Ingtar? Please make me feel better about Losman

[shadowfax]

I don't see the kind of production in his resume to reconcile trading a first round pick. I see an immature kid with a chip on his shoulder. Big deal.

[Ingtar33]

ah.. you're looking for the wrong fellow to make you feal better about this pick.

All i can say possitive about him is he has the best arm in the draft.

I've got nothing else to say that you'll want to hear.

[lordofgun]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
ah.. you're looking for the wrong fellow to make you feal better about this pick.

All i can say possitive about him is he has the best arm in the draft.

I've got nothing else to say that you'll want to hear.

:eek:

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by shadowfax
I don't see the kind of production in his resume to reconcile trading a first round pick. I see an immature kid with a chip on his shoulder. Big deal.

you have to take into account the players.. or lack there of.. around him an tulane.. the guys offensive line was as bad as it gets.. he wrs were marginal at best.. so of coarse his number will not look quite as good. but they were by no means bad.

[BidsJr]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
ah.. you're looking for the wrong fellow to make you feal better about this pick.

All i can say possitive about him is he has the best arm in the draft.

I've got nothing else to say that you'll want to hear.

Couldn't you say best mobility of the top 4?

[Ingtar33]

What I mean, is that Losman has a freakishly strong and accurate arm, he can make throws I’m not sure are possible in the positions he's in when he makes them (mostly all arm, with little to no help from his lower body).

But beyond the golden arm, he's got a mushy head, crappy attitude and piss poor technique, all of which make him a high risk/ high reward pickup.

High risk because people like him are often the guys who end up in jail, or drugging themselves out of the league. Or they simply prove to be too erratic to be dedicated to their career to the degree necessary to make it at this level. However, his physical gifts are such, that if he does, in the end "get it" and grows up, he has enough physical gifts to get him into the hall of fame.

Hence, he is a highly risky pick.

Since he asked me to make him feel better about the pick, all I was saying was that I couldn’t, beyond tell him that Losman had the best arm in the draft.

[PeteG]

Could you please tell us what we dont want to hear then? I love your posts Ingtar- thanks for all the insight!

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
What I mean, is that Losman has a freakishly strong and accurate arm, he can make throws I’m not sure are possible in the positions he's in when he makes them (mostly all arm, with little to no help from his lower body).

But beyond the golden arm, he's got a mushy head, crappy attitude and piss poor technique, all of which make him a high risk/ high reward pickup.

High risk because people like him are often the guys who end up in jail, or drugging themselves out of the league. Or they simply prove to be too erratic to be dedicated to their career to the degree necessary to make it at this level. However, his physical gifts are such, that if he does, in the end "get it" and grows up, he has enough physical gifts to get him into the hall of fame.

Hence, he is a highly risky pick.

Since he asked me to make him feel better about the pick, all I was saying was that I couldn’t, beyond tell him that Losman had the best arm in the draft.


Sounds live Favre!!!! :up:

[Ingtar33]

his is fastest of the top 4, speed hardly translates into the good kind of mobility, look at Rob Johnson. He was a fast man, and moble if you counted his rushing yards. Yet i doubt anyone would call him a mobile QB.

John Elway was lucky if he could run a 4.8 in his youth let alone in his old age, yet he clearly was a moble QB.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
High risk because people like him are often the guys who end up in jail, or drugging themselves out of the league.

wow, ing.. that is so incredible harsh to even imply that losman, who has a completely clean record and has NEVER been in trouble with drugs or the law, would end up in jail or on drugs because he is cocky.

[Ingtar33]

and yes... the Farve comparison is rather apropos, yet for every Farve there is 4 or 5 Ryan Leafs, who rubbed me the wrong way in the same way Losman does.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
and yes... the Farve comparison is rather apropos, yet for every Farve there is 4 or 5 Ryan Leafs, who rubbed me the wrong way in the same way Losman does.

:cry:

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
What I mean, is that Losman has a freakishly strong and accurate arm, he can make throws I’m not sure are possible in the positions he's in when he makes them (mostly all arm, with little to no help from his lower body).

But beyond the golden arm, he's got a mushy head, crappy attitude and piss poor technique, all of which make him a high risk/ high reward pickup.

High risk because people like him are often the guys who end up in jail, or drugging themselves out of the league. Or they simply prove to be too erratic to be dedicated to their career to the degree necessary to make it at this level. However, his physical gifts are such, that if he does, in the end "get it" and grows up, he has enough physical gifts to get him into the hall of fame.

Hence, he is a highly risky pick.

Since he asked me to make him feel better about the pick, all I was saying was that I couldn’t, beyond tell him that Losman had the best arm in the draft.

Just great. This only confirms my belief TD f**ked up.

THIS WAS THE YEAR TO GET OUR FUTURE QB.

Too bad TD didn't have the talent to get the job done. :cynic:

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Mr. Cynical
Just great. This only confirms my belief TD f**ked up.

THIS WAS THE YEAR TO GET OUR FUTURE QB,

Too bad TD didn't have the talent to get the job done. :cynic:

Like everyone else, I trust and value ingtar's opinion.

But I'll wait and see. He hasn't thrown one ball yet, and you're saying TD f'ed up.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Mr. Cynical
Just great. This only confirms my belief TD f**ked up.

THIS WAS THE YEAR TO GET OUR FUTURE QB.

Too bad TD didn't have the talent to get the job done. :cynic:

wow.. baseless posts like that just absolutely ****ing infuriate me.

you havent seen him play a god damn ****ing down.. but you are sure that he is a ****ing loser that cant be a future franchise qb.

can you give me the ****ing powerball numbers for this weekend too?

jesus christ.

[Ingtar33]

sorry T,

I'm a bit on the tired side, and not the least bit pleased with how the draft went for either team. Our owner got a little hands on today... and I’m not happy, nor is out scouting staff with the direction we went in today. Its hard to work a year on this, only to have some... well I should stop there.

As to JP, I was only making the point, that most of the players with his "personality" (i know, I’ve only met him twice, and talked to him at length once), end up in trouble. Sure a few of the best players are like him, but most of the busts are too. Its a story you see so often that you kind off get jaded.

[Ingtar33]

But on the bright side, JPL has an unbelievable arm, and makes throws Eli or Ben couldn't make with both feet planted firmly on the ground (Losman likes to throw without the aid of his legs... or even feet planted).

Figure a decent QB coach to calm his happy feet, two years on the bench to help him mature, and he might be NFL ready.

[Tatonka]

:rolleyes:

[DraftBoy]

He'll have a year

[Tatonka]

**** the drew truce.

[Ingtar33]

what?

Would you rather i sugarcoat it? I'm not going to skewer TD or the Bills for this pick. I don't think he overpaid, or took him too early. Maybe 1 in 5 people in our scouting department had him rated the 2nd best QB on the board.

I never saw "it" when i watched him play. Nothing he ever did made me sit up and notice, until i was looking over some of the tape, then the quality of his arm became apparent. Yes he's a physical specimen, but so was Kyle Boller (at least, thank god, Losmen performed admirably in college behind a crap line, where as Boller was terrible in college, only wowing scouts in tryouts)

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
what?

Would you rather i sugarcoat it? I'm not going to skewer TD or the Bills for this pick. I don't think he overpaid, or took him too early. Maybe 1 in 5 people in our scouting department had him rated the 2nd best QB on the board.

I never saw "it" when i watched him play. Nothing he ever did made me sit up and notice, until i was looking over some of the tape, then the quality of his arm became apparent. Yes he's a physical specimen, but so was Kyle Boller (at least, thank god, Losmen performed admirably in college behind a crap line, where as Boller was terrible in college, only wowing scouts in tryouts)

point taken.

[CWOUSARET]

losman is a good fit here - we have the qb guru to correct his mechanical problems (at time his foot work isnt the best) - a built in learning curve for this year - he is a tough player - i love his arrogance/cockiness - and with no doubt the best arm (and a classic qb release) in this year's draft. im a drew guy but he will have to play well all year (and he can do just that) to keep losman off the field.

[smack541]

You can analyze all you want. Losman is our future now. I think everyone should support him and give him a chance. Wait for him to screw up before you sacrifice him. In Losman We Trust!!

[Billzz]

Rather have em cocky then all passive and quiet like Shaun King was in TB.

[BigZ]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
what?

Would you rather i sugarcoat it? I'm not going to skewer TD or the Bills for this pick. I don't think he overpaid, or took him too early. Maybe 1 in 5 people in our scouting department had him rated the 2nd best QB on the board.

I never saw "it" when i watched him play. Nothing he ever did made me sit up and notice, until i was looking over some of the tape, then the quality of his arm became apparent. Yes he's a physical specimen, but so was Kyle Boller (at least, thank god, Losmen performed admirably in college behind a crap line, where as Boller was terrible in college, only wowing scouts in tryouts)

Thanks for the insight. We've got some of the best QB coaches around. Hopefully they can take the raw talent and make something good out of it. I have a feeling Sam Wyche might make him better.

[mypoorfriendme]

Originally posted by Ingtar33


I'm a bit on the tired side, and not the least bit pleased with how the draft went for either team. Our owner got a little hands on today... and I’m not happy, nor is out scouting staff with the direction we went in today. Its hard to work a year on this, only to have some... well I should stop there.



wel...that makes me feel a whole lot better about this draft

:sadwalk:

[EDS]

Originally posted by zielinski


Thanks for the insight. We've got some of the best QB coaches around. Hopefully they can take the raw talent and make something good out of it. I have a feeling Sam Wyche might make him better.


I agree completely. Wyche is an excellent teacher. As is Clements - look what he did with Kordell and Maddux.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
his is fastest of the top 4, speed hardly translates into the good kind of mobility, look at Rob Johnson.
NOW you've done it Ingtar. You used the two ugly words that is gonna make me :puke:

:cry:

[shelby]

Originally posted by smack541
You can analyze all you want. Losman is our future now. I think everyone should support him and give him a chance. Wait for him to screw up before you sacrifice him.

:bf1: Excellent post.

Thanks, Ing, for the insight. i am completely ignorant about the draft and the players we have selected. Thanks for educating me.

[Cntrygal]

Ingtar,

Positive or Negative, I love reading your posts. Thanks!

[StanMarino13]

The pick of Losman on the main page looks like he has the Fiedler ears.

[Novacane]

Originally posted by StanMarino13
The pick of Losman on the main page looks like he has the Fiedler ears.


omg............he does! Although they are not nearly as big as JF's. Feilder could fly if he learned to flap those babies.

[eyedog]

The reason his feet were rarely planted last year was because he was running for his life and throwing on the run all season.
He has the best arm and most mobility of the top four. He's a leader with an edge to him, which is a good thing for a qb imo. I'm very happy with the pick. I had him rated #2 behind Ben, with Manning #3, and Rivers #4.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
ah.. you're looking for the wrong fellow to make you feal better about this pick.

All i can say possitive about him is he has the best arm in the draft.

I've got nothing else to say that you'll want to hear.

Hey Ing, did you meet him personally? Or are all your reservations about him from your professional opinion?

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
sorry T,

I'm a bit on the tired side, and not the least bit pleased with how the draft went for either team. Our owner got a little hands on today... and I’m not happy, nor is out scouting staff with the direction we went in today. Its hard to work a year on this, only to have some... well I should stop there.

As to JP, I was only making the point, that most of the players with his "personality" (i know, I’ve only met him twice, and talked to him at length once), end up in trouble. Sure a few of the best players are like him, but most of the busts are too. Its a story you see so often that you kind off get jaded.

I guess that answers my question. I should learn to read the whole thread before responding. :)

I just was wondering if it was more his attitude that turned you off more than his abilities? Also wonder if he came off as condecending because you were only a scout. That might make some of his comments to the media seem phoney. This kind of insight into players is rare.

[imbondz]

hopefully, some of Bledsoes humility and leadership will rub off on him. No OL is going to respect a cocky A****** who can't back it up.

[lordofgun]

Originally posted by Tatonka
**** the drew truce.

Now you're talkin'. :up:

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
What I mean, is that Losman has a freakishly strong and accurate arm, he can make throws I’m not sure are possible in the positions he's in when he makes them (mostly all arm, with little to no help from his lower body).

But beyond the golden arm, he's got a mushy head, crappy attitude and piss poor technique, all of which make him a high risk/ high reward pickup.

High risk because people like him are often the guys who end up in jail, or drugging themselves out of the league. Or they simply prove to be too erratic to be dedicated to their career to the degree necessary to make it at this level. However, his physical gifts are such, that if he does, in the end "get it" and grows up, he has enough physical gifts to get him into the hall of fame.

Hence, he is a highly risky pick.

Since he asked me to make him feel better about the pick, all I was saying was that I couldn’t, beyond tell him that Losman had the best arm in the draft.

How does he compare to Henson? Was that in hindsight the better option?

[Earthquake Enyart]

Favre and Bradshaw aren't Mensa members, as far as I know. :eek:

[Ingtar33]

Henson? I would rank him higher than Henson.

Actually, compared to past 1st round QB drafts, JPL was ranked higher than...

Palmer, Boller, Harrington, Rivers, Grossman, Ramsey...

he tied or had a lower rating than Eli Manning, David Carr, Micheal Vick, Byron Leftwich, and Ben Roethlisberger.

[Earthquake Enyart]

I'd be interested to hear your take on Grossman.

He's short, but he has a gun, and I like him. :up:

He's a cocky guy too.

[TypicalBill]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
Henson? I would rank him higher than Henson.

Actually, compared to past 1st round QB drafts, JPL was ranked higher than...

Palmer, Boller, Harrington, Rivers, Grossman, Ramsey...

he tied or had a lower rating than Eli Manning, David Carr, Micheal Vick, Byron Leftwich, and Ben Roethlisberger.


thats great :up:

[Captain gameboy]

I'm giving the guy a pass on the attitude thing.

He had a limited amount of time to make an impression, and he knew he was 4 out of 4 in the NFL personnel dept. picture, and knew Tulane Green Wave football is not on ESPN every night.

There's, potentially, millions of $'s at stake, and I'm sure he was very aware of that.
Some of it was his natural personality, some personal marketing.
I get really tired of the boilerplate, tell them what they want to hear robots that the commish and their agents wants them to be.

The guy makes my heart beat about the Bills a lot faster than it did in Dec.
I'll wait until there's a much bigger body of evidence about him before passing judgement.

For now, I'm OK with it, and perfectly happy using the logic that we got our QB a year early.

[shadowfax]

when you say this, do you mean the average ratings of all the scouts for your team, or all the scouts you have spoken to over this period of time? Obviously, the concern about losman isn't his talent or coachability, it's his mental maturity. He seems like such a "dude" in a man's position. But I was concerned about his 14,31 jump on two wonderlics. ANy info on that first test? was he hung over, ill-prepared, or what? My concern is his (assumed lack of) forensic abilities, pre-snap. And the ability to recall complex play calls. I'm not saying he's an idiot, and from what Wyche says, he's a quick study. So I'm asking, I'm not stating...


Originally posted by Ingtar33
Henson? I would rank him higher than Henson.

Actually, compared to past 1st round QB drafts, JPL was ranked higher than...

Palmer, Boller, Harrington, Rivers, Grossman, Ramsey...

he tied or had a lower rating than Eli Manning, David Carr, Micheal Vick, Byron Leftwich, and Ben Roethlisberger.

[TigerJ]

I think this discussion confirms the obvious, that scouting is an inexact art, combining both objective and subjective judgements on players. All of Ingtar's observations about Losman are valid ones. Yet he would say Losman has a chance to be a great QB in the league, wouldn't you, Ingtar. It's just that he has some characteristics that by his judgement indicate at good chance that Losman won't be a success. Since Losman is a Buffalo Bill, we can only hope that Losman beats the odds and hits it big.

I think everything we saw in camp was encouraging. Losman showed the arm strength and accuracy that wowed scouts, and while he is obviously confident, did not seem arrogant, admitted he had much to learn and seemed to accept and welcome that he needed a period of apprenticeship. As has been mentioned, Losman has the advantage not only of being in a situation where he is not expected to lead the team to victory next season, he has a head coach, an offensive coordinator, and a QB coach, all of whom seem to have an outstandinig ability to mentor and manage a young QB, not to mention a QB who is about as gracious and helpful as he could be.

[Ingtar33]

Yes TJ,

Does Losman have the tools to be a Pro-Bowl/HOF QB? Sure he does. I probably would bet against it, but you never know. He reminds me of some colossal QB flops. He also has the same traits that mark out some of the greats in the game.

However those traits show up in the biggest flops you'll see as well. When scouting my job is to steer my team toward smart drafting. Away from gambles.

The general idea is, with a 1st round pick, you want a future pro-bowler. Anything less, and you've wasted the pick. As a result, character issues, such as those Losman has, become rather large warning flags for the scouting department. We've all seen the flops come and go, and have noted some of the common character traits in all of them. All scouting departments note these. As a result, we strongly urge the GM/HC toward players who have perhaps the same talent but without the "red flags". An example of how this tends to play out would be the draft a few years ago. Our department would have made the same choice of Mike Williams over McK, pick 4 was way too high to risk on a selfish head case like McK.

I disliked the drafting of Losman from the standpoint that he really was too big a risk to use a first or high second pick on.

That said, you've got to love the way the kid plays on the field.

[EDS]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
Henson? I would rank him higher than Henson.

Actually, compared to past 1st round QB drafts, JPL was ranked higher than...

Palmer, Boller, Harrington, Rivers, Grossman, Ramsey...

he tied or had a lower rating than Eli Manning, David Carr, Micheal Vick, Byron Leftwich, and Ben Roethlisberger.

Wow, picking a quarterback is pure guess work. So Losman could have been the number 1 pick in the draft last year, number 3 the year before, and so forth.

On a related note, what is your take on some of these other young QBs who have had some time to play. From the Carr/Harrington/Ramsey draft it seems to me that if I had to pick one of those three to be my QB now, I would take Ramsey. Last year's group seems like it is still too early to tell, but early results suggest Leftwich.

[Shiny Chicken]

Ingy... I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Buffalo News article on Losman yesterday...

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45110

[Ingtar33]

no... last year Losman would have gone (if I was drafting for all the teams) behind Leftwich as the second QB

The year before he also would have gone as the second (all be it, a very close second) QB behind David Carr.

[Ingtar33]

interesting artical,

one thing you've got to love about the press is that they can paint a pretty picture. I heard the "boat" and "car" stories before, and left it as a mark against his character, as far as im concerned stealing is stealing.

That said, the picture painted in that story does put a slightly different light on some of the things ive heard. would i have changed the Eval if i had read that before the draft? Maybe... i don't know, it certainly would have given me a little bit of pause when evaluating his character.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
interesting artical,

one thing you've got to love about the press is that they can paint a pretty picture. I heard the "boat" and "car" stories before, and left it as a mark against his character, as far as im concerned stealing is stealing.


I agree 100%. I don't know why it is that people look past things like this as kids will be kids type of things. I know we are looking past it because he is now our QB. People can justify just about anything these days. A guy in his low 30's and married gets into a hot tub in his underwear with an underage teenage girl and it was the girls fault for enticing him. Sometimes we will look the other way no matter what happens if it involves our favorite player. I just wonder what these same people would say if it was their boat or their teenage daughter.

I thought the biggest plus to his character was his leaving his family and friends to go to a program across the country thinking he had a better chance to start and because he was losing focus being so close to home. That is a pretty mature decision.

[TigerJ]

I too would agree that stealing is stealing. However, I also believe that part of growing up can include learning that that stuff is wrong. I don't believe that we are locked into being the person we seem to be at 15. Hopefully if he was asked today, he wouldn't do that kind of thing anymore.

[Turf]

Why didn't I think of this. Start a thread and call it make me feel better.

[Throne Logic]

Here's my analysis:

Part Hispanic | Part Caucasian

LOS | MAN


Full English Translation = THE MAN!

;)

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Throne Logic
Here's my analysis:

Part Hispanic | Part Caucasian

LOS | MAN


Full English Translation = THE MAN!

;)
;)

[helmetguy]

Originally posted by TigerJ
I too would agree that stealing is stealing. However, I also believe that part of growing up can include learning that that stuff is wrong. I don't believe that we are locked into being the person we seem to be at 15. Hopefully if he was asked today, he wouldn't do that kind of thing anymore.
Here's a neat little story:

We had about 40 students in my college Juvenile Justice class. The professor-who is President Judge and Juvenile Court Judge for a county in upstate PA-posed this question to the class, "How many of you were juvenile delinquents?" Not a single student raised his or her hand.

The Professor then read a long list of acts, offenses, pranks and such that, if one were caught doing them, would result in the person being adjudicated as a Juvenile Delinquent. After reading the entire list, the professor then asked, "Did anyone in here ever do anything from this list, before they turned 18, but didn't get caught?" After a short pause, forty hands were raised.

A few weeks later, the Professor's presentation included a counselor from a treatment facility for adjudicated delinquent juveniles. The counselor briught with him one of the juveniles, who gave us a little overview of what it was like to be in that place, and a general idea of what he did to end being sent there.

After reading the stories about Losman, I couldn't help but recall the "trick" the Professor/Judge played on our class. His point was, the mistakes of youth do not necessarily define a person's life.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by helmetguy

After reading the stories about Losman, I couldn't help but recall the "trick" the Professor/Judge played on our class. His point was, the mistakes of youth do not necessarily define a person's life.

Most kids do things that if caught could land themselves in trouble. On this point I agree. But, continued transgressions of this nature usually will lead to more serious transgressions that would result in stiffer penalties. It wasn't that Losman took out one boat once and decided it was a bad idea, it was that he seemed to do it several times and that he wasn't bothered by it at all. I would equate what he did to kids stealing a car and taking a joyride. I think the fact that it was boats that he borrowed and at night that nobody has a problem with. He seems to be a good kid from what we read in the papers, but you never know. I hope he over all that stuff, but if I had seen that before the draft, I would have been a little more upset with the pick at the time.

[helmetguy]

The point the professor was trying make, and part of the reason I posted it, was that, here we were, 40 students, from a variety of backgrounds, ranging in age from 18 to...um...(I don't think I was the oldest in the class), who could, by definition, have been considered juvenile delinquents; but who's career ambitions were in the field of law enforcement. Had our "youthful transgressions" continued unabated, it's a sure bet that, eventually, most (if not all) of us would have been in the same situation as the guest speaker. Now, translate that into what we know of Losman. By now, we would have known about any scrapes he may have had with the law, or any disciplinary problems he might have had at Tulane. I'd be much more concerned if his "joyriding" in the boats was just one aspect of a pattern of delinquent/criminal behavior.

Just a note: Our "guest" from the Juvenile facility earned his H.S. diploma and, at last report, just completed his first year of a two-year trade school program for automobile mechanics; and has been a model student the entire time. This kid did a whole lot more than just joyriding to get himself in trouble, btw.