This is why you dont take a WR in the 1st!

[Tatonka]

guys like this...

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/7267363

i know alot of you want the pretty skill position pick.. but if our offensive line isnt drastically improved, drew will not have time to get the ball out of his hands.. again.

guys.. this is the deepest WR draft in years.. do you realize that a guy like colbert should be in the first round? he will probably go in the early third. jenkins would be a high first in another draft. woods would be a high first rounder.. it looks like evans has moved himself up to the mid first round (which is too high).

Dont get me wrong.. i can understand drooling over a guy like Roy williams.. or Fitz.. i can maybe even understand Mike williams.. but reggie williams? Lee Evans? with number 13?? puleeeze.

you all know as well as i do.. FOOTBALL STARTS IN THE TRENCHES!!!.. teams with strong lines win games and go to the playoffs.. carolina was a perfect example.. one really good wr.. a half decent qb.. but 2 good rbs.. and two great great lines..

how can you disagree with that time proven formula for success?

[Tatonka]

for my money.. this is my dream right now.

trade down w/ philly. for their 1st, 2nd and 4th next year.

1st pick - carey (G)
2nd pick - losman (QB)
2nd 2nd pick - grove (C)
3rd pick - lavalais (DT)
3rd 3rd pick (trade next years 2nd) - colbert (WR)
4th pick - peters (TE)
5th pick - karney (FB)
7th pick - van pelt (QB)
7th pick - any kicker


that draft right there would make us a championship team much sooner rather than later. that is one serious smash mouth draft that would be tough to beat.

[Ebenezer]

Originally posted by Tatonka
for my money.. this is my dream right now.

trade down w/ philly. for their 1st, 2nd and 4th.

1st pick - carey (G)
2nd pick - losman (QB)
2nd 2nd pick - grove (C)
3rd pick - lavalais (DT)
3rd 3rd pick (trade next years 2nd) - colbert (WR)
4th pick - peters (TE)
5th pick - karney (FB)
7th pick - van pelt (QB)
7th pick - any kicker


that draft right there would make us a championship team much sooner rather than later. that is one serious smash mouth draft that would be tough to beat.

who are your DEs next year?

[BuffaloRanger]

Dude, you know I'd sound off with my support on that. The WRs are deep in this draft, but many GMs (parcells - I hate him) consider this a very weak O-line draft. Let's get one of the studs early.

Hell, Carey OR Grove would be such an improvement. I really hope TD doesn't try to look for sleepers in the late rounds. GIVE MCNALLY SOME BEEF!!

Jennings probably won't be back next year. LTs aren't cheap. Big Mike could step up and move to LT in 2005. That will be another hole to fill. Build for the future.

[Jan Reimers]

I would love this draft. It would fix most of our offensive problems, which is what I think needs to be done - 2 stud O linemen, a great QB of the future, a mammoth TE, a big FB, and a pretty good WR.

While I'm not totally sold on Colbert, I would sign up for this draft in its entirety right now.

[Jan Reimers]

Originally posted by Ebenezer
who are your DEs next year?

Schobel and Kelsay.

[ryjam282]

I think if one of the QB's is gone, then we absolutely have to go with Vernon Carey in the first, trading down I mean and taking a QB later. I have watched Carey for some time now here in S Florida and he is absolutely a stud. Makes people look like little children sometimes.

Although, lately I have been getting this sinking feeling that TD may try and land Kurt Warner after June 1st since it looks like Slash will not be a Bill.

[BuffaloRanger]

I love Peters and Karney there too. If they are there I'd hope TD doesn't disappoint us.

The Bills can't get by with just an average O-line. I want some nasty lineman that can dominate. Right now there is no competition at Center. And who's the back-up? Competition is a good thing.

[DraftBoy]

Karney in the 5th is too high id rather have him in the 6th.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Ebenezer
who are your DEs next year?

i am willing to give kelsay another year.. and if need be, we can get a starting DE in FA next year if he doesnt work out.. OR go DE in the first round of 2005.. a good rookie DE could potentially come in and start right away.

both may be necessary if we lose schobel..

but adding lavalais would give us some quality depth, and hopefully edwards will play well and provide us for some hope at DT after pat and sam are gone.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
Karney in the 5th is too high id rather have him in the 6th.

well.. we dont have a 6th.. that is why you pick him there.. and he could even go as early as the 4th..

i am actually more sure than any other pick in the draft that we will end up with karney... i dont know why.

[ryjam282]

I sure hope so. That guy is a mack truck

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
well.. we dont have a 6th.. that is why you pick him there.. and he could even go as early as the 4th..

i am actually more sure than any other pick in the draft that we will end up with karney... i dont know why.

Hell I would take Karney in the 4th and be happy.:up:

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka


well.. we dont have a 6th.. that is why you pick him there.. and he could even go as early as the 4th..

i am actually more sure than any other pick in the draft that we will end up with karney... i dont know why.

God I hope not

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
God I hope not

? why is that? what other guy could you get that is tops at his position in the 5th round? a kicker?

[The Spaz]

I love Peters but we should get another one at least in free agency after Campbell we have Neufeld and Trafford:puke:

[The Spaz]

I love Peters but we should get another one at least in free agency after Campbell we have Neufeld and Trafford:puke:

[The Spaz]

WTF?:dizzy:

[Tatonka]

nuefield is not a bad 3rd string te.. but if someone becomes available in after june 1st.. that is fine.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka
for my money.. this is my dream right now.

trade down w/ philly. for their 1st, 2nd and 4th.

1st pick - carey (G)
2nd pick - losman (QB)
2nd 2nd pick - grove (C)
3rd pick - lavalais (DT)
3rd 3rd pick (trade next years 2nd) - colbert (WR)
4th pick - peters (TE)
5th pick - karney (FB)
7th pick - van pelt (QB)
7th pick - any kicker


that draft right there would make us a championship team much sooner rather than later. that is one serious smash mouth draft that would be tough to beat.

Im gonna work with your scenario and do my own dream mock:
1st-OG Smiley-Carey is gone by now
2nd-QB Losman
2nd-OC Grove
3rd-DT Lavalais
3rd-TE Wilson
4th-WR Morant
5th-DE Harriot
7th-CB Millhouse
7th-LB D. Pope


there you go that draft right there immediately helps this team.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka


? why is that? what other guy could you get that is tops at his position in the 5th round? a kicker?

We dont need a FB, expecially one in rd 5. We have Shelton and hell there are plenty in FA to sign also.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by DraftBoy


Im gonna work with your scenario and do my own dream mock:
1st-OG Smiley-Carey is gone by now
2nd-QB Losman
2nd-OC Grove
3rd-DT Lavalais
3rd-TE Wilson
4th-WR Morant
5th-DE Harriot
7th-CB Millhouse
7th-LB D. Pope


there you go that draft right there immediately helps this team.

I like it except the Wilson pick I think he's too small to be a good TE.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
Im gonna work with your scenario and do my own dream mock:
1st-OG Smiley-Carey is gone by now
2nd-QB Losman
2nd-OC Grove
3rd-DT Lavalais
3rd-TE Wilson
4th-WR Morant
5th-DE Harriot
7th-CB Millhouse
7th-LB D. Pope


there you go that draft right there immediately helps this team.

i wouldnt complain about that either. all solid picks.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
We dont need a FB, expecially one in rd 5. We have Shelton and hell there are plenty in FA to sign also.

i disagree completely.. karney has the ability to be a pro bowl fb.. a crushing blocker and a capable receiver. and TD has stated that we will add a FB. i also remember reading an article that said they were highly impressed after karney's pro day workout. i am just sure that he will be a pick of ours. why are you so down on him?

[The Spaz]

Would love to have Karney, that blocking beast on our team!:up:

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka


i disagree completely.. karney has the ability to be a pro bowl fb.. a crushing blocker and a capable receiver. and TD has stated that we will add a FB. i also remember reading an article that said they were highly impressed after karney's pro day workout. i am just sure that he will be a pick of ours. why are you so down on him?

Bc hes not need a pick we have alread added a FB in Shelton who whether you guys wanna admit it or not is a starting claiber FB who can block and catch the ball aside from that fact their will probably be 3 maybe 4 FB's taken in the entire draft. A player like FB Travis Wilson from Kansas may not even be drafted due to off the field problems. FB is not one our concern areas and I see no need to waste a 5th round pick on it. Id burn a 7th rounder on somebody but not a 5th.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
Bc hes not need a pick we have alread added a FB in Shelton who whether you guys wanna admit it or not is a starting claiber FB who can block and catch the ball aside from that fact their will probably be 3 maybe 4 FB's taken in the entire draft. A player like FB Travis Wilson from Kansas may not even be drafted due to off the field problems. FB is not one our concern areas and I see no need to waste a 5th round pick on it. Id burn a 7th rounder on somebody but not a 5th.

We did have Crosby and Gash last year we have room for another fb especially seeing he's the best blocking fb in the draft.

[Tatonka]

well, we obviously disagree on the importance of a fb. i think that if you can get a 5th round probowler at fb, then you do.. and that is what i think karney will be.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
well, we obviously disagree on the importance of a fb. i think that if you can get a 5th round probowler at fb, then you do.. and that is what i think karney will be.


I agree!:beers:

[Tatonka]

everyone knows that spaz and me are smarter than draftboy anyways.

:snicker:

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
everyone knows that spaz and me are smarter than draftboy anyways.

:snicker:

:up:

[don137]

I like it but I would be a little nervous about next year if we get that type of draft. I believe Pat Williams, Schoebel, Clements and Jennings are FAs after this year. This draft only addresses the DT position. DE, CB and LT are big money positions and I am not sure we will re-sign more than one of either Schoebel, Clements and Jennings. I think we could re-sign Pat. Hopefully McGee will step up just in case we lose Clements. That would potentially leave two huge holes going into next year.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by don137
I like it but I would be a little nervous about next year if we get that type of draft. I believe Pat Williams, Schoebel, Clements and Jennings are FAs after this year. This draft only addresses the DT position. DE, CB and LT are big money positions and I am not sure we will re-sign more than one of either Schoebel, Clements and Jennings. I think we could re-sign Pat. Hopefully McGee will step up just in case we lose Clements. That would potentially leave two huge holes going into next year.


clements is not a FA. just an fyi.

schobel.. i talked about that earlier in the thread.

pat - lavalais is his replacement.. and i also feel that we may be able to resign him for a relatively cheap price.. he may want to stick around.. who knows.

LT - carey can play T.. more than likely, he would be a RT, and mike williams would be LT.. or even sully or price... i think we will be fine at LT.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka
well, we obviously disagree on the importance of a fb. i think that if you can get a 5th round probowler at fb, then you do.. and that is what i think karney will be.

What makes him a pro-bowl type FB. Everything ive read says hes a good blocker and has shown flashes of decent pass catching ability. The thing with Gash and Alstott always was that they could not only block or pass catch but they did alot more for their team which made them pro-bowlers. Id rather have a proven commodity at FB. Also everything ive read sees Karney as a 6th-7th rounder. Dont see him as anything more.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka
everyone knows that spaz and me are smarter than draftboy anyways.

:snicker:

It'd be Spaz and I there genious


Tatonka :hammeru: Draftboy

T afterwards :injured:

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka



clements is not a FA. just an fyi.

schobel.. i talked about that earlier in the thread.

pat - lavalais is his replacement.. and i also feel that we may be able to resign him for a relatively cheap price.. he may want to stick around.. who knows.

LT - carey can play T.. more than likely, he would be a RT, and mike williams would be LT.. or even sully or price... i think we will be fine at LT.


Agreed

[don137]

Originally posted by Tatonka



clements is not a FA. just an fyi.

schobel.. i talked about that earlier in the thread.

pat - lavalais is his replacement.. and i also feel that we may be able to resign him for a relatively cheap price.. he may want to stick around.. who knows.

LT - carey can play T.. more than likely, he would be a RT, and mike williams would be LT.. or even sully or price... i think we will be fine at LT.

Thanks T...Glad Clements is not a FA next year. I am no where near the expert on the players in the draft as you and a few others. I do think Williams will be moved to LT next year after a year of tutoring under McNally. I do think the potential is there in Sullivan and Price but definately think we do need to draft at least one OL in day one because I think Teague and Jennings will be gone in 2005.

We also do need to draft a DT in the draft because Pat and Sam are in there 30's and will need a breather often and I am not too sold on the current core of DTs in Bannan, Edwards or Sape. I do think Gibson is good but he is also in his 30's.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
What makes him a pro-bowl type FB. Everything ive read says hes a good blocker and has shown flashes of decent pass catching ability. The thing with Gash and Alstott always was that they could not only block or pass catch but they did alot more for their team which made them pro-bowlers. Id rather have a proven commodity at FB. Also everything ive read sees Karney as a 6th-7th rounder. Dont see him as anything more.

gash was a probowler and barely ever caught passes.. i see karney as being better than that, because he is a better receiver.

that is why i say he could be a probowler.. shelton is an average run of the mill fb.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka


gash was a probowler and barely ever caught passes.. i see karney as being better than that, because he is a better receiver.

that is why i say he could be a probowler.. shelton is an average run of the mill fb.

If we are gonna run the system from Gilbride but simplified explain to me where a FB fits in. Neither system utilizes a fullback effecitively a key reason I think Gash was allowed to leave. We dont need a bruising FB for our offense to work. Pittsburg barely ever used a bruiser. Dan Kreider is far from it. In fact they brough in Vernon Hayes as a FB b.c he could carry the ball so well and catch it also. We dont need a blocker we need just a body basically. 5th rd pick on a FB is too eaely 7th or later.

[L.A. Playa]

To me 5 years from now Colbert might be the best reciever from this draft, he really has a great attitude, great hands, great football speed and understands the game I could wait to rd 3 and pick him up if possible

[Ingtar33]

i like your draft T,

Carey and Grove would turn this into one of the best drafts the Bills could have pulled out. Carey would start right away at LG, and Grove just might steal the starting Center job from Teague (god i hope so), furthermore, Grove is a Buffalo type of guy, with a heart two sizes too big for his chest, a mean and dirty streak on the field, a great guy to be around, furthermore his teammates all love him.

The inside of our line would become a strength in an instant, and suddenly, Henry won't have to fight off tacklers 2 yards deep in the backfield. That draft right their is the roadmap to AFC East dominance for years to come.

Of course I think Chad L will be long gone by our pick in the 3rd round.

[Jan Reimers]

I'm glad a lot of us are off the "Let's draft a DT, DE, or CB in the 1st round" bandwagon, and are thinking more in terms of rebuilding the offense.

I just hope the Bills' brass feels the same.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
If we are gonna run the system from Gilbride but simplified explain to me where a FB fits in. Neither system utilizes a fullback effecitively a key reason I think Gash was allowed to leave. We dont need a bruising FB for our offense to work. Pittsburg barely ever used a bruiser. Dan Kreider is far from it. In fact they brough in Vernon Hayes as a FB b.c he could carry the ball so well and catch it also. We dont need a blocker we need just a body basically. 5th rd pick on a FB is too eaely 7th or later.

i was under the impression that we are not running gilbrides offense.. we are running clements offense.. and that will feature plenty of 2 back sets.. some with a FB and some with WM and TH.

:idunno:

if they are not going to do that.. then your right.


Originally posted by pmacla
To me 5 years from now Colbert might be the best reciever from this draft, he really has a great attitude, great hands, great football speed and understands the game I could wait to rd 3 and pick him up if possible

his attitude is what i really like. he was completely ok with not being in the limelight w/ mike williams, while quietly being a great receiver.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
i like your draft T,

Of course I think Chad L will be long gone by our pick in the 3rd round.

thanks, bud..

about chad L.. i think he is dropping because his workout was horrible and he was so weak.. only 17 reps.. that is NOT good for a DT.. he probably wont make much of a splash this year.. but rusty jones can fix that.. he has all the ability of a top flight dt imho.

i also think his drop will work in conjunction with alot of other DTs moving up .. like sopagoa and igor O. and washington, tubbs, starks, ect.. there are alot of guys in front of him, hopefully, on other teams boards..

but you may be right..

it is my draft though.. so he makes it to the 3rd!

:D

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by Tatonka
thanks, bud..

about chad L.. i think he is dropping because his workout was horrible and he was so weak.. only 17 reps.. that is NOT good for a DT.. he probably wont make much of a splash this year.. but rusty jones can fix that.. he has all the ability of a top flight dt imho.

i also think his drop will work in conjunction with alot of other DTs moving up .. like sopagoa and igor O. and washington, tubbs, starks, ect.. there are alot of guys in front of him, hopefully, on other teams boards..

but you may be right..

it is my draft though.. so he makes it to the 3rd!

:D


I agree with the new guy. You don't know jack cheese. :snicker:

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
I agree with the new guy. You don't know jack cheese. :snicker:

:rofl:

i got your jack cheese..

dont be mad at me because they didnt invite you to the "expert mock"

:tongue: :D

[EDS]

Two offensive lineman early in the draft is overkill. McNally coached the giants o-line to the superbowl with less talent than the Bills currently have on their roster. I wouldn't complain necessarily but even with high draft picks there are no guarantees. Big Mike Williams was a very high pick, and while it is still too early to label him, he has not lived up to that lofty draft status. Grove and Carey will be rookies, so there is no guarantee they will be an upgrade over Sullivan and Teague.

A few years ago everyone was begging for that tackle from Florida and the Bills go ahead and trade down for Clements. Turns out great move because that tackle (can't remember his name but drafted by Tampa - or was it guard Cosey Coleman from Tenn.?) is average at best and Clements and Henry are budding stars.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Tatonka


i was under the impression that we are not running gilbrides offense.. we are running clements offense.. and that will feature plenty of 2 back sets.. some with a FB and some with WM and TH.

:idunno:

if they are not going to do that.. then your right.


As I understand it its just Gilbride system just simplified for the QB sake. Also EE it was my call on who to invite. I set up the whole experts draft nobody knew except the 5 of us and Stampede bc I talk to him online.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by EDS
Two offensive lineman early in the draft is overkill. McNally coached the giants o-line to the superbowl with less talent than the Bills currently have on their roster. I wouldn't complain necessarily but even with high draft picks there are no guarantees. Big Mike Williams was a very high pick, and while it is still too early to label him, he has not lived up to that lofty draft status. Grove and Carey will be rookies, so there is no guarantee they will be an upgrade over Sullivan and Teague.

A few years ago everyone was begging for that tackle from Florida and the Bills go ahead and trade down for Clements. Turns out great move because that tackle (can't remember his name but drafted by Tampa - or was it guard Cosey Coleman from Tenn.?) is average at best and Clements and Henry are budding stars.


i will take overkill and have great back ups then if it works out that the guys that are currently scrubs (ie. teague, sully, tucker, sobieski) turn out to be good.

there is no more important piece to the offense than the oline.. if your oline is great.. then guys like jake delhomme, brady, trent green, ect look like they are the best players in the league. that goes for your RBs as well.

[EDS]

The lines are definitely the building block of a successful team, I just think that there already is some talent to work with on this team. Tucker was a huge improvement on Pucillo and Sullivan is very talented - though obviously not consistent. To me, Sullivan has as much talent as Carey or Grove, probably more. Sobieski has some talent as well. Time will tell. I think quality lineman can be found in latter rounds - particularly with the right coaching.

The best hope for improvement on the line though is the development of Mike Williams. The money invested in him really makes drafting another lineman in the first cost prohibitive - you can't spend all the teams money in one place. If he does improve, then he and Villareal are a great right side.

[finsrclowns]

Originally posted by Tatonka
for my money.. this is my dream right now.

trade down w/ philly. for their 1st, 2nd and 4th next year.

1st pick - carey (G)
2nd pick - losman (QB)
2nd 2nd pick - grove (C)
3rd pick - lavalais (DT)
3rd 3rd pick (trade next years 2nd) - colbert (WR)
4th pick - peters (TE)
5th pick - karney (FB)
7th pick - van pelt (QB)
7th pick - any kicker


that draft right there would make us a championship team much sooner rather than later. that is one serious smash mouth draft that would be tough to beat.

I agree. Where do we sign up for this draft? I'll take it in a heartbeat right now. I think I see how you get the 2nd 2nd, but how do you get the 2nd 3rd? Where do you have Carey going at? My guess is 22-24, although the Vikings are now indicating they're interested in him at 19. And do you really think Colbert will be around late 3rd? I doubt it.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
As I understand it its just Gilbride system just simplified for the QB sake. Also EE it was my call on who to invite. I set up the whole experts draft nobody knew except the 5 of us and Stampede bc I talk to him online.


You're first one out in Log's Apprentice. :mad:

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart



You're first one out in Log's Apprentice. :mad:

Not if I take you down with me

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by finsrclowns
I agree. Where do we sign up for this draft? I'll take it in a heartbeat right now. I think I see how you get the 2nd 2nd, but how do you get the 2nd 3rd? Where do you have Carey going at? My guess is 22-24, although the Vikings are now indicating they're interested in him at 19. And do you really think Colbert will be around late 3rd? I doubt it.

the second 2nd is from our trade down.

the second 3rd is from trading our 2nd rounder next year.. and it doesnt have to be that late.

[BuffaloRanger]

Originally posted by DraftBoy


As I understand it its just Gilbride system just simplified for the QB sake. Also EE it was my call on who to invite. I set up the whole experts draft nobody knew except the 5 of us and Stampede bc I talk to him online.

It's a totally different offense. In Gilbride's offense the routes are determined by the def alignment on each play. So each WR has the choice of 3 different routes or more on each play. And the QB needs to read this on the fly. There was no set safety valve receiver. Only Gilbride run's his sort of offense because he doesn't know how to change with the times.

The LBers today are so fast as to make the traditional weaknesses of the 2 deep zone, non-existent, as they can get deep fast, cutting off the 15 yard out and hitch patterns, and killing the 15 yard TE seam routs. Throw in all the movement in the secondary, and the advent of the zone blitz, and this style of offense struggles mightily, as it becomes harder for the QB and WRs to be on the same page, both before and after the snap. (from Ingtar33)

Clement's will be a completely different offense.