OK.. I am just going to say this...

[Tatonka]

What Drew did (assuming all the posts about him dropping his salary down to 3.5 million dollars a year) was a very decent and team oriented thing to do.

I will be the first to admit, when drew has all day in the pocket, he can be a great qb. now that should be the case for every qb in the nfl, but i know it to be a fact with drew.. i have seen it. if you give him time, he can do fairly well.

You guys get so wrapped up in the "drew hater" **** like Fairway, Draftboy, or myself actually want the guy dead or something, which is far from the truth. I simply dont want him as our qb, but i will root for him just the same.

With the current situation, again, assuming that the initial reports on Drew's salary has been cut and not just moved around, we should have the money to make a move to resign schobel and maybe jennings. that would be a big deal for this franchise. I can say that i like the fact that Drew did this, because he is respected by the players, and hopefully others will follow suit. He is obviously finacially set for life, and as he stated himself.. money doesnt mean a whole lot.. winning does.

I hope he is able to put together a good season, and the coaches dont rely on him to win games, by letting Henry and McGahee pound the rock all year. Drew could be good in that kind of scenario, throwing the ball over peoples heads while they are staring at our RBs on the playfake.

I hope we use this extra money to maybe add just one more stud on the oline and use all the rest to resign our three big FA's next year (Patt williams, Schobel, and Jennings).

So, kudo's to Drew for helping the team out and here is to a good season for him.

:cheers:


:gobills:

[Dozerdog]

Excellent post!:up:

[buffmaniac]

That's a good post and I understand where you are coming from. Just do me favor and name me some QBs who have success without good OL play.

[L.A. Playa]

One thing about Tatonka he has strong opinions but also has sense, some people throw out stupid stats all day long but when it comes down to it chemistry and team unity mean alot more than stats. Is Drew the greatest QB of alltime, NO, but can this team win with him, YES, time to see what our new staff is made of can they bring this team together and play on the players strengths or will they fail to execute again???? There should be alot of excitement for Bills fans these days things are starting to come together

[justasportsfan]

I never saw you guys as Drew haters.






Freakin Drew despisers :shakeno:

[L.A. Playa]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
That's a good post and I understand where you are coming from. Just do me favor and name me some QBs who have success without good OL play.

Mike Vick, and probably alot of scrambling QB's but I don't beleiev any scrambling QB's ever won the SB Elway was past his scrambling days when he did

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by pmacla
Mike Vick, and probably alot of scrambling QB's but I don't beleiev any scrambling QB's ever won the SB Elway was past his scrambling days when he did

Name me any team that went to the Super Bowl, regardless of QB- that had crappy OL play

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
That's a good post and I understand where you are coming from. Just do me favor and name me some QBs who have success without good OL play.

great qbs are successful every year no matter what.. guys like marino, farve, ect.. did it ever matter that they didnt have great rbs every year.. or that their olines werent the best every year? bledsoe can be a decent qb, but he will never be a hall of famer. the only way i could possibly see it happen is if he were able to win a couple superbowls of his own before he retired, like elway did.

but if you think that the oline is going to be drastically improved from last year? we swapped villarrial for pucillo and ruben brown for sullivan. do you think that is enough that drew can't blame the oline? just curious.

i will also say this.. the restructuring really doesnt bother me, BECAUSE.. regardless of what his deal is.. if he puts up back to back horrid seasons, with a first round pick qb waiting on the bench, he will be sat down and the young gun will get a chance next year. the only way for drew to keep that from happening is for him to keep his turnovers down. i dont even care if the guy only throws 20td.. as long as he has less than 10 total turnovers (ints and fumbles). if i have to sit through his almost 2 turnovers a game average like this last year (24 turnovers in 16 games), i will just be sick.

but mularky says he is going with players who produce.. so i will assume that he means it.. so either drew plays good or he wont be around long.. and he saved us some money by restructuring in the mean time.

[L.A. Playa]

Football is the consumate team game, Jim Kelly, Marino, Favre etc would have had a hard time winning with our coaches gameplans and their failure to execute their minds to devise a system a 3rd grader could defend, coaching was seriously lacking as well as leadership from the coaching staff last year the only difference Kelly Marino or favre might have done was to knock out KG and GW but win-loss probably wouldnt have changed not totally Drew fault he just wasnt vocal enough and let GW put all blame on him

[Halbert]

The clouds parted and the sun shone through.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by pmacla
Football is the consumate team game, Jim Kelly, Marino, Favre etc would have had a hard time winning with our coaches gameplans and their failure to execute their minds to devise a system a 3rd grader could defend, coaching was seriously lacking as well as leadership from the coaching staff last year the only difference Kelly Marino or favre might have done was to knock out KG and GW but win-loss probably wouldnt have changed not totally Drew fault he just wasnt vocal enough and let GW put all blame on him


i would have had a ton more respect for drew if he would have called out the coaching staff.. i am not a fan of guys like ty law calling out his coaches ect.. BUT in a case like last year.. where it was so absolutely obvious that gilbride and williams were killing this team, someone HAD to stand up.. anyone.. and the one guy that did, ruben.. got shut down and kicked out of town.. i still to this day dont know why he hasnt just come out and said what happened.. i guess there was no need to, because they were fired.. but our season could have been saved last year if one of the damn leaders on the team just sacked up.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Tatonka
great qbs are successful every year no matter what.. guys like marino, farve, ect.. did it ever matter that they didnt have great rbs every year.. or that their olines werent the best every year? bledsoe can be a decent qb, but he will never be a hall of famer. the only way i could possibly see it happen is if he were able to win a couple superbowls of his own before he retired, like elway did.

No they're not . Steve Young in Tampa Bay for example.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Halbert
The clouds parted and the sun shone through.

let me ask you something, now that we are all on the same page.

Our wrs are loaded. our rbs are more than loaded. we have a good te, and added 2 more good ones. villarrial has replaced pucillo. sullivan has replaced ruben.. we have the best oline coach in the league.. our defense should stay top 10 if not better.

so my quesitons are..

1) does drew have any excuses for this year?

2) if he ends up with more turnovers than touchdowns.. then what?

3) If he ends up playing around 2003's level, how much blame to you put on the coaches for thinking they could change him, and TD for keeping him around?

i would like to hear from savior and others on this. dont start slinging ****.. just answer the two questions.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
No they're not . Steve Young in Tampa Bay for example.

point taken.. but he was basically an nfl rookie, newbie at the time.. no?

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Tatonka
point taken.. but he was basically an nfl rookie, newbie at the time.. no?

He had the same experience as Kelly- a couple of years in the USFL. He was there for a number of years, not just 1 or 2

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
He had the same experience as Kelly- a couple of years in the USFL. He was there for a number of years, not just 1 or 2


i would like to hear your take on the 3 questions above.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
He had the same experience as Kelly- a couple of years in the USFL. He was there for a number of years, not just 1 or 2


and that is totaly wrong actually..

he played 5 games his first year in tampa.. and only one full year.. so less than 2 years in tampa..

then he went to san fran.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/YounSt00.htm

[Romes]

Originally posted by Tatonka


let me ask you something, now that we are all on the same page.

Our wrs are loaded. our rbs are more than loaded. we have a good te, and added 2 more good ones. villarrial has replaced pucillo. sullivan has replaced ruben.. we have the best oline coach in the league.. our defense should stay top 10 if not better.

so my quesitons are..

1) does drew have any excuses for this year?

2) if he ends up with more turnovers than touchdowns.. then what?

3) If he ends up playing around 2003's level, how much blame to you put on the coaches for thinking they could change him, and TD for keeping him around?

i would like to hear from savior and others on this. dont start slinging ****.. just answer the two questions.

Ok...I'll answer them :D

1. Not really. His only possible excuses would be if TC flops as a rookie OC but it seems like they plan on running a lot so that doesn't not appear to happen. Also if the WR or OL get hurt in bunches Bledsoe could struggle. I'm not making excuses already, I'm just pointing out scenarios in which Bledsoe could suck.

2. Well, let him play the whole year if he is healthy. If he really stinks it up give Losman the job by training camp next year.

3. Not much at all. I know you would disagree here but I think they did the right thing. If this happened admit there mistake and move on.

[Tatonka]

i can accept those answers. thanks romes

[The Spaz]

Dan Marino sucked!:up:

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Dan Marino sucked!:up:

if he sucked, then bledsoe couldnt make a peewee team. :snicker:

[HenryRules]

I don't think I fall into either the hater or lover category, but I hate when people post questions on this board and no one answers them, so I'll chime in with mine.

Originally posted by Tatonka

1) does drew have any excuses for this year?


Yes I think he does. Until I see Evans perform and Reed play better than last year, I don't think our WRs are one of the best in the league. I don't think our OL is that much improved. yes, McNally has taken a bad OL to the Super Bowl, but OJ rushed for 2000 yards <i>once</i> and Mark Rypien was a SB MVP <i>once</i>. Brilliant individual achievements are rare, and I don't think McNally can duplicate it with the current line. That said, if everything lives up to its advance billing, then I don't think Drew has any excuses. Anyway, if his performance is supbar, then so who is available next year and sign them after cutting Drew (assuming the new contract makes this a reasonable option).


Originally posted by Tatonka

2) if he ends up with more turnovers than touchdowns.. then what?


Depends on our style of play. With McGahee and Henry and an OL as good as a lot of people think it will be I don't think we should be throwing the ball in the red zone much at all. Aikman was a very good QB who seldom threw any TD's because he didn't throw in the red zone much. As far as stats go (and I'm not a huge fan of them), I think INT-ATT ratio is more important than TD to INT ratio. (Btw, I think the talent is roughly the same as last year, which is why I'm holding reservations about how much we'll run).


Originally posted by Tatonka

3) If he ends up playing around 2003's level, how much blame to you put on the coaches for thinking they could change him, and TD for keeping him around?


I put it on TD and the scouting staff. Mularkey has yet to coach or work extensively with Bledsoe before and I'm not even sure if they've had any real workouts together. As OC of the Steelers, he would have been more involved examining his own team and the opposing defenses, I doubt he seriously evaluated Drew last year at all. He probably looked at tapes of Drew during the offseason, but our front office staff has had 2 years to evaluate him.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
if he sucked, then bledsoe couldnt make a peewee team. :snicker:

I thought you said that good QB's succeed no matter what?

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Tatonka



i would have had a ton more respect for drew if he would have called out the coaching staff.. i am not a fan of guys like ty law calling out his coaches ect.. BUT in a case like last year.. where it was so absolutely obvious that gilbride and williams were killing this team, someone HAD to stand up.. anyone.. and the one guy that did, ruben.. got shut down and kicked out of town.. i still to this day dont know why he hasnt just come out and said what happened.. i guess there was no need to, because they were fired.. but our season could have been saved last year if one of the damn leaders on the team just sacked up.

I'm sorry, but a person who points a finger will never be respected, never. Did it look obvious to you or everyone else that the coaching sucked last year? I know it did to me. You do the best you can and take responsibility for your own play. I don't know if Drew played the best he could be he definitely took the responsibility, and for that, among other things, he has my admiration and respect. Don't tell me that if Drew had said after Williams and staff were fired that they had an awful gameplan that was impossible to implement and that everyone was confused because of it, and that the players hated it, that the "I want a different QB than Drew" ers wouldn't have pointed to him and called him out for not taking the blame and pointing the finger at the coaches because they were fired. Or even if he did it before they were fired, their firings would have been blamed on Drew.

Suffice it to say, that some people will never be truly happy. As I like to point out, even during the midst of our superbowl runs (for instance after Reich won the comback game vs. Houston and the next game vs. Pittsburgh) people were still calling for Frank Reich to take the reins of the team. When Flutie was winning, people didn't think we were winning by enough points and wanted the younger guy with more "upside" to take control. I can remember back when Joe Ferguson was QBing the Bills, he was getting sacked and a lot of people wanted to give the job to a guy named Gary Marangi because he was a scrambler. As long as the team wins, I don't care if Travis Brown is the QB, but right now Drew is the best option we have, for now.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by chernobylwraiths


I'm sorry, but a person who points a finger will never be respected, never.

I agree to an extent. People who publicly point fingers about co-workers or whatever are never respected. However, if there's a problem and you look the other way, you will also never be respected. As the old saying goes, "If you're not part of the solution ..."

We don't, and probably never will, know if DB went to TD and told him our coaches were morons. If he did that, then that was the proper way to handle the mess.

[Dozerdog]

1) does drew have any excuses for this year?

I'm one who considers the entire equation and not looking for a "magic bullet"- a simple reason. If he misses open receiverswith time to pass, he has no "excuse". No one does. If the plays called and formations run make sense (No FB in motion BS) and adjustments are made on the blitz, and WRs are where they are supposed to be- he should (and will) succeed. If not- can him.

2) if he ends up with more turnovers than touchdowns.. then what?

See#1. Again, if he inexplicably drops the ball, or misses an open WR and hits a DB instead, and is given time but still makes mistakes, can him. If he's got a DE's or LB'ers helmet in his grill 2 seconds after the snap- well- any QB (Favre- Marino) will make forced plays, get sacked. make turnovers. Favre has had some horrid playoff turnovers the past few seasons under those conditions.

3) If he ends up playing around 2003's level, how much blame to you put on the coaches for thinking they could change him, and TD for keeping him around?

If the blocking is there, if the plays make sense, the offense is comprehendable to all the players and he still stinks- then get rid of him. But considering all the options ever since we traded for him in 2002- the Bills and TD have made the right decisions (Front office wise) in the entire QB situation. We got a playoff experienced Pro Bowl Vet (Other options were Chris Chandler, Kordell, and what's his face who's been on 4 teams in 4-5 years...Blake) That includes their decisions in this year's draft



You have been sucked into the mindset that "Blame" has to be stamped on anything that does not work out. Whatever happened to "play your cards the best way possible" and see what happens? You can play your blackjack hand perfectly all night long and still get crushed.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
1) does drew have any excuses for this year?

I'm one who considers the entire equation and not looking for a "magic bullet"- a simple reason. If he misses open receiverswith time to pass, he has no "excuse". No one does. If the plays called and formations run make sense (No FB in motion BS) and adjustments are made on the blitz, and WRs are where they are supposed to be- he should (and will) succeed. If not- can him.

2) if he ends up with more turnovers than touchdowns.. then what?

See#1. Again, if he inexplicably drops the ball, or misses an open WR and hits a DB instead, and is given time but still makes mistakes, can him. If he's got a DE's or LB'ers helmet in his grill 2 seconds after the snap- well- any QB (Favre- Marino) will make forced plays, get sacked. make turnovers. Favre has had some horrid playoff turnovers the past few seasons under those conditions.

3) If he ends up playing around 2003's level, how much blame to you put on the coaches for thinking they could change him, and TD for keeping him around?

If the blocking is there, if the plays make sense, the offense is comprehendable to all the players and he still stinks- then get rid of him. But considering all the options ever since we traded for him in 2002- the Bills and TD have made the right decisions (Front office wise) in the entire QB situation. We got a playoff experienced Pro Bowl Vet (Other options were Chris Chandler, Kordell, and what's his face who's been on 4 teams in 4-5 years...Blake)



You have been sucked into the mindset that "Blame" has to be stamped on anything that does not work out. Whatever happened to "play your cards the best way possible" and see what happens? You can play your blackjack hand perfectly all night long and still get crushed.

Excellent post Dozer!:up::beers:

[imbondz]

Packer fans have been calling for Favres head for the past few years, saying he's washed up, get him out of there, time to get the QB for the future in blah blah blah... They had mercy on him last season.

We booed Jim Kelly in a Monday Night game against the Rams, Frank Reich's first victory. Fans were screaming after the game, F*** Kelly. That was in 1989.

I'm not sure about Marino, but I know he didn't always have a great season.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Tatonka


let me ask you something, now that we are all on the same page.

Our wrs are loaded. our rbs are more than loaded. we have a good te, and added 2 more good ones. villarrial has replaced pucillo. sullivan has replaced ruben.. we have the best oline coach in the league.. our defense should stay top 10 if not better.

so my quesitons are..

1) does drew have any excuses for this year?

2) if he ends up with more turnovers than touchdowns.. then what?

3) If he ends up playing around 2003's level, how much blame to you put on the coaches for thinking they could change him, and TD for keeping him around?

i would like to hear from savior and others on this. dont start slinging ****.. just answer the two questions.

That's three questions. There will always be excuses, but if the planets align like you are suggesting, then no it wouldn't look that way.

If he ends up with more turnovers than TDs, I would still look at the record first. If he is obviously playing like crap, sure I would want to replace him, but if he goes several games without a TD pass because Travis and McGahee are racking up 30 touchdowns on the ground combined then I might say there is a reason why he isn't getting TDs.

If he ends up playing like he did last year. If he is getting time to throw and getting sacked too much, if he is underthrowing balls and getting picked off, if he isn't protecting the ball and fumbling, then I would expect the coaches to replace him before he can do too much damage. Nobody is irreplacable.

But again, there will be always some way for excuses.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
I thought you said that good QB's succeed no matter what?

? i did.


Originally posted by Dozerdog
1) does drew have any excuses for this year?

I'm one who considers the entire equation and not looking for a "magic bullet"- a simple reason. If he misses open receiverswith time to pass, he has no "excuse". No one does. If the plays called and formations run make sense (No FB in motion BS) and adjustments are made on the blitz, and WRs are where they are supposed to be- he should (and will) succeed. If not- can him.

2) if he ends up with more turnovers than touchdowns.. then what?

See#1. Again, if he inexplicably drops the ball, or misses an open WR and hits a DB instead, and is given time but still makes mistakes, can him. If he's got a DE's or LB'ers helmet in his grill 2 seconds after the snap- well- any QB (Favre- Marino) will make forced plays, get sacked. make turnovers. Favre has had some horrid playoff turnovers the past few seasons under those conditions.

3) If he ends up playing around 2003's level, how much blame to you put on the coaches for thinking they could change him, and TD for keeping him around?

If the blocking is there, if the plays make sense, the offense is comprehendable to all the players and he still stinks- then get rid of him. But considering all the options ever since we traded for him in 2002- the Bills and TD have made the right decisions (Front office wise) in the entire QB situation. We got a playoff experienced Pro Bowl Vet (Other options were Chris Chandler, Kordell, and what's his face who's been on 4 teams in 4-5 years...Blake)



You have been sucked into the mindset that "Blame" has to be stamped on anything that does not work out. Whatever happened to "play your cards the best way possible" and see what happens? You can play your blackjack hand perfectly all night long and still get crushed.

great line about blackjack. good post.


Originally posted by HenryRules
I don't think I fall into either the hater or lover category, but I hate when people post questions on this board and no one answers them, so I'll chime in with mine.


Yes I think he does. Until I see Evans perform and Reed play better than last year, I don't think our WRs are one of the best in the league. I don't think our OL is that much improved. yes, McNally has taken a bad OL to the Super Bowl, but OJ rushed for 2000 yards <i>once</i> and Mark Rypien was a SB MVP <i>once</i>. Brilliant individual achievements are rare, and I don't think McNally can duplicate it with the current line. That said, if everything lives up to its advance billing, then I don't think Drew has any excuses. Anyway, if his performance is supbar, then so who is available next year and sign them after cutting Drew (assuming the new contract makes this a reasonable option).



Depends on our style of play. With McGahee and Henry and an OL as good as a lot of people think it will be I don't think we should be throwing the ball in the red zone much at all. Aikman was a very good QB who seldom threw any TD's because he didn't throw in the red zone much. As far as stats go (and I'm not a huge fan of them), I think INT-ATT ratio is more important than TD to INT ratio. (Btw, I think the talent is roughly the same as last year, which is why I'm holding reservations about how much we'll run).



I put it on TD and the scouting staff. Mularkey has yet to coach or work extensively with Bledsoe before and I'm not even sure if they've had any real workouts together. As OC of the Steelers, he would have been more involved examining his own team and the opposing defenses, I doubt he seriously evaluated Drew last year at all. He probably looked at tapes of Drew during the offseason, but our front office staff has had 2 years to evaluate him.

so then you dont expect much out of this season?


Originally posted by chernobylwraiths
I'm sorry, but a person who points a finger will never be respected, never.

i am not talking about after the season was over.. i am talking about after week 4 or 5 when it was obvious that things were going down hill and it had alot to do with coaching. it is his job as a leader to help fix the problem.. he mentioned we didnt run enough.. but i didnt see him audibling to any runs.. but i did see him audibling out of them.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by HenryRules


I agree to an extent. People who publicly point fingers about co-workers or whatever are never respected. However, if there's a problem and you look the other way, you will also never be respected. As the old saying goes, &quot;If you're not part of the solution ...&quot;

We don't, and probably never will, know if DB went to TD and told him our coaches were morons. If he did that, then that was the proper way to handle the mess.

That's right. Deal with the problem like a man. Tell the coach there is a problem, if he does nothing, go to his boss, but you still do it in a respectful way. Gregg Williams wouldn't even take the play calling responsibilities away from Gilbride when he saw that it wasn't working. He should have fired the guy on the spot after the ten straight third and one pass.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Tatonka

so then you dont expect much out of this season?


I expect about 7-9 right now. I think we're about middle of the road at everywhere on offense and defense with some exceptions either way (great LB's, substandard OL). However, I think our special teams and rookie HC, OC are some big questions marks otherwise.

[imbondz]

Originally posted by Dozerdog

You have been sucked into the mindset that "Blame" has to be stamped on anything that does not work out. Whatever happened to "play your cards the best way possible" and see what happens? You can play your blackjack hand perfectly all night long and still get crushed.

Blackjack is evil!! But so fun :(

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by imbondz
Packer fans have been calling for Favres head for the past few years, saying he's washed up, get him out of there, time to get the QB for the future in blah blah blah... They had mercy on him last season.

We booed Jim Kelly in a Monday Night game against the Rams, Frank Reich's first victory. Fans were screaming after the game, F*** Kelly. That was in 1989.

I'm not sure about Marino, but I know he didn't always have a great season.
I was at that game!

One of my best sports moments ever!

Frank Reich sucked ass in that game for 57 minutes. But he put together 2 drives in the last 4 minutes ending in TD's to win it.

[helmetguy]

When did Bledsoe ever make excuses? I never heard him call out a single player or coach; neither as a Patriot nor as a Buffalo Bill. If anything, when he stunk it up- even when it was obvious that TD and KG blew it-Bledsoe shouldered the blame. However, to point this out leaves one open to being termed an "apologist" for the guy.

[imbondz]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
I was at that game!

One of my best sports moments ever!

Frank Reich sucked ass in that game for 57 minutes. But he put together 2 drives in the last 4 minutes ending in TD's to win it.

so was I :hi5:

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
? i did.

Yes.


great qbs are successful every year no matter what.. guys like marino, farve, ect.. did it ever matter that they didnt have great rbs every year.. or that their olines werent the best every year?

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Tatonka
i am not talking about after the season was over.. i am talking about after week 4 or 5 when it was obvious that things were going down hill and it had alot to do with coaching. it is his job as a leader to help fix the problem.. he mentioned we didnt run enough.. but i didnt see him audibling to any runs.. but i did see him audibling out of them.

I think Drew showed incredible class. If players got the green light to ***** and moan when they "perceive" a problem- then the league gets ovverun with Terrel Owens' and Allan Iversons.

Yes- I beleive the coaching was piss-poor- of historical proportions. But soon you have selfish players perceiving not enough plays their way or as AI one said "Practice? WTF? It's Practice?" - you wind up with no control over your team.


I would have loved to been a witness to the Ruben Brown mutiny and wish I knew the details. And who are we to know what Bledsoe and other players did to address their concerns to management? If they are using the media to ***** and moan then I don't want them on the team.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by imbondz

We booed Jim Kelly in a Monday Night game against the Rams, Frank Reich's first victory. Fans were screaming after the game, F*** Kelly. That was in 1989.

Didn't Reich play that whole game? Wasn't that the year Kelly got the shoulder hurt? And didn't Reich kind of play a crappy game and the defense played great but Frank led a last minute drive to win it? Was that the game?

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by chernobylwraiths
Didn't Reich play that whole game? Wasn't that the year Kelly got the shoulder hurt? And didn't Reich kind of play a crappy game and the defense played great but Frank led a last minute drive to win it? Was that the game?

Kelly got knocked out the week before at Indy- the beginning of the bickering Bills-

Here is a game recap-

BUFFALO 23, LOS ANGELES RAMS 20
In his first professional start in front of a prime time audience, Frank Reich and the Bills offense had a less than spectacular game for nearly 55 minutes. Reich was picked of on his first drive, but the Buffalo defense came through forcing a Rams punt.. Much maligned the first half of the season, they played inspired defense against the NFL’s most explosive offense. The Bills special teams had a rare miscue when recently acquired Mickey Sutton muffed the return, giving the Rams prime field position on the Bills 16. Buford McGee was on the receiving end of a Jim Everett 4 yard TD pass.

Buffalo managed to pull within 1 at the half on 2 Norwood FGs. The Rams managed to answer with a FG of their own in the third, and appeared to frustrate the conservative Bills offense. Both teams exchanged FGs in the 4th, giving the Rams a 13-9 advantage. With 6 minutes remaining, Reich managed to put together a drive of 86 yards in 10 plays. Thurman Thomas’s 1 yard plunge put Buffalo ahead 16-13 with 3:23 remaining.


The Buffalo defense appeared to finish the Rams off when Everett failed to connect on any of his 4 offensive plays. Taking over on downs at the Ram 20 yard line, Thurman Thomas fought for yards to give the Bills a first down that would end the game. However, Thomas fumbled and the Rams received one more shot at their own 22. Jim Everett made the Bills pay for their mistake, hitting WR Flipper Anderson on a 78 yard bomb on the very next play, giving the Rams an almost certain unlikely victory.


Down 20-16, Reich took over on his own 36 with 1:17 and 3 timeouts remaining. On the first play, Reich hit Andre Reed for 6. Reed fumbled when tackled, but Kent Hull recovered, sustaining the drive. On the next 3 plays, Reich found Thomas open on short dump off passes over the middle, gaining 17, 6, and 15 yards, placing the ball on the Ram 22 yard line. Ronnie Harmon broke open and caught a Reich pass down the sidelines to the Ram 8, stepping out of bounds killing the clock with 20 seconds left. On the next play, Reich hit Reed at the 2 yard line, and with 2 Rams defenders draped on his back, he powered his way across the plane of the goal line. With 16 seconds remaining, Reed put the Bills up for good 23-20.


http://www.billszone.com/YourSite/global/templates/view.php?action=YourSite_content&month=6&state=newsarchive&nid=4567

[mightyspaz]

Wow ... quite possibly the most wordy of all threads. But great posts! You guys all make good points. However I'm gonna agree with spaz, Marino Sucks! ... He was a great quarterback but the sheer fact that he was a dolphin means that he sucks.

But in all seriousness, in referense to the 3 questions, the only way to tell is to see what this year brings. The coaching staff likes Drew but they won't put up with losing. If Drew is the problem, the coaching staff will know and do what they need to. There's a whole lot that we don't see in practice and out of the public eye that we can't evaluate. I have confidense in Drew, but I'll be the first person to admit if I'm wrong.

BTW... does that mean the truce is over? ..... j/k

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Tatonka
1) does drew have any excuses for this year?

Hard to say...everything depends on not only him but the talent surrounding him. Sure it looks good on paper, but how will they mesh as a unit? Also, Mularkey should, with the help of Clements and Wyche, improve Bledsoe's play, but how will the staff work with the rest of the team? Like any year, you can't judge any player based on stats or other team achievements. I'd look at his decision-making, primarily.

Originally posted by Tatonka
2) if he ends up with more turnovers than touchdowns.. then what?
It depends...what happened on each of those interceptions? What happened on the completed passes. It's never just the QB involved.

Originally posted by Tatonka
3) If he ends up playing around 2003's level, how much blame to you put on the coaches for thinking they could change him, and TD for keeping him around?

I don't think I could blame TD or the coaching staff..only Drew. TD knows the history of Mularkey and Clements first-hand..he's seen them turn around Kordell and Maddox. Kordell's only history had been erratic and Maddox had only played like a decent QB in the Arena League and the XFL. He sucked in his previous NFL stops.

[The Spaz]

He was a great quarterback but the sheer fact that he was a dolphin means that he sucks.=mightyspaz

I really didn't mean he sucked I was just saying if a great QB will always succeed I'm just wondering what Marino's excuse was?

[mightyspaz]

Marino's problems all stem from his ankle. He ripped his achillies tendon. Otherwise, he was pretty mucha threat all the time.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by mightyspaz
Marino's problems all stem from his ankle. He ripped his achillies tendon. Otherwise, he was pretty mucha threat all the time.

Again I was not ripping Marino only responding to T's theory of a great qb will always succeed no matter what.

[Bert102176]

all I can say is TY Drew

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
I really didn't mean he sucked I was just saying if a great QB will always succeed I'm just wondering what Marino's excuse was?


Originally posted by The Spaz
Again I was not ripping Marino only responding to T's theory of a great qb will always succeed no matter what.

marino was a success, almost all the time.. he didnt win the superbowl because he never had a great supporting cast.. but that is my point.. drew gets so many passes because of a bad oline, coaching, wr injuries.. ect.. but marino always made it work.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
marino was a success, almost all the time.. he didnt win the superbowl because he never had a great supporting cast.. but that is my point.. drew gets so many passes because of a bad oline, coaching, wr injuries.. ect.. but marino always made it work.

But he didn't win the big one one because he didn't have a supporting cast? That's the whole point no one wins with 1 person you need a team to win championships.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
But he didn't win the big one one because he didn't have a supporting cast? That's the whole point no one wins with 1 person you need a team to win championships.

i understand that.. but he was great every year.. his individual performance.. he didnt lose games for his team.. his team lost games for him.

how many years did marino have more turnovers than tds? despite being on some horrible teams and never having a good rb. he didnt make excuses and shoulder the blame, because it was never his fault, which was obvious by his numbers.

[chernobylwraiths]

Originally posted by Tatonka


i understand that.. but he was great every year.. his individual performance.. he didnt lose games for his team.. his team lost games for him.

how many years did marino have more turnovers than tds? despite being on some horrible teams and never having a good rb. he didnt make excuses and shoulder the blame, because it was never his fault, which was obvious by his numbers.

I see your point, but nobody is putting Bledsoe in the class of the all time greats. Guys whose mere pressence helps wins games. It doesn't however mean that he isn't a very good QB. A player can play his entire career and have the ability to be truely special, but if he isn't put in the right circumstances, nobody will every think that they are very special. It's like, just imagine if the Bills never decided to throw the ball to Thurman Thomas. What if the offensive gameplan only had him run the ball? Do you think we would think of him as being as special as he was? Or what if Lawrence Taylor wasn't allowed to rush the passer and was only allowed to cover TEs and backs out of the backfield. Sure he would have still been good, but would he have been as special?

[LtBillsFan66]

I like Drew very much. I always have. :up:

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
i understand that.. but he was great every year.. his individual performance.. he didnt lose games for his team.. his team lost games for him.

how many years did marino have more turnovers than tds? despite being on some horrible teams and never having a good rb. he didnt make excuses and shoulder the blame, because it was never his fault, which was obvious by his numbers.

Marino had 1 in 1999 and almost another one in 89 he had 24 Td's and 22 Int's. Dan Marino never took blame? Nobody is perfect I bet someone could find some mistakes of Marino. I am not tryign to compare Drew to Dan I'm just saying you do need a supporting cast and that includes a solid defense and offense. Why is it wrong to want Bledsoe to have more weapons with either a RB or WR and an o-line?

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Marino had 1 in 1999 and almost another one in 89 he had 24 Td's and 22 Int's. Dan Marino never took blame? Nobody is perfect I bet someone could find some mistakes of Marino. I am not tryign to compare Drew to Dan I'm just saying you do need a supporting cast and that includes a solid defense and offense. Why is it wrong to want Bledsoe to have more weapons with either a RB or WR and an o-line?


you cant even count his 99 season.. he was so far past done at that point.. there is nothing wrong with wanting to get bledsoe weapons.. but i have a problem with the fact that he performs like total dog **** if he doesnt have a top notch cast around him.. sure.. bledsoe is great if he has a great oline, perfect coaching, great wrs, and an unstopable running game.. but so are 99.9% of the qbs that are on any nfl roster.. bledsoe is no superstar.. he is nothing better than an average qb, imho.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
you cant even count his 99 season.. he was so far past done at that point.. there is nothing wrong with wanting to get bledsoe weapons.. but i have a problem with the fact that he performs like total dog **** if he doesnt have a top notch cast around him.. sure.. bledsoe is great if he has a great oline, perfect coaching, great wrs, and an unstopable running game.. but so are 99.9% of the qbs that are on any nfl roster.. bledsoe is no superstar.. he is nothing better than an average qb, imho.

Bledsoe hasn't had all that either. Every team is lookign for that perfect combination and that wins superbowls not specific players. Hopefully our missing piece is coaching.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Bledsoe hasn't had all that either. Every team is lookign for that perfect combination and that wins superbowls not specific players. Hopefully are missing piece is coaching.

i hope your right.

i am not quite as down on the oline as some are.. and everyone and their brother, including drew, said that reed will be awesome back in the slot, which is also where shaw works best.. so our top 4 receivers are as good as any.. who has a 4th wr that had 800 yards the previous season? and if WM is as good as advertised, then there is no reason to think bledsoe should play bad. all he has to do is manage a game.. and not lose it.. sounds simple enough.

[Halbert]

I got to this thread late.

I'll again agree with everything Dozer wrote.

I will add that given the enormous reduction in salary, Bledsoe only has to perform at a reasonably solid level to provide value. In other words, the bar has been lowered. If the Bills wisely apply his cap savings they can strengthen another area of the team. Now Bledsoe can perform at a "care-taker" level and be considered good value.

I'd say the chances of him accomplishing that are excellent. So yes if he flops again for almost any reason I'd say he's out of excuses, then it would be Buh-bye.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Halbert
I got to this thread late.

I'll again agree with everything Dozer wrote.

I will add that given the enormous reduction in salary, Bledsoe only has to perform at a reasonably solid level to provide value. In other words, the bar has been lowered. If the Bills wisely apply his cap savings they can strengthen another area of the team. Now Bledsoe can perform at a "care-taker" level and be considered good value.

I'd say the chances of him accomplishing that are excellent. So yes if he flops again for almost any reason I'd say he's out of excuses, then it would be Buh-bye.

As usual, I'll a gree to what Halbert wrote unconditionally. Even the psychotic post -draft rant.....

[Halbert]

Now I'm giving up Mighty Taco, Spyro Gyra, and Rick James.

*****.

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by Tatonka



you cant even count his 99 season.. he was so far past done at that point.. there is nothing wrong with wanting to get bledsoe weapons.. but i have a problem with the fact that he performs like total dog **** if he doesnt have a top notch cast around him.. sure.. bledsoe is great if he has a great oline, perfect coaching, great wrs, and an unstopable running game.. but so are 99.9% of the qbs that are on any nfl roster.. bledsoe is no superstar.. he is nothing better than an average qb, imho.

:10:

Totally agree. If you give almost any average NFL QB time and weapons he will pick you apart. That's a given. So yeah, you can win with that approach by getting a Delhomme-Dilfer type QB and then surrounding him with a great team. But that means owning up to the fact that your QB is nothing special and that you pay him accordingly.

And as for the blame game.... f**k up once, I blame the player. F**k up twice, I blame the GM. It's the GMs responsibiltiy to correct mistakes and problems. So if Drew s**ts the bed again, it's all on TD.

[caveboy]

Key IMO is what Tatonka said about planets lining up, if ALL conditions are right: great O-line play, receivers getting open, solid game plan that balances run with pass, etc., then Drew can hopefully achieve his first-year here success.

But that could be said for a lot of QBs in the league. I do believe that great QBs can still lead their team to wins in SPITE of poor performance in most of those categories. (If a team sucks in all areas, then not even Joe Montana could help.)

Vick can make things happen with his feet and arm even if their WR corps wasn't the best, or their line sucked. Favre could lead GB to wins on attitude alone. Unfortuately, Drew is a QB that needs most everything to go right in order for him to be successful.

One thing I am not totally comfortable with is that we only picked 1 OL and 1 DL in the draft. If this O-line plays as un-disciplined as it did last year, forget Moulds, Reed, Shaw and Evans as WR corp because Drew won't have a chance to throw to them. We ran so many deep routes last year coupled with poor OL protection Drew couldn't even get rid of the ball with a 1-step drop.

This OL is not fixed and the new crop of OL gurus/coaches better address that first and formost. I'm glad MM resuurected Slash's and Maddox's careers, but he needs to address Jenning's countless drive-killing holding penalties before he can help Drew.

[pats-were-right]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
That's a good post and I understand where you are coming from. Just do me favor and name me some QBs who have success without good OL play.

How 'bout the guy who followed Drew in the '01 season. No I'm not trying to rub it in - just giving an example. Those guys didn't get good overnight.

[pats-were-right]

I see your point, but nobody is putting Bledsoe in the class of the all time greats.

I can think of a couple on this board.

[mightyspaz]

You can be a great quarterback on a bad team. You can be a bad quaterback on a great team. But a great quarterback doesn't make the team great. It takes the supporting cast to win games. Sometimes you have those few who can shine even when they sorrounded by crap, but they come once a decade, if that. Regardless of past statistics because (numbers are only numbers), Drew had a bad season. Some people blame coaching, some people blame line, some people blame drew. It's a common plaite around the league. I'm just saying that every situation is different. It's really hard to sit and find a formula of a what a great quarterback is and how he affects a team.
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah !

[Tatonka]

i am going to go out on a limb here.. and i know that i am in the minority.. but i feel like our oline can be great. i know that sound homeristic, but i really dont feel that it is.. and i will explain. i also know that i was for grabbing grove or carey in the draft.. but you always want to add more good players.. regardless.. this is how i see it.

jennings - good lt.. not the best, but definately above average

sullivan - i have always felt that it was a tragedy to see him benched last year. i think he will end up being an upgrade over rubens play over the last year. he is the guy that i think mcnally will be able to help the most.

teague - bottom line is he is an average center, but if he has quality playing on his left and right, he may even be above average. another guy who has only been at his position for 2 years.. i look for mcnally to improve his play as well as another year of experience.

villarrial - a huge improvement over pucillo. no question there.

williams - a guy with unlimited potential who has been dominant at times and subpar at others. again.. mcnally will help.

our backups of price at tackle and tucker at guard is fine with me.. price has played at a starting level, and tucker played well enough for 5 games last year. sobieski at back up center is completely unknown.

the front office obviously has a good amount of trust in the guys we have here. that is obvious by their lack of interest in anyone other than bobbie williams since signing villarrial. i feel that we are as good if not better at every position on the line. and the new oline coach only adds to that, imho.

people forget that in 2002, this is almost the identical line (trade ruben for sully, and sully for villarrial) that everyone and their brother was saying could be one of the best up and coming lines in the nfl.

i dont think the oline will be an issue.. even if we miss a few man games due to injury.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by mightyspaz
You can be a great quarterback on a bad team. You can be a bad quaterback on a great team. But a great quarterback doesn't make the team great. !

great quote.

[illusionone]

Not that you care what I think, but this was a very classy post. It was very ovjective and finally we get some overall team support.

We should be divided Drew - Haters/Lovers, we should be Bills Fans.

I too hope Drew bounces back this year, I want one of the Good Guys to win a championship for a chance.

Anyway, Good Post and hopefully we see more off this kind of post rather than the latter.

illusionone

BTW, some ***** earlier in the week, posted that he DID want Drew Bledsoe in a car accident, so he couldn't play next year.....I feel there should have been more outrage from members of this web site for mean spirited comments such as those.






Originally posted by Tatonka
What Drew did (assuming all the posts about him dropping his salary down to 3.5 million dollars a year) was a very decent and team oriented thing to do.

I will be the first to admit, when drew has all day in the pocket, he can be a great qb. now that should be the case for every qb in the nfl, but i know it to be a fact with drew.. i have seen it. if you give him time, he can do fairly well.

You guys get so wrapped up in the "drew hater" **** like Fairway, Draftboy, or myself actually want the guy dead or something, which is far from the truth. I simply dont want him as our qb, but i will root for him just the same.

With the current situation, again, assuming that the initial reports on Drew's salary has been cut and not just moved around, we should have the money to make a move to resign schobel and maybe jennings. that would be a big deal for this franchise. I can say that i like the fact that Drew did this, because he is respected by the players, and hopefully others will follow suit. He is obviously finacially set for life, and as he stated himself.. money doesnt mean a whole lot.. winning does.

I hope he is able to put together a good season, and the coaches dont rely on him to win games, by letting Henry and McGahee pound the rock all year. Drew could be good in that kind of scenario, throwing the ball over peoples heads while they are staring at our RBs on the playfake.

I hope we use this extra money to maybe add just one more stud on the oline and use all the rest to resign our three big FA's next year (Patt williams, Schobel, and Jennings).

So, kudo's to Drew for helping the team out and here is to a good season for him.

:cheers:


:gobills:

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by caveboy
Key IMO is what Tatonka said about planets lining up, if ALL conditions are right: great O-line play, receivers getting open, solid game plan that balances run with pass, etc., then Drew can hopefully achieve his first-year here success.

When I said the "alignment of planets" last month, Phil had a nice time ripping me about it. ;)

But yes, that "luck factor" is huge. So many things have to align just the right way for a team to go all the way. You can't predict it by what's on paper.

[saviorbledsoe]

Originally posted by Tatonka


let me ask you something, now that we are all on the same page.

Our wrs are loaded. our rbs are more than loaded. we have a good te, and added 2 more good ones. villarrial has replaced pucillo. sullivan has replaced ruben.. we have the best oline coach in the league.. our defense should stay top 10 if not better.

so my quesitons are..

1) does drew have any excuses for this year?

2) if he ends up with more turnovers than touchdowns.. then what?

3) If he ends up playing around 2003's level, how much blame to you put on the coaches for thinking they could change him, and TD for keeping him around?

i would like to hear from savior and others on this. dont start slinging ****.. just answer the two questions.

Im honored to be the leader of the Pro Drew crowd :)

1. NO he does NOT have any exuses this year. (if what has been said is followed ie. having a run first offense)

2. If he sucks this year than hello JP towards the end of this season.

3. is irrelevant. No one is all knowing.

[illusionone]

I followed Drew from the Patriots to the Bills and I will say this...If Drew sucks this year with all of the above being true, then he has no excuse and probably will never start another season as a QB (he may end up in a back -up role or retire)



Originally posted by Tatonka
let me ask you something, now that we are all on the same page.

Our wrs are loaded. our rbs are more than loaded. we have a good te, and added 2 more good ones. villarrial has replaced pucillo. sullivan has replaced ruben.. we have the best oline coach in the league.. our defense should stay top 10 if not better.

so my quesitons are..

1) does drew have any excuses for this year?

2) if he ends up with more turnovers than touchdowns.. then what?

3) If he ends up playing around 2003's level, how much blame to you put on the coaches for thinking they could change him, and TD for keeping him around?

i would like to hear from savior and others on this. dont start slinging ****.. just answer the two questions.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by illusionone
Not that you care what I think, but this was a very classy post. It was very ovjective and finally we get some overall team support.

We should be divided Drew - Haters/Lovers, we should be Bills Fans.

I too hope Drew bounces back this year, I want one of the Good Guys to win a championship for a chance.

Anyway, Good Post and hopefully we see more off this kind of post rather than the latter.

illusionone

BTW, some ***** earlier in the week, posted that he DID want Drew Bledsoe in a car accident, so he couldn't play next year.....I feel there should have been more outrage from members of this web site for mean spirited comments such as those.

thanks.. and the guy that said he wanted bledsoe to get hurt got reamed pretty hard and his post was moved immediately. your right.. one of the outright worst posts i have ever seen.


Originally posted by Mr. Cynical
Phil had a nice time ripping me about it. ;)



its not that hard. :snicker:


:jk:

[saviorbledsoe]

Originally posted by illusionone
Not that you care what I think, but this was a very classy post. It was very ovjective and finally we get some overall team support.

We should be divided Drew - Haters/Lovers, we should be Bills
BTW, some ***** earlier in the week, posted that he DID want Drew Bledsoe in a car accident, so he couldn't play next year.....I feel there should have been more outrage from members of this web site for mean spirited comments such as those.







I was just kind of speechless about that and didnt even chime in but yeah that was rediculous. I wouldnt even wish that on Rob Johnson. Even though he only would need a bicycle accident to put him on the IR :)

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by saviorbledsoe
Im honored to be the leader of the Pro Drew crowd :)

1. NO he does NOT have any exuses this year. (if what has been said is followed ie. having a run first offense)

2. If he sucks this year than hello JP towards the end of this season.

3. is irrelevant. No one is all knowing.

good to hear savior. i agree with the first two.


Originally posted by illusionone
I followed Drew from the Patriots to the Bills and I will say this...If Drew sucks this year with all of the above being true, then he has no excuse and probably will never start another season as a QB (he may end up in a back -up role or retire)

he would retire before becoming a back up.

[illusionone]

Thats funny about RJ...LOL


Originally posted by saviorbledsoe
I was just kind of speechless about that and didnt even chime in but yeah that was rediculous. I wouldnt even wish that on Rob Johnson. Even though he only would need a bicycle accident to put him on the IR :)

[DraftBoy]

1. No
2. Bye Bye
3. No

Quick Simple and Easy, and also I agree T with your assessment of our OL. If we could just get a better OC Id be elated.

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by Tatonka
i am going to go out on a limb here.. and i know that i am in the minority.. but i feel like our oline can be great. i know that sound homeristic, but i really dont feel that it is.. and i will explain. i also know that i was for grabbing grove or carey in the draft.. but you always want to add more good players.. regardless.. this is how i see it.

jennings - good lt.. not the best, but definately above average

sullivan - i have always felt that it was a tragedy to see him benched last year. i think he will end up being an upgrade over rubens play over the last year. he is the guy that i think mcnally will be able to help the most.

teague - bottom line is he is an average center, but if he has quality playing on his left and right, he may even be above average. another guy who has only been at his position for 2 years.. i look for mcnally to improve his play as well as another year of experience.

villarrial - a huge improvement over pucillo. no question there.

williams - a guy with unlimited potential who has been dominant at times and subpar at others. again.. mcnally will help.

our backups of price at tackle and tucker at guard is fine with me.. price has played at a starting level, and tucker played well enough for 5 games last year. sobieski at back up center is completely unknown.

the front office obviously has a good amount of trust in the guys we have here. that is obvious by their lack of interest in anyone other than bobbie williams since signing villarrial. i feel that we are as good if not better at every position on the line. and the new oline coach only adds to that, imho.

people forget that in 2002, this is almost the identical line (trade ruben for sully, and sully for villarrial) that everyone and their brother was saying could be one of the best up and coming lines in the nfl.

i dont think the oline will be an issue.. even if we miss a few man games due to injury.


Very good assessment of the OL. The key will be McNally getting some of the guys like Mike, Sully, and Teague to raise their games. I also think that just simplifying the blocking schemes will help too.

If the OL plays well with the weapons we now have WR and RB, Bledsoe should bounce back from his poor year last season. I hope.