once a decade type... B) the draft is weak.

In weak drafts CBs and the like, FBs, kickers, whatever, tend to be taken higher than you'd normally see, mostly due to the fact there is not much to look at elsewhere. In Deep drafts, no mater how good they are, they tend to fall and keep falling. This draft has a single exemplary DB, in the form of Sean Taylor. After that they are mostly a "normal" draft class for talent. When you consider how deep this draft is, you'll see them fall this year.

About the only saving grace for them is that the DE draft is mediocre this year. Most teams with DB problems tend to go DE to fix it, not DB. This year's weak DE crop will force them to look DB

Nice explanation and my other question?? Nobody else is girlling you im gonna take my shots when I can.

[DraftBoy]

Also:

Rate your top 10 QBs based on skill and intangibles

Who do you think the Bills will pick at QB? and who will be the best fit?

[Ingtar33]

ah... sorry bud... your guess is likely as good (or maybe better) than mine.

[Ingtar33]

hmm... QBs I don't normally rate QBs 1-10, normally its by "pick value"


But... here's a shot.

surefire 1st round talent
1) Big Ben

iffy 1st round talent
2) Eli Manning

solid 2nd round talent
3) Rivers
4) Schaub
5) Harris
6) Losman

3rd through 7th round talent
7) Smoker
8) Clausen
9) Van Pelt
10) Pickett

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Nighthawk
Tatonka...please! You may have more knowledge, are you kidding me? Just because you can take time to write out who you "believe" the Bills will take, makes you an expert? That's ridiculous. You're a fan, not an expert.

the above statement is just rude. period. i get it. you dont agree. fine by me. i could care less really. but the people that run the site gave us the title of expert because we do have more knowledge about the draft and college players than alot of people on the site. more than you? i dont know. all i know about you is that you disagree with the pick and are rude in doing so. and i cant say i really appreciate the way you go about it..


Originally posted by Nighthawk
just don't try to force feed it to me!

i havent force fed a damn thing to you.. i just commented on the mock draft we did last night. if you dont like it, fine. you commented on it. i tried to respond as to why we picked that way, as did several other people. you still disagree. good for you. :idunno:


Originally posted by Nighthawk
Being called an ass for disagreeing with you, I think, would constitute trying to be force fed an opinion...wouldn't you agree?

you made the comments that you were being forcefed an opinion and called an ass for saying that, because it is incorrect, no one is forcing any opinion on you.. so no.. i dont agree.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka


the above statement is just rude. period. i get it. you dont agree. fine by me. i could care less really. but the people that run the site gave us the title of expert because we do have more knowledge about the draft and college players than alot of people on the site. more than you? i dont know. all i know about you is that you disagree with the pick and are rude in doing so. and i cant say i really appreciate the way you go about it..



i havent force fed a damn thing to you.. i just commented on the mock draft we did last night. if you dont like it, fine. you commented on it. i tried to respond as to why we picked that way, as did several other people. you still disagree. good for you. :idunno:



you made the comments that you were being forcefed an opinion and called an ass for saying that, because it is incorrect, no one is forcing any opinion on you.. so no.. i dont agree.


T it isnt worth the time to argue with it. Remeber what we said last night about 1/2 the board??

[Ingtar33]

BTW:

T, is that a DMB song? In your sig... let me think... from Under the Table and Dreaming... put that album in and relax bro

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by SoCalBillsFan
Tatonka, I don't think your opinion sucks at all. I think it's probably pretty good. I was just joking around at the "expert" thing, it's funny that we have a lot of self proclaimed "experts" around here, and I was just poking a little fun. That being said, I know you, draftboy, dozer, etc. have done more research than me, and probably have good reasons for your opinions. I think its cool you guys did this two round mock, and I think its pretty good for the most part. So your opinion doesn't suck. cool?

no problem.. tough to tell sometimes when people are trying to be rude or just kidding around. thanks bud.


Originally posted by Ingtar33
BTW: i never called myself an expert ;) I'm just a dumb ass ex-jock, who someone somewhere figured i might have a clue about evaluating talent. Personally i figure this just means i'm bright enough know ive got a lot to learn.

i am gonna go out on a limb here.. but the fact that an nfl team is paying you to evaluate players kinda makes you an expert in my book. ;)


Originally posted by Ingtar33
what no questions? The draft is less than 3 days away... im sure something with that mock must jump out at you fellas.


yeah.. where is your cool draft guide like you did last year.. with the pretty pictures? :tongue:


Originally posted by DraftBoy
Lots of CBs falling there, will that be a trend come draft day?

With Archie Mannings idiotic comments will it cause SD's price to fall??

what comments did archie make?

[Ingtar33]

Heh... BTW: back on topic, anyone else have any questions?

[Ingtar33]

heh... the draft guide... yes... um... well... :couch: life happened... but its almost done i swear! (think Friday)

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
heh... the draft guide... yes... um... well... :couch: life happened... but its almost done i swear! (think Friday)

It better be!:2guns: :beers:

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka

what comments did archie make?

Archie told Eli's agent to tell SD (which he did) not to draft Eli and that he would prefer NYG to pick him

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
T it isnt worth the time to argue with it. Remeber what we said last night about 1/2 the board??

i hear ya. i am not really trying to argue though.. i was simply explaining my position.. and that i thought it was rude. no biggie. i am not bent out of shape over it. i am just kinda surprised at the heat we took today.. alot of the "expert? pfffff" type comments.. we are all obviously here for fun, but i take this stuff pretty seriously, and i put in hours upon hours of time reading and watching and reading and watching over the coarse of an entire year for the draft alone. so i take it a little personal, u know? :D

nevermind.. u do know.


Originally posted by Ingtar33
BTW:

T, is that a DMB song? In your sig... let me think... from Under the Table and Dreaming... put that album in and relax bro

yeah.. it is rhyme and reason, by dmb.. one of the best song writers ever, imho.

and i am ok.. lol.. plenty relaxed.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
hmm... QBs I don't normally rate QBs 1-10, normally its by "pick value"


But... here's a shot.

surefire 1st round talent
1) Big Ben

iffy 1st round talent
2) Eli Manning

solid 2nd round talent
3) Rivers
4) Schaub
5) Harris
6) Losman

3rd through 7th round talent
7) Smoker
8) Clausen
9) Van Pelt
10) Pickett

wow.. harris that high huh?

any opinion on rutherford? there was rumor around here that TD seems to like him. he was solid in games i saw this year (4 total) but he was throwing to fitz.. lol.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
Archie told Eli's agent to tell SD (which he did) not to draft Eli and that he would prefer NYG to pick him

wow.. maybe they stay and definately go gallery though now.

[Tatonka]

i really want to like josh harris.. you look at his size and numbers.. and i love what i see.. but when i watch him play.. i just dont get that "he's got it" feeling.. you know?

[Ingtar33]

well, the guys i put as round 2 talent... are guys that fit into 1 of 2 categories.

1) they have all the physical tools to not just play in the NFL but dominate

2) they have all the smarts, awareness or game management skills to step into an NFL huddle and start right away if it wasn't for questions with their physical abilities.

Rivers falls into the second group, guys like Losman and Harris in the first.

The rest, well i just nabbed my favorites of the guys not in the top groups. Per game performance guys like Pickett and Clausen should be rated higher than Smoker and Van Pelt, however I had to acknowledge their physical limitations.

[SoCalBillsFan]

Ing, not sure if you posted elswhere, but what are your thoughts on MIke Williams? He is one guy where there seems to be a big difference in people's opinions. Of course I'm biased, but what do you think of him?

[Ingtar33]

I love what Mike Williams brings to the football field. If he was in the draft id have him a close second to Fitz, as he just seems to have all the tools.

The trick is M. Williams is a questionable human being where as Fitz is not. Throw in the fact that guys like Roy Williams did it longer and he falls comfortably between Fitz and Roy, though much closer to Roy than most think.

Mike reminds me most of Owens.
Roy reminds me of Moss.
Fitz of Jerry Rice.

Of course this is what they look like, not what they might turn out to be. Both Mike and Roy have more upward physical potential than Fitz. But who knows if their mentality will support this?

[SoCalBillsFan]

Good analysis, I'll buy that. I think people are freaking out over Mike's 40 time not being sub 4.5, but man can he play. Definately is a bit immature though...

Ing, about fitz...do you think he will be a top 5 reciever eventually? It seems to me that he has amazing body control and hands, he catches everything in traffic. But it also seems he is never WIDE OPEN, if that makes sense. And he isn't that impressive after the catch. I'm not saying he shouldnt be the first receiver taken, but I don't think he is a lock for a top 5 receiver either. what do you think?

[Ingtar33]

you're not far off...


When eval WR you want to look at body position, and separation. Fitz seems to have little difficulty getting separation, but serious difficulty getting space. A simple question of speed vs quickness.

Fitz has quickness in spades, but little speed. That said, Jerry Rice/Andre Reed are much the same player.

[STAMPY]

hey man, what do u think of JP Losman, i love this kids athlertic ability. He can scramble or throw it 95 mph fastball. And has the cocky confident attitude. Would u draft him if your buffalo in round 1 in a trade down? cause gb might grab him

[STAMPY]

Also would you trade travis henry? i wouldn't he's a gamer

[Ingtar33]

Losman has the physical tools... but i dislike his game smarts.

Hes a 6th round QB's brain in a 1st round QBs body.

T. Henry is only a gamer in most fan's minds because he played last year on a broken leg. I've broke that bone... it hurts like sin, but it really doesn't keep you from running or whatever you want to do.

Yes, if it meant we'd get Big Ben, yeah... i'd trade him in a NY minute.

[STAMPY]

What do you think about Bills selecting Shane Andrews at 13? Big body that can help the line? I know he's not Gallery, But what do you think of him> Would he be an asset, a good fit, starter possibly? I want Mike Williams if he's allowed back in, Udeze or Andrews or move up to grab winslow or ben... or move Down and grab JP

[Ingtar33]

Shane Andrews, really would make a good Tackle. The trick with the Bills is everyone on our line would make a good Tackle. Tackles tend to be finesse blockers, not made for the inside of the line. As a result, the inside of our line sucks.

I think if you are going for an O-lineman in round one, you’ve got to take a stab at more of a pure guard... someone like Carey. Yes 13 normally is high for a guard, but Carey is good enough that this would not be a reach. Besides, once Gallery is off the board Carey is really the highest rated O-lineman left.

[Bulldog]

Ing, I want to know what the general concensus is about a couple of Syracuse guys: Morant and Louis Gaschlin. What do you think of these two and where should they go in the draft? Also, could you comment on Rutherford.

[EDS]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
Heh... BTW: back on topic, anyone else have any questions?


You said earlier that Corner backs are not generally valued by teams. Isn't just the opposite true - which is why there is always a run on corners in the first round. All the talking heads on ESPN and other sporting news TV/internet sites talk about the importance of a good corner. To me, having good corners can make a defense by allowing for an aggressive pass rush, etc.

The Bills have spent a ton of first round picks on corners since the early 1990's (Jones, Williams, Smith, Burris, Winfield, Clements) as an example.

[Ingtar33]

the bills tend to be the exception to the rule...

Im not saying teams don't draft corners, just they will often times go 5 to 10 picks lower than their talent indicates they should.

In weak years with a strong CB draft you'll see an early round run, but this year's crop is weak at best at CB, and this is such a deep draft elsewhere that they'll just keep falling.

[BlueFire]

Originally posted by Tatonka


i got accepted into Texas, but decided to move go w/ virginia tech. i graduated in dallas, so alot of my friends went there.

welcome to the zone.

Sucks to be you. :chuckle:

Thanks for the welcome

[Nighthawk]

Ing, I totally agree with you on the Henry issue. I've got to admit, I like how your state your opinion...it must be that you're a GI guy! :)

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka


i hear ya. i am not really trying to argue though.. i was simply explaining my position.. and that i thought it was rude. no biggie. i am not bent out of shape over it. i am just kinda surprised at the heat we took today.. alot of the "expert? pfffff" type comments.. we are all obviously here for fun, but i take this stuff pretty seriously, and i put in hours upon hours of time reading and watching and reading and watching over the coarse of an entire year for the draft alone. so i take it a little personal, u know? :D

nevermind.. u do know.



I feel ya man, 100%. Hey at least your work week and my school week is over!! UNDER 48 HOURS AND COUNTING!!!!